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Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?

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GUEST,Allan Conn 22 Jan 12 - 12:07 PM
Baz Bowdidge 22 Jan 12 - 11:48 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 22 Jan 12 - 11:15 AM
Baz Bowdidge 22 Jan 12 - 10:54 AM
Owen Woodson 22 Jan 12 - 10:48 AM
Little Hawk 22 Jan 12 - 10:38 AM
Vic Smith 22 Jan 12 - 10:17 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 22 Jan 12 - 09:04 AM
Vic Smith 22 Jan 12 - 08:39 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jan 12 - 07:58 AM
Baz Bowdidge 22 Jan 12 - 07:57 AM
Vic Smith 22 Jan 12 - 07:29 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jan 12 - 06:37 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jan 12 - 06:22 AM
MGM·Lion 22 Jan 12 - 05:52 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 22 Jan 12 - 04:53 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 22 Jan 12 - 04:42 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jan 12 - 04:14 AM
catspaw49 21 Jan 12 - 11:22 PM
Little Hawk 21 Jan 12 - 09:01 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 21 Jan 12 - 07:01 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Jan 12 - 02:48 PM
Vic Smith 21 Jan 12 - 02:36 PM
Jim McLean 21 Jan 12 - 02:13 PM
Vic Smith 21 Jan 12 - 12:55 PM
ollaimh 21 Jan 12 - 11:52 AM
ollaimh 21 Jan 12 - 11:48 AM
ollaimh 21 Jan 12 - 11:43 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jan 12 - 04:47 AM
Big Al Whittle 21 Jan 12 - 04:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jan 12 - 05:31 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jan 12 - 03:04 PM
TheSnail 19 Jan 12 - 06:46 AM
GUEST,raymond greenoaken 19 Jan 12 - 06:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jan 12 - 05:59 AM
TheSnail 19 Jan 12 - 05:57 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jan 12 - 04:16 AM
TheSnail 18 Jan 12 - 05:10 PM
Little Hawk 18 Jan 12 - 05:03 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jan 12 - 04:48 PM
TheSnail 18 Jan 12 - 04:20 PM
The Sandman 18 Jan 12 - 03:50 PM
Vic Smith 18 Jan 12 - 03:32 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jan 12 - 03:20 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 18 Jan 12 - 03:16 PM
GUEST,999 18 Jan 12 - 02:55 PM
The Sandman 18 Jan 12 - 02:50 PM
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Big Al Whittle 18 Jan 12 - 11:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 12:07 PM

"And yes, the Scots/Gaels/highlanders/Celts were/are as capable of oppressing their fellow human beings as anyone else."

And linguistically we have to remember that Scotland (prior to standard English being officially imposed by an anglocentric Scottish elite in the late 19thC) hadn't always been Scots and Gaelic speaking. In the mid first millenium Gaelic was only spoken by a small percentage of the people of Scotland in Argyle and the southern Hebrides and the Anglian forerunner of Scots was only spoken in the extreme south by Northumbrian Angles. The bulk of people in Scotland at that time would have been P-Celtic speakers. The imposition of Gaelic and Scots on these peoples caused the complete demise of the their own languages. Not to mention the later Norn of the Northern Isles and Hebrides etc. Both Gaelic and Scots had been expansionist languages themselves.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Baz Bowdidge
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 11:48 AM

Why would I want to succeed in redeeming myself when my point was quite clear?
'Tirade'? You must be thinking of someone else on this forum.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 11:15 AM

No, BB, you haven't succeeded in redeeming yourself. You've just engaged in a pointless and petty tirade which achieves nothing.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Baz Bowdidge
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 10:54 AM

>Many Jewish songwriters and entertainers changed their names to avoid prejudice whereas Jimmy Miller changed his name to create prejudice."

Unless you want me, and others, to dismiss this as a completely fatuous and stupid remark, BB, perhaps you should explain what you mean by it.<

Neither 'fatuous' nor 'stupid' as Jimmy Miller wanted 'you and others' to PREJUDGE him as a true Scot which if he used his real name would have suggested otherwise.
Incidentally he married twice as Miller.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 10:48 AM

Vic,

There was a considerable influx of Gaelic speaking Highland Scots to North Carolina in the eighteenth century and the whole thing is documented in The Highland Scots of North Carolina by Duane Meyer, a one time history professor at Missouri University. It's so long since I read the book that I'm not even going to try to discuss it. Certainly, I don't recall Meyer saying anything about slave owners teaching their slaves to speak Gaelic. However, if they spoke it themselves, I suppose it's only natural that they'd make sure their slaves spoke Gaelic also.

