Do purists really exist?

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 01:56 PM

701. Maths was always a problem even when I was teaching it!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 02:42 PM

"We all knew 'Ewan & Peggy' would get in on it eventually!"
Oh dear, not another bout of necrophobia
Why not, as they were to of the greatest contributors to folk song in Britain
May as well quote Ewan here as you all seem too shit scared to discuss his ideas
Ewan and Pegg were sacrificing a night a week to singers requesting help while most of the people who are still digging Ewan up for a ritual kicking 30 years after his death

One of the sure signs that something is rotten in the State of folkland is the fact that discussing 'what is folk' is a no-go area on this form and whenever two of folks great performers and songwriters are mentioned all present reach for the crucifix and garlic
What is wrong with you people ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 02:52 PM

Should read
"while most of the people who are still digging Ewan up for a ritual kicking 30 years after his death were getting on with their careers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 03:00 PM

It was not a singers night observer. It had the traits in that someone went round asking if anyone wanted to do a bit but when someone started a tune a lot of people joined in. More like a session but with spots for solo artists if they wanted them.

Jim. We will just have to disagree. There are, according to the link I gave, 160 folk clubs. If you include venues such as mentioned earlier, there are probably double that regularly showcasing folk music. My experience has been that the majority is good quality with a minority of either poor performances or inappropriate music. I am equally sure that there are some where the quality is poorer than the ones I know are good. At those I know you would not be disappointed in the slightest.

The best way I can thinks of to prove it to you is not by conflict but with the hand of friendship. Book yourself a flight to Leeds one Friday. It is peanuts now. I shall pick you up and take you to the Keighley club. Stop over at ours for the weekend, all on me. We shall find something going on in the Leeds/Bradford area and I will drive. Have the other weekend day off for a tour round the dales. Monday I shall take you to the Skipton club. Tuesday I will take you to the airport for your return flight.

One of two things will happen. You will either see that the folk scene is still vibrant or you will prove that my definition of folk music leaves a lot to be desired! I am pretty sure it will be the former and you will enjoy what you see and hear.

What have you got to lose?

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 05:15 PM

Very generous offer, Dave. If that doesn't work you could go that bit further to the Sheffield area hotbed which has oodles of talented youngsters playing folk music, and they know their stuff as well.

The folk scene in England at the moment is certainly vibrant, probably moreso than when we old farts were at it in the 60s, it's just more diverse and doesn't necessarily follow the rigid patterns set up in the 60s. Any current setbacks are definitely down to the economic climate, and not a lack of interest.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 05:31 PM

There are also a lot more singarounds and sessions than there were in the 60s.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Andy7
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 06:46 PM

If I were at a folk club singaround where certain contributors on this thread were present, and I had carefully prepared a performance of one of the most indisputably traditional folk songs in the country, which I'd learned and practised to within an inch of perfection, I'd probably still be too scared to sing it when my moment came ... just in case my interpretation of the song was historically inaccurate, and I ruined it for everyone there! ;-)

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 04:04 AM

Andy you do not seem to understand what i am saying,1. there are a number of contributory reasons for folk clubs closing ,2 you do not seem to understand Iam only asking that people to try to do their best perfomance which means respect for the audience practising, if i was present at the same club as you i would not offer any opinion unless you asked me, i certainly would not comment on any historical inaccuracys, furthermore there is no such thing as a perfrmance being historically inaccurate, tradtional music has to evolve and change, i may not like your perfomance or style, but , i would not comment unless you asked me

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Andy7
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 04:24 AM

Those are fair points.

My post was meant to be a lighthearted one! Because the mood of this discussion has been rather too dark at times; we should all be able to hold differing views, and have a lively discussion, without being negative/aggressive towards the views of others.

Okay, then ... I'll have a bash at that traditional folk song after all ... "The moon is up, the spirit's bright, we're here tonight, and that's enough, simply having ..."

