Death by drowning in traditional songs

Subject: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 09:54 AM

Any suggestions? Particularly involving rivers, and ideally involving soldiers as the victims.

With future weeks at 52fs in mind, I'm looking for songs with a thematic link to Kipling's "Ford o' Kabul River". Pete Seeger's "Waist Deep in the Big Muddy" comes to mind, but offhand I can't think of anything traditional.

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 10:06 AM

A Sailor's Life
Golden Vanitee

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Paul Burke
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 10:21 AM

Lowlands away?

Drowning in the songs I can remember is more for romantic effect than narrative factuality, things like Annan Water, Stow Brow, Clyde Water etc.

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 10:41 AM

Drownings galore in rivers, lakes and mill ponds, but no military connection, I'm afraid;
Twa Sisters
Marrowbones
Drowned Lovers/Clyde's Waters
Annan Water
Lakes of Shilin

(And how strange to think that Nic Jones was once a lifeguard at Chelmsford Swimming Pool.)

Plenty of sailors drowned in storms at sea;
Drowned Sailor
Sir Patrick Spens

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 11:03 AM

Two more, one ancient, one modern;

The Bitter Withy

On Morecambe Bay

300 and more men have been collecting cockles on Foulnaze Bank in the Ribble estuary. They have little knowledge of the tides, and Lytham lifeboat has been called out 26 times in two months. The fishery has been officially closed, but men are now going out under cover of dark. Be prepared for another disaster.

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 11:16 AM

WILLIE'S DROWNED IN YARROW
Traditional

Doun in yon garden sweet and gay,
Where bonnie grows the lilie,
I heard a fair maid, sighing, say,
'My wish be wi' sweet Willie!

O Willie's rare, and Willie's fair,
And Willie's wondrous bonnie;
And Willie hecht to marry me,
Gin e'er he married ony.

But Willie's gone, whom I thought on,
And does not hear me weeping;
Draws many a tear frae true love's e'e,
When other maids are sleeping.

Yestreen I made my bed fu' braid,
The nicht I'll mak' it narrow;
For, a' the live-lang winter nicht,
I lie twined o' my marrow.

Oh gentle wind, that bloweth south,
From where my love repaireth,
Convey a kiss frae his deir mouth,
And tell me how he fareth!

O Tell sweit Willie to come doun,
And bid him no be cruel;
And tell him no to break the heart
Of his love and only jewel.

O tell sweit Willie to come doun,
And hear the mavis singing;
And see the birds on ilka bush,
And leaves around them hinging.

The lav'rock there, wi' her white breast,
And gentle throat sae narrow;
There's sport eneuch for gentlemen,
O Leader haughs and Yarrow.

O Leader haughs are wide and braid,
And Yarrow haughs are bonnie;
There Willie hecht to marry me,
If e'er he married ony.

O cam' ye by yon water side?
Pu'd you the rose or lilie?
Or cam' ye by yon meadow green?
Or saw ye my sweit Willie?'

She sought him up, she sought him doun,
She sought the braid and narrow;
Syne, in the cleaving o' a craig,
She found him drowned in Yarrow.

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 11:48 AM

Cruel Sister (a variant of Twa Sisters, above??)
Omie Wise

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 12:01 PM

Clyde Waters is a possibility, as long as I can avoid all those Communist spies (the Russians in the Clyde water...). Lowlands would do, although I might save that for a week with a focus on ghosts/dead lovers/haircuts - or for that matter pair it with the Golden Vanitee, whose action seems to have taken place in the same neighbourhood.

Stow Brow would definitely fit. Thanks for suggesting that, Paul - I hadn't come across it before.

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: GUEST,lewbook
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 12:49 PM

Some versions of the Mountain of Pomeroy (possibly composed by George Sigerson - see prior thread) end:

And a pale drowned bride met Reynardine
on the Mountains iof Pomeroy.

