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Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?

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GUEST 20 Apr 17 - 11:08 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 17 - 10:14 AM
Big Al Whittle 20 Apr 17 - 09:56 AM
GUEST 20 Apr 17 - 09:09 AM
The Sandman 20 Apr 17 - 08:04 AM
GUEST,Mathew 20 Apr 17 - 06:29 AM
GUEST,Mathew 20 Apr 17 - 05:42 AM
Big Al Whittle 20 Apr 17 - 04:05 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 17 - 03:39 AM
GUEST,Some bloke 20 Apr 17 - 02:57 AM
GUEST,Mathew 19 Apr 17 - 10:47 PM
Big Al Whittle 19 Apr 17 - 02:26 PM
The Sandman 19 Apr 17 - 12:54 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Apr 17 - 11:23 AM
Big Al Whittle 19 Apr 17 - 10:25 AM
GUEST 19 Apr 17 - 09:47 AM
Jack Campin 19 Apr 17 - 09:30 AM
GUEST 19 Apr 17 - 09:20 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Apr 17 - 08:02 AM
akenaton 18 Apr 17 - 06:14 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Apr 17 - 11:12 AM
GUEST 18 Apr 17 - 10:41 AM
Big Al Whittle 18 Apr 17 - 10:20 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Apr 17 - 04:46 AM
Big Al Whittle 18 Apr 17 - 04:45 AM
GUEST,guest 18 Apr 17 - 04:01 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Apr 17 - 03:58 AM
Big Al Whittle 18 Apr 17 - 12:18 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Apr 17 - 09:20 PM
Jackaroodave 17 Apr 17 - 06:22 PM
Big Al Whittle 17 Apr 17 - 06:18 PM
The Sandman 17 Apr 17 - 05:15 PM
The Sandman 17 Apr 17 - 05:05 PM
The Sandman 17 Apr 17 - 05:02 PM
Jack Campin 17 Apr 17 - 03:19 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Apr 17 - 01:57 PM
Big Al Whittle 17 Apr 17 - 12:57 PM
GUEST 17 Apr 17 - 12:33 PM
Jackaroodave 17 Apr 17 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,guest 17 Apr 17 - 12:09 PM
GUEST,Jackaroodave 17 Apr 17 - 11:53 AM
The Sandman 17 Apr 17 - 11:30 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Apr 17 - 11:13 AM
Jeri 17 Apr 17 - 11:12 AM
GUEST 17 Apr 17 - 10:37 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Apr 17 - 10:32 AM
GUEST 17 Apr 17 - 10:02 AM
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GUEST,Desi C 17 Apr 17 - 09:03 AM
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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 11:08 AM

I have no argument about McColl. My question was about the veracity of your ever changing Dylan story.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 10:14 AM

"This seems to cast aspersions on Dylans character without there being a shred of evidence."
I've had to get used to that sort of thing in the arguments I have had about MacColl down the years, comes with the territory, I'm afraid
It seems those who are still hppy to dance on MacColl's grave are not as happy when it happens to their particular flavours of the month.
I first came across the story in the Irish Times and it was confirmed in a brief conversation I had with Pete Seeger the only we met him while we were recording choruses for Ewan's 'White Wind' South African piece
Not prepared to go any further than that - sorry
And people wonder why I bother with stories about MacColl
Ah well!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 09:56 AM

I definitely remember Ewan 's name being in the Singing Together book for some reason or other.

he was always present. When I first used to buy Oak publications books of folksongs - some of his songs were always in there.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 09:09 AM

Neither can I find any evidence that Pete Seeger or anyone else approached Dylan about going to Mississippi or that he ever refused to go. This seems to cast aspersions on Dylans character without there being a shred of evidence. So an I an curious about this story which is often repeated here.What is the actual source?


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 08:04 AM

I was playing folk songs in 1958, age 7, mainly american folk songs, we were taught english folk songs at primary school, o no john nightingale early one morning boney was a warrior, i dont think schools radio was anmything to do with Ewan. I seem to remember tubby the tuba was one, that doesnt sound like ewans style.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Mathew
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 06:29 AM

I just find it so interesting to hear candid sounds of one of my idols from someone who knew him personally.

I may be having a bit of a fan boy moment, but I cannot wait to listen to these recordings.