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 04:28 AM

I like the one that begins 'Iiiiiitttsss Chriiiissstttmaaaaasss' better :-)

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 04:29 AM

"just in case my interpretation of the song was historically inaccurate"
Do you have friends who insist on that sort of thing Andy - I've never known anybody who did
I find dishonest comments like that a confirmation of my arguments
No-one in my half century's involvement in folk song has ever demaned either historical or stylistic "accuracy" in folk song - both would be an impossible objective anyway - theer is no such thing as "historical accuracy"
Why make something up like that ?

This is a strange and extremely depressing argument
On the one hand, Dick has insisted that I have no right to comment on the scene because I don't go to enough of them; on the other; on the other, people, particularly Dave says that the scene is exactly as I describe and I have no right to expect anything else becuse it "has moved on".

I did a tour around what's available on line (including some that have been recommended to me) and found little, if anything that resembles a healthy folk scene - a lot of the writers of insipid songs, largely over-accompanied enough to make the words unfollowable and invariable, sung in a stange, Mid-Atlantic accent
A few exceptions, but not enough to make me believe things are going to improve in the near future

I no longer live in Britain and I know I can look forward to a folk scene that with continue to thrive
I can listen to good traditional music and song, well excecuted, on the media any night of the week - mainly played by new musicians in their late teens and twenties (singing has a little way to go yet, but there are signs that it's getting there)
This one-street town in the west has six nights of live traditional music - some nights have a couple of sessions going at the same time.
That in itself is a leap forward, usually the number of nights reduce to three after the visitors have stopped coming

What upsets me most about all this (and the animosity and dishonesty it arouses) is, it doesn't effect me personally - our collection has found a welcoming home which will guarantee that, long after we've turned up our toes, people will be able to listen to Walter Pardon and Harry Cox and Sam Larner, the Stewarts, The Travellers.... and many others we met or were given recordings of, singing and talking about their love of folk song proper
It's just a pity that those recordings will be housed in Limerick rather than London as the UK has no home for what they have to say and sing - and the clubs are apparently not interested anyway

MacColl was touched on again here, but thankfully not to the length of brutality he usually receives
   
I'd just like to restate my position on MacColl
I loved his singing _ I still do after half a century of listening to it
That has nothing to do with why I'm happy to raise his name and ideas whenever I have the opportunity - that's my personal taste - I can still get most of the albums he recorded over his long career - in the shops in newly issued anthologies or sing albums or on the Net, which say much about how he is still regarded outside the narrow, backbiting sonfines of the revival

MacColl thought folk song so important that he devoted a large part of his life trying to help and encourage other singers
The work he and The Critics Group did on the theory and practice of folk singing is totally unparalleled - the voice, singing and relaxation exercises, the evenings of analysis and suggestion on how to improve styles and understanding, the discussions on the cultural and historical importance of song..... a gold mine, recorded at length and ready to be worked.
Unfortunately, there is no home for that in a U.K. that could very much do with a firm kick up the arse of the culture and Voice of THe People is to survive for future generations to take as much pleasure from it as we did.

I once wrote a somewhat hostilely received aticle entitled "Where Have all the Folk Songs Gone" for 'The Living Tradition'
I have my answer - they got lost somewhere along the way and didn't go anywhere much
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Andy7
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 04:40 AM

Haha, you've beaten me into submission, Jim!

I'm off out of here now, to start up a new thread entitled "What is folk music?" :-)

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 04:49 AM

""What is folk music?" :-)"
Good luck with they=t one Andy ! :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 04:52 AM

Purist means bore from my experience.

Sad buggers who won't go in a pub unless they serve "real" ale, waffle on about a 1954 definition of an abstract form of entertainment and reckon the only words to Sir Patrick Spence that count are the ones they first heard, normally on their mother's knee (allegedly).

Would you care to put a name and a face to such a person?

People who get off on having entirely imaginary enemies are a pain in the arse.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,21st Century Primitive
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 05:03 AM

A word on that there Ewan McColl, as his name has come up in this thread.

