M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4

Subject: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 12:49 PM

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/378838_10150414567726573_633846572_8847390_675441681_n.jpg

Vic Smith posts this then hurries to his bomb shelter before another battle in the Mudcat MacColl Wars breaks out.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 12:51 PM

thanks, vic, I will look forward to listening

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 03:59 PM

Sounds very interesting - but philosophically flawed - is there really a way that "folk song should be sung"?

I will ahve to try to remember to record it for detailed study.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 04:42 PM

I attended a weekend workshop run by Ewan and Peggy ... more years ago now than I care to remember. They presented an approach to the singing of folk songs based upon their knowledge of traditional song, voice production techniques, ideas about performance gained from Ewan's theatrical background, Peggy's ideas about accompaniment etc., etc., etc. I don't recall any "should" element.

I have to say, though, that it was all very interesting and stimulating and it was an important formative experience for me.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim McLean
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 05:08 PM

Did Martin ever sing in the Singers's club? In the early 60s I visited both the Troubadour and The Singers's club in the Pinder of Wakefield but I can't remember seeing Martin there.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 08:43 PM

I dont think he did

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 03:55 AM

"Did Martin ever sing in the Singers's club? "
Martin did sing at 'The Singers' - once, I think; he certainly was around occasionally in the Pindar of Wakefield days.
"philosophically flawed"
I hope he is not going to add to the myth and propose that anybody in the Critics Group suggested that there was a correct way that "folk song should be sung" - nobody ever did. The Group came into being when people on the scene asked MacColl to take classes.
He refused, and instead set up a self-help group to examine the technical and artistic problems of singing and the various ways to tackle them. It covered various wider areas - research, repertoire... even acting, but (wrongly, to my mind) never attempted to spread its influence outside the group, apart from encouraging the setting up of other self-help groups.
Shimrod's description of Ewan and Peggy's seminars more or less sums up the work covered by the group.
In my experience it covered ground-breaking aspects of singing and it's a great waste that none of the work was made more public so it could have been discussed honestly and perhaps borrowed from.
Though far from perfect, the work of the Group was useful for me as a singer for as long as I was a singer and many of the basic techniques that evolved still work forty years later, as rusty a singer as I now am.
For the record, recordings of several hundred group meetings are housed at The Charles Parker archive in Birmingham Central Library; digitised and open for public access - as far as I know.
As I probably won't get to listen to it here in Ireland I would very much appreciate a recording of the programme - will happily pass on the script of the talk I gave on the Group at the symposium to celebrate MacColl's 70th birthday in 1986.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: JohnH
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 04:53 AM

I used to go to the Pindar regularly and he was there fairly often unless my memory is failing at last!

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 04:59 AM

I don't think we should read too much into the programme title. I guess the idea of the programme was proposed and someone in the production office was given a brief to come up with a title, which they did. It could be tongue in cheek as much as a suggestion.

I don't mean to suggest singing with tongue in cheek!

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 05:42 AM

Thanks for the heads-up Vic. I hope we can avoid any wars at least before it's broadcast!

Will happily send you a recording Jim but might need a reminder nearer the date.

Pete.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 05:57 AM

Jim,

I don't quite understand your remark "when I was a singer". Do you no longer sing? or did you mean when you used to put on a performance in front of an audience?
I am NOT looking for an argument just clarification on a minor point.
Personally I never stop singing in or out of the bath.

Hoot

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 06:11 AM

Sorry Hoot - perhaps I should have said when I was singing publicly.
I am a firm advocate of not going in front of an audience without preparation - rubber duck excluded - though things on the up-and-up singing-wise here lately.
Thanks Burton - much appreciated and will remind you later.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 08:16 AM

Jim, I prefer to listen to radio 4 via the computer, via listen again, Iam assuming it will be available

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 08:23 AM

I wonder if they'll decide - gosh we did make a mistake! if only we'd been a bit more like Roger Whittaker or daniel O'Donnel - more people would have listened to our folksongs.

Aren't we silly asses....!

