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Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?

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Jim Carroll 11 Jan 12 - 10:01 AM
Baz Bowdidge 11 Jan 12 - 09:21 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jan 12 - 09:02 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jan 12 - 08:57 AM
Trevor Thomas 11 Jan 12 - 08:50 AM
Little Hawk 11 Jan 12 - 08:47 AM
GUEST 11 Jan 12 - 07:55 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jan 12 - 06:45 AM
TheSnail 11 Jan 12 - 06:39 AM
MGM·Lion 11 Jan 12 - 06:04 AM
GUEST,folknob 11 Jan 12 - 05:35 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 11 Jan 12 - 05:14 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jan 12 - 04:19 AM
Tootler 10 Jan 12 - 06:48 PM
Little Hawk 10 Jan 12 - 05:26 PM
The Sandman 10 Jan 12 - 05:25 PM
Stringsinger 10 Jan 12 - 05:20 PM
Spleen Cringe 10 Jan 12 - 03:35 PM
GUEST,Don Wise 10 Jan 12 - 03:11 PM
TheSnail 10 Jan 12 - 02:18 PM
GUEST,grumpy 10 Jan 12 - 02:05 PM
Acorn4 10 Jan 12 - 02:01 PM
The Sandman 10 Jan 12 - 01:48 PM
Baz Bowdidge 10 Jan 12 - 12:53 PM
Will Fly 10 Jan 12 - 12:21 PM
Little Hawk 10 Jan 12 - 12:13 PM
Acorn4 10 Jan 12 - 10:25 AM
Mark Ross 10 Jan 12 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 10 Jan 12 - 09:23 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jan 12 - 08:30 AM
The Sandman 10 Jan 12 - 08:16 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 10 Jan 12 - 07:32 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jan 12 - 04:06 AM
Little Hawk 09 Jan 12 - 11:23 PM
GUEST,scratch 09 Jan 12 - 08:00 PM
Tootler 09 Jan 12 - 06:59 PM
The Sandman 09 Jan 12 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,C. Ham 09 Jan 12 - 12:49 PM
Big Al Whittle 09 Jan 12 - 12:43 PM
Dave Sutherland 09 Jan 12 - 11:22 AM
Baz Bowdidge 09 Jan 12 - 11:07 AM
Mark Ross 09 Jan 12 - 09:54 AM
Baz Bowdidge 09 Jan 12 - 08:39 AM
Baz Bowdidge 09 Jan 12 - 07:55 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jan 12 - 04:07 AM
Joe_F 08 Jan 12 - 06:01 PM
Baz Bowdidge 08 Jan 12 - 02:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 10:01 AM

"Ten minutes is enough for me Jim."
Takes all kinds Baz - leaves me to wonder about the fact that The Singers Club was crammed to the gunn'ls every night MacColl and Seeger performed there, and if you were out of London, you stood in a queue to hear them - and Ewan's albumms are still being issued 20 odd years after he stopped making them.
Thought somebody had alread dealt with Peggy's musicianship - must have different ideas about 'tuning'
Perhaps you could point out exactly where her guitar, banjo, autoharp, dulcimer, citern, concertina... or whatever she turned her hand to, was out of tune - sounded fine to me in November, when we saw her.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Baz Bowdidge
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 09:21 AM

>for the 50 years I have been listening to his singing<
Ten minutes is enough for me Jim.
(worsened by that out-of-tune guitar)
Baz


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 09:02 AM

Sorry LH - cross posted
"basically a joke" - sorry, didn't strike me as such, but there again, I never did find Bernard Manning particularly funny
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 08:57 AM

"....start laying into someone else."
Is this anywhere near an accurate description of what happens in these arguments Brian?
I have been witnessing atacks on MacColl - both as an individual and as an artist - for the 50 years I have been listening to his singing.
Any arguments I have taken part in have usually centered on misrepresentation, deliberate or otherwise, of what he said and what he believed about folk music; attempts to contradict and correct these usually culminating in such predictable crassness as "takes the name of the Blessed Ewan in vain".
Here I have responded as best I can to the question in hand "Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?"; if I have not managed to match your level of cutting-edge debate, my apologies; we do what we can with what the good lord gave us.
Any opinion I have offered about Dylan's music, here or elsewhere, have been based on how I feel about him as a performer and nothing whatever about how I feel about MacColl; I don't belive I have ever sunk to the level that some of the postings on any of these threads - correct me if I have.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Trevor Thomas
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 08:50 AM

Guest post above (7.55) was me.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 08:47 AM

I assumed that the Guest post on Ewan's "despising young people, anti-Americanism, anti Semitism, and jealousy" was basically a joke, Jim, posted somewhat tongue in cheek, and I reacted accordingly to it. It sounded like it was humorously intended to me...although there might be more than a grain of truth in it (aside from the anti-Jewish part).