I’m not particularly interested in the ins and outs of the dog’s bollocks about the minutiae (sp?) of his life and so on, but I do know this. He was one of the best songwriters these islands have ever produced. Some of the more narrowly political songs may have dated - but that’s ok, they were capturing and responding to a moment in time - but anyone capable of creating songs like ‘The Father’s Song’, ‘The Manchester Rambler’ and ‘Dirty Old Town’ has fully earned their place in musical history.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 05:16 AM

So, I take it you will not take me up on the offer then, Jim?

Well, you can take a horse to water...

BTW - exactly how do you describe the 'scene'? I need to know if I am to confirm or deny it!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 05:42 AM

"Purist means bore from my experience."
Idiots who use meaningless terms as invective are idiots in my experience Jack
People who opt for hit-and-run invective rather than argument ate little more than trolls
Not a case of "real ale" - just serving ale does the trick
You are as dishonest as the most dishonest
Pity
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 05:44 AM

"So, I take it you will not take me up on the offer then, Jim?"
What was your offer Dave - missed it in the melee
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 05:53 AM

Just up a bit, Jim.

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 03:00 PM

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 05:56 AM

"Purist means bore from my experience."
Idiots who use meaningless terms as invective are idiots in my experience Jack
People who opt for hit-and-run invective rather than argument ate little more than trolls
Not a case of "real ale" - just serving ale does the trick
You are as dishonest as the most dishonest

I didn't write the bit you put in quotes. And unlike you I make it VERY clear what I'm quoting (to any well-intentioned reader, that is - can't do much about bigoted liars determined to misread plainly obvious statements in the most paranoic and malicious way imaginable).

You've now done the same completely blatant sort of misinterpretation twice in 24 hours, once to Dave and now to me.

Subject: RE: Do puriis both sts really exist?
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 06:17 AM

It was a generous offer from Dave to you Jim Carroll and your self-expressed ignorance of it is both extremely rude and an indication of how much attention you pay to the comments and opinions of other contributors.
You spend your days insulting perfectly reasonable people with perfectly reasonable and constructive views while NOT READING what they have said!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 06:53 AM

"I didn't write the bit you put in quote"
My apologies - cnfused by the italics
I always try to use quotation marks - may miss them occasionally
Don't understand the rest, but I;'m sure you won't or can't clarify it
I insult nobody - I respond to what they say strongly maybe, but that' it
You have twice misrepresented what I believe - about my not believing what is happening in Glasgow and Edinburgh - I see no apology for doing so, which leads me to believe that your misinterpretation was deliberate
"I take it this is the sort of thing Jim doesn't believe exists?"

Sorry Dave
I did miss your offer
In the light of what is beig argued for here, what exactly would a visit to a couple of clubs in Yorkshire prove (as much as I am sure I would enjoy the visit, and the clubs (I love the area anyway)?
I have no doubt good, dedicated clubs still exist - I have named some myself
As with Edinburgh and Glasgow a good healthy folk scene cannot include having to nip onto a plane or train to visit such places
The scene you and others paint is not a healthy one - it appears to be dying
It can't sustain a solid base for its archives - the EFDSS one is non existent, The BL is poor and is too impoverished to expand - the best of the lot is in Scotland...
Two of us, me and Terry Yarnell have a large archive of British and Irish traditional recordings we can't find a home for in Britain so we have to look elsewhere
A healthy folk scene that can be guaranteed a future has to have a foundation based on the music - none exists
Any future has to depend on us being able to discuss our music - as Andy intimated, any attempts to discuss the definition of folk son sinks in flames before it is started - that is a sick joke
I'm sick and tired of the small mindedness, the jealousy towards dead performers, the personal nastiness (even towards terms such as purist) and the total inability to discuss this subject seriously and intelligently
The work has been long done to push the Traditional arts a stage further yet it cannot be availed of because of this hostile barrier   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 07:05 AM

No problem, Jim. We all miss things sometimes.

I hope it would prove that the 'folk scene' is as healthy and vibrant as I and a number of other people have suggested rather than the poor quality, struggling, dying animal that you seem to be suggesting.

