The recordings of Henry Burstow

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 10:07 AM

Joe... I've emailed you ... Derek

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 02:56 AM

Somebody needed to contact Jon Dudley about his posts in this thread. If you know how I can contact Jon, can you email me?
Thanks.
-Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor-
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 02:20 PM

Duly noted Thanks

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: GUEST,surreysinger sans cookie
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 08:29 PM

Nick - As I suggested above, the person who can probably tell you more is Andrew King. He was responsible for working with the collection while working at the British Library, and is currently carrying out research into the recordings held there. I've dropped an email off to him tonight to see if he can shed any light.

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 03:48 PM

I had a chat with Roy Palmer and he does not remember where he got the snippet of info about the existence of the Burstow recordings. However he is quite optomistic about the search for them. Next phone call to the library ASAP

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 06:23 PM

I can imagine what my wife would say if I sang to her for fourty one evenings! Then I'm not Henry Burstow. I'll ring Roy Palmer tomorrow (Monday)
and report back

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: Surreysinger
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 12:06 PM

Having now got my copy of Reminiscences out of the bookcase, I can say quite happily that Burstow's wife did enjoy the experience. He records

"Some few times I have sung the list of 420 songs right through, every song from beginning to end; the last time I did so I sang them to my wife, commencing on 4th April 1906, the 78th anniversary of her birthday. I sang about ten on 41 consecutive evenings, and as we sat, evening after evening, one on either side of the fire, as happy as a king and queen, I singing my best, she listening and occasionally herself singing one of the fifty songs I had taught her, the old songs seemed as fresh and as pretty as they did when I first sang them fifty, sixty, perhaps seventy years or more ago."

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: GUEST,surreysinger sans cookie
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 04:55 AM

Hmm .."Broadwood's prodigious memory" ?? My last post was not proofread properly before the button was pushed! That should, of course, have been "Burstow's prodigious memory". (For all I know Ms Broadwood, who was an awesome hard worker, and whose daily recorded exploits leave me feeling exhausted just to read about them, may have had an equally impressive recall, but I wouldn't know! LOL)

Interesting that you should mention the matter of RVW and the list of subscribers Jon, as that had crossed my mind, and I had meant to check through the listing when I got home after work last night. (Doctor Who got in the way). It does seem strange. However, my impression is that, as with other singers from whom she had collected,Lucy harboured a fondness for Burstow, which would make her subscription quite understandable.Maybe RVW didn't have that sort of a connection ?(Wish I could claim to be as knowledgeable as you suggest ... but I'm definitely enthusiastic!)

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 12:23 AM

Sorry about the typos in my post. I'm glad you've entered the thread Jim. As Miss Broadwood's admirable and knowledgeable protagonist says, the list of 'subscribers' in the back of Henry's book shows that Lucy Broadwood is down for having 2 copies, yet V-W isn't recorded at all...maybe his donation was anonymous?, for I like to think he would have supported the project. There are also several Canadian subscribers - Old Horshamians (is that the term?) or relatives I wonder?

By the way, for those of you who are enthusiasts for campanology but unfamiliar with this book, there is much to delight. Sadly, rather like the bells in their belfries, it goes way above my head.

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: GUEST,Jim Ward
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 09:43 PM

This extract from Henry's Book seems relevent to this thread-
"In 1892-3 I lent my list of songs to Miss Lucy E.Broadwood (later Hon. Secretary and Editor to the Folk Song Society), and sang to her a large number of them, which she noted. Miss Broadwood left her old home, "Lyne", near Horsham, in 1893 and some eleven years later suggested to Dr. Ralph Vaughan Williams, a country neighbour, that he should come to see me. I sang to him such songs as he asked for, all of which he took down; some of them he recorded by his phonograph. This was the first time I had seen or heard one of these marvellous machines and I was amazed beyond expression to hear my own voice.
I am glad to know that in these ways have been preserved the words and tunes of nearly all those songs of mine that come within the objects of the Society, viz.: those that are "traditional survivals of songs expressive of the thoughts and emotions of untaught people passing between mind and mind from more or less remote periods to the present time"
A note at the foot of the page regarding the last paragraph says- " This definition of Folk Song (source unknown) meets with the approval of the Hon. Secretary of the Folk Song Society"

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 09:01 PM

I've got Roy Palmers number so I'll give him a try tomorrow (Sunday) and report back. Thanks for your help all who contacted me.