No I can't see it happening, either.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 09:00 AM

Dick

Yes it says on the blurb it'll be on the iPlayer for 7 days after each broadcast.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 09:19 AM

Dick
"Jim, I prefer to listen to radio 4..."
Thanks Dick; will be away from home and computer free (unless I can slip one into the luggage) - anyway, I tend to keep and archive such programmes (and have done so for decades-if anybody is ever looking for something specifically - feel free to ask) and I understand that you can't do download here with Beeb broadcasts.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 09:27 AM

Tues 3 Jan 11.30 am
Sat. 7 Jan   2.30 pm

repeated on BBC ipod for 7 days after each broadcast

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 10:08 AM

Most BBC IPlayer programmes are not downloadable. The best way to preserve them is by digitally recording them. There is a thread currently running on Mudcat about recording Iplayer programmes using a digital recorder. (Sorry, I can't recall the title, or the content.)

However, that is the way I do it. I simply run an audio cable from the computer's headphone socket to the line-in socket on the recorder, then copy the programme back to the computer and carry out any editing/amplifying that might be necessary.

I dare say somebody will object, on the grounds of loss of fidelity or whatever. But when it's just for archive/storage purposes, the sound quality will be more than adequate.

Anyway, I'm at a loss to understand what all the fuss has been about with the Critics Group. I was never a part of MacColl's circle, so I can't really offer an opinion. But it seems to me that all he and Peggy were doing was offering the folk equivalent of classical music master classes.

I don't know whether that made him guilty of authoritarianism. But imagine turning up at a Rostropovitch class and telling the master you were going to ignore his teaching completely and play all the great cello compositions the way you wanted to play them.

I suspect it would be quite a while before the surgeons were able to dig the instrument out of your anus.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 10:24 AM

thanks Kevin

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 10:26 AM

Owen Woodsen wrote:-
"I simply run an audio cable from the computer's headphone socket to the line-in socket on the recorder, then copy the programme back to the computer"

Just what I do - recording it in .wav format on my Zoom H4 recorder and if there is any loss of quality compared with a radio broadcast when I playback through my main sound system then these ears don't detect it.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 12:32 PM

All audio broadcasts on BBC iPlayer are available for downloading via get_iplayer or RadioDownloader or other apps. of that ilk. You wont even need to use ExpatShield first.

They might then be uploaded to RadioArchive.cc

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 12:59 PM

Owen"
"the folk equivalent of classical music master classes. "
Not the case.
As I said, MacColl refused to take classes; instead he developed a workshop situation where every member was expected to participate in discussing each others' performances and attempting to assist by suggesting ways to improve the singing - in this way everybody benefitted from every sessions, whether it was you being worked on or not.
MacColl acted as chairman, summing up and pulling together the various suggestions of practical work, but to my knowledge he never taught (I have listened to all the available recordings, right back to the beginning of the Group, so I beilve this to have always been the case).
The evenings often ended with talks by MacColl on aspects arising out of the work, but, while usually being the most enjoyable parts of te evening, these were not classes.
Peggy took part only as a member of the group, though she did give classes on instrumental accompaniment to individuals, when requested.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: tonyteach1
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 01:38 PM

I went to the Bull and Mouth in the early 70s and spoke to the great man explaining that I had started classical singing lessons. He was quite amiable as we discussed differences in style. I enjoyed his ballad singing immensely and the marvellous nights he could remember all the words were fantastic. I did not and do not share his political views but enjoyed the peformances.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 02:01 PM

i-sound from Abbysmedia is excellent for £30 or so, it seems to create a "virtual" stereo mix which my PC does not have.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 02:59 PM

I thought this might turn tricky sooner or later but this took me by surprise:


"i-sound from Abbysmedia is excellent for £30 or so, it seems to create a "virtual" stereo mix which my PC does not have."

L in C#

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 03:07 PM

Can I correct a couple of things from the programme publicity.
The Critics Group did not break up either because of MacColl's "autocracy", nor did it break up "acrimoniously", as is often claimed.
At the beginning of 1971 MacColl announced that he intended to concentrate on theatre work - his life-long interest.
He invited us all to either participate in setting up an agit-prop theatre group, or to become members of 'The London Singers Workshop' which had been established a few years earlier by Sandra Kerr. It was proposed that the Workshop be run by Terry Yarnell, in my opinion, the best singer from The Critics Group.
This was, in practical terms, the end of The Critics Group as a singing workshop.
The break-up was amicable - a theatre group was set up using a gym in Camden Town as a movement venue and The Union Tavern as a rehersal/performance venue.
As far as I know, the theatre group had no name, though 'Big Red Eye' was once mooted.
A year later the drama group broke up acrimoniously; we were not involved then so we have no details - we do know that MacColl had what was described as 'a breakdown' over the breakup.
London Singers Workshop lasted for 20 years as a working group, for a short period with the assistance of MacColl and Seeger, who came along to give suport and advice.
MacColl could occasionally be demanding to work with; personally there were some members of the C.G. I would have been far more reticent to express criticism of the work than I would Ewan, who I always found approachable.
I look back on my time spent with the Group as the most enjoyable and formative period of my life - as far as I'm concerned - my thanks to Ewan, wherever his ashes may be blowing.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 03:23 PM