I am willing to be proved wrong but, to date, you have not offered any evidence that the folk music world in England is in such a poor shape.

We can all find examples of good and bad but I am willing to put my money where my mouth is and say that there is far more good than bad. All the evidence on here points to that, as does my experience.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 07:17 AM

My point remains Dave a handfull of clubs does not make for a healthy scene
I've just given you my long-term view of what I believe needs to happen to keep folk song available for the future
The state of the clubs has been displayed perfectly by the suggestion that anybody expecting to here folk songs performed reasonably well at a folk song is a purist - your really can't say clearer than that
You and others have given excuses rather than reasons why the club scene has declined - we don't agree on that, but we do seem to agree that it has declined
A basis to start an intelligent and friendly argument before Jack's insulting rudeness becomes an infection
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 08:06 AM

That is where we must differ, Jim. You believe it is a handful of clubs that maintain a good standard. I know it is a lot more than a handful and evidence both here and elsewhere confirms that this is true. There are numerous good folk clubs out there and that is bolstered by the number of other venues that are now showcasing exceptionally good traditional music.

There are of course clubs where the standard may not be as high as you would like but that is the nature of the beast. Not everything is everyone's cup of tea. But the vast majority of clubs and other venues are promoting music that is more than acceptable to the vast majority of folk music fans.

We have presented the evidence that the 'folk scene' is thriving. Feel free to give us your evidence that it is otherwise.

You have and are perfectly entitled to your opinion that the scene is either dead or dying, and the way it was deteriorating in the late 1970s and early 1980s is likely to have given that impression. But it has recovered and is now a force to be reckoned with once again. Your impression is wrong and my offer stands open for as long as you like. Feel free to pick any folk club within striking distance of Airedale and I will take you there as well so there is no question of me picking only clubs I know are good.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 08:31 AM

A healthy folk club scene has to feature a guarantee of hearing folk songs at clubs
That is not the case and, from what I have seen and what I havee read here, that is long gone - (even you have confirmed that with your village hall, concerts and festivals suggestion)
How can you possibly describe that as "healthy" ?

Thish forum has been bombarded by descriptions of hostility towards traditional and unaccompanied "finger-in-ear songs in the past - things have not improved in any way and arguments like his only confirm that situation
If you don't recognise there is a problem, that problem can only grow

The heartbeat of our tradition lay in the clubs - now it appears to be on a life-support system
Wahre are the albums of traditional songs now - where are the magazines we once had - where are the many thousands of clubs performing folk songs - where is the genuine and friendly interaction and discussion I and others experienced
We can't nip down to the village hall to get any of this

I am, at present, organising and annotating our collection in order to deposit it in an accessible form, to an Irish University World Music Center -
If I thought there was any point, I would happily put aside a smaller archive of recordings of singers, song texts, articles on traditional song and music, recordings of workshops and seminars, radio programmes, examples of voice and relaxation exercises.... and donate it to any club, or group of clubs to be used as an encouragement to learn and understand our folk-song traditions
Ive made similar offers in the past with no takers
Think about it
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 09:13 AM

A healthy folk club scene has to feature a guarantee of hearing folk songs at clubs

At the majority of folk clubs I can guarantee that the majority of songs that you hear will meet with your approval. I have put my money where my mouth is and I am sure a number of others will do the same. You have misinterpreted what a number of people have said, including me. I will try to make my argument quite clear.

The vast majority of clubs and other venues (that showcase folk music) are promoting music that is more than acceptable to the vast majority of folk music fans.

Feel free to disagree but, as yet, you have not come up with any proof of your 'anything goes' theory.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 09:29 AM

" more than acceptable to the vast majority of folk music fans"
Very carefully worded Dave
If that is music is not folk music, it makes my point - if you can show it is, feel free
I don't believe it is, and thereby hangs the problem

For the record, apart from Jack, I have insulted nobody here unless you regard criticism your clubs as "insulting (we never used to)
I should not have responded to Jack the way I did, for which I apologise - I should have ignored him

My offer will stand until I am convinced I am wasting my time
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 09:38 AM

If that is music is not folk music, it makes my point - if you can show it is, feel free
I don't believe it is, and thereby hangs the problem

Yes, I can show that it is but only by inviting you to experience it. Which I have done. Now, back at you, can you show that it isn't?