I could help you organize them, if you'd like, depending on how you want it to be organized


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Mathew
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 05:42 AM

Thank you very much Jim,

mathewrferrari@gmail.com   (


(My public email so I don't mind giving it out here)


I really appreciate this, is there anything I need to do with dropbox aside from enabling it with my email?

I used to be a member but it has been so long that I forget the information.

Maybe I should rectify that soon.

Again, thanks a million mate, I think this is so cool.


Mathew Ferrari


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 04:05 AM

Born in 1949 - I wasn't going to folk clubs in the 1950's.

the first folk music, as folk, was aware of was probly stuff on the mainstream radio - the kingston trio singing Tom Dooley.

the first folksong that registered as relevant to me was Seeger's Where have all the flowers gone? A short bike ride from our town Boston, in LIncolnshire took you past THor missiles loaded with an H bomb presumably pointed at Moscow.

having said that - the schools radio (which Ewan must have had some input with) taught us many UK folksongs from when we were very small.

i wonder if they had accompanied the singing together material with guitar instead of piano - would we have made the connection, and prevented the internecine traddy/contemporary warfare that has dogged so much of the folk music revival.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 03:39 AM

Mathew
Yes - I have masses of recordings of Ewan's classes - too many to get organised, truth be told.
If you let me have an e-mail address I am happy to pass some on via Dropbox.
As you're a non-member, best ask Joe Offer - he has been kind enough to help before.
Pat and I did two, hour-long obituary programmes on Ewan a couple of years ago which featured Ewan in teaching mode - it gives some idea of how he did things - happy to send copies of those to whoever wants them
There were several offshoots of The Critics Group down the years; I ran one in Manchester in the sixties before I moved to London, there was a long running one in Birmingham which eventually evolved into Banner Theatre, several dotted around England and Scotland....
When the Critics broke up, London Singers Workshop evolved and ran for fifteen years
These workshops are easy to set up and extremely effective - it only takes half-a dozen (or less) like-minded people who are prepared to work on each others singing in an analytical and friendly way
Let me know
Best
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 02:57 AM

Nice one Al. When people use your music it certainly does become theirs. Over the years I've introduced songs from The Radio Ballads to new audiences by turning them towards different genres to that they were written in. Rock, mainly. Whether the old curmudgeon would have approved is another matter...

I suppose in the '60s with Wilson in government and universal suffrage, UK "folk" songwriters didn't see "freedom" in the same aspirational sense as those involved in the US civil rights movement. Dylan's prose was more abstract to UK listeners whilst those listening to MacColl could identify with more of his songs.

But to compare? I doubt I'd compare baroque with opera or compare Ballads with instrumental songs but judging by the thread title, some people obviously do. The thread degenerates into comparing based on your own tastes which can be silly. It also becomes a platform for Jim Carroll to dismiss anything to do with MacColl that he didn't know about. A regular feature on Mudcat.

(A bit of an aside; I was once asked to arrange a local operatics group performing light opera. As well as a medley of Gilbert and Sullivan, Benjamin Britten etc, I included MacColl & Seeger's "Cabin Boy" (from Singing The Fishing.). Musically within the same genre.)


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Mathew
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 10:47 PM

Jim Carroll,

As someone who admires Maccoll and read his autobiography, I have always wanted to attend one of his singing workshops/sessions.

Are these perhaps what you have personal recordings of? If possible, would you be able to share? The vocal techniques/exorcises sound incredibly interesting and valuable.


I would be more than grateful if you would share.

Cheers mate.

Mathew


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 02:26 PM

well i don't think the prs were counting down in Alabama when the civil rights were using Dylan, Seeger and Carawan's anthems to sustain them.

it wasn't all about money. similarly when the kids in Soweto were chanting Pink Floyd's WE don't Need NO EDucation.

