Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?

Subject: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 09:39 AM

Does anyone know of any documentation or manuscript evidence for any of the "Child Ballads" in the 1700s in America? After having spent a good deal of time on looking at "The Demon Lover"/"The House Carpenter" (#243) in New England, we were not able to find any written documentation for the ballad in the Northeast prior to the Andrews/De Marsan broadside of 1858/1860. I am not aware of any written documentation for this ballad earlier than this for anywhere else in America. Here is the link for that discussion:

thread.cfm?threadid=141964&messages=153

In relation to some other research I am doing, I began to wonder about the rest of the ballads in the Child Collection. Can any of them be dated in America prior to the middle of the 1800's with any written documentation?

I realize that the commonly accepted theory for the presence of these "old ballads and love songs" in America is that for the most part they probably "came over" with the Scots-Irish, along with some of the English from certain parts of England and some from Scotland. About 200,000 Scots-Irish came to the Colonies - mostly to Philadelphia - between 1710 and 1775. Following the American Revolution, from 1783-1812, another 100,000 Scots-Irish came to America, and another half-million came between 1815 and 1845. The question is, can we document the arrival of these ballads with that first wave of immigrants, or with the second wave, or did they in fact not get here until the third wave between 1815 and 1845?

Are there records of family traditions that document the earlier arrival of these ballads? I'm thinking of places like the Beech Mountain and Sodom Laurel communities in North Carolina.

Please understand that I am not saying that these ballads did not arrive before the middle of the 1800s. I'm just wondering if we can actually document that they did in any way. Bronson does a good job of giving the historical dates for the tunes that he has collected for these ballads. I haven't begun to look at all of this material, but a very casual glance suggests that his tunes either come from an earlier period in the British Isles, or from the second half of the 1800s in America. Is there anything in between in America?

If I have somehow missed this discussion on Mudcat, please point me in the proper direction and let's not rehash it. Thanks. J.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 11:00 AM

In the absence of actual documentation one is thrown back on conjecture. It is hard to conceive that the ballads did not come across in all waves even starting with the Pilgrim Fathers. Off hand I can't remember actual ballads but I'm sure I remember there being some of the Child ballads found in America that have died out long ago in oral tradition this side of the pond.

You might find it useful to look at 'A Pioneer Songster' edited by Harold W. Thompson. The book is an anthology of ballads from the Stevens-Douglass Ms of Western New York, 1841-56

It has versions of Child, 45, 84, 112, 268, 283, 285, 287, 289, not the most typical of Child Ballads, but Child Ballads nevertheless.

There will be other manuscript collections. I suggest you repeat your request to the scholars on the Indiana Ballad List.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 11:52 AM

There is a version of Child 112 at p80 in A Sailor's Songbag by George Carey. It is from the ms of an American POW at Forton Prison near portsmouth, England, and is dated 1778. Many of the ballads here are however from British broadsides and were written down while he was in the prison so may be from British sources, or perhaps in this case from one of his fellow American prisoners.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 01:32 PM

Steve, thanks for calling my attention to the song in A SAILOR'S SONGBAG by George Carey. I was just looking at that book a few days ago, but I didn't have this question in my head at the time. Carey doesn't venture an opinion on whether this is from oral or written tradition or whether it came from a fellow American prisoner or from an English source. However, it does suggest that this particular ballad, #112, "The Baffled Knight", was being sung in 1778. The version in the SONGBAG does look like a sung version.

If nothing else, this collection probably made its way back to America after the war, before the turn of the century, and would thus count as a documented version in America in the 1700s. I couldn't find an exact reference in Carey as to when Connor, the prisoner who collected these songs, returned to America. It just says that he was part of a prisoner exchange on June 14, 1779, and was taken to France.   

And thanks for your other suggestions as well, Steve. I notice that "The Baffled Knight" shows up in the PIONEER SONGSTER as "Katie Mora" (p. 9). Unfortunately, the Google Books excerpt does not give very much of the book, and the only information I could get on the dating was from the subtitle "Texts of the Stevens-Douglass Manuscript of Western New York, 1841-1856." I will add this to my library search list.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 01:44 PM

There is evidence in the early shape note hymnals, sometimes the tune associated with particular ballads can be found, sometimes the form of the hymn parallels that of a ballad and the association is clear. See the work of George Pullen Jackson and Don Yoder, especially George Pullen Jackson: White Spirituals in the Southern Uplands (New York, Dover Publications, 1965)where chapter 15 gives a list of such correspondences. However, the earliest of these hymn books is of about 1815 (though there are arguments for assuming that some were printed previously) - this is too late for the first wave of Scotch-Irish though the areas in which they circulated coincide mainly with those of greated S-I influence.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 02:11 PM

John, thanks for connection with the "White Spirituals". I will definitely take a look at this. I have always been curious about the relationship of the ballads to the religious songs.

I did find a complete version of THE PIONEER SONGSTER online here:

http://www.archive.org/stream/pioneersongstert00thom#page/n5/mode/2up

It looks like 1841 is the date for the earliest part of this manuscript, but of course if these songs were being copied down at that point they were around before then. However, I couldn't find much in the way of specifics as to which ones might have been earlier or what their dates might have been.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 02:42 PM

Another possible source is Flanders 'Ancient Ballads Traditionally sung in New England' I have a vague recollection that some of the texts come from manuscripts.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 03:11 PM

John,
It also occurs to me that Richie might be able to assist you. Take a look at his website. I'm sure he'll chip in at some point.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 04:36 PM

John, perhaps you have access to new information, but otherwise I'm very skeptical of the immigration figures you cite.

Some years ago, I came across what I believe was the original research "establishing" the immigration patterns of the Scotch-Irish to the South. It was done around 1915, in the heyday of the belief that ethnicity was a powerful determinant of group and individual character. The Scotch-Irish were thought to be especially strong, vigorous, visionary, and ready for physical challenges: the ideal "race" to clear forests, fight Indians, and dream of westward expansion. It would have been satisfying to myany patriotic researchers to show that they had contributed disproportionately to the development of the United States.

However, American immigration records of the 17th, 18th, and early 19th centuries give few indications of cultural identity within the UK (English, Welsh, Irish, Scottish, Scotch-Irish). About all that can be recovered with any degree of reliability are personal names and ports of embarkation.

In an obvious effort to bulk up Scotch-Irish immigration to America, the investigator (I wish I could remember his name) counted all UK immigrants, regardless of port of embarkation, *who had Scotch-Irish surnames.* And he included, as Scotch-Irish, names known in Ulster that were *also* distributed elsewhere in the British Isles!

And voila! A preponderance of Scotch-Irish immigrants to tame the wild frontier!

The idea that the Scotch-Irish made up the great majority of early settlers in Appalachia is evidently a myth. The truth seems to be that they were the largest white, non-English minority.

Which isn't to say they didn't have Child ballads. But the earliest printed reference to one in America that I can recall seeing is "The Mermaid," from around 1850.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 05:56 PM

Hi Lighter, always good to hear from you. My information came from the Wikipedia. I very much appreciate your corrections on that. I have certainly come across some of what you are talking about in both old and quite recent accounts of the Scots-Irish. I am also aware that there were a lot of Germans coming into the Port of Philadelphia at the same time that the Scots-Irish were arriving. Since about WWI, their presence has been down-played somewhat in the development of the "upper South" and Southern Appalachian regions.

I'm just wondering if there is any print documentation for an early importation of the "Child" ballads. I approach this question with a good deal of skepticism. But maybe there are some family accounts out there, or smaller collections like the Western NY one mentioned above that have some early references. The question is have they been noticed by anyone enough to get into the discussion. I was amazed to find the "Sarah Willard" manuscript copy of "The House Carpenter" on the TAUNY (Traditional Adirondack Music) website, which is a handwritten copy of "The House Carpenter" dated April 18, 1869, and no discussion of it anywhere. Here is the link:

http://woods.tauny.org/images_start.php?gal=gallery/sub5/&img=48

Do you know if anyone has actually done a study on the early dating of these ballads in America?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 06:33 PM

Child Ballads as opposed to broadside ballads (I know a lot of the Child Ballads appeared on broadsides)should be easier to study and come up with some general conclusions, which is one reason why Richie's collection may prove valuable. What I'm proposing can only be useful in very general terms and can't be actual proof, but if multiple US versions of a ballad differ significantly from their British counterparts it shows they have been in oral tradition in America for a significant period of time. The more and varied the differences the longer they are likely to have been in oral tradition there. An extra factor that would need adding in is the interference of broadside and literary versions, and indeed forgeries. Literary and forged versions can easily and quickly slip into oral tradition. I base my theories on my studies of broadside ballads over a long period. Those, generally speaking, that vary the most are the earlier ones like The Gosport Tragedy. What must be factored in here of course is the influence of intermediate printed texts.

You mention Bronson. I can't imagine Bronson being any use here as of course he was only dealing with texts with tunes and as far as I know, prior to Sharp there weren't any American collections that gave tunes, although Child himself may have had some.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 07:38 PM

FWIW, Ron Byrnside wrote an entire book on "Music in Eighteenth Century Georgia" (U. Ga. Press, 1997), in which he could only assume that the early settlers sang ballads like "Barbara Allen." The contemporary references just weren't there.

This sort of thing makes me wonder. Could it be, Steve, that most of the American popularity of Child ballads came from some sort of latterly unnoticed "broadside/songster revival" from around 1830?

Just thinking out loud.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 07:43 PM

I researched the topic of the Scotch Irish, and the songs they might have carried and deposited in the Southern Mountains, exhaustively about 10 years ago and am to give a presentation on it in Atlanta at the end of next month (with some need to update my knowledge - and quickly!) I too have reservations about the emigration figures - they may be anything between 100,000 and 200,000 for the period 1715 - 1775, curiously, exhaustive research on entry from the north of Ireland through the Delaware ports shows considerably less activity than was previously argued. The most recent conspectus is probably Brian Lambkin and Patrick Fitzgerald <> (Palgrave MacMillan, 2008)- they summarise a considerable range of sources.

If you want to discuss this further, it might be best to go private since it could get quite academic. jmoul81075(at)aol.com - for (at) read @.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 07:49 PM

I'm sure Nathaniel Coverley and Deeming of Boston printed some of them. John might care to check out the Thompson Collection and those in the LoC. Some definitely appeared in those little dime songsters printed by the likes of Nafis. But then, as in Britain, there was a healthy interchange between cheap print and oral tradition.

Such an investigation would certainly enhance Richie's website.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 07:50 PM

John, even though Wiki cites a Harvard publication, you'll notice that what it says squares with what I wrote. The estimates are based on inferences from surnames rather than on direct evidence:

"The ancestry of the 3,929,326 million population in 1790 has been estimated by various sources by sampling last names in the 1790 census and assigning them a country of origin. According to the Harvard Encyclopedia of American Ethnic Groups (Thernstrom, S 1980, 'Irish,' p. 528), there were 400,000 Americans of Irish birth or ancestry in 1790; half of these were descended from Ulster, and half were descended from the other provinces of Ireland."

And how culturally significant is "Irish ancestry" - much less Scotch-Irish - when all there is to go on is a surname? If one parent is Irish and another English, Scottish, or Welsh, which category fits?

Wiki's source is dated 1980. I read about the sampling bias in the late '90s. Wish I could remember where. (Some big red book with lots of demographic articles. Maybe it'll come to me.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 07:52 AM

Wiki on 'Appalachia':

"An estimated 90% of Appalachia's earliest European settlers originated from the Anglo-Scottish border country— namely the English counties of Cumberland, Westmoreland, Northumberland, Durham, Lancashire, and Yorkshire, and the Lowland Scottish counties of Ayrshire, Dumfriesshire, Roxburghshire, Berwickshire, and Wigtownshire. Most of these were from families who had been resettled in the Ulster Plantation in northern Ireland in the 17th century."

Wiki's source is D. Newhall, Encyclopedia of Appalachia (Knoxville, Tenn.: University of Tennessee Press, 2006), pp. 253-255.

You might want to dispute that 90% figure, but what interests me is that the term 'Scotch-Irish' clearly includes many migrants with English ancestry, from 'Border' counties as far South as lancashire and Yorkshire.

Sharp's Appalachian collection is full of singers' names of apparently English origin, although - at first glance at least - many of the common ballads in it (Earl Brand, Young Hunting, House Carpenter etc.) seem to be ones with a more vigorous history in Scotland.

Talking of Earl Brand (and realising that some knowledgable people are participating here) can anyone expalin to me why the English versions of The Lady and the Dragoon are catalogued under that title (Roud 23, Child 7), whereas the American ones are not (Round 321)? I only noticed that a minute ago.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 12:40 PM

Most interesting, John and Brian. Perhaps it would be good to rename the "Scotch-Irish" and the "Ulster Scots" the "Anglo-Celts."

But I don't see it catching on.

Another point: even actual Ultonian immigrants could have been "Irish" for only a generation. Any Irish culture they might have absorbed in that time would have been quite minimal. (I'm inclined to believe that it would have been minimal for longer than that: the native Irish were not exactly held up as role models.)

And "ethnically" (i.e., "racially"), which is what much of the whole "Scotch-Irish" subject is about, the discussion is meaningless. The "Scotch-Irish" are at best a subculture of the broader English-speaking culture. They're obviously not a "race" in any non-poetic sense of the word. Even if they were, folk music is not carried by the genes.

As I've suggested, much of "Scotch-Irish" theory is based on nineteenth-century romanticism, which in the USA was an intellectual force well into the 1920s. (If you listen to the Republican candidates, you'll see that it's never gone away completely.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 01:14 PM

I am appreciating all of this good response and I'm seeing that the "Scots (Scotch)/Irish" business is complicated. Let me back up a bit. My primary interest is trying to establish whether or not there is any documentation for any of the so-called "Child" ballads in America in the 1700s. A secondary question would be "can they be documented prior to the American Revolution in America?" Or did they come after the Revolution was over? Can we document them prior to the 19th century?

I've been looking at one particular geographical area known for its ballad singers, documented by George Foss, and located along the eastern face of the Blue Ridge Mountains west of Charlottesville in Viriginia. Here is the link:

http://www.klein-shiflett.com/shifletfamily/HHI/GeorgeFoss/whall.html?

This is called "From White Hall to Bacon Hollow" and is a fascinating account of these folks, much of it in their own words. There is some genealogy material here in relation to ballad singing, but none of it really goes back before the 19th century.

John Moulden, I'd be very interested to know what kind of conclusions you were able to make in your research on "the Scotch Irish, and the songs they might have carried and deposited in the Southern Mountains".

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 05:42 PM

John
I see your dilemma and wish you luck in finding evidence. If that evidence is not forthcoming you might want to fall back on probabilities. If we are to believe the collectors and Child, c1800 the ballads were very much alive in Scotland at that time, even allowing for a substantial percentage of forgeries and literary interference. It is therefore extremely likely that any waves of migrants from Scotland and N Ireland/Sc would have a store of ballads in their heads, and using the old 'Scots abroad' maxim they would have been very keen to keep these artefacts alive.

Brian,
I have posted on Mudcat before my feelings on Earl Brand and the Bold Dragoon. They simply have a couple of lines in common and no other relationship. The desire to connect the two, somewhat ironically in light of what you say, was due to American collectors in the first half of the 20th century being desirous of including Child ballads in their collections and grasping at straws. I have mentioned this to Steve and I can't remember what he did about it. I have an up-to-date Access spreadsheet of the Index but unfortunately haven't currently got Access on my new computer. I'll be seeing Steve tomorrow night when he gets his EFDSS Gold Badge and will ask him to check. Certainly The Bold Dragoon and Earl Brand should have separate numbers.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 05:44 PM

John Minear, Please email me for my conclusions - address above

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 06:02 PM

John Minear,
Another approach would be to look at a collection such as Sharp/Campbell, selecting examples of ballads that have distict Scottish and English variants back in England. This could easily be done using Child. Then look at how distinct American versions have evolved and in this way draw up some conclusions as to how long they have likely been in oral tradition in these distinct forms. It could then be followed up by selecting versions of the same ballads in other American collections like Flanders. It wouldn't necessarily give any concrete proof but would possibly make good circumstantial evidence. Try, for instance The Cruel Mother, a ballad that seemingly originated on a London broadside but evolved into distinct versions in England, Scotland and Ireland.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 06:50 PM

Brian
All of the 'Bold Dragoons' should be under 321. How old is your version of Roud? I'll check the online version. If there aren't a lot in the wrong number it would be helpful to list them using the S numbers.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 10:22 PM

Re: taking this discussion private, I'll be very happy if you keep it going here. I'm sure there are others who, like me, enjoy following this kind of thread even if we can't add to it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 04:09 AM

Brian
I've had a quick flick through online and yes there are about half a dozen versions out of 223 that have slipped through the net. I'll tell Steve tonight.

The Roud Index, as you know, is a work in progress, and we would appreciate it if anyone comes across an error to either contact Steve or myself as soon as poss and we'll investigate and correct.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 04:10 AM

Brian
I should of course add thanks for pointing this out.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 07:11 AM

Hi,

There are several versions I've come across that go back to the 1700s if you assume the informant's information is correct- ie they learned it from their gramdmother who learned it from her mother. The dates of the ancestors can be traced through geneology records.

Finding written (published or printed) documentation is tough.

Check out Gale Huntington, Songs the Whalemen Sang (1964). I know The Turkish Lady, (an offshoot of Young Beichan/Lord Bateman) was known in 1768, when it was transcribed into the journal of the whaling ship Two Brothers.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Richie
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 07:16 AM

By the way Steve I've found some corrections for the Roud Index; can't remember them all now.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 07:17 AM

Here is one of those rather large questions. Without reading all of the fine print, does somebody already know how many of the "Child" ballads are actually documented by/in Child himself as having been around in the 1800s? In taking a very casual and brief look at Richie's site last night, I kept coming up with dates in the 19th century. If I had a quick and easy list of those ballads that we know were documented in England, Scotland or Ireland in the 1700s, we could at least narrow down the list for what to look for over here in America.

This is not to say that it's not possible for an "earlier" version of a ballad to have survived in the "oral tradition" and gotten over to America before it showed up in print in England, etc. That would be an interesting find!

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 07:37 AM

John - have a look at Greg Lindahl's Child Ballads page, where he lists the Child ballads with early sources.

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 08:51 AM

"I've had a quick flick through online and yes there are about half a dozen versions out of 223 that have slipped through the net."

Happy to be of service. The Roud index is such a monumental undertaking that the only way the glitches are going to be discovered is when a researcher is looking at the fine detail.

The reason I was looking at 'Earl Brand' in detail was to follow the line of research suggested by Steve G, "to look at a collection such as Sharp/Campbell, selecting examples of ballads that have distict Scottish and English variants back in England."

If we exclude 'The Dragoon and the Lady' (and I quite agree that we should), that leaves only two copies from England: the White/Bell one from Northumberland (Child 7A - there are several alternative texts but it's basically the same piece) and the fragment from Percy (Child 7F). Neither of these seem to have any siginificant material in common with the various North American texts listed in Bronson (which of course includes Campbell and Sharp).

By contrast, there is plenty of of overlap between the American copies and the various Scots 'Douglas Tragedy' versions from Scott, Motherwell, Greig-Duncan, etc. The key lines in common (allowing for minor variation) are:

'Rise [wake] up you seven brothers [sleepers]'
(the following '...and put on your armour so bright' survives only occasionally).

'Light down, light down, lady Margaret he said
And hold my steed in your hand [for a while]
While I go and fight your seven brothers
And your father I make a stand [standing nigh, etc]'

'Hold your hand Lord William, she said
For your strokes are wondrous sore
True lovers i can get many a one
But a father I'll never get more'

'He's mounted her on a milk-white steed
Himself on a dapple grey
With a bugle [buckler] hanging by his side
And slowly [bleeding] they [he] rode away'

There are also verses in which she has to choose between family and lover, and in which she mops her father's blood, that keep cropping up on both sides of the ocean. The few versions from the Canadian Maritimes seem to be closer to the Scots than are the Appalachian versions. There's also a little clutch of Appalachian variants in which new details are added - Margaret's father's head falls at her feet in the battle, and a formulaic verse about the cock / chickens crowing (to establish a timeframe) is sometimes added. It would be neat to report that these versions all came from the Alleghany Mountains area around Allenstand, White Rock and Hot Springs (where Sharp and Karpeles began their collecting), but unfortunately there's a rogue variant collected by Olive Campbell in Georgia that has both elements.

I would conclude from the above that 'Earl Brand' almost certainly arrived in North America from Scotland, but that it was subject to subsequent oral veriation (the names get changed and so forth). Whether the father's rolling head and the crowing chickens suggest interpolations in a printed copy is something we can speculate about!

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 09:17 AM

Richie, thanks for the Huntington reference. I really appreciate the huge job of fine work that you are doing gathering up all of this information. Anything else you come across from the 1700's would be welcome.

Mick, thanks for the reference to Lindahl. That looks very helpful. And I am interested in the tunes!

And Brian, thanks for the discussion on "Earl Brand". It occurs to me, without having looked at the specifics in Sharp's collection, that North Georgia is not so very far away from Madison County NC, [about a three week hike on the Appalachian Trail] and that sometimes there were family migrations that took place. For instance, Sam Harmon, who settled in Cades Cove, Tennessee, near Maryville, came from Beech Mountain, NC, and his music is definitely connected to the Beech Mountain history [see the work of Frank & Ann Warner, and Sandy Paton]. The same is true of Jane Gentry in Hot Springs, NC, who was also from the Beech Mountain area and was related to Sam Harmon. Long ago, I had some discussion of this on the "Wild Boar" thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=50640

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 09:55 AM

You might also look at Coffin: British Traditional Ballads in North America, where he discusses the main variants of the ballads found in America.

I did a quick skim through the other day, but as far as I can see there's nothing about early US printed sources. (Though under The Hunting of the Cheviot he does give an anecdote that refers to a publication of 1788 where a boy mentions the name Chevy Chase as some soldiers are riding through to the tune of Yankee Doodle: The history of the rise, progress, and establishment of the United States of America - Gordon, 1788, p481).

It's also possible, from something I read in Coffin, that Barry British Ballads from Maine might have something to say on early versions in the US. But I'm not clear enough and I don't have a copy. (Richie's site has info on Barry and some articles I think).

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 08:22 AM

Mick, thanks for the "Chevy Chase" reference. Is it possible that this reference is to a fiddle or fife tune instead of the ballad?

Also, everyone, what is the latest and most comprehensive listing of all of the different "Child" ballads that have been found in North America? Does someone have this handy?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Richie
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 08:49 AM

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Richie
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 09:00 AM

Here's the lastest list from 1950 by Coffin: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/a-critical-biographical-study.aspx

I haven't finished proofing this page yet. There are a couple missing, for example 52. King's Dochter Lady Jean

The only known traditional US version of this ballad titled "Queen Jane" was sung by Sara Cleveland. It was recorded by Sandy Patton in the early 1960s.

I think published an updated edition later. Reed Smith did some early lists.

I've only made it to No. 63. It seems that most of the ballads so far date back to the 1700's in Scotland/England.

The most likely sources of 1700s Child ballads in the US would seem to be old periodicals, newspapers, diaries, and family histories. New bits of information will pop up from time to time- you have to realize that ballad scholars and those interested in ballads have been looking for this information already- and it seems to be lacking.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 09:19 AM

John

Since the boy in the story was listening to them ride by I presume it was the tune he recognised. It was used for other songs but at least he recognised it by the Chevy Chase title.


I had a quick look for a current list of Child Ballads found in America without success (though you'd imagine someone had made one; perhaps someone on the ballad list is keeping track). You could start with Coffin - he goes through them and (as far as I remember) lists the ones not found at the time (1950). You could start from there and try and see if any of the missing ones had been found since. (eg Child Ballads in Max Hunter. These were collected between 56 and 76 so could have found some missing in Coffin).

(You can find a copy of Coffin at archive.org: The British Traditional Ballad in North America).


Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 12:22 PM

Richie, thanks for the update on your work, and for Coffin's list (actually Coffin's discussion as well!). And thanks for the suggestions on where to look.

And Mick, thanks for reminding me about the Max Hunter collection. I have Coffin in several varieties and recognize him as a baseline for the middle of the last century (can you believe that! - it used to be that "the middle of the last century" referred to 1850 and not 1950!). I was hoping for an update. I think Bronson would at least update the list through the 1960's but that still leaves us in the middle of the last century.

I can start by comparing Coffin and Lindahl. Let me say, that I am not particular about whether or not a particular ballad "came over with the Scots-Irish" or with somebody else. In our discussion of "The Demon Lover"/"The House Carpenter" in the Northeast, we came across some suggestions about Scottish (not "Scots-Irish") influence on this ballad in North America, possibly prior to the broadside publication in 1858-60 by De Marsan. The suggestion was that it might have come over with the Scottish tobacco traders to the coastal ports and then later to the more inland tobacco trading posts.

In any case, I don't care how a ballad got here or who brought it. I'm just interested at this point in what might have been here before 1800, and especially before 1775 and the American Revolution.   Of course any specific additional information is always welcome.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 01:14 PM

There are also some American versions in the online Lomax collection: Lomax - Child Ballads (though many are from the UK).


I also did a quick search on the Roud index for Place:USA and Other Number:Child. It returned 8414 entries. This was using the online copy at VWML. If you give me a bit of time, I'll try and run a better search on my own copy (it's not been updated recently, so there probably won't be as many entries), and I should be able to get some idea of the count for each and maybe first and last dates available in the index.


Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 04:35 PM

I've done a quick search on my copy of the Roud database. I've got 483 entries from the USA with a given date > 1950. The latest in my copy is 1986. As we've noted before, this probably includes duplicate entries. If you'd like a list I can probably make one (though not today!). As I mentioned above, my copy of the index is about 10 years old, so there may well be later entries. (It would be nice if the online VWML copy allowed date range searches rather than a single value. I did try putting in >1950, but got 1950 entries; Derek if you're reading, there's a suggestion!).


As far as the earliest sources, my copy yielded the following:

The earliest is 1790c - Chevy Chase, and is tune only, Bronson 10th tune for it.

The next is 1795 and is one of the 3 songs from the log of the Joseph Francis from Huntington - The Knight and the Shepherd's Daughter.

After that you're up to 1823.


Btw, the Roud index doesn't classify the 1768 Turkish Lady (also from Huntington, mentioned above by Richie) as a Child ballad.


Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 06:11 PM

Mick, thanks very much for that research. So, can anybody add anymore documented "Child' ballads found in America before 1800?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 05:08 PM

John, Richie,
3rd time I've made this suggestion but the people best placed to answer your queries are on the Indiana Ballad List. They've been studying these things for a long time and have access to a lot more than we have on this side of the pond.

Brian, I saw Steve on Thursday and he has corrected the online site regarding the misplaced 'Lady and Dragoons' now. He sends his thanks.

Richie, if you find any errors please PM me with them and I'll pass them on, or of course contact Steve direct. He would be glad to correct any errors.

I've now got a working scanner so let me know if you want any Flanders versions.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 11:15 AM

Steve, I appreciate your suggestion that the Indiana Ballad List serve might be able to help answer some of these questions. I have not followed up on this yet for several reasons. I think I assumed, perhaps falsely, that the information I was looking for here was straightforward and probably fairly common knowledge by now, at least in those circles which have continued to have serious interest in the "Child" ballads. And I suppose that I have been spoiled by all of the wonderful access to obscure information now being provided on the internet by things like Google and Google Books. So, I did not really expect this to be a complicated query. And, I know from past experience that there are certainly folks on Mudcat that are familiar in some depth with these kinds of concerns. I prefer to explore these issues in this somewhat more accessible venue with a broader base than what one finds on an academic list service. I should say that I am not an academic and that I make no claims to being any kind of scholar when it comes to ballads. And I would also say that while I've never joined the ballad list service, I have listened in on this discussion occasionally and I have not always been excited by the results of academic conversations. I would also assume that there are folks here on Mudcat who also are a part of the Indiana Ballad List, and that if they happened to see this thread and were aware of useful information from that other venue, they would have perhaps made that available here.

But maybe my assumptions are not very accurate. I do know that there are people on Mudcat that can address these kinds of questions as well as anybody anywhere else can. Whether or not they have noticed this thread or are interested in participating in this discussion is another matter.

I have basically asked three questions so far, which I would assume are basic to any study of the so-called "Child" ballads in America:

1. Can any of these ballads be documented as being present in America in the 18th century (1700s), and especially can any of them be documented as being here in America prior to 1775 and the beginning of the American Revolution?

2. Which of the Child ballads have been documented in the Child Collection itself as having been around in England, Scotland and/or Ireland in the 1700s?

3. And, what is the "latest" available tally on Child Ballads that have been found in America, other than contemporary "covers" that have been recorded of these songs? Is there anything more recent than Coffin's study and it's update?

I had assumed that there would be obvious listings for these latter two questions and that someone would surely have conveniently published them online somewhere and they would be easily accessible. I am still hoping that this is the case. I don't want to have to, and I am certainly not expecting anyone else to, go through the Child Canon and read the fine print and pull out all of the examples of ballads collected in the 1700s. That's a lot of work and I had assumed that it had already been done. If not, why not? Is that time frame not an important one?

And I am fairly certain that there must be updated lists of all known Child ballads found in America. I may even have them in my own printed files. I was being internet lazy on this one and hoping someone could more or less instantly produce such a list. I know there have been some regional studies, but are there recent studies that include all of North America in a more comprehensive assessment? Have there been any significant discoveries of additional ballads in the last fifty years? And have there been significant critical revisions of earlier discoveries, such as any number of those examples that show up in the John Jacob Niles' collection?

Maybe no one has actually tabulated the documentation for the existence of these ballads in 18th century America. Again, if not, why not? Is this not important information? Once again, I know that just because there is no written evidence that this does not conclusively prove that something didn't exist. But I also know that we can't get anywhere these days in a discussion of this material without some kind of written documentation. We can make general assumptions that probably should and maybe do hold true, but when we build arguments on this basis we float off into thin air fairly quickly. For now, if I can't actually document the presence of a particular ballad in North America in the 1700's before the American Revolution from the historical literature, I am going to have to assume that it probably, for all practical purposes, simply was not here.

I really don't want to get into all of the very difficult debates about "oral" and "written" traditions. I am aware of how complicated this discussion is in a number of different areas and disciplines. I would be happy with some written and datable documentation of anecdotal family or community oral traditions. But at some point, even this needs to be written down. I don't have the capacity to go and personally interview survivors of such oral traditions. And when I have had the opportunity to talk to such folks, I find that I am on fairly thin ice almost immediately. Oral traditions seem to remain "oral" for reasons of political, religious or personal control. To keep something exclusively oral today is perhaps to do so for exclusionary purposes. You see, how murky this gets almost immediately when I try to discuss it at all. I am not proposing discussions in this direction. I'm simply looking for some straightforward historical, factual data, on what's available at this point.

It may also be the case that I don't know how to conduct data searches on existing websites where this kind of information might be found. I have checked out all of the websites suggested but have not found a way to gather the data other than one bit at a time. I would welcome suggestions here.

If these things that I have inquired about above are not readily at hand, that's good to know, and at some point the work will yet be done. I'm not going to have the time to do that work myself at this point, nor am I asking anyone else to do it. I will continue to wonder why it hasn't been done by now.

