More stuff about the circle of 5ths

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 10:17 AM

Good post, Suibhne Astray, but you left out the part about 'up North, as to compared to 'Free State'. All I was saying, was there were some Celts who would 'beg to differ' that they are Brits. Right??

GfS

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Snuffy
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 08:16 AM

The British Isles take their name from the Ancient Britons, celtic tribes who conquered the islands about 2500 year ago

Scots, Irish and Welsh inhabit the "British" Isles in the same way that Mexicans, Brazilians, Paraguayans, etc inhabit the continent of "America" even though the much more powerful Anglo-Saxon neighbours of both groups tend to treat the area and the name as their own.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 08:08 AM

[Sweet Georgia Brown]

And, whether, you like it or not, it is a cyclical progression - and a circular diagram explains how it works very easily.

It doesn't go round the circle. Stays within one-third of it, going back and forth. It isn't "cyclical" in any sense except that you can repeat it.

For all the grand claims about enlightening the circle diagram is, you'd think someone other than me would have come up with even one example of something the circularity actually clarifies? All I see it doing is muddling people up with irrelevancies.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 07:09 AM

It's more complex than that really. Irishness is only one small part of Britain's multi-cultural & multi-ethnic make-up. It doesn't end in Ireland either, as it permeates British culture, and not just on the western coast of England (Lancashire) where it is admittedly prevelant and cherished, but by no means exclusively so. I myself have East Coast Tyneside Irish roots, but my only glimpse of the Emerald Isle was caught on a childhood holiday to the Isle of Man. Celtic culture on the British mainland is informed by Scotland, Wales and Cornwall but to what extent it exists above the romantic mists and nominal bi-lingual road-signs that mark the borders is difficult to say really. Experience tells me things are more solidly Celtic in Wales, but that doesn't mean the kids are playing crwths and pibgorns, which are, in any case, pretty recent reinventions. Even as recently as 20 years ago punters would ask me what that funny instrument was that I was playing; these days they're likely to tell you: ah! a crwth! (though Folkies still persist that anything played with a bow that isn't a fiddle must be a bowed psaltery, bless 'em!)

In the end it's all down to how people think of themselves as individuals rather than in terms of culture, folk-spurious or otherwise. I think it was Hamish Henderson who pointed out that before one can be truly National, one must first be International. I'd say that applies to being British too - before I can celebrate my Irish / Scottish / Northumbrian / Saxon heritage, I must first acknowledge that I share my soil with a multiplicity of ethnicities and cultures; that Britishness is also Asian, Chinese, Carribean, Jewish, Roma, Polish etc. There are no absolutes, just individuals, which maybe accounts for the sort of pedantry one finds in Nationalists, Folkies and Pagans, who are invariably people inclined to cultural correctness, fearful of the more feral & fluid nature of Actual British Culture both high and low which really couldn't care about identity above and beyond the normalcy of everyday life. In real terms, there is little room for The Celtic Twilight save dressing up as a Leprichaun on Saint Patrick's day and getting bladdered on Beamish stout in an Irish theme pub in Manchester whilst bawling along to Danny Boy.

All my Scottish friends live in England; the only friends I have in Scotland are English. Go figure!

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 04:43 AM

Yes...and maybe the Brits consider the Celts as Brits...but a whole lot of the Irish may not agree with you!
So, I guess we're back to square one.

GfS

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 04:00 AM

/////josepp: "////When it comes to folk music, most American folk music has British Island roots..."

There might be a few Celts who would take issue with that!!!

The Celts are British Islanders too; it's the way it works over here in terms of the various contrivances of disparate national / regional identity and the historical provenance thereof. One would, in any case, have thought the most objection to the statement that most American folk music has British Island roots would come from the Africans.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 02:15 AM

...no, it was just the mirror.

GfS

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 01:14 AM

I think somone has snapped. . . .

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 08:55 AM

/////josepp: "////When it comes to folk music, most American folk music has British Island roots..."

