Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 05:44 PM

It was Ewan, actually, not "Ewen." If he was a grumpy old sod, then equally it could be said that Dylan is an exceptionally ignorant old sod. As if it matters. Which it doesn't. Grumpy old sods are often grumpy because they have to deal with twats. The greatest man who ever lived, Ludwig van Beethoven, was the grumpiest old sod in eternity. He offended his friends, alienated his fellow musicians and accused all and sundry of cheating him out of his money. Who cares. Just listen to the sonata in A flat, Op. 110. That'll shut you up.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 05:12 PM

An earlier posting in this thread:

"Dylan joined the pantheon of successful Jewish songwriters and musicians (most of whom also changed their names):"

I would put it, (if it must be put at all), that Dylan joined the pantheon of successful songwriters who were of Jewish origin.
There's a bit of separatism and more than a bit of condescension in how many of the 'trad' crowd view those of certain ethnic origins.

For the record, Ewen MacColl was born James Henry Miller.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 12:23 PM

It is not trivial nitpicking to ask that people verify accusations. I have heard this Dylan story many times, I was curious as the source. Simple as that. It is pompous asses like you Jack who make people want to be anonymous.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 11:11 AM

Many people have good reason for remaining Guests

Mainly, and in your case, because they think they'd never live it down if their friends knew they indulged in such trivial nitpicking.

Hint: your friends know you're a pettifogging twat already.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 10:24 AM

Jim, you appear to have changed your story, you said that Bikel approached Dylan and offered him a ticket. But Bikel did not approach Dylan, he approached Dylans r Manager, Albert Grossman, to whom he gave money to cover Dylans fare to Mississippi. So you now seem to accept that Bikel did not speak to Dylan on this subject. That is how your narrative has changed.
Sandman, my many years of coming to this forum leads me to observe that people seem only to wish to ban Guests who disagree with them. That is certainly true below the line.
Many people have good reason for remaining Guests and should not be barred from music discussion because they may disagree with other posters.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 08:46 AM

And so it goes.

Jim Carroll defending MacColl whilst adding Bobby Kennedy to the list of people he slurs. Someone getting songs mixed up whilst pointing out Dylan isn't right wing enough for him and more than one on here calling others liars without foundation on the basis it makes their waffle look flaky.   Heresay regarding both protagonists in the thread title from all of us and what do you get?

I've never met Dylan, a few concerts are the nearest I've got. I know a few people who knew him many years ago and to be honest, even their first hand knowledge isn't enough for me to think I know something about this complicated genius.

I met MacColl a number of times though, booked them twice and interviewed them for radio twice. I'm no expert on him, just as nobody else is, but I can agree with those who mention he was a grumpy old sod who tried laying down arbitrary rules about what is at the end of the day just entertainment. I hadn't been born in 1954 never mind took minutes of a committee convened to get excited about putting rules around artistic creation...

MacColl's view on Dylan? About as relevant as my rants about celery and greyhound cruelty. Both genuine but at the end of the day, facts about my views, not debating points.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 08:31 AM

It's a load of invented crap anyway
If a member of the Singers Club had behaved like that to a visitor, he'd have been heaved out on his ear
Another of those urban legends
Don't know where Ollie is from, but how the **** did his "hard faced guy" know where he came from
Jeeze - if you're going to invent stories you need a bit more imagination than that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 08:12 AM

The Dark Island is a "pop" song anyway, written for a TV series of the same name.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 04:15 AM

some hard faced super serious guy was singing dark island in english. back in nova scotia we sang the verses in english but the chorus in gaelic. so i was excited, they were singing a song i knew! (first one) then they got to the chorus and i was the only one singing "oh chi , chi me na morbheanna"

So you were singing the chorus of a completely different song.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 04:03 AM

Ollie's post was exactly what I needed as an example of the totally irrational attitude to MacColl and his work
A vitriolic outpouring of abuse from someone who has obviously never met him or spoken to him and saw he one "as a teenager".
An outpouring of hate from someone accusing MacColl of "hate", from an anonymous individual using a faake name castigating MacColl for using a fake name - you couldn't make it up
I couldn't have got a better example if I had faked it myself
Many thanks Ollie - give my love to Stan
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 03:00 AM

ollaimh, is ' Bob Dylan ' not a fake name then ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 02:28 AM

"however what he knew was just hate."
Which just about sums up your posting Ollie
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: ollaimh
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 12:48 AM

i am not a dylan fan. however he was a great very good song writer who didn't do anything hypocritical just promoted himself. that's show biz.

