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Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju

MGM·Lion 28 Sep 11 - 05:26 PM
MGM·Lion 28 Sep 11 - 05:35 PM
MGM·Lion 29 Sep 11 - 01:27 AM
MGM·Lion 29 Sep 11 - 01:38 AM
GUEST 29 Sep 11 - 06:25 AM
Charley Noble 29 Sep 11 - 07:17 AM
MGM·Lion 29 Sep 11 - 08:31 AM
Lighter 29 Sep 11 - 10:08 AM
GUEST,SteveG 29 Sep 11 - 02:19 PM
MGM·Lion 29 Sep 11 - 02:34 PM
GUEST,azizi 29 Sep 11 - 03:15 PM
MGM·Lion 29 Sep 11 - 04:02 PM
Crowhugger 29 Sep 11 - 04:41 PM
MGM·Lion 29 Sep 11 - 05:13 PM
Charley Noble 29 Sep 11 - 05:22 PM
stallion 29 Sep 11 - 05:24 PM
stallion 29 Sep 11 - 05:26 PM
giles earle 29 Sep 11 - 06:04 PM
GUEST,azizi 29 Sep 11 - 09:54 PM
GUEST,azizi 29 Sep 11 - 09:57 PM
stallion 30 Sep 11 - 03:25 AM
stallion 30 Sep 11 - 03:35 AM
stallion 30 Sep 11 - 03:42 AM
Charley Noble 30 Sep 11 - 08:05 AM
Lighter 30 Sep 11 - 08:27 AM
Azizi 30 Sep 11 - 10:08 AM
Charley Noble 30 Sep 11 - 10:15 AM
Young Buchan 30 Sep 11 - 11:41 AM
John Minear 30 Sep 11 - 04:30 PM
MGM·Lion 30 Sep 11 - 04:58 PM
Alio 30 Sep 11 - 06:55 PM
Lighter 30 Sep 11 - 07:35 PM
Azizi 30 Sep 11 - 07:42 PM
Lighter 30 Sep 11 - 07:44 PM
Lighter 30 Sep 11 - 08:01 PM
GUEST,azizi 30 Sep 11 - 08:08 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 30 Sep 11 - 08:40 PM
Charley Noble 30 Sep 11 - 09:11 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Oct 11 - 01:09 AM
stallion 01 Oct 11 - 04:30 AM
giles earle 01 Oct 11 - 04:49 AM
Lighter 01 Oct 11 - 08:35 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Oct 11 - 08:46 AM
stallion 01 Oct 11 - 04:44 PM
stallion 01 Oct 11 - 04:52 PM
giles earle 05 Oct 11 - 03:19 PM
MGM·Lion 05 Oct 11 - 04:50 PM
MGM·Lion 05 Oct 11 - 04:51 PM
giles earle 05 Oct 11 - 05:51 PM
GUEST,SteveG 06 Oct 11 - 04:57 PM
GUEST 04 Sep 14 - 03:35 AM
chrisgl 13 Apr 17 - 04:08 PM
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Subject: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 05:26 PM

I have always been puzzled by the meaning of this word/phrase in Peter Bellamy's song 'The Dogger Bank' on 'Fair England's Shore'.

Googling, I found the following variant~~

'The Trip of the Bigler···

CD: "Me for the Inland Lakes" by Tom and Chris Kastle. One of the songs is of the schooner the Bigler.

'And its watch her, catch her, jump up in her juber ju Give her sheet and let her slide, the boys'll push her through
You ought to seen us howlin' as the winds were blowing free On our passage down to Buffalo from Milwaukee"

(From a website on Inland Lakes and Great Lakes shanties.)
,.,.,.
In Peter Bellamy's variant of this, 'Great Grimsby', the passage was 'from the Dogger Bank to Great Grimsby', on one of his first solo albums for Xtra: "Fair England's Shore". In his variant, the chorus was:

So watch yer twinker she's a proper ju bi ju
Give her her sheets and let her rip we're the boys to see her through.
Ye should ha seen us rally the wind a blowing free
A passage from the Dogger Bank to Great Grimsby.
,.,.,.


My query ~~ what is the meaning of 'juberju/juber ju/ju bi ju'?

Google doesn't give much help as to meaning; though there is a YouTube channel of a performer using 'Juberju' as a name, on which 'there has been no recent activity'; and a version of the song appears on a record, 'Mountain Air' by Dan Berggren, under title 'Juberju'.