As for insulting anyone. Well, I think you made some comments that rubbed people up the wrong way and you definitely misconstrued what I said but, what the heck, water under the bridge. I pointed out where it happened. It can still be seen and people can make up their own minds. No point in flogging it to death.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 10:40 AM

"Yes, I can show that it is but only by inviting you to experience it."
You haven't so far Dave - you've said that it happens around you, which doesn't even touch what's happening in the rest of Britain
Terms like "purist" and "finger-in-ear" and the fact that we can't discuss the definition of folk song on this forum is a strong indicator that it ain't folk
You have not address my findings and the findings of others who said they waked away from a scene became as rare as Dodos and the standards abysmal
The decline in clubs, the arguments for not applying standards, the proliferation of crib-sheets as an indcation of people not bothering to learn words... and the many other examples appear to back up my case... the few you point to prove nothing really

"you definitely misconstrued what I said "
Not sure where - I definitely didn't misconstrue your saying that if I wished to be guaranteed to listen to folk songs I would have to go to festivals or concerts or village halls, which for me, sums up the whole problem
For me this shows clearly that the club scene is in need of repair
If I misconstrued anything else, it was accidental and I apologise
Unless you address the points I made other than "come to Yorkshire" this will continue to be a circular argument
I don't apologise for rubbing people up the wrong way and I doubt if they would apologise to me for doing likewise - at least, I hope not
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 10:55 AM

you've said that it happens around you, which doesn't even touch what's happening in the rest of Britain

Between 1990 and 2010 I was in a job that took me all around the country and I was lucky enough to be able to book my own accommodation. One of the main criteria for booking a particular hotel was its proximity to a folk club and a lot of the time I was successful. I was not away every week and I did have repeat visits but I estimate that I visited folk clubs all over the country at least once a month for 20 years. That is approximately 240 visits. Many of the visits were to the same folk clubs (Bracknell, Leeds and Newcastle spring to mind as receiving multiple visits) but over the course of that 20 years I can count on one hand the number of times I was disappointed.

Terms like "purist" and "finger-in-ear"

Terms that I have never used in earnest. Take that up with someone else.

You have not address my findings and the findings of others who said they waked away from a scene became as rare as Dodos and the standards abysmal

Yes I have. See above. I fully accept that standards have slipped in some instances but can assure you that it is a rare occurrence rather than the norm. It is mentioned more because it is rare. Things going well do not make the news. Things going badly do.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 10:59 AM

I should also add that you have not named any of the plethora of 'bad' clubs so I can visit and judge for myself. I have at least given at least half a dozen examples of folk clubs where you will get exactly what you are looking for in a folk club.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 11:38 AM

"Terms that I have never used in earnest. Take that up with someone else."
Sorry Dave, can't do that, it's far too common (go look at the title of the thread)
You are the last person I want to fall out with

I can't argue with your own experience any more than you can argue with mine
Are you really claiming that the club scene plummeted and then revived
Are you also claiming that those of u who had enough bad experiences to wak away didn't have those experiences

I have given you what I expect from a folk club and believe no longer to be available in enough for the music to survive - I have also made a pointy about archives, access to archives, publications, albums... and all the other things that go to make a healthy scene, none of which you have responded to

I said at the beginning that all I expected from a club was a night of folk songs reasonably sung - you told me I could no longer expect that from a club and would have to go elsewhere; now you appear to be saying that I can get if anywhere in Britain
If that's not what you are saying you need to explain your "village hall" etc reference
Unless you do we have nothing more to say to each other on the subject sadly
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 01:06 PM

Not sure why you brought up those terms in reference to me then, Jim, but if you were not suggesting I had used them then fairy nuff.