And yes, the Scots/Gaels/highlanders/Celts were/are as capable of oppressing their fellow human beings as anyone else. I doubt you need me of all people to remind you of the highland clearances.

Just a thought. If Dizzy Gillespie owed something to Gaelic speaking slaves, could it be that Bunk (Buanch) Johnson had a similar lineage? Maybe there's something in this idea about jazz being Celtic after all.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 10:38 AM

Catspaw49 - Your insight on this general subject is, of course, brilliant as always, illuminating to the discussion, spectacular in its subtlety, and vast in its degree of comprehension....but the really odd thing is that it draws no critical reactions from anyone on the thread, not even from the most paranoid, defensive, and combative of our UK residents. That suggests to me either that you have been elevated to the status of a living saint on this forum...or...that no one gives a shit.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 10:17 AM

Little Hawk wrote:-
"A change of name is very common in the performing arts"


Indeed, a change of name has been forced on many performers in the UK if they want to get their all important Equity card from the trade union that caters for "singers, actors, designers, stage managers, stunt performers and variety artists amongst a wide range of performers." You can read this at their website at http://www.equity.org.uk/about-us/join-us/how-can-i-join/your-professional-name/ where it also explains why they restrict members' use of names to "avoid duplication of names amongst our members".

I believe that is why Jo Fraser had to change her performing name to Jo Freya.

Still, at least it would eliminate all those, "Which Ian Anderson/Rod Stradling/Chris Bartram are you talking about?" conversations that you get.

Aren't there two dance callers - both called Vic Smith - that get booked at English folk festivals?


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 09:04 AM

"So the Gaels were amongst the oppressors as well as the oppressed."

Surely history tells us that every ethnic group has the potential to be both?

"Many Jewish songwriters and entertainers changed their names to avoid prejudice whereas Jimmy Miller changed his name to create prejudice."

Unless you want me, and others, to dismiss this as a completely fatuous and stupid remark, BB, perhaps you should explain what you mean by it.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 08:39 AM

Jim Carroll wrote:-
"Traveller John Reilly (the man who gave the world 'The Maid and the Palmer' "


The story that Jim tells is part of the whole sad story of John Reilly's life given on the comprehensive sleeve notes on the long deleted Topic album The Bonny Green Tree 12T359 (1978). It is among the top treasures in my huge collection of recordings. That song that Jim mentions - it is called The Well Below The Valley on the album - went on to become really widely sung on the folk scene, especially after it had been recorded by Planxty.
However, the best track of the many gems on that album for me is Lord Baker, John's name for "Lord Bateman", is the very best of all the recorded versions of that ballad.

Lord Baker was a very rich man:-
"You have houses and you have living,
And all Northumber belongs to thee."

For some reason this put me in mind of another very rich man, Kenneth Baker, who was the Tory Lord Chancellor around the years when I was listening to this album all the time.
Kenneth Baker ended up as Baron Baker of Dorking which I always thought made him sound like a pantomime character.

I wonder if Baron Baker of Dorking was, like Bob Dylan, interested in equality?


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 07:58 AM

Vic
"So the Gaels were amongst the oppressors as well as the oppressed."
For cultural 'oppression', you should try tip-toeing your way (very carefully) through Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann's attitude to English language singing in Ireland.
Traveller John Reilly (the man who gave the world 'The Maid and the Palmer' after its centuries-long absence from the traditional repertoire, was discovered destitute, squatting in a derelict house in Boyle and his cause was taken up by Tom Munnelly and others, who tried to get him bookings to raise some money to help him.
CCE refused to participate on the grounds that he "wasn't Sean Nos".
Reilly died of malnutrition shortly after.
Jm Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Baz Bowdidge
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 07:57 AM

Many Jewish songwriters and entertainers changed their names to avoid prejudice whereas Jimmy Miller changed his name to create prejudice.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 07:29 AM

I went to see a concert by the Carolina Chocolate Drops when they did their first British tour two or three years ago. They were superb. Most of their material came from the Medicine Show hokum tradition of the songs and tunes that both black and white performers played in these shows, but they varied their repertoire and included a couple of unaccompanied ballads from the Child canon that had been sung in the southern states black tradition - bloody good they were too.

