Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafemuddy

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Treasure Island

Dave the Gnome 02 Jan 12 - 06:13 PM
Big Al Whittle 02 Jan 12 - 06:37 PM
MGM·Lion 02 Jan 12 - 06:47 PM
Padre 02 Jan 12 - 06:47 PM
kendall 02 Jan 12 - 07:23 PM
Big Al Whittle 02 Jan 12 - 08:04 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Jan 12 - 12:28 AM
Leadfingers 03 Jan 12 - 02:47 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jan 12 - 04:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jan 12 - 04:58 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jan 12 - 05:20 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jan 12 - 05:33 AM
Gibb Sahib 03 Jan 12 - 06:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jan 12 - 06:52 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jan 12 - 07:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jan 12 - 08:00 AM
GUEST,Grishka 03 Jan 12 - 08:15 AM
fat B****rd 03 Jan 12 - 08:20 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jan 12 - 08:25 AM
Charley Noble 03 Jan 12 - 08:39 AM
fat B****rd 03 Jan 12 - 08:48 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jan 12 - 09:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jan 12 - 12:46 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Jan 12 - 02:05 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jan 12 - 02:43 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Jan 12 - 02:46 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jan 12 - 02:52 PM
Stilly River Sage 03 Jan 12 - 03:24 PM
Tunesmith 03 Jan 12 - 03:49 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Jan 12 - 03:53 PM
fat B****rd 03 Jan 12 - 04:02 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Jan 12 - 05:03 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jan 12 - 05:20 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Jan 12 - 06:19 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Jan 12 - 05:23 PM
Stilly River Sage 04 Jan 12 - 06:13 PM
MGM·Lion 04 Jan 12 - 11:48 PM
MGM·Lion 05 Jan 12 - 12:03 AM
Stilly River Sage 05 Jan 12 - 12:16 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Jan 12 - 12:25 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Jan 12 - 12:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Jan 12 - 01:00 PM
MGM·Lion 05 Jan 12 - 01:37 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Jan 12 - 05:43 PM
MGM·Lion 06 Jan 12 - 12:11 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Jan 12 - 12:43 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 Jan 12 - 10:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Jan 12 - 12:47 PM
MGM·Lion 06 Jan 12 - 01:03 PM
Big Al Whittle 07 Jan 12 - 10:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Jan 12 - 10:30 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:









Subject: Treasure Island
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 06:13 PM

Not sure if this shouldl be above or below the line - I'll let someone else decide :-)

Anyone else watched or due to watch Sky's new interpretation of 'Treasure Island'? I just finished the second part and must say I enjoyed it a lot. Eddie Izzard's Long John Silver was great as was Donald Sutherland's Flint. Can't recall who played Ben Gunn but he was very good too. All in all, in my opinion, well acted and produced. Some wonderful scenery and, where I think this may live upstairs, some strange interpretations of seafaring music. 15 mean on a dead man's chest obviously - not done jolly like I have heard it before but quite scary! 'Lowlands' in the first half was unlike I had heard before. Lots of fiddle music in minor keys providing atmospheric lift.

All in all, a good romp. Without needing to think to much. Just right for the hangover season:-)

Cheers

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 06:37 PM

Yes I heard Lowlands in the Brimingham Rep productio0n of a couple of years ago. I think its a folksong the toffs have heard of,

Whether its being used right - you'd have to ask someone like old Stan Huigill or Eric Illot. they used to know all about the different shanties and what jobs they were used for onboard.

Someone like Brynn Terfel would do Lowlands nicely. I love the Corries version. Sort of lugubrious. the same way all these operatic types do Shenendoah.

As to Treasure Island I've started discussing it on facebook.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 06:47 PM

Why all these adaptors consider that they can write better dialogue and contrive better plots than the original authors I cannot imagine. There have been two quite tolerable mini-series these past few days: & while both were quite dramatic and reasonably entertaining, I cannot but think that to flag them onscreen as Great Expectations by Charles Dickens and Treasure island by Robert Louis Stevenson invites consideration by the Director Of Public Prosecutions with a view to bringing charges under the Trade Descriptions Act.