There might be a few Celts who would take issue with that!!!
..and if you don't know about the 'Why's' and 'wheres' and 'who's'...you'll have to research it...'cuz I'm not getting into it!

GfS //////

GfS, I didn't say that. You attributed someone else's statement to me and I am not in agreement with that statement.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 08:31 AM

///And I am waiting for Jack Campin to suggest that the circles of Hell are better represented as ladder///

I'm waiting for him to say that in geometry a line is superior to a circle and that pi is just a lot of overrated bunk and that things were much better before the Greeks started investigating it.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 06:56 AM

Jeez Al...You do keep some erudite company..
Egotistical
rude
underemployed
dismal
irritable
Trite
ever so tedious.

I don't know about Josepp,who did seem to be making an effort to let those of us with no degree in music, or without years of practical gigging experience,take some small steps along the path to enlightenment.
But some of the other contributors just seemed to get a little jealous that someone had taken the time to make that effort..
so getting back to the subject is there anyone who hasn't yet posted their full academic qualifications or dropped in the right number of obscure book titles to prove they are important too?
Oh sorry no it wasn't about that was it?

ps anyone else reading this thread...folk music is great if you are playing it or listening to it ...the god awful tedium only comes when folks start waving their willies about it ..

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 05:00 AM

I appreciate your efforts josepp. I'll print it off and read it again.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 12:24 AM

Hey....(cough cough).....(shifting of weight from side to side)...ummm...(clears throat)....I just wanted to say......Oh, do I have to??.......Ahem..........Jeez, this is harder than I thought....(Closes eyes, holds breath.........blurts out)...Don Firth is right about this one!.....(gasp)...OK, I said it!


Regards!

GfS

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 11:45 PM

Now THAT's FUNNY!!

Also, good advice. The Circle of Fifths is a useful concept. Ignore the heap of goatfeathers on this thread, which is making it sound far more complicated that it really is. Just Goodle it, look at an illustrations of it, and you can dope it out.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Chord Chucker
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 11:34 PM

With no offense to anyone intended, I feel that I should point out that even for someone with intimate familiarity with the circle of 5ths, it is hard to make sense out of most of the discussion here.

For anyone that doesn't understand the circle, and would like to, I advise that you simple Google it, and skim the various results until you find one that is easy for you to understand.

As to this thread, I can only offer Dante's famous admonition "Abandon hope all ye who enter here."

(And I am waiting for Jack Campin to suggest that the circles of Hell are better represented as ladder)

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 01:12 PM

////No mention of F in josepp's chart, which goes

C       D       Eb       E       G       Bb////

First, sorry, Al, for the bad condition of the chart. The Mudcat software scattered it up and wouldn't prints parts of it and so it just looks like shit and so I understand your confusion and I am sorry for that. It's damned near impossible to use without the headers of the chart which wouldn't print off correctly so I had to eliminate them.

C is the root, D is the 2nd (passing note), Eb is the minor 3rd, E is the major 3rd, G is the 5th and Bd is the 7th. Now you wouldn't play all these at once. The passing note is only play with the minor 3rd chord (which would be C Eb G, in this case). And these relationships are true of each row--root, passing note, minor 3rd, major 3rd, 5th and 7th.

This chart enables you to construct majors, minors and 7ths and to use the passing note with the minors if you are inclined to do that (which depends on whether it embellishes the piece or not). It sounds a little off from the other notes and the circle of 5ths shows us why--the other notes are next to each other on the circle but the passing note skips a spot. Why use it? It introduces a nice effect in the right context. Jazz bassists use it all the time. I imagine (but am guessing) that the more musically astute folkies use it at times as well. I suppose Will Fly or Don Firth can answer that. I can't.

There's no F in the sequence because F isn't part of the C major, minor or 7th chords. Now this chart is not dependent on the circle of 5ths. Really, you don't need to know what the circle of 5ths is to use that chart BUT the circle of 5ths shows you WHY that chart works.