If not traditional in the sense of anonymously composed, Three Score and Ten is one often sung. See the Cantaria website for a scholarly history

Methinks I see a host of craft
Spreading their sails alee
Down the Humber they do glide
All bound for the Northern Sea
Me thinks I see on each small craft
A crew with hearts so brave
Going out to earn their daily bread
Upon the restless wave

Chorus:
And it's three score and ten
Boys and men were lost from Grimsby town
From Yarmouth down to Scarborough
Many hundreds more were drowned
Our herring craft, our trawlers
Our fishing smacks, as well
They long defied that bitter night
And battled with the swell

Methinks I see them yet again
As they leave this land behind
Casting their nets into the sea
The herring shoals to find
Me thinks I see them yet again
They're all on board all right
With their nets rolled up and their decks cleaned off
And the side lights burning bright

Me thinks I've heard the captain say
"Me lads we'll shorten sail"
With the sky to all appearances
Looks like an approaching gale
Me thinks I see them yet again
Midnight hour is past
The little craft abattling there
Against the icy blast

October's night brought such a sight
'Twas never seen before
There were mast and yards and broken spars
Come a washed up on the shore
There were many a heart in sorrow
Many a heart so brave
There were many a fine and hearty lad
That met a watery grave

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: GUEST,John from "Elsie`s Band"
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 12:54 PM

"Hartlake Bridge" tells of the hop-pickers who were drowned when swept off the bridge in their carriages due to the Medway in flood. They are remembered on a gravestone in the churchyard at Hadlow, near Tonbridge.

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 01:10 PM

In Prentice Boy/Ekefield Town it is not entirely clear, nor consistent between versions, as to whether the young woman is already dead from stabbing or assault before she is plunged into the waters, or whether she is murdered by being pushed or thrown in to drown.

~M~

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 01:19 PM

Death by Boredom in Traditional Songs

Famous Floosies of Serving Men! ;0)

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Paul Burke
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 01:25 PM

Shut up Lizzie, unless you've something to say to the point.

This is about a soldier drowning, though far worse than a river; and it's not (as far as I know) a song:

Memorial Tablet (Siegfried Sassoon)

Squire nagged and bullied till I went to fight,        
(Under Lord Derby's Scheme). I died in hell—        
(They called it Passchendaele). My wound was slight,        
And I was hobbling back; and then a shell        
Burst slick upon the duck-boards: so I fell        
Into the bottomless mud, and lost the light.        

At sermon-time, while Squire is in his pew,        
He gives my gilded name a thoughtful stare:        
For, though low down upon the list, I'm there;        
'In proud and glorious memory' ... that's my due.
Two bleeding years I fought in France, for Squire:        
I suffered anguish that he's never guessed.        
Once I came home on leave: and then went west...        
What greater glory could a man desire?

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 02:05 PM

The Outlandish Knight - 7 drownings including 1 outlandish knight (does he count as a soldier?)

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 02:32 PM

In The Wind and the Rain, which is a kind of cross between Prentice Boy and Two Sisters, we have

He spun her around and he struck her to the ground
Threw her in deep water where he knew she would drown

so that's drowning as murder weapon.

It's really "he/she drowned and I'm really sad about it" that I'm after, or else "I very nearly drowned and I'm really angry about it". Three Score and Ten is a good one.

Turn yer 'orse from Kabul town
Draw the trumpet, blow the sword-

damn it, I always get that wrong...

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 02:37 PM

Not a soldier, and it turns out that the 'victim' actually survived, but: Judy Drownded

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 02:56 PM

Riley the Fisherman

It was then twelve months after, she was walking by the sea
When Riley he came back again and took his love away
The ship was wrecked, all hands was lost, her father grieved full sore
He found his daughter in Riley's arms, drowned upon the shore

Collected by Ralph Vaughan Williams from George Hall in Hooton Roberts in 1907; sung by Coope Boyes and Simpson on Triple Echo, and the Roses and Thorns Choir in The Toilers' Gift concerts.

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 04:40 PM

Pharaoh's Army Got Drownded

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 06:23 AM

If you put @drowning in the search box it comes up with a few.