~Michael~
Official Legendary Pedant


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Padre
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 06:47 PM

Arrgh!! Them as dies 'll be the lucky ones, matey!!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: kendall
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 07:23 PM

...you git down in thee 'ole, and I'll hand 'er down...

I've seen three versions and none of them come close to the book.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 08:04 PM

Know what you mean Mike. And look at the way these buggers have desecrated Sherlock holmes.

They could turn the bleeding Tower of London into a mosque and I wouldn't give a toss, but Treasure Island. I think Stevenson might have given us a hint if he knew that Billy Bones and george Merry were coloured.

Probably some cockney git.

George Merry/Chuck Berry - its rhymming slang.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 12:28 AM

Important costume point ~~ all the gentlemen (Squire, Dr, Captain) would have worn wigs at any time they appeared dressed in public.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 02:47 AM

And to keep it 'Music' orientated , wasnt Treasure Island where the pirate song 'Fifteen Men on a Dead Mans Chest' first apeared in print ?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 04:26 AM

As I [official legendary pedant] have pointed out on other threads, the '15 Men' song sung explicitly as a capstan shanty [see beginning of ch 10] with Silver as shantyman, well known to the late Billy Bones and which the crew describe as 'the old one', along with any shanty singing intro'd in dramatisations &c, is an anachronism. Action of TI can be dated to 1750s-60s [Battle of Fontenoy, at which Dr Livesey, still a youngish man, had served, 1745]; but Hugill gives earliest instances of what can reasonably be regarded as shanty-singing in the Merchant Service as 2nd decade of C19.

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 04:58 AM

I think that may go oddly to providing the latest offering with a bit more credibility M! Both 15 men and Lowlands were not 'sung' as such during this latest offering. It was far more a chant than a song and, with all due respect to Hugill, I cannot imagine the principle of Shanties sprang into life during the early 1800s. I can well believe collecting them started then and I do tend to believe the learned Mr H on a lot of things but I would always maintain that if a chant helped people work - they would have done it from the word go.

I appreciate that you have explicitely said 'reasonaby regared as shanty singing' but neither 'song' in the the latest TV series could be 'reasonabaly regarded' either. So, just maybe, the producers were aiming for a bit of realism? No? Ah well...

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 05:20 AM

I should be more convinced about that, Dave, if they had got the wigs [see above] right. Funny thing is, the scriptwriter [whose identity appears to be a profound secret ~ just you try & find it out] knew about gentlemen wearing wigs ~ 'you would look funny in a wig' said Silver's wife to him at one point as he went on about his ambitions; but there was no sign of one at any point on any gentleman's head, tho no gentleman could be seen without one mid-C18, and the novel refers several times to Dr Livesey's eccentric habit of taking his off when worried. I agree the chants were rather tuneless; but the anachronism I ref'd above was rather RLS's than the adaptors': he has much ref to the Captain's (Billy Bones') singing, later repeated at the capstan bars. Hugill does not suggest that shanties sprang from nowhere, and cites much precedence from earlier periods; but his chronology appears pretty well-informed, IMO.

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 05:33 AM

Perhaps worth quoting here the passage at beginning of chapter X ~~

"Now, Barbecue, tip us a stave," cried one voice.
"The old one," cried another.
"Ay ay, mates," said Long John ... and at once broke out in the air and words I knew so well:-
    "Fifteen men on the dead man's chest" ~
And then the whole crew bore chorus:~
    "Yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum!"
And at the third "ho!" drove the bars before them with a will.


Pretty explicitly a piece of shanty singing precisely as described by Hugill; with an "air", not a "chant". Agreed?

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 06:26 AM

Thanks for spotting another anachronous portrayal of "Lowlands." I can add it to my list of interest in how it is being used these days in which, as Big Al says, it seems "the toffs have heard of" it.