And if not on Mudcat, why not?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 12:13 PM

I wanted to add say that I found the lists by Lindahl very helpful for pre-18th century ballads in the Child Collection, and also the article by Dani Zweig on "Early Child Ballads". Here is Lindahl's information as posted above by Mick Pearce:

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ballads/child.html

As well as Lindahl's "Sixteenth Century Ballads: A work in progress" :

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ballads/

And here is the article by Dani Zweig, with some very helpful information about Child ballads in the 18th century:

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ballads/early_child/#partii

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 12:20 PM

Even in academia, few people know anything about more than the handful of "classic" Child ballads.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 01:37 PM

And they don't know much about them either. It's a very narrow and specialized field.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 05:39 PM

You're absolutely right, Jonathan, but the academics are more likely to know what is available than the rest of us. I'm no academic, but I've been made very welcome on the Indiana List, which is why I've suggested it. Not everyone on the list is a folk academic.

I'm sure Brian will tell you there are very few academic and non-academic people in Britain with even a rough working knowledge of the Child Ballads. Off the top of my head the only institution in Britain I can think of that has academics attached who are involved in Child Ballad research is The Elphinstone Institute at Aberdeen University. Yes, there are a few other solitary academics out there but they are few and far between. There are I would say, as one would expect, many more in America, and possibly even more on the Continent.

Thanks for the links, John. I share your interest in early versions. Most of the Child Ballads were around before 1800, at least on broadsides if not in manuscript collections. Those that weren't are generally around the later numbers 241 onwards and Child knew that many of these were of dubious lineage/origin.

The answer to 2 can be largely gleaned from Child's ESPB itself.

And 3 is currently being worked on by the OP of this thread.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 07:01 PM

Steve, I wasn't criticizing academics - merely emphasizing how hard it is to find comprehensive knowledge of the subject of Child ballads.

When I started college back in the Neolithic, it seemed as though the study of English-language folklore and folksong was becoming an notable field in the liberal arts.

Since then, academic interest appears to have declined sharply, though obviously it hasn't disappeared entirely, at least in the U.S.   (The songs and lore of other cultures is much more actively studied, as always, but under the heading of anthropology.)

Have you noticed how few people, academics included, actually post to the Ballad Forum List? Undoubtedly there are many more lurkers, and some of the leading experts are probably too busy to post, but the fact seems to be that ballad knowledge generally is surprisingly rare.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 04:22 PM

Jonathan,
I know you weren't criticising academics, and I didn't mean to imply that you were. I don't know any of the American posters on Ballad List personally so I'm not fully aware who is and who isn't an academic there, although going by the depth of knowledge I presume most of them are.

In the last 50 years this side of the pond we have had university departments that majored on folk material, but Child Ballads have not really featured in these. As I said the only one I can think of currently entertaining anyone with Child Ballad knowledge is Aberdeen, and even then it's mainly academics like Tom McKean, Emily Lyle, David Atkinson and Julia Bishop working in association on such as publishing and the Carpenter Collection.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 08:13 PM

Going back to Child, himself, here is what I have found from the 18th century in Volume 1:


RIDDLES WISELY EXPOUNDED—A
d. Pills to Purge Melancholy, iv, 130, ed. 1719.

THE ELFIN KNIGHT—A
A broadside in black letter, "printed, I suppose," says Pinkerton, "about 1670," bound up with five other pieces at the end of a copy of Blind Harry's 'Wallace,' Edin. 1673, in the Pepysian Library.

WILLIE'S LADY—A
a. A copy, by Miss Mary Fraser Tytler, of a transcript made by her grandfather from William Tytler's manuscript. b. Jamieson-Brown MS., No 15, fol. 33. [from Mrs Brown in 1783]

ERLINTON—C
Gutch's Robin Hood, ii, 345, from a MS. of Mr. Payne Collier's, supposed to have been written about 1650.

THE FAIR FLOWER OF NORTHUMBERLAND—A
a. Deloney's Pleasant History of John Winchcomb, 9th ed., London, 1633, reprinted by Halliwell, p. 61. b. Ritson's Ancient Songs, 1790, p. 169.

THE TWA SISTERS—A
A. a. Broadside "printed for Francis Grove, 1656," reprinted in Notes and Queries, 1st S., v, 591. b. Wit Restor'd, 1658, "p. 51," p. 153 of the reprint of 1817. c. Wit and Drollery, ed. 1682, p. 87, = Dryden's Miscellany, Part 3, p. 316, ed. 1716. d. Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 315.
THE TWA SISTERS—B
a. Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 39. b. Wm. Tytler's Brown MS., No 15. c. Abbotsford MS., "Scottish Songs," fol. 21. d. Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 48. [Brown 1783]
THE TWA SISTERS-Y
Communicated to Percy, april 7, 1770, and April 19, 1775, by the Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, near Ashford, Kent: "taken down from the mouth of the spinning-wheel, if I may be allowed the expression."

THE CRUEL BROTHER—G
a. Herd's MSS, i, 41. b. Herd's Scottish Songs, 1776, i, 88.

LORD RANDAL—A
From a small manuscript volume lent me by Mr William Macmath, of Edinburgh, containing four pieces written in or about 1710, and this ballad in a later hand. Charles Mackie, August, 1808, is scratched upon the binding.
LORD RANDALL-S
Communicated to Percy by Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, near Ashford, Kent, April 19, 1775; taken down by a friend of Mr Parsons "from the spinning-wheel, in Suffolk."

EDWARD—B
Percy's Reliques, 1765, i, 53. Communicated by Sir David Dalrymple.

BABYLON; OR, THE BONNIE BANKS O FORDIE—B
Herd's MSS, i, 38, ii, 76. b. The Scots Magazine, Oct., 1803, p. 699, communicated by Jamieson, and evidently from Herd's copy. [Child: "B a is from tradition of the latter half of the eighteenth century; the other copies from the earlier part of this."]

SIR LIONEL—A
Percy MS., p. 32, Hales and Furnivall, i, 75. [1765, 1794]

THE CRUEL MOTHER—A
Herd's MSS, i, 132, ii, 191: Ancient and Modern Scottish Songs, 1776, ii, 237.
THE CRUEL MOTHER—B
Johnson's Museum, p. 331. b. Scott's Minstrelsy, 1803, iii, 259, preface. [Child: "Two fragments of this ballad, A, B, were printed in the last quarter of the eighteenth century;..."]

THE MAID AND THE PALMER—A
Percy MS., p. 461. Furnivall, iv, 96.

ST. STEPHEN AND HEROD
Sloane MS., 2593, fol. 22 b, British Museum. [15th century] Child says: Ritson gave the piece as 'A Carol for St Stephen's Day,' in Ancient Songs, 1790, p. 83,..."

JUDAS
MS. B. 14, 39, of the thirteenth century, library of Trinity College, Cambridge, as printed in Wright & Halliwell's Reliquiæ Antiquæ, i, 144.

THE THREE RAVENS
a. Melismata. Musicall Phansies. Fitting the Court, Cittie, and Countrey Humours. London, 1611, No 22. [T. Ravenscroft.] Child says: "printed by Ritson, in his Ancient Songs, 1790,...."

BURD ELLEN AND YOUNG TAMLANE
Maidment's North Countrie Garland, 1824, p. 21. Communicated by R. Pitcairn, "from the recitation of a female relative, who had heard it frequently sung in her childhood," about sixty years before the above date. [1764]

THE BOY AND THE MANTLE
Percy MS., p. 284: Hales and Furnivall, II, 304.

KING ARTHUR AND KING CORNWALL
Percy MS., p. 24. Hales and Furnivall, I, 61; Madden's Syr Gawayne, p. 275.

THE MARRIAGE OF SIR GAWAIN
Percy MS., p. 46. Hales & Furnivall, I, 105; Madden's Syr Gawayne, p. 288; Percy's Reliques, ed. 1794, III, 350.

KING HENRY
The Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 31. b. Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, 1802, II, 132.

KEMP OWYNE—B
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 29. b. Scott's Minstrelsy, II, 93, 1802, from William Tytler's Brown MS., No 9, "with corrections from a recited fragment."

THE LAIDLEY WORM OF SPINDLESTON HEUGHS
A View of Northumberland, by W. Hutchinson, Anno 1776

ALLISON GROSS
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 40.

THOMAS RYMER—A
Alexander Fraser Tytler's Brown MS., No 1: Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 7.
THOMAS RYMER—C
Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, II, 251, ed. 1802. [Child says: "A is one of the nine ballads transmitted to Alexander Fraser Tytler by Mrs Brown in April, 1800, as written down from her recollection."]

THE WEE WEE MAN—A
Herd's MSS, I, 153, Herd's Ancient and Modern Scottish Songs, 1776, I, 95.

TAM LIN—A
Johnson's Museum, p. 423, [1792] No 411. Communicated by Robert Burns.
TAM LIN—B
Glenriddell's MSS, vol. xi, No 17. [1791]
TAM LIN—C
Herd, The Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 300.

CLERK COLVILL—A
From a transcript from William Tytler's Brown MS.
CLERK COLVILL—B
Herd's Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 302: ed. 1776, I, 161.

KING JOHN AND THE BISHOP—A
Percy MS., p. 184. Hales and Furnivall, I, 508.
KING JOHN AND THE BISHOP—B
Broadside, printed for P. Brooksby, at the Golden Ball in Pye-corner (1672-95).

CAPTAIN WEDDERBURN'S COURTSHIP—A
a. Herd's MS., I, 161. b. The same, II, 100.
CAPTAIN WEDDERBURN'S COURTSHIP—B
Kinloch MSS, I, 83, from Mary Barr's recitation. b. Lord Roslin's Daughter's Garland. c. Buchan's MSS, II, 34. d. Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 159. e. Harris MS., fol. 19 b, No 14, from Mrs Harris's recitation. f. Notes and Queries, 2d S., IV, 170, "as sung among the peasantry of the Mearns," 1857. [from Child: "Jamieson writes to the Scots Magazine, 1803, p. 701: " Of this ballad I have got one whle copy and part of another, and I remember a good deal of it as I have heard it sung in Morayshire when I was a child."]

? PROUD LADY MARGARET—A
Scott's Minstrelsy, III, 275, ed. 1803. Communicated "by Mr Hamilton, music-seller, Edinburgh, with whose mother it had been a favorite."

YOUNG ANDREW
Percy MS., p. 292. Hales and Furnivall, II, 328.

THE BONNY HIND
Herd's MSS, II, fol. 65. "Copied from the mouth of a milkmaid, by W. L, in 1771."

YOUNG BEICHAN—A
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 13. [Child says: "Mr. Macmath has ascertained that Mrs Brown was born in 1747. She learned most of her ballads before she was twelve years old, or before 1759. 1783, or a little earlier, is the date when these copies were taken down from her singing or recitation."]
YOUNG BEICHAN—B
Glenriddell MSS, XI, 80. [1791]
YOUNG BEICHAN—C
a. Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 11, [c. 1783] b. Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 127.

Please feel free to help me correct any mistakes that you might find.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 08:23 PM

The THE ELFIN KNIGHT—A, ERLINTON—C, THE TWA SISTERS—A, JUDAS, and KING JOHN AND THE BISHOP—B all come from an earlier period and are not actually attested to in the 18th century. They were around, but were they known or buried in a manuscript somewhere? Some of the earliest versions don't seem to have been actually "discovered" until the 19th century. I would choose not to count these five versions in the 18th century, which means that we don't have documentation for "The Elfin Knight" or "Judas" as actually being known in the 1700s.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 07:29 AM

"They were around, but were they known or buried in a manuscript somewhere?"

'The Twa Sisters' was in Anna Brown's repertoire, which gives us a 'sighting' in 1783. Given the subsequent popularity of the ballad, it would be remarkable if it had not been widespread in Scotland in the 18th century. Most of the North American variants, though, follow the 'Bow down' refrain pattern which I would associate more with England.

Re 'The Elfin Knight', does anyone (Steve?) know whether 'The Cambrick Shirt' appeared for the first time in the 1810 printing of 'Gammer Gurton's Garland' (as referenced by FJC), or the 1783 printing - as claimed in certain places on the web?

Bronson printed several 18th century tunes connected to 'The Elfin Knight' by the refrain 'My plaid awa', although he was cautious about making a definite connection bewteen these and Child 2.

I realise this is an obvious point but, since so few people were actually looking for ballads in the 18th century, it doesn't surprise to me that few were found in that period.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 12:26 PM

John
You should add in the 17thc broadside for No.20. which Child gave in a later vol. Are you working from the Loomis edition or the Dover or an earlier edition? If you're using Dover like me you should check the appendixes as well. It wouldn't take long.

There are lots of late 18thc garland versions of Captain Wedderburn's Courtship, mostly using the title 'Lord Roslin's Daughter' or similar.

I'm also pretty certain there are several printings of Young Beichan from the 18th century in garlands.

Brian,
I have access to a version of GGG but it's on a lengthy disc and may take some finding. I seem to remember there's at least one edition online, Goole Books or Gutenberg or one of the universities. I'll have a look anyway. The one I have access to is more likely to be the earlier edition.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 01:08 PM

Steve, I did find GGG online, but it was the 1810 edition.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 02:05 PM

Thanks for the corrections and suggestions, Brian & Steve. I'm working from the Dover addition at the moment. I had trouble using the online additions, so I'm back to my old paperback set. I am using the UVA site to print off the information that I am using. It is here:

http://xtf.lib.virginia.edu/xtf/view?docId=chadwyck_ep/uvaGenText/tei/chep_1.1504.xml;brand=default;

When I get through the whole business, I'll try to go back and clean some of this up with your suggestions. Thanks

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 02:14 PM

Here is the information from Vol. 2:

THE CHERRY-TREE CAROL—B
Husk, Songs of the Nativity, p. 59, from a Worcester broadside of the last century. b. Hone's Ancient Mysteries, p. 90, from various copies. c. Sylvester, A Garland of Christmas Carols, p. 45. d. Birmingham chap-book, of about 1843, in B. Harris Cowper's Apocryphal Gospels, p. xxxviii.

THE CARNAL AND THE CRANE
a. Sandys, Christmas Carols, p. 152, Christmastide, p. 246, from a broadside. b. Husk, Songs of the Nativity, p. 97, apparently from a Worcester broadside. c. Birmingham chap-book, of about 1843, in B. Harris Cowper's Apocryphal Gospels, p. xli. [Child says: "Mr Husk, who had access to a remarkably good collection of carols, afterwards unfortunately dispersed, had met with no copy of 'The Carnal and the Crane' of earlier date than the middle of the last century (1700)."]

DIVES AND LAZARUS—A
a. Sylvester, A Garland of Christmas Carols, p. 50, from an old Birmingham broadside. b. Husk, Songs of the Nativity, p. 94, from a Worcestershire broadside of the last century.

SIR PATRICK SPENS—A
a. Percy's Reliques, 1765, I, 71: "given from two MS. copies, transmitted from Scotland." b. Herd's Scots Songs, 1769, p. 243.
SIR PATRICK SPENS—B
Herd's MSS., II, 27, I, 49.
SIR PATRICK SPENS—H
Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, III, 64, ed. 1803; I, 299, ed. 1833; "taken from two MS. copies, collated with several verses recited by the editor's friend, Robert Hamilton, Esq., Advocate." [Child says: "...H, was made up from two versions, the better of which was G, and five stanzas, 16-20, recited by Mr Hamilton, sheriff of Lanarkshire. Mr Hamilton is said to have got his fragment "from an old nurse, a retainer of the Gilkerscleugh family," when himself a boy, about the middle of the last century."]

SIR ALDINGAR—A
Percy MS., p. 68; Hales and Furnivall, I, 166. [1775]
SIR ALDINGAR—B
Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, III, 51, 1803. Communicated to Scott by K. Williamson Burnet, of Monboddo, as written down from the recitation of an old woman, long in the service of the Arbuthnot family.

FAIR ANNIE—A
Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, II, 102, 1802, chiefly from the recitation of an old woman residing near Kirkhill, in West Lothian.
FAIR ANNIE—D
Herd, The Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 307.
FAIR ANNIE—E
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 20; Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 371. [1783]

CHILD WATERS—A
Percy MS., p. 274; Hales and Furnivall, II, 269.
CHILD WATERS—B
a. Jamieson's Brown MS., fol. 22, taken down from Mrs Brown's recitation before 1783. b. A. Fraser Tytler's Brown MS., No 9, as recited by Mrs Brown in 1800.
CHILD WATERS—E
Harris MS., No 8, fol. 12 b: originally from Jannie Scott, an old nurse in Perthshire, about 1790.

FAIR JANET—C
Herd's Scots Songs, 1769, p. 303: I, 162, ed. 1776.

LADY MAISRY—A
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 24.

LORD INGRAM AND CHIEL WYET—C
Herd's MSS, I, 169, II, 84. Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 265.

GLASGERION—A
Percy MS., p. 94; Hales and Furnivall, I, 248. [1765]

YOUNG HUNTING—A
a. Herd's MSS, I, 182; b. the same, II, 67.
YOUNG HUNTING—G
Herd's MSS, I, 34; Herd's Scottish Songs, 1776, I, 148.
YOUNG HUNTING—J
Scott's Minstrelsy, II, 42, 1802, and III, 184, 1833, from Herd's copies (A, G), and from tradition.

CLERK SAUNDERS—A
Herd's MSS, a, I, 177; b, II, 419.
CLERK SAUNDERS—B
Herd's MSS, a, I, 163; b, II, 46.

WILLIE AND LADY MAISRY—A
Motherwell's MS., p. 498; Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 370. From the recitation of Mrs Notman, then far advanced in years, with whose grandmother it was a favorite: September 9, 1826.

LORD THOMAS AND FAIR ANNET—A
Percy's Reliques, 1765, II, 293, "given, with some corrections, from a MS. copy transmitted from Scotland."
LORD THOMAS AND FAIR ANNET—D
Pepys Ballads, III, 316, No 312. b. A Collection of Old Ballads, I, 249, 1723. c. Ritson, Select Collection of English Songs, II, 187, 1783. d. Buchan's Gleanings, p. 86. e, f, g, h, i, recited copies.

FAIR MARGARET AND SWEET WILLIAM—A
Douce Ballads, I, fol. 72. b. Ritson, A Select Collection of English Songs, 1783, II, 190. c. Percy's Reliques, 1765, III, 121. d. Percy's Reliques, 1767, III, 119.
FAIR MARGARET AND SWEET WILLIAM—B
Communicated to Percy by the Dean of Derry, as written down from memory by his mother, Mrs Bernard; February, 1776.
FAIR MARGARET AND SWEET WILLIAM—C
Communicated to Percy by Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, April 7, 1770.

LORD LOVEL—A
Percy Papers, communicated by the Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, from singing; May 22, 1770, and April 19, 1775.

THE LASS OF ROCH ROYAL—A
Cochrane's Songbook, p. 151, No 114.

THE LASS OF ROCH ROYAL—B
Herd's MS, I, 144; II, 60, the first ten lines; Herd's Scottish Songs, 1776, I, 149.
THE LASS OF ROCH ROYAL—D
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 27; Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 36.
THE LASS OF ROCH ROYAL—E
a. Alexander Fraser Tytler's Brown MS., No 2, written down from Mrs Brown's recitation in 1800. b. Scott's Minstrelsy, II, 49, 1802.
THE LASS OF ROCH ROYAL—F
Herd MS., I, 31, II, 65.

SWEET WILLIAM'S GHOST—A
Ramsay's Tea Table Miscellany, "4th volume, 1740;" here from the London edition of 1763, p. 324.
SWEET WILLIAM'S GHOST—B
Herd's MSS, I, 177, II, 49, stanzas 27 ff.

THE WIFE OF USHER'S WELL—A
Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, II, 111, 1802, from the recitation of an old woman residing near Kirkhill, in West Lothian.

OLD ROBIN OF PORTINGALE
Percy MS., p. 90; Hales and Furnivall, I, 235.

LITTLE MUSGRAVE AND LADY BARNARD—A
Wit Restord, 1658, in the reprint 'Facetiæ,' London, 1817, I, 293. b. Wit and Drollery, 1682, p. 81.
LITTLE MUSGRAVE AND LADY BARNARD—B
Percy MS., p. 53, Hales and Furnivall, I, 119.
LITTLE MUSGRAVE AND LADY BARNARD—C
a. Pepys Ballads, I, 364, No 187. b. Pepys Ballads, III, 314, No 310. c. Roxburghe Ballads, III, 146. d. Roxburge Ballads, III, 340. e. Bagford Ballads, I, 36.

THE BONNY BIRDY
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 42; Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 162.

CHILD MAURICE—A
Percy MS., p. 346; Hales and Furnivall, II, 502.


CHILD MAURICE—B
Motherwell's MS., p. 255; Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 282. From the singing of Widow McCormick, Paisley, January 19, 1825. Learned by her of an old woman in Dumbarton: Motherwell's Note Book, fol. 4.
CHILD MAURICE—C
Motherwell's MS., p. 510, from the singing of Mrs Storie, wife of William Storie, laborer, Lochwinnoch. A song of Mrs Storie's grandmother. [See Child's end notes for this ballad]
CHILD MAURICE—D
Motherwell's MS., p. 480, from the recitation of Widow Michael, a very old woman, as learned by her in Banffshire seventy years before. August, 1826. [Child's notes]
CHILD MAURICE—E
Motherwell's MS., p. 165; Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 269. From the recitation of Mrs Thomson, Kilbarchan, seventy years of age, as learned from her mother at the Water of Leven, Dumbarton, when she was ten years old. March, 1825. [Child's notes]
CHILD MAURICE—F
Percy's Reliques, III, 93, 1765. b. Letter of T. Gray to Mason, June, 1757 (?): Gray's Works, ed. Gosse, II, 316.
CHILD MAURICE—G
Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 18; Jamieson, in The Scots Magazine, 1803, LXV, 698, stanzas 1, 3.

BONNY BARBARA ALLAN—A
a. The Tea-Table Miscellany, IV, 46, ed. 1740; here from the London edition of 1763, p. 343. b. Percy's Reliques, III, 131, ed. 1765, "with a few conjectural emendations from a written copy."
BONNY BARBARA ALLAN—B
a. Roxburghe Ballads, II, 25; reprint of the Ballad Society, III, 433. b. Roxburghe Ballads, III, 522. c. A broadside formerly belonging to Bishop Percy. d. Percy's Reliques, 1765, III, 125.

YOUNG JOHNSTONE—A
Herd's Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 305.

FAUSE FOODRAGE—A
Alexander Fraser Tytler's Brown MS., No 3.
FAUSE FOODRAGE—C
Harris MS., No 18, fol. 22: derived from Jannie Scott, an old Perthshire nurse, about 1790.

JELLON GRAME—A
a. A. Fraser Tytler's Brown MS., No 4. b. Scott's Minatrelsy, II, 20, 1802.

FAIR MARY OF WALLINGTON—A
Lovely Jenny's Garland, three copies, as early as 1775, but without place or date.
FAIR MARY OF WALLINGTON—B
Herd's MSS: a, I, 186; b, II, 89.
FAIR MARY OF WALLINGTON—C
Alexander Fraser Tytler's Brown MS., No 5.

BONNY BEE HOM—A
Alexander Fraser Tytler's Brown MS., No 6.

LAMKIN—A
Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 176, communicated by Mrs Brown.
LAMKIN—F
a. Notes and Queries, Second Series, II, 324, as sung by a nurse nearly a century ago [1856] in Northumberland. b. Notes and Queries, Fourth Series, II, p. 281, from Northamptonshire, communicated by Mr B. H. Cowper.
LAMKIN—K
Communicated to Percy by Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, near Ashford, Kent, April 19, 1775.
LAMKIN—P
Herd's MSS, I, 25.

YOUNG WATERS
Percy's Reliques, 1765, II, 172.

THE MAID FREED FROM THE GALLOWS—A
Communicated to Percy, April 7, 1770, by the Rev. P. Parsons, of Wey, from oral tradition.

THE GAY GOSHAWK—A
Jamieson-Brown MS., No 6, pt 15.
THE GAY GOSHAWK—E
Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, II, 7, 1802; III, 151, 1833.

BROWN ROBIN—A
a. Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 37. b. Abbotsford MS., "Scottish Songs."

BROWN ADAM—A
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 17.
JOHNIE SCOT—A
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 5.

WILLIE O WINSBURY—B
Herd's MSS, I, 29; II, 98.
WILLIE O WINSBURY—D
Communicated to Percy by the Rev. P. Parsons, of Wey, apparently in 1775. "This I had from the spinning-wheel."

WILLIE O DOUGLAS DALE—A
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 8.

WILLIE AND EARL RICHARD'S DAUGHTER—A
Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 44, from Mrs Brown's recitation.

ROSE THE RED AND WHITE LILY—A
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 1.

THE BAILIFF'S DAUGHTER OF ISLINGTON
Printed for P. Brooksby, Roxburghe Ballads, II, 457. b. Printed for J. Walter, Douce Ballads, II, fol. 229. c. Printed for P. Brooksby, Pepys Ballads, III, 258, No 256. d. Printed for P. Brooksby, Roxburghe Ballads, IV, 56. e. Printed for P. Brooksby, Douce Ballads, II, fol. 230. f. An Aldermary Churchyard copy.

THE FAMOUS FLOWER OF SERVING-MEN
Wood, E. 25, fol. 75, Bodleian Library. b. Pepys, III, 142, No 140, Magdalen College Library, Cambridge. c. A Collection of Old Ballads, I, 216, 1723.

WILL STEWART AND JOHN—A
Percy MS., p. 428; Hales and Furnivall, III, 216.

CHRISTOPHER WHITE
Percy MS., p. 513; Hales and Furnivall, III, 494.

TOM POTTS—A
Percy MS., p. 409; Hales and Furnivall, III, 135.
TOM POTTS—B
a. London, printed for F. Coles, and others, 1677, Bodleian Library, Wood, 259. b. Pepys Penny Merriments, I, 189, Magdalen College Library, Cambridge.
TOM POTTS—C
A white letter sheet in five columns, "published May 29, 1657," The King's Pamphlets, British Museum, 669, f. 20, 55.

THE KNIGHT AND SHEPHERD'S DAUGHTER—A
a. Roxburghe Ballads, III, 160, 161. b. The same, II, 30, 31. [1765]
THE KNIGHT AND SHEPHERD'S DAUGHTER—K
Motherwell's MS., p. 226. From the recitation of Widow McCormick, Westbrae, Paisley, 1825; learned of an old woman in Dumbarton, thirty or forty years before.

CROW AND PIE
MS. Rawlinson, C. 813, fol. 27 b, beginning of the sixteenth century. Halliwell's Nugæ Poeticæ, p. 42.

THE BAFFLED KNIGHT—A
Ravenscroft's Deuteromelia, or, The Second Part of Musick's Melodie, or Melodious Musicke, etc., E 4, London, 1609. Ritson's Ancient Songs, 1790, p. 159. b. Pills to Purge Melancholy, III, 37, 1719.
THE BAFFLED KNIGHT—B
Pills to Purge Melancholy, V, 112, 1719.
THE BAFFLED KNIGHT—C
a. A Collection of Old Ballads, III, 178, 1725. b. Pepys Ballads, V, 169 ff, Nos 162-164, end of the 17th century, the first fifty stanzas. c. Douce Ballads, III, fol. 52 b, Durham: Printed and sold by I. Lane. d. Roxburghe Ballads, III, 674, 1750 (?).
THE BAFFLED KNIGHT—D
a. Herd's Ancient and Modern Scots, p. 328, 1769. b. Dixon, Ancient Poems, Ballads and Songs of the Peasantry of England, p. 123, Percy Society, vol. xvii; Bell, p. 80.

A few additions:

THE LAIDLEY WORM from The Rev. Robert Lambe to Percy, January 29, 1766
THE LAIDLEY WORM/"THE HAGG WORM" (Additions & Corrections) from Capt. E. Grow, from "an old woman" (1775?)

As you can see, I have included a few 19th century references when they mention "really old" people as sources, if the math seems to work. I may have missed some of these and confused others. I am not familiar with any of the sources that Child is dealing with here, and I am going strictly from his information. Please forgive and correct any really gross errors and colossal stupidities! And please continue to correct other errors and feel free to make helpful suggestions.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 07:44 PM

Except for a handful I wouldn't bother dealing separately with the RH ballads as they all appeared together in the various RH Garlands from the middle of the 17th century right into the middle of the 18th and then at the end of the 18th appeared separately on upmarket broadsheets printed by the likes of Lawrie and Whittle.

It might be worth including the reference to Pepys having heard Barbara Allen sung in the theatre in the 17th century.

It would appear that Child had access to the Percy Mss. I wonder why they were never published.

Keep em coming, John.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 05:17 AM

Brian & John
I have access to 2 editions of GGG. The earlier definitely contains The Cambrick Shirt on p11. This edition is undated but was printed by and for R Christopher. It must be c1796 because there's a lot of rhymes added at the back by either Ritson or Douce in 1796. The other edition was printed by Christopher and Jennet of Stockton.

However, in Roy Palmer's 'Folk Songs Collected by Ralph Vaughan Williams' at page 31, Roy says 'The first appearance in print of 'The Cambric Shirt' was in GGG (1784).' The ODNR also backs this up.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 05:52 AM

Thanks Steve. Finding evidence of 'Cambric Shirt' in oral tradition in the 18th century could be siginificant. The North American strain of Child 2 seems to consists entirely of 'Cambric Shirt' variants - I'm not aware of 'The Elfin Knight' strain having made it's way over there...

Wrong again! There's one on Richie's site: a 'Blow, blow' version from Phillips Barry. Just the one, though, as far as I can see.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 10:21 AM

Here is the material from Vol 3 (Dover) from THE ENGLISH AND SCOTTISH POPULAR BALLADS, edited by Francis James Child:

-------------------------------
JOHNIE COCK—A
Communicated to Percy by Miss Fisher, of Carlisle, 1780, No 5 of MS.

ROBYN AND GANDELEYN
Sloane MS., 2593, fol. 14 b, British Museum. [Ritson, Ancient Songs, 1790]

ADAM BELL, CLIM OF THE CLOUGH, AND WILLIAM OF CLOUDESLY
a. Two fragments, stanzas 113-128, 161-170, of an edition by John Byddell, London, 1536: Library of the University of Cambridge.
b. A fragment, stanzas 53-111, by a printer not identified: formerly in the possession of J. Payne Collier.
c. 'Adambel, Clym of the cloughe, and Wyllyam of cloudesle,' William Copeland, London [1548-68]: British Museum, C. 21, c. 64.
d. 'Adam Bell, Clim of the Clough, and William of Cloudesle,' James Roberts, London, 1605: Bodleian Library, C. 39, Art. Selden.
e. Another edition with the same title-page: Bodleian Library, Malone, 299.
'Adam Bell, Clime of the Cloug[he], and William off Cloudeslee,' Percy MS., p. 390: British Museum. Hales and Furnivall, III, 76.
-----------------------
For now, I skipping the Robin Hood ballads. Most of them were available in the 18th century. (See Steve Gardham's note.)
-----------------------

SIR HUGH, OR, THE JEW'S DAUGHTER—A
Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 151, as taken down by the editor from Mrs Brown's recitation.
SIR HUGH, OR, THE JEW'S DAUGHTER—B
Percy's Reliques, I, 32, 1765; from a manuscript copy sent from Scotland.
SIR HUGH, OR, THE JEW'S DAUGHTER—C
Percy papers; communicated to Percy by Paton, in 1768 or 69, and derived from a friend of Paton's.
SIR HUGH, OR, THE JEW'S DAUGHTER—D
Herd's MS., I, 213; stanzas 7-10, II, 219.