I admire MacColl and the work you have done for trad. song. But when the people use your music - it becomes rheir music. if you're lucky - some money comes your way - but its not why all of us are writing songs.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 12:54 PM

THe answer turned out to be 'Blowin' in the Wind' - mention "freedom", and you had a hit on your hands.
yes, another example is Donovans "colours""freedom is a word i dont often use" but when i did i got a hit.
Donovan is in my opinion a more likeable character, but its the same old ding dong


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 11:23 AM

" I am sure. I can find no reference to it anywhere."
There was an interesting article in the Irish Times on it some years ago - I thought I'd saved it.
"So it seems that Dylan never actually refused to go,"
His manager did it on his behalf, but he had been approached personally by Pete Seeger and others to join them and he made the same excuse.
"totally ridiculous to grub through the minutiae of one's life "
I'm not doing that Al
I neither like nor dislike Dylan - though I tried very hard to like his music when some of my mates extolled his virtues
I gave up after a couple of goes.
I was actually responding to Ake's claim about the old socialists and why I believe it to be inaccurate
The sixties was a time when the music industry believed there to be some profit to be gained out of protest - as long as it didn't frighten the horses.
THe answer turned out to be 'Blowin' in the Wind' - mention "freedom", and you had a hit on your hands
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 10:25 AM

totally ridiculous to grub through the minutiae of one's life to rationalise your reasons for disliking someone.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 09:47 AM

Thank you.. I have now read two versions of this story, neither of which jibes with Jims telling of it. What I have read says that Bikel approached Albert Grossman and suggested that Dylan go to Mississippi. Grossman replied that Dylan could not afford it so Bikel wrote a cheque to cover Dylans costs. So it seems that Dylan never actually refused to go, it was Bikel and Grossman who arranged it without telling Dylan the source of the money. Am I correct in this ?


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 09:30 AM

Google "dylan bikel ticket" and you'll find it. Including a listing on a collectibles site for Bikel's own copy of Dylan's first album... unplayed, whatever statement that makes.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 09:20 AM

The Bob Dylan / Theo Bikel has been told by you dozens of times, I am sure. I can find no reference to it anywhere. What is the source for this information?


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 08:02 AM

Dylan was never the darling of the old socialists - his milk and water politics never caught on with them.
When Dylan was asked to take part in the Civil Rights protests in the South, he refused, giving the excuse that he couldn't afford the fare
He was eventually shamed into showing his hace by actor/singer, Theodor Bilkel, who presented him with a ticket.
Dylan became very much accepted by the 'revolution without commitment", 'flowers in your hair' mob.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 06:14 PM

It's quite simple really the old socialist folkies thought Dylan was the Messiah and he turned out to be just a very naughty boy.

They felt let down that their ideology had not been personified in a hugely popular celebrity.....He took their toys away. :0(


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 11:12 AM

"Arguable, MacColl was a bigger influence on Luke Kelly, Luke Kelly and the Dubliners"
Far from it
Ewan warned Luke about stripping out his voice back in the early sixties and nobody could possibly suggest that Luke took anything from Ewan's singing.
Interestingly, they remained friends to the end, falling out only when Ewan objected to Luke's attempts to copyright traditional songs he had learned in the English revival (from MacColl, among others)
I was present at The Singers Club when the Dubliners turned up at the end of the evening
Ewan and Luke greeted each other like long-lost lovers
"you're a bit of a stamper yourself ,Jim.."
Not really Al - I picked up Ewan's love for traditional song as 'The Voice of the People', which give it a significance far beyond putting bums on seats to entertain
I write about it, and lecture on it so I feel it necessary to stress that significance.
Charles Parker coined the phrase 'The tyranny of the nice guy" and went to great lengths to describe the damage it has done to the music that is our voice - another thing that stuck with me.
Charlie was full of such sayings; I particularly like, "a well-sung love song is a fist in the face of the establishment"
Brrrrrr - still gives me a tingle
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 10:41 AM

"Bob Dylan was simply a much greater influence."
Arguable, MacColl was a bigger influence on Luke Kelly, Luke Kelly and the Dubliners , Influenced and stil influence irish music today


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 10:20 AM

you're a bit of a stamper yourself ,Jim...