Then Rhiannon Giddens sung a song in Gaelic which she did not say much about. I was gob-smacked. At the interval, I made a beeline for a Gaelic-speaking fiddle-playing friend of mine who was in the audience. What was her Gaelic pronunciation and accent like, I wanted to know. "Pretty damned good!" was Stephen's somewhat startled reply.

At the end of the concert Rhiannon was on merchandise and I managed to ask her how that song had come to the Carolinas. Apparently there was a cluster of plantations that were owned and worked by Gaelic speaking families so, of course, the slaves learned that language and absorbed that culture. After liberation the slave families clung to Gaelic for a while and early song collectors collected some Gaelic songs and stories from the black population.

This sounded so unlikely to me that I came home and did an internet search and found that there were masses of examples of Gaelic-speaking amongst blacks in the southern USA. My favourite reference came from http://www.ogmios.org/ogmios_files/303.htm where it mentions my favourite be-bop trumpeter:-
The Irish and Scots-Gaelic word bunkum (buanchumadh) is derived by all Anglo-American dictionaries from a shaggy-dog tale. As the story goes, during the 16th American Congress, a long-winded congressman from Buncombe County, North Carolina, spoke endlessly on a particular bill, while other members impatiently waited to vote. From then on, as the etymological bunkum goes, to talk "bunkum" meant to speak as endlessly as that long-forgotten politician from Buncombe County. (See: Bartlett, American Dictionary.)
Ironically the old congressman from Buncombe County may have been speaking Gaelic buanchumadh (pron. buan'cumah, a long made-up story) after all. North Carolina had an historic Scots-Gaelic and Irish-speaking population up until the beginning of the 20th century. The jazz musician Dizzy Gillespie's family were African-American Gaelic speakers from North Carolina and Alabama. So Buncombe County may have been the origin of bunkum as buanchumadh, (pron. buan-cumah, "a shaggy dog tale") after all.
"Under an enormous image of (Dizzy) Gillespie beamed on to a wall at Sprague (Hall), Yale music professor Willie Ruff salutes his old friend and explains to the audience how this musical journey began. "Dizzy used to tell me tales of how the blacks near his home in Alabama and in the Carolinas had once spoken exclusively in Scots Gaelic. He spoke of his love for Scotland....." (The Scotsman newspaper, Sept. 25, 2005.

So the Gaels were amongst the oppressors as well as the oppressed.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 06:37 AM

Sorry - cross posted.
I knew that Mike - again my point was the irrelevancy of 'name change'.
Karl responded topointing out his use of various names thus:
"....not a few of your readers might wonder who the hell I am, whether I call myself Karl (my first name, after Marx, which Ewan MacColl always used in addressing me), Fred (my second, after Engels, which I used as a communist activist, to avoid confusing readers of my newspaper reporting), or indeed Frank Davies, the name under which I first leapt into print as a schoolboy contributor to Challenge, the Young Communist League paper in the late Forties."
Living Tradition letters no 37.
My point has always been that the question of name-change is totally irrelevant expept when it comes in handy as yet another stone to throw at Ewan MacColl/Jimmy Miller - as illusrated perfectly by ollaimh
Jim (sometimes known as Jimmy, and here in Ireland often confused with my wife's name and called 'Pat') Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 06:22 AM

Don't know how accurate this description of MacColl's 'discovery' in the 1930s (apart from the obvious inaccuracy of describing his father as a Glaswegian).
"Ewan MacColl was himself a victim of the Depression. The son of an unemployed Glasgow steelworker, who had moved to Salford in search of work during the twenties, he had suffered every privation and humiliation that poverty could contrive for him from the age of ten. His memories of his early years are still bitter—like his recollection of how to kill aimless time in a world where there was nothing else to do: "You go in the Public Library. And the old men are there standing against the pipes to get warm, all the newspaper parts are occupied, and you pick a book up. I can remember then that you got the smell of the unemployed, a kind of sour or bitter-sweet smell, mixed in with the smell of old books, dust, leather and the rest of it. So now if I pick up, say, a Dostoievsky—immediately with the first page, there's that smell of poverty in 1931."
MacColl had been out busking for pennies by the Manchester theatres and cinemas. The songs he sang were unusual, Scots songs, Gaelic songs he had learnt from his mother, border ballads and folk-songs One night while queueing up for the three-and-sixpennies, Kenneth Adam had heard him singing outside the Manchester Paramount. He was suitably impressed. Not only did he give MacColl a handout; he also advised him to go and audition for Archie Harding at the BBC studios in Manchester's Piccadilly."
PROSPERO AND ARIEL (The rise and fall of radio, a personal recollection – D G Bridson 1971)

