Tech: New generation room heaters

Subject: Tech: New generation room heaters
From: MarkS
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 06:58 PM

Been reading the ads and circulars about the so called new generation of space/room heaters. They say they will use very little electricity and cut your oil/gas bills dramatically.
A bit costly, but if they work as claimed it would be worthwhile.
Claim to be made by Amish, etc, or adverted by a famous "This Old House" host - that brand is "Eden Pure," and our local
Tractor Supply has their favorite brand too.
So - before we spend a lot of money, does anybody here have any experience with these appliances?
Your reviews and opinions would be appreciated.
Thanks
Mark

Subject: RE: Tech: New generation room heaters
From: MarkS
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 06:59 PM

Sorry - guess this should be below the line. Help please!

Subject: RE: Tech: New generation room heaters
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 12:26 AM

ANY electric heater (except for a heat pump is 100% efficient.THey can heat you in two ways: by direct radiation (that's where you face the glowing element or bulb)or by warming the airand blowing it around the room. Most do a combination of both modes.
For a predominantly radiant heater, you want the physically pargest size you can find---this minimizes hot spots. For a convection heater, you want the one that moves the most air. Brands don't make much difference.

Subject: RE: Tech: New generation room heaters
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 03:27 AM

I've read that those "Amish" heaters don't work anywhere near as well as the advertising claims. I can't remember where I read that, though! I also remember wondering why the Amish, who do not use electricity, would be building electric heaters.

Subject: RE: Tech: New generation room heaters
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 08:08 AM

The CABINETS are Amish made, not the heater parts. And the Amish are anxious to get the units to you because they might only be paid for what's sold. The units would NOT be loaded into "family" buggies anymore than you'd use your car to haul furniture and things...trucks pick stuff up.

The Amish do use electricity IF such use is approved by their local bishop...usually it is used for such things as refrigerating milk before it is picked up, not in the house. Nor do they scorn modern medicine.

Skilled woodworkers are as uncommon among the Amish as they are among the non-Amish. Ask any Amish friend you have.

Remember, "Amish" is a set of religious beliefs, freely chosen. They are not some separate race or, worse, a tourist gimmick.

I speak from 28+ years working in Amish country of Geauga County, Ohio and the areas in and around Elkhart County, Indiana -- where I had and have Amish friends.

Subject: RE: Tech: New generation room heaters
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 08:15 AM

I have seen the ads and the claims and would love to hear from someone who has used one as well.
Space heaters cause so many fires. The pictures of the kids playing checkers on top of the unit (not wood, right?) freaked me out.

Subject: RE: Tech: New generation room heaters
From: bobad
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 08:36 AM

Good info here Consumer Affairs.Com

"According to the ads, the Amish Fireplace produces an "amazing" 5,119 BTU. However, "any 1500 watt heater will provide that amount of BTU, so there is nothing really 'amazing' about that from an engineering standpoint," said Dr. Fiona Doyle, Professor of Materials Science and Engineering at the University of California, Berkeley.

"Whether a space heater costs $40.00 or $300.00, 1500 watts cannot magically be converted into more BTU. The maximum amount of heat energy is 1500 watts and it cannot produce more than that," Dr. Doyle said."

Subject: RE: Tech: New generation room heaters
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 09:09 AM

But for the same wattage, some heaters do seem to produce more useful heat than others.

I don't use it often as we have C/H but I like the cheap little ceramic oscillating fan heater I've got in this room. Heats up quickly, distributes the heat well in this room space, thermostatically controlled.

Subject: RE: Tech: New generation room heaters
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 09:19 AM

But for the same wattage, some heaters do seem to produce more useful heat than others.

Useful heat as opposed to....?
1 kWh of electrical energy converts to 1 kWh of heat energy in any electric heater.
Radiants may convert some into light, but that which does not go out the window still ends up as heat in the room.