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 04:46 AM

"well, every single folk club organiser I ever met."
Running clubs is not helping individual membrs develop
In fact, very few ran workshops to help develop new singers - the Critics Group was the first
It is often forgotten by the MacCollophobes, that Ewan and Peggy put their home, their library and recordings, their skills and their knowledge at the disposal of less skilled and experienced singers who were prepared to accept help and put in the work, on a weekly basis for nearly ten years - all while MacColl's loudest knockers were getting on with their own careers.
Who "got the ball rolling" is indisputable and whether it would have happened is one of t=he great unknowns.
The BBC did much to introduce Britain to its heritage, but lost interest after a few programmes.
It took a handful of dedicated people to take the initiative - MacColl and Lloyd headed that 'little band of brothers" and both were still at at until their deaths - no selling out to fame and fortune, no losing sight of the music and its importance, no trying to please all of the people all of the time - just sheer dedication
Would there were a few more around to replace them
Nowadays, it has become a dangerous thing to even raise the question 'what is folk-song' without getting stamped into the ground by folk police accusing you of being "folk police"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 04:45 AM

that's a non sequitur...

just because you can't verify something , it doesn't mean a proposition is meaningless.

in fact - we used to learn by rote Avogadro's Hypothesis. the whole idea of a hypothesis is that you are advancing an argument that you can't totally verify.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 04:01 AM

"I cannot think of many who gave up their time for nothing, to try and help others,"

............. well, every single folk club organiser I ever met.

yes, but none of them would be doing it,if it had not been for MacColl and Lloyd and their buddies, gtting the ball rolling.

A statement [ the reply ] which is impossible to verify and therefore totally meaningless.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 03:58 AM

"Has that changed at all Jim?"
Manchester University Press published 6 of his plays in 1986, edited by Ewan and Howard Goorney, under the title, 'Agit Prop to Theatre Workshop' - it cost me £2.95 (hardback) at the time but that was remarkably cheap
I'm appalled to find that the copies available on Amazon cost up to £244
A new copy of the Dover paperback edition will cost £264
Makes me wonder how much our books are worth today - it would have sickened Ewan
Apart from that, we have an early bound copy of Uranium 235 (with Isla Cameron's name on the flyleaf) - we used to have two, but gave the other on to ex-Critic, Jim O'Connor, who was producing plays for an am-dram company in London
There's an enjoyable book entitled Theatre Workshop, by Howard Goorney, don't know if that's still available
Ewan's Last Play, 'The Shipmaster' written in 1980 was produced at The Library Theatre in Manchester - we didn't get to see it, but our late friend, Terry Whelan, did - he enjoyed it.
It is often claimed that The Critics Group broke up acrimoniously - one of the pieces of misinformation to add to the pile
In fact, the Group broke up voluntarily in a friendly manner so Ewan could move on to develop a Theatre Company with Critics who were interested in doing so
That Group chose and began to rehearse plays under Ewan's guidance - we saw four short ones put on at The Union Tavern (Singer's Club venue) - very impressive - though I can only recall the Lorca one.
The Theatre Group lasted a year and broke up abruptly and very unpleasantly - pity.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 12:18 AM

I know at the time of my maximum interest in MacColl, it seemed very difficult to get hold of his published literary and dramatic work.
Scary how time passes - I realise now that was about forty years ago.
Has that changed at all Jim?

I remember writing to his publisher somewhere in Scotland. People wrote letters in those days! I got no reply.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 09:20 PM

"Jack, thank you for informing me about MacColl's Brechtian work."
Anybody who joined the Critics Group was presented with a number of voice exercises to assist with a number of singing exercises to assist with pitch, small and larrge intervals.... etc
My particular favourite was Brecht's 'Lament for the Death of a Comrade'
I still us it and it still brings a lump to the throat
The Singers Cub introduced themed 'Feature Evenings' into their Prgramme
One of the favourites, was the 'Crime and Criminals' theme, and one of the high points was a section which started with 'The Cruel Mother' ballad, then MacColl's adaptation of Brecht's 'Marie Farrar', finishing with the Children's version of the opening ballad, ' Weela, Weela Wila'
It invariably brought the house down.
MacColl's efforts at poetry are not widely known, but he wrote a magnificent epic piece on the Vietnam War, very much in the Brechtian style, for one of the Festival of Fools shows in the mid-sixties.
MacColl admired Brecht greatly and often quoted him, but occasionally commented (with a mixture of pride and wry resentment) that The Berliner Ensemble in East Berlin owed him a small fortune for the performance of his plays, which were a feature of their repertoire until their demise (long after MacColl's death)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 06:22 PM

Jack, thank you for informing me about MacColl's Brechtian work. In this thread, the contrast between the two was painted so vividly that their possible partaking of different flavors of modernism would never have occurred to me. I didn't mean to suggest that Joyce was an influence on Dylan, just that they both ruthlessly used and reshaped traditional forms for their own ends.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 06:18 PM

its two different views of writing . American and English.