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 09:53 AM

Sorry Derek. I am the Guest. Forgot to fill my name in!
Nick Dow [e-mail]
If you send me Roy's number I'll give him a ring. Meanwhile I'll try and set the ball rolling with the number for the library quoted above.
Great post about Gordon Hall and his work, also the comments about both Henry Burtow and Gordons musical and academic capabilities. Makes you wonder about the oft quoted argument that the tradition survives best in the hands of the illiterate, because it can not be fixed in writing. Old Bert Lloyd used to argue against that one.
If we never hear a peep from Burstow himself, its been great to see so much interest in him and his songs.

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: GUEST,Surreysinger at work
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 09:17 AM

Hmm ... garbled first sentence. That should start "The list of songs IS at the back ......"

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: GUEST,surreysinger at work
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 09:15 AM

The list of songs at the back of "Reminiscences" which was published in 1911 by Albery (a local saddler) via the Christian Church Society as a subscription edition (the names of all subscribers are in the back of the book, and make interesting reading - Lucy Broadwood bought 2, if my memory from the workdesk serves me well). Two runs of 400 and 500 copies were published. (I am lucky enough to have one of these, bought as a retirement present to myself some years ago.) The songs which Burstow had learned from his father were asterisked in the list, although there are indeed no words of songs provided (hardly surprising in view of the number). They make interesting and sometimes rather amusing reading (the titles of some songs are hilarious in conjunction with each other - although that might be just my sense of humour talking!) Although, as Jon rightly says, you have to wait till the last couple of chapters in the book for any substantial mention of singing or bell ringing, the book itself is an interesting read purely for reminiscences of the social history of Horsham and its inhabitants. He records the last public hanging in the town, local election practices, local customs and characters, and there are a couple of drawings of his in the book as well.

For more general information about Burstow, the Wikipedia entry is actually quite useful, drawing mostly on Burstow's book, Lucy Broadwood's comments, and Andy Turner's Oxford Dictionary of National Biography entry for its content.

The quote about Broadwood's prodigious memory above has always been a favourite of mine (used more than once in the talks I have given over the last few years about Ms Broadwood), as is the story of his "stealing" the words and tune of a much desired song from another singer (detailed in the Wikipedia entry). He also details the fact that, to celebrate his wife's birthday, he set out to sing every one of the songs that he knew to her over the course of several evenings. (It would be interesting to know whether she actually appreciated this birthday gift, but he doesn't record anything to that effect.However, since he also records that his wife also sang herself, and had learned a number of songs from him, maybe she did enjoy the experience ?)

His bellringing exploits extended over a very wide area around Horsham (he even details that he came as far north as Guildford for that) - and he was so esteemed by the people of Newdigate in Surrey that they volunteered to provide him with trading premises as a cobbler locally so that he could ring there on a regular basis.He turned the offer down, as he did not want to move away from Horsham. (It was interesting, on visiting Newdigate to give a talk on Ms Broadwood, to note that the church and the pub in Newdigate were immediately opposite each other. :-) )

I was intrigued by the suggestion that Lucy Broadwood started collecting from Burstow after he had written to her. In fact she records (as far as I recall from memory) in her talk to the Royal Musical Association in London in 1906 that one of the workers on her family estate had told her that he knew of a bellringer who knew old songs - as a result of which she contacted him (rather than the other way round), and had the loan of his book listing all of the songs which he knew.She then arranged for him to visit her at Lyne in 1893, where he sang her a number of his songs.