Subject: RE: Tech: New generation room heaters
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 09:39 AM

'1 kWh of electrical energy converts to 1 kWh of heat energy in any electric heater'

That assumes that heaters are 100% efficient. No heater is.

Subject: RE: Tech: New generation room heaters
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 09:45 AM

Keith asks Useful heat as opposed to....?

Keith notes: Radiants may convert some into light, but that which does not go out the window still ends up as heat in the room.

Subject: RE: Tech: New generation room heaters
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 09:47 AM

(actually I think it's mostly a matter of heat distribution)

Subject: RE: Tech: New generation room heaters
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 09:53 AM

Peter, all electrical heaters are 100% efficient.
Jon, that was a joke!
A 1000W radiant might give 10W of red light of which only say 0.5% might strike window glass, of which some will refect back anyway.
No human could detect such a discrepancy.
I doubt it would even be measurable.

Subject: RE: Tech: New generation room heaters
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 09:56 AM

X posted Jon.
I agree about varying distribution.

Subject: RE: Tech: New generation room heaters
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 09:58 AM

As I said after, Keith, I think it's a matter of heat distribution. And I'll add heat losses, eg. through roof.

I've had 2 bar 2KW radiant heaters that you have to practically sit on top of to feel any warmth (and then you burn...).

Subject: RE: Tech: New generation room heaters
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 09:59 AM

And I've just posted with you, Keith..

Subject: RE: Tech: New generation room heaters
From: gnu
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 04:35 PM

Do you mean the infrared heaters that use electromagnetic radition transfer?

I was at two stores in the past month and saw two guys returning them and saying they sucked.

Subject: RE: Tech: New generation room heaters
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 02:05 PM

What the heck is "electromagnetic radiation transfer"?

It sounds like a term somebody invented to make something ordinary (radiation) sound newfangled.

Subject: RE: Tech: New generation room heaters
From: gnu
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 04:56 PM

I am sure JiK could explain this much better that I but I think the new heaters "transfer" the heat to nearby objects by electromagnetic radiation transfer. Kinda like a microwave heats up stuff but with infrared light, BUT, don't quote me on accounta I really don't know a whole lot about them except that several hundred dollars for a 1500 watt heater seems excessive to me so I never bothered to learn about them. Plus, they come in big boxes and surely they must be better than 1500 watt fan force ceramic heaters that come in small boxes for 10% of the price. BUT, I could be wrong.

Subject: RE: Tech: New generation room heaters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 04:39 AM

"If you build it, they will come" (Field of dreams)

"If you market it, some sucker will buy it"

Subject: RE: Tech: New generation room heaters
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 02:41 PM

What folks don't realize is that it's all a matter of keeping skin temperature at an optimum for comfort. Radiant heaters can heat the skin directly, but if they don't have enough surface area, the concentrate the heat into hot spots. Convection heaters, on the other hans, have to heat the air which, in turn , warms the skin.
The skin will lose heat, through radiation to any cold surface it faces. Which is why the easiest way to stay comfortable is often to
simply block off those cold surfaces with things like drapes.
If anyone's interested in the subject of thermal comfort,a Danish engineer named Fanger has done a lot of work in the field. Googling "Thermal Comfort" can be an instructive exercise.

Subject: RE: Tech: New generation room heaters
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 09:30 PM

My son made an interesting observation a few years back, while he was a teen. He asked me why governments were encouraging people in northern climates to use fluorescent bulbs. To save energy, as they are more efficient, and give off less heat, I said. He quipped back, but what's the problem with bulbs giving off heat, our house would not be as cold in the winter.:)

Subject: RE: Tech: New generation room heaters
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 09:46 PM

Rap is right...

The Amish hate electricity so what the hell that gonna know about it???

Here's the deal: There are no free lunches...

B~

Subject: RE: Tech: New generation room heaters
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 05:03 AM

"electromagnetic radiation transfer"?

Sounds like you don't really understand the principles of the trans-perambulation of pseudo-cosmic anti-matter in a flux medium!