I never heard MacColl sing in Gaelic in public, though he did so several times in Critics Group meetings as an illustration of style.
According to a conversation I had with Salford historian Eddie Frow, his father, William Miller had "lots of old Scots songs and ballads", though I suspect many of these were fragments or incomplete, later expanded by Ewan for public performance.
I seem to remember he and Joan Littlewood did some collecting (for the BBC??) in the Highlands; it was there he got his 'Chairlie Plenderleith' stories, (and 'The Wellington Boot' about the Highlander who leaves home one morning to get his boot repaired and is away for several years, having undergone many adventures).
MacColl never claimed a Gaelic background.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 05:52 AM

Re Karl Dallas's change of name from Fred Dallas ~~

His name was,in full, Karl Frederick Dallas [or possibly Frederick Karl ~ forget which ~ no matter], named thus by his parents in honour of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. He told me this himself once, long since, at the time he made the change for journalistic professional reasons, reckoning Karl to be a more memorable or noticeable name than Fred. At least, I think he told me so himself; tho it is just possible that it was his lovely first wife Betty who told me. All so long ago ...

FWIW

~M~


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 04:53 AM

"people with that in their names are usually descended from gaelc" Your surname only shows one line of the many strands of your ancestry. Someone with no Mac in their name can potentially have far more Gaelic speaking ancestors than someone with a Mac in their name. So ignoring the latest daft rant let me ask you again. How can you possibly know that none of MacColl's ancestors spoke Gaelic or had any connection to Highlander culture? It is such an absurd statement to make. His family came from the Stirlingshire and Perthsire areas which themselves had been Gaelic speaking at one time. Unless his near ancestors had been brought in from elsewhere and had not intermarried with any locals at all then he is almost bound to have Gaelic ancestry. Likewise what makes him anti-Gaelic? Can you actually point to anything concrete at all to suggest he was? He was immersed in Lowland Scots culture but that doesn't mean you are anti-Gaelic. Again that is an absurd suggestion. I don't know but I'm supposing that MacColl was heavily influenced by the Scots Renaissance and in particular its leading exponent a Borderer called Chris Grieve who used the Gaelic sounding name Hugh MacDiarmid. Are you suggesting the writer of The Golden Wine In The Gaeltacht was anti-Gaelic for taking a Gaelic pseudonym too? He may have been a Scots speaker and written in literary Scots but he was also a strong supporter of Scotland's other traditional language.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 04:42 AM

And then there was Eric Blair = George Orwell. No-one ever went on and on and on about that because he may have written an article stating that he didn't particularly like George Formby in a magazine article in 1934!


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 04:14 AM

"A change of name is very common in the performing arts, Jim."
Where did I 'persecute' anybody for changing their name - I pointed out to somebody who claims as evidence for MacColl's 'racism' is that he changed his name to something with a 'Mac' in it, that Dylan did exactly the same - something that tends to be forgotten in these arguments. A writer on the folk scene who at one time persistently made the point about MacColl's name-change, first appeared on the scene as 'Fred' but changed it to Karl (Dallas) - so what?
I did read that Dylan changed his name because of his respect for the poet - if that's not the case, I stand corrected - but it makes no difference whatever to the basic argument.
As I've just pointed out to someone who kindly made the point to me in a PM, if I had any objection whatever to people changing their names I would never have sat though Frances Ethel Gumm's magnificent performance in 'Judgement At Nuremberg' the number of times I have - and as for listening to that John Pandrich's singing.....!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 11:22 PM

Hawk, lemmee ask you...........Do you think that MacColl in sorta' stealing the name for his dick (Timmy Toad) from Bill Shatner was more or less wrong than the Dylan thing?


Spaw


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 09:01 PM

A change of name is very common in the performing arts, Jim. Why persecute Bob Dylan over changing his? In any case, it seems that he chose the surname "Dillon" first (while still living in Minnesota), because he liked the sound of it, and he got the idea from Matt Dillon, the sherrif in the popular series "Gunsmoke". He later decided that it would look cooler to spell it "Dylan" instead, and I think he made a good choice there. So the link with Dylan Thomas was, if anything, an afterthought.