I'm not claiming that the club scene plummeted and then revived. That claim was the result of an investigation reported in the link I posted. Remember?

The number of clubs began to decline in the 1980s, in the face of changing musical and social trends. In London Les Cousins in Greek Street, where John Renbourn often played, and The Scots Hoose in Cambridge Circus, were both casualties. The Singers Club (George IV, Lincoln's Inn) closed its doors in 1993.

The decline began to stabilise in the mid-1990s with the resurgence of interest in folk music and there are now over 160 folk clubs in the United Kingdom, including many that can trace their origins back to the 1950s

I am not claiming that people who had bad experiences are telling lies. I have had a handful of bad experiences and said as much. It is just that they are not common. Remember the old adage? Get good service, you tell no one. Get bad service, you tell everyone.

I am not discussing any other aspect but live folk music. It is all I know about. I don't know enough about the academic research to comment.

The point you make about going elsewhere is where you misconstrued what I said. I was going to let it lie but seeing as you have brought it up, again, here is my exact phrease.

People can still go to folk clubs to hear 'folk songs reasonably well performed'. They can also go to concert halls, village halls, community centres, festivals, pubs, house parties, and any number of venues where they can hear the same.

Nowhere in there can it be interpretted that you cannot get good music at folk clubs. The exact reverse is the case. The concerts at other venue are not instead of, they are as well as.

One thing we can agree on though. There is no point in continuing down this route. It is what gets threads closed. I am trying to say that there is a lot of good in the folk scene as it stands. You are resolutely saying it is rubbish. Those two viewpoints can seemingly never be reconciled.

Maybe I am too easily pleased? At least that makes for a much more enjoyable life than looking for fault in everything. The offer of accomodation and chaufeur services still stands and I look forward to welcoming you one day and showing you the high spots of the Aire valley :-D

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 01:14 PM

...and you have still not named any of the so called bad clubs so I can see for myself :-( This responding to points is not a one way street you know!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 02:46 PM

"That claim was the result of an investigation reported in the link I posted. Remember?"
The wiki ling that couldn't distinguish between Dylan, soft rock singer songwriters and the real thing, you mean
That's not a survey - it's a claim built on non-definition ignorance
"and you have still not named any of the so called bad clubs so I can see for myself :"
No I haven't nor will I - I have no intention of going to war with individual clubs
"I have had a handful of bad experiences and said as much."
I'm not basing my claims not only on the experionce of thousands of us who walked away and the arguments we have had here about "purists", "finger in ear" and your owwn statement about going to look for folk in village halls (Still not explained)
"People can still go to folk clubs to hear 'folk songs reasonably well performed'."
Didn't say they couldn't, but the ones being pointed out are in Yorkshire, Scotland and Sussex
Rudeness and abuse gets threads closed - I have indulged in neither - tell those who have

I have responded to every point made - the only club I mentioned as bad (and the only one I intend to) is the mess that calls itself a folk club in THE HEADQUARTERS OF THE ENGLISH FOLK DANCE AND SONG SOCIETY
If they can't get it right - who can ?
The don't even have a shop - now that's a sign that things aren't well, if anything is
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 02:56 PM

Do you really expect anyone to name "bad clubs", Dave ? Really ?
I would expect that you and Jim are both right, there are clubs with a consistently high standard of performance, and the opposite. It's largely a question of how many there are of the former compared to the latter, and that figure will undoubtedly vary from person to person. It would also depend on the standard of performance a person is satisfied with.
We're over 700 posts here now, and seem to have drifted from the original question. I think I'll stop now, better things to do. There's a really good set-dance, recorded by Angelina Carberry and Dan Brouder I must learn. Enjoy your music.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 03:48 PM

Jim. your owwn statement about going to look for folk in village halls (Still not explained)

It was explained in my previous post. In case you missed it, again, here it is.

"People can still go to folk clubs to hear 'folk songs reasonably well performed'. They can also go to concert halls, village halls, community centres, festivals, pubs, house parties, and any number of venues where they can hear the same.