If anyone is crazy enough (I doubt), you can read my rambling run-down of information on the "Lowlands" chanty here:

Lowlands Away (historiography)

Keep in mind that this is looking at just one song, the chronological "warp." When one starts to look at the "weft"--the combination of all the stuff going on at various times--a better picture of chanties emerges...where the thoughts of "Well, maybe it *could* have been *this* way, in this one case, you never know" starts to appear less *likely* and more like idle speculation. Imagine all you want...green men could have brought chanties from the Mars in spaceships...but without a solid *base* of evidence (i.e. more than just an imagined story of one song/lyric), it's just yarns. There's more that's been considered in the dating of these things than just "This is the earliest we found something noted down."

We have access to more historical information today than Hugill or his predecessors had, and I think he may have even been shooting a little too early with that dating of chanties--on board ship at least. Mind you, in Hugill's and my definition, a chanty isn't just any work song on a sea vessel (it's a specific style/repertoire/genre/movement), which may be the cause of some confusion.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 06:52 AM

I'm fine with and will agree with any interpretation - The work in question is a work of fiction after all :-) I am reminded of an erstwhile collegue joining in a discussion on 'The Lord of the Rings'.

"I don't know how you can read that rubbish." She said. "All made up stuff about elves and goblins."

"Well," I replied, trying to understand her point of view, "what sort of literature do you like?"

"Watership Down."

She wasn't joking :-)

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 07:12 AM

Ay, Dave: and what a fine story. But, while some fiction is fantasy, not all is. Sometimes an impression of reality or authenticity is aimed at. RLS aimed at it in TI, it seems to me, but got the shanty bit wrong. The tv adaptors got the shanty bits & the wigs wrong ...

And why the wilful and perverse departures from Stevenson's characterisations? Why has his stout, good-hearted but bumbling old fool of a squire become a venal, avaricious, handsome young tyrant? His level-headed Doctor with a heroic military background a cowardly dodger? His nervous but enterprising maroon an armed American figure of terror? Jim's mother half way to a mental defective? ... What did they think would be gained?

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 08:00 AM

I can forgive Jim's mother. Anyone portraying a ghost in a toilet in Hogwarts should forever be known as not holding a full deck :-)

I am always in two minds as to accuracy in fiction - probably because two of my literary loves are fantasy and historical 'faction'. One writer whom I admire greatly and has sadly passed away is David Gemmel who did manage to combine the two quite well in his Alexander series. There are also the legends that blur the edges of both. Maybe Robin Hood realy did speak with an American Accent! Maybe in years to come someone on Mudcat will be having the discussion as to whether Billy the Kid realy did have the hind quarters of a goat:-)

Anyway - Fact, Fiction or Fantasy. If it is done well it is enjoyable.

Cheers

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 08:15 AM

TI (the novel) need not be "realistic", since it is a part of reality itself, as referred to in "Peter Pan", "Pirates of the Carribean" etc. Any new adaptation may or may not stick to the original or its historic foil, it will be judged by what new aspects it adds. I am disappointed by the "Pirates of the Carribean" and do not plan to watch the TI film at the moment.

MtheGM, you are probably right about the anachronism, but note the poetic density of the short passage you quoted. Not many novels for the youth were written in such a powerful language. The "shanty" function illustrates the disciplined collective effort of the pirates, contrasting their desolate characters reflected in the sinister lyrics. Poetic license must be granted.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: fat B****rd
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 08:20 AM

"Anyway - Fact, Fiction or Fantasy. If it is done well it is enjoyable."

Absolutely correct IMNSHO, DTG. Fuck wigs and chanties.
fB (who is still pissed off after being literally knocked off his feet by gales this mroining.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 08:25 AM

Hey FB - If you go round f***ing wigs and shanties I am not surprised Gale could knock you of your feet. You need to save your strength man!

:D


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 08:39 AM

Most of the verses for "Fifteen men on the Dead Man's Chest" (aka "Derelict") were of course composed years later by a newspaper man Young E. Allison as published in the Louisville Courier-Journal in 1891. The chorus evidently composed by Stevenson does appear in his book, © 1883.