Strangely it was an ex-pat living in America who first pointed out the differences to me - Raymond Chandler. not a songweiter 0 but the same truths obtain.

Chandler realised to het published in detective novels like RGe Black Mask. He had to pare down his writing style. As Chandler put it - you have to stop drawing attention to the language , and tell the story.

In this case Dylan tells his story using language that a ten year old could understand, and it moves along to a jaunting waltz time. What Hemingway calls simple declarative sentences

Rosselsons piece could almost be a soliloquy from one of Shakespeare's more verbose heroes - Richard II for example bewailing his fate. MacColl was a great admirer of Shakespeare - think of the wide and wasteful ocean nicked from Henry V.

Neither approach is 'wrong'. It's allowed.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 05:15 PM

contrast to Hattie Carroll, this song by leon Rosselson, a good subject but this time well written
If the sons of company directors,
And the judges' private daughters,
Had to got to school in a slum school,
Dumped by some joker in a damp back alley,
Had to herd into classrooms cramped with worry,
With a view onto slag heaps and stagnant pools,
Had to file through corridors grey with age,
And play in a crack-pot concrete cage.

Buttons would be pressed,
Rules would be broken.
Strings would be pulled
And magic words spoken.
Invisible fingers would mould
Palaces of gold.

If prime ministers and advertising executives,
Royal personages and bank managers' wives
Had to live out their lives in dark rooms,
Blinded by smoke and the foul air of sewers.
Rot on the walls and rats in the cellars,
In rows of dumb houses like mouldering tombs.
Had to bring up their children and watch them grow
In a wasteland of dead streets where nothing will grow.

Buttons would be pressed,
Rules would be broken.
Strings would be pulled
And magic words spoken.
Invisible fingers would mould
Palaces of gold.

I'm not suggesting any sort of plot,
Everyone knows, there's not,
But you unborn millions might like to be warned
That if you don't want to be buried alive by slagheaps,
Pitfalls and damp walls and rat traps and dead streets,
Arrange to be democratically born
The son of a company director
Or a judge's private daughter.

Buttons will be pressed,
Rules will be broken.
Strings will be pulled
And magic words spoken.
Invisible fingers will mould
Palaces of gold.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 05:05 PM

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,guest - PM
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 12:09 PM

"I cannot think of many who gave up their time for nothing, to try and help others,"

............. well, every single folk club organiser I ever met.
yes, but none of them would be doing it,if it had not been for MacColl and Lloyd and their buddies, gtting the ball rolling.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 05:02 PM

Hattie Carroll was a good subject, but an example of poor songwriting imo.
      look at the way it is written:to me it is reminscent of mcGonagle
William Zanzinger killed poor Hattie Carroll
With a cane that he twirled around his diamond ring finger
At a Baltimore hotel society gathering
And the cops were called in and his weapon took from him
As they rode him in custody down to the station
And booked William Zanzinger for first-degree murder
But you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears
Take the rag away from your face
Now ain't the time for your tears
William Zanzinger, who at twenty-four years
Owns a tobacco farm of six hundred acres
With rich wealthy parents who provide and protect him
And high office relations in the politics of Maryland
Reacted to his deed with a shrug of his shoulders
And swear words and sneering, and his tongue it was snarling
In a matter of minutes, on bail was out walking
But you who philosophize disgrace and criticize fears
Take the rag away from your face
Now ain't the time for your tears
Hattie Carroll was a maid in the kitchen
She was fifty-one years old and gave birth to ten children
Who carried the dishes and took out the garbage
And never sat once at the head of the table
And didn't even talk to the people at the table
Who just cleaned up all the food from the table
And emptied the ashtrays on a whole other level
Got killed by a blow, lay slain by a cane
That sailed through the air and came down through the room
Doomed and determined to destroy all the gentle
And she never done nothing to William Zanzinger
And you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears
Take the rag away from your face
Now ain't the time for your tears
In the courtroom of honor, the judge pounded his gavel
To show that all's equal and that the courts are on the level
And that the strings in the books ain't pulled and persuaded
And that even the nobles get properly handled
Once that the cops have chased after and caught 'em
And that the ladder of law has no top and no bottom
Stared at the person who killed for no reason
Who just happened to be feelin' that way without warnin'
And he spoke through his cloak, most deep and distinguished
And handed out strongly, for penalty and repentance
William Zanzinger with a six-month sentence
Oh, but you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears
Bury the rag deep in your face
For now's the time for your tears
Songwriters: B. Dylan