In any case, one doesn't swipe a surname. There is no copyright on surnames. One adopts a new surname if one so desires, and I see no reason why people can't legally change their names if they want to. It's their business....no one else's.

olliamh - Cultural genocide of the original Cuban inhabitants occurred a loooong time ago...during the early colonization of Cuba by the Spanish Empire. It was not orchestrated by Communists, and Cuba has NEVER been under a Stalinist system....Stalinism having been thoroughly discredited by the Russians themselves some time prior to Castro's successful revolution. I've been in Cuba in recent years, and I have never witnessed a society with a greater and more natural sense of racial and cultural equality. They put most of the rest of the world to shame in that sense. It's the only place I've ever been where I had the very clear sense that Black people were seen as completely equal in every way to other people...nobody even focused on them being "Black". It was Castro's revolution that brought about that change in attitude. Before Castro there was deep racial inequality in Cuba, gross exploitation of poor people, rampant crime, casinos, Mafia, whorehouses...a playground for rich American crooks and businessmen. Castro was the best thing that ever happened to that island.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 07:01 PM

I'm sure that I read an interview with Bob Dylan once in which he said that he didn't understand Gaelic. I think that it was published in some, now defunct, folk music mag somewhere around 1965 ... but perhaps I mis-remembered it and it's just another example of my extreme cultural paranoia.

Ruiradh McShimrod

PSSSSTTT!!! Has anyone seen a posse of Stalinist Redcoats? I think they're after me. Keep your voice down!


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 02:48 PM

"honest decent guy"
Who changed his name from Zimmerman to Dylan - swiping his pseaudenom from a WELSH poet/playwrite
Oh dear - there's always one!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 02:36 PM

Olliamh wrote:-
"bob dylan, great songwriter and great huitarist and harmonica player and a life long follower of peace justice and equality."

At http://www.famenetworth.com/2010/06/bob-dylan-net-worth.html it says:-
"Bob Dylan is an American singer-songwriter and musician, known for such hit songs as Blowin' in the Wind and Hurricane, his net worth is $80 Million."


C'mon, Bob, you are known for your "equality". I'm not worth one-thousandth of what you are. How about slipping a million dollars my way? You wouldn't miss it!

And I've always admired your huitar-playing.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 02:13 PM

I would say that Ollaimh was extremely well balanced with a chip on each shoulder.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 12:55 PM

maccoll was a racist hypocrite.

Well, I am no apologist for MacColl, though I did meet the man on occasions, but speaking as a Scot with a good knowledge of Scots history, I find that for ollaimh to draw this inference from his post of 21 Jan 12 - 11:43 AM almost beggars belief.

In fact, by the time that we get to the statement that gaels were one of the aborigional people of the celtic isles, and were destroyed by the military capitalist and supported in this by stalinists. it verges on the comical. Please could ollaimh provide some evidence of the role played by supporters of Josef Stalin in the destruction of Scots Gaeldom? I don't think that it coud have been during the Highland Clearances.

what ewan maccoll did was come and take leadership. as a good stalinist he continued the cultural genocide. as stalinists did almost every were they were in power. Really? Leadership of what? Which political power was MacColl exercising, exactly?

Wonderful stuff, ollaimh. This thread has been lacking in humour and I am really thankful to you for providing some light relief!


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: ollaimh
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 11:52 AM

bob dylan, great songwriter and great huitarist and harmonica player and a life long follower of peace justice and equality.

honest decent guy

i know who i'd rather have around


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: ollaimh
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 11:48 AM

geat song writer =racist hypocrite


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: ollaimh
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 11:43 AM

just to be clear. mac mc or m' in front of a name is a prenom that comes from a language other than english. IT'S GAELIC!!

people with that in their names are usually descended from gaelc. in our own language we called ourselves gaels. anglos from the scottish lowlands and england have called us highlanders for a long time. that's part of the cultural genocide against the gaels. it is a name designed to ignore ethnic linguistic and racial differences, hence denying the existance of a whole people and justifying thier ethnic cleansing from the highlands and islands of scotland.

circa 1745 gaels made up more than fourty per cent of the scottish population. now they are less than five per cent. the famine, the clearances and the forced immigration eliminated them from the land that the anglos wanted. after much surffering and a death rate well over fifty percent we did well in canada. however if you want to participate in gaelic culture you are welcome to come and learn.

what ewan maccoll did was come and take leadership. as a good stalinist he continued the cultural genocide. as stalinists did almost every were they were in power. look at nicaraugua, cuba and chine for communists genocide against aborigional people.

gaels were one of the aborigional people of the celtic isles, and were destroyed by the military capitalist and supported in this by stalinists.

i do not wish to ignore or denigrate the much worse genocide against africans in the slave trade and especially against the aborigionals of north america. british imperialism in the form of militray capitalism was tested on geals, and welsh then perfected on natives of north america==who got it much much worse.

maccoll was a racist hypocrite.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 04:47 AM

"Keith, you're not usually wrong about anything...."
Don't think he does irony Al
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 04:10 AM

is everybody feeling alright?