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 03:21 AM

For several years and up until the time of his death, Gordon Hall was researching the Burstow repertoire. Tantalisingly it is at the end of his book 'Reminiscences of Horsham that Henry talks of songs and singing...the songs he knew are listed...some 420! No words, no music, just song titles and sometimes the title is what might be the first line. It was from this list that Gordon had the Herculean task of teasing out the words and music. It was a challenge for which he was well well equipped - a man of remarkable intellect and an auto-didact he attacked the project with all the vigour of a phd researcher. His work led him to The National Maritime Museum, The Bodleian Library, the VWML and all stations in between. The manuscript I believe now sits with a nephew who recognises its value as a piece of genuine research and I hope will ultimately be shared with enthusiasts. Interestingly, fate decreed that as a young man, Gordon lived in Henry Burstow's old house in Horsham.

These two men must have been similarly intellectually endowed and blessed with enquiring intelligent minds. Gordon relished the joy of singing just as described by Burstow all those tears before, who said -
"I do not know whether bell ringing or song-singing has yielded me the greater pleasure through life. Whilst the former has been my sole physical exercise, except the compulsory ones of walking and stitching (he was a cobbler), the latter has been my companion day after day in my journey from infancy through every stage of life to my now extreme old age"

Burstow's father was a singer too with over 200 songs to his name. Henry describes himself the ease with which he could acquire a new song -
"In learning and retaining all my songs my memory has seemed to work quite spontaneously, in much the same way as the faculties of seeing and hearing: many of the songs I learnt at the first time of hearing: others, longer ones, I have learnt upon hearing them twice through: none, not even 'Tom Cladpole's trip to London', nor 'Jan Cladpole's trip to 'Merricur' each of which has 155 verses, has ever given me any trouble to acquire'.

The frontispiece to Henry Burstow's 1911 book carries a photograph of the man - white haired and bearded wearing a frock coat and bold watch chain he looks benign and intelligent - he and Gordon Hall would have got along splendidly.

Now that Gordon's the gone, Jim Ward of Crawley is as fine a repository of Burstow and Hall law as I've found.

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 07:16 PM

Reminiscences of HORSHAM being Recollections of Henry Burstow....

It's been available on the South Riding Folk Network site for some years now. I think Malcolm Douglas might have been responsible for putting it there.

Mick

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: SussexCarole
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 06:50 PM

Wow! A quick google search has come up with this!

http://www.folk-network.com/miscellany/burstow/burstow.html

Sorry I can't do blue clicky

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: SussexCarole
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 06:47 PM

"Reminiscences of Horsham" is a wonderful book which was written by ?? Albery and published to help fund Henry Burstow in his late years.   Unfortunately I don't have a copy - it is available in the reference section of Horsham Library.

The book is full of Henry Burstow's memories and if I remember correctly has either a list of his songs and/or possibly words to his songs as well.

Burstow was also a bellringer at Horsham and there is a wonderful story in that book of the times he travelled around bellringing at local churches with Michael Turner who lived in Warnham which is about 3 miles from Horsham.

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 06:40 PM

If "Guest" above can identify who they are, I can pass his/her email details to Roy Palmer, whose contact details I have.
Derek

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 04:10 PM

I had a long chat with Roy Palmer some time ago when he wanted to include a song I had collected in Dorset in one of his books. Needless to say I have lost his phone number. I believe he lives in the coventry area?? If somebody can mail his number to me on [e-mail] I'll happily give him a ring. Meanwhile I have not lost all hope of hearing Burstow, however I get the feeling that if the recordings still existed more learned men than I would have turned their attention to them a long time ago. then again you never know...

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 03:07 PM

There's too much stuff on here!! LOL

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 03:05 PM

Quite right. Apologies Tim - should have checked further!

Mick

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 02:54 PM

Mick, I think Tim is already well aware of that ,witness his earlier thread on the matter at this place on Mudcat :-)

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 02:48 PM

Tim - as Surreysinger points out, by no means all the songs in Henry Burstow's list were taken down, so you're bound not to find some of them.