on the other hand mccoll
s adoption of a fake gaelic name, the name of one of the last of the great gaelic bards in the ancient tradition, was cultural appropriation amounting to racism. so i should call my self william shakespeare. if dylan had done that people would have howled but mccoll's appropriation shows the total distain for gaels amongst our british friends. they committed genocide so they continue with cultural genocide. mccoll was a decent song writer but a garden variety brit racist.

i went to his singers club once as a teenager on the europe tour. some hard faced super serious guy was singing dark island in english. back in nova scotia we sang the verses in english but the chorus in gaelic. so i was excited, they were singing a song i knew! (first one) then they got to the chorus and i was the only one singing "oh chi , chi me na morbheanna" etc. they all stopped and stared at me. i stopped . the hard faced guy came over and said we sing the songs of our own country. i said that's a song from my country. he said no it's not. i was young and didn't understand their complicated theories of hate for gaels. i just thought well he must know something i don't know ans shut up and left.

    anglos think if their hate is complicated enough then it's ok, trump didn't jump from the head of zeus full grown, he's a the fulillment of anglo culture. (as is richard bridges and his hate)

however what he knew was just hate.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 07:59 PM

Mathew
I sent you an e-mail
reply so I know I have our address right
Jim

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Mathew
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 07:09 PM

Jim, please let me know about those recordings.

Sandman, you're a silly sod

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 03:36 PM

So he wasn't guilty but the accusation was a good one.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 03:06 PM

"But he DID go, Jim."
Reluctantly, it would appear
It really isn't that important now - just an indication of how shallow his commitment to the people he sang about was.
It is also how shallow the whole of the sixties was - it took Paris to shake it out of its lethargy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 02:59 PM

But he DID go, Jim.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 02:40 PM

Dylan made his name as a 'protest singer' and did quite well out of it.
Going to Mississippi would have been a small thank you for a launched career
I saw the remarkable Baldwin documentary last week which told how Bobby Kennedy was invited to walk into the all-white school in Louisiana with the brave black girl, Ruby Bridges
He declined
What a difference it would have made if a few more personalities had put their money where their mouths were
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 02:03 PM

imo,The sooner guest postings are banned on this forum the better

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 01:30 PM

Look, a miniscule number of people who supported the civil rights movement actually went to Mississippi. Bob Dylan was one of them.

The vast majority did not. I was one of them and so, I am pretty sure, are most of the posters here who ragged on him.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 12:08 PM

"I have no argument about McColl. My question was about the veracity of your ever changing Dylan story."
I've never changed it - if I have, where?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 11:58 AM

With at least four people who could have directly reported the story, it's surprising it hasn't diverged more.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 11:08 AM

I have no argument about McColl. My question was about the veracity of your ever changing Dylan story.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 10:14 AM

"This seems to cast aspersions on Dylans character without there being a shred of evidence."
I've had to get used to that sort of thing in the arguments I have had about MacColl down the years, comes with the territory, I'm afraid
It seems those who are still hppy to dance on MacColl's grave are not as happy when it happens to their particular flavours of the month.
I first came across the story in the Irish Times and it was confirmed in a brief conversation I had with Pete Seeger the only we met him while we were recording choruses for Ewan's 'White Wind' South African piece
Not prepared to go any further than that - sorry
And people wonder why I bother with stories about MacColl
Ah well!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 09:56 AM

I definitely remember Ewan 's name being in the Singing Together book for some reason or other.

he was always present. When I first used to buy Oak publications books of folksongs - some of his songs were always in there.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 09:09 AM

Neither can I find any evidence that Pete Seeger or anyone else approached Dylan about going to Mississippi or that he ever refused to go. This seems to cast aspersions on Dylans character without there being a shred of evidence. So an I an curious about this story which is often repeated here.What is the actual source?

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 08:04 AM

I was playing folk songs in 1958, age 7, mainly american folk songs, we were taught english folk songs at primary school, o no john nightingale early one morning boney was a warrior, i dont think schools radio was anmything to do with Ewan. I seem to remember tubby the tuba was one, that doesnt sound like ewans style.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Mathew
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 06:29 AM

I just find it so interesting to hear candid sounds of one of my idols from someone who knew him personally.

I may be having a bit of a fan boy moment, but I cannot wait to listen to these recordings.



I could help you organize them, if you'd like, depending on how you want it to be organized

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Mathew
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 05:42 AM

Thank you very much Jim,

[e-mail]   (


(My public email so I don't mind giving it out here)


I really appreciate this, is there anything I need to do with dropbox aside from enabling it with my email?

I used to be a member but it has been so long that I forget the information.

Maybe I should rectify that soon.

Again, thanks a million mate, I think this is so cool.