Any note on the circle can be the root or I. The note directly to the counterclockwise is always the IV or that root. The note directly to the clockwise of the root is always the V. Then it alternates every other note to the vi and vii (lower case because they will always form minor chords which I, IV and V will always form major chords). That's why I told you to copy that one link that shows those relationships on the circle because that particular scheme is very useful. It's not mine but kudos to whoever came up with it.

When I first learned the chord layout of D G C F Bb Eb Ab Db F# B E A Eb Ab C# F# B E A D G C F Bb, I had no trouble memorizing it because I already knew my circle of 5ths and this layout basically follows it in reverse (technically making it a circle of 4ths). Look at the beauty of it: two consectuive notes in the sequence are the ii and V of the scale of the note to the right of those two--DGC GCF CFBb FBbEb and so on. And that's how it's laid out on the circle. ii-V is important to know because it is so musical that you can redo almost any song in this format to make it sound bluesy-jazzy-sexy. Whenever you hear someone cover a song in a way that makes you wonder, "How'd he come up with that sound?" That's how. He used the circle of 5ths. It is the secret to making music sound musical.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 12:52 AM

Don Firth: "Exactly!!
Major news bulletin! GfS and I are in complete agreement on something!!"

I'm going to save it, print it...and frame it on the wall!

..just HAD to include that!!!...(wink)

GfS

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 12:51 AM

Don Firth: "Exactly!!
Major news bulletin! GfS and I are in complete agreement on something!!"

..Well, because it's music. I told you that you should stick to it. music unites.....politics divides!

You have heard my pieces, I believe?..Simple in structure, but more thought out, and worked in arrangement.

Hey, guess what ol' Don...Regards!

GfS

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Mar 12 - 08:11 PM

It's Really Pretty Simple

John

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Mar 12 - 04:39 PM

It's that sickening THUD that makes me tend to prefer the circle.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Chord Chucker
Date: 30 Mar 12 - 02:39 PM

s&r brought up a most important point about the circle--the chords are sevenths, and as each chord is both the tonic chord in it's own key, and the dominant in the key of the subsequent chord. (G7 resolves to C7 which resolves to F7 which resolves to Bb7 and on around the circle), so they lead into each other, infinitely.

This is the circular part: each dominant chord resolves to a dominant chord, which, because it is unresolved, resolves to the next--as long as you want to go around.

If you want to see how it works, all you have to do is play thru -- C7-F7-Bb7-Eb7-Ab7-Db7-F#7(Gb7)-B7-E7-A7-G7-and C7 around again.

The difference between this and a ladder is that when you get to the top of the ladder, you've got to fall eleven steps to get the first one--

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: NightWing
Date: 30 Mar 12 - 03:04 AM

Big Al:

Here's how to use the Circle of 5ths:

You are used to playing three-chord "Song X" in G (G, C, D). You're at a jam session and someone across the way says "Song X ... in B". Two seconds to join in or not: what will the chords be? Glance at a Circle of 5ths chart, or "look" at the chart in your head: B, E, F#. And you're off.

If you already know this, then you already know 90% of what the Circle has to teach you. Looking at the design and thinking about it can give you a deeper understanding of why some things work and others don't. But it's not necessary.

But it's just a tool. If you've already got the bolt tightened, you don't need a wrench ... except that there might be another bolt.

Josepp:

Ignore the interruptions. Just finish what you intend to say about the Circle and don't respond to the asides ... and the other pedants. *G*

BB,
NightWing

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 09:30 PM

If you want the C minor scale

Start from C

then progress until you've got

Everything about it is appealing

from theres no business like show business!

Play the same notes slow and you've got RyCooders solo in He'll have to go and the solo from Sultans of swing.

songs - I understand - circle of fifths remains a mystery.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 06:23 PM

Actually needs an Ab in there to complete it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 06:20 PM

Actually, Big Al, that looks to me like a Cm scale.

That would be the relative minor of the Eb major scale, which, on the guitar, I don't use a helluva lot. At least not without whippin' out the handy-dandy capo.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 03:38 PM

No mention of F in josepp's chart, which goes

C       D       Eb       E       G       Bb

seeems pretty random to me.