So, again, what does 'juberju', or 'juber ju', or 'ju bi ju' actually mean, please? Anybody know?

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 05:35 PM

BTW ~~ the website on Inland Lakes shanties that I found, mentioned above, includes a glossary; but 'juber ju' is silently omitted thence. Obviously they didn't know either!

~M~


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 01:27 AM

American Ballads and Folk Songs
_____                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ■ -■                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 -                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Just found following, from folloqing up a rf to Frank Warner collection on another thread                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Chorus:
Watch her and catch her And jump her juberju, Release the brakes and let her go, The bums will ride her through.
Chorus:
Don't stop for water, Just catch it on the fly, Will I get Holy Moses, On the Pennsylvania line!
Get out, get out, you dirty bum, You're on the Nashville train, Ten thousand miles away from home, Riding* an old freight train.
or Ten thousand miles away from home My heart was filled with pain.
Standing on the platform, Smoking a cheap cigar, A-listening for the next freight train To catch an empty car,
My pocketbook was empty,
My heart was full of pain,
Ten thousand miles away from home,
A-bumming the railroad train.
•As sung by a seventy-one-year-old ex-jailbird, a one-legged, "retired" Negro in New Orleans, t Kentucky mountain version. From H. H. Fuson's Songs of the Kentucky Highlands.

What does it all mean?

~M~


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 01:38 AM

This is the 'other thread' entry ref'd in above post ~~~

::Subject: RE: New evidence for 'shanty' origins?
From: Charley Noble - PM
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 04:15 PM

I'm also sure that the boatmen rowing the bateaux to deal with logjams would also sing rowing shanties from time to time. But the only traditional song that describes these bateaux is "Jump-Her Juberju" as collected by Frank Warner from John Galusha of Minerva, New York, and that's for entertainment.::

~M~


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 06:25 AM

Bigler's Crew, The [Laws D8]
DESCRIPTION: The Bigler sets out for Buffalo from Milwaukee. A number of minor incidents are described, and the Bigler's lack of speed sarcastically remarked upon: "[We] MIGHT have passed the whole fleet there -- IF they'd hove to and wait"
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1922 (Dean)
KEYWORDS: ship travel humorous
FOUND IN: US(MA,MW) Canada(Mar,Ont)
REFERENCES (12 citations):
Laws D8, "The Bigler's Crew"
Rickaby 47, "The Bigler's Crew" (1 text)
Dean, pp. 19-20, "The Bigler's Crew" (1 text)
Walton/Grimm/Murdock, pp. 129-135, "The Timber Drogher Bigler" (1 text plus excerpts from several other versions, 1 tune); p. 135, "The Stone Scow" (1 text, which Walton considered a separate adaption of this song but which has the same chorus and is exactly the same sort of plot as "The Bigler," so there seems litle reason to split them)
Warner 19, "Jump Her, Juberju" (this version rather heavily folk processed); 20, "The Bigler" (2 texts, 1 tune)
Creighton-Maritime, p. 141, "The Cruise of the Bigler" (1 text, 1 tune)
Lomax-FSUSA 46, "The Bigler" (1 text, 1 tune)
Sandburg, pp. 174-175, "Bigerlow" (1 short text, 1 tune)
Colcord, pp. 200-202, "The Cruise of the Bigler" (1 text, 1 tune)
Shay-SeaSongs, pp. 105-108, "The Bigler" (1 text, 1 tune)
Botkin-AmFolklr, pp. 843-845, "The Bigler's Crew" (1 text, 1 tune)
DT 611, BIGLRCRW*
Roud #645
RECORDINGS:
Stanley Baby, "The Trip of the 'Bigler'" (on GreatLakes1)
Harry Barney, "The Timber Drogher Bigler" (1938; on WaltonSailors)
Sam Larner, "The Dogger Bank" (on SLarner02)
Asa M. Trueblood, "The TImber Drogher Bigler" (1938; on WaltonSailors)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "The Light on Cape May" (tune, lyrics)
cf. "The Crummy Cow" (tune)
SAME TUNE:
The Crummy Cow (File: HHH501)
The Light on Cape May (File: Doe130)
NOTES: According to Julius F. Wolff, Jr., Lake Superior Shipwrecks, Lake Superior Port Cities Inc., Duluth, 1990, p. 42, a ship named J. Bigler was lost near Marquette, Michigan in 1884, but he was unable to find many other details. Walton said that the John Bigler was built in Detroit in 1866 and was wrecked in 1884, confirming Wolff's account. I know of no proof that this was "the" Bigler, but it seems likely.
According to one of Walton's informants, the song's description of the Bigler's sailing qualities is fairly accurate. The ship was built to carry waneys (partly cut logs), and like most such ships (known as timber droghers), she was narrow, with high sides, to fit through the Welland Canal between Lakes Erie and Ontario. Most such ships were rather slow. The Bigler carried more sail than most, but also had an extremely square bow, making her hard to steer and meaning that the extra sail did little to improve her speed.
Walton considers this the most popular of all the Great Lakes songs, and prints "The Stone Scow" as a parody on this basic pattern. Looking at the versions, I suspect this has in fact happened many times -- sailors would take "The Bigler" and supply details of their own voyages. I am not aware of any of these variants which have "taken off," and for the moment am classifying "The Stone Scow" and other similar variants here. - RBW
Last updated in version 2.4
File: LD08