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 03:19 PM

MacColl, I gather, was a traditionalist who sought to preserve, rescue, and restore historic forms; Dylan was a modernist (like Joyce) who sought to highlight them, exploit them, stretch them, and create his own very different work in part out of them.

The Radio Ballads and MacColl's theatre work don't have any precedent in folk tradition, so you're talking about two different kinds of modernism, rather than modernism and not. MacColl's came mostly out of Brecht, who Dylan never seemed to relate to, maybe with the exception of "Hattie Carroll".

There was quite a bunch of modernist song and poetry that Dylan did pick up on; I wouldn't have thought Joyce was significant. The mid-century mostly-British surrealist school was more accessibly usable.

Either of them could have recycled Prévert, but I don't think either bothered looking outside material easily accessible in English.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 01:57 PM

"Jim;You saying nothing different, "
Which is a step up from your saying nothing
" I am simply suggesting that there is no need to saw sawdust"
We've never actually discussed MacColl's work and ideas in any depth
I knew for twenty years and worked with him in depth for a great deal of that time.
I continue to work on recordings of his talks and classes, as well as masses of unreleased material privately recorded, in veiw to passing it on to somene who will make use of it without having to scramble up the garbage mountain erected by such spiteful attitudes as yours.
If you are interested, you are welcome to be part of that, if not, get out of the way and make room for sombody who is.
We have seen the tip of a largee iceberg of what he had to offer
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 12:57 PM

Dylan certainly influenced more people.

However Mac Coll was tremendous. He would always talk and discuss with you - try writing to Dylan.

He was so generous with his talent - trailing round England to tiny folk clubs even as an elderly man with a heart condition. He gave England something that Americans can only dream about - folk clubs ad hoc, all over the place, forming and re-forming.

Places where massive mature talents rub shoulders with greenhorns, totally unpatronising.

Americans on mudcat always say we wish we had a folk club. And you say - just form one, like we do. And there's a glum silence. LIke they think the local nutter will turn up with an AK47.

MacColl was amongst the first one to form a folk club. And when he'd shown us how it was done - he donated his enormous talent.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 12:33 PM

Jim;You saying nothing different, you have said the same bloody thing over and over. I am not an ajudicator of any sort, I am simply suggesting that there is no need to saw sawdust. As for being an anonymous non member. I am allowed to be so under the rules of this forum. I have good reason for that. As for Ewan McColl, yes, he wrote a few good songs, yes he had influence. But we have discussed him to death.
Bob Dylan was simply a much greater influence..I don't think any amount of bafflegab will alter that.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 12:24 PM

Sorry, forgot to log in.

Bill


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 12:09 PM

"I cannot think of many who gave up their time for nothing, to try and help others,"

............. well, every single folk club organiser I ever met.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Jackaroodave
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 11:53 AM

Dylan and MacColl seem to be drawing on two overlapping but otherwise quite different traditions. Dylan's included commercial recordings of old-timey, jug band and hokum, urban and rural blues. (Dave van Ronk did an album called "In the Tradition" which mainly comprised early jazz songs.) Dylan's tradition probably had more in common with R. Crumb's and the Grateful Dead's than with MacColl's, so it's moot to compare them as interpreters of their respective traditions as if they were trying to do the same thing.

Exposure to this world was very liberating for lyricists. It was full of colorful metaphor, allusion, very specific references to God knows what, all tremendously evocative and equally cryptic. Performer after performer has testified to the influence of Harry Smith's Anthology of American Folk Music, which is just full of this kind of stuff.

For better or worse, it gave the songwriters permission to trust the associations in their unconscious, and when they came through, it was overpowering: "All Along the Watchtower," "Hard Rain," "Every Grain of Sand," or "Chimes of Freedom," for example, seem to me precise recreations of this simultaneously hyper-specific and ominously cryptic lyricism. And of course these performers came of age when sinister weirdness was thick in the air--along with other substances.