QUEEN ELEANOR'S CONFESSION—A
a. A broadside, London, Printed for C. Bates, at the Sun & Bible in Gilt-spur-street, near Pye-corner, Bagford Ballads, II, No 26, 1685? b. A broadside, Printed for C. Bates, in Pye-corner, Bagford Ballads, I, No 33, 1685? c. Another copy of b, reprinted in Utterson's Little Book of Ballads, p. 22. d. A Collection of Old Ballads, 1723, I, 18.

GUDE WALLACE—A
A chap-book of Four New Songs and a Prophecy, 1745? The Scots Musical Museum, 1853, D. Laing's additions, IV, 458; Maidment, Scotish Ballads and Songs, 1859, p. 83.
GUDE WALLACE—B
Communicated to Percy by R. Lambe, of Norham, apparently in 1768.

HUGH SPENCER'S FEATS IN FRANCE—A
Percy MS., p. 281; Hales and Furnivall, II, 290.
HUGH SPENCER'S FEATS IN FRANCE—B
Percy Papers: communicated by the Duchess Dowager of Portland.

DURHAM FIELD
Percy MS., p. 245; Hales and Furnivall, II, 190.

THE BATTLE OF OTTERBURN—A
a. Cotton MS. Cleopatra, C. iv, leaf 64, of about 1550. b. Harleian MS. 293, leaf 52. [Percy, 1794, 1765]
THE BATTLE OF OTTERBURN—B
a. Herd's MS., I, 149, II, 30; Herd's Scottish Songs, 1776, I, 153. b. Scott's Minstrelsy, I, 31, 1802, "corrected" from Herd, 1776, "by a MS. copy."

THE HUNTING OF THE CHEVIOT—A
MS. Ashmole, 48, Bodleian Library, in Skeat's Specimens of English Literature, 1394-1579, ed. 1880, p. 67. [Percy 1765]
THE HUNTING OF THE CHEVIOT—B Chevy Chase
a. Percy MS., p. 188, Hales and Furnivall, II, 7. b. Pepys Ballads, I, 92, No 45, broadside printed for M. G. c. Douce Ballads, fol. 27b, and Roxburghe Ballads, III, 66, broadside printed for F. Coles, T. Vere, and J. Wright. d. Wood's Ballads, 401, 48, broadside printed for F. Coles, T. Vere, and W. Gilbertson. e. Bagford Ballads, I, No 32, broadside printed by and for W. Onley. f. A Scottish. copy, without printer.

KING HENRY FIFTH'S CONQUEST OF FRANCE
a-d, broadsides. a. Among Percy's papers. b. Roxburghe Ballads, III, 358. c. Jewitt's Ballads and Songs of Derbyshire, p. 1. d. Chetham's Library, Manchester, in Hales and Furnivall, Percy's Folio MS., II, 597. e. Percy papers, "taken down from memory." f. Nicolas, History of the Battle of Agincourt, 1832, Appendix, p. 78, from the recitation of a very aged person. g. The same, p. 80, source not mentioned. h. Tyler, Henry of Monmouth, II, 197, apparently from memory. i. Percy Society, XVII, Dixon, Ancient Poems, etc., p. 52, from singing. j. Skene MS., p. 42. k. Macmath MS., p. 27, from tradition. 1, m. Buchan's MSS, I, 176, II, 124, probably broadside or stall copies.

SIR JOHN BUTLER
Percy MS., p. 427; Hales and Furnivall, III, 205.

THE ROSE OF ENGLANDE
Percy MS., p. 423; Hales and Furnivall, III, 187.

SIR ANDREW BARTON—A
Percy MS., p. 490; Hales and Furnivall, III, 399. [Child says: "Given in Old Ballads, 1723, 159; in Percy's Reliques, 1765, II, ...Ritson's Select Colelction of English Songs, 1783, I...."]
SIR ANDREW BARTON—B
Douce Ballads, I, 18 b. b. Pepys Ballads, I, 484, No 249. c. Wood Ballads, 401, 55. d. Roxburghe Ballads, I, 2. e. Bagford Ballads, 643, m. 9 (61). f. Bagford Ballads, 643, m. 10 (77). g. Wood Ballads, 402, 37. h. Glenriddell MSS, XI, 20.

FLODDEN FIELD
From Deloney's Pleasant History of John Winchcomb, in his younger yeares called Jacke of Newberie, etc., London, 1633; reprinted by J. O. Halliwell, London, 1859, p. 48. [Ritson, 1790]

JOHNIE ARMSTRONG—A
a. Wit Restord in severall Select Poems not formerly publisht, London, 1658, p. 30, in Facetiæ, London, 1871, I, 132.
Wit and Drollery, London, 1682, p. 57. [Dryden 1716,]

JOHNIE ARMSTRONG—B
a. Wood, 401, fol. 93 b, London, printed for Francis Grove (1620-55?).
b. Pepys, II, 133, No 117, London, printed for W. Thackeray and T. Passenger (1660-82?). [Evans, 1777, Ritson, 1783 & 1794, Herd 1769, 1776]
A Collection of Old Ballads, 1723, I, 170.
JOHNIE ARMSTRONG—C
Allan Ramsay, The Ever Green, II, 190, "copied from a gentleman's mouth of the name of Armstrang, who is the 6th generation from this John."

THE DEATH OF QUEEN JANE—A
Communicated to Percy by the Dean of Derry, as written from memory by his mother, Mrs. Bernard, February, 1776.
THE DEATH OF QUEEN JANE—C
Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 182; "from two fragments, one transmitted from Arbroath and another from Edinburgh." b. Herd's MSS, I, 103.

THOMAS CROMWELL
Percy MS., p. 55; Hales and Furnivall, I, 129.

MUSSELBURGH FIELD
'Musleboorrowe ffeild,' Percy MS., p. 54; Hales and Furnivall, I, 123.

MARY HAMILTON—R
Burns, in a letter to Mrs Dunlop, January 25, 1790; Currie, II, 290, 1800.

EARL BOTHWELL
Percy MS., p. 272; Hales and Furnivall, II, 260.

THE RISING IN THE NORTH
Percy MS., p. 256; Hales and Furnivall, II, 210.

NORTHUMBERLAND BETRAYED BY DOUGLAS
Percy MS., p. 259; Hales and Furnivall, II, 217.

CAPTAIN CAR, OR, EDOM O GORDON—A
Cotton MS. Vespasian, A. xxv, No 67, fol. 187 of the last quarter of the 16th century, British Museum; ritson's ancient song, 1790, p 137; ...; Furnivall, in Transactions of the New Shakspere Society, 1880-86, Appendix, p. 52.
CAPTAIN CAR, OR, EDOM O GORDON—B
Percy MS., p. 34; hales and Furnivall, I, 79.
CAPTAIN CAR, OR, EDOM O GORDON—C
Communicated to Percy by Robert Lambe, Norham, October 4, 1766, being all that a servant of Lambe's could remember.
CAPTAIN CAR, OR, EDOM O GORDON—D
Robert and Andrew Foulis, Glasgow, 1755; "as preserved in the memory of a lady."

ROOKHOPE RYDE
The Bishopric Garland, or Durham Minstrel [edited by Joseph Ritson], 2d ed., Newcastle, 1792; here, from the reprint by Joseph Haslewood, 1809, p. 54, in Northern Garlands, London, 1810. "Taken down from the chanting of George Collingood the elder, late of Boltsburn, in the neighborhood of Ryhope," who died in 1785.

KING JAMES AND BROWN
Percy MS., p. 58; Hales and Furnivall, I, 135.

THE BONNY EARL OF MURRAY—A
Ramsay's Tea-Table Miscellany, 1763, p. 356. [Percy 1765, Herd 1769, Riston 1794]

THE LAIRD O LOGIE—B
Herd, The Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 240.

THE LADS OF WAMPHRAY
Glenriddell MSS, XI, 34, 1791.

DICK O THE COW
'An excelent old song cald Dick of the Cow.' Percy Papers, 1775. b. Caw's Poetical Museum, p. 22, 1784. c. Campbell, Albyn's Anthology, II, 31, 1818.

JOCK O THE SIDE—A
Percy MS., p. 254; Hales and Furnivall, II, 203.
JOCK O THE SIDE—B
a. Caw's Poetical Museum, 1784, p. 145; "from an old manuscript copy." b. Campbell's Albyn's Anthology, II, 28; "taken down from the recitation of Mr Thomas Shortreed," of Jedburgh, "who learnt it from his father."
JOCK O THE SIDE—C
Percy Papers. "The imperfect copy sent me from Keelder, as collected from the memory of an old person by Mr William Hadley, in 1775."
JOCK O THE SIDE—D
Percy Papers. "These are scraps of the old song repeated to me by Mr Leadbeater, from the neighborhood of Hexham, 1774."

ARCHIE O CAWFIELD—A
Communicated to Percy by Miss Fisher of Carlisle, 1780.
ARCHIE O CAWFIELD—B
a. Glenriddell MSS, XI, 14, 1791, "an old West Border ballad." b. Scott's Minstrelsy, 1833, II, 116.


---Additions
THE LASS OF ROCH ROYAL/"THE LASS OF OCRAM"
"There is a version of this ballad in the Roxburghe collection, III, 488, a folio slip without imprint, dated in teh Museum Catalogue 1740....Mr Ebsworth in the Roxburghe Ballads, VI 609...puts the date of issue circa 1765"
--
Also, check out LAMKIN - P
Child says: "The negroes of Dumfries, Prince William County, Virginia, have this ballad, orally transmitted from the original Scottish settlers of that region, with the stanza found in F (19) and T (14):
        Mr Lammikin, Mr Lammikin,
        oh, spare me my life,
        And I'll give you my daughter Betsy,
        And she shall be your wife.
"They sang it to a monotonous measure." (Mrs. Dulany)"

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 04:36 PM

One interesting fact that this survey is throwing up is the small number that survived in oral tradition in any significant numbers into the 19th century.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 05:19 PM

Steve, when I get through with this listing of Child's ballads documented in the 18th century, I'll have some questions about "oral tradition" and broadsides.

Here is the material from Vol 4:

HOBIE NOBLE
Caw's Poetical Museum, p. 193. b. 'Hobie Noble,' Percy Papers.

HUGHIE GRAME—A
a. Roxburghe Ballads, II, 294. b. Douce Ballads, II, 204 b. c. Rawlinson Ballads, 566, fol. 9. All printed for P. Brooksby: 1672-95(?). d. Pills to purge Melancholy, VI, 289, 17. e. Roxburghe Ballads, III, 344. [Ritson 1790]

THE LOCHMABEN HARPER—A
a. Glenriddell MS. XI, 42, 1791; "from a MS. collection of Mr Henderson." b. Johnson's Museum, No 579, VI, 598, 1803, communicated by Burns. c. Scott's Minstrelsy, 1802, I, 65.
THE LOCHMABEN HARPER—B
Glenriddell MSS, XI, 39, 1791; "from Dr Clapperton, of Lochmaben."

THE LOCHMABEN HARPER—C
The Edinburgh Topographical, Traditional, and Antiquarian Magazine, 1849, p. 58; communicated by W. G. "from the recitation of a friend, who learned it many years ago from her grandfather," a farmer in Wigtonshire, who died in 1813, at the age of ninety-four.

LORD MAXWELL'S LAST GOODNIGHT—A
Communicated to Percy by G. Paton, Edinburgh, December 4, 1778
LORD MAXWELL'S LAST GOODNIGHT—B
Glenriddell MSS, XI, 18. 1791.

THE FIRE OF FRENDRAUGHT—D
Ritson's Scotish Songs, 1794, II, 35; remembered by the Rev. Mr Boyd, translator of Dante, and communicated to the editor by J. C. Walker.

THE BONNIE HOUSE O AIRLIE—A
a. Sharpe's Ballad Book, p. 59, No 20, 1823. b. Finlay's Ballads, II, 25, 1808, from two recited copies and "one printed about twenty years ago on a single sheet." c. Skene MS., pp. 28, 54, from recitation in the north of Scotland, 1802-3. d. Campbell MSS, II, 113, probably from a stallcopy. e, f. Aberdeen stall copies, "printed for the booksellers." g. Hogg's Jacobite Relics, II, 152, No 76, "Cromek and a street ballad collated, 1821." h. Kinloch MSS, VI, 5, one stanza, taken down from an old woman's recitation by J. Robertson.   ["The earliest copy of this ballad hitherto found is a broadside of about 1790...."]
THE GYPSY LADDIE—A
Ramsay's Tea-Table Miscellany, vol. iv, 1740. Here from the London edition of 1763, p. 427. [Herd 1769, 1776, Pinkerton 1783, Ritson 1794]
THE GYPSY LADDIE—G
a. A broadside in the Roxburghe Ballads, III, 685, entered in the catalogue, doubtfully, as of Newcastle upon Tyne, 1720. b. A recent stall-copy, Catnach, 2 Monmouth Court, Seven Dials.
THE GYPSY LADDIE—K
a. From Mrs Helena Titus Brown of New York. b. From Miss Emma A. Clinch of New York. Derived, 1820, or a little later, a directly, b indirectly, from the singing of Miss Phœbe Wood, Huntington, Long Island, and perhaps learned from English soldiers there stationed during the Revolutionary war.

BESSY BELL AND MARY GRAY
Sharpe's Ballad Book, 1823, p. 62. b. Lyle's Ancient Ballads and Songs, 1827, p. 160, "collated from the singing of two aged persons, one of them a native of Perthshire." c. Scott's Minstrelsy, 1833, I, 45, two stanzas. [Child says: "A squib on the birth of the Chevalier St Geroge, beginning
        Bessy Bell and Mary Grey,
        Those famous bonny lasses,
shows that this little ballad, or song, was very well known in the last years of the seventeenth century. The first stanza was made by Ramsay the beginning of a song of his own, and stands thus in Ramsay's Poem, Edinburgh, 1721, p. 80:
        O Bessy Bell and Mary Gray,
        They are tw bonny lasses;
        They bigged a bower on yon Burn-brae,
        And theekd it oer wi rashes.

THE BARON OF BRACKLEY—C
Jamieson-Brown MS., Appendix, p. viii, as transcribed for Jamieson by Rev. Andrew Brown, and sent him by Mrs Brown in a letter of June 18, 1801. b. Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 102; Mrs. Brown's copy combined with an imperfect one taken down by Sir W. Scott "from the recitation of two ladies, great-grandchildren of Farquharson of Inverey."

JAMIE DOUGLAS—J
Motherwell's MS., p. 299; from the recitation of Rebecca Dunse, a native of Galloway, 4 May, 1825. "A song of her mother's, an old woman."
JAMIE DOUGLAS—M
Herd's MSS, I, 54. [1776]
Also: WALY, WALY, GIN LOVE BE BONY
Ramsay's Tea-Table Miscellany, the second volume, published before 1727; here from the Dublin edition of 1729, p. 176. b. Thomson's Orpheus Caledonius, seond edition, 1733, I, 71; four stanzas in the first edition, 1725, No 34. [Percy 1765, Herd 1796]

And from the Appendix:
ARTHUR'S SEAT SHALL BE MY BED, ETC., OR, LOVE IN DESPAIR
A new song much in request, sung with its own proper tune.
Laing, Broadsides Ballads, No. 61, not dated but considered to have been printed towards the end of the seventeenth or the beginning of the eighteenth century, and probably at Edinburgh.

GEORDIE—A
Johnson's Museum, No 346, p. 357, 1792; communicated by Robert Burns.
And from Appendix:
"A lamentable new ditty, made upon the death of a worthy gentleman named George Stoole...." Roxburghe Collection, I [Ritson 1793]

BONNIE JAMES CAMPBELL—A
Herd's MSS, I, 40, II, 184.

BEWICK AND GRAHAM
'The Song of Bewick and Grahame,' a stall-copy, in octavo, British Museum, 11621. e. 1. (4.) b. 'A Remarkable and Memorable Song of Sir Robert Bewick and the Laird Graham,' broadside, Roxburghe Ballads, III, 624. c. 'A Remarkable and Memorable Song of Sir Robert Bewick and the Laird Graham,' broadside, Percy papers. d. 'Bewick and Graham's Garland,' M. Angus and Son, Newcastle, Bell Ballads, Abbotsford Library, P. 5, vol. i, No 60. e. Broadside, in "A Jolly Book of Garlands collected by John Bell in Newcastle," No 29, Abbotsford Library, E. 1. f. 'Bewick and Graham,' chapbook, Newcastle, W. Fordyce. g. "Scotch Ballads, Materials for Border Minstrelsy," No 145, Abbotsford. h. 'Chirstie Græme,' the same, No 89. ["No copy of this ballad earlier than the last century is known to me. The Museum Catalogue gives a conjectural date of 1740 to a. and of 1720 to b. and, conjecturally again, to Newcastle."]

SIR JAMES THE ROSE
From a stall-tract of about 1780, Abbotsford library. b. Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 321. c. Sir James the Rose's Garland, one of a volume of the like from Heber's library. d. Motherwell's MS., p. 281; from the recitation of Mrs Gentles, of Paisley. e. Herd's MSS, I, 82. f. The same, II, 42. g. 'Sir James the Rose,' Pinkerton's Scottish Tragic Ballads, 1781, p. 61.

THE BRAES O YARROW—A
Communicated to Percy by Dr William Robertson, Principal of Edinburgh.
THE BRAES O YARROW—D
Communicated to Percy by Robert Lambe, Norham, April 16, 1768.
THE BRAES O YARROW—O
Herd's MSS, I, 35, II, 181. [Ritson 1794]

RARE WILLIE DROWNED IN YARROW, OR, THE WATER O GAMRIE—A
Thomson's Orpheus Caledonius, II, 110, 1733.
RARE WILLIE DROWNED IN YARROW, OR, THE WATER O GAMRIE—B
a. Cromek's Select Scotish Songs, 1810, II, 196; eighth and ninth stanzas of a fragment sent William Tytler by Burns in 1790. b. Stenhouse's edition of the Musical Museum, 1853, IV, 464.

And in the Appendix:
"ALLAN WATER" /ANNAN WATER
"mentioned in Ramsay's Tea-Table Miscellany...1729"

THE MOTHER'S MALISON, OR, CLYDE'S WATER—B
Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 135; from Mrs Brown's recitation, apparently in 1800.

THE BROOM OF COWDENKNOWS—A
Percy papers; communicated to Percy by R. Lambe, of Norham, August 17, 1768, and dated May, 1768.
THE BROOM OF COWDENKNOWS—B
Herd's Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 308. b. Johnson's Museum, No 110, p. 113.
"The Broom of Cowdenknows,' a "new" song, in the Tea-Table Miscellany, p. 22, Dublin, 1729...."

THE BONNY LASS OF ANGLESEY—A
Herd's MSS, I, 148.

BONNY BABY LIVINGSTON—A
Jamieson-Brown MS., Appendix, p. xii, sent by Mrs Brown to Jamieson, in a letter dated September 15, 1800. b. Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 135, as taken from Mrs Brown's recitation a short time before a was written down.
EPPIE MORRIE
Maidment's North Countrie Garland, p. 40, 18 ["This ballad," says Maiment, "is probably much more than a century old...."]

BONNY LIZIE BAILLIE
'Bonny Lizie Balie, A New Song very much in Request,' Laing broadsides, No 46; no date or place. b. 'Bonny Lizzie Bailie,' Maidment's Scotish Ballads and Songs, 1859, p. 13. c. 'My bonny Lizzie Baillie,' Johnson's Museum, ed. 1853, IV, 451. d. 'Lizae Baillie,' Herd's MSS, I, 101, [1776] and, in part, II, 121. e. 'Lizie Baillie,' Campbell MSS, I, 98. f. 'Lizzie Bailie,' Smith's Scotish Minstrel, IV, 90. g. 'Lizie Baillie,' Buchan's Ballads of the North of Scotland, II, 173.

CHARLIE MAC PHERSON—A
Harris MS., fol. 23 b; from Mrs Harris's singing. ["The ballad was known to Mrs Brown of Falkland. She gives it the title of 'The Carrying-off of the Heiress of Kinady,'..."]

THE EARL OF ABOYNE—B
Buchan's Gleanings, p. 71, 1825. b. Gibb MS., p. 29, No 5, 1882, as learned by Mrs Gibb, senior, "fifty years ago," in Strachan, Kincardineshire.
"None of the versions here gien g beyond 1800. Mrs Brown of Falkland, in an unprinted letter to Alexander Fraser Tytler, December 23, 1800, offers him 'The death of The Coountess of Aboyne,' which she had heard sung when a child...."

THE LAIRD O DRUM—B
Skene MS., p. 78; taken down from recitation in the north of Scotland, 1802-3. [see Herd 1776, in Appendix]

GLENLOGIE, OR, JEAN O BETHELNIE—F
Communicated to Percy by Robert Lambe, of Norham, August 17, 1768; dated April, 1768.

THE RANTIN LADDIE—A
a. Johnson's Musical Museum, No 462, p. 474, communicated by Robert Burns; 1797. b. Buchan's Ballads of the North of Scotland, II, 66, 1828.

JAMES HARRIS (THE DÆMON LOVER)—A
Pepys Ballads, IV, 101; from a copy in Percy's papers.
JAMES HARRIS (THE DÆMON LOVER)—B
The Rambler's Garland, British Museum, 11621, c. 4 (57). 1785(?)

LADY ELSPAT
a. Jamieson-Brown MS., p. 19. Printed in Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 191. b. "Scottish Songs," MS., fol. 30, Abbotsford Library, N. 3, in the handwriting of Walter Scott, about 1795.

THE GREY COCK, OR, SAW YOU MY FATHER?
a. 'The Grey Cock,' Herd's Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 324; Herd's MSS, I, 4; Herd's Ancient and Modern Scottish Songs, 1776, II, 208. b. 'Saw you my father?' Chappell's Popular Music, p. 731. [1772, 1787]

THE KITCHIE-BOY—C
Alexander Fraser Tytler's Brown MS., No 7.

Additions:
THE TWA SISTERS
Anna Seward to Walter Scott - a version of "Binnorie" "I first heard sung, with farcial grimace, in my infancy [born 1747], ..."
KING JOHN AND THE BISHOP - P
"was printed and sold by John White, Newcastle-upon-tyne, "circa 1777:"
YOUNG BEICHAN
from Mrs Christiana Greenwood, London, to Scott, 1806, "as heard by her in her youth at Longnewton, near Jedburgh, "where most of the old women could sing it."

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,Dave Ruch typing on cell phone
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 06:02 PM

Hi John,

Have you tried Kate Van Winkle Keller and David Hildebrand? You can find both with a quick Google search. They seem to specialize in "folk" and other music from colonial America, and I know they've gone through a fair number of manuscripts from that period.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:00 PM

Okay, John. Be glad to help.

Kate's on Ballad List.

As you're on Vol 5, most of the single version stuff won't be in your list.

Most of the humorous songs are straight off broadsides and are really only there as representatives of their type, Get up and bar the door, Keach i' the Creel etc., and could easily have been replaced by a thousand more similar pieces.

295A is a late 18thc garland ballad and slip song.
The concoction that is 295B derives from A and another late 18thc ballad that was very common in the 19thc and from which all of the American versions derive. There are a few Scottish fragments that derive from A in the Greig/Duncan Collection. B is a recent fabrication c1890. As Child demonstrates, even A is a concoction of bits and pieces from other ballads, but by a broadside hack.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 12:27 PM

Here is what I could glean from Vol 5 of THE ENGLISH AND SCOTTISH POPULAR BALLADS (Dover) with regard to ballads from the 1700s collected by Child. I have included all of the Appendices, etc. Again, please forgive gross errors and misunderstandings since I am totally unfamiliar with Child's sources. At the end of all of this, I did find Child's "Sources Of The Texts of the English and Scottish Ballads", which was very helpful and if I had the energy, I should go back over everything and double check it with this list in hand, but for now..."

--------------
JOHN THOMSON AND THE TURK—B
Leyden's Glossary to The Complaynt of Scotland, p. 371. ["Leyden (1801) says that he had "heard the whole song when very young."]

THE HEIR OF LINNE—A
Percy MS., p. 71; Hales and Furnivall, I, 174. [1765, 1794]
And, "THE RUNKARD'S LEGACY" from Percy's Papers in Appendix

THE LORD OF LORN AND THE FALSE STEWARD—A
Percy MS., p. 73, Hales and Furnivall, I, 180.
THE LORD OF LORN AND THE FALSE STEWARD—B
Wood, 401, fol. 95 b. b. Roxburghe, I, 222, III, 534; Roxburghe Ballads, ed. Chappell, II, 55. c. Pepys, I, 494, No 254 (from a transcript in Percy's p

THE SUFFOLK MIRACLE
Wood, E. 25, fol. 83. b. Roxburghe, II, 240; Moore's Pictorial Book of Ancient Ballad Poetry, p. 463. [also Pepys,III...Old Ballads, 1723]

KING EDWARD THE FOURTH AND A TANNER OF TAMWORTH
a. Wood, 401, fol. 44, Bodleian Library.
b. Douce, I, 109, Bodleian Library.
Roxburghe, I, 176, 177; Chappell, Roxburghe Ballads, I, 529.

And "KING HENRY II AND THE MILLER OF MANSFIELD in Percy

OUR GOODMAN—A
Herd's MSS, I, 140. [1776]
OUR GOODMAN—B
A broadside: Printed and Sold at the Printing-Office in Bow Church-Yard, London.

GET UP AND BAR THE DOOR—A
Herd, The Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 330. b. [Pinkerton], Select Scotish Ballads, 1783, II, 150.
GET UP AND BAR THE DOOR—C
Johnson's Museum, IV, 376, No 365, 1792. Contributed by Robert Burns.

THE FRIAR IN THE WELL—A
a. Rawlinson, 566, fol. 63, 40. b. Roxburghe, II, 172; Ebsworth, Roxburghe Ballads, VII, 222. c. D'Urfey's Pills to purge Melancholy, ed. 1719, III, 325.

THE WIFE WRAPT IN WETHER'S SKIN—A
Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 319. "From the recitation of a friend of the editor's in Morayshire." [A fragment in Herd's MSS, I...belongs, if not to this ballad, at least to one in which an attempt is made to tame a shrew by castigation."]

THE JOLLY BEGGAR—B
a. Herd, The Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 46. b. Curious Tracts, Scotland, British Museum, 1078, m. 24, No 30. ["The Gaberlunyie -Man" was, so far as can be ascertained, first printed in teh Tea-Table Miscellany (in 1724)...."    Pinkerton 1783, Johnson, 1790, ritson 1794, Herd 1776]

THE CRAFTY FARMER
a. 'The Crafty Farmer,' Logan, A Pedlar's Pack, p. 126, from a chap-book of 1796; 'The Crafty Miller,' Maidment, Scotish Ballads and Songs, 1859, p. 208, from a Glasgow stall-copy; a stall-copy, printed by M. Randall, Stirling.
'The Yorkshire Farmer,' Kidson, Traditional Tunes, p.140, from The Manchester Songster, 1792.

JOHN DORY
Ravenscroft's Deuteromelia, London, 1609; No 1 of Freemen's Songs, sig. B.

THE GEORGE ALOE AND THE SWEEPSTAKE
a. Percy Papers, "from an ancient black-letter copy in Ballard's collection."
b. Rawlinson, 566, fol. 183, 40.
Roxburghe, III, 204, in Ebsworth, Roxburghe Ballads, VI, 408.

THE SWEET TRINITY (THE GOLDEN VANITY)—A
Pepys Ballads, IV, 196, No 189.

CAPTAIN WARD AND THE RAINBOW
Bagford Ballads, I, 65. [Pepys]

THE YOUNG EARL OF ESSEX'S VICTORY OVER THE EMPEROR OF GERMANY—A
Douce Ballads, III, fol. 80 b. b. Roxburghe, III, 416, in Ebsworth's Roxburghe Ballads, VI, 405. [in Evans's Old Ballads, 1777]

THE MERMAID—A
The Glasgow Lasses Garland, the second piece, British Museum, 11621. c. 3 (68). "Newcastle, 1765?"

JOHN OF HAZELGREEN—A
Elizabeth Cochrane's MS., p. 126. ["having been transcribed by C.K. Sharpe for Sir W. Scott "from a 4to MS., in a female hand, written probably about one hundred years ago,...."]

THE OUTLAW MURRAY—A
Herd's MSS, II, fol. 76, I, 255, 1795. b. Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, 1803, I, 1; principally from a copy found among the papers of the late Mrs Cockburn, of Edinburgh. c. Aytoun's Ballads of Scotland, 1859, II, 131; "from an old manuscript in the Philiphaugh charterchest," now not accessible. d. A copy among the Philiphaugh papers, transcribed not earlier than 1848.
THE OUTLAW MURRAY—B
Glenriddell's MSS, XI, 61, 1791.
-----
ADDITIONS & CORRECTIONS, etc

THE THREE RAVENS
a version from E. Peacock, Lincolnshire, "whose father, born in 1793, heard it as a boy at harvest suppers and sheep-shearings, and took down a copy from the recitation of Harry Richard, a laborer, who cold not read and had leart it 'from his fore-elders.'

THE GARDENER
Five Excellent New Songs. Edinburgh. Printed and sold by William Forrest, at the head of the Cowgate, 1766.

FAIR MARGARET AND SWEET WILLIAM
"Communicated by Miss Mary E. Burleigh, of Worcester MA, and deriaved, through a relative, from her great-grandmother, who had heard the ballad sung at gatherings of young people in Webster, MA, not long after 1820."

THE BAFFLED KNIGHT
The Complete Collection of Old and New English and Scotch Songs, 1735...repetitions from earlier publications;...."

THE WIFE WRAPT IN WETHER'S SKIN
"From the recitation of Miss Lydia R. Nichols, Salem, MA, as heard in the early years of this century. Sung by a New England country fellow on ship-board...."

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 12:30 PM

Dave Ruch, thanks for the reference to Kate Van Winkle Keller and David Hildebrand. I have checked out their website and found it most interesting.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 02:15 PM

It seems that many of the ballads in Child's collection were around in one form or another in England and Scotland in the 1700s. Without creating any hard and fast categories, I would suggest four different groupings. There were "manuscript" collections, which were not usually public, unless they had been gathered up and published. There were "broadsides" and broadside collections. These may have been old and would probably have fallen into the category of manuscript collections. Or they were contemporary and in active circulation. Then there were the actual publications of books, etc., which contained "collections". It would appear that a number of these went through several editions during the 18th century, especially toward the end of the century. And finally, there were the ballads that were still being sung in the "oral tradition". It would seem that some of these ballads still being sung were beginning to be collected toward the end of the century and would perhaps show up in the early 19th century published collections, which would also contain much of the manuscript material as well. There may have been and probably was overlap amongst these different groupings.

Now the question is, for my purposes, how did each of these groupings of ballad material contribute to their exportation to the American Colonies and later to the new republic in the 1700s? Obviously, actual books could have been exported or brought over by immigrants. But realistically, how often, back then, would a ballad be taken from a book and sung and thus put back into oral circulation? It is certainly possible. But I would assume not so likely.

On the other hand, contemporary Broadside Ballad sheets could easily have been exported to America in many different ways. And one would assume that to a certain extent that these were designed for singing? Or at least some were used for that purpose. So, which of these ballads found in the 18th century were in contemporary Broadside form? Which ones were actually published as broadsides in the 1700s?   Is there an accessible list for this? Or is this going to entail another sorting project? I don't really have the background to do this because I am not familiar at all with the sources.

I would assume that until they were "collected" and published, the various manuscript collections were not available for public use either in England and Scotland, or in America. Unless someone had made a copy and brought it over with them, they would not likely have gotten to America from this group.