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 07:17 AM

"Juberju" has been cause for speculation before. We'll have to dredge up some more threads to get the answer, or not.

Most likely it is a phrase from the minstrel stage/plantation dance, "a proper juberju."

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 08:31 AM

Thanks, Charley. Haven't come across the dance.

Thing is, it seems to have so many different applications. "She's a proper juberju" suggests that she is something excellent ~~ from 'jubilee', perhaps' or 'jube-jube' the sugary sweet. But where would phrases like "watch her, catch her, jump up in her juberju", where it seems to be a part of the ship's rigging(?), or one of her boats(?), fit in with that?

Remain greatly exercised!!!


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: Lighter
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 10:08 AM

To "jump Juba" was evidently a kind of African-American dance step.

"Juberjoo" appears only in the song.

It may not mean much of anything beyond "Jumpin' Jiminy!"


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 02:19 PM

Yes I have a recollection of a previous thread as well. Off the top of my head I seem to remember I traced it back to a New York Music-Hall song of the 1870s called 'The Knickerbocker Line' which was description of a carriage journey through the New York dockland area. I can't remember what we thought Jubaju was, maybe a particularly flash carriage. How the song got from the Great Lakes to Grimsby/Norfolk is anybody's guess, but New York to the Great Lakes is a relatively short jump. I'd guess that broadsides were involved somewhere along the line.


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 02:34 PM

Yes ~~ and Musselburgh Fair is related too. But Juberju doesn't actually appear in either of those. Nor in any of the Juba songs I have contrived so far to trace. Am reminded that Pete's version came, of course, from the great Sam Larner.

But in very few of the posts in the threads I have located so far, much guided by, and with thanks to, above posters, could I find much speculation as to the meaning, or derivation, of the 'juberju' jingle. It seems odd to me that so few have even speculated previously as to whether it is connected with juba, or jubal, or jubilee, or jube-jube or is merely a nonsense nonce-word.

Any other suggestions? Or discoveries?


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: GUEST,azizi
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 03:15 PM

"Juba Jew" was the name of an African American dance step from the early 1920s or earlier. That dance steo was mentioned in the version of "Juba" that was collected by Thomas W. Talley.

JUBA
Juba dis an' Juba dat,
Juba skin dat yaller Cat. Juba! Juba!

Juba jump an' Juba sing.
Juba, cut dat Pigeon's Wing. Juba! Juba!

Juba, kick off Juba's shoe.
Juba, dance dat Jubal Jew. Juba! Juba!

Juba, whirl dat foot about.
Juba, blow dat candle out. Juba! Juba!

Juba circle, Raise de Latch.
Juba do dat Long Dog Scratch.

-snip-

According to Talley's comments in his now classic 1922 book Negro Folk Rhymes-Wise and Otherwise, skin dat yaller Cat, cut dat Pigeon's Wing, Long Dog Scratch, and Jubal Jew were all names of African American dance steps.

"There is a variety of Dance Rhyme to which it is fitting to call attention. This variety is illustrated in our collection by "Jump Jim Crow," and "Juba." In such dances as these, the dancers were required to give such movements of body as would act the sentiment expressed by the words while keeping up the common requirements of beating these same words in a tattoo upon the ground with the feet and executing simultaneously a graceful dance."

Thomas Washington Talley (originally published New York: The Macmillan Company, 1922; p 231; 1968 edition)


I'm uncertain where that dance name Jubal Jew came from, or how that dance was done. However, "Juba" was used as a personal name for African American males and "Jubal" may have also been an African American male personal name. Perhaps the Jubal Jew was imitating the movements of a Black Jew. I'm only being a little bit facetious.