BTW - I think it would be an excellent fate for some people...

:DtG

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: The Doctor
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 07:20 AM

Hartlake Bridge, which is a great song, was written by Pete 'Blossom' Currie of Skinners Rats. Words and music on their website.
The Constant Lovers may or may not be the same as The Drowned Lovers.
Stow Brow is also known as the Drowned Sailor.

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 07:26 AM

I have announced "A muvver was washing her baby one night" as a bathing tragedy song!

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 08:19 AM

Pharaoh's army gets drownded here:

http://www.springsteenlyrics.com/lyrics/o/omarydontyouweep.php

References to many versions at Roger McGuinn's site:

http://www.reveries.com/folkden/oh_mary.html

More variants here:

http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/545-pharaohs-army-.aspx

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 08:29 AM

Edward in the Lowlands low - probably doesn't count, as he was murdered by his girl's parents

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: matt milton
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 08:41 AM

I just read the Kipling poem in question. Death by drowning didn't strike me as being the dominant theme. War, apocalypse and a general portrayal of Babylonian ruin struck me as more of a theme.

On that note, I would suggest Hamish Henderson's "Banks of Sicily":
http://sniff.numachi.com/pages/tiBKSICILY;ttBKSICILY.html

Or that darkest of whaler-ship songs, "Desolation":
http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=120604

Though maybe Six Dukes Went A Fishing might be appropriate, bearing it springs from the discovery of a drowned body:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Dukes_Went_a-Fishing

Oh of course New York Trader too, that has a sort of "Rime of the Ancient Mariner" quality to it:
http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/folk-song-lyrics/New_York_Trader.htm

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 08:42 AM

Can hardly believe this ~ have I missed it? ~ but can find no ref above to Sir Patrick Spens!

~M~

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 08:43 AM

Another spiritual - Little Moses

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 08:47 AM

"Shut up Lizzie, unless you've something to say to the point."

Sorry, forgot about the No Humour Rule...do apologise...

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: tijuanatime
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 08:50 AM

Drowning, with accompanying violence:

High Barbaree
Henry Martin

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 01:08 PM

pincher marten

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 01:31 PM

Irish song, "...for there's dark and cold waters in the lake of Cool Finn."

Not a soldier, just a lad who goes swimming early in the morning and loses his life.

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 05:39 PM

tijuanatime - excellent choices on the maritime warfare front (see also the Dolphin, & is Polly On The Shore disqualified because nobody is actually described as drowning?)

Jack - that's a terrific (group of) song(s); I think I need to hear several versions before I think of tackling it.

matt - hadn't thought of the New York Trader (or William Glenn); it could go well with Banks of Green Willow. I didn't know Six Dukes or Desolation - one really strange song, and one that's perhaps not overdue for revival (I guess the 'abolitionists' verse could be skipped).

Not sure what you mean about the Kipling, though - the narrator's saying that a lot of men have drowned fording the river, and he's particularly upset about this because his best friend was one of them. Very like "Big Muddy" with less of a happy ending.

Great thread!

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 05:41 PM

(Actually nobody drowns in the Dolphin, either. Never mind.)

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Nathan in Texas
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 08:30 PM

When I saw the thread title, I had a momentary vision of going under for the last time in a vast ocean of traditional songs.

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 03:03 AM

Go to the ballads thread "Lord Gregory"

then there is the Australian children's song "The Sparrow and the Emu's Egg"

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 03:38 AM

That faint thudding sound you can hear is me kicking myself for forgetting "Lord Gregory".

Nathan - what a way to go!

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 04:42 AM

in the best possible taste:-

http://www.bigalwhittle.co.uk/id22.html

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Brian Peters
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 05:29 AM

Not really what Pip was looking for, but with a thread title like this, how come no-one's mentioned The Banks of Green Willow? The most poignant of the lot!

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 06:57 AM

Running Bear - well its traditional in our house.

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 07:26 AM

Perhaps you could contrast Banks of Green Willow with Canadee-i-o.