And that leaves those ballads that were being actively sung in the oral tradition throughout the 1700s in England and Scotland. I did notice quite often that ballads were "taken down from recitation" in Child's notes. A lot of them were not being sung but recited like poetry? That is a somewhat different kind of oral tradition than one would normally think of in association with ballads. Can we tell which of these ballads were being sung in England and Scotland during the 1700s? I would assume that just because they show up in a written manuscript or a published book doesn't mean that they necessarily had "died out of the oral tradition." I suspect that some of this information is probably in those collections from the first quarter of the 19th century, such as Scot, which I have not included in my survey. But once again, I am not familiar with these materials. How do we find out which ones were being sung?

I would assume that the two primary ways that these ballads traveled to America were either by the oral tradition or by the Broadside tradition, or some combination of these two.

This means that what we've established with this survey is the probable exclusion - although they may have been in the oral tradition and not "collected" yet - of those ballads for which there is no written documentation in Child (or elsewhere) until at least 1825 or so. It turns out that this doesn't really narrow the scope very significantly. On the flip side, we can say, at least theoretically that all of the ballads for which we do have documentation (in Child and elsewhere) in 18th century England and Scotland (and in a few cases Ireland), "could" have come over to America during that time, or later.

But the fact is, as far as documentation goes, there is no evidence that many of them ever did come over to America. Now I want to look at which of the ballads from the survey of 18th century material have been "collected" from the oral traditions in America prior to audio recordings and radio. However, for the most part, our American documentation for this comes from the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century. It was interesting to come across a handful of American versions in Child, almost all of them in the footnotes and appendices. I had not expected that. Some of them were dated fairly early in the 19th century.

I am not at all sure that when all of this is said and done that we'll actually have any more certain information that when we began, but at least I will have a better understanding of the scope of things. That seems helpful and may raise some additional questions of interest.

Remember, I am trying to document the presence of any of the so-called "Child" ballads in America in the 1700s. I continue to appreciate all of your help.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 04:27 PM

John,
Apart from trawling through endless manuscript collections and indeed published accounts of the period, your best chance is looking at what survived to be collected and the differences between American versions and British versions, and you would do really well to co-operate with Richie in this venture as he has already made a strong start.

You are right to suggest the most likely sources of material migrating is oral tradition and street literature. A strong source seems to have been those little songsters with about 200 songs in published on both sides of the pond in the early part of the 19th century. Sharp certainly believed when he was collectiong in the Appalachians that many of the ballads had been circulating there for more than a century. There are indeed a few early ballads that were found in America that had long died out in Britain.

FWIW you need to be aware that literary interference existed both this side and your side. From an early stage collectors were fabricating and expanding oral material, for various reasons, mostly commercial. And indeed there is evidence to suggest that some of these fabrications went into oral tradition. Equally a similar process was going among the broadside hacks who saw nothing wrong in rewriting an old ballad to turn a quick shilling. This process often accounts for those ballads that have widely varying versions.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:59 PM

It is quite possible that these books, published in the 1700s, found their way to America. But I doubt that any ballads entered the oral tradition in America directly from them.

"WIT AND MIRTH: or Pills to Purge Melancholy; being a Collection of the best Merry Ballads and Songs, Old and New. Fitted to all Humours, having each their proper Tune for either Voice or Instrument: most of the Songs being new set." By Thomas D'Urfey. 6 vols. London. 1719-20.

"THE TEA-TABLE MISCELLANY: A Collection of Choice Songs, Scots and English." Edinburgh. 1724. 4 vols. [Glasgow, R. & A. Foulis. 1768. 2 vols.]

RELIQUES OF ANCIENT ENGLISH POETRY: Consisting of Old Heroic Ballads, Songs, and other Pieces of our Earlier Poets; together with some few of later date. By THOMAS PERCY, Lord Bishop of Dromore." 3 vols. 1st ed. London, 1765. [4th ed. (improved) 1794.--London, L. A. Lewis, 1839.]

"ANCIENT AND MODERN SCOTTISH SONGS, heroic Ballads, &c." By DAVID HERD. 2 vols. Edinburgh, 1769. 2d ed. 1776. [3d ed. Printed for Lawrie and Symington, 1791.]

"A SELECT COLLECTION OF ENGLISH SONGS, with their Original Airs, and an Historical Essay on the Origin and Progress of National Song." By J. Ritson. 1783. 2d ed. with Additional Songs and Occasional Notes, by Thomas Park. London, 1813. 3 vols.

"SCOTISH SONG. In two volumes." JOSEPH RITSON. London, 1794.   And other Ritson books.

Is there any documentation on these books being in America in the 1700s? And does anyone know of an instance when a ballad passed from such a book back into the "oral tradition" - prior to the middle of the 20th century, when all kinds of "folks" were learning ballads out of books.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,julia L
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 11:11 PM

Seems like Williamsburg would be a good source
From Colonial Williamsburg's website on Tavern Music
Particularly popular in Virginia in the 1750s and later was Scottish music, John Turner (resident musician) said. Scottish music was in vogue in London during the period. Virginians who wanted to keep up with current English fashion eagerly embraced these tunes. In his later years, George Washington developed a fondness for these songs and encouraged his granddaughters to perform them for him. Scottish music also was enjoyed by the many Scots who settled and worked in Virginia.

Traditional songs touched on all sorts of topics. To appreciate the variety, consider three ballads Benjamin Franklin described as widely known in a 1765 letter to his brother: "Chevy Chase," "The Children in the Woods," and "The Spanish Lady." "Chevy Chase" tells of a bloody fight between knights. "The Children in the Woods" is a tale about the death of two young orphans caused by their uncle's greed for their inheritance. "The Spanish Lady" reveals the sufferings of a Spanish woman captured by English soldiers. She falls in love with one of her captors, who already has a wife and abandons his smitten prisoner for her.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 07:02 AM

Thanks for the reference to the Colonial Williamsburg Tavern Music website, julia L.    Ben Franklin's reference to "Chevy Chase" is particularly helpful, since it tends to confirm an earlier reference to that ballad above from Mick Pearce. The reference to the popularity of Scottish music is also interesting. Here is another paragraph from that website referring to Thomas Jefferson's music library. I wonder if he had any of the six books I mentioned above in his library. That information might be available somewhere.

"Though the oral transmission of these songs was a powerful force in the 1700s, there also was interest in preserving them in written form. Individuals collected them and published anthologies of traditional music. Thomas Jefferson shelved some of these works in his music library. Music for drinking songs, country dances, and English, Scottish, and Irish airs rested near works by Vivaldi, Handel, and Haydn. Jefferson also liked playing fiddle tunes heard at local gatherings, according to historian Gilbert Chase in America's Music: From the Pilgrims to the Present."

Here is the website:

http://www.history.org/foundation/journal/winter03-04/tavern.cfm

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 08:31 AM

John

There's plenty of stuff on Jefferson's library collection online. It appears (see this pdf: Scottish Enlightenment influence on Thomas Jefferson's book-buying) that 4 catalogues are available.


See also this: Jefferson and Reading.

The Thomas Jefferson archive has a copy of one of his catalogue's avaiable, and of particular interest is this page: Page 192 in Vocal sections.

This shows the following entries:

Drinking Songs 2 books
Curtis's Jessamine
Bach's Songs 2nd collection
Heron's song books 4th and 5th
Favourite songs published by Bremner
Dibden's Songs 8vo
book of songs 8vo
book of songs folio


Sadly few details on contents of the book of songs collections.


Pages 190+ is the music section. Page 196 includes:

Thumoth's English, Scotch & Irish airs
Thumoth's Scotch & Irish airs
Pocket companion for the German flute 8vo


all of which probably contained some well-known tunes.


It's probably worth pursuing, but I haven't time at the moment.

Also Jefferson's library may be more learned (there are books on music theory and classical compositions). You may need to look for more evidence of more popular books.



Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 12:19 PM

Mick, thanks for the Jefferson materials.

Here is my rendition of "Coffin's List", or the Child ballads found in America according to Tristram Potter Coffin/Roger deV. Renwick in THE BRITISH TRADITIONAL BALLAD [as of 1963] (1977 University of Texas Press). I have deleted those ballads which Coffin said were not to be found in the "oral tradition" in America, and I have placed a "?" before those that seem especially questionable according to Coffin. I have also added a few quotes from him here and there.

I have placed brackets [] around those which did not show up on my survey of Child's material documented for the 1700s. The comparison of the "Coffin List" with the 1700s survey list may suggest that some of these citations need to be revisited. Please feel free to offer corrections. I have not tried to update the Coffin/deV. Renwick listing since 1963 yet. There may well be additions. I have not had time yet to consult either Richie's work or the materials sent to me pm by Mick Pearce. These may provide some additions to the "Coffin List".

Coffin's List

Riddles Wisely Expounded
The Elfin Knight
The False Knight on the Road
Lady Isabel and the Elf Knight
[Earl Brand]
The Twa Sisters
The Cruel Brother
Lord Randal
Edward
Babylon or The Bonnie Banks o Fordie
[Hind Horn]
Sir Lionel
The Cruel Mother
St. Stephen and Herod ["There is little doubt that it (the Vermont text in Flanders) was learned from print." p. 46]
[Bonnie Annie] ["...such fragments are too brief to prove much." p.46]
The Three Ravens
[The Whummil Bore]
Thomas Rymer
The Wee Wee Man
[The Queen of Elfan's Nourice]
Clerk Colvill [See discussion of "Lady Alice #85.]
[The Broomfield Hill]
[?]The Two Magicians]
King John and the Bishop
Captain Wedderburn's Courtship
[The Twa Brothers]
[Lizie Wan]
[The King's Dochter Lady Jean]
Young Beichan
The Cherry-Tree Carol
Dives and Lazarus
Sir Patrick Spens
Fair Annie
Child Waters
Lady Maisry
Young Hunting
Lord Thomas and Annet
Fair Margaret and Sweet William
Lord Lovel
The Lass of Roch Royal
Sweet William's Ghost
The Unquiet Grave
[The Wife of Usher's Well]
Little Musgrave and Lady Barnard
Child Maurice
Bonny Barbara Allen
[Lady Alice]
[?]Young Benjie]
[Prince Robert]
Young Johnstone
Jellon Grame
[?]Bonny Bee Hom
Lamkin
The Maid Freed From the Gallows
The Gay Goshawk
Johnie Scott
Willie o Winsberry
Willie and Earl Richard's Daughter ["This text...was probably learned from Kittredge's edition of the Child ballads."]
The Bailiff's Daughter of Islington
The Famous Flower of Serving Men [from the BLACKBIRD SONGSTER?]
The Knight and the Shepherd's Daughter
The Baffled Knight/Blow Away the Morning Dew
Johnie Cock
Robin Hood and Guy of Gisborne
Robin Hood's Death
Robin Hood and Little John
Robin Hood and the Tanner
Robin Hood and the Prince of Aragon ["The Maine version is obviously from print...."]
The Bold Pedlar and Robin Hood ["printed in the American Songster in New York before 1850...."]
Robin Hood and Allen a Dale ["Greenway believes she (Aunt Molly Jackson) learned it fromthe Kittredge on-volume edition of Child and then changed the text."]
Robin Hood's Progress to Nottingham
Robin Hood Rescuing Three Squires [American Songster]
Robin Hood Rescuing Will Stutly
[?]Robin Hood and the Bishop
Sir Hugh, or the Jew's Daughter
Queen Eleanor's Confession
Gude Wallace
The Hunting of the Cheviot
King Henry Fifth's Conquest of France
The Rose of England ["This is the only report of the song from modern oral tradition, and the chances are good the stanzas were learned from print."]
Sir Andrew Bartin/Henry Martyn
The Death of Queen Jane
Mary Hamilton
Northumberland Betrayed by Douglas
Captain Car, or, Edom o Gordon
The Bonnie Earl of Murray
[Willie Macintosh ["...taken down from recitation and appears to be no longer sung in Maine."]
Dick o the Cow
Jock o the Side
Archie o Cawfield
Bonnie House o' Airlie
The Gypsy Laddie
Bessy Bell and Mary Gray
Jamie Douglas
[Lord Dernwentwater]
Geordie
Bonnie James Campbell
The Braes o Yarrow
Rare Willie Drowned in Yarrow, or, The Water o Gamrie
The Broom of Cowdenknows
[The False Lover Won Back]
[Katherine Jafray]
[Rob Roy]
[Lizie Lindsay]
[Glasgow Peggie]
[Andrew Lammie]
The Laird o Drum
The Rantin Laddie
James Harris, (The Daemon Lover)
The Grey Cock, or, Saw You My Father
John Thomson and the Turk
The Heir of Linne
The Suffolk Miracle
Our Goodman
Get Up and Bar the Door
The Wife Wrapt in Wether's Skin
[The Farmer's Curst Wife]
The Jolly Beggar
[The Keach I the Creel]
The Crafty Farmer
The George Aloe and the Sweepstake
The Sweet Trinity (The Golden Vanity)
Captain Ward and the Rainbow
The Mermaid
John of Hazelgreen
[The Brown Girl]
[The Trooper and Maid]

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 02:59 PM

John, In the 18th century most of the better off in Britain were into theatrical and pleasure garden songs and songs we wouldn't really recognise as folksong nowadays. The Jefferson books are really of this type. Culture in America at that time more or less, as you would expect, mirrored that in Britain. Whilst possibly in the 16th and 17th centuries there was some interest in the ballads, by the 18th century they were the province of antiquarians and those much further down the social scale. What survived by then was more the province of old nurses and the poorer tradespeople, those who couldn't afford to buy the current sheet music and go to the theatre. This is one reason why the likes of Dibdin's prolific output didn't survive in oral tradition, and of course the nature of the material. If you trawl through 18thc collections you have to put up with 99% flowery poetic mush before you come across the 1% that looks remotely like folksong, but they are there and it is worthwhile if you have the patience.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 04:41 PM

We aren't the 99? Ha! And I'm glad to know where antiquarians stand on the social scale, too.

Thanks, Steve. This is a most helpful note. I'm not surprised about this. And so, what's the best way to get to those old nurses and poorer tradespeople of the 18th century? And which collections most reflect their world?

I have already trawled a bit through some of that flowery mush and would like to avoid it as much as possible. How do we find that 1%?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 05:57 PM

I'm afraid on the whole the only people with literacy showing any interest were the antiquarians. Unfortunately they were also poets by and large and couldn't resist tampering and imitating. As I said there are no shortcuts I know of. Get in there and sift. We've probably covered the obvious exceptions in Huntington, Thomson etc.

Another possible source where you will find very relevant material is the JAFL and similar regional publications.

People like Norm Cohen, Ed Cray, John Grant and Jonathan have already done a lot of the groundwork. You could save yourself a lot of time by consulting them.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 08:55 AM

Mick Pearce kindly sent me the info from Roud on Child materials from 1946 to 1986. As near as I can tell, there were only two additions to Child ballads discovered in America in oral tradition since Coffin/deV. Renwick in 1963. Both are Robin Hood ballads, #122 and #136:

ROBIN HOOD AND THE BUTCHER (Child 122 Roud 3980)
Book
Wolfe, Folk Songs of Middle Tennessee (1997) pp.23-24
Roake, Herbert
USA : Tennessee : Clarksville
1950 (19 Dec)
Boswell, George

MY NAME IS ALLAN-A-DALE (Child 138 Roud 3298) {"Robin Hood's Delight"}
Book
Roberts & Agey, In the Pine (1978) pp.65-66
Whitaker, Sam
USA : Tennessee : Oak Ridge
1957
Tompkins, Katherine

I have also taken a quick look at Richie's site and did not discover any additional information at this time. Richie, please correct me if I am wrong. I was getting pretty cross-eyed at that point!

I also looked at some Broadsides on the Bodleian site. I checked from 1750 to 1780. I found five copies of "Lord Thomas and Fair Elinor", one of "The Famous Flower of Serving Men", two of "The Hunting of the Cheviot" and one of "Queen Eleanor's Confession", and I think one of "The Jolly Beggar". The dates were uncertain on some of them. This was not a comprehensive survey of the 18th century Broadsides at the Bodleian. There may be a larger number prior to 1750. And I don't know about the end of the century.   There were not as many as I had expected in the middle.

I am beginning to get a very rough sense of the situation in England and Scotland in the 1700s, as Steve sums it up: " by the 18th century they were the province of antiquarians and those much further down the social scale. What survived by then was more the province of old nurses and the poorer tradespeople, those who couldn't afford to buy the current sheet music and go to the theatre." The question is whether the antiquarians were really tapping into the oral tradition. Until I can get some sense of the extent of the oral tradition in the 18th century, I don't think it will be possible to have any sense of what could have "come over here."

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 10:51 AM

John
As others will tell you I am at the extreme end of scepticism when it comes to the early collectors. At one end are those that believe all of the ballads came from oral tradition and at the other, like me, there are those that believe that there was a great amount of rewriting going on and mixing and matching. The truth must lie somewhere in between. The thing is no-one can prove it either way. I have been studying closely the Child ballads, broadsides and oral tradition for more than 40 years now; on the other hand there are academics with at least the same amount of study and who are more highly qualified who take the opposite stance to me. All I can say is that most collections exist in manuscript form and give details of the informants. With these we have really to take the collector's word, people like Ritson and Motherwell, although Motherwell admitted to some adulteration in his early publications. The likes of Buchan and Scott we just cannot trust(IMHO)

As for American versions, as I said before, the British ballads must have come across in the heads of those migrants originally and the majority must be genuine. There is no reason why even the earliest settlers wouldn't have brought their ballads with them. I would just avoid Niles and Reed-Smith, but this is only MY opinion. There are also those that are so close to the British versions that they must have come from books, possibly even Child itself.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 11:33 AM

Steve, I appreciate your comments and your experience and always have a good deal of respect for a healthy skepticism. I, too, suspect that it was very hard for most "collectors" to resist the temptation to "polish and improve", whether they were in the 16th century or the 20th century. I doubt whether the "improved versions" went back into the oral tradition [except perhaps in the 20th century when a collector might have been a performer as well]. They are probably what got printed for the scholars' frustration. At this point I am primarily interested in any hints about something being actually sung in the 18th century. I am more focused on the fact that a certain ballad was mentioned as "coming from the singing of so and so" than on the actual text of that ballad. I am looking for "living proof" so to speak. I do recognize that even with this, we have only the "collector's word".

I have gone back over my 18th century survey from Child and pulled out all of the references that I can see to something that looks like "oral tradition". However, I quickly discovered that many if not most of them referred to "recitations". Does this always mean that they were "spoken" as opposed to being sung? Here is what I found, other than Herd, Percy, & Mrs. Brown, to start with:

BURD ELLEN AND YOUNG TAMLANE
Maidment's North Countrie Garland, 1824, p. 21. Communicated by R. Pitcairn, "from the recitation of a female relative, who had heard it frequently sung in her childhood," about sixty years before the above date. [1764]

CAPTAIN WEDDERBURN'S COURTSHIP—B
Kinloch MSS, I, 83, from Mary Barr's recitation. b. Lord Roslin's Daughter's Garland. c. Buchan's MSS, II, 34. d. Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 159. e. Harris MS., fol. 19 b, No 14, from Mrs Harris's recitation. f. Notes and Queries, 2d S., IV, 170, "as sung among the peasantry of the Mearns," 1857. [from Child: "Jamieson writes to the Scots Magazine, 1803, p. 701: " Of this ballad I have got one whle copy and part of another, and I remember a good deal of it as I have heard it sung in Morayshire when I was a child."]

SIR PATRICK SPENS—H
Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, III, 64, ed. 1803; I, 299, ed. 1833; "taken from two MS. copies, collated with several verses recited by the editor's friend, Robert Hamilton, Esq., Advocate." [Child says: "...H, was made up from two versions, the better of which was G, and five stanzas, 16-20, recited by Mr Hamilton, sheriff of Lanarkshire. Mr Hamilton is said to have got his fragment "from an old nurse, a retainer of the Gilkerscleugh family," when himself a boy, about the middle of the last century."]

SIR ALDINGAR—B
Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, III, 51, 1803. Communicated to Scott by K. Williamson Burnet, of Monboddo, as written down from the recitation of an old woman, long in the service of the Arbuthnot family.

FAIR ANNIE—A
Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, II, 102, 1802, chiefly from the recitation of an old woman residing near Kirkhill, in West Lothian.

WILLIE AND LADY MAISRY—A
Motherwell's MS., p. 498; Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 370. From the recitation of Mrs Notman, then far advanced in years, with whose grandmother it was a favorite: September 9, 1826.

THE WIFE OF USHER'S WELL—A
Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, II, 111, 1802, from the recitation of an old woman residing near Kirkhill, in West Lothian.

CHILD MAURICE—D
Motherwell's MS., p. 480, from the recitation of Widow Michael, a very old woman, as learned by her in Banffshire seventy years before. August, 1826. [Child's notes]
CHILD MAURICE—E
Motherwell's MS., p. 165; Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 269. From the recitation of Mrs Thomson, Kilbarchan, seventy years of age, as learned from her mother at the Water of Leven, Dumbarton, when she was ten years old. March, 1825. [Child's notes]

THE KNIGHT AND SHEPHERD'S DAUGHTER—K
Motherwell's MS., p. 226. From the recitation of Widow McCormick, Westbrae, Paisley, 1825; learned of an old woman in Dumbarton, thirty or forty years before.

KING HENRY FIFTH'S CONQUEST OF FRANCE
a-d, broadsides. a. Among Percy's papers. b. Roxburghe Ballads, III, 358. c. Jewitt's Ballads and Songs of Derbyshire, p. 1. d. Chetham's Library, Manchester, in Hales and Furnivall, Percy's Folio MS., II, 597. e. Percy papers, "taken down from memory." f. Nicolas, History of the Battle of Agincourt, 1832, Appendix, p. 78, from the recitation of a very aged person. g. The same, p. 80, source not mentioned. h. Tyler, Henry of Monmouth, II, 197, apparently from memory. i. Percy Society, XVII, Dixon, Ancient Poems, etc., p. 52, from singing. j. Skene MS., p. 42. k. Macmath MS., p. 27, from tradition. 1, m. Buchan's MSS, I, 176, II, 124, probably broadside or stall copies.

JOCK O THE SIDE—B
a. Caw's Poetical Museum, 1784, p. 145; "from an old manuscript copy." b. Campbell's Albyn's Anthology, II, 28; "taken down from the recitation of Mr Thomas Shortreed," of Jedburgh, "who learnt it from his father."

THE LOCHMABEN HARPER—C
The Edinburgh Topographical, Traditional, and Antiquarian Magazine, 1849, p. 58; communicated by W. G. "from the recitation of a friend, who learned it many years ago from her grandfather," a farmer in Wigtonshire, who died in 1813, at the age of ninety-four.

THE BONNIE HOUSE O AIRLIE—A
a. Sharpe's Ballad Book, p. 59, No 20, 1823. b. Finlay's Ballads, II, 25, 1808, from two recited copies and "one printed about twenty years ago on a single sheet." c. Skene MS., pp. 28, 54, from recitation in the north of Scotland, 1802-3. d. Campbell MSS, II, 113, probably from a stallcopy. e, f. Aberdeen stall copies, "printed for the booksellers." g. Hogg's Jacobite Relics, II, 152, No 76, "Cromek and a street ballad collated, 1821." h. Kinloch MSS, VI, 5, one stanza, taken down from an old woman's recitation by J. Robertson.   ["The earliest copy of this ballad hitherto found is a broadside of about 1790...."]

JAMIE DOUGLAS—J
Motherwell's MS., p. 299; from the recitation of Rebecca Dunse, a native of Galloway, 4 May, 1825. "A song of her mother's, an old woman."

THE LAIRD O DRUM—B
Skene MS., p. 78; taken down from recitation in the north of Scotland, 1802-3. [see Herd 1776, in Appendix]

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 11:59 AM

One more reference about "recitation":

THE THREE RAVENS
a version from E. Peacock, Lincolnshire, "whose father, born in 1793, heard it as a boy at harvest suppers and sheep-shearings, and took down a copy from the recitation of Harry Richard, a laborer, who could not read and had leart it 'from his fore-elders.'
--
And here are the references to ballads actually being sung from the 18th century survey (other than Herd, Percy, and Mrs. Brown):

CHILD MAURICE—B
Motherwell's MS., p. 255; Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 282. From the singing of Widow McCormick, Paisley, January 19, 1825. Learned by her of an old woman in Dumbarton: Motherwell's Note Book, fol. 4.

CHILD MAURICE—C
Motherwell's MS., p. 510, from the singing of Mrs Storie, wife of William Storie, laborer, Lochwinnoch. A song of Mrs Storie's grandmother. [See Child's end notes for this ballad]

LAMKIN—F
a. Notes and Queries, Second Series, II, 324, as sung by a nurse nearly a century ago [1856] in Northumberland. b. Notes and Queries, Fourth Series, II, p. 281, from Northamptonshire, communicated by Mr B. H. Cowper.

THE GYPSY LADDIE—K
a. From Mrs Helena Titus Brown of New York. b. From Miss Emma A. Clinch of New York. Derived, 1820, or a little later, a directly, b indirectly, from the singing of Miss Phœbe Wood, Huntington, Long Island, and perhaps learned from English soldiers there stationed during the Revolutionary war.

BESSY BELL AND MARY GRAY
Sharpe's Ballad Book, 1823, p. 62. b. Lyle's Ancient Ballads and Songs, 1827, p. 160, "collated from the singing of two aged persons, one of them a native of Perthshire." c. Scott's Minstrelsy, 1833, I, 45, two stanzas.

CHARLIE MAC PHERSON—A
Harris MS., fol. 23 b; from Mrs Harris's singing.

THE TWA SISTERS
Anna Seward to Walter Scott - a version of "Binnorie" "I first heard sung, with farcial grimace, in my infancy [born 1747], ..."

YOUNG BEICHAN
from Mrs Christiana Greenwood, London, to Scott, 1806, "as heard by her in her youth at Longnewton, near Jedburgh, "where most of the old women could sing it."

JOHN THOMSON AND THE TURK—B
Leyden's Glossary to The Complaynt of Scotland, p. 371. ["Leyden (1801) says that he had "heard the whole song when very young."]?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 02:02 PM

John,
Recitation of the ballads as you have demonstrated here was quite common, particularly it would seem in Scotland. Some of the most prolific sources were reciters, even as late as the early 1900s when Bell Robertson delivered up to Gavin Greig her large repertoire without singing a note. She had learned many of her ballads in her youth from family singers.

Edward Peacock as mentioned in the note to The Three Ravens was a well-known Lincolnshire folklorist as were others in his family. They made frequent contributions to Notes and Queries in the late 19th century and their work is preserved in local museums and in the work of later folklorists. Ruairidh Greig who posts here occasionally would be able to put more flesh on the bones as he's from that neck of the woods.

Some of these ballads above were widely printed as stall copies and it would be a surprise if they hadn't turned up in oral tradition.
Young Beichan, Gypsy laddie, Bessy Bell, Bonny House o Airly, King Henry V, Kt & Shepherd's Daughter, Capt Wedderburn etc.

You'd be surprised how quickly literary or rewritten ballads can enter oral tradition, even in more recent times. Some of Buchan's pieces in Child for instance have been found in oral tradition locally in quite different versions. In the 19th century a German ballad was translated into French and some time later was retranslated into Portuguese. Only about 20 years later it was found very healthily embedded in oral tradition in Brazil. Scott's poetic adaptation of John of Hazelgreen occurs in oral tradition on both sides of the pond still sung to its 19th century tune.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 05:45 PM

Here is an "Index to the Known Oral Sources of the Child Collection" by Kenneth Thigpen, Jr. at the Folklore Institute, Indiana University. Unfortunately, he does not give any dates, nor does he identify who benefited from these sources. One will have to go back to Child again and sort it out from the numbers (Argh!) I do recognize a few of the names now. By "oral" he means either recited or sung, by an individual, mentioned by Child. Here is the link:

https://scholarworks.iu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/2022/1195/5(2)%2055-69.pdf?sequence=1

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 07:57 PM

John,
Regarding Mrs Brown there is a new book out comparing all 5 manuscripts for the first time and looking at her background, which would throw up some interesting insights. I haven't got a copy yet.

Also if you haven't read it yet I strongly recommend Mary Ellen Brown's book 'Child's Unfinished Masterpiece' which includes Child's correspondence with his Scottish collectors and informants and gives some insight into his changing feelings about the authenticity of some of the ballads.

I'm currently transcribing the Peter Buchan Mss in the British Library which are very illuminating. Many of the ballads are straight off stall copies, others heavily tampered with, but there are some great earliest examples of well-known folk songs.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 06:55 AM

Steve, thanks for the references. I may get educated on some of this yet! This is all very complicated and fascinating. For now I'm going to try to stay focused on 18th century America, but I don't feel like I've quite arrived there yet. Soon, I hope. It must be exciting to get to work with the original materials.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 08:17 AM

Hope you don't mind an unrelated query
50 Child ballads have been recorded in Ireland since the middle of the last century (lists available on request)
I am trying to continue that list (compiled by Tom Munnelly) with additions of those having connections with Ireland, though not necessarily having been found here.
For instance, the Queen Eleanor's Confession (Child 156) included in 'British Ballads from Maine' comes with the note "MRS. FEED W. MORSE of Islesford who has lived in this country for many years, distinctly remembers hearing this song sung in her childhood in Ireland by "Old Andy," the beggar who used to come to her grandfather's house, and she learned it from him just as it is given in Child A. She says that her grandfather, a Roman Catholic, was provoked                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       because the song says that two friars heard a confession, which made him call the song foolish, and remark, "That's what the Protestants of England used to do." Inasmuch as Mrs. Morse knew every word just as given in Child A, this text is here reproduced."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 08:56 AM

Jim,
Welcome!
I'm presuming your interesting query is asking for further Irish versions. A couple of suggestions, as most of us don't know what's on Tom's list we don't know what you've already got, so posting the list of what you've got would be helpful. Also it would attract more of the right people if it had its own thread as people dipping into this thread will mainly be interested in what it says on the label.

As at least half the Child ballads seem to have originated in Scotland, or have survived there in a healthier state, my own logic tells me that most of those found in Ireland came across with the waves of Scottish settlers in N Ireland, and then having been settled there for several generations many emigrated to America. I think it was Jonathan who suggested that most of the Child ballads found in N E America stem from these Scottish and Irish emigrants. As far as I can think at the moment no Child Ballads originated in Ireland, though I can think of several N Irish ballads that have every bit of as much history as some of those later Child Ballads.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 09:23 AM

Hi Steve,
Will happily supply a list of those already noted (pm an e-mail address), but I am not looking for versions recorded in Ireland - I can get those for myself, and Tom's list is pretty comprehensive as to which ballads have been recovered so far.
I am looking for those either learned in Ireland or said to have been heard there but discovered elsewhere (U.S., Canada, Australia etc) - as in the example I gave from Maine.
Would be grateful to receive any quotes such as with the Maine example.
Many thanks,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 09:42 AM

By the way, as with other aspects of ballad transmission - their movement is a little more complex than just the Northern Ireland/ Scotland route.
Probably the most popular ballads sung around in the mid West here by source singers is The Suffolk Miracle and Lord Lovell, which, as far as I know, have not turned up in the North.
Hugh Shields once wrote a fascinating article on the transmission of Lord Gregory, also not found in the North (as far as I know).
Just before we came to live here 13 years ago we heard Peter Cook give a talk in Aberdeen on the influence in the other direction - from Ireland to Aberdeenshire - fascinating.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 04:34 PM

Jim
Absolutely, I was just generalising, and there are bound to be English ballads passed on through the broadside tradition like the ones you mention. The influence of Irish ballads in Scotland is well documented but I'm not aware that it includes any Child Ballads. The Glasgow Poet's Box to quote one source printed many Irish ballads.