I say anti-Jewish, because I don't use the term anti-Semitism. Arabs and Palestinians are Semites too, after all, so I think it's a deeply misleading and patently dishonest term that should be consigned to the trash barrel of political history).


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 07:55 AM

If McColl criticised Dylan for being 'derivative' and 'old hat', then I find that particularly hilarious, in view of his own output.

Where folk music is concerned, if it's not derivative then it's not 'authentic', and the older the 'hat', the better.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 06:45 AM

Sorry Derek - not the point of my argument - MacColl disliked Dylan's music, so did/do many others, including me.
Here Ewan appears to be accused of mounting a vendetta against Dylan - based on jealousy, anti-Americanism, anti-Semitism, dislike of young people....
I asked how Ewan's dislike manifested itself - I provided an example of an article written 47 years ago, you gave an example of his personal attitude expressed at home.
If that's it - what's the big deal - aren't we allowed to express an opinion on singers we don't reckon?
I've never claimed Ewan didn't dislike Dylan's music, I do say that his few public comments on it measure somewhat small against the vituprative hatred macColl was subjected to, both during his lifetime and even 20-odd years after his death:
"Who really cares what that obnoxious self righteous prat thought?
Wasn't fit to lick Dylan's boots!!!"
It seems that NECROPHOBIA STILL RULES - OK, wouldn't you say?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 06:39 AM

Jim Carroll

I'm puzzled too - If MacColl did dislike Dylan - how did that dislike manifest itself? - nothing has been put up here as far as I can see.

A very good question, Jim, which Derek has already partially answered (having got up and put his trousers on I hope). I would also like to know. But it doesn't answer my question as to why a number of people, including you to some extent, feel that the appropriate response is to rubbish Dylan. I have no particular flag to fly for Dylan (although, like Don Wise and Tootler, he was my route into folk music in the sixties) but it's a tendency I have seen before; when somebody takes the name of the Blessed Ewan in vain, start laying into someone else. Some of the people who have come under attack in the past are people I know and admire. I don't want to be forced into an anti-MacColl position when I have nothing against the man. I would rather have a clear, objective discussion of the history of the history of the folk revival that I have had a small part in.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 06:04 AM

Congratulations, folknob, on one of the best-chosen poster-nicknames one has ever come across...


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,folknob
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 05:35 AM

Who really cares what that obnoxious self righteous prat thought?

Wasn't fit to lick Dylan's boots!!!


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 05:14 AM

I hate to disagree with Jim, whose collecting I much admire, and whose defence of MacColl I also admire, though I don't always agree with what he says! .... but ... he wanted some evidence of macColl's attitude towards Dylan, so here's some:

In Kirsty MacColl: The One and Only: A Biography by Karen O'Brien, page 26:

Hamish macColl realls once answering the phone at home and being stunned to hear a voice he'd only ever heard singing some of the best-known songs of the sixties.

"It was Bob Dylan, wanting to speak to my dad. But my dad hated Bob Dylan, he hated the Beatles, so he answered the phone and spoke to him in this very snotty voice and basically told him to fuck off - although not in those exact words! he had a big chip on his shoulder. My dad would have been the best capitalist in the world; he would have out-Rupert Murdoch-ed Rupert Murdoch, because he was very competitive. he didn't like the fact that the Beatles were instantly famous when he'd worked at it all his life!"

In Ewan's mind, says Hamish, there were only three kinds of authentic music that were worthy of his approval: "Classical music, traditional folk music and jazz. That was it. Everything else was rubbish as far as he was concerned. That didn't sit too well with either me or Kirsty, because we were both quite into the charts and pop music."

That's the end of the quote. Now I realise that Hamish and Kirsty were the children of Ewan and Jean Newlove, and that Ewan left Jean for Peggy and that the 2 children therefore no doubt had a particular view about their part-time dad, but....