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 04:02 PM

Many thanks, Azizi. Not clear, still, how the words came from that to mean, it seems, both 'something excellent' - "she's a proper J.J'; or part of the rigging - "Jump into the J.J." But a definite sighting of the phrase in another context, which very valuable to be sure.

All v best

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: Crowhugger
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 04:41 PM

What's a twinker in this context?


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 05:13 PM

I think that is a mishearing of "watch her, twig her" ~ "twig" in the sense of notice or catch on to, as in expression "Do you twig?" But all the texts strike me as at least a bit garbled.


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 05:22 PM

I don't think "juberju" has anything to do with nautical nomenclature. It's just shore slang picked up in the dancehall used to juice up the conversation.

Here's the reference to Knickerbocker Line from the Grimsby Fisherman thread:

The uncredited text I quoted above is indeed Sam Larner's, though it has On passage where he sang A passage, and He's for He is in the final line of verse 2. The only significant difference is that it omits Sam's final chorus:

So watch her and twig her, the porra-per-ay she goes,
High heels, painted toes, Jinny is all the go;
She is one of the flash girls, doesn't she cut a shine?
She can do the double shuffle on the Knickerbocker Line.

This from Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger, The Singing Island, 1960. Sam apparently learned the song around 1890. For more on the chorus, see The Knickerbocker Line, above.


I remember puzzling over the term "chalk ginger blue" which I finally tracked down to "cake walk" dancing. One young captain used the expression for describing how well his ship was sailing in a brick breeze. Took me years to run that one down.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: stallion
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 05:24 PM

somewhere on the net there is a broadsheet, currently in the Bodlean library. and in a thread somewhere. It is all conjecture but having read the broadsheet I think in that context it was meant to mean "the real deal" However I think the broadsheet was written by a third party possibly heard or sung in the music hall style, I hasten to add that is only my opinion not a statement of fact


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: stallion
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 05:26 PM

PS Charley, the knicker bokker bit is not on the broadsheet and seems to have been a later addition


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: giles earle
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 06:04 PM

It is all conjecture but ....I think in that context it was meant to mean "the real deal" However I think the broadsheet was written by a third party possibly heard or sung in the music hall style, I hasten to add that is only my opinion not a statement of fact

Hence – and I'm speculating here, too – 'ju' potentially a mis-spelling (presumably for phonetic reasons) of 'due', in the sense of 'genuine'?


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: GUEST,azizi
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 09:54 PM

Here are corrections for my first and second sentences of my earlier post:

"Jubal Jew" was the name of an African American dance step from the early 1920s or earlier. That dance step was mentioned in the version of "Juba" that was collected by Thomas W. Talley.

**

With regard to "Walk chalk, Ginger Blue", we exchanged comments about this nore than five years ago, Charlie.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Sail on, Chalk Ginger Blue!
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 12:23 PM

Charley,

I shared my interpretation of this verse of the song "Gooseberry Wine" as found in African American educator & collector Thomas W. Talley's book "Negro Folk Rhymes" {Kennikat Press, p. 41, originally published 1922, Macmillan Press}.

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=47413#1702596


Oh walk chalk Ginger Blue!
Git over double trouble.
You needn' min' de wedder
So's de win' don't blow you
double
-snip-

IMO, "Ginger Blue" is a referent for a particular type of Black skin coloring that is "ginger", meaning reddish tinged. I have seen other references to Ginger Blue elsewhere in my reading on African American history & culture.

"Walk a chalk line" comes from the dance later known as the "cakewalk" but here-in my opinion- means to walk through life with caution {given the dangerous, difficult circumstances one faces}...


-snip-

Best wishes,

Azizi Powell


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: GUEST,azizi
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 09:57 PM

Sorry. "Nore" is not a new word. I meant to type "more". (But less might be best).


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: stallion
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 03:25 AM

I concur Giles, also "Pell Mell Swells" is also, again my opinion, an acted "posh" accent of Pall Mall Swells, Pall Mall being the nub of British high society up to and probably into the 20c, up to the end of 19c in the British army your officer seniority was from the day you were gazetted, the date that your promotion appeared in The Pall Mall Gazette. 2BS&S (unbridled self promotion!)have a version which I assembled from the broadsheet and used the Johnny Collins melody, It is on "Crossing the Pond". I suppose it might be on the myspace site, dunno cos I found it so difficult when it changed i gave up on it


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: stallion
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 03:35 AM

Also Azzizi I am impressed by your scholarship, we need people like you, i really miss Malcolm Douglas, he was a font of knowledge and insight and the the first port of call for a querry, hard boots to fill eh Charley.