Regarding ballads printed in Ireland, there are lots of copies in the BL. Goggin of Limerick (18thc) springs to mind and of course Haly in Cork, and Brereton and Birmingham in Dublin reprinted mountains of stuff in the 19thc some of it Child Ballads.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 07:51 PM

I have made some significant revisions and re-organizations of my survey materials. First of all I took the list from Coffin/deV. Renwick (1963) of all of the Child Ballads that had been found in America up to that point, with the two additions from Roud (thru 1986} as my template. I edited this list in a few places deleting examples that Coffin thought were highly unlikely, or had been learned from a book, or were extremely fragmentary.

I then went to my survey of 18th century documentation for the Child Ballads and I tried to put all of these I could find onto Coffin's list. But I did this using Thigpen's list of source singers/recitiers. This was a complicated process and forced me to consider the collections from the first 25 years or so of the 19th century from people like Scot and Motherwell, etc. But as many of you already know, that is where a lot of the "oral tradition" is to be found. I have put question marks where I could not find anything that would definitively place the source within the 18th century.

I will now publish these revisions in five separate posts.

Part I

18th Century Documentation from England & Scotland for Child Ballads Found in America

{1}RIDDLES WISELY EXPOUNDED—A
d. Pills to Purge Melancholy, iv, 130, ed. 1719.
RIDDLES WISELY EXPOUNDED—C
Motherwell's MS., p. 647. From the recitation of Mrs Storie.

{2}THE ELFIN KNIGHT—A
A broadside in black letter, "printed, I suppose," says Pinkerton, "about 1670," bound up with five other pieces at the end of a copy of Blind Harry's 'Wallace,' Edin. 1673, in the Pepysian Library.
THE ELFIN KNIGHT—C
Kinloch's A. S. Ballads, p. 145. From the recitation of M. Kinnear, a native of Mearnsshire, 23 Aug., 1826. [?]
THE ELFIN KNIGHT—I
Motherwell's MS., p. 103. From the recitation of John McWhinnie, collier, Newtown Green, Ayr.
THE ELFIN KNIGHT—J
Communicated by Rev. F. D. Huntington, Bishop of Western New York, as sung to him by his father in 1828, at Hadley, Mass.; derived from a rough, roystering "character" in the town.

{4}LADY ISABEL AND THE ELF-KNIGHT—G
British Museum, MS. Addit. 20094. Communicated to Mr T. Crofton Croker in 1829, as remembered by Mr W. Pigott Rogers, and believed by Mr Rogers to have been learned by him from an Irish nursery-maid.

{7}EARL BRAND—C
Motherwell's MS., p. 502. From the recitation of Mrs Notman.

{10}THE TWA SISTERS—A
A. a. Broadside "printed for Francis Grove, 1656," reprinted in Notes and Queries, 1st S., v, 591. b. Wit Restor'd, 1658, "p. 51," p. 153 of the reprint of 1817. c. Wit and Drollery, ed. 1682, p. 87, = Dryden's Miscellany, Part 3, p. 316, ed. 1716. d. Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 315.
THE TWA SISTERS—B
a. Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 39. b. Wm. Tytler's Brown MS., No 15. c. Abbotsford MS., "Scottish Songs," fol. 21. d. Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 48. [Brown 1783]
THE TWA SISTERS—F
Motherwell's MS., p. 383. From the recitation of Agnes Lyle, Kilbarchan, 27th July, 1825.
THE TWA SISTERS—G
Motherwell's MS., p. 104. From Mrs King, Kilbarchan.
THE TWA SISTERS—H
Motherwell's MS., p. 147. From I. Goldie, March, 1825. [?]
THE TWA SISTERS—I
Kinloch MSS, v, 425. From the recitation of M. Kinnear, 23d August, 1826. [?]
THE TWA SISTERS—K
Mr G. R. Kinloch's papers, Kinloch MSS, ii, 59. From Mrs Lindores. [?]
THE TWA SISTERS—L
a. From oral tradition, Notes and Queries, 1st S., v, 316. b. The Scouring of the White Horse, p. 161. From North Wales. Anna Seward to Walter Scott - a version of "Binnorie" "I first heard sung, with farcial grimace, in my infancy [born 1747], ..."
THE TWA SISTERS-Y
Communicated to Percy, april 7, 1770, and April 19, 1775, by the Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, near Ashford, Kent: "taken down from the mouth of the spinning-wheel, if I may be allowed the expression."

{11}THE CRUEL BROTHER—A
a. Alex. Fraser Tytler's Brown MS. b. Jamieson's Popular Ballads, i, 66, purporting to be from the recitation of Mrs Arrot of Aberbrothick.
THE CRUEL BROTHER—G
a. Herd's MSS, i, 41. b. Herd's Scottish Songs, 1776, i, 88.
THE CRUEL BROTHER—I
Kinloch's MSS, i, 27. From Mrs Bouchart, an old lady native of Forfarshire.

{12}LORD RANDAL—A
From a small manuscript volume lent me by Mr William Macmath, of Edinburgh, containing four pieces written in or about 1710, and this ballad in a later hand. Charles Mackie, August, 1808, is scratched upon the binding.
LORD RANDAL—R
Pitcairn's MSS, III, 11. "From tradition: widow Stevenson."
LORD RANDALL-S
Communicated to Percy by Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, near Ashford, Kent, April 19, 1775; taken down by a friend of Mr Parsons "from the spinning-wheel, in Suffolk."

{13}EDWARD—A
Motherwell's MS., p. 139. From Mrs King, Kilbarchan. b. Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 339.
EDWARD—B
Percy's Reliques, 1765, i, 53. Communicated by Sir David Dalrymple.

{14}BABYLON; OR, THE BONNIE BANKS O FORDIE—B
Herd's MSS, i, 38, ii, 76. b. The Scots Magazine, Oct., 1803, p. 699, communicated by Jamieson, and evidently from Herd's copy. [Child: "B a is from tradition of the latter half of the eighteenth century; the other copies from the earlier part of this."]
BABYLON; OR, THE BONNIE BANKS O FORDIE—C
Motherwell's MS., p. 172. From J. Goldie, March, 1825. [?]
BABYLON; OR, THE BONNIE BANKS O FORDIE—D
Motherwell's MS., p. 174. From the recitation of Agnes Lyle, Kilbarchan, July 27, 1825.

{17}HIND HORN—A
Motherwell's MS., p. 106. From Mrs King, Kilbarchan.
HIND HORN—C
a. Motherwell's Note-Book, p. 42: from Agnes Lyle. b. Motherwell's MS., p. 413: from the singing of Agnes Lyle, Kilbarchan, August 24, 1825.
HIND HORN—E
Motherwell's MS., p. 91. From the recitation of Mrs Wilson.
HIND HORN—G
Kinloch MSS, VII, 117. It appears to have been derived by Miss Kinnear from Christy Smith. [?]

{18}SIR LIONEL—A
Percy MS., p. 32, Hales and Furnivall, i, 75. [1765, 1794]

{20}THE CRUEL MOTHER—A
Herd's MSS, i, 132, ii, 191: Ancient and Modern Scottish Songs, 1776, ii, 237.
THE CRUEL MOTHER—B
Johnson's Museum, p. 331. b. Scott's Minstrelsy, 1803, iii, 259, preface. [Child: "Two fragments of this ballad, A, B, were printed in the last quarter of the eighteenth century;..."]
THE CRUEL MOTHER—E
a. Motherwell's MS., p. 390. b. Motherwell's Note-Book, p. 33. From the recitation of Agnes Lyle, Kilbarchan, August 24, 1825. [?]
THE CRUEL MOTHER—H
Motherwell's MS., p. 402. From Agnes Laird, Kilbarchan, August 24, 1825.
THE CRUEL MOTHER—J
Harris MS., fol. 10, "Mrs Harris and others." b. Fragment communicated by Dr T. Davidson.

{26}THE THREE RAVENS
a. Melismata. Musicall Phansies. Fitting the Court, Cittie, and Countrey Humours. London, 1611, No 22. [T. Ravenscroft.] Child says: "printed by Ritson, in his Ancient Songs, 1790,...."
THE THREE RAVENS
a version from E. Peacock, Lincolnshire, "whose father, born in 1793, heard it as a boy at harvest suppers and sheep-shearings, and took down a copy from the recitation of Harry Richard, a laborer, who cold not read and had leart it 'from his fore-elders.'
Percy MS., p. 46. Hales & Furnivall, I, 105; Madden's Syr Gawayne, p. 288; Percy's Reliques, ed. 1794, III, 350.

{37}THOMAS RYMER—A
Alexander Fraser Tytler's Brown MS., No 1: Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 7. Mrs. Brown
THOMAS RYMER—C
Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, II, 251, ed. 1802. [Child says: "A is one of the nine ballads transmitted to Alexander Fraser Tytler by Mrs Brown in April, 1800, as written down from her recollection."]


{38}THE WEE WEE MAN—A
Herd's MSS, I, 153, Herd's Ancient and Modern Scottish Songs, 1776, I, 95.
THE WEE WEE MAN—E
a. Motherwell's Note-Book, fol. 40, "from Agnes Lyle;" Motherwell's MS., p. 195, "from the recitation of Agnes Laird, Kilbarchan." b. Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 343.
THE WEE WEE MAN—F
Motherwell's MS., p. 68, "from the recitation of Mrs Wilson, of the Renfrewshire Tontine; now of the Caledonian Hotel, Inverness."

{42}CLERK COLVILL—A
From a transcript from William Tytler's Brown MS. Mrs. Brown
CLERK COLVILL—B
Herd's Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 302: ed. 1776, I, 161.

{45}KING JOHN AND THE BISHOP—A
Percy MS., p. 184. Hales and Furnivall, I, 508.
KING JOHN AND THE BISHOP—B
Broadside, printed for P. Brooksby, at the Golden Ball in Pye-corner (1672-95).
KING JOHN AND THE BISHOP - P
"was printed and sold by John White, Newcastle-upon-tyne, "circa 1777:"


{46}CAPTAIN WEDDERBURN'S COURTSHIP—A
a. Herd's MS., I, 161. b. The same, II, 100.
CAPTAIN WEDDERBURN'S COURTSHIP—B
Kinloch MSS, I, 83, from Mary Barr's recitation. b. Lord Roslin's Daughter's Garland. c. Buchan's MSS, II, 34. d. Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 159. e. Harris MS., fol. 19 b, No 14, from Mrs Harris's recitation. f. Notes and Queries, 2d S., IV, 170, "as sung among the peasantry of the Mearns," 1857. [from Child: "Jamieson writes to the Scots Magazine, 1803, p. 701: " Of this ballad I have got one whole copy and part of another, and I remember a good deal of it as I have heard it sung in Morayshire when I was a child."]

{49}THE TWA BROTHERS—A
Sharpe's Ballad Book, p. 56, No 19. [from Elizabeth Kerry, 1823 ?]
THE TWA BROTHERS—B
Motherwell's MS., p. 259. From Widow McCormick, January 19, 1825.[?]

{51}LIZIE WAN—A
Herd's MSS, I, 151; stanzas 1-6, II, p. 78. Herd's Scottish Songs, 1776, I, 91.
LIZIE WAN—B
Motherwell's MS., p. 398. From the recitation of Mrs Storie, Lochwinnich.

{52}THE KING'S DOCHTER LADY JEAN—A
a. Motherwell's MS., p. 657. From the recitation of Mrs Storie, Lochwinnich. b. Motherwell's Minstrelsy, Appendix, p. xxi, No XXIII, one stanza.

{53}YOUNG BEICHAN—A
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 13. [Child says: "Mr. Macmath has ascertained that Mrs Brown was born in 1747. She learned most of her ballads before she was twelve years old, or before 1759. 1783, or a little earlier, is the date when these copies were taken down from her singing or recitation."]
YOUNG BEICHAN—B
Glenriddell MSS, XI, 80. [1791]
YOUNG BEICHAN—C
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 11, [c. 1783] b. Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 127.
YOUNG BEICHAN—D
"The Old Lady's Collection," from which it was copied by Skene, No. 14.
YOUNG BEICHAN—F
Pitcairn's MSS, III, 159, 1817-25. From the recitation of Widow Stevenson, aged seventy-three: "East Country."
YOUNG BEICHAN—I
Communicated by Mr David Louden, as recited by Mrs Dodds, Morham, Haddington, the reciter being above seventy in 1873. [?]
YOUNG BEICHAN
from Mrs Christiana Greenwood, London, to Scott, 1806, "as heard by her in her youth at Longnewton, near Jedburgh, "where most of the old women could sing it."

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 07:55 PM

Part 2

{54}THE CHERRY-TREE CAROL—B
Husk, Songs of the Nativity, p. 59, from a Worcester broadside of the last century. b. Hone's Ancient Mysteries, p. 90, from various copies. c. Sylvester, A Garland of Christmas Carols, p. 45. d. Birmingham chap-book, of about 1843, in B. Harris Cowper's Apocryphal Gospels, p. xxxviii.

{56}DIVES AND LAZARUS—A
a. Sylvester, A Garland of Christmas Carols, p. 50, from an old Birmingham broadside. b. Husk, Songs of the Nativity, p. 94, from a Worcestershire broadside of the last century.

{58}SIR PATRICK SPENS—A
a. Percy's Reliques, 1765, I, 71: "given from two MS. copies, transmitted from Scotland." b. Herd's Scots Songs, 1769, p. 243.
SIR PATRICK SPENS—B
Herd's MSS., II, 27, I, 49.
SIR PATRICK SPENS—C
Motherwell's MS., p. 493, "from the recitation of --- Buchanan, alias Mrs Notman, 9 September, 1826."
SIR PATRICK SPENS—F
Motherwell's MS., p. 153, from the recitation of Mrs Thomson. [?]
SIR PATRICK SPENS—H
Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, III, 64, ed. 1803; I, 299, ed. 1833; "taken from two MS. copies, collated with several verses recited by the editor's friend, Robert Hamilton, Esq., Advocate." [Child says: "...H, was made up from two versions, the better of which was G, and five stanzas, 16-20, recited by Mr Hamilton, sheriff of Lanarkshire. Mr Hamilton is said to have got his fragment "from an old nurse, a retainer of the Gilkerscleugh family," when himself a boy, about the middle of the last century."]
SIR PATRICK SPENS—J
Miss Harris's MS., fol. 4, from the singing of her mother.
SIR PATRICK SPENS—L
Motherwell's Note-Book, p. 6, Motherwell's MS., p. 156, from Mrs Gentles, Paisley, February 1825. [?]
SIR PATRICK SPENS—O
Gibb MS., p. 63. [?]

{62}FAIR ANNIE—A
Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, II, 102, 1802, chiefly from the recitation of an old woman residing near Kirkhill, in West Lothian.
FAIR ANNIE—C
Motherwell's manuscript, p. 351, from the recitation of Janet Holmes, an old woman in Kilbarchan, who derived the ballad from her mother; July 18, 1825.
FAIR ANNIE—D
Herd, The Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 307.
FAIR ANNIE—E
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 20; Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 371. [1783 from Mrs. Brown]
FAIR ANNIE—F
Motherwell's MS., p. 385; Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 327. From the recitation of Mrs Rule, Paisley, August 16, 1825. [?]

{63}CHILD WATERS—A
Percy MS., p. 274; Hales and Furnivall, II, 269.
CHILD WATERS—B
a. Jamieson's Brown MS., fol. 22, taken down from Mrs Brown's recitation before 1783. b. A. Fraser Tytler's Brown MS., No 9, as recited by Mrs Brown in 1800.
CHILD WATERS—E
Harris MS., No 8, fol. 12 b: originally from Jannie Scott, an old nurse in Perthshire, about 1790.
CHILD WATERS—K
From "Old Lady's Collection" of Northern Scotland

{65}LADY MAISRY—A
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 24. From Mrs. Brown
LADY MAISRY—E
Motherwell's MS., p. 1, from the recitation of Mrs Thomson, Kilbarchan, February 25, 1825; Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 234.
LADY MAISRY—I
a. Motherwell's MS., p. 235; Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 221. b. Motherwell's MS., p. 179, from Mrs Thomson, of Kilbarchan. c. Motherwell's MS., p. 181, from Mrs McLean, of Glasgow. [?]
LADY MAISRY—J
"Scotch Ballads, Materials for Border Minstrelsy," No 71, MS. of Thomas Wilkie, p. 71, Abbotsford. "From the recitation of Janet Scott, Bowden, who sung a dysmal air, as she called it, to the words."
LADY MAISRY—K
"Scotch Ballads, Materials for Border Minstrelsy," No 22 f; in the handwriting of William Laidlaw. "From Jean Scott."

{68}YOUNG HUNTING—A
a. Herd's MSS, I, 182; b. the same, II, 67.
YOUNG HUNTING—C
Harris MS., fol. 8, from Mrs Harris, Perthshire. [68 C, b, fr. Miss Bower]
YOUNG HUNTING—D
Motherwell's MS., p. 377; from Agnes Lyle, Kilbarchan.
YOUNG HUNTING—E
Scott's Minstrelsy, III, 265, 1803, communicated by James Hogg, from the recitation of his mother (Motherwell).
YOUNG HUNTING—F
a. Motherwell's MS., p. 61, from the recitation of Miss Stevenson of Glasgow, January 22, 1825; Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 218. b. Motherwell's Minstrelsy, Appendix, p. xvii, VIII, one stanza.
YOUNG HUNTING—G
Herd's MSS, I, 34; Herd's Scottish Songs, 1776, I, 148.
YOUNG HUNTING—J
Scott's Minstrelsy, II, 42, 1802, and III, 184, 1833, from Herd's copies (A, G), and from tradition.

{73}LORD THOMAS AND FAIR ANNET—A
Percy's Reliques, 1765, II, 293, "given, with some corrections, from a MS. copy transmitted from Scotland."
LORD THOMAS AND FAIR ANNET—B
Kinloch MSS, I, 1, from the recitation of Mary Barr, Lesmahago.
LORD THOMAS AND FAIR ANNET—C
Motherwell's MS., p. 157, from the recitation of Agnes Laird, Kilbarchan, 1825. [?]
LORD THOMAS AND FAIR ANNET—D
a. Pepys Ballads, III, 316, No 312. b. A Collection of Old Ballads, I, 249, 1723. c. Ritson, Select Collection of English Songs, II, 187, 1783. d. Buchan's Gleanings, p. 86. e, f, g, h, i, recited copies. [#73 D, e, from the Widow McCormick, of Paisley, Motherwell's MSS, 1825]
LORD THOMAS AND FAIR ANNET—G
Skene MS., p. 104; ["Old Lady's Collection"] northeast of Scotland, 1802-03.
LORD THOMAS AND FAIR ANNET—I
"Scotch Ballads, Materials for Border Minstrelsy," No 22 h; in the handwriting of William Laidlaw. From Jean Scott.

{74}FAIR MARGARET AND SWEET WILLIAM—A
Douce Ballads, I, fol. 72. b. Ritson, A Select Collection of English Songs, 1783, II, 190. c. Percy's Reliques, 1765, III, 121. d. Percy's Reliques, 1767, III, 119.
FAIR MARGARET AND SWEET WILLIAM—B
Communicated to Percy by the Dean of Derry, as written down from memory by his mother, Mrs Bernard; February, 1776.
FAIR MARGARET AND SWEET WILLIAM—C
Communicated to Percy by Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, April 7, 1770.
FAIR MARGARET AND SWEET WILLIAM
"Communicated by Miss Mary E. Burleigh, of Worcester MA, and deriaved, through a relative, from her great-grandmother, who had heard the ballad sung at gatherings of young people in Webster, MA, not long after 1820."

{75}LORD LOVEL—A
Percy Papers, communicated by the Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, from singing; May 22, 1770, and April 19, 1775.
LORD LOVEL—G
Harris MS., fol. 28 b, from the recitation of Mrs Molison, Dunlappie.

{76}THE LASS OF ROCH ROYAL—A
Cochrane's Songbook, p. 151, No 114.
THE LASS OF ROCH ROYAL—B
Herd's MS, I, 144; II, 60, the first ten lines; Herd's Scottish Songs, 1776, I, 149.
THE LASS OF ROCH ROYAL—C
Pitcairn's MSS, III, 1, from the singing of Widow Stevenson.
THE LASS OF ROCH ROYAL—D
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 27; Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 36. [From Mrs. Brown]
THE LASS OF ROCH ROYAL—E
a. Alexander Fraser Tytler's Brown MS., No 2, written down from Mrs Brown's recitation in 1800. b. Scott's Minstrelsy, II, 49, 1802.
THE LASS OF ROCH ROYAL—F
Herd MS., I, 31, II, 65.
THE LASS OF ROCH ROYAL/"THE LASS OF OCRAM"
"There is a version of this ballad in the Roxburghe collection, III, 488, a folio slip without imprint, dated in the Museum Catalogue 1740....Mr Ebsworth in the Roxburghe Ballads, VI 609...puts the date of issue circa 1765"

{77}SWEET WILLIAM'S GHOST—A
Ramsay's Tea Table Miscellany, "4th volume, 1740;" here from the London edition of 1763, p. 324.
SWEET WILLIAM'S GHOST—B
Herd's MSS, I, 177, II, 49, stanzas 27 ff.
SWEET WILLIAM'S GHOST—C
Motherwell's MS., p. 262, Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 186, from the recitation of Mrs McCormick, and learned by her in Dumbarton, from an old woman, thirty years before: January 19, 1825.

{79}THE WIFE OF USHER'S WELL—B
Kinloch MSS, V, 403, stanzas 18-23. In the handwriting of James Chambers, as sung to his maternal grandmother, Janet Grieve, seventy years before, by an old woman, a Miss Ann Gray, of the Neidpath Castle, Peeblesshire: January 1, 1829. [?]   

{81}LITTLE MUSGRAVE AND LADY BARNARD—A
Wit Restord, 1658, in the reprint 'Facetiæ,' London, 1817, I, 293. b. Wit and Drollery, 1682, p. 81.
LITTLE MUSGRAVE AND LADY BARNARD—B
Percy MS., p. 53, Hales and Furnivall, I, 119.
LITTLE MUSGRAVE AND LADY BARNARD—C
a. Pepys Ballads, I, 364, No 187. b. Pepys Ballads, III, 314, No 310. c. Roxburghe Ballads, III, 146. d. Roxburge Ballads, III, 340. e. Bagford Ballads, I, 36.
LITTLE MUSGRAVE AND LADY BARNARD—G
Motherwell's MS., p. 643, from the recitation of Mrs McConechie, Kilmarnock. [?]
LITTLE MUSGRAVE AND LADY BARNARD—I
Motherwell's MS., p. 305, from the recitation of Rebecca Dunse, 4th May, 1825: one of her mother's songs, an old woman.
LITTLE MUSGRAVE AND LADY BARNARD—J
Motherwell's MS., p. 371, from the recitation of Agnes Lyle, Kilbarchan.

{83}CHILD MAURICE—A
Percy MS., p. 346; Hales and Furnivall, II, 502.
CHILD MAURICE—B
Motherwell's MS., p. 255; Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 282. From the singing of Widow McCormick, Paisley, January 19, 1825. Learned by her of an old woman in Dumbarton: Motherwell's Note Book, fol. 4.
CHILD MAURICE—C
Motherwell's MS., p. 510, from the singing of Mrs Storie, wife of William Storie, laborer, Lochwinnoch. A song of Mrs Storie's grandmother. [See Child's end notes for this ballad]
CHILD MAURICE—D
Motherwell's MS., p. 480, from the recitation of Widow Michael, a very old woman, as learned by her in Banffshire seventy years before. August, 1826. [Child's notes]
CHILD MAURICE—E
Motherwell's MS., p. 165; Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 269. From the recitation of Mrs Thomson, Kilbarchan, seventy years of age, as learned from her mother at the Water of Leven, Dumbarton, when she was ten years old. March, 1825. [Child's notes]
CHILD MAURICE—F
Percy's Reliques, III, 93, 1765. b. Letter of T. Gray to Mason, June, 1757 (?): Gray's Works, ed. Gosse, II, 316.
?CHILD MAURICE—G
Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 18; Jamieson, in The Scots Magazine, 1803, LXV, 698, stanzas 1, 3.

{84}BONNY BARBARA ALLAN—A
a. The Tea-Table Miscellany, IV, 46, ed. 1740; here from the London edition of 1763, p. 343. b. Percy's Reliques, III, 131, ed. 1765, "with a few conjectural emendations from a written copy."
BONNY BARBARA ALLAN—B
a. Roxburghe Ballads, II, 25; reprint of the Ballad Society, III, 433. b. Roxburghe Ballads, III, 522. c. A broadside formerly belonging to Bishop Percy. d. Percy's Reliques, 1765, III, 125.
BONNY BARBARA ALLAN—C
Motherwell's MS., p. 288; from Mrs Duff, Kilbirnie, February 9, 1825. [?]

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 07:58 PM

Part 3

{87}PRINCE ROBERT—A
Scott's Minstrelsy, II, 124, ed. 1802; III, 269, ed. 1833: from the recitation of Miss Christian Rutherford.
PRINCE ROBERT—B
Motherwell's MS. p. 149,; Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 200: from the recitation of Mrs Thomson, Kilbarchan, a native of Bonhill, Dumbartonshire, aged betwixt sixty and seventy.
PRINCE ROBERT—C [?]
Motherwell's MS., p. 321, from Agnes Laird, Kilbarchan, June 21, 1825. [?]

{88}YOUNG JOHNSTONE—A
Herd's Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 305.
YOUNG JOHNSTONE—B
a. Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 193, from the recitation of Mrs Gentles, Paisley. b. Finlay's Scottish Ballads, II, 71, from two recited copies. [?]
YOUNG JOHNSTONE—C
Motherwell's MS., p. 310, from the recitation of Jeanie Nicol, May 4, 1825. [?]

{90}JELLON GRAME—A
a. A. Fraser Tytler's Brown MS., No 4. b. Scott's Minatrelsy, II, 20, 1802. [From Mrs. Brown]

{93}LAMKIN—A
Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 176, communicated by Mrs Brown.
LAMKIN—B
Motherwell's MS., p. 15; from the recitation of Mrs Thomson, Kilbarchan, February 25, 1825.
LAMKIN—C
Motherwell's MS., p. 9: from Edward King, weaver, Kilbarchan, taken from the recitation of his mother, an old woman.
LAMKIN—E
Kinloch MSS, V, 246, from Mary Barr.
LAMKIN—F
a. Notes and Queries, Second Series, II, 324, as sung by a nurse nearly a century ago [1856] in Northumberland. b. Notes and Queries, Fourth Series, II, p. 281, from Northamptonshire, communicated by Mr B. H. Cowper.
LAMKIN—I
Skene MSS, p. 75, ["Old Lady's Collection"] North of Scotland, 1802-03.
LAMKIN—K
Communicated to Percy by Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, near Ashford, Kent, April 19, 1775.
LAMKIN—P
Herd's MSS, I, 25.
Child says: "The negroes of Dumfries, Prince William County, Virginia, have this ballad, orally transmitted from the original Scottish settlers of that region, with the stanza found in F (19) and T (14):
        Mr Lammikin, Mr Lammikin,
        oh, spare me my life,
        And I'll give you my daughter Betsy,
        And she shall be your wife.
"They sang it to a monotonous measure." (Mrs. Dulany)"

{95}THE MAID FREED FROM THE GALLOWS—A
Communicated to Percy, April 7, 1770, by the Rev. P. Parsons, of Wey, from oral tradition.
THE MAID FREED FROM THE GALLOWS—B
Motherwell MS., p. 290, from the recitation of Widow McCormick; learned in Dumbarton.

{96}THE GAY GOSHAWK—A
Jamieson-Brown MS., No 6, pt 15. [From Mrs. Brown]
THE GAY GOSHAWK—B
Motherwell's MS., p. 230: from the recitation of Mrs Bell, of Paisley, and of Miss Montgomerie, of Edinburgh, her sister.
THE GAY GOSHAWK—D
Motherwell's Note-Book, pp 27-30, Motherwell's MS., pp 415-17; from Agnes Laird, Kilbarchan, August 24, 1825. [?]
THE GAY GOSHAWK—E
Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, II, 7, 1802; III, 151, 1833.

{99}JOHNIE SCOT—A
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 5. [From Mrs. Brown]
JOHNIE SCOT—C
Motherwell's MS., p. 213: from the recitation of Mrs Thomson, Kilbarchan.
JOHNIE SCOT—D
Motherwell MS., p. 205: a, "words and tune from Mrs McNiccol," of Paisley, native of the parish of Houston; b, variations from "John Lindsay, cowfeeder, Wallace Street, Paisley." [?]
JOHNIE SCOT—E
Motherwell's MS., p. 113; from the recitation of T. Risk. [?]
JOHNIE SCOT—F
Motherwell's MS., p. 211; from the recitation of Agnes Laird, Kilbarchan, 21 June, 1825.
JOHNIE SCOT—G
Motherwell's Note-Book, p. 35, Motherwell MS., p. 394; from the singing of Agnes Lyle, of Kilbarchan, 24 August, 1825.

{100}WILLIE O WINSBURY—B
Herd's MSS, I, 29; II, 98.
WILLIE O WINSBURY—D
Communicated to Percy by the Rev. P. Parsons, of Wey, apparently in 1775. "This I had from the spinning-wheel."
WILLIE O WINSBURY—F
Motherwell's MS., p. 404; from the recitation of Agnes Laird, of Kilbarchan, August 24, 1825. [?]

{105}THE BAILIFF'S DAUGHTER OF ISLINGTON
Printed for P. Brooksby, Roxburghe Ballads, II, 457. b. Printed for J. Walter, Douce Ballads, II, fol. 229. c. Printed for P. Brooksby, Pepys Ballads, III, 258, No 256. d. Printed for P. Brooksby, Roxburghe Ballads, IV, 56. e. Printed for P. Brooksby, Douce Ballads, II, fol. 230. f. An Aldermary Churchyard copy.

{106}THE FAMOUS FLOWER OF SERVING-MEN
Wood, E. 25, fol. 75, Bodleian Library. b. Pepys, III, 142, No 140, Magdalen College Library, Cambridge. c. A Collection of Old Ballads, I, 216, 1723.
And a fragment from the recitation of Mrs. Barnard, the wife of the Bishop of Derry and mother of the Dean of Derry who sent it to Percy in 1776.