(It's also relevant that many strands in this tradition had very different approaches to originality, authenticity, "borrowing," and getting paid for selling recordings--or sheet music.)

Many traditional ballads in the forms they reached Dylan's contemporaries had the same mysterious but vividly evocative images and stories, partly, I suppose, because their original audiences already understood the background, partly because of the omissions and accumulated mondegreens that shaped their eventual form.

Even aside from the difference in their traditions, it seems to me almost inevitable that MacColl--and Dylan's early traditionalist followers--would abominate the actual hallmarks of Dylan's creativity. MacColl, I gather, was a traditionalist who sought to preserve, rescue, and restore historic forms; Dylan was a modernist (like Joyce) who sought to highlight them, exploit them, stretch them, and create his own very different work in part out of them.

All this, of course, is old hat, but I think it is relevant to some of the disagreements in this thread. They don't strike me as just matters of opinion, but rather expressions of two different and valuable approaches to "the tradition" that stem from the differences in our formative experiences of it.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 11:30 AM

well said,Jim.
I cannot think of many who gave up their time for nothing, to try and help others, MacColl and Seeger may have made mistakes,who doesnt make mistakes,but they were committed.
IMO people like them[With their faults] are needed more than ever in 2017.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 11:13 AM

Well say something different or say nothing - who do you think you are to dictate whet can be discussed?
Who started no make anonymous non-members adjudicators?
As far as I am concerned, MacColl was the major moving force in the folk revival and it's about time we discussed that fact without the garbage shoveled out by a bunch of necrophobes - the man'r been dead for over half a century
Is that different enough for you?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 11:12 AM

People are generally not that bright and will reply to anything to which they have a script in their heads. And, no judgement about intelligence, Jim does like saying the same things over and over, with varying combinations of werdz.

Also, it's the internet, and this thread is searchable, so you get new folks who've never been in here before. You can probably search Google for threads where you can express your hatred for Dylan, and POW - this one comes up.

The problem you can do something about here is NOT getting other people to be less obnoxious, but to learn to ignore the stuff you don't like. You clicked on this thread for some reason, and then you came back to it.

Big ol' rhetorical "why"!?


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 10:37 AM

I am not interfering with free discussion, I am objecting to pages and pages of people saying the same things over and over again..As for having nothing to say, you would be a blessing if you would take your own advice.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 10:32 AM

"Who in Gods name reopened this repetitive rubbish."
Who in God's mae is interfering with free discussion, anonymous Guest
If you have nothing to say, say nothing
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 10:02 AM

Same nonsense, different day. Same people saying the same things. Who in Gods name reopened this repetitive rubbish.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 09:37 AM

The UK Folk scene needs MacColl right now. I know I have been critical of him in the past, but it needs someone who is prepared to give their time to help others. The only song writers[ imo] who compare, who have a comparable dossier of well writeen songs are Rosselson , and to alesser extent Lowe
MacColl probably saw through Dylan, and possibly saw that commercialism was his Future drectioin , personally I think RayDavies was a better writer than Dylan, in the commercial genre


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 09:06 AM

Jim i would refer you to his first album. His renditions of the traditional songs of his own country are exceptional.
In the thing about amplified buskers, I said five minutes ago. That Dylan along with Pete Seeger used traditional forms to articulate our feelings of helplessness in the Cold War period. To say that an artist has not understood a song form - when they can rewrite Nottanum Town as masters of War - recorded by dozens of artists like Nina Simone. This clever stuff and we could do with a few more people misunderstanding traditional forms.

Just for that I would rate him as an important artist. i am not an aficianado of Dylan, and I appreciate the correctness of what you say Jim - it was a relatively short time in his career. but then so was Picasso's blue period.

For   my money he lost his way when he jacked in folk music. He was original and very influential, and the folk music bit was his most creative period.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 09:03 AM

From the one time I met McColl and having known several who knew him. People were very reverent towards him, and I feel many scared of him. He really seemed to hate all 'American Folk' Though of course he married American Folkie Peggy Seeger. But he also upset many top artists i.e once told Ireland's greatest Singer Luke Kelly that he couldn't sing. McColl actually had a very below average voice! But most I've met saw him as a very big headed disagreeable but talented man


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