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: stallion
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 03:42 AM

The Boddy Broadsheet


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:05 AM

Azizi-

"Ginger Blue" is a referent for a particular type of Black skin coloring that is "ginger", meaning reddish tinged.

Thanks for that additional information. I was still wondering why "ginger."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:27 AM

Thanks for the link, stallion.

There are two issues here.

The first is, "Where does 'juberju' (etc.) come from?"

The second is, "What does it mean?"

"Jump up on her juberju" sounds like it an echo of "jump(ing) Juba." A "a proper juberju" could be the next stage of misunderstanding. Maybe a "proper juberju" is an alteration of a "proper jubilee," changed arbitrarily for the rhyme. Beyond that, who knows? The derivation is essentially unknown.

A search of various databases finds no appearances of "juberju" (etc.) outside of versions of this song. That means that if it ever "meant" anything in particular, that "meaning" may have been known only to the creator of the original lyrics. The anarchic tone of the Bodleian broadside suggests that it's just a joke and means nothing at all.

With so little evidence, it's impossible to say much more. The fact that enormous book and newspaper databases don't turn up any "juberjus" outside of the song means that the average 19th Century singer/audience didn't know any more about it than we do.

In a hundred years, someone may well ask, "What's the real meaning of A-wop-bop-a-loo-bop-a-lop-bam-boom?" It's just a string of sounds.


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 10:08 AM

I just posted a long comment about the character Ginger Blue and the song/chorus "Walk Chalk Ginger Blue" in this mudcat thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=47413&messages=5#3231649

**

Charlie, with regard to your question "Why ginger", as one answer I'd like to suggest this site:

http://anakhaircolorcorner.blogspot.com/2009/06/ginger-hair.html Hair Color Corner; Tuesday, June 2, 2009
Ginger Hair Color

Here's an excerpt from that site:

"According to popular hair dressers, ginger hair color is one of the most misunderstood shades and often make the mistake is made of thinking that the client wanted ginger while in fact they wanted either reddish, copper, of even strawberry blonde hair colors. When you look at redhead children we actually see a ginger head, ginger is the balance between, orange and gold (yellow) with a hue of brown and when you are formulating split your orange and gold's equally and add a bite of brown, now you have ginger."

-snip-

Also, Charlie (and others) may I suggest this website:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=redbone

I refer you to urban dictionary because I believe that the term and name "ginger" as in "Ginger Blue" is similar if not equivalent to term "redbone". "Redbone" is still used but I believe that "ginger" as a referent for a certain complexioned Black person has long been retired. Also note the shortened version of "redbone" -Red- as in Tampa Red and Detroit Red (to cite two famous Black men, and Red Skelton, to cite a famous White man).

Here are two definitions sent in by readers of that site and voted on for accuracy or popularity by site visitors:

3. redbone

495 up, 236 down

"A specific brown-to-reddish skinned people of Louisiana with dark eyes and straight, frizzy or curly hair. They are often thought of as a tri-racial people of Native American, African and some form of Eastern or Western European heritage. Redbones are not neccesarily Creole or Cajun--they traditionally speak English.

The redbone lived in the Louisiana bayou his whole life."

-jennifer Oct 20, 2004

**

5. Redbone

131 up, 67 down

"Redbone is a person with red undertones in their skin. A person who is a yellow bone has yellow undertones in their skin. If you look closely at their skin you can see the differences.
A redbone can be a light-skinned african american or a person of mixed races meaning they have African American in them...mixed with other's ethnic races!
Redbone Example: Rachel True (Actress:Mona from Half and Half)
Yellow Bone Example: Faith Evans (R&B Singer)"
-Mika7 Jan 7, 2009


-snip-

stallion, thank you for your compliment. I have the time to do online research and I'm interested in African American, African, and African Diaspora subjects (as well as other subjects). Much of what I learned about online research I credit to many persons on this forum, including Malcolm Douglas. I certainly don't think anyone could fill his shoes, but we can learn from his example.

That said, I seldom post on mudcat now because I'm wary (and weary) of some aspects of this forum as my archived posts attest to.

Best wishes,

Azizi Powell


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 10:15 AM

Azizi-

Thanks for your additional comments, references and insights.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: Young Buchan
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 11:41 AM

There id an old East Anglian term - a jubanowl. It means something that is in a bad state of repair.