Keith, you're not usually wrong about anything....

Jim, we're talking about one of these degenerate English folk clubs where people are allowed to play music that has not been vetted by the 1954 committee.....

And still the world turns!


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 05:31 PM

I am happy to have been wrong this time.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 03:04 PM

I apologise for re-opening this thread; this should have gone off on Thursday but I have been away since then and have just returned.
Of course Brian Creer is right - I do owe the organisers of his club an apology for my inexcusable remark.
It was a knee-jerk reaction on my part to what I believe to be the condoning by trivialising unexceptable behaviour towards a group of people who have given many of us a great deal of pleasure and encouragement from folk music - in my case, most of a lifetime's worth.
This in no way excuses my suggestion that the other organisers of Bryan's Lewes Club share his views and would in any way condone the behaviour we have been discussing so heatedly.
My sincerest apologies for my remark.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 06:46 AM

"Till doomsday in the afternoon", MacColl and Seegers's book about the Stewarts of Blairgowrie, is available here.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 06:25 AM

>One that I remember is in Geordie Weir (page 247) where the first line of the chorus is given as:-
So I wish I was back in Smerendale Rye

when it was pretty obvious to me that the line was sung as:-
So I wish I was back aince mair* in Dalry,<

Superb! If I ever sing Geordie Weir I shall be sure to sing it as in Smerendale Rye.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 05:59 AM

Nor will he, from my experience.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 05:57 AM

What a pity. Just when I thought we were moving towards a sort of understanding.

A couple of points just for the record -

I did not descibe Brune's stunt as harmless. The word I used was "irresponsible". Not sure how Jim confused the two.

Jim has still not apologised for insulting the whole committee of the Lewes Saturday Folk Club and attacking the reputation of the club in his efforts to get at me.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 04:16 AM

"I am unaware of making any such statements."
No you're not Brian - you described Brune's stunt as harmless -
I'm gone
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 05:10 PM

I am unaware of making any such statements. I am unaware of distorting anything you have said. You have insulted my friends and the club we run. When I have received your apology we can dicuss the other issues.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 05:03 PM

Owen Woodson, I believe you are absolutely correct in your comments about Oligarchism.

"oligarchism is a universal tendency to be found in all societies at all times"

Right on. What led to the development of perverse forms of Fascism, Stalinism, Maoism, the Roman Catholic Church, the Spanish Inquisition, Naziism, the Roman Empire in its decline, and indeed all other oppressive systems was....the growth of a self-aggrandizing oligarchy who started running things strictly for their own benefit and for the perpetuation and enlargement of their privilege and power.

Our present society is groaning under a corrupt corporate/banking/military Oligarchy...what Eisenhower referred to as the "military-industrial complex" (he didn't mention the banks). If we end up under a totalitarian system, it will be that Oligarchy which sets it up...and it won't matter a damn what they call it. They'll probably call it "freedom" or "the free market". (Ha Ha)

****

Bruce - I looked up that link you provided, and it generated the following article on Dylan's clothing:

It has recently come to my attention that not enough people understand how great an effect Bob Dylan's clothing has had on our lives. Each day we wake up and likely have one or more of Bob Dylan's clothing styles lying at the foot of our beds. It is wonderful to be able to wake up and smile each morning because of this.

Social & Cultural Factors

Bob Dylan's clothing has played a large role in American Culture. Many people can often be seen taking part in activities associated with Bob Dylan's clothing. This is partly because people of most ages can be involved and families are brought together by this. Generally a person who displays their dislike for Bob Dylan's clothing may be considered an outcast.

Economic Factors

It is not common practice to associate economics with Bob Dylan's clothing. Generally, Bob Dylan's clothing would be thought to have no effect on our economic situation, but there are in fact some notable effects. The sales industry associated with Bob Dylan's clothing is actually a 2.3 billion dollar a year industry and growing each year. The industry employs nearly 150,000 people in the United States alone. It would be safe to say that Bob Dylan's clothing plays an important role in American economics and shouldn't be taken for granted.