"Dead Man's Chest" itself is reported to be a Caribbean island rendezvous of buccaneers and smugglers, in a book titled At Last by Charles Kingsley which Robinson credits as his source for the name.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: fat B****rd
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 08:48 AM

Dave, it was the most amazing blow I have ever had. I actually had to hang on to a lamp post for the duration!
Yours in good humour Charlie.
PS do you need Gale's number ?
PPS Confessional -I don't have Sky so I aint seen the new TI.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 09:59 AM

··Anyway - Fact, Fiction or Fantasy. If it is done well it is enjoyable.··
=====

A questionable assertion, DtG; and question-begging in that it presupposes some agreement as to what may be mutually accepted as 'done well': a description that cannot, IMO, be applied to a supposed adaptation lacking any perceptible fidelity to its declared original, or any intrinsic, internally consistent, rationale.

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 12:46 PM

A questionable assertion, DtG; and question-begging in that it presupposes some agreement as to what may be mutually accepted as 'done well'

Not at all, M. Why should it presuppose some mutual agreement? I am not in the slightest bit interested in the opinions of those I know nothing about. Well done, in this context, is therefore something that I consider to be well done. My thread. My rules:-)

As to supposed adaptations and perceptible fidelity. Well, all I can add to that is that Marmalade is a long word too...

:D tG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 02:05 PM

I at least, DtG, had the grace to include the formulation IMO in my posts ~~ one which yours most conspicuously lacked.

As to 'your thread, your rules' ~ I believe the hashes of OPs who have previously judged so ill as to make such impertinent and presposterous and presumptuous claims have been ofttimes settled on this forum...

~M~

So distressed that sesquipedalianism distresses your semantically delicate little tummy; monosyllables exclusively for you in future, I vow and swear: or hy-phens bet-ween the syl-lab-les if un-a-void-ab-le, like in the ick-le kid-dy com-ics...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 02:43 PM

Thank you M. I shall hold you to your vow one of these days as, judging by previous posts, I am sure that you will be compleletley unable to keep it. And I am so undistressed by any amount of verbal diarrhea that I doubt anyone could conceive how little your opinion mean to me. Sorry, but I am just being honest.

Please feel free to continue to post here if you like. It is my thread but I fully understand how much it means and I would do nothing to deny anyone the cheap little pleasures that some folk hold so dear. Do understand though that all I am saying is that I enjoy what I enjoy and, while others may not, I have never knowingly tried to state that my opinion is any better or worse than anyone else.

I repeat once again. Fact, Fiction or Fantasy. If it is done well it is enjoyable. I am sure that someone of your calibre will understand that I have no need to assert that this is my opinion. Apart from to a handful of people who simply look for fights. Not including youself in that group of course :-)

Cheers

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 02:46 PM

;-) right back 2U ~~ & a [slightly belated] Happy New Year!

❣~M~❣


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 02:52 PM

Thank you once again M. But I must point out that slighly has 2 syllables, belated has three and there was not a hyphen in sight. 2:05 to 2:46 is only 41 minutes and makes that the shortest new year vow I have ever seen.

Have good one yourself anyway:-)

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 03:24 PM

You're just lucky I haven't seen these films. I might start using citations from Foucault and Bakhtin to settle disputes - or make it worse.

Historical accuracy - it's subjective - what amount of time does and money does the costume department have to pull all of the parts together, but also, the decision by the film makers as to whether the wigs, high collars, short boots, waist coats, watch fobs, and snoods will really serve the drama for modern viewers.

It's an interesting thread about the use of the songs in the film, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was set up for sinister effect and not an aim at any sort of functionality or historical accuracy. I'm skeptical that many filmmakers have such interest.