If The Sailor's Bride you mention is Our Bessie Was A Sailor's Bride as shown in his list, there are 98 entries in a cross-index of the Roud #13808 (51 song, rest in broadside), so it seems to have been quite common. You could check to see if there was a lot of variation in the collected versions; if not you might reasonably assume that his version was similar.

Mick

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 02:11 PM

Herewith the relevant thread

Malcolm's message of 11 May 2005 at 10.19 is the one which refers to Burstow's cylinder recordings.

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 02:08 PM

I was just hunting, and have discovered that the topic was covered by Malcolm Douglas in a thread on the Deeds of Napoleon in 2005 - and he quite specifically recorded that none of Burstow's recordings had survived. I have a feeling you asked me about that song Tim - not one that I have ever come across. Mind you, a lot of the 400 odd songs that Burstow listed are not "folk" songs as such - a lot are music hall songs. I wonder if the one you're after might have been one such?
The trouble is that Lucy was only after specific songs when she approached him ... modal, and ballads for preference, and announced that only 25% of his repertoire was worth taking down. As Vaughan Williams had worked closely with her at the outset, I wonder if he took the same tack, in which case the song might very well not have made it through the quality sieve?

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: RTim
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 02:03 PM

Earlier in the year I was trying to obtain the words of a song as collected from Burstow, and listed as one of the 400 plus he sang - The Sailors Bride.
However, not even the words he sang are known.
So I don't hold out much hope for him actually singing - anything!!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 01:32 PM

Interesting. It was my understanding that there was only a rumour that a Henry Burstow cylinder recording was to be found somewhere. Everyone I have asked (as I have a great interest in actually hearing the voice of someone that Lucy Broadwood collected from - other than the other cylinder recordings available at the British Library and online) has told me that they have never come across one. And as far as I recall that includes Andrew King, who was responsible for curating that part of the British Library collection for some time, and is now doing research into cylinder recordings for a PhD. I'll try dropping him a line to see if he can confirm or otherwise.

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 01:13 PM

To add, for those following the thread, the quote from Roy Palmer is (Everyman's Book of English Country Songs, introduction p3, talking of Henry Burstow):

"Ralph Vaughan Williams visited him in 1904 and took down further songs, some on a recording machine. One hopes that the cylinders, at present preserved at the Institute of Recorded Sound, will one day be transferred to modern records ot tapes, so that we can hear Henry Burstow's voice."

Mick

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 01:08 PM

I see what you mean about Roy Palmer's introduction - he certainly thought they were there, despite the entry on the EFDSS wiki I quoted.

The Sound Archive search for Burstow returns 6 items, 5 of which are folk-related (one has composer Burstow), and all mention the name in the context of notes (one not Henry Burstow).

Since the Sound Archive helpfully provides contact information, it would be easy to contact them and see if they have any more information:

    Janet Topp Fargion
    Curator, World and Traditional Music
    The British Library Sound Archive
    96 Euston Road
    London
    NW1 2DB
    United Kingdom
  
    Tel: [phone]
    Fax: [phone]
  
    E-mail: [e-mail]
  

The other avenue would be to see if anyone could contact Roy Palmer and find the basis for his introductory remarks.

Are you volunteering for the treasure hunt Nick?

Mick

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 01:03 PM

And the LP is available on E.bay at the moment. What a line up of singers! I love Bob Lewis. The Painful Plough CD is excellent.
Meanwhile... How about an E.mail or two to the British Library?