Mathew Ferrari

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 04:05 AM

Born in 1949 - I wasn't going to folk clubs in the 1950's.

the first folk music, as folk, was aware of was probly stuff on the mainstream radio - the kingston trio singing Tom Dooley.

the first folksong that registered as relevant to me was Seeger's Where have all the flowers gone? A short bike ride from our town Boston, in LIncolnshire took you past THor missiles loaded with an H bomb presumably pointed at Moscow.

having said that - the schools radio (which Ewan must have had some input with) taught us many UK folksongs from when we were very small.

i wonder if they had accompanied the singing together material with guitar instead of piano - would we have made the connection, and prevented the internecine traddy/contemporary warfare that has dogged so much of the folk music revival.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 03:39 AM

Mathew
Yes - I have masses of recordings of Ewan's classes - too many to get organised, truth be told.
If you let me have an e-mail address I am happy to pass some on via Dropbox.
As you're a non-member, best ask Joe Offer - he has been kind enough to help before.
Pat and I did two, hour-long obituary programmes on Ewan a couple of years ago which featured Ewan in teaching mode - it gives some idea of how he did things - happy to send copies of those to whoever wants them
There were several offshoots of The Critics Group down the years; I ran one in Manchester in the sixties before I moved to London, there was a long running one in Birmingham which eventually evolved into Banner Theatre, several dotted around England and Scotland....
When the Critics broke up, London Singers Workshop evolved and ran for fifteen years
These workshops are easy to set up and extremely effective - it only takes half-a dozen (or less) like-minded people who are prepared to work on each others singing in an analytical and friendly way
Let me know
Best
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 02:57 AM

Nice one Al. When people use your music it certainly does become theirs. Over the years I've introduced songs from The Radio Ballads to new audiences by turning them towards different genres to that they were written in. Rock, mainly. Whether the old curmudgeon would have approved is another matter...

I suppose in the '60s with Wilson in government and universal suffrage, UK "folk" songwriters didn't see "freedom" in the same aspirational sense as those involved in the US civil rights movement. Dylan's prose was more abstract to UK listeners whilst those listening to MacColl could identify with more of his songs.

But to compare? I doubt I'd compare baroque with opera or compare Ballads with instrumental songs but judging by the thread title, some people obviously do. The thread degenerates into comparing based on your own tastes which can be silly. It also becomes a platform for Jim Carroll to dismiss anything to do with MacColl that he didn't know about. A regular feature on Mudcat.

(A bit of an aside; I was once asked to arrange a local operatics group performing light opera. As well as a medley of Gilbert and Sullivan, Benjamin Britten etc, I included MacColl & Seeger's "Cabin Boy" (from Singing The Fishing.). Musically within the same genre.)

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Mathew
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 10:47 PM

Jim Carroll,

As someone who admires Maccoll and read his autobiography, I have always wanted to attend one of his singing workshops/sessions.

Are these perhaps what you have personal recordings of? If possible, would you be able to share? The vocal techniques/exorcises sound incredibly interesting and valuable.


I would be more than grateful if you would share.

Cheers mate.

Mathew

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 02:26 PM

well i don't think the prs were counting down in Alabama when the civil rights were using Dylan, Seeger and Carawan's anthems to sustain them.

it wasn't all about money. similarly when the kids in Soweto were chanting Pink Floyd's WE don't Need NO EDucation.

I admire MacColl and the work you have done for trad. song. But when the people use your music - it becomes rheir music. if you're lucky - some money comes your way - but its not why all of us are writing songs.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 12:54 PM

THe answer turned out to be 'Blowin' in the Wind' - mention "freedom", and you had a hit on your hands.
yes, another example is Donovans "colours""freedom is a word i dont often use" but when i did i got a hit.
Donovan is in my opinion a more likeable character, but its the same old ding dong

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 11:23 AM

" I am sure. I can find no reference to it anywhere."
There was an interesting article in the Irish Times on it some years ago - I thought I'd saved it.
"So it seems that Dylan never actually refused to go,"
His manager did it on his behalf, but he had been approached personally by Pete Seeger and others to join them and he made the same excuse.
"totally ridiculous to grub through the minutiae of one's life "
I'm not doing that Al
I neither like nor dislike Dylan - though I tried very hard to like his music when some of my mates extolled his virtues
I gave up after a couple of goes.
I was actually responding to Ake's claim about the old socialists and why I believe it to be inaccurate
The sixties was a time when the music industry believed there to be some profit to be gained out of protest - as long as it didn't frighten the horses.
THe answer turned out to be 'Blowin' in the Wind' - mention "freedom", and you had a hit on your hands
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 10:25 AM

totally ridiculous to grub through the minutiae of one's life to rationalise your reasons for disliking someone.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 09:47 AM

Thank you.. I have now read two versions of this story, neither of which jibes with Jims telling of it. What I have read says that Bikel approached Albert Grossman and suggested that Dylan go to Mississippi. Grossman replied that Dylan could not afford it so Bikel wrote a cheque to cover Dylans costs. So it seems that Dylan never actually refused to go, it was Bikel and Grossman who arranged it without telling Dylan the source of the money. Am I correct in this ?