SRS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Tunesmith
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 03:49 PM

The movie isn't very authentic!
Eddie Izzard didn't even once say, " A hah Jim lad!"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 03:53 PM

Absolutely, SRS ~~ think of the savings on the budget if they had all just worn t-shirts & jeans...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: fat B****rd
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 04:02 PM

Wouldn't that have made it 'River Island'?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 05:03 PM

Seriously, tho, SRS ~~ what on earth can you have meant about "historical accuracy [being] subjective"? I've read the words backwards, forwards, translated into 7 different languages, and set & played on the middle row of my D-major Anglo concertina. And I just can't see what you can possibly have meant by them. I mean ~~ is the fact that WWii began in September 1939 and not in March 2007 a 'subjective' judgment? If not, then what DID you mean?

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 05:20 PM

Having just watched the first of the new 'Sherlock' series I think I can understand what SRS means. I'll give it a try anyway.

Historical accuracy is as important as people feel they need. Which, as a personal feeling, is extremely subjective.

Back to the Sherlock comment I find that the stories that the beeb are currently showing, set in the modern day, are equaly as valid as Arthur Conan-Doyles originals. They are not authentic or accurate depictions. Neither are the recent films with Robert Downey. But they have something to say. It will not be to everyones tastes but they are non the worse for that.

By all means keep, enjoy and even revere the originals but enjoy the interpretations as well. There is room for all of them. I do believe I have said the same about folk song! If we insist that things must be done in the way they always have been we risk loosing a lot of creativity. Conversely we also risk some very poor interpretations. Just look at some early Hollywood histories! Anyway - How does the song go?

"Flowers are red and leaves they are green. There is no need to see flowers any other way that the way they always have been seen" Some people sadly beleive that :-(

But as to an Anglo Cocertina with a D row. An abomonation that should be cast into the pits of hell, sir! Mine is a genuine TRADITIONAL Lachenal with the middle row in C as it should be for ever after, Amen.

:D tG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 06:19 PM

I have one of those too, D ~~ so I got Crabbe to retune my second instrument to another key. They are both Lachenals. I used to have a Crabbe one, made for me, in F/B-flat; but I got a good offer for it and sold it. I once told Peter Bellamy that I had left him my instruments in my will; his, all-too-typical, response was "Hurry up & die then! You've got a D-major concertina, haven't you?" So I let him have it on permanent loan for the nonce, as he was the professional; it was the one carried on his coffin at his funeral, after which Jennie returned it to me. You will find both mine on my youtube channel ~ the C one on, e.g., Sweet Lovely Nancy, the D on Our Good Ship Lies in Harbour.

So, enough awready with your 'abominations' ~~ and with this drift!

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 05:23 PM

Thanks M - Better story than mine even if it does drop more names. Now, as I was saying to Des Friel the other day. Don't you wish your Anna has followed in your footsteps and stuck to folk music... :-)

Seriously though - Two things. One being pertinent to the thread. If we stuck to what was 'original' we may never have got an F/B flat let alone a D/G. Or ever seen Anna Friel ;-)

Second is a question - I assumed the 'D major' was a D/G but on reflection I guess it may not be. What is the difference between a D major 'tina and a D/G then? Come to think of it - Why D major as opposed to just a simple ol' D? I am sure it must have been asked before but it is fresh in my mind here.   

I am sure you can explain, M. Provided you don't go off on a vocabulary trip :-D

Saw your you tube clips. You can find my only concertina ones here and here

Not to Mr B's standards - or even yours - but not bad for someone who practices every Preston guild :-)

Cheers

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 06:13 PM

The subjectivity I was referring to was how far do you want to drill down into the history of one period to represent it for an audience of a different era? Music on authentic historic instruments is one thing (though we all know, in our logical hearts, that given a chance to play some of our modern instruments historic musicians would have been thrilled at the opportunity).