Derek


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 04:19 AM

"I'm puzzled. If MacColl didn't dislike Dylan, why are so many people so determined to prove that he was entirely justified in doing so? "
I'm puzzled too - If MacColl did dislike Dylan - how did that dislike manifest itself? - nothing has been put up here as far as I can see.
MacColl wrote a short satirical article on Dylan for a Karl Dallas magazine 47 years ago, for which he has been accused of despising young people, anti-Americanism, anti Semitism, and jealousy.
Is it too much to ask for evidence for such accuastions? - suppose it is really!!!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Tootler
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 06:48 PM

I would suggest that,in the UK of the sixties, Dylan probably introduced more young people to folk music than Commissar MacColl and his coterie in 'The Smoke' did

True for me. Dylan, Peter, Paul and Mary & Tom Paxton were early influences plus the Spinners & Pentangle. It was through the latter two that I began to discover my own folk song heritage. I only discovered Ewan MacColl later, though I did come across some of his songs through the Spinners and the University Folk Club.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 05:26 PM

As far as live performing goes, I think Bob Dylan was at his absolute peak in 1975 on the Rolling Thunder Revue tour. He was happy, energized, and inspired. He was also absolutely sure that Rubin Carter was an innocent man (after reading Carter's book which was written in prison), was outraged at his unjust imprisonment, and did a great deal to help Carter's cause and raise money and legal help for him. He also visited him in jail. That speaks well for Mr Dylan.

Joan Baez, who has always been committed to progressive social causes, has made comments about Dylan and the early protest songs. She says she doesn't buy the notion that he wrote them simply to cash in on a popular political phase. She thinks he wrote them out of genuine feeling for the issues they expressed. So do I. The fact that he wanted to move on from that phase after about 3 years does not in any way invalidate what went before, because he has moved on similarly from virtually every other phase he ever went through. He doesn't like standing still. And I can understand why.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 05:25 PM

'Four or five good songs'? You've no idea about Dylan, have you, GSS?"
yes I have, and so have you, we both have opinions, I think yours are crap,and you think mine are crap. well whats new, lets agree to disagree.
what is a fact is Dylan's dropping of Paul Metser's song, nohing like helping another songwriter, and then there is PaulClayton's song and DONT THINK TWICE


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 05:20 PM

L.H. I have learned to mistrust biographies over the years, having lived through the times and met some of the biographees personally.

The angry making thing which really in life is trivial is that Bob Dylan became associated as a representative of folk music, not that he wasn't an important pop star.

McColl was not a pop star and loved traditional music, working to encourage the collection and interest of it in Britain.

Another dubious point is that Dylan purported to write "protest" music without protesting against anything himself. He kept himself aloof.

I am not castigating Dylan for his success, he obviously has earned it, but don't like
the false representation he conveys. He is not Woody despite the early image that he lifted from Woody.

I don't really care what music Dylan wants to or doesn't want to play.

He is another media personality like Elvis, (who I have grown to like), or any other
pop star in the music biz firmament. There is nothing wrong with being a pop star as
long as you don't pass him/her off as a traditional folk singer or even "protest" singer.

There is so much BS in the music business. 75% of it is about the image conveyed.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 03:35 PM

Actually, I don't give a toss i) if Ewan McColl didn't like Bob Dylan and ii) why Ewan McColl didn't like Bob Dylan. This thread does show that his Bobness still causes a hell of a lot of teeth grinding and clothes rending in some quarters.

Bearing this in mind you might not want to watch these wonderful live clips:

Bob Dylan - Simple Twist Of Fate (Live 1975)

Bob Dylan - Hurricane (Live 1975)


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 03:11 PM

Who cares? Seems to me that the whole matter is merely a footnote of history to be turned over and over again by people with too much time on their hands and perhaps a few axes to grind.
I would suggest that,in the UK of the sixties, Dylan probably introduced more young people to folk music than Commissar MacColl and his coterie in 'The Smoke' did. Those of us in the 'provinces' didn't subscribe to Sing-Out or whatever. We happily gave out our pocket money for Dylans records,learnt the songs,discovered a local folk club where we could even play and slowly began a journey by which we eventually arrived, perhaps, at traditional music.
Furthermore one should perhaps look at the MacColl-Dylan thing in terms of the sixties in the UK. As Dylan perceptively noted, "The Times Were a'Changing", not only in music but also in the theatre, cinema, fashion, art, social attitudes etc.etc. A lot of 'established' people who had no doubt believed that when, from whatever direction, the revolution came they would obviously be asked to 'look after and guide' their particular field, found themselves being overtaken quickly on the inside. The general response to this was to slag off the supposedly 'untalented' etc.,etc., who were setting the pace and cocking a snook at accepted procedures, structures etc. In this sense,in so far as Commissar MacColl apparently slagged off BD he was doing no more than others of his generation were doing in their respective fields.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 02:18 PM

I'm puzzled. If MacColl didn't dislike Dylan, why are so many people so determined to prove that he was entirely justified in doing so?


