Getting a gig

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: GUEST, Tony Rath aka Tonyteach
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 06:57 AM

Some excellent advice here. I started in the 70s as an aspiring singer in Music Hall and was booked by a geezer called Horace Mashford at the Ally Pally Two spots for five quid in 1978 my first paying job. I did the gig - they said I was rubbish but could I come back next week and do some more By strenuous marketing and some talent I managed to get work every week after two - three years on the circuit doing old peoples homes - shows - panto and the like It takes time and effort to establish your self in any field. People have to know you -trust you and LIKE you enough to pay you

Its true in any creative or performing endeavour
my website www.tonymusicteach.co.uk

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 01:12 PM

We're all talking bollocks some of us looking up at the stars (like Seth lakeman, and The watersons)