Nowhere in there can it be interpreted that you cannot get good music at folk clubs. The exact reverse is the case. The concerts at other venue are not instead of, they are as well as. "

I don't know how I can make it any plainer.

Kenny. You are right of course. There is good and bad in everything. I accept that there is some bad but do not think there is a lot. I think Jim has to accept that there is some good but thinks there is not a lot of that. To put this in perspective we have had umpteen accounts of good folk clubs with plenty of evidence to back that up. We have had very few people saying things are bad and there has been no evidence to back that up at all. What are we to believe? The many who say things are fine, backed up by the media and hard evidence? Or those who say things are shite but will not back up that statement with any facts whatsoever?

I know where my vote goes!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 05:18 PM

'It can't sustain a solid base for its archives - the EFDSS one is non existent,' JC.

Really? You mean you've never looked at VWML online? I don't believe you!

Apology, please!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 06:32 PM

Blimey, reading this thread I'm glad I'm just a harmonica player. Wanna hear a nice set of polkas?

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 06:58 PM

AS WELL AS......AS WELL AS.....AS WELL AS......AS WELL AS......AS WELL AS............

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 06:59 PM

In case you missed it...AS WELL AS!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 07:10 PM

I purify, therefore I am.

There you are, a little Cartesian logic sorts us all out.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Dec 18 - 02:53 AM

"Really? You mean you've never looked at VWML online? I don't believe you!"
I am well aware that at long last (how long has it been going?) EFDSS have made accessible its holdings
I am referring to the club evenings we attended thare
No apology forthcoming

""People can still go to folk clubs to hear 'folk songs reasonably well performed'. "
And \I respnded and have done over and over again
Tare are not enough of them to make a future for folk song viable and there never will be while people consider that to take folk song seriously is "purist" and believe serious argument to be insulting
The development of both of these tendencies can be traced on this forum through terms like finger-in-ear and the particularly deplorable "folk fascist"

It all boild down to what you consider is a "folk club" and "a good folk club"
For me a folk club is a place where you are guaranteed to hear folk songs, a good one is where you can hear folk songs performed well enough to be enjoyed without worrying that the singer is in tune or has remembered the words or is involved in what hie or she is singing
I stopped when all this ceased to be the case and what has gone on here has convinced me that little has changed.

I don't want to have to send scouts ahead to find if a folk club does folk songs, but that's the case now and has been for a long time
People on this forum in the past have argued here for poor standards, suggesting that to demand work and a degree of understanding and dedication is "elitist"
We've had threads arguing for the use of crib-sheets and mobile phones, saying that to oppose them is to put of people is to exclude people - which, in my opinion, patronised the singer and insults the audience
The 'anything goes" approach is highly supported, which assumes that anybody who wanted to listen to 'Lord Gregory' is going to be happy to sit through to 'Livin' Doll' or the 'Birdie Song'   
On this latter, some time ago I was taken to a convert of folk songs in Scotland by a friend -n the whole a highly enjoyable night until the star singer, whose singing I have always admired decided to finish the evening with two Cliff Richard songs
I can never remember feeling so let down - while I remember clearly what she finished the evening on, I cannot for the life of me remember what else was sung that night.

Despite the latest desk-jockey revisionism, our folk songs are unique - they stand apart form all other song forms as artistic creations and pieces of our social history and, because they do, they are as important as Shakespeare or Dickens or Haydn or Bechet... and that's what makes them both important and highly enjoyable if you take the time and trouble to listen
If people haven't the time or inclination to thumb through the bools and manuscripts clearly labeled "folk" or "traditional", they can recognise the uniqueness of folk song by comparing it to other forms
None of this is a criticism of the other forms - I happen to like song of them myself.
If I choose to go out to hear any form of music - folk, jazz, blues, opera, swing.... I expect to be given what I am told I am going to get         
My own interests developed among people who fervently believed that folk forms could be used to create a new repertoire - that is still my position, but I respect those who want to listen to those who just choose to listen to folk songs on a night out and would be happy to join them occasionally - that may be 'purist' to some, but it's certainly not "boring", as has been suggested.   