Costumes are another thing. We see photos and paintings of a period but those are snapshots at best - and since they are formal they may have more of the formal represented than would normally be encountered in the everyday. I can't believe people wore the wigs as much, for example, as you suggested above - I remember reading about wigs and dress years ago, and they were an expensive part of a wardrobe, something that certain classes were more likely to wear than others. I suspect those in the margins might aspire to wigs, but not all would choose to wear them. That doesn't necessarily show up in etchings, paintings, photographs. Photos that took a long exposure, at any rate, were carefully planned and posed.

And think about filming on location: through the age of the buildings the director can show the feel of the place, even if it is a story set in the UK and filmed in Hungary.

I dislike the fast and loose way the Robert Downey Jr Sherlock film(s) shifted the characters and nature of the stories they used. I do like the totally modernized version that PBS has come up with. Those don't pretend to represent a period, they bring the character's (and Doyle's) thought process and manic approach to the modern day (rather like letting those ancient musicians play on modern instruments.)

SRS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 11:48 PM

There were not any photos in C18. Wigs, otoh, were universal among all aspirants to 'gentry' status. These are historical facts, in no way 'subjective'. TI contains several EXPLICIT refs to Dr Livesey's wig & his eccentric habit of taking it off in moments of stress. The Squire even posher than Dr & would certainly have worn one. Captain likewise.

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 12:03 AM

Dave ~ My concertina tunings ref to middle row ~ as did your 'TRADITIONAL C' one, no? So my D = D/A. [tho think I carelessly got the B♭ one wrong-way-round!].

Hope not too many floccinaucinihilipilifications for your exigent preferences in this communication?

Cheers

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 12:16 AM

Of course there weren't photos then - I was covering a broad swath of time, but I'm sure you figured that out. Or did you mention it because you thought I didn't know that?

There were, however, portraits.

Wigs, otoh, were universal among all aspirants to 'gentry' status. These are historical facts, in no way 'subjective'.

"Universal?" I'm sure there are many ways to show that there are exceptions to that universality. Any time something is said to be set in stone, there are exceptions.

SRS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 12:25 AM

Maybe, SRS; tho I think not. But Stevenson definitely mentions wigs in TI, as I have pointed out; and that surely is the point at issue here. I say again that any costume drama ostensibly set in mid-C18 showing gentlemen without wigs has got it WRONG, whatever exceptions you may urge ~ and that is a fact, not a 'subjective' statement ~ & particularly in an instance, as here, where the original author has actually more than once stressed the presence of wigs in his narrative.

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 12:37 AM

---"Universal?" I'm sure there are many ways to show that there are exceptions to that universality.----

I mean, OK, then, SRS ~~ show me just one of these MANY ways you are so 'sure' of... I can't, notoriously, prove a negative; so you just prove a single positive of what you have just asserted with such 'sure'ness.

Otherwise just admit you might just have got this point wrong, eh?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 01:00 PM

This well to do chap does not seem to be wearing a wig - But I could be wrong and I am sure SRS can find her own examples!

Anyway - Had the program in question been a documentary I would have agreed with M wholeheartedly. It wwould have been wrong on many levels. But it was never portrayed as a factual piece of costume drama. It was a post-hangover bit of frivolity that I, and many others, enjoyed. I also agree that historical facts are not subjective - But peoples views on how far to take realism are. In my opinion there was no need for accuracy at all at this level of entertainment.

Just my opinion of course but I believe that to be as valid as anyone elses.

Cheers

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 01:37 PM

Indeed, Dave; tho I think the wigs would have made it all seem more authentic. & at what point does a production set in C18, mentioning a specific battle of 1745, Fontenoy, cease to wish to appear a 'factual piece of costume drama'?; they dressed them in an approximation of the clothes of the time, did they not? ~~ like the man in your portrait - who appears to be an American visitor; and I think he has a wig on, tho it is not powdered as an English gentleman's might well have been. I am not sure what the expectations of a visiting American might have been at the time.