Thanks Jim, I appreciate your input into the discussions about The Critics group and about Ewan.
I am really pleased that you are here to let us know what really happened.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 04:26 AM

Jim C sums up accurately from actual experience. Although I doubt if it will stop the inaccuracies circulating. Thanks for being here to add the facts when needed.

I'm inclined to agree with your view on TY, Jim.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 04:59 AM

Jim, a casual peek at The Critics Group in Wikipedia reveals:

In 1972 the principal performing members of the Critics Group broke away from MacColl's leadership and formed the left-wing theatre group Combine, which produced weekly events in an east London pub, the Knave of Clubs. They created songs, plays and other events in a similar manner to the Critics, culminating in the Vietnam Victory Show of April 1975 which celebrated the final liberation of Saigon.

Is this the theatre group to which you refer in your previous post, or is it a different set? Or (knowing Wikipedia), is the article flawed? Just curious. I went to Wiki to see who the members of the Group included - your name's there - and realised that I'd heard of some of them, but not others. Charles Parker I encountered at the BBC in my time there.

The article also mentions Christmas concerts at the New Merlins Cave in London - I pub I played jazz in regularly in the late 60s.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 05:30 AM

That's the Group Will - From memory John Faulkner, Sandra Kerr, Terry Yarnell, Donal Maguire, Mike Rosen, Ron Elliot... I seem to recall that Doc Rowe and Dolores Keane were involved for a time. Some of these were never CG members but had become involved via the Festival of Fools.
By the time they broke away, the Group had ceased to exist as a singing workshop and, as far as I knew, no longer used the name.
I think I listed a total of 50 coming and going CG members of the for my symposium talk; there was always a hard core of around a dozen people.
The Festival of Fools was one of the first ventures as a performing group - it was a 'Living Newspaper' (a format used by agit-prop theatres throughout Europe) consisting of songs and sketches written by MacColl based on newspaper cuttings collected throughout the year - mainly political. The first one was in 1965 (?) - opened on Boxing Night and ran for 12 performences each year - incredibly hard work, but very satisfying.
Pat and I were regulars at the Sunday afternoon jazz at The Cave - probably heard you there (you didn't used to be Bruce Turner, did you? - if so, send an autograph - one of my jazz heroes).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 06:04 AM

Thanks for the confirmation, Jim. We must have bumped into each other at the Cave sometime! No, unfortunately, I never was Bruce Turner, or John Chilton either - but I did weekday evenings there now and then. Travelled on the Central Line from Queensway carrying a small amp and a guitar...

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 02:15 PM

I thought that Faulkner was a very good singer.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: MartinRyan
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 03:19 PM

Still is!

Regards

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 04:12 AM

Was John Faulkener the guy playing guitar on stuff like North Sea Holes?

Whoever that was, i always liked that work.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 02:53 AM

John Newsham New Zealand.

I heard Terry Yarnell sing at the Union Tavern in Feb 1973 and again at Peggy's 'new' Club in Highgate (?) in June/July 1990.

I think he is one of the best singers I have heard anywhere.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 03:33 AM

John Newsham - was that the answer to my question about who played the guitar, or was that you telling us who are?

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 06:56 AM

"I think he is one of the best singers I have heard anywhere. "
Me too - especially ballads.
"Was John Faulkener the guy playing guitar on stuff like North Sea Holes?"
Which recording - he and Sandra Kerr accompanied loads of songs - Fitzroy Coleman played guitar on Singing the Fishing and John, Sandra, Peggy and Jack Warshaw all did guitar accs on 'World of Ewan and Peggy' vol 2 which included North Sea Holes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 10:58 AM

well, it is all a matter of opinion, Jim are you able to provide any clips of Terry Yarnell.I only saw him do a live gig once, that was at Groombridge folk club about 1973, with a couple of other members of the critics group.
I remember booking Faulkner and Dolores Keane at a club i was running in the late seventies, I was very impressed by both of them
i would like to hear   more of Yarnell, as a result of your recommendation.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 11:47 AM

He might be heard here http://folkcatalogue.wordpress.com/2009/05/18/1966-the-critics-group-a-merry-progress-to-london/

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 12:09 PM

"The Lawyer's Lamentation for Charing Cross" from the above is brilliant - sung by Terry Yarnell.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 01:32 PM

Fare thee well old stump!