{110}THE KNIGHT AND SHEPHERD'S DAUGHTER—A
a. Roxburghe Ballads, III, 160, 161. b. The same, II, 30, 31. [1765]
THE KNIGHT AND SHEPHERD'S DAUGHTER—B
Kinloch MSS, V, 255, in the handwriting of Mr Kinloch. [?]
THE KNIGHT AND SHEPHERD'S DAUGHTER—C
Kinloch's MSS, VII, 69; apparently from the recitation of Mrs Charles of Torry, Aberdeen, born in Mearnshire.
THE KNIGHT AND SHEPHERD'S DAUGHTER—D
Kinloch's MSS, VII, 68; apparently from the recitation of Jenny Watson of Lanark, aged seventy-three. Only such portions of this version were preserved as differed considerably from C.
THE KNIGHT AND SHEPHERD'S DAUGHTER—E
a. Buchan's Ballads of the North of Scotland, II, 81, from Mr Nicol of Strichen, as learned in his youth from old people. b. Motherwell's MS., p. 459, derived, no doubt, from Buchan.
THE KNIGHT AND SHEPHERD'S DAUGHTER—K
Motherwell's MS., p. 226. From the recitation of Widow McCormick, Westbrae, Paisley, 1825; learned of an old woman in Dumbarton, thirty or forty years before.
THE KNIGHT AND SHEPHERD'S DAUGHTER—N
[From the "Old Lady's Collection"]

{112}THE BAFFLED KNIGHT—A
Ravenscroft's Deuteromelia, or, The Second Part of Musick's Melodie, or Melodious Musicke, etc., E 4, London, 1609. Ritson's Ancient Songs, 1790, p. 159. b. Pills to Purge Melancholy, III, 37, 1719.
THE BAFFLED KNIGHT—B
Pills to Purge Melancholy, V, 112, 1719.
THE BAFFLED KNIGHT—C
a. A Collection of Old Ballads, III, 178, 1725. b. Pepys Ballads, V, 169 ff, Nos 162-164, end of the 17th century, the first fifty stanzas. c. Douce Ballads, III, fol. 52 b, Durham: Printed and sold by I. Lane. d. Roxburghe Ballads, III, 674, 1750 (?).
THE BAFFLED KNIGHT—D
a. Herd's Ancient and Modern Scots, p. 328, 1769. b. Dixon, Ancient Poems, Ballads and Songs of the Peasantry of England, p. 123, Percy Society, vol. xvii; Bell, p. 80.
THE BAFFLED KNIGHT—E
Motherwell's MS., p. 410: from the singing of Agnes Lyle, Kilbarchan, September, 1825.
THE BAFFLED KNIGHT
The Complete Collection of Old and New English and Scotch Songs, 1735...repetitions from earlier publications;...."

{114}JOHNIE COCK—A
Communicated to Percy by Miss Fisher, of Carlisle, 1780, No 5 of MS.
JOHNIE COCK—G
Harris MS., fol. 25: from Mrs Harris's recitation.

{118}ROBIN HOOD AND GUY OF GISBORNE
Percy MS., p. 262; Hales and Furnivall, II, 227.

{120}ROBIN HOOD'S DEATH—A
Percy MS., p. 21; Hales and Furnivall, I, 53.
ROBIN HOOD'S DEATH—B
The English Archer, Paisley, printed by John Neilson for George Caldwell, Bookseller, near the Cross, 1786, p. 81, No 24. b. The English Archer, York, printed by N. Nickson, in Feasegate, n. d., p. 70.

{122}ROBIN HOOD AND THE BUTCHER—A (from Roud: Wolfe '97)
Percy MS., p. 7; Hales and Furnivall, I, 19.
ROBIN HOOD AND THE BUTCHER—B
a. Wood, 401, leaf 19 b. b. Garland of 1663, No 6. c. Garland of 1670, No 5. d. Pepys, II, 102, No 89.

{125}ROBIN HOOD AND LITTLE JOHN
A Collection of Old Ballads, 1723, I, 75. b. Aldermary Garland, by R.Marshall, n. d., No 22.

{126}ROBIN HOOD AND THE TANNER
a. Wood, 401, leaf 9 b.
b. Garland of 1663, No 10.
c. Garland of 1670, No 9.
Pepys, II, 111, No 98.
{132}THE BOLD PEDLAR AND ROBIN HOOD ?
H. Dixon, Ancient Poems, Ballads, and Songs of the Peasantry of England, p.71, Percy Society, vol. xvii, 1846.

{138}ROBIN HOOD AND ALLEN A DALE (from Roud: Roberts & Agey, '78)
a. 'Robin Hood and Allin of Dale,' Douce, II, leaf 185.
b. 'Robin Hood and Allin of Dale,' Pepys, II, 110, No 97.
c. 'Robin Hood and Allen a Dale,' Douce, III, 119 b.

{139}ROBIN HOOD'S PROGRESS TO NOTTINGHAM
a. Wood, 402, leaf 14 b. b. Wood, 401, leaf 37 b. c. Garland of 1663, No 2. d. Garland of 1670, No. 1. e. Pepys, II, 104, No 92.

{140}ROBIN HOOD RESCUING THREE SQUIRES—A
Percy MS., p.5; Hales and Furnivall, I, 13; Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 49.
ROBIN HOOD RESCUING THREE SQUIRES—B
The English Archer, Robin Hood's Garland, York, N. Nickson, n. d., p. 65. b. The English Archer, etc., Paisley, John Neilson, 1786. c. Adventures of Robin Hood, Falkirk, T. Johnston, 1808.
ROBIN HOOD RESCUING THREE SQUIRES—C
Robin Hood's Garland. a. London, printed by W. & C. Dicey, in St. Mary Aldermary Church Yard, Bow Lane, Cheapside, and sold at the Warehouse at Northampton, n. d.: p. 74, No 24. b. London, printed by L. How, in Peticoat Lane, n. d.: p. 23. c. York, T. Wilson and R. Spence, n. d.: p. 27. d. Preston, W. Sergent, n. d.: p. 62. e. London, printed and sold by J. Marshall & Co., Aldermary Church Yard, Bow Lane, n. d.: No 24. f. Wolverhampton, printed and sold by J. Smart, n. d.

{141}ROBIN HOOD RESCUING WILL STUTLY
a. Wood, 401, leaf 35 b.
b. Garland of 1663, No 7.
c. Garland of 1670, No 6.
d. Pepys, II, 106, No 93.

{155}SIR HUGH, OR, THE JEW'S DAUGHTER—A
Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 151, as taken down by the editor from Mrs Brown's recitation.
SIR HUGH, OR, THE JEW'S DAUGHTER—B
Percy's Reliques, I, 32, 1765; from a manuscript copy sent from Scotland.
SIR HUGH, OR, THE JEW'S DAUGHTER—C
Percy papers; communicated to Percy by Paton, in 1768 or 69, and derived from a friend of Paton's.
SIR HUGH, OR, THE JEW'S DAUGHTER—D
Herd's MS., I, 213; stanzas 7-10, II, 219.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 08:01 PM

Part 4

{156}QUEEN ELEANOR'S CONFESSION—A
a. A broadside, London, Printed for C. Bates, at the Sun & Bible in Gilt-spur-street, near Pye-corner, Bagford Ballads, II, No 26, 1685? b. A broadside, Printed for C. Bates, in Pye-corner, Bagford Ballads, I, No 33, 1685? c. Another copy of b, reprinted in Utterson's Little Book of Ballads, p. 22. d. A Collection of Old Ballads, 1723, I, 18.
QUEEN ELEANOR'S CONFESSION—B
Skene MS., p. 39. [From an "Old Lady's Collection"]

{157}GUDE WALLACE—A
A chap-book of Four New Songs and a Prophecy, 1745? The Scots Musical Museum, 1853, D. Laing's additions, IV, 458; Maidment, Scotish Ballads and Songs, 1859, p. 83.
GUDE WALLACE—B
Communicated to Percy by R. Lambe, of Norham, apparently in 1768.

{162}THE HUNTING OF THE CHEVIOT—A
MS. Ashmole, 48, Bodleian Library, in Skeat's Specimens of English Literature, 1394-1579, ed. 1880, p. 67. [Percy 1765]
THE HUNTING OF THE CHEVIOT—B Chevy Chase
a. Percy MS., p. 188, Hales and Furnivall, II, 7. b. Pepys Ballads, I, 92, No 45, broadside printed for M. G. c. Douce Ballads, fol. 27b, and Roxburghe Ballads, III, 66, broadside printed for F. Coles, T. Vere, and J. Wright. d. Wood's Ballads, 401, 48, broadside printed for F. Coles, T. Vere, and W. Gilbertson. e. Bagford Ballads, I, No 32, broadside printed by and for W. Onley. f. A Scottish. copy, without printer.

{164}KING HENRY FIFTH'S CONQUEST OF FRANCE
a-d, broadsides. a. Among Percy's papers. b. Roxburghe Ballads, III, 358. c. Jewitt's Ballads and Songs of Derbyshire, p. 1. d. Chetham's Library, Manchester, in Hales and Furnivall, Percy's Folio MS., II, 597. e. Percy papers, "taken down from memory." f. Nicolas, History of the Battle of Agincourt, 1832, Appendix, p. 78, from the recitation of a very aged person. g. The same, p. 80, source not mentioned. h. Tyler, Henry of Monmouth, II, 197, apparently from memory. i. Percy Society, XVII, Dixon, Ancient Poems, etc., p. 52, from singing. j. Skene MS., p. 42. k. Macmath MS., p. 27, from tradition. 1, m. Buchan's MSS, I, 176, II, 124, probably broadside or stall copies.

{167}SIR ANDREW BARTON—A
Percy MS., p. 490; Hales and Furnivall, III, 399. [Child says: "Given in Old Ballads, 1723, 159; in Percy's Reliques, 1765, II, ...Ritson's Select Colelction of English Songs, 1783, I...."]
SIR ANDREW BARTON—B
Douce Ballads, I, 18 b. b. Pepys Ballads, I, 484, No 249. c. Wood Ballads, 401, 55. d. Roxburghe Ballads, I, 2. e. Bagford Ballads, 643, m. 9 (61). f. Bagford Ballads, 643, m. 10 (77). g. Wood Ballads, 402, 37. h. Glenriddell MSS, XI, 20.

{170}THE DEATH OF QUEEN JANE—A
Communicated to Percy by the Dean of Derry, as written from memory by his mother, Mrs. Bernard, February, 1776.
THE DEATH OF QUEEN JANE—C
Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 182; "from two fragments, one transmitted from Arbroath and another from Edinburgh." b. Herd's MSS, I, 103.

{173}MARY HAMILTON—C
Motherwell's MS. p. 265; from Mrs Crum, Dumbarton, 7 April, 1825. [?]
MARY HAMILTON—D
Motherwell's MS., p. 267; from the recitation of Miss Nancy Hamilton and Mrs Gentles, January, 1825. [?]
MARY HAMILTON—F
No 12 of "The Old Lady's Collection,"
MARY HAMILTON—J
Harris MS., fol. 10 b; "Mrs Harris and others."
MARY HAMILTON—K
Motherwell's MS., p. 96; from Jean Macqueen, Largs. [?]
MARY HAMILTON—L
Motherwell's MS., p. 280; from the recitation of Mrs Trail of Paisley. [?]
MARY HAMILTON—R
Burns, in a letter to Mrs Dunlop, January 25, 1790; Currie, II, 290, 1800.
MARY HAMILTON—U
"Scotch Ballads, Materials for Border Minstrelsy," No 92, Abbotsford. Communicated to Scott, 7th January, 1804, by Rev. George Paxton, Kilmaurs, near Kilmarnock, Ayrshire (afterwards professor of divinity at Edinburgh); from the mouth of Jean Milne, his "aged mother, formerly an unwearied singer of Scotish songs."

{176}NORTHUMBERLAND BETRAYED BY DOUGLAS
Percy MS., p. 259; Hales and Furnivall, II, 217.


{178}CAPTAIN CAR, OR, EDOM O GORDON—A
Cotton MS. Vespasian, A. xxv, No 67, fol. 187 of the last quarter of the 16th century, British Museum; ritson's ancient song, 1790, p 137; ...; Furnivall, in Transactions of the New Shakspere Society, 1880-86, Appendix, p. 52.
CAPTAIN CAR, OR, EDOM O GORDON—B
Percy MS., p. 34; hales and Furnivall, I, 79.
CAPTAIN CAR, OR, EDOM O GORDON—C
Communicated to Percy by Robert Lambe, Norham, October 4, 1766, being all that a servant of Lambe's could remember.
CAPTAIN CAR, OR, EDOM O GORDON—D
Robert and Andrew Foulis, Glasgow, 1755; "as preserved in the memory of a lady."
CAPTAIN CAR, OR, EDOM O GORDON—G
Motherwell's MS., p. 543, from the recitation of May Richmond, at the Old Kirk of Loudon.
CAPTAIN CAR, OR, EDOM O GORDON—I
From "The Old Lady's Collection," No 28,

{181}THE BONNY EARL OF MURRAY—A
Ramsay's Tea-Table Miscellany, 1763, p. 356. [Percy 1765, Herd 1769, Riston 1794]

{185}DICK O THE COW
'An excelent old song cald Dick of the Cow.' Percy Papers, 1775. b. Caw's Poetical Museum, p. 22, 1784. c. Campbell, Albyn's Anthology, II, 31, 1818.

{187}JOCK O THE SIDE—A
Percy MS., p. 254; Hales and Furnivall, II, 203.
JOCK O THE SIDE—B
a. Caw's Poetical Museum, 1784, p. 145; "from an old manuscript copy." b. Campbell's Albyn's Anthology, II, 28; "taken down from the recitation of Mr Thomas Shortreed," of Jedburgh, "who learnt it from his father."
JOCK O THE SIDE—C
Percy Papers. "The imperfect copy sent me from Keelder, as collected from the memory of an old person by Mr William Hadley, in 1775."
JOCK O THE SIDE—D
Percy Papers. "These are scraps of the old song repeated to me by Mr Leadbeater, from the neighborhood of Hexham, 1774."

{188}ARCHIE O CAWFIELD—A
Communicated to Percy by Miss Fisher of Carlisle, 1780.
ARCHIE O CAWFIELD—B
a. Glenriddell MSS, XI, 14, 1791, "an old West Border ballad." b. Scott's Minstrelsy, 1833, II, 116.
ARCHIE O CAWFIELD—D
Motherwell's MS., p. 467, "received in MS. by Buchan from Mr Nicol, of Strichen, who wrote as he had learned early in life from old people:" Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 335.

{199}THE BONNIE HOUSE O AIRLIE—A
a. Sharpe's Ballad Book, p. 59, No 20, 1823 [fr. Mrs. Nairn] b. Finlay's Ballads, II, 25, 1808, from two recited copies and "one printed about twenty years ago on a single sheet." c. Skene MS., pp. 28, 54, from recitation in the north of Scotland, 1802-3 [an "Old Lady's Collection"]. d. Campbell MSS, II, 113, probably from a stallcopy. e, f. Aberdeen stall copies, "printed for the booksellers." g. Hogg's Jacobite Relics, II, 152, No 76, "Cromek and a street ballad collated, 1821." h. Kinloch MSS, VI, 5, one stanza, taken down from an old woman's recitation by J. Robertson.   ["The earliest copy of this ballad hitherto found is a broadside of about 1790...."]
THE BONNIE HOUSE O AIRLIE—C
a. Kinloch MSS, V, 205, recited by John Rae. b. Cromek's Remains of Nithsdale and Galloway Song, p. 226, 1810. c. Smith's Scottish Minstrel, II, 2. d. Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs, II, 276, "from the recitation of a relative."

{200}THE GYPSY LADDIE—A
Ramsay's Tea-Table Miscellany, vol. iv, 1740. Here from the London edition of 1763, p. 427. [Herd 1769, 1776, Pinkerton 1783, Ritson 1794]
THE GYPSY LADDIE—C
Motherwell's MS., p. 381, from the recitation of Agnes Lyle, Kilbarchan, 27 July, 1825.
THE GYPSY LADDIE—F
The Songs of England and Scotland [by P. Cunningham], London, 1835, II, 346, taken down, as current in the north of England, from the recitation of John Martin, the painter.
THE GYPSY LADDIE—G
a. A broadside in the Roxburghe Ballads, III, 685, entered in the catalogue, doubtfully, as of Newcastle upon Tyne, 1720. b. A recent stall-copy, Catnach, 2 Monmouth Court, Seven Dials.
THE GYPSY LADDIE—K
a. From Mrs Helena Titus Brown of New York. b. From Miss Emma A. Clinch of New York. Derived, 1820, or a little later, a directly, b indirectly, from the singing of Miss Phœbe Wood, Huntington, Long Island, and perhaps learned from English soldiers there stationed during the Revolutionary war.

{201}BESSY BELL AND MARY GRAY
Sharpe's Ballad Book, 1823, p. 62. b. Lyle's Ancient Ballads and Songs, 1827, p. 160, "collated from the singing of two aged persons, one of them a native of Perthshire." c. Scott's Minstrelsy, 1833, I, 45, two stanzas. [Child says: "A squib on the birth of the Chevalier St Geroge, beginning
        Bessy Bell and Mary Grey,
        Those famous bonny lasses,
shows that this little ballad, or song, was very well known in the last years of the seventeenth century. The first stanza was made by Ramsay the beginning of a song of his own, and stands thus in Ramsay's Poem, Edinburgh, 1721, p. 80:
        O Bessy Bell and Mary Gray,
        They are tw bonny lasses;
        They bigged a bower on yon Burn-brae,
        And theekd it oer wi rashes.

{204}JAMIE DOUGLAS—A
Kinloch MSS, I, 93; from the recitation of Mary Barr, Lesmahago, Lanarkshire, May, 1827, and learned by her about sixty years before from an old dey at Douglas Castle.
JAMIE DOUGLAS—C
Kinloch MSS, V, 207, I, 103; from John Rae, Lesmahago.
JAMIE DOUGLAS—E
Kinloch MSS, VII, 127; 24 April, 1826, from the recitation of Jenny Watson, Lanark, aged 73, who had it from her grandmother.
JAMIE DOUGLAS—F
Motherwell's MS, p. 507; from the recitation of old Mrs Brown [a different Mrs. Brown], residing at Linsart, parish of Lochwinnoch, September, 1826.
JAMIE DOUGLAS—H
Motherwell's MS, p. 297; from the recitation of Mrs Traill of Paisley.
JAMIE DOUGLAS—I
Motherwell's MS., p. 500; from Mrs Notman.
JAMIE DOUGLAS—J
Motherwell's MS., p. 299; from the recitation of Rebecca Dunse, a native of Galloway, 4 May, 1825. "A song of her mother's, an old woman."
JAMIE DOUGLAS—K
Motherwell's MS., p. 302; from Jean Nicol. [?]
JAMIE DOUGLAS—M
Herd's MSS, I, 54. [1776]
Also: WALY, WALY, GIN LOVE BE BONY
Ramsay's Tea-Table Miscellany, the second volume, published before 1727; here from the Dublin edition of 1729, p. 176. b. Thomson's Orpheus Caledonius, seond edition, 1733, I, 71; four stanzas in the first edition, 1725, No 34. [Percy 1765, Herd 1796]
And from the Appendix:
ARTHUR'S SEAT SHALL BE MY BED, ETC., OR, LOVE IN DESPAIR
A new song much in request, sung with its own proper tune.
Laing, Broadsides Ballads, No. 61, not dated but considered to have been printed towards the end of the seventeenth or the beginning of the eighteenth century, and probably at Edinburgh.

{208}LORD DERWENTWATER—A
Motherwell's MS., p. 331, July 19, 1825, "from the recitation of Agnes Lile, Kilbarchan, a woman verging on fifty;" learned from her father, who died fourteen years before, at the age of eighty.
LORD DERWENTWATER—G
Motherwell's MS., p. 126, from the recitation of Mrs Trail, Paisley, July 9, 1825: a song of her mother's.
LORD DERWENTWATER—J
From "The Old Lady's Collection," second part, p. 6.

{209}GEORDIE—A
Johnson's Museum, No 346, p. 357, 1792; communicated by Robert Burns.
And from Appendix:
"A lamentable new ditty, made upon the death of a worthy gentleman named George Stoole...." Roxburghe Collection, I [Ritson 1793]
GEORDIE—B
a. "Scotch Ballads, Materials for Border Minstrelsy," No 13, Abbotsford. Sent to Scott by William Laidlaw, September 11, 1802 (Letters, vol. i, No 73), as written down by Laidlaw from the recitation of Mr Bartram of Biggar. b. Variations received by Laidlaw from J. Scott.
GEORDIE—C
a. "Scotch Ballads, Materials for Border Minstrelsy," Abbotsford, No 38, MS. of Thomas Wilkie, 1813-15, p. 16; taken down from the singing of Miss Christy Robertson, Dunse. B. "Scotch Ballads," etc., No 108, in a lady's hand, and perhaps obtained directly from Miss Robertson. [?]
GEORDIE—D
"Scotch Ballads, Materials for Border Minstrelsy," No 64, MS. of Thomas Wilkie, 1813-15, p. 50, Abbotsford. "I took this down from the recitation of Janet Scott, Bowden, who sung it to a beautiful plaintive old air." [?]
GEORDIE—F
Motherwell's MS., p. 367; from the recitation of Agnes Lyle, Kilbarchan.
GEORDIE—G
Motherwell's Note Book, p. 17, p. 10; from Mrs Rule, Paisley, August 16, 1825. Apparently learned from a blind aunt, pp. 1, 3.
GEORDIE—K
Motherwell's MS., p. 370, as sung by Agnes Lyle's father.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 08:05 PM

Part 5

{210}BONNIE JAMES CAMPBELL—A
Herd's MSS, I, 40, II, 184.

{214}THE BRAES O YARROW—A
Communicated to Percy by Dr William Robertson, Principal of Edinburgh.
THE BRAES O YARROW—C
Motherwell's MS., pp. 334, 331, from the recitation of Agnes Lile, Kilbarchan, July 19, 1825; learned from her father, who died fourteen years earlier, at the age of eighty. [b.1731?]
THE BRAES O YARROW—D
Communicated to Percy by Robert Lambe, Norham, April 16, 1768.
THE BRAES O YARROW—J
Taken down from the singing of Marion Miller, in Threepwood, in the parish of Melrose. In Thomas Wilkie's handwriting, "Scotch Ballads, Materials for Border Minstrelsy," No 107, Abbotsford. Another copy in Thomas Wilkie's MS., 1813-15, p. 57, No 67 of "Scotch Ballads," etc. [?]
THE BRAES O YARROW—K
Campbell MS., I, 8; "communicated by Janet Ormstone, Innerleithen, who sung it to a beautiful old air." [?]
THE BRAES O YARROW—L
Blackwood's Magazine, CXLVII, 741, June, 1890; communicated by Professor John Veitch, as received from William Welsh, a Peeblesshire cottar and poet, born 1799, whose mother used to recite the ballad, and whose grandmother had a copy in her father's handwriting.
THE BRAES O YARROW—N
Communicated to Scott by Mrs Christiana Greenwood, London, May 27, 1806 (Letters, I, No 189); presumably learned by her at Longuewton, near Jedburgh. "Scotch Ballads, Materials for Border Minstrelsy," No 84, Abbotsford.
THE BRAES O YARROW—O
Herd's MSS, I, 35, II, 181. [Ritson 1794]

{215}RARE WILLIE DROWNED IN YARROW, OR, THE WATER O GAMRIE—A
Thomson's Orpheus Caledonius, II, 110, 1733.
RARE WILLIE DROWNED IN YARROW, OR, THE WATER O GAMRIE—B
a. Cromek's Select Scotish Songs, 1810, II, 196; eighth and ninth stanzas of a fragment sent William Tytler by Burns in 1790. b. Stenhouse's edition of the Musical Museum, 1853, IV, 464.
And in the Appendix:
"ALLAN WATER" /ANNAN WATER
"mentioned in Ramsay's Tea-Table Miscellany...1729"
RARE WILLIE DROWNED IN YARROW, OR, THE WATER O GAMRIE—D
Skene MS., p. 47; taken down from recitation in the north of Scotland, 1802-3. [An "Old Lady's Collection"]

{217}THE BROOM OF COWDENKNOWS—A
Percy papers; communicated to Percy by R. Lambe, of Norham, August 17, 1768, and dated May, 1768.
THE BROOM OF COWDENKNOWS—B
Herd's Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 308. b. Johnson's Museum, No 110, p. 113.
"The Broom of Cowdenknows,' a "new" song, in the Tea-Table Miscellany, p. 22, Dublin, 1729...."
THE BROOM OF COWDENKNOWS—C
Kinloch MSS, VII, 143, from the recitation of Jenny Watson, 24 April, 1826; Clydesdale.
THE BROOM OF COWDENKNOWS—D
Motherwell's MS., p. 517; from the singing of Mrs Storie, of Lochwinnoch.
THE BROOM OF COWDENKNOWS—E
Motherwell's Manuscript, p. 175; "from the recitation of Mrs Thomson, Kilbarchan, a native of Dumbartonshire, where she learned it."
THE BROOM OF COWDENKNOWS—H
Kinloch MSS, I, 137; from Mrs Boutchart.
THE BROOM OF COWDENKNOWS—I
Kinloch MSS, VII, 153; from the recitation of Miss M. Kinnear, August 23, 1826, a North Country version. [?]
THE BROOM OF COWDENKNOWS—J
Kinloch MSS, VI, 11; in the handwriting of Dr Joseph Robertson, and given him by his mother, Christian Leslie.
THE BROOM OF COWDENKNOWS—N
Kinloch MSS, I, 145; from Mary Barr.

{221}KATHARINE JAFFARY—C
"Scotch Ballads, Materials for Border Minstrelsy," No 30, Abbotsford. Sent Scott by William Laidlaw, in September, 1802; obtained by him from Jean Scott.
KATHARINE JAFFARY—D
"Scotch Ballads, Materials for Border Minstrelsy," No. 3, Abbotsford. Sent Scott September 11, 1802, by William Laidlaw; received by him from Mr Bartram of Biggar.
KATHARINE JAFFARY—E
Skene MS., p. 81; taken down in the north of Scotland, 1802-3. [an "Old Lady's Collection"]
KATHARINE JAFFARY—I
Motherwell's MS., p. 327, "from the recitation of Robert Sim, weaver, in Paisley, 16 July, 1825. It was a song of his father's, a great reciter of heroick ballads."

{225}ROB ROY—A
Skene MS., p. 44; from recitation in the north of Scotland, 1802-3.
ROB ROY—E
Pitcairn's MSS, III, 41; "from tradition (Widow Stevenson)."

{226}LIZIE LINDSAY—C
Kinloch MSS, I, 253; from the recitation of Mrs Bouchart, of Dundee.
LIZIE LINDSAY—H
From "The Old Lady's Collection," No 39. [from George Nutchell, who got it from his step-grandmother Mrs Lamond (Nelly Low) b. 1753]

{233}ANDREW LAMMIE—A
Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 126; "taken down by Dr Leyden from the recitation of a young lady, Miss Robson, of Edinburgh, who learned it in Teviotdale."

{236}THE LAIRD O DRUM—B
Skene MS., p. 78; taken down from recitation in the north of Scotland, 1802-3 [an "Old Lady's Collection"].
[see Herd 1776, in Appendix V, 230]
THE LAIRD O DRUM - Appendix V, 230
Motherwell's MSS, from the recitation of Thomas Risk, smith, learned by him in his youth at St Ninians's Stirlingshire.

{240}THE RANTIN LADDIE—A
a. Johnson's Musical Museum, No 462, p. 474, communicated by Robert Burns; 1797. b. Buchan's Ballads of the North of Scotland, II, 66, 1828.
THE RANTIN LADDIE—B
Skene MS., p. 55; taken down in the North of Scotland, 1802-3. [from an "Old Lady's Collection"]

{243}JAMES HARRIS (THE DÆMON LOVER)—A
Pepys Ballads, IV, 101; from a copy in Percy's papers.
JAMES HARRIS (THE DÆMON LOVER)—B
The Rambler's Garland, British Museum, 11621, c. 4 (57). 1785(?)
JAMES HARRIS (THE DÆMON LOVER)—D
Kinloch MSS, I, 297; from the recitation of T. Kinnear, Stonehaven. [?]
JAMES HARRIS (THE DÆMON LOVER)—F
Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, fifth edition, 1812, II, 427; taken down from the recitation of Walter Grieve by William Laidlaw.

{248}THE GREY COCK, OR, SAW YOU MY FATHER?
a. 'The Grey Cock,' Herd's Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 324; Herd's MSS, I, 4; Herd's Ancient and Modern Scottish Songs, 1776, II, 208. b. 'Saw you my father?' Chappell's Popular Music, p. 731. [1772, 1787]

{266}JOHN THOMSON AND THE TURK—B
Leyden's Glossary to The Complaynt of Scotland, p. 371. ["Leyden (1801) says that he had "heard the whole song when very young."]

{267}THE HEIR OF LINNE—A
Percy MS., p. 71; Hales and Furnivall, I, 174. [1765, 1794]
And, "THE RUNKARD'S LEGACY" from Percy's Papers in Appendix


{272}THE SUFFOLK MIRACLE
Wood, E. 25, fol. 83. b. Roxburghe, II, 240; Moore's Pictorial Book of Ancient Ballad Poetry, p. 463. [also Pepys,III...Old Ballads, 1723]

{274}OUR GOODMAN—A
Herd's MSS, I, 140. [1776]
OUR GOODMAN—B
A broadside: Printed and Sold at the Printing-Office in Bow Church-Yard, London.

{275}GET UP AND BAR THE DOOR—A
Herd, The Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 330. b. [Pinkerton], Select Scotish Ballads, 1783, II, 150.
GET UP AND BAR THE DOOR—C
Johnson's Museum, IV, 376, No 365, 1792. Contributed by Robert Burns.

{277}THE WIFE WRAPT IN WETHER'S SKIN—A
Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 319. "From the recitation of a friend of the editor's in Morayshire." [A fragment in Herd's MSS, I...belongs, if not to this ballad, at least to one in which an attempt is made to tame a shrew by castigation."]
THE WIFE WRAPT IN WETHER'S SKIN—B
Harris MS., fol. 26 b, No 25, from Miss Harris.
THE WIFE WRAPT IN WETHER'S SKIN
"From the recitation of Miss Lydia R. Nichols, Salem, MA, as heard in the early years of this century. Sung by a New England country fellow on ship-board...."

{279}THE JOLLY BEGGAR—A
"Old Lady's Collection," No 36.
THE JOLLY BEGGAR—B
a. Herd, The Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 46. b. Curious Tracts, Scotland, British Museum, 1078, m. 24, No 30. ["The Gaberlunyie -Man" was, so far as can be ascertained, first printed in teh Tea-Table Miscellany (in 1724)...."    Pinkerton 1783, Johnson, 1790, ritson 1794, Herd 1776]

{283}THE CRAFTY FARMER
a. 'The Crafty Farmer,' Logan, A Pedlar's Pack, p. 126, from a chap-book of 1796; 'The Crafty Miller,' Maidment, Scotish Ballads and Songs, 1859, p. 208, from a Glasgow stall-copy; a stall-copy, printed by M. Randall, Stirling.
'The Yorkshire Farmer,' Kidson, Traditional Tunes, p.140, from The Manchester Songster, 1792.

{285}THE GEORGE ALOE AND THE SWEEPSTAKE
a. Percy Papers, "from an ancient black-letter copy in Ballard's collection."
b. Rawlinson, 566, fol. 183, 40.
Roxburghe, III, 204, in Ebsworth, Roxburghe Ballads, VI, 408.