Environmental Factors

After a three month long research project, I've been able to conclude that Bob Dylan's clothing doesn't negatively effect the environment at all. Bob Dylan's clothing did not seem to result in waste products and couldn't be found in forests, jungles, rivers, lakes, oceans, etc... In fact, Bob Dylan's clothing has probably produced some positive effects on the world of Nature.

Political Factors

Oh does Bob Dylan's clothing ever influence politics! Last year 5 candidates running for some sort of position used Bob Dylan's clothing as the primary topic of their campaign. A person might think Bob Dylan's clothing would be a bad topic to lead a campaign with, but in fact with the social and environmental impact it has, this topic was able to gain a great number of followers. These 5 candidates went 4 for 5 on winning their positions.

Conclusion

Bob Dylan's clothing seems to be a much more important subject than most give it credit for. Next time you see or think of Bob Dylan's clothing, think about what you just read and realize what is really going on. It is likely you under valued Bob Dylan's clothing before, but will now start to give it the credit it deserves.

Footnotes

Bob Dylan's clothing researched in wikipedia. Bob Dylan's clothing @ dictionary.com


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 04:48 PM

"A step in the right direction but a long way from the full apology I need"
It would be a step in the right direction on your part if you explained why statements you have made are not insulting when applied to MacColl, but are when suggested for your club.
An apology for the persistant distortion of my arguments would be welcome also.
Your final decision coincides with my own perfectly
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 04:20 PM

Jim Carroll

I don't believe for one minute that it would happen at your club

A step in the right direction but a long way from the full apology I need. As I said, you can insult me all you like but on this occasion, you have insulted my friends who are not involved or even aware of this discussion and attacked the reputation of the club that they and I work hard to run. Many on Mudcat know of us and how we work. The more you insult us, the more foolish you make yourself look. I have no intention of taking part in any further discussion until I get a proper apology.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 03:50 PM

however she does say, how much she liked Ewan


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 03:32 PM

Bryan,
First of all, could I sympathise with you and share your disquiet that the excellent club that you are involved with has had its reputation undermined in this way? Indeed, I feel partly responsible in that it was my complaint about Jim's insulting description of you that was followed by this unfair, untrue and uncalled for comment.

Then could I thank you very much for that link to Sheila's interview in Living Tradition? I thought that I had every copy of that magazine, but I certainly had not read that before. My memory was particularly stirred by the paragraph which reads:-

There is no such praise for 'Doomsday in the Afternoon', the "big book" about the Stewarts that Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger brought out in 1986, after 25 years in the compiling. "This horrible book! They got a lot of things wrong. They never let us go through it, we never knew that it was to be out and it caused a hell of a stink among travelling people, because he put in things that we never even said to them. We wouldnae go against wor own folk, because our life was secret, but my mother got the blame of it from the travellers."


I need to explain that from the mid 1960s onwards, I used to organise tours of south-east England for various traditional performers - to the relatively few folk clubs that were interested in hearing the authentic tradition, mainly this was for Scots travellers and mainly The Stewarts as well as Lizzie Higgins. The tours used to fall into a pattern of clubs and performers sometimes used to arrive in Lewes having been at The Singers' Club the night before. The Stewarts sometimes used to arrive in a stew (sorry!) about staying in Beckenham with Ewan & Peggy though my memory says that it was usually Peggy that was in the bad with Belle.
One time the Stewarts arrived at our house not long after the publication of Till Doomsday in the Afternoon and I had obtained and read a copy as soon as it was published. I had noticed quite a number of mistakes in the book, mainly in the transcription of the song words, One that I remember is in Geordie Weir (page 247) where the first line of the chorus is given as:-
So I wish I was back in Smerendale Rye

when it was pretty obvious to me that the line was sung as:-
So I wish I was back aince mair* in Dalry,

* aince mair = once more.

I wanted to take these mistakes up with Belle - but I didn't get a chance! She came into our house with both guns blazing about the 'bluddy awfa' book and how it was full of lies and how it was ruining the Stewarts' reputation amongst their own people and that I was never to book them into that damned club again. I remember thinking at the time that Belle often blew hot and cold about the folklorists that she encountered (Hamish Henderson amongst them) and that another time I might be hearing good things about MacColl from her. Whether the Stewarts actually did go back to the Singers' Club and to stay at Beckenham on another tour after that I cannot remember, but I'm fairly sure that they must have been back there after the publication as the Singers Club continued until 1991.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 03:20 PM