What is that supposed to mean - how am I going to use it?

I'm sure you guys know what you're talking about

I tend to think - if you're hopeful of creating something as important as Sweet Georgia brown - which has fired the imgination and drawn a creative response from so many musicians - there are more obvious starting points.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 03:13 PM

"Why reinvent the wheel?"

Excellent, Stu!

####

Outrageous!!

Maggie, thanks a million! Several million, in fact! I shall do that!

You are an absolute jewel!

It never occurred to me that Stan Boreson might still be with us. His parodies, complete with heavy "Scandihoovian" accent used to crack me up when I heard him on radio and TV decades ago. It was Boreson's accent thing that inspired me to start singing "The Frozen Logger" that way, which sort of made the song.

When Patti McLaughlin and I were doing the "Ballads and Books" series on KCTS-TV in 1959, we had both Ivar Haglund and James Stevens (who wrote "The Frozen Logger") as guests on the show. Haglund and Stevens were old friends. And in the course of the show, I sang "The Frozen Logger," and being chicken with Stevens right there, I sang it straight, without the accent. Later, when we gathered in "the green room," I sang it for Stevens again, with the exaggerated "Scandihoovian" accent. And Steven wound up rolling on the floor with laughter.

"Yes!" he said. "I wish I'd thought of that! Keep doing it that way!"

I shall contact Stan Boreson right away and get a copy of the CD.

Again, many, many thanks, Maggie!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: s&r
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 02:45 PM

So many progressions can be understood via the circle of fifths: it was only after following the circle that I suddenly understood about resolving discords better than I ever had.

Jack's ladder is only substituting one mnemonic for another - if you're not going all the way around it doesn't matter in playing terms which you use.

I find the circle is easy to visualize and is used almost universally - why re-invent the wheel.

Stu

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 02:16 PM

The "Sweet Georgia Brown" example is a four-step ladder, not a circle.

Jack, you're just being pedantic. The use that I've indicated - and which was explained to me by an experienced older jazz musician many, many years ago - was immensely helpful to me in understanding progressions.

And, whether, you like it or not, it is a cyclical progression - and a circular diagram explains how it works very easily. I'm not interested in the finer points of degrees or ladders anything else.

Al - it's called a cycle of '5ths' - the five you mentioned - because, when drawing it out, the intervals between each note/chord on the circle are 5 scale notes apart. So, G - which leads into C on the circle - is the 5th note on the scale above C (in the key of C).

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 01:40 PM

I can remember the days when i used to play around with a great tool and break all the rules........ahhhh!

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 01:40 PM

I'm still searching for the words to his hilarious parody of "The Streets of Laredo," entitled "The Streets of Stavanger." A dying fisherman, all wrapped up in oilskins, dying of—sea sickness.

Don Firth, this is your lucky day! I read that last night and thought - "there must be a way to find these words." So I looked all over and didn't find anything.

This morning I simply called Stan Boreson and asked if he had recorded that song. He and his wife looked through their CDs and told me yes, he had recorded it. I should have thought to simply try http://www.stanboreson.com/ before calling, but it was lovely to speak to a childhood hero. :-)

I told him about you, that you are a wonderful guitarist and teacher and have a great voice, so if you do something with this song I hope you'll link it somewhere and send the link to Stan.

"Streets of Stavanger" is on the CD Ay Don't Give A Hoot.

$15 for the disk and $3 shipping.

Maggie

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 01:23 PM

Exactly!!

Major news bulletin! GfS and I are in complete agreement on something!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 01:21 PM

Sweet Georgia Brown - yes, I've got that. Where does five come in?

We'll deal with the precise goemetric shape when we've established what five is about?

Keep it simple, for I am a bear of very little brain.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 12:58 PM

I agree with Will Fly, Jack, and Al(that big ol' masher). it is a tool, when needed. Also, as it was run down to me, "You should LEARN the tools, know how to use them, just like the 'rules' in music, Learn the rules, then you can break them to get what you want, instead of being limited."