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 09:30 AM

Google "dylan bikel ticket" and you'll find it. Including a listing on a collectibles site for Bikel's own copy of Dylan's first album... unplayed, whatever statement that makes.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 09:20 AM

The Bob Dylan / Theo Bikel has been told by you dozens of times, I am sure. I can find no reference to it anywhere. What is the source for this information?

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 08:02 AM

Dylan was never the darling of the old socialists - his milk and water politics never caught on with them.
When Dylan was asked to take part in the Civil Rights protests in the South, he refused, giving the excuse that he couldn't afford the fare
He was eventually shamed into showing his hace by actor/singer, Theodor Bilkel, who presented him with a ticket.
Dylan became very much accepted by the 'revolution without commitment", 'flowers in your hair' mob.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 06:14 PM

It's quite simple really the old socialist folkies thought Dylan was the Messiah and he turned out to be just a very naughty boy.

They felt let down that their ideology had not been personified in a hugely popular celebrity.....He took their toys away. :0(

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 11:12 AM

"Arguable, MacColl was a bigger influence on Luke Kelly, Luke Kelly and the Dubliners"
Far from it
Ewan warned Luke about stripping out his voice back in the early sixties and nobody could possibly suggest that Luke took anything from Ewan's singing.
Interestingly, they remained friends to the end, falling out only when Ewan objected to Luke's attempts to copyright traditional songs he had learned in the English revival (from MacColl, among others)
I was present at The Singers Club when the Dubliners turned up at the end of the evening
Ewan and Luke greeted each other like long-lost lovers
"you're a bit of a stamper yourself ,Jim.."
Not really Al - I picked up Ewan's love for traditional song as 'The Voice of the People', which give it a significance far beyond putting bums on seats to entertain
I write about it, and lecture on it so I feel it necessary to stress that significance.
Charles Parker coined the phrase 'The tyranny of the nice guy" and went to great lengths to describe the damage it has done to the music that is our voice - another thing that stuck with me.
Charlie was full of such sayings; I particularly like, "a well-sung love song is a fist in the face of the establishment"
Brrrrrr - still gives me a tingle
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 10:41 AM

"Bob Dylan was simply a much greater influence."
Arguable, MacColl was a bigger influence on Luke Kelly, Luke Kelly and the Dubliners , Influenced and stil influence irish music today

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 10:20 AM

you're a bit of a stamper yourself ,Jim...

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 04:46 AM

"well, every single folk club organiser I ever met."
Running clubs is not helping individual membrs develop
In fact, very few ran workshops to help develop new singers - the Critics Group was the first
It is often forgotten by the MacCollophobes, that Ewan and Peggy put their home, their library and recordings, their skills and their knowledge at the disposal of less skilled and experienced singers who were prepared to accept help and put in the work, on a weekly basis for nearly ten years - all while MacColl's loudest knockers were getting on with their own careers.
Who "got the ball rolling" is indisputable and whether it would have happened is one of t=he great unknowns.
The BBC did much to introduce Britain to its heritage, but lost interest after a few programmes.
It took a handful of dedicated people to take the initiative - MacColl and Lloyd headed that 'little band of brothers" and both were still at at until their deaths - no selling out to fame and fortune, no losing sight of the music and its importance, no trying to please all of the people all of the time - just sheer dedication
Would there were a few more around to replace them
Nowadays, it has become a dangerous thing to even raise the question 'what is folk-song' without getting stamped into the ground by folk police accusing you of being "folk police"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 04:45 AM

that's a non sequitur...

just because you can't verify something , it doesn't mean a proposition is meaningless.

in fact - we used to learn by rote Avogadro's Hypothesis. the whole idea of a hypothesis is that you are advancing an argument that you can't totally verify.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 04:01 AM

"I cannot think of many who gave up their time for nothing, to try and help others,"

............. well, every single folk club organiser I ever met.

yes, but none of them would be doing it,if it had not been for MacColl and Lloyd and their buddies, gtting the ball rolling.

A statement [ the reply ] which is impossible to verify and therefore totally meaningless.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 12:18 AM

I know at the time of my maximum interest in MacColl, it seemed very difficult to get hold of his published literary and dramatic work.
Scary how time passes - I realise now that was about forty years ago.
Has that changed at all Jim?

I remember writing to his publisher somewhere in Scotland. People wrote letters in those days! I got no reply.