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,grumpy
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 02:05 PM

'Four or five good songs'? You've no idea about Dylan, have you, GSS?

If you're wondering what I'm on about, get hold of a copy of 'Highway 61 Revisited', or 'Blonde on Blonde' or 'Blood on the Tracks'.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Acorn4
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 02:01 PM

GSS - you learn things all the time! - I didn't know that - we know Paul M quite well and never realised that Bob D covered it as well as Nic Jones. Will ask Paul next time we see him - good news is he's gigging again!


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 01:48 PM

Bob Dylan the singer who was happy to sing Paul Metsers song Farewell to the gold, all the time he thought it was traditional, but immediately dropped it when he found it was another contemporary singer songwriters composition, yes Bob wrote four or five good songs, but he was a much bigger pillock [imo] than Ewan.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Baz Bowdidge
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 12:53 PM

Was Dylan a one-man band? Of course not, from the start he had management (Hammond and Grossman) and the marketing force (Rock Machine) of Columbia Records (CBS now Sony) behind him.
He still has and touring worldwide at 70.
His relentless output culminated in creating the brilliant BD and The Band.
The Band were brilliant in their own right - 'The Last Waltz' is one of my favourite movies (clips on Youtube). A DVD I recommend.
If the answer to this thread was ever true McColl's dislike was decided in a fleeting moment in time compared to the 50 year career of billionaire Bob Dylan.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 12:21 PM

Thanks for that bit of common sense, LH. As someone who, over the years, has played everything from traditional tunes to blues, ragtime, '20s dance music, '50s rock'n roll, '60s funk & southern soul, jazz and more, that's exactly how some minds work. I've even made a modest income (at times) from doing this. It's a marvellous way of improving your musical knowledge and - though you might not think so - immersing yourself in a musical genre for two or three years at a time is intensely satisfying. Why, I've even played the odd Dylan song - many, many years ago.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 12:13 PM

It should be plainly clear to anyone who reads a number of excellent biographies of Bob Dylan that he was tremendously enthusiastic about playing music...and that his enthusiasm kept him moving rapidly through various styles of music until he had thoroughly gone into them and done everything he was curious about...then he usually moved on to something else.

This does not imply a grand scheme to make money, it implies a natural enthusiasm for the music.

His first strong interest was: the country music of Hank Williams. This was when he was a young teenager.

Next: Rock and roll by Buddy Holly, Little Richard, and others. His love for that music led to him forming and fronting some high school bands which played VERY LOUD rock music. Dylan played piano in some of those bands, Little Richard style, and he played electric guitar. One of those bands was called The Golden Chords.

Next: He became fascinated by acoustic folk & blues music, got rid of the electric guitar, and started listening to every old blues and folk record he could find, borrow...or steal! He devoured the old blues and folk ethos and started covering songs by everyone from Odetta to Woody Guthrie, with Guthrie being the biggest influence.

Nothing could be more obvious than that he did it because he loved their music and wanted to be like them. This had also been the case previously with his interest in Hank Williams, Buddy Holly, etc.

Isn't that why we all go into music when we're young? We LIKE it, that's why. And we want to do it ourselves.

So Dylan was still in the acoustic folk/blues idiom when his career really began, and he turned out to be very good at it, but more importantly, he turned out to have a gift for writing a lot of new songs, and songs which were admirably suited for the time.

He always dove into a new interest and immersed himself in it...usually for a period of about 3 years, I'd say, until he'd done it "to the nines", as the expression goes...meaning to the limit. And then...he would get restless for something new, and he'd move on.

For people to cast this as some sort of Machiavellian scheme on Dylan's part to make a ton of money reveals nothing about Bob Dylan, but reveals something about the deep cynicism and negativity and sheer nastiness of themselves in regards to reacting to another person's success.

To assert that he went "religious" in the late 70's as a marketing ploy is utterly asinine. His move to what seemed like a very dour Christian fundamentalism alienated and drove away probably 2/3 or more of his past loyal audience...and certainly did not attract enough new audience to make up for that. It really pissed off and puzzled a lot of his former fans.