GfS

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 10:57 AM

The "Sweet Georgia Brown" example is a four-step ladder, not a circle. There are longer ladders in untempered Renaissance music.

josepp's table (28 Mar 12 - 05:54 PM) doesn't actually use the circle of fifths at all. Everything in it would still hold in a system that didn't close round on itself. He even uses double flats, which are a concept derived from untempered music.

The circle of fifths does two things, neither of which anybody here has given any use for in the sort of music Mudcat is about.

One is undoubtedly musical: it closes, so you can modulate round the circle to where you started and use enharmonics to extend the range of chords and progressions available (as in pieces like Schoenberg's First Chamber Symphony and Coltrane's "Giant Steps").

The other is geometric: josepp is very insistent that a fifth measures an angle of exactly 30 degrees. I'm not holding my breath to wait for an example where that does anything at all for anybody.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 10:14 AM

Al - I'll reiterate an earlier post of mine - nothing complicated here - just demonstrates (I hope) how I found it useful:

"Where it helped me was with getting to grips with jazz 'standards', because the popular songs on which much of mainstream jazz was based, use the same progression patterns - utilising the harmonic progressions in the 5ths cycle. Once I understand that, I could follow and improvise on those tunes, and get to grips with them more easily.

So, for example, many standards start on the tonic chord, drop down to somewhere on the circle and then work their way back round the circle to finish on the tonic. Once you 'get' this, it's immensely useful. "Sweet Georgia Brown" comes to mind - let's say it's in G...

Starts with a preliminary run down from G to E7, then goes to A7, then goes to D7 and back to G briefly - that's the first 8 bars, more or less. Well, that E7-A7-D7-G riff is right on the cycle and part of a cycle which goes:

G-C-F-Bb-Eb-Ab-Db-F#-B-E-A-D-G (choose whether you want chords written as sharps or flats). So, "Sweet G B" starts in G, drops down to E in the circle and works its way back through the succeeding chords to G. Et voila! Once that clicks, you're away and a jazzer (more or less)."

So, Al - for me - the 5ths cycle was the key to understanding some of basics of tunes used in mainstream jazz.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 09:48 AM

There are lots of great tools - we live in a world of great tools.

Your idea of a great tool may - the very thought of it might be a bit of a turn off.

Open tunings for example, playing with slides, amplification, signal processing, guitars, notation, acompaniment, level of committment to performance, interest in the origins of folksong, chromatic scales, modal scales, and so on....

You take the bits seriously you want. I'll take the bits I want. No ones got the whole package - some are mutually exclusive.

As Eddie condon said - the modern jazz guys flatten their fifths - we consume ours. We don't play the same style of music - but in terms of what he produced - i can't think of another artist I would rather have been than Condon.

What would this circle of fifths do for me? The explanations are somewhat opaque

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,testpattern
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 03:46 AM

Dang, I was hoping I'd finally figure out why I was supposed to memorize the circle of 5ths. I suppose some mysteries just aren't meant to be solved.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 03:25 AM

josepp: "////When it comes to folk music, most American folk music has British Island roots..."

There might be a few Celts who would take issue with that!!!
..and if you don't know about the 'Why's' and 'wheres' and 'who's'...you'll have to research it...'cuz I'm not getting into it!

GfS

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 03:12 AM

Big Al Whittle: "Just because someone whips out a great tool, it doesn't mean I'll go out with him. In fact I think that's out of place in many relationships."

Why, you sweet talkin' fool. you!...Are you trying to hit on me???

Wink,

GfS

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 03:11 AM

Jack Campin not withstanding.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 02:50 AM

I think the circle of 5ths divides people who are serious about writing,arranging, and playing music from people who are just playing around with it.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 02:30 AM

Yes indeed, these days there's too little ignoring going on. In an iage of great tools, ignorance is the only viable option.