Two more songs about drowning (or not) sung by Nic Jones.

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 07:34 AM

Did the lady and the baby drown in "Banks of Green Willow" Brian? In the version that I know the captain is pretty confident that they will do so but it remains inconclusive.

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 07:41 AM

Death by drowning in traditional songs, eh? Sounds like a good way to go! Get yourself over to the National Sound Archive and dive in...

Otherwise - reminds me, we still haven't recorded the version of Ford o' Kabul River we worked up for Earthbound's Kipling with the Tradition show at Fylde this year. Actually based on my earlier - er - re-imagining in which an old colonel sits by a fireside of a wild English winter night in his gout racked dotage remembering the tragic events that swept half a regiment away... I trust my fellow 'Bounders will forgive me if, in the meantime, I put my old demo from 2008 up there on the Soundcloud page in its stead??

Ford O' Kabul River : Sedayne, November 2008

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 09:13 AM

Willie Moore

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 09:22 AM

Surely Willie Moore died of a broken heart? ~~ either in Montreal, or beside his true love's grave.

~M~

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 09:29 AM

And how about Oh My Darling Clementine? Which we always used to sing to Cwm Rhonda in the Old Durham City Folk Club, led in mighty chorus by our gaffa Ian McCulloch...

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 09:49 AM

"Desolation - one really strange song, and one that's perhaps not overdue for revival (I guess the 'abolitionists' verse could be skipped."

If you think it's really strange now, you should hear Ewan MacColl sing it in a bizarre Woody Guthrie-gone-Australian attempt at an american accent!

I've wondered about altering the abolitionists verse to this:

"The captains of whalers are abolitionists
They go in for amalgamation;
black or white, Jew, Portuguese â€"
all men are dogs on Desolation"

..or maybe even "the captain he's a liberal man/He goes in for... etc"

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 10:25 AM

In the village of Kilgory there's a deep stream flowing by
On her marriage day at midnight she drowned with her soldier boy
In the cottage there is music, you can hear her father say:
Step it out, Mary, my fine daughter, Sunday is your wedding day

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 10:30 AM

Sometimes I live in the country, Sometimes I live in town
Sometimes I have a great notion To jump into the river and drown

Irene goodnight, Irene goodnight,
Goodnight Irene, goodnight Irene
I'll see you in my dreams

The Titanic

Husbands and wives,
Little children lost their lives
Wasn't it sad when the great ship went down

Wasn't that a Mighty Storm (Galveston 1900)

They had two trains loaded With people trying to leave town
Tracks gave way to the water now And all of those people drowned

Louisiana 1927 by Randy Newman, though I think the chorus is traditional

The river rose all day, The river rose all night
Some people got lost in the flood, Some people got away alright
The river have busted through clear down to Plaquemines
Six feet of water in the streets of Evangeline

Louisiana, Louisiana
They're tryin' to wash us away, They're tryin' to wash us away

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: GUEST,John from "Elsie`s Band"
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 11:00 AM

The Doctor. The "Hartlake Bridge" song that I had in mind was the one handed down by the oral tradition in the travellers commumity. A search of that song on the internet will give chapter, verse and sung examples.

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: Brian Peters
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 11:07 AM

Did the lady and the baby drown in "Banks of Green Willow" Brian? In the version that I know the captain is pretty confident that they will do so but it remains inconclusive.

The English versions tend to be a bit inconclusive, if not garbled, Dave. Sometimes she's last seen swimming towards the aforementioned Banks, but in my version she's to be buried there (the coffin, or nails, of "gold shining yellow" providing a convenient half rhyme).

Subject: RE: Death by drowning in traditional songs
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 11:44 AM

Banks of Green Willow = Child #24, Bonnie Annie.

She is seen swimming away; then it is promised that she shall have a coffin made of the gold that does shine yellow and that she shall be buried on Banks of Green Willow. But whether she is drowned, or even actually dead, is indeed left uncertain.

You will find it on my youtube channel.

~M~