Hell, the man always played only the music he wanted to play, period. He did exactly what he wanted to do at any given time. Sometimes it helped his career, sometimes it lost him a big chunk of his audience and hurt his career, but he did what he wanted to do, not what the public wanted him to do, and he had enough real talent to survive the backlash to the changes he made.

And that's why people got angry at him. He wasn't out to please them, he was out to do whatever fulfilled him and made him feel like playing music. As soon as he got bored with anything, he moved on.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Acorn4
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 10:25 AM

Yet when everything else was going heavy metal/progressive, Dylan made a country and western album.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Mark Ross
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 09:31 AM

They used to say in NYC's Greenwich Village that Dylan could give opportunism a bad name.

Mark Ross


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 09:23 AM

I've just read the comment from 'Guestscratch' that one of the reasons why MacColl didn't like Dylan was because he (Dylan) was Jewish! Now that really is a low and loathsome blow!

I didn't know MacColl well but he was an important figure, among many of my peers and I, when I was a teenager and a young adult. I can assure you that there was never a hint of any racism in that milieu - in fact anti-racism was a powerful theme. There was certainly never a hint of anti-semitism, and any such prejudice would have been regarded with horror!


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 08:30 AM

Alan
Dylan sang the songs yet distanced himself from the actual movement - see Civil Rights/Theodor Bikel story.
I wouldn't want to be dogmatic about it but I remember a description of Dylan by Joan Baez - must admit he came over as a user.
Anyway - all water under the bridge now
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 08:16 AM

dylan later jumped on theGod BANDWAGON, He was fairly good at having an eye for bandwagons to jump on, a sort of Michael Mainchance, perhaps EWAN had him sussed as a careerist protest singer than later a careerist later day gospel singer,god monger


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 07:32 AM

Agree with the overall post Jim but is it fair to say Dylan milked the protest song market then moved on? It was before my time but from documentaries etc I have seen it looked like while it may well indeed have been a bit of a bandwagon he was on - he jumped off it while there was still a body of people who wanted much more of the same from him. Couldn't part of his change just have been that he just wanted to play some of what was emerging and what we now call rock music?


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 04:06 AM

Guest scratch -
1 MacColl devoted a night a week for over six years to work with young singers - name one one other professional singer who did that!
2 He was married to an American, brother in law to Mike and Pete Seeger, son-in-law to Charles Seeger, performed regularly with Americans like Tom Paley, Jack Warshaw and Buff Rosenthall and a close friend of Alan Lomax who flew across from the States especially to take part in the symposium held on his 70th birthday.
3 He devoted too much of his working life to anti-racist causes to have been one himself
4 He had no reason to be jealous - he wasn't in the same field of work as Dylan - who pissed of to become a pop star anyway as soon as he'd milked the protest song market dry.
Next???
Don't suppose you've any examples of MacColl's dislike of Dylan either - won't hold my breath.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 11:23 PM

Well said! ;-D And with such brevity.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,scratch
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 08:00 PM

1. Because he was young.
2. because he was American.
3. Because he was Jewish.
4. Because he was jealous.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Tootler
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 06:59 PM


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 02:12 PM

baz, Ewan sang skiffle too?so why should he be think skiffle was watery pap. From what I can make out, he was not against skiffle, but believed that the traditional music of the british isles should be encouraged and promoted, he did point out to Lisa Turner when she sang an american song at the club he was involved in, that the club had a policy which was:singers should sing songs from their own tradition.
Ewan was only one of the several people who decided this policy.
was Tom Paley one of the organisers? nobody rails against Tom, I mean he is a lovely guy, but it seems EWAN takes all the flack.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,C. Ham
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 12:49 PM

"Paxton and Lehrer were for the most part satirists."

To say that, Frank, I suspect you haven't heard a lot of Tom Paxton's output. Yes, he has written many, many satirical songs, but they hardly make up the "most part" of his songwriting catalog. He's also written many deadly serious songs, personal songs, children's songs, etc.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 12:43 PM

I get the distinct impression that more has been said about what Ewan said on Dylan than he ever actually said. I wonder whether it would please him that he are talking about this minor quibble all these years later.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 11:22 AM

Mark, a lot of the reported speech in these posts where MacColl disparages Dylan's work emanate from the original Sing Out article.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Baz Bowdidge
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 11:07 AM

Apparently it was 'watery pap' and 'tenth-rate drivel'.
McColl fitted my dad's and uncle's critical post-Victorian generation and location all 'stodgy' attitudes and in Beckenham!(my uncle's house was actually 300yds from McColl).
I always felt war-time austerity and living through it made them like that.
In fact in the 60's if there was anything new and a bit flash my dad would dismiss it as an 'American idea'.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Mark Ross
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 09:54 AM

EM wrote a piece, I think for Sing Out!, which was re-published in a paperback on the Great American Folksong Revival (pardon me, but my brain is not working as well as it could this early). He clearly disses Dylan's writing. When I wake up, I will search for the book and post again later.