"Keep it up. You dig yourself a little deeper with every post."
You've just passed off the stunt we are discussing as harmless and still refuse to condemn such behaviour - why should my suggesting it might be what happens at your club as insulting - is is it only harmless when it is done to MacColl, Seeger and Parker? - Careful - your double standards are showing again?? - you really can't have it both ways.
I don't believe for one minute that it would happen at your club, but then again, up to now I wouldn't thought anybody would attempt to write off such behaviour as harmless - life is full of surprises, isn't it.
While we're discussing insults, you have spent a great deal of time, effort (not to mention creative writing in distorting my arguments) trying to prove I am a liar, a hypocrite and/or stupid; you have to forgive me for finding this more than a little insulting.
By the way - I can state catergotrcally that MacColl never "interrupted him (or anybody) demanding that, in future, he sing Austrian Jewish songs" (or any othe kind)
Peggy told it as it was at the Singers in her letter to The Living Tradition: it was a policy for The Singers Club residents alone.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 03:16 PM

Jim, you traveled on the London Tube "a long time ago and I think it was the uniformity of the people that struck me". What made you so different to all these other people? Judging by the flavour of many of your postings I would guess that it was because none of them were wearing blinkers.

The tube carries a huge cross section of society, nationalities, colours and creeds, business people, trades people etc. If you think that they are all uniform then then I cannot trust your assurances or judgment of people no matter how well you thought you knew them.

Hoot


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 02:55 PM

I'd go with that, Owen.

###########################################

http://www.longessays.com/

That link is for anyone who's run out of words saying the same thing over and over.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 02:50 PM

is this it:
Back in the 1960s I heard a tale about an Austrian Jew, John Brune, a friend of travellers who liked to sing their songs. When he was performing in Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger's Singers' Club in London and was in full traveller flow, Ewan had interrupted him demanding that, in future, he sing Austrian Jewish songs - it being the club's policy at the time that people sing only songs from the land or ideally the region of their birth. John, the story went, recorded himself singing a traveller song falsetto and sent it to Ewan, who then went out on a wild goose chase to look for this remarkable unknown traveller woman. I never knew the truth of the story, and was completely taken aback when Sheila began to explain why her voice never appeared on the Radio Ballad, 'The Travelling People'.

"Ewan MacColl had got a bee in his bonnet that there was one particular song that I had to learn, because he wanted me to open the programme and finish the programme. So he sent this wee Austrian man John Brune to teach me a song that had seemingly been collected from a Maggie Johnson down in England, but I had to sing it in an Irish style. And I said, 'Well I'm sorry John, but I cannae waste time, I'm at berrypicking, I need the money, I've got kids to raise.' 'That's quite all right.' he says, so he came out to the berryfields with me and he walked up and down the berryfields with me, teaching me this song, how to sing it. Then John went back, and two days before the programme was due to go out, he phoned Ewan MacColl and said, 'Ha ha, there never was a Maggie Johnson, it was me that made the song.' So Ewan panicked. The whole programme was made by this time so he had to miss me out and put in Joe Heaney (singing another song)!"


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 02:12 PM

I can put up with you insulting me, Jim, (although it would help if your attacks bore some resemblance to something I'd actually said) but with your "Feckin' about with performers' work may be what people do at Bryan's club;" you have insulted a team of hard working people you have never met and the reputation of a well respected folk club. Erstwhile members of the Critics Group seem perfectly happy to take bookings with us. A full apology as soon as you like.

Keep it up. You dig yourself a little deeper with every post. Since you say you take your values from Ewan MacColl you're not exactly doing his reputation a lot of good either.

(I really would recommend people to have a look at the Sheila Stewart interview in Living Tradition http://www.folkmusic.net/htmfiles/inart599.htm. There's some interesting stuff about MacColl in there.)


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 01:06 PM

"Not in any way, Jim. As you would know if you'd ever been there. "
Then why if Bryan defending it here?
Messing round with what others are doing is, at the very least unethical, in this case it goes beyond that with what 'The Travelling People' was and what it managed to achieved - appears to be fine with Bryan, or at least, not worth his commenting on.
At the very least it forced a hard pressed production team working to a deadline have to re-do part of the programme a few days before it was due to be broadcast.
MacColl is accused often enough of having told people what to do yet it's fine for Bryan to say "why didn't he get her to sing something from her own family tradition?" which sounds very much like somebody telling the producers of the programme what they should be doing
Double standards or what?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 11:57 AM

great name for a band

The Mealy Mouthed Apologists

And who was the first person to notice that apologists had mealy mouths? And which meal....breakfast, oatmeal?


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