For me, and apparently for many others, the club scene plummeted when clubs removed the right of people to choose what they want ed to listen to and decided that standards of performance weren't necessary.
As a singer, I began to feel self-conscious that many of my songs didn't fit into evenings were I was able to sing - the number of venues where this wasn't the case got less and less so I and many like me stopped going
Nothing I have seen here has persuaded me that that has improved in any way, or not enough to make a difference

Finished here, I think - I have a load of work on folk song to get through while my memory and hearing holds out - I think I have got all I'm going to get

Once again I find it very telling that nobody has shown the slightest interest in acquiring our recordings
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Dec 18 - 03:39 AM

I'm afraid there has been a blurring of the parameters of art.

A lot of it has to do us becoming part of an international community. There are universities in some countries where Agatha Christie is considered a cultural heavyweight like Dickens. Its been coming on for fifty or sixty years. Byron, for example, whom we regard in our more generous moments as a second echelon romantic poet, in France - he is rated far above the rest of the boys in the band - Shelley, Wordsworth, Coleridge.

We've got used to the idea.

If John Williams, after a lifetime of selfless dedication, can not just countenance , but welcome the democratisarion of guitar playing. It tells us something about the nature of the world we live in.

We don't appear to be folksingers. But we are. In three hundred years our communities will doubtless look as fucked up and brainless as when we watch The Tudors. We may not bang on goatskins and record our stories in thirty verse ballads - but we are of our time. Why wouldn't we use ipads for our folk music. Ipads are more integral to our communities than bloody goats.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 18 - 03:49 AM

I remember clearly what she finished the evening on, I cannot for the life of me remember what else was sung that night.

Thanks for confirming my point, Jim. People talk about and remember the bad while keeping quiet and forgetting about the good. The last 2 songs out of, what, 30? soured your evening. It is a shame it happened to you but think about it. 2 songs out of 30 is less than 7%. So 93% of the songs could well have been what you expected. I call 93% a great majority. I can go to a concert or buy an album of someone I really like and there will be some songs I am not keen on. Maybe I am just lucky in being a glass half full instead of a glass half empty person.I

I do sympathise with your view, honestly, and it is a shame that you feel let down. But if over 90% of songs sung are good, I see that as a win!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Dec 18 - 04:09 AM

"People talk about and remember the bad while keeping quiet and forgetting about the good"
Not sure what you are saying Dave - I'm certainly not disagreeing, uniess you are suggesting that I'm only imagining the situation because I only remember the bad ones - that would be very patronising of you
How does it prove that All's well ?
I'm talking about 1 concert here which I know I enjoyed
That is not my experience with the clubs, especially as I have trawled the web to see whats on offer - a handful of passable to reasonable the rest, well....
Clubs I have vited with young ladies doing "Dylan reprises" in breathy voices, introspective singer songwriters serenading their guitars... very little else
"But if over 90% of songs sung are good, I see that as a win!
ON ONE ****** EVENING - sort of like having to fly to Yorkshire for a good night
I am appalled this turned into a "win-lose" thing" - you really do disappoint me
I'm off while we're still friends
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 18 - 04:26 AM

The discussion is not a win/lose thing, Jim. Once again you are misrepresenting what was said. I consider it a win for me, ie a good result, if I go to a show or club and enjoy over 90% the songs.

What we are discussing here is the number of clubs that are putting on folk music as opposed to non folk. I think that at over 90% of clubs in the UK you have a better than 90% chance of hearing a lot of good quality folk music. You believe it to be considerably less. We will never agree on the proportion but we can agree that there is good and bad everywhere. Let's leave it at that.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Dec 18 - 04:39 AM

"I see that as a win!"
J

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 18 - 04:48 AM

Yes, Jim. Once again, I consider it a win for me, ie a good result, if I go to a show or club and enjoy over 90% the songs. Nothing whatsoever to do with winning any sort of fight.