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 05:43 PM

I watched ITVs new drama tonight. Well, to be honest I nodded off part way through buy I did try:-) Anyway, it is set in modern day York. The snippets of everyday life you see are absolutely spot on. The clothing. The Market. The shops. Even the wigs (yes - it is a courtroom drama) Yet the central protagonists are Angels. Wings, the lot. When did that program cease to be a factual piece of drama? I think it was probably when it was written. Just like Treasure Island it was made up. It is fiction. Neither of them ever ceased to be a factual piece because they never started life in that genre. Any facts that are given within them simply support the story but are not usualy pivotal. As the disclaimers say, any similarity to persons living or dead is unintentional. Or however they say it.

And I disagree about the American gent's wig. I think it is real hair and, if you notice, there is a desription of what he wears and holds. No mention of a hairpiece. Red Herring about his being American - You state that wigs 'were universal among all aspirants to 'gentry' status' and ask for a single piece of evidence to refute that. I believe have provided it.

Going back a couple of posts BTW I asked why D Major rather than just D. I am still unsure when the term major should be used as I don't appreciate the difference or whan to tag the term 'major' onto the key while it major is usualy assumed. Can you help with that one?

Cheers

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 12:11 AM

No, sorry ~ can't. I think "D/A concertina" would probably be best description. I said "D-major," I think, because IIRc that was how Peter Bellamy described it when he told me to die quickly so he could get his hands on it and the conversation had stuck in my memory: that's all. But best way to specify pitch of an Anglo is surely to give key of its middle row, followed by that of bottom row which will always be the middle row's dominant?

The fact that a novel is fiction does not mean that the author has not striven for reality; and I repeat that RLS was emphatic about Dr Livesey's wig-wearing. My remarks about the ubiquity of these among the gentry obviously applied, I should have thought, to the british gentry. It is perfectly possible that in US the mores were to an extent different ~ I don't know, & I bet you don't either; tho I accept your attempt to provide an exception to my rule is a good one, but, for reasons given above, not I think incontrovertible. Interesting IMO that SRS has not come back when she was so "sure" that lots of "exceptions" would be easy to find. So where are they, SRS, eh?

Anyhow, without wishing to be a bore, I reiterate my point, WHICH NOBODY YET HAS SUCCEEDED IN REFUTING, that the omission of the wigs which were an invariable part of English gentry costume of the period, and which were several times mentioned as such by Stevenson in his narrative, was a serious error in the production, detracting greatly from its conviction as a narrative supposedly occurring in a specific period.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 12:43 AM

http://compuball.com/Inquisition/declaration_of_independence.htm

Above is an article about signing of US Declaration Of Independence, illustrated by 2 pix which seem to me to show that some US gentlemen did wear wigs, but not all. I should like to see a comparable British group portrait of the period in which some wore them, others not, as in these examples. My feeling is that an English gentleman of the period would no more have appeared in public without his wig than without his breeches.

Look at the two group illustrations, e.g., from this wiki entry on Zoffany

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Zoffany

Or this Christie catalogue family group, anonymous C18, in which the little boy, as well as his father, wears a wig

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=5465708

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 10:53 AM

This conversation is getting wig-centric,

Its not as though Israel Hands chased Jim up the mast for pinching his wig.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 12:47 PM

:-) Nice one Al.

No worries about the key/major question, M. There is just something at the back of my mind that I can't quite remember. I'll start another thread.

The only thing I can add to the wig point is that when you say 'detracting greatly from its conviction as a narrative' I must add that that is not my view nor that of many other people. The lack of wigs did nothing to spoil my enjoyment in the slightest. Whether wigs were worn or willies were wagged did not worry the wider audience. IMHO of course.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 01:03 PM

Ah, well, Dave, that is fine for you and I am pleased you enjoyed it. I suppose I can't help, as that acquaintance wrote on another forum, that my "pedantry is legendary". Just the way I'm made; can't help noticing these things.

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 10:26 AM

to be honest mike I agree totally with you. they shouldn't have buggered about with the characters. desecration - thats what it is.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Treasure Island
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 10:30 AM

Of course they should be buggered. It's authentic!

:D tG

(Page 2 BTW)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 14 December 1:34 AM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.