{286}THE SWEET TRINITY (THE GOLDEN VANITY)—A
Pepys Ballads, IV, 196, No 189.
THE SWEET TRINITY (THE GOLDEN VANITY)—B
a. Logan's Pedlar's Pack, p. 42, as sung about 1840 by Mr P. S. Fraser, of Edinburgh, and obtained by him orally. b. As sung by Mr George Du Maurier to Mr J. R. Lowell, 1884. c. Motherwell's MS., p. 420; from Mr John Cleland, marble-cutter, Glasgow, who had it of Mr Forrester, Stirling. d. Communicated by Mrs Moncrieff, as taught to a relative of hers by an old Scottish lady about 1830. e. Findlay MSS, I, 161, "from Strang, Divinity Student, 1868." f. Sharpe's Ballad Book, 1880, p. 160, note by Sir Walter Scott.
THE SWEET TRINITY (THE GOLDEN VANITY)—C
a. Stall-copy, Pitts, Seven Dials, Logan's Pedlar's Pack, p. 45. b. Long's Dictionary of the Isle of Wight Dialect, p. 145. c. Christie, Traditional Ballad Airs, I, 238, compounded from the recitation of an old woman of Buckie, Banffshire, and a chap-book copy. d. Baring-Gould and Sheppard, Songs of the West, No 64, Part III, p. 24, Part IV, p. xxxi, taken down from James Olver, Launceston (an improved copy). e. Buchan's MSS, II, 390, 414. f. Motherwell's MS., p. 392, and Note-Book, p. 50, from the recitation of Agnes Lyle, 24th August, 1825. g. Macmath MS., p. 80, from the recitation of Miss Agnes Macmath, 1893; learned at Airds of Kells, Kirkcudbrightshire.

{287}CAPTAIN WARD AND THE RAINBOW
Bagford Ballads, I, 65. [Pepys]

{289}THE MERMAID—A
The Glasgow Lasses Garland, the second piece, British Museum, 11621. c. 3 (68). "Newcastle, 1765?"

{293}JOHN OF HAZELGREEN—A
Elizabeth Cochrane's MS., p. 126. ["having been transcribed by C.K. Sharpe for Sir W. Scott "from a 4to MS., in a female hand, written probably about one hundred years ago,...."]
JOHN OF HAZELGREEN—B
Kinloch's MSS, VII, 135; from the recitation of Jenny Watson, Lanark, 24 April, 1826.

{299}TROOPER AND MAID—B
Motherwell's MS., p. 27; from the recitation of Widow Nicol.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 08:16 PM

Obviously there is a lot of material here. And obviously some of the decisions that I have made are quite subjective. But please feel free to point out the errors of my ways in all of this. I make no claims at expertise, and would welcome corrections and suggestions. I am going to let this rest a bit before I try to draw any conclusions from it.

My goal in bringing these two lists - Child's 18th century documentation and Coffin's list of ballads found in America - is to first of all see how many of "Coffin's ballads" are document by Child for the 18th century. The results of this comparison may suggest some starting places for deciding which ballads are the best candidates for the 18th century in America.

This would be a suggestion only. I realize that there are probably no direct lines from 18th century England & Scotland to America at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century. But the fact that "Coffin's ballads" were found in the oral tradition in this later period suggests that they survived in some kind of oral setting from the 18th century.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 10:41 AM

On my count, Coffin (and deV Renwick) + (Roud thru '86) have provided documentation for the "discovery" of 118 "Child Ballads" in America. These are the ones for which there is more or less clear evidence that they were being sung from and in the "oral tradition." Out of these 118 examples, there were only ten that I could not find any documentation for in the 18th century in England or Scotland from Child's information. Here are those ten:

{3} The False Knight on the Road

{27} The Whummil Bore

{43} The Broomfield Hill

{78} The Unquiet Grave

{85} Lady Alice

{218]} The False Lover Won Back

{228} Glasgow Peggie

{278} The Farmer's Curst Wife

{281} The Keach I the Creel

{295} The Brown Girl

It could well be that I missed finding the information on any of these. Or it could be that Child missed finding information on them for the 18th century. Or it might be that the "collectors" back then missed finding these ballads in the 18th century. Or it also might be that they were not in the oral tradition at that point. But obviously they could have been. However, for now, I am focusing on documented examples.

I guess I was surprised that "The Farmer's Curst Wife" (#278) didn't show up, since it is so popular over here, and seems to be well developed. The "False Knight", "Broomfield Hill", "Unquiet Grave", and "Brown Girl" also seem to be fairly popular in America. But all of these could have come later.

I would also say that I was surprised by the high percentage - 108 out of 118 - of examples that have been found here that can be documented to the 18th century in England/Scotland. That is more than I would have expected, but then I really was in the dark about what was happening with these ballads in 18th century England/Scotland.

Once again, I would invite everybody to check my information and to let me know if you can find documentation for any of the ten ballads listed above from 18th century England/Scotland (or for America!). And I am certainly open to corrections on my reading of Coffin's list as well.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 03:23 PM

295 The Brown Girl needs to be split into the 2 types 295A only exists in garlands and on slips and I've only ever seen 3 versions. 295B is a concoction made up by Baring Gould using 295A which Baring Gould had found in the BL, and The Sailor from Dover/Sally and her true love Billy, which did appear in the late 18th century but was widely printed in the nineteenth. All of the oral versions are simply derived from this second broadside. As Child says 295A itself is a concoction of bits and pieces from other ballads. A genuine Child Ballad? You'll have to make up your own mind about that. None of these are likely to be any older than about 1775. To help you, you might like to read my paper in 'Folk Song, tradition, Revival and Re-creation edited by Russell and Atkinson.

More on the others when I can check them, but I'm sure some of them have stall copy versions.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 04:10 PM

Whummil Bore.
Not only am I very suspicious of Reed Smith's contributions, I'm even sceptical of Motherwell on this one.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 04:12 PM

43
The Merry Broomfield or the West Country wager is well documented, fairly common on early broadsides.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 04:21 PM

78,
I have on several broadsides mostly early 19thc under titles such as
Cold Blows the Wind
The Weeping Lover (Bodl website)
The Mournful Lovers.
Of the last title there are 2 different copies in the Madden Collection, both maddeningly without imprint, but with seraph s which could be late 18thc

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 04:22 PM

100
Oops 100's not there

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 04:40 PM

85
I have carried out an extensive comparative study of all versions of Lady Alice and Child 42 George Collins and like many others have come to the conclusion that they are the same ballad. I also think some of the later versions may be burlesques of an older lost ballad. They certainly read like the burlesques of other ballads, Lord Lovel, Barbara Allen, Demon Lover, etc.

The earliest version I have is in Gammer Gurton's Garland 1810 under the title, Giles Collins and Proud Lady Ann. I'll check to see if it's also in earlier editions.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 04:45 PM

It's not in the earlier versions I have access to but they are not actually dated so if someone has access to the 1784 edition they could perhaps check.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 04:53 PM

218
Again highly suspicious. It is a typical Peter Buchan expansion of the 2 stanzas in Herd, and Christie simply expands on much of Buchan's expansions. Neither are trustworthy as Child proclaimed on numerous occasions. The version in Belden is almost verbatim the Buchan concoction and very likely derives from Child.   (IMO)

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 05:01 PM

228
Motherwell refers to stall copies, but I've never come across any, certainly not under the 3 titles quoted in Child. If there are any then they are likely 18th century, but there don't appear to be copies in the National Library of Scotland, or the whole of the ECCO Collection, or the BL.

There is a ballad 'Glasgow Peggy' printed by Sanderson of Edinburgh but the Sanderson's were printing throughout the 19thc and this would more likely be a copy from one of the published versions.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 05:17 PM

278
Burns rewrote the song based on 'the old song' so it must be at least 18thc. There are 17th century ballads on the same theme which no doubt inspired the Child Ballad. If pressed I'd say it's a typical stall copy rewrite of one of these, but I haven't seen a stall copy earlier than 1800, Pitts being the earliest I've got, although it was widely printed in the 19thc.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 05:32 PM

281
A 17th century ballad 'The Contriving lover, or The Fortunate Mistake' tells exactly the same story so there's the probable inspiration.

The earliest version I have is on a garland with no imprint in the BL but probably Robertson of Glasgow, c1800 titled 'The Blue Curtain'. It has 6 double stanzas.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 06:59 PM

Steve, I've got a major thunder storm bearing down on me and need to disconnect but I wanted to thank you for all of your notes. I will look at them in detail when I can get back to this. Thanks for all of your help. J.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 06:39 PM

Well the thunderstorm did not blow me away. In going over the revised survey, I find that out of 108 samples 80 of them have been attributed to one or more "sources" who either sang or recited them for somebody, in the 18th century. I would assume that this is as close as we can actually get to any sense of a living "oral tradition" in the 1700s of England and Scotland.

The remaining 28 ballads on the survey, which are documented by Child's sources as being from the 18th century, and which have been documented by Coffin, et.al. as having been found in the oral tradition in America at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century, apparently come from either printed collections, private manuscripts or broadsides. These are not mutually exclusive categories. And this does not mean that they weren't being sung and recited as well. However, at least as far as Child's sources go, apparently nobody documented them from sung/recited sources. However, we know they were being sung, because they were collected as sung ballads in America.

Here are the 28 ballads that are not documented with source singers/reciters:

{18}SIR LIONEL

{45}KING JOHN AND THE BISHOP

{54}THE CHERRY-TREE CAROL

{56}DIVES AND LAZARUS

{105}THE BAILIFF'S DAUGHTER OF ISLINGTON

{118}ROBIN HOOD AND GUY OF GISBORNE

{120}ROBIN HOOD'S DEATH

{122}ROBIN HOOD AND THE BUTCHER

{125}ROBIN HOOD AND LITTLE JOHN

{126}ROBIN HOOD AND THE TANNER

{138}ROBIN HOOD AND ALLEN A DALE

{139}ROBIN HOOD'S PROGRESS TO NOTTINGHAM

{140}ROBIN HOOD RESCUING THREE SQUIRES

{141}ROBIN HOOD RESCUING WILL STUTLY

{162}THE HUNTING OF THE CHEVIOT

{167}SIR ANDREW BARTON

{176}NORTHUMBERLAND BETRAYED BY DOUGLAS

{181}THE BONNY EARL OF MURRAY

{185}DICK O THE COW

{248}THE GREY COCK, OR, SAW YOU MY FATHER?

{267}THE HEIR OF LINNE


{272}THE SUFFOLK MIRACLE

{274}OUR GOODMAN

{275}GET UP AND BAR THE DOOR

{283}THE CRAFTY FARMER

{285}THE GEORGE ALOE AND THE SWEEPSTAKE

{287}CAPTAIN WARD AND THE RAINBOW

{289}THE MERMAID

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 10 Apr 12 - 06:43 PM

I have found a possible 18th century reference for "Barbara Allen" (Child #84). This is from NORTH PENNSYLVANIA MINSTRELSY, AS SUNG IN THE BACKWOOD SETTLEMENTS, HUNTING CABINS AND LUMBER CAMPS IN NORTHERN PENNSYLVANIA, 1840-1910, by Henry W. Shoemaker:

http://books.google.com/books?id=WiAwAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=North+Pennsylvania+Minstrelsy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VbCET4XwDejt0gG

Shoemaker says that this version of "Barbara Allen" was sung by Walter S. Chatham, 1777-1855. This means that it is possible that he learned this as a young man in the 18th century. Here is the link for the song:

http://books.google.com/books?id=WiAwAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA107&dq=Bonny+Barbara+Ellen-+North+Pennsylvania+Minstrelsy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wK-ET

There are several other "Child Ballads" in this collection, including: "Charlie and Sallie" (a version of "Geordie"), "The Cruise in the Lowlands Low", "Katie Maury" (a version of "The Baffled Knight"), "Wooing and Death of John Randal" (a version of "Lord Randall"), "Lord Lovel", and "Lord Thomas".

The ballad "Charlie and Sallie" was learned by Dan Elliott "from his grandmother", but there are no reference dates given. This is also true for "Lord Thomas". The ballad, "Katie Maury" was sung in 1857. The version of "Lord Randall" was said to be "the version our earliest pioneers sang in Potter County,..."

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 04:18 PM

John,
If you're happy with possibilities and probabilities I go back to my original statement, it is very probable that genuine Child Ballads found in genuine oral tradition in America in the 19th/20th centuries were already in oral tradition there in the 18thc if not earlier in some cases.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 05:27 PM

Steve, I agree with your assessment of this. However, I am still hoping that along the way we might turn up further documentation for that probability. In the "Barbara Allen" example from Northern Pennsylvania, there is no way to say for sure that it was known there in the 1700s, but we can document the fact that the singer was born in 1777. Thus, there is the possibility that he learned it as a young person growing up. It's also possible that it didn't show up in his life or his region until later on in his life. I was just glad to get a 1700s date associated with one of the ballads over here.

Your example in the second posting in this thread up above about:" 'A Pioneer Songster' edited by Harold W. Thompson.... an anthology of ballads from the Stevens-Douglass Ms of Western New York, 1841-56" is another example of some real possibilities. If those songs were being sung by adults, especially older adults, in 1841, there is a very good possibility that they may go back into the 1700s. I see some parallels between the Western New York collection and this collection from Northern Pennsylvania. They are geographically quite close to each other, which further supports the idea that this was a region in which these songs were and perhaps had been popular for some time.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 05:40 PM

John, for what it's worth, all the research I've seen would suggest older traditional singers not affected by Tin Pan Alley and the folk scene learnt the great majority of their songs in their youth.

Where ballads are not known to have been in print and are significantly different from British versions and fairly well spread this would indicate at least a couple of generations in oral tradition in America. Of course this does not apply so much to pieces like Barbara Allen which have been constantly in print and sheet music since the early 18th century.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 12:34 PM

Steve, I am glad to know that "older traditional singers not affected by Tin Pan Alley and the folk scene learnt the great majority of their songs in their youth." This would tend to push a bunch of possible references back into an earlier period. I also appreciate your second suggestion.

The Northern Pennsylvania version of "Barbara Allen" above, from the singing of Walter S. Chatham, is very close to Child's B version:

a. Roxburghe Ballads, II, 25; reprint of the Ballad Society, III, 433. b. Roxburghe Ballads, III, 522. c. A broadside formerly belonging to Bishop Percy. d. Percy's Reliques, 1765, III, 125.

It has obviously been somewhat localized but is recognizably the same ballad. So did that "broadside formerly belonging to Bishop Percy" somehow find its way to Northern Pennsylvania, or did Percy's Reliques end up there. Or had this version remained in the oral tradition. All rhetorical questions, but interesting to wonder about.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 04:04 PM

To be perfectly honest with you, Percy's Reliques is the more likely having been much more accessible since it first appeared in the middle of the 18thc. It has gone through many editions, some very cheap ones like Everyman. And then of course there are all the other publications that dipped into it, including Child himself of course, particularly in E&SB in the 1860s.

Not a Child Ballad as such but may be of interest. The Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Murdered Servantman Roud 18, Laws M32, only exists in fairly brief versions in British oral tradition, yet on your side of the pond there are 2 early versions from Mss more than twice as long as the longest British version. They both give the merchant as from Bridg(e)water which isn't far from Bruton. I presume these longer versions are pretty close to the original stall copy. At one point I was beginning to think that the ballad may have been American originally as there are many Bridgewaters in the Eastern States. I have since changed my mind having seen a Bristol printed garland ballad with similar wording. I would dearly like to find the orginal ballad.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 04:26 PM

Have you looked at these? The second needs care, it's not sufficiently critical.

Gower (1976) Hershel Gower "The Scottish element in traditional ballads collected in America" pp117-151 and 208-211 of Emily Lyle (ed) Ballad Studies (Cambridge)
Tallmadge (1968) William H Tallmadge "The Scotch-Irish and the British Traditional Ballad in America" New York Folklore Quarterly vol XXIV no 1 (New York Folklore Society, New York, December 1968) pages 261 - 274

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 05:19 PM

Just a note...

Mudcat still hosts the website of William Bruce Olson, who died a few years ago. He researched old songs & tunes from many angles, and though much information relates to UK sources, this page makes reference to American sources. Perhaps it will add a bit to searches.

(Bruce and Malcolm Douglas carried on a regular discussion of various issues)

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: peregrina
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 06:45 PM

This is an amazing thread.
Here's another route for establishing the age, longevity and continuity of child (and other) ballads in America. It seems that 28 of the 39 singers whom Cecil Sharpe collected from in Madison County NC traced their descent
from the same man, one Roderick Shelton, first settler in Shelton Laurel. By the time Sharp was collecting, the singers had their own variants (and subsets) of what seems to have been one ancestor's repertoire. (this comes from the article 'a nest of singing birds' by mike Yates and kriss sands at the MT website and they cite Betty smith's use of research by Frances Dunham in the Jane hicks Gentry biography.) ... Perhaps someone even has a way to calculate time from the divergences, as in evolutionary biology. Though that isn't really necessary, because some singers today can say that they are eighth-generation ballad singers.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 08:18 PM

The idea that folksongs move through families horizontally as well as vertically seems very significant.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 11:06 AM

Mary, Jonathan,
Yes, it's a while since I read it but a lasting impression from the Jane Hicks Gentry biog and indeed Kytrad's 'Singing Family of the Cumberlands' is the inter-relatedness of many of the ballad singing families, the Harmons, the Hicks etc.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Richie
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 03:18 PM

Cox's version F of 73. Lord Thomas and Fair Annet
is dated 1716 by tracing it back through the family in 1916.

It begins:


Lord Thomas- Miller (WV) 1916 Cox F

O mother, O mother come tell unto me,
And tell the story true,
Whether I shall bring fair Ellen dear home,
Or bring the brown girl home, home, home,
Or bring the brown girl home?

A broadside of the earlier English broadside from the 1700s was printed in the US circa 1840s.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 10:11 AM

Richie, thanks for the reference on the Cox version of "Lord Thomas" from WVA. It reminded me that I need to look at all of those ballads in that book. I suspect that this kind of mention, that "Mr. Miller thinks the ballad has been known in his family for about two hundred years" is as close as we are going to get on much documentation for these ballads in the 18th century. Thanks for catching this and doing the math. Here is the link for everyone else:

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/56/mode/2up

I agree with Steve and "Peregrina" that the Gentry biography is important and fascinating. When I was working on Child Ballad #18 - "Sir Lionel", on the "Wild Boar" thread, I was able to explore some of the family relationships between the Beech Mountain Hicks and Jane Gentry down in Hot Springs, and Sam Harmon over in Cades Cove, Tennessee. Sam had a very interesting version of this ballad and it was quite close to one still sung back up on Beech Mountain, NC, which had been his home before he went to Tennessee, in the 1800s. I am looking forward to taking another look at the material from Mike Yates.

And speaking of the Ritchie Family in Kentucky, I have often wondered about the impact of the "settlement schools" like the one in Hindman, KY, on the spread of this music. I know there were several down in North Carolina as well. I seem to recall that one of the older Ritchie sisters attended one down in NC and brought back that gem "Black is the Color" to Kentucky.

There certainly is a worthy project for somebody to try to document and untangle that "nest" of ballad singers in Madison County, North Carolina. I hope to live long enough to read that book someday!

Bill D. thanks for the reminder about Bruce Olsen's website on Broadside collections. I think it will add more than "a bit" to all of this. Has anybody already gone through this material and rounded up the references to the Child Ballads? Please say "yes"!

And John Moulden, thanks for the two additional references. It's about time for another trip to the UVA library.

And Steve, thanks for the suggestion about the Pennsylvania version of "Barbara Allen" and Percy's Reliques. Do we have any information from the 18th century that people were using Percy as an actual songbook? I keep thinking that we are missing a lot of links in here somewhere. How do we actually get from Percy to Northern Pennsylvania with so little alteration in the text? It certainly does suggest the involvement of a written source, but the PA text also shows evidence of local adaptation.   

Richie's final comment with regard to the "Lord Thomas" version from WVA that a "broadside of the earlier English broadside from the 1700s was printed in the US circa 1840s" makes me wonder if there were not a bunch of broadsides being printed in the US circa the 1840's and that Jonathan's comment back a ways "that most of the American popularity of Child ballads came from some sort of latterly unnoticed "broadside/songster revival" from around 1830?" Would this information be on Bruce Olsen's website?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 02:32 PM

John
As I said, the link doesn't have to be direct from the Reliques. The material was copied into many other books and possibly was a source for some broadsides.

From the surviving evidence I'd say the songsters like The American Songster/Forget-me-not, and Western Songsters were more of an influence c1830-40 than the broadsides. Apart from printers like Coverley and Deeming I haven't seen a lot of evidence of American single sheets or garlands from this period.

From what I remember Bruce's site was more to do with the early history of traditional stuff on broadsides, 16th 17th centuries, but as that's what I'm interested in I might just have been looking at the wrong bits. I think there is a list of Child ballad references on the site, but it takes a bit of navigating.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 04:09 PM

My impression (and that's all it is)generally and from the Library of Congress's site squares with Steve's: not a great deal of single-sheet publication in America before the 1860s.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 10:26 AM

Steve & Jonathan, I appreciate the suggestion about the "songsters". I spent some time last evening looking at a couple of them:

http://books.google.com/books?id=VWQLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA17&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=SS0_AAAAYAAJ&pg=PP7&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

I did not turn up any trace of these ballads in either of these songsters, although I confess that I was getting cross-eyed again and fairly mushed out before I finished. It was interesting to me to see so many Scottish songs, but none of the Scottish ballads.

This morning I did a quick Google Book search for "The Brown Girl" and for "Lord Thomas and Fair Ellender" just to see if it turned up any references to a songster. No luck there. I did turn up some other kinds of interesting references. One that caught my eye was this "songster"(?) from the previous century (1723):

http://books.google.com/books?id=hlEJAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA249&dq=%22The+Brown+Girl%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=e8GKT56wGKbW0QGipa22CQ&ved=0CEcQ6AE

Here is an 1839 reference to this version:

http://books.google.com/books?id=eCfZAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA394&dq=%22The+Brown+Girl%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XL-KT6GtBoPg0QGxh533CQ&ved=0CE0Q6AE

I'm wondering if this kind of book from the 18th century was circulating in America at all. It is pretty interesting to compare the collections of songs contained in the 1723 book and those in the later songsters! And here is something from in between from Ritson (1829):

http://books.google.com/books?id=5DgJAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA89&dq=%22The+Brown+Girl%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UcOKT--vM6qw0AHJ25SDCg&ved=0CFcQ6AEw

This looks closer to the earlier material rather than the later stuff.

Does anyone have a specific reference to a Child Ballad in one or more of the American "songsters", or a specific place to look for this? Jonathan could you post the LOC site?

I've been spending most of my time the last day or so on Cox's West Virginia material and I'm beginning to get a strong impression of "class difference" running through all of this. And here I am talking about the American side of things. The people who generally sang these ballads, at least in West Virginia at the time when Cox was collecting, which was about the same time that Sharp was collecting in other areas of the Southern Appalachians, and Alphonso Smith was collecting in Virginia, circa 1915, were not of the same "class" as those doing the "collecting". And in reading the West Virginia accounts of the origins of those ballads, they were not from printed sources or books but what we might call "family and friends oral tradition". I don't see any mention of "songsters" or of "broadsides", which may suggest a class difference between those who were singing ballads and those who were reading books. I'm not wanting to head off into socio-economic discussions here.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 10:48 AM

Many British songsters (and perhaps even broadsides) must have been imported to America in Colonial and post-Colonial times. That would mean that a British place of publication wouldn't mean the the item was restricted to British circulation.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 03:04 PM

You beat me to it, Jonathan.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 03:05 PM

I'll have a look at my American songsters after my bath!

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 05:00 PM

Okay had a look at my 5 American songsters and not much in the way of Child Ballads pops up. My undated 'Forget-me-not Songster' seems quite seminal, and Jonathan might be able to date it.
It has
Captain Ward
Captain Glen
The Mermaid
Barbara Allen 'It fell about the Martinmas Day'
Lord Thomas and Fair Eleanor 21v (of interest to Richie)

The 1839 N C Nafis, NY 'The American Songster' has
Barbara Allen 'In Scarlet Town where I was born
and the same songster printed in 1851 by Cornish and Lamport NY has the same version.

I have another similar songster without title page that has another copy of the Mermaid which can be dated to 1846.

Steve Roud has more of these than I do and I suspect some of the collectors on Ballad List will have many more.

I've just pulled an interesting volume off the shelves which I'd forgotten about. American Song Sheets 1850-1870 by Edwin Wolf 2nd. It seems to be mainly sheets by De Marsan and is only a catalogue, but I haven't yet included it in my own indexes so it will be worth looking through for interesting ballads, though I think I've got copies of most of De Marsan's output.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 07:35 PM

Steve, Norm Cohen's 2005 article, "The Forget-Me-Not Songsters and their Role in the American Folksong Tradition" (American Music, XXII, 137-219) attempts to disentangle and date the various booklets carrying that title. Their contents differ considerably.

Cohen believes the earliest edition was published by Robert H. Elton in New York in 1840-41. Earlier dates, which are occasionally proffered, seem to be based on wishful thinking only.

If you can't access the article through JSTOR, email me and I'll see if I can find a way to get it to you.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 02:12 PM

Hi Jonathan,
I thought I remembered Norm doing this but I wasn't certain so I didn't post it. I've a vague notion he sent me a copy so I'll have to look it up and check. I can remember looking at all those pictues of Kelly the Pirate and the different versions of it.

I'm about halfway through the Wolf catalogue and there are some interesting titles in there which warrant following up. Amazing the number of songs set to the 'Bow wow wow' tune which started in the middle of the 18th century and still v popular more than a century later. Lots of things set to Villikins as well.

1840s would have been my guess for my copy of FMNS. Apart from the obvious native American ballads there's a lot in there from British broadsides of about 1800-1830.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 03:15 PM

Steve & Jonathan, thanks for the discussion on these "songsters". Here are links to two of the "Forget-me-not" songsters. The first one does contain some of these ballads. I could not find dates for either one of them:

http://books.google.com/books?id=oEYZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA63&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

This one was published in Boston, and contains:
"Barbara Allan", "Captain Ward" (?), "Lord Bakeman", "Lord Thomas and Fair Eleanor", "Mermaid" (p. 79), "The Turkish Lady". The "Barbara Allan" is a strange version to me. The following Songster does not seem to contain any of the ballads. There is a song in it entitled "The Fashions of 1847" which might be a clue to dating it.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Zq9DAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 03:36 PM

I want to highly commend the discussion about the reliability of historical information on song origins from the source singers themselves that has been taking place over on Richie's Ballad thread with Jonathan Lighter, Steve Gardham, Brian Peters, and Jim Carroll. It begins here with a suggestion by Jonathan:

thread.cfm?threadid=143708&messages=50#3337887

It is in the light of this discussion, which is ongoing, that I want to present some information from John Harrington Cox's collection of West Virginia folk songs, including a number of the "Child Ballads". I want to again thank Richie for calling my attention to this collection. This is a good source for demonstrating how source singers "remember" the origins of their songs. Here is a link to Cox's book, published in 1925, although most of the ballads seem to come from a decade or so earlier:

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/n7/mode/2up

Here is an example of a biographical sketch of one of the ballad singers represented in Cox, named George W. Cunningham of Elkins, West Virginia.

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/n23/mode/2up

Cox had four ballads from him. Mr. Cunningham's memory sources don't go back as far as some of the others. For instance, he says he learned his version of Child Ballad #4, "Six Kings' Daughters", "shortly after the Civil War from Laban White, Dry Fork." Here is the link for that:

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/6/mode/2up

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 04:18 PM

Here we have one contributor who learnt his ballads whilst very young and was recorded late in life. He was obviously a gifted person with a very good memory and in this case a very reliable source, but not all contributors of songs and ballads fall into that category.

Then of course there are those collectors who deliberately distort the information given, but that's another issue entirely.

Yes 'Lord Bakeman' is in my FMNS but I skipped it because it's a burlesque, not a serious version.

Both these versions of Barbara Allen are in Child, the 'strange' one being the Scottish version. My own theory here is this is the ballad referred to by Pepys as 'the little Scotch ballad' he heard at the theatre and the 'Reading/Scarlet' version I think could have been a burlesque of this.

Jonathan, I do have Norm's article, thanks.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 06:09 PM

Steve, thanks for the information on "Barbara Allen".

One of the source singers in Cox's collection is Mrs. Rachel Fogg, who was originally from Doddridge County, WVA. There were four Child Ballads obtained from her by Mrs. Hilary G. Richardson, in Clarksburgy, Harrison County, WVA, in March of 1916. They were: "Down by the Greenwood Side", "Little Johnnie Green" (Barbara Allen), "Young Collins"/"Johnny Collins", and "The House Carpenter".

In each case, Mrs. Fogg said that she had learned the ballad from her mother, and she from her mother. In one instance, she added "on back into the old country across the sea", and in another instance, she added "...on back into the old country across the sea in Scotch, Dutch, or Jerusalem, she forgets which but in this country they call'em Hebrews."

Here are the links:

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/28/mode/2up

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/108/mode/2up

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/110/mode/2up

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/146/mode/2up

Here is an account of Cox's visit with Mrs. Fogg:

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/n27/mode/2up

And here is a picture of Mrs. Fogg:

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/112/mode/2up

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 06:31 PM

Thanks, John. I have Cox.

Norm just sent me another pdf of his excellent article on FMNSs. Would you like me to ask him if I can forward this to you? It has good background info on the history of the ballads in America.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 09:21 PM

Steve, I would appreciate seeing that article. I will pm you my email address.

I'm going to go ahead and compile some of this information from Cox and put it up here. I think there are a few of these personal histories/memories that would qualify as maybe reaching back into the 1700s. I am interested in rounding up as much information as possible and making it available. I also very much appreciate the critical analysis. Each of the perspectives that we've considered adds another kind of feeling to this history. I think that the 1700s are really the launching point for the ballad history in America. And I would guess that it "lived" for about 200 years, from around 1750 to about 1950 or so. Maybe a little later on both ends. These folks from the early part of the 20th century may well be the highpoint of the history here. Or they may be the end point.

Thanks for your continuing insights and interest.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 08:51 AM

> I think that the 1700s are really the launching point for the ballad history in America.

I'm inclined to agree, and later in the century rather than earlier.

That's not to deny that ballads were presumably sung earlier. But recall that the U.S. population in 1790, from Georgia to Maine, was under 4 million (compared with 92 million in 1910, the census prior to Sharp's visit). The entire Anglo-Celtic population, the group likely to be singing Child ballads, was probably no more than 3 million. (There were 700,000 Negro slaves in 1790.)

Southern Appalachian state populations in 1790:

Virginia: 748,000
Kentucky: 74,000
N. Carolina: 374,000
S. Carolina: 250,000
Georgia: 83,000

Roughly half a million of those counted were slaves (who may have been unlikely to sing Child ballads). There were not a whole lot more people living in all of the Southern Appalachian states in 1790 than are living in Phoenix today.

I haven't checked on the Appalachian numbers for 1910.

It may well be that many more people in 1790 knew many more ballads than in 1910, but for all we know the opposite may have been the case. There's no way to correlate the small population and the greater difficulty of travel in the 18th C. with ballad singing, but it seems at least possible that fewer people, greater distances, greater isolation from printed sources, and fewer social networks made for fewer ballads and ballad performances.

Only a suggestion.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 10:45 AM

Jonathan, thanks for the information of population sizes. These kinds of things really help put all of this in a more realistic perspective. I assume that the "Virginia" statistics would include what we are now calling "West Virginia". I wonder what the population looked like west of the Alleghenies in 1790.

Speaking of which, here is some more information from J.H. Cox's collection. He has four ballads from Mrs. Elizabeth Tapp Beck, of Morgantown in Monongalia County, which were collected in March of 1916. There is "Lord Thomas and Fair Eleanor," "The House Carpenter," "Home Came The Old Man (#274)," and "The Golden Willow Tree." Cox says that she said that she learned these songs from her mother, Mrs. Thomas H. Tapp, who learned it from her mother, Mrs. Elizabeth Wade Mack, who lived "near Bethel Church" near Easton. Here are the links:

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/64/mode/2up

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/148/mode/2up

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/154/mode/2up

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/170/mode/2up

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 11:09 AM

Continuing with some more information from John Harrington Cox's West Virginia collection in "Folk Songs of the South", here are several sources which seem to go back a ways.