Just because someone whips out a great tool, it doesn't mean I'll go out with him. In fact I think that's out of place in many relationships.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 02:13 AM

The 'circle of 5ths' is a GREAT tool...and should not only be utilized, but memorized! Invaluable to composers who wish to play beyond puerile simplistic pieces, that lazy musicians get stuck in a rut with!
Think of it a a tow chain, to get you unstuck! Those who 'poo-poo' it are just lazy and unimaginative, boring and proud of it! Ignore them!!
Besides, their 'music' is usually very ignorable, anyway!

GfS

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 12:50 AM

Now that you mention it, GUEST, you're right. The Circle of Fifths is a good learning tool for beginners, as I keep saying, and in that sense it was promising.

But certainly not in Josepp's means of expression. I should have seen it coming.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 12:22 AM

He started out with "Yeah, more stuff about the goddamn circle of 5ths so shut yer bloody, fookin' pieholes!" which wasn't that promising.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 07:11 PM

Josepp, don't be an ass.

I am fully aware of the rich musical heritage that this country has--inherited from its immigrant population.

And you are attributing meanings to what I said that are beyond what I actually said.

This whole thread started out being promising, and then it went all pear-shaped. Not your fault initially, but with your current jingoistic attitude, you're not helping NOW. Give it a rest!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 06:00 PM

////When it comes to folk music, most American folk music has British Island roots. I think a whole army of American folklorists would say that strongly in chorus.////

If you're so Eurocentric in your views that the only American folk music that matters is white people's, if you can so blatantly ignore the huge contributions of Latins, Indians, and blacks that you even think Django Reinhardt invented jazz, it is you who is chauvinistic and probably a racist as well.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 05:54 PM

ii-V can also be played without the 7th. One can play D F A D / G B D G instead of D F A C / G B D F. One can play in 4ths--D A / G D where D and A are called lower 5th and upper 5th respectively. Those notes are all lined up next each other on the circle--ii-vi-V-ii.

ii is a chord in its own right as is V. But are also part of another scale. D G C F, for example. D is ii and G is V of the scale of C major. Notice C is the next note in the sequence I listed. Like wise, you can look at G and C and the note to the right is F and so that is the scale that G and C are ii and V of. And so through all 24 arrangements.

Sometimes we play a pattern of the ii minor as 1 2 3 5 8 7 6 5. The 2 is called a "passing note." So using D G as an example, the pattern would be D E F A / G F E D. What the passing note tells us is what scale both D and G are ii and V of respectively. It will always be the major 3rd of that scale. In this case it is C since E is the major 3rd of C major.

If you look at a circle of 5ths, you'll that D and G are ii and V of C major. And E is the major 3rd. C, G and D are lined up in sequence clockwise while the passing note skips one more note over. The following circle of 5ths is wonderfully done and shows the relationships of the notes. You can turn the pointer to any note of the wheel and relationships hold true. I would copy this one if I were you. An excellent reference:

http://www.jmstaehli.com/images/music/Circle_of_Fifths.jpg

The following chart shows from left to right, the root, passing note, minor 3rd, major 3rd, 5th and 7th of all the possible chords in 12-TET. Look at the root D. It's passing note is E. Now look for E in the major 3rd column (4th one over from the left) and notice the root is C. The 5th of root D is A which is the passing note of the next note on the circle of 5ths after D going counterclockwise which is G. Notice the 5th of G is the root of the D scale.

C        D        Eb        E        G        Bb
C#        D#        E        E#        G#        B
Db        Eb        Fb        F        Ab        Cb
D        E        F        F#        A        C
D#        E#        F#        Fx        A#        C#
Eb        F        Gb        G        Bb        Db
E        F#        G        G#        B        D
F        G        Ab        A        C        Eb
F#        G#        A        A#        C#        E
Gb        Ab        Bbb        Bb        Db        Fb
G        A        Bb        B        D        F
G#        A#        B        B#        D#        F#
Ab        Bb        Cb        C        Eb        Gb
A        B        C        C#        E        G
Bb        C        Db        D        F        Ab
B        C#        D        D#        F#        A

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 05:29 PM

Bingo! I think dick greenhaus just put a period to this sentence.