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: John Minear
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 04:30 PM

Here are a few references to "juberju":

http://books.google.com/books?id=KjdeGpL70nEC&pg=PA130&dq=juberju&hl=en&ei=ESKGTo6cFeXs0gH12dzUDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&

http://books.google.com/books?id=RJPhAAAAMAAJ&q=juberju&dq=juberju&hl=en&ei=ESKGTo6cFeXs0gH12dzUDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result

http://books.google.com/books?id=E74SR6POrzQC&pg=PA53&dq=juberju&hl=en&ei=ESKGTo6cFeXs0gH12dzUDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&r

http://books.google.com/books?id=-zLoMBM7EHwC&pg=PA134&dq=juberju&hl=en&ei=ASSGTr-9IYXW0QGC_7XDDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 04:58 PM

Thank you John. At least Messrs Walton & Grimm had realised that some gloss on the term should be offered, even if only speculative.

If it did mean 'jib-boom', to be jumped on, then later versions, in which she [the ship?] had become 'a popular {or a proper} juberju', there was presumably some confusion of the wording of the original, & the term, confused or conflated with some term of approval like 'jubilee' or 'jube-jube', had become some expression of praise for the excellence of the vessel?

Speculative: but more than simply a 'whack fol the daddy' or whatever equivalent?

~M~


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: Alio
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 06:55 PM

Jim Hancock of the Roaring 40's shanty group might well know the answers to your questions, I would think.
Ali x


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 07:35 PM

Azizi is right about the information from Talley, but his certainty that "jubal jew" is a kind of dance step may only be a guess based on "dance/ jump juba," which we know to be a real phrase. Since Talley seems to have been collecting orally, the original words may simply have been "Jump up an' juba joo." But we still can't explain the "joo." (We still couldn't explain it satisfactorily even if "Jubal Jew" really was the name of the step.)

The song that Talley comments on is clearly a relative of the family we're talking about here - at least as far as the "Jubal Jew" lines are concerned.

That adds substance to the idea that "juberju" came from the minstrel stage, but, except for the resemblance to "juba," it doesn't tell us anything about the "meaning," which I still think of as being like "A-wop-bop-a-loo-bop-a-lop-bam-boom," because it's fun to say that.

Here is Talley's song complete. The title is "Suze Ann":

Yes: I loves dat gal wid a blue dress on,
    Dat de white folks calls Suze Ann.
    She's jes' dat gal what stole my heart,
    'Way down in Alabam'.

But: She loves a Nigger about nineteen,
    Wid his lips all painted red;
    Wid a liddle fuz around his mouf;
    An' no brains in his head.

Now: Looky, looky Eas'! Oh, looky, looky Wes'!
    I'se been down to ole Lou'zan';
    Still dat ar gal I loves de bes'
    Is de gal what's named Suze Ann.
    Oh, head 'er! Head 'er! Ketch 'er!
    Jump up an' "Jubal Jew."
    Fer de Banger Picker's sayin':
    He hain't got nothin' to do.


Here's another possibility. Maybe "juberju" (pronounced "jubijoo") is a deliberate but meaningless alteration of "jubilo" or "jubiloo." That word was well known to minstrels from H. C. Work's famous "Year of Jubilo" (1862).

"Jubilo" is Latin for "make a joyful noise."


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 07:42 PM

Lighter- just for the record, I'm a she and not a he. :o)

I attempted to post as a guest but it didn't take so I've signed in for this posting.

Lighter, I agree with you about the possibile association of juberju with jubilee.

Here's the comment that I attempted to post before reading your comment:


Thanks John for posting those links.

I wasn't sure from reading those pages when that "the juberju song" was first documented. It appears that the informant for that song in one of the links you provided recalls it from the Civil War.

Songquest: the journals of Great Lakes folklorist By Ivan Walton, Joe Grimm

p. 53
Recollection of Captain Martin Johnson (Michigan) in his eighties, 1932

"He knew the juberju song [The E. C. Roberts]

Chorus:
Watch her, catch her
Jump on her juberju
Give her the sheet and let her go
We're the boys to push her through
You ought to hear her howling
Her course was down the shore
She's bound for Cleveland
With nine hundred tons of ore

-snip-

It would be interesting to find out when the dance step "Jubal Jew" was first documented. Professor Thomas Talley gives that dance step as part of the Juba dance, but his book was published in 1922 and the Juba dance is documented from the 1840s.

It wouldn't surprise me if the phrase "Jubal Jew" is folk etymology for a similar sounding phrase such as juberju. But that phrase is itself probably folk etymology.