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: Vic Smith
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 12:54 PM

The information that Michael gives above for the BL recording at http://sounds.bl.uk/View.aspx?item=025M-C1002X0088XX-0200V0.xml is as follows:-

Duration: 00:04:43

Shelf mark: 1CDR0010660 (copy of C1002/88)

Subjects: English folk songs and music (Sussex)

Recording date: ca. 1971-09

Collection: Keith Summers Collection

Recording locations: A folk club in Lewes, East Sussex, England, UK

Performers: Blake, Bob (singer, male)

Recordists: Summers, Keith

Description:

Item notes: Roud Folk Song Index No. 377. Song from Henry Burstow of Horsham. Recording notes: Low recording level

I can add some more information to that.
The date was May 11th 1974. The folk club was located at the Lewes Arms in Mount Place in Lewes. At the time we held an annual Sussex Singers' Night and would invite about a half-a-dozen of the surviving traditional singers of the county to each of these and give the whole evening over to them. On this occasion as well as Bob Blake, there was The Copper Family, Cyril Phillips, George Belton, George Spicer and Bob Lewis.
As well as the evening being recorded by Keith Summers, it was also recorded by Karl Dallas on rather superior equipment and some of the recordings that Karl made were edited and made into a an LP - The Brisk Ploughboy: Songs and Stories in a Sussex Pub on Xtra XTRS1150 (1975).
All the singers who had sung on that evening were later assembled to have their photograph taken for the album cover. However, instead of photographing them outside the pub where the recordings were made, the photograph was taken outside a much posher pub, The George in the centre of Crawley. The choice of photographic venue annoyed Cyril Phillips who later told me, "What did they want to take us to that place for? They'd no more let you shit on their carpets than let you sing in that bloody place!"

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 12:47 PM

My knowledge of the existence of the Burstow recordings is entirely due to Roy Palmer. His excellent collection of country songs in the everyman series, has a reference in the introduction, to the existence of the recordings, that they are in the library and a bleak reference to 'let's hope we can hear them soon'
I too found the Bob Blake recording (which was a joy)
So either Roy is wrong in his intro, or there is a job to be done here. Loud cheers! I like a treasure hunt!

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 06:24 AM

Jon ~ I replied to your post, but it seems not to have taken.

So, once again, thanks for this info. I should probably have explored further. Hope some way might be found to upload originals some time.

All best to you all

~Michael~

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 06:23 AM

I should have added that the Roud index shown no entries for recordings of Burstow collected by Vaughan-Williams (also there's a problem with the search at VWML using None - I tried to exclude Book and Journal from the Type field to reduce the56 entries - without success!). Not necessarily definitive in itself; I seem to recall that he said not all recordings were covered.

Mick

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 06:20 AM

According to this folkopedia article on Henry Burstow:

"In 1907 Vaughan Williams phonographed two songs from Burstow. Unfortunately these recordings are now lost, but Lucy Broadwood published a full transcription of one, "Bristol Town" (English Traditional Songs and Carols p114-115), which illustrates the traditional singer's ability to adapt a song's tune and phrasing verse by verse." (my bold)

Nick - does this mean that you know that the two recordings have been found?


Mick

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 03:27 AM

Mike...as far as I can see it's a Henry Burstow version sung by Bob Blake...had it been the cobbler himself its duration of 4+minutes on a V-Wlliams' cylinder might have been problematical. But it would have been even more magical than even dear old Bob B.

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 12:11 AM

By logging on to the relevant part of the British Library Sound Archive site


http://sounds.bl.uk/

selecting the 'World & traditional music' option in the 'Browse all collections' box

and entering 'henry burstow' into the search box, I accessed one recording, Basket Of Eggs. Whether others could be accessible by following links from that one I didn't have time to explore; but someone might like to try. Or perhaps to follow that link to make further enquiries.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: Anglo
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 12:04 AM

Jeez, I didn't know there were any. I want to hear them! Preferably now.

Subject: RE: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: RTim
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 07:19 PM

I certainly agree with you Nick. Too many great singing, and playing, performances are being kept away from us. However, I fear they will only be released if someone makes money from it.

Tim Radford

Subject: The recordings of Henry Burstow
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 06:37 PM

They were made by Vaughn Williams on cylinder, and are in the Institute of Recorded Sound, now the British Library.
Is there any reason why the are not on line?
If we can listen to Joseph Taylor why not Burstow? It is not as if he was not an important singer. Even if the recordings are delicate and in danger of decay it would be worth playing them once and copying them. Does anybody have any info?