Cox has "The King's Daughter" or "The False Lover" from Miss Mildred Joy Barker, of Morgantown in Monongalia County, WVA, on October 2, 1916, which was "obtained from her mother, whose family came to Monongalia County before the Revolution. Its members have known the ballad for years."    Here is the link:

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/12/mode/2up

Cox has another version of this ballad (#4) called "Pretty Polly" sent to him by Mrs. Anna Copley, of Shoals in Wayne County, WVA, on December 19, 1915, "dictated by her cousin Mr. Burwell Luther, who learned it from his mother about fifty years ago. Mrs. Luther's name was Julia Stephenson. She learned it from her mother, whose maiden name was Peyton. The Peytons were English and the Stephensons were Highland Scotch. The Luthers and Stephensons have lived in Wayne County for over a century, the latter having come from Georgia." Here is the link:

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/8/mode/2up

Then there is a version of "Lord Randall" called "Johnny Randolph," which was "Communicated by Miss Lily Hagans, Morgantown, Monongalia County, January 20, 1916; obtained from Mrs. Beulah Ray Richey, who learned it from her mother, a member of the Caldwell family of Wheeling, a family of Irish [Scots-Irish?] descent who came to Wheeling before the Revolution." Here is the link:

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/26/mode/2up

Here are two versions of "Lord Lovel", one from a lady of English descent and one from a lady of Welsh descent. The first one, "Lord Lovel," was "Contributed by Miss Blanche Satterfield, Fairmont, Marion County, 1915; learned from her mother, who learned it from her mother, a lady of English descent, who came from Washington County, Pennsylvania."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/78/mode/2up

The second version of "Lord Lovel" was "Communicated by Miss Lucille V. Hays, Glenville, Gilmer County, November 22, 1916; obtained from her mother, who learned it from her mother, and she from her mother, Mrs. Zackwell Morgan, a lady of Welsh descent."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/82/mode/2up

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 02:48 PM

I'm having problems posting again

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 02:51 PM

For the second night I've written a post, submitted the message, the page has gone to the home page but my post won't come up even if I go back several times and try to submit message again. Most frustrating!

Any ideas, Joe?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 02:55 PM

I'll try again.

Whist I know nothing of American migrations, Sharp felt that some of the ballads he was collecting in the remoter corners of the Appalachians had been hiding there for several centuries.

Might I suggest looking for scarcer ballads that have material that has died out in Britain, that is possibly closer to the earliest versions from the 17th century.

I'm sure I've seen examples of this and of course my study of 'Bramble Briar' shows this did happen though of course it's not a Child Ballad. Mind you it has better credentials than some of Child's higher numbered ballads.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 02:56 PM

YES!!!!!

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 03:39 PM

A 1790-91 map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/United_States_1790-05-1791-03.png

Kentucky is still part of Virginia, and most of Alabama and Mississippi are part of Georgia.

The population of the Southwest Territory (modern Tennessee) may have been about 35,000:

No census of the Northwest Territory (Ohio through part of Minnesota) seems to have been taken, but I'd be surprised if it numbered more than 20,000-30,000 English speakers.

(Links to the above information seem to be keeping this message from posting. I've tried a dozen times over two or three hours.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 03:40 PM

That was me.

I had no problem posting a test to the "C-U-B-A" thread.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 12:46 PM

Continuing with some more material from John Harrington Cox, here are three ballads collected from Mr. J. Harrison Miller, of Wardensville in Hardy County, WVA, in January and june of 1916. First there is "The Seven Sleepers" (#7), which Mr. Harrison "obtained from his mother, who learned it when a girl from Scotch Roach."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/18/mode/2up

Then there is "Johnny Randolph" (#12), which was "obtained from his mother; learned from Susan Stewart; she, from her stepfather, John Jennings, who came from England."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/24/mode/2up

And then there is the version of "Lord Thomas", which Richie called our attention to above. This ballad was "obtained from his mother, who learned it from her mother, Mrs. Lucinda Ellis, who learned it from her grandmother, Mrs. Strawnsnider. Mr. Miller thinks the ballad has been known in the family for about two hundred years."

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 01:01 PM

Opps! I hit the wrong key. Here is the link, again, for Mr. Miller's "Lord Thomas":

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/56/mode/2up

Here are two ballads from Mrs. J.J. Haines of Parkersburg in Wood County, WVA, collected in January of 1916. There is a version of "Fair Annie and Gregory" (#76). Mrs. Haines said, "I have heard these old ballads sung form my earliest recollection by my grandparents and others. Grandfather's name was Benjamin Franklin Roberts; grandmother's name was Mary Leatherman Roberts. Grandfather's mother was a descendant of the Franklins, but I do not know whether of Benjamin Franklin's father's family, or a brother. My ancesters on both sides came to America in the time of the colonization."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/82/mode/2up

And from the same sources, Mrs. Haines had a version of "The House Carpenter" :

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/148/mode/2up

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 03:10 PM

I know it's a long and laborious process but the best way to establish any tentative conclusions about any version is by comparative study of as many versions as possible, including any available in print. Exceptions will be the rare cases where early versions are available, such as in the case of Bramble Briar I mentioned earlier. I know it's not a Child Ballad but it ticks most of the boxes.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 03:48 PM

Steve, I appreciate your suggestion about looking for the scarcer ballads that have survived here and had died out in Britain, and then doing some comparative studies. That makes sense to me. I wonder if anyone has tried this. To begin with, surely someone has made a list of those ballads which survived in America but not in Great Britain. That would be a helpful starting point.

In the meantime, I will put up the rest of these WVA, references from Cox. Here are five versions of "The Wife of Usher's Well" that have some interesting "remembered" lineages. The first one is called "A Moravian Song", and illustrates something of the history of the relationships between the Scots-Irish and the German immigrants in WVa. It was contributed by Miss Bettie R. Loy, of Glebe, in Hampshire County, WVA, in February of 1916. Miss Loy writes: "I am sending you a song that my mother learned of her mother, who was of Dutch descent, but either she or her parents learned it of a Moravian preacher and she called it a Moravian song."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/88/mode/2up

The second version was called "Lady Gay", and was contributed by John B. Adkins of Branchland, in Lincoln County, WVA, in February, 1916. He learned it "when a child from an aunt, who learned it from her mother."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/90/mode/2up

The third example of this ballad was communicated by Mr. Decker Toney, of Queen's Ridge, in Wayne Count, WVA, in January of 1916. It was "learned from his mother, who learned it from her mother, Hannah Moore, and she, from her mother, Hannah Ross, who was born in Virginia." Back when Hannah Ross was born, West Virginia was still a part of Virginia, so it is not clear what this reference might mean. But it seems to imply what was once known as "East Virginia" or the eastern part of Virginia. See the previous link for this version which is "D".

The fourth and fifth versions were collected by the same person. They were communicated by Miss Mary M. Atkeson, of Morgantown in Monongalia county, WVA, in December of 1915. The first one ("E") was "obtained from Mr. Joseph H. Spicer, Spring Gap, in Hampshire County, WVA; learned from his mother, who learned it from her grandmother, who came from Ireland."

The last version ("G") was "obtained from Mr. A.G. Springer, Farmington, Marion County; dictated by his mother, who learned it from her mother, a lady of Welsh and English ancestry, who came from Pennsylvania."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/92/mode/2up

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 03:58 PM

In 1916, Cox had two ballads collected by Miss Lalah Lovett, of Bulltown in Braxton County, WVA. The first one was a version of "Barbara Ellen", "obtained from Mrs. Cora Starkey, Harrison County, who learned it when a child from her parents; they learned it in Virginia from their parents, who were of English descent."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/100/mode/2up

The second ballad collected by Miss Lovett, was a version ("J") of "The House Carpenter", which was also obtained from Mrs. Cora Starkey.

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/148/mode/2up

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 04:41 PM

>I know it's not a Child Ballad but it ticks most of the boxes.

All of 'em except being included by Child, no?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 08:54 AM

Here are a few more Child Ballads from John Harrington Cox's collection from WVA. The first one is a version of "The Maid Freed from the Gallows" called "By a Lover Saved". It was communicated to Cox by Mr. Harold Staats, of Ripley, in Jackson County, WVA, in 1921, Mr. Staats wrote: "This song was told, or rather sung, to me by some person living on Tug Fork. It is claimed that this song was brought to this country by Captain William Parsons, one of the early settlers. According to legends it was at one time a popular folk song in the British Isles."
An interesting account. Parsons was one of the first settlers who came over the Alleghenies to settle in what is now Tucker County, WVA.

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/118/mode/2up

Then we have a version of Child #155 called "It Rained a Mist", which was "Communicated by Miss Violet Hiett, Great Cacapon, Morgan County, February, 1917; obtained from her father, who learned it when a child from his mother."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/120/mode/2up

Another version of Child #155 ("I") came from Mr. Richard Elkins Hyde, of Martinsburg, in Berkeley County, WVA, in December of 1916. It was "obtained from his mother, who learned it from her mother, who had it from her mother, a lady of good Scotch-Irish stock from Wardensville, Hardy County."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/126/mode/2up

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 10:29 AM

Here are two rarer ballads that Cox found in West Virginia. The first one is Child #199, "The Bonnie House O' Airlie" and the second one is Child #201, "Bessie Bell and Mary Gray." The first one was "Contributed by Miss Fannie Eagan, Hinton, Summers County, January 12, 1917, learned from Miss Amelia Bruce, who was born and bred in Edinburgh, came to America about twenty years previously, and recently returned to Scotland to remain there." This example is of interest not because it documents an early date necessarily, but because it documents an example of the actual transmission of a ballad from Scotland to America.

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/128/mode/2up

The second ballad was "Communicated by Miss Eva Hughes, Spencer, Roane County, December 7, 1915; obtained from her mother, whose maiden name was Elmira Grisell, born near Malaga, Ohio, in 1837. She learned it from her mother, who was Elizabeth Adams, daughter of Ann Hazlett and Jonathan Adams (English) of Massachusetts. Elizabeth's parents died when she was a child, and she was brought up by her aunt, Betsy Adams, Horne, Darby, Pennsylvania."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/134/mode/2up

There are two more examples of Child #243, "The House Carpenter". One was "communicated by Mr. Greenland Thompson Federer, Morgantown, Monongalia County, January 1917; taken from an old manuscript song book owned by Lizzie Kelly, Independence. A name at the end of the ballad seems to indicate that it was taken down from the dictation of Mary Guseman."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/140/mode/2up

The second example called "Salt Water Sea" ("Q") was "communicated by Miss Sallie Evans, Randolph County, 1916; obtained from Mr. Guy Marshall, who got it from his mother, who learned it from her mother."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/148/mode/2up

There is version of "The Suffolk Miracle" (Child #272) called "A Lady near New York Town." It was contributed by Miss Polly McKinney, of Sophia in Raleigh County, WVA, in 1919. Miss McKinney wrote: "Grandma Lester taught me the song when I was a little child. Grandma is eighty-five years old. She says the song is very old. Her mother taught it to her when she was a little girl."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/152/mode/2up

Mr. Wallie Barnett of Leon, in Mason County, WVA, contributed a version of Child #277, called "Dandoo." He learned it from his grandfather "about the year 1898" His grandfather "was of English descent, a native of Gilmer County. The last stanza was furnished by some teacher whose name was not secured." (Cox)

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/158/mode/2up

And finally, my last example from Cox is a version of Child #275, "Get Up And Bar The Door", called "Old John Jones." Cox says: "this excellent text, agreeing well with Child B, was reported by Mr. Carey Woofter, Glenville, Gilmer County, September, 1924. It was taken down from the recitation of Mrs. Sarah Clevenger of Briar Lick Run, near Perkins, Gilmer County. She learned it from her grandmother, Mrs. Rebecca Clevenger, who came from Loudon County, Virginia, seventy-eight years ago, as the date in the family Bible gives it."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/516/mode/2up

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 10:40 AM

For convenience sake, I've gathered up all of the information from Cox into one long(!) post as follows:
---
I want to present some information from John Harrington Cox's collection of West Virginia folk songs, including a number of the "Child Ballads". I want to again thank Richie for calling my attention to this collection. This is a good source for demonstrating how source singers "remember" the origins of their songs. Here is a link to Cox's book, published in 1925, although most of the ballads seem to come from a decade or so earlier:

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/n7/mode/2up

Here is an example of a biographical sketch of one of the ballad singers represented in Cox, named George W. Cunningham of Elkins, West Virginia.

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/n23/mode/2up

Cox had four ballads from him. Mr. Cunningham's memory sources don't go back as far as some of the others. For instance, he says he learned his version of Child Ballad #4, "Six Kings' Daughters", "shortly after the Civil War from Laban White, Dry Fork." Here is the link for that:

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/6/mode/2up

One of the source singers in Cox's collection is Mrs. Rachel Fogg, who was originally from Doddridge County, WVA. There were four Child Ballads obtained from her by Mrs. Hilary G. Richardson, in Clarksburgy, Harrison County, WVA, in March of 1916. They were: "Down by the Greenwood Side", "Little Johnnie Green" (Barbara Allen), "Young Collins"/"Johnny Collins", and "The House Carpenter".

In each case, Mrs. Fogg said that she had learned the ballad from her mother, and she from her mother. In one instance, she added "on back into the old country across the sea", and in another instance, she added "...on back into the old country across the sea in Scotch, Dutch, or Jerusalem, she forgets which but in this country they call'em Hebrews."

Here are the links:

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/28/mode/2up

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/108/mode/2up

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/110/mode/2up

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/146/mode/2up

Here is an account of Cox's visit with Mrs. Fogg:

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/n27/mode/2up

And here is a picture of Mrs. Fogg:

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/112/mode/2up

Here is some more information from J.H. Cox's collection. He has four ballads from Mrs. Elizabeth Tapp Beck, of Morgantown in Monongalia County, which were collected in March of 1916. There is "Lord Thomas and Fair Eleanor," "The House Carpenter," "Home Came The Old Man (#274)," and "The Golden Willow Tree." Cox says that she said that she learned these songs from her mother, Mrs. Thomas H. Tapp, who learned it from her mother, Mrs. Elizabeth Wade Mack, who lived "near Bethel Church" near Easton. Here are the links:

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/64/mode/2up

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/148/mode/2up

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/154/mode/2up

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/170/mode/2up

Continuing with some more information from John Harrington Cox's West Virginia collection in "Folk Songs of the South", here are several sources which seem to go back a ways.

Cox has "The King's Daughter" or "The False Lover" from Miss Mildred Joy Barker, of Morgantown in Monongalia County, WVA, on October 2, 1916, which was "obtained from her mother, whose family came to Monongalia County before the Revolution. Its members have known the ballad for years."    Here is the link:

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/12/mode/2up

Cox has another version of this ballad (#4) called "Pretty Polly" sent to him by Mrs. Anna Copley, of Shoals in Wayne County, WVA, on December 19, 1915, "dictated by her cousin Mr. Burwell Luther, who learned it from his mother about fifty years ago. Mrs. Luther's name was Julia Stephenson. She learned it from her mother, whose maiden name was Peyton. The Peytons were English and the Stephensons were Highland Scotch. The Luthers and Stephensons have lived in Wayne County for over a century, the latter having come from Georgia." Here is the link:

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/8/mode/2up

Then there is a version of "Lord Randall" called "Johnny Randolph," which was "Communicated by Miss Lily Hagans, Morgantown, Monongalia County, January 20, 1916; obtained from Mrs. Beulah Ray Richey, who learned it from her mother, a member of the Caldwell family of Wheeling, a family of Irish [Scots-Irish?] descent who came to Wheeling before the Revolution." Here is the link:

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/26/mode/2up

Here are two versions of "Lord Lovel", one from a lady of English descent and one from a lady of Welsh descent. The first one, "Lord Lovel," was "Contributed by Miss Blanche Satterfield, Fairmont, Marion County, 1915; learned from her mother, who learned it from her mother, a lady of English descent, who came from Washington County, Pennsylvania."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/78/mode/2up

The second version of "Lord Lovel" was "Communicated by Miss Lucille V. Hays, Glenville, Gilmer County, November 22, 1916; obtained from her mother, who learned it from her mother, and she from her mother, Mrs. Zackwell Morgan, a lady of Welsh descent."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/82/mode/2up

Continuing with some more material from John Harrington Cox, here are three ballads collected from Mr. J. Harrison Miller, of Wardensville in Hardy County, WVA, in January and june of 1916. First there is "The Seven Sleepers" (#7), which Mr. Harrison "obtained from his mother, who learned it when a girl from Scotch Roach."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/18/mode/2up

Then there is "Johnny Randolph" (#12), which was "obtained from his mother; learned from Susan Stewart; she, from her stepfather, John Jennings, who came from England."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/24/mode/2up

And then there is the version of "Lord Thomas", which Richie called our attention to above. This ballad was "obtained from his mother, who learned it from her mother, Mrs. Lucinda Ellis, who learned it from her grandmother, Mrs. Strawnsnider. Mr. Miller thinks the ballad has been known in the family for about two hundred years."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/56/mode/2up

Here are two ballads from Mrs. J.J. Haines of Parkersburg in Wood County, WVA, collected in January of 1916. There is a version of "Fair Annie and Gregory" (#76). Mrs. Haines said, "I have heard these old ballads sung form my earliest recollection by my grandparents and others. Grandfather's name was Benjamin Franklin Roberts; grandmother's name was Mary Leatherman Roberts. Grandfather's mother was a descendant of the Franklins, but I do not know whether of Benjamin Franklin's father's family, or a brother. My ancesters on both sides came to America in the time of the colonization."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/82/mode/2up

And from the same sources, Mrs. Haines had a version of "The House Carpenter" :

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/148/mode/2up

Here are five versions of "The Wife of Usher's Well" that have some interesting "remembered" lineages. The first one is called "A Moravian Song", and illustrates something of the history of the relationships between the Scots-Irish and the German immigrants in WVa. It was contributed by Miss Bettie R. Loy, of Glebe, in Hampshire County, WVA, in February of 1916. Miss Loy writes: "I am sending you a song that my mother learned of her mother, who was of Dutch descent, but either she or her parents learned it of a Moravian preacher and she called it a Moravian song."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/88/mode/2up

The second version was called "Lady Gay", and was contributed by John B. Adkins of Branchland, in Lincoln County, WVA, in February, 1916. He learned it "when a child from an aunt, who learned it from her mother."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/90/mode/2up

The third example of this ballad was communicated by Mr. Decker Toney, of Queen's Ridge, in Wayne Count, WVA, in January of 1916. It was "learned from his mother, who learned it from her mother, Hannah Moore, and she, from her mother, Hannah Ross, who was born in Virginia." Back when Hannah Ross was born, West Virginia was still a part of Virginia, so it is not clear what this reference might mean. But it seems to imply what was once known as "East Virginia" or the eastern part of Virginia. See the previous link for this version which is "D".

The fourth and fifth versions were collected by the same person. They were communicated by Miss Mary M. Atkeson, of Morgantown in Monongalia county, WVA, in December of 1915. The first one ("E") was "obtained from Mr. Joseph H. Spicer, Spring Gap, in Hampshire County, WVA; learned from his mother, who learned it from her grandmother, who came from Ireland."

The last version ("G") was "obtained from Mr. A.G. Springer, Farmington, Marion County; dictated by his mother, who learned it from her mother, a lady of Welsh and English ancestry, who came from Pennsylvania."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/92/mode/2up

In 1916, Cox had two ballads collected by Miss Lalah Lovett, of Bulltown in Braxton County, WVA. The first one was a version of "Barbara Ellen", "obtained from Mrs. Cora Starkey, Harrison County, who learned it when a child from her parents; they learned it in Virginia from their parents, who were of English descent."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/100/mode/2up

The second ballad collected by Miss Lovett, was a version ("J") of "The House Carpenter", which was also obtained from Mrs. Cora Starkey.

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/148/mode/2up

Here are a few more Child Ballads from John Harrington Cox's collection from WVA. The first one is a version of "The Maid Freed from the Gallows" called "By a Lover Saved". It was communicated to Cox by Mr. Harold Staats, of Ripley, in Jackson County, WVA, in 1921, Mr. Staats wrote: "This song was told, or rather sung, to me by some person living on Tug Fork. It is claimed that this song was brought to this country by Captain William Parsons, one of the early settlers. According to legends it was at one time a popular folk song in the British Isles."
An interesting account. Parsons was one of the first settlers who came over the Alleghenies to settle in what is now Tucker County, WVA.

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/118/mode/2up

Then we have a version of Child #155 called "It Rained a Mist", which was "Communicated by Miss Violet Hiett, Great Cacapon, Morgan County, February, 1917; obtained from her father, who learned it when a child from his mother."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/120/mode/2up

Another version of Child #155 ("I") came from Mr. Richard Elkins Hyde, of Martinsburg, in Berkeley County, WVA, in December of 1916. It was "obtained from his mother, who learned it from her mother, who had it from her mother, a lady of good Scotch-Irish stock from Wardensville, Hardy County."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/126/mode/2up

Here are two rarer ballads that Cox found in West Virginia. The first one is Child #199, "The Bonnie House O' Airlie" and the second one is Child #201, "Bessie Bell and Mary Gray." The first one was "Contributed by Miss Fannie Eagan, Hinton, Summers County, January 12, 1917, learned from Miss Amelia Bruce, who was born and bred in Edinburgh, came to America about twenty years previously, and recently returned to Scotland to remain there." This example is of interest not because it documents an early date necessarily, but because it documents an example of the actual transmission of a ballad from Scotland to America.

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/128/mode/2up

The second ballad was "Communicated by Miss Eva Hughes, Spencer, Roane County, December 7, 1915; obtained from her mother, whose maiden name was Elmira Grisell, born near Malaga, Ohio, in 1837. She learned it from her mother, who was Elizabeth Adams, daughter of Ann Hazlett and Jonathan Adams (English) of Massachusetts. Elizabeth's parents died when she was a child, and she was brought up by her aunt, Betsy Adams, Horne, Darby, Pennsylvania."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/134/mode/2up

There are two more examples of Child #243, "The House Carpenter". One was "communicated by Mr. Greenland Thompson Federer, Morgantown, Monongalia County, January 1917; taken from an old manuscript song book owned by Lizzie Kelly, Independence. A name at the end of the ballad seems to indicate that it was taken down from the dictation of Mary Guseman."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/140/mode/2up

The second example called "Salt Water Sea" ("Q") was "communicated by Miss Sallie Evans, Randolph County, 1916; obtained from Mr. Guy Marshall, who got it from his mother, who learned it from her mother."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/148/mode/2up

There is version of "The Suffolk Miracle" (Child #272) called "A Lady near New York Town." It was contributed by Miss Polly McKinney, of Sophia in Raleigh County, WVA, in 1919. Miss McKinney wrote: "Grandma Lester taught me the song when I was a little child. Grandma is eighty-five years old. She says the song is very old. Her mother taught it to her when she was a little girl."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/152/mode/2up

Mr. Wallie Barnett of Leon, in Mason County, WVA, contributed a version of Child #277, called "Dandoo." He learned it from his grandfather "about the year 1898" His grandfather "was of English descent, a native of Gilmer County. The last stanza was furnished by some teacher whose name was not secured." (Cox)

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/158/mode/2up

And finally, my last example from Cox is a version of Child #275, "Get Up And Bar The Door", called "Old John Jones." Cox says: "this excellent text, agreeing well with Child B, was reported by Mr. Carey Woofter, Glenville, Gilmer County, September, 1924. It was taken down from the recitation of Mrs. Sarah Clevenger of Briar Lick Run, near Perkins, Gilmer County. She learned it from her grandmother, Mrs. Rebecca Clevenger, who came from Loudon County, Virginia, seventy-eight years ago, as the date in the family Bible gives it."

http://archive.org/stream/folksongsofsouth00coxj#page/516/mode/2up

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 10:44 AM

For some reason, I seemed to have lost my cookie for several of the previous posts this morning. "Guest" was me - John Minear.

Does anyone want to take a stab at analyzing the Cox materials and hazarding a guess on which of these examples might go back to the 1700's?

Also, does anyone have handy a list of those Child ballads found in America which had "died out" in Britain and Scotland?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 02:34 PM

It certainly makes for a very interesting study, John. As far as dodgy lineages go, I can see no reason whatsoever here to doubt any of Cox's contributors. It seems pretty obvious to me that being able to trace lineages and songs back through a line was very important to these people, and Cox did us a great service by actually asking for the information.

The next step as I would see it is did Cox inspire or was he inspired by any of the other collectors in a similar manner.

You could hazard a decent average date for how far back this goes by using what the current mean span of years for a generation is. It used to be loosely 25 years, but I'm sure some demographer will have worked out a more precise figure for the area and period. Unfortunately the key starting point figure doesn't seem to be present, the singer's age. Sod's law!

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 02:40 PM

Mountaineers were notorious elsewhere for their youthful marriages. I'd be kind of surprised if most married women in the Appalachians in the 19th C. hadn't had a child by age 19.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 02:43 PM

Jonathan,
The only sticking point for me is I'm pretty certain it's about 1750, probably one of those 3-4 column broadsheet pieces with about 20-odd verses produced by the likes of Dicey and Marshall, or a garland piece, probably printed in Bristol. Obviously as everyone knows it is taken directly from the Isabella story sans pot of basil. Therefore it obviously has many parallels on the continent, one of Child's pet criteria. I disagree with Belden who tried to link it to one or more of the German poetic versions. I think it's straight from the Decameron which had had many cheap reprints in English well before 1750.

Then again there are plenty of other pieces like this in Child (e.g., Keach i' the Creel) and plenty of dodgy pieces which Child even identified as such.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 03:49 PM

John/Richie
From the Ballad List. A member, Dolores, does a weeekly list of ballad books/folklore that's currently on eBay. There's a very interesting book on there at the moment that might interest you. I'm not buying at the moment and it's your side of the pond so shipping costs would be prohibitive anyway. It's only $19 and is a catalogue by Lowens of pre 1821 American songsters and looking at one of the pages it actually looks as though it's listing and describing the ballads. One page shown includes The House Carpenter.

Check out 290700514847

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 03:54 PM

Sorry, got the ballad wrong, it's 'Gosport Tragedy'=The Cruel Ship Carpenter, which of course isn't a Child Ballad, but there may be some in there. Worth checking out anyway.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Richie
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 06:46 PM

Hi,

TY for the tip Steve.

Here a version of Lord Lovel that according to the source- Mrs. Sutton (Brown Collection) who is reliable- and has a book written about her, dates back to c.1776:

E. 'Lord Lovel.' Another text of Mrs. Sutton's finding, sung this time by Mrs. Farthing of Beech Creek, Watauga county, who traced it back as a family memory to Revolutionary times. Upon Lord Lovel's query as to why Lady Nancy died, Mrs. Farthing commented : "He knew why she died. He just axed that to fool people. I bet he married somebody else in three months." This version lacks the closing stanzas, ending with Lord Lovel's query and the people's answer. One stanza is perhaps worth quoting:

Lord Lovel he stayed one year and a day,
One year and a day stayed he,
When tired and worn, with a broke down steed,
He came to his native countree.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 07:52 PM

> "He knew why she died. He just axed that to fool people. I bet he married somebody else in three months."

This kind of "folk criticism" is far too rare. Collectors - artifact-oriented as they were - weren't very curious about what their informants thought a song meant, or what they thought about the characters.

Most regrettable.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 12:44 PM

Richie, thanks for the "Lord Lovel" reference. And with regard to counting generations, how is that determined? People lived a lot longer than 25 years. If a song was collected in 1915, and no we don't usually get a person's age with this, but assuming that the singer was 70 years old and thus born in 1840, which is not unreasonable, and that this person learned a song as a youngster, say at age 10, or about 1850, from a parent who was probably at least 30 by then, that parent would have been perhaps born in 1810. If that mother learned it from her mother when she was young, say 20 years earlier, that would put the ballad back into the 1700's, around 1790. Now we might assume that the grandmother of the original singer had learned it sometime before 1790, and perhaps as far back as 1760..... And if the 1915 singer had actually learned this song from his grandmother,...this would have been impossible! She would have been long dead before her grandson was born! It is interesting to speculate on the different possibilities.

My grandfather was born in 1876 and would have been about 39 years old in 1915. But his father was born about 1819. His father's father was born in 1790. This last person died in 1881. My grandfather would have been about five years old when his grandfather died. There are enough significant overlaps in these generations to be able to assume that my grandfather could have learned a ballad that came from his grandfather. His grandfather's father was born in 1738/39 and died in 1830. Four generations would definitely put this back into the earlier part of the 1700's. And I could have easily learned the ballad from my grandfather, if only they had sung ballads, which they didn't!

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 01:49 PM

John, Jonathan, Richie,
Yes we are fishing in the dark with a great lack of information and there are lots of possibilies that can be factored in such as large Victorian families and indeed the large families in the mountain areas of America. Husbands at times being quite a lot older than wives. The safest thing is perhaps to get some solid demographic and social history info and work from averages. One thing is fairly probable and that is where songs have been learnt from parents they will have been picked up at an early age, especially where extended families have been living in close proximity without the interference of mass media.

One important factor to look at with Lord Lovel is the fact that various comic versions and burlesques were popular in the early 19thc.
With burlesques it wasn't always the case that the words were altered. Often the song was only comic in its grotesque delivery.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 12 - 06:34 AM

There is another version, a manuscript of Lord Lovel dated 1812, which was published by Belden in 1906. This version, in all likeliness, dates back to the 1700s. Since it resembles the broadside versions, it seem they were in oral circulation much early than 1846.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 12 - 07:14 AM

> Husbands at times being quite a lot older than wives.

For an extreme example:

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/01/president-tyler-grandson-alive.html

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 01 May 12 - 09:45 AM

That was me.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 May 12 - 12:52 PM

Excellent example.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 04:46 PM

Hello everyone. John Minear here. It has been a long time. The last post, above was from Steve on May 1, 2012. I have enjoyed re-reading this thread today seven years later. I am frankly amazed at the amount of work we put into this. And some of it was definitely ground-breaking, or at least had not been done before.

At the time I was asking the question that drove this thread about documentation for Child ballads in the US in the 18th century, I didn't really go into why I was interested in this. I was looking for "old" songs and tunes that pre-dated the American Revolution that would have been sung out on the "frontiers" of the colonies. From my re-reading, it appears that we came up with very few candidates but a strong suspicion for a lot more that was not documented.

I was looking for songs/tunes that I could use in a project that I had begun back then, which was to write a song cycle about one of my ancestors, named "John Minear" who came over here in 1732 at the age of 2 and lived in PA and VA and later WVA. I completed my first song in 2013, called "Hacker's Creek" which was about the death of John Minear in a Shawnee ambush in WVA. Since then I have filled out his life with seven other songs. I ended up having to use later tunes, but I tried to choose ones that, at least in my imagination, seemed to capture that earlier period of 1730-1781. You can hear these songs on SoundCloud here if you are interested:
https://soundcloud.com/user-750894349/sets/the-john-minear-song-cycle

This has been a very rewarding project for me and I have learned a lot about the history of PA and VA and a lot about Colonial and Native American relations. I hope that you might enjoy some of these songs. This long thread was my way into doing this project and I thank all of you for your work on it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 21 Apr 19 - 10:50 AM

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