Mark Ross


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Baz Bowdidge
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 08:39 AM

>From: Joe_F - PM
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 06:01 PM
Did he have a crib pasted on his guitar? He kept looking down<

I thought that too Joe or could have been track sheet style floor gaffered.

Baz


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Baz Bowdidge
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 07:55 AM

>As far as I know, MacColl seldom commented on what was going on in the revival - except maybe in privare conversations - there; I'd be very grateful if aybody could point out any examples of him having done so and where I can get hold of them.
Jim Carroll<
I thought the whole dislike thing was legendary as if he ever did analyse CG style clearly in writing he summed up 'Bobby Dylan's' repetoire as 'watery pap'.
To me McColl comes across as a manifest of creative intelligence and narrow-mindedness and it must have been hard for him to see his beloved 'traditional roots' evolve and descend into watery pap of skiffle, folk-rock, East Coast, West Coast etc.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 04:07 AM

"no suggestion that this was a public exercise. "
Then how would anybody know MacColl analysed Dylan's songs if he didn't discuss them. I can't find any reference to him having done so, other than the Speedwell article (1965); at the time many people in the revival (described by Edward Lee as 'The Old Guard') looked on Dylan as a diversion to their aim of persuading folk enthusiasts examining their own traditions rather than turning to the US, as they had in the past - a suggestion of Alan Lomax's in the early 50s.
Sorry - this is all a bit of a waste of time.
In the sixties everybody (for or against) was talking about Dylan - Dylan moved away from folk song and did something else - the songs being cited here are at least four decades old.
As far as I know, MacColl seldom commented on what was going on in the revival - except maybe in privare conversations - there; I'd be very grateful if aybody could point out any examples of him having done so and where I can get hold of them.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Joe_F
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 06:01 PM

Did he have a crib pasted on his guitar? He kept looking down.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Baz Bowdidge
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 02:28 PM

Pete Seeger himself approved of the 'young fella' despite his reported derision of his later output.
Click Here
Perhaps being 'Anti-Dylan' was a family thing.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 02:00 PM

I always thought Bob Dylan's sense of humour pretty good.

However both paxton and Dylan wrote some beautiful lyrical pieces.

I think this is crazy stuff. Its like when my dad used to say Picasso was rubbish - and all abstract painting was just people who couldn't draw.

If you don't get MacColl, paxton or Dylan - its your loss. And given the availability of these very successful artists work - I think you're being as cussed as my Dad was.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 01:31 PM

Paxton and Lehrer were for the most part satirists. Their material was topical. They were also funny. Not true with Dylan.

Jim, I'm sure that McColl analyzed Dylan's songs, maybe not in print. As a devotee of traditional ballad forms, there would have had to been a comparison in his mind.
I know that Peggy would have made some.

The idea that rules are arbitrary obstructions in any art form is not understood. There are principles that are contained in good songs such as 1. specificity 2. economy of words 3. painting word pictures 4. a stanza that scans cohesively 5. a singable tune that is wedded to the lyric 6. an avoidance of cliche images 7. a relevance for the time you live in and oxymoronically all time. (There are more).

I have never attended a songwriting workshop that made much sense except maybe one.
Lehman Engel's BMI Musical Theater Workshop in L.A. Most workshops are conducted by songwriters who go along with the prevailing kinds of songs that they hear in clubs, radio, etc. Songs become vogue-ish.

I agree with LH in that songs are a matter of taste. Some are in bad taste. I could elaborate but I don't want to beat this subject to death.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 11:23 AM

"Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: meself - PM
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 09:16 PM

So - Dylan's songs don't pass the "song writing workshop" test? Oh, dear.

And MacColl "analysed dylans songs" - and? I suppose he too found they didn't pass the "song writing workshop" test? Well, that settles it," I did not say that.
Finally,MacColl may never have admitted that he listened to Dylans songs, but in the 1960s they were rather difficult to avoid listening too, and of course I was surmising, but as someone that has attempted and written songs[not that I am in MacColls class]I do analyse other peoples songs as I am sure most song writers including MacColl do and did


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