From another link you provided, John Miner:

The mystery is "juberju". It's context seems to suggest that it is part of the vessel, yet no part of a sailing vessel is generally known by that name. Loudon Wilson suggested that this might be a corruption of another French word "gibre", the extension of the stem or knee piece of a vessel to which the bowspirit is attached. On some vessels, bow rails run all the way to the gibre, giving sailors a foothold. From there, or from foot ropes, they maneuvered the standing jib and others head sails to help catch more wind to bring a sluggish vessel about as it changed track. Another theory is that the expression was a hyperbolic description of the wheelsman's efforts to hold the Bigler's course. The reasoning says that the phrase was borrowed from a dance song of the day

Juba dance and Juba sing
Juba cut the pigeon wing. Juba! Juba!

Winjammers, Songs of the Great Lakes sailors By Ivan Walton, Joe Grimm ; pps 134-135


-snip-

But the word "Juba" itself may be folk etymology. The website http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3juba.htm and at least one other offline book I've read give the spelling of the word "Juba" as "giouba" in the Caribbean, while indicating that comes from a West African dance.

If documentation of the Jubal Jew step doesn't greatly predate the juberju song, I think it's highly possible that that step could have been patterned after the movements made by Black (or White) sailors as alluded to in the above quote.
However, I also think that the meanings of the word (and name)* Juba and Jubal were blended or overtaken by the meanings of the words jubilant and jubilee to (further) contribute to a fast paced dance movement.

Anyway, I like this admittedly vague description for the Jubal Jew dance step rather than the tongue in cheek description that I gave of mimicking the movements of a Black Jew.
For information about the meanings of the names Juba and Jubal, visit this page of my website http://www.cocojams.com/content/names-nicknames

Best wishes,

Azizi Powell


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 07:44 PM

So obvious I didn't think of it:

"Jump/dance Juba Ju" is short for "jump/dance Juba Juba."

That supports Talley's "dance-step" interpretation.


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:01 PM

"Master Juba" was the stage name of William H. Lane (ca1825-1852), said to have been the greatest dancer of the 19th C. minstrel stage. He was an African American, "lionized" in London when he played there with Pell's Serenaders in 1849.

His cue appears to have been, "Can you dance, Juba?"

Hence, "to dance juba."


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: GUEST,azizi
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:08 PM

While you're last guess might be possible, I think it's more to thae Jubal Jew phrase than that.

Also, the jubal jew phrase in Talley's collection that I was referring to was included in the chorus of the song "Gooseberry wine". Thanks for pointing out that other song from Talley's collection.

My final comment on this subject is that I think that the similarly sounding names, words and phrases "Juba", Jubal" , Jubilant, Jubilee, and also juberju (and even "ju ju") all blended together in some folks' minds to refer to a joyous uptempo dance movement that was part of the Juba dance and that was known as the "Jubal Jew".

Best wishes,

-Azizi (posting as a guest to see if it takes)


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:40 PM

Re juba ("southern plantation dance) - OED give 1832.

In she's a proper jj, could it be derived from jubejube (= lozenge) -> jubeju, something that makes you feel good, a tonic?

Mick


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 09:11 PM

Stepping back a little, remember that people who casually pick up a phrase like "Juberju" don't necessarily know where it came from but just that it's a "cool" thing to say.

It still amazes me how much can be embedded in a single phrase.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 01:09 AM

So ~~ jubilee or jubilo or juba or jube-jube - all words of pleasant/lively connotations, hence 'she' being a popular or proper one

or gibre or some such, part of ship's rigging on which sailor's could jump for certain navigational purposes

or conflation of these into a whack-the-fol or ee-i-ee-i-ay sort of chorus locution ~~

but how odd that these should have been confined to variants of this one song, or at most two, rather than spreading further...


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: stallion
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 04:30 AM

I can hear Robert Robinsons voice now can't remember the prog name though!


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: giles earle
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 04:49 AM

Call My Bluff, was it?


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 08:35 AM

> but how odd that these should have been confined to variants of this one song, or at most two, rather than spreading further..

Like "A-wop-bop-a-loo-bop...," not odd at all. Remember that the original phrase, "dance juba," was used primarily by plantation slaves and minstrel showmen. To judge from the evidence of the databases, "jump juba" was even less common, and "jump juba ju" possible imaginary.

"Juberju" remained confined to one song and those that borrowed from it because it sounded like nonsense. Of the people who heard it, and remembered it, hardly any would have had the opportunity to use it in print, and of those, far fewer would have had the desire.