Excellent.

It was Terry's tracks on the 2 London LPs that stood out for me, although the rest is a close run thing.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: zozimus
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 02:23 PM

"North Sea Holes" recorded on the Critic Groups album "As we Were Sailing" lists Peggy Seeger and Sandra Kerr as guitarists and John Faulkner on mandolin, with Ewan on vocals.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 03:18 PM

From the depths of somewhere, I thought it was John Faulkner on a 12 string. But I get mixed up. I also remember being worried at the time of Suez whether we'd run out of oil paint for my paint by numbers kit. Luckily the oil shortage never bit that deep.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 23 Dec 11 - 11:28 AM

Nice to hear from Jim, I, too, enjoyed the Critics work & share his view of Bruce Turner, great with the Critics, Humph, Wally and the Jump Band as well.

RtS

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Dec 11 - 03:11 PM

More and, possibly more contentous information about the prgramme here http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b018wy4j

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Dec 11 - 03:27 PM

was it his intention to drag it into the mainstream?
The Spinners [1959 to 1989] were already doing this

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Kev Boyd
Date: 28 Dec 11 - 06:52 PM

I'm going to record the programme and post it on SoundCloud so anyone who misses it (or doesn't get to listen on iPlayer) can catch up at any time. And it'll be downloadable so - as is all the other Martin Carthy content (mostly radio programmes) I've posted previously. I'll post the ink here when it's sorted.

For what it's worth, I record directly from iPlayer using Audacity on my macbook. Audacity is free to download (Google it) and can also be used on PC and Linux. There's no need for external recorders or cables and it's simple to use. It is a bit 'clunky' if you're trying to clean up poor recordings or do anything other than fairly basic editing but for archiving recordings that are already half decent it's perfect.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 02:25 PM

How Folk Songs Should Be Sung - Martin Carthy

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b018wy4j

Immediately after the success of the BBC Radio Ballads, Ewan MacColl set about the Herculean task of trying to drag British folk music into mainstream culture. Frustrated by the dreary amateurishness of folk song performance, he decided to establish his own centre of excellence to professionalise the art. He called it "The Critics Group".

MacColl tutored select artists "to sing folk songs the way they should be sung" and to think about the origins of what they were singing. He introduced Stanislavski technique and Laban theory into folk performance and explored style, content and delivery.

BBC producer Charles Parker recorded these sessions to aid group analysis. 40 years on, the tapes have come to light. For the first time, a clear sound picture can be constructed of this influential group in action. Former group members Peggy Seeger, Sandra Kerr, Frankie Armstrong, Richard Snell, Brian Pearson and Phil Colclough recount six frantic years of rehearsing, performing and criticising each other. They recall the powerful hold that Ewan MacColl exerted which was eventually to lead to the collapse of the group in acrimony and blame.

Presenter Martin Carthy MBE, now an elder statesman of the British folk music scene, shared many of McColl's ambitions but didn't join the group himself. He listens to the recordings and assesses the legacy of MacColl's controversial experiment.

Producers: Genevieve Tudor and Chris Eldon Lee
A Culture Wise Production for BBC Radio 4.

Tue 3 Jan 201211:30 BBC Radio 4
Sat 7 Jan 201215:30 BBC Radio 4

and later on iPlayer

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 04:29 AM

For the record - Peggy Seeger summed up her/Ewan's/The Singers Club's/The Critics Group's "correct way to sing" here (sorry - don't know how to use the blue clicky - maybe Vic can give a lesson sometime - the last ones he gave me were extremely useful)
Jim Carroll

Click here

----------Link simplified and clicky added. JoeClone

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: autolycus
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 06:17 AM

Jim

1. Copy the url
2. Click on 'Make a link' at the foot of your post.
3. At the top of the resulting form pste the url.
4. On the same form, type in the words you want to use in your post to signify the limk
5. On the form, click where it says 'Make the link'.