Moreover, Mick Pearce's suggestion that "jujube" is the origin is appealing. Far more music-hall audiences people must have been familiar with the jujube than with dancing juba.

The problem is that "jujube" would have to be pronounced as "joo-joo-bee" (rather than "joo-joob," the only pronunciation in the OED). That's possible - but why alter that to "joo-buh-joo"?

Well, for the rhyme, obviously. (Though rhymes for "-ee" are easy enough to find.) But if "jujube" must be mangled and given a new "meaning" unknown to the OED besides, the probability begins to shrink and shrink. Unless, of course, the author had "jujube" in mind and thought it sounded so funny he would play with it further. But there's absolutely no way to determine that.

It's fair to say that if we had only British texts, "jujube" would be a possible origin. If there were only minstrel texts, "juba" might be a better guess. As things stand, it is hard to say which is more probable - or less improbable. And whatever the answer, "juberju" itself, then and now, remains nonsensical. As a result, anyone can project any meaning they want onto it, but that's another story.

I now think any resemblance to "jubilo" is coincidental.


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 08:46 AM

I had actually made the 'jube-jube' suggestion myself already, before Mick Pearce ~~ 29 sep 0831 am.


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: stallion
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 04:44 PM

spot on giles


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: stallion
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 04:52 PM

ok managed to upload our version of the song here


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: giles earle
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 03:19 PM

Ju-Bijoux.

Umm. Perhaps not...


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 04:50 PM

Well, I don't know ~~ the ad sez

---"Ju-Bijoux" is the design studio of exclusive 100% hand-made jewelry.
All we design is the product of fresh ideas, enthusiasm and passion for creativity. So every marked "Ju-Bijoux" jewelry piece is unique, vivid and versatile.
The "Ju-Bijoux" woman is young, urban, always looking to experiment with colours, textures, and emotions. She has her own look upon beauty and establishes her own rules---


In other words, might one say, she's a proper ju-bi-ju?

Seriously, I wonder if anyone in the design studio or the marketing firm who chose the name knew the phrase from any version of the song. Seems too good to be true if not?

~M~


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 04:51 PM

BTW ~ well spotted, Giles!


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: giles earle
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 05:51 PM

I wonder if anyone in the design studio or the marketing firm who chose the name knew the phrase from any version of the song. Seems too good to be true if not?

I fear so - too good to be true, I mean - as it's a Romanian website, of a jewellery designer in Moldava. ( ... Google Translate has just assured me that 'ju biju' means 'I'll kill her' in both Czech and Slovak, and 'beat it' in Serbian. Not the most compelling of advertisements for a necklace. One assumes that she sells relatively little of her bijouterie in those countries.)


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 04:57 PM

Whilst I might be stating the obvious here, it might be useful if we could identify the order of appearance of the different songs that use this or a similar chorus. Cazden et al in Folk Songs of the Catskills has a good go at this but doesn't manage to turn up any definite precedence.

I'll put in what I can from my own research and from Cazden.

Cazden gives the earliest appearance of 'The Knickerbocker Line' as 1859, however without a chorus. There can be no question or doubt that it is based in New York where the KL was a well-known wagon route. However, the song almost immediately appeared in Britain probably via the original performer touring, where several British adaptations soon emerged, with the usual chorus, sans 'Juber ju', the usual line being 'Watch her, twig her, pipe her how she goes.'

The 'Bigler' was built in 1866. See 'Windjammers'.

The Bodleian 'Grimsby Fishermen' broadside is very hard to date having no imprint. It is in with broadsides by Catnach and Such and could be anything from 1830 to 1880. The style I'd put at about 1860.

Unless anybody can come up with some more precise dating or a really intense comparative study of the earliest versions, it's going to be difficult to say which came first, second etc. My money at the moment is on TKL as being the original, but which came next out of the others is anybody's guess.

The Bodleian line goes 'Watch us, twig us, we're a popular juba jue' which I simply interpret as 'the bee's knees'.


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 03:35 AM

Supposition:- Jew by jew - A mean wind (Nor' by nor' east?)


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Subject: RE: Juberju/Juber ju/Ju bi ju
From: chrisgl
Date: 13 Apr 17 - 04:08 PM

I came across this

"Juba and Jude are common slave names that were often adopted by dancers and musicians."

Source is here, Master Juba is reckoned to be the originator of tap dancing.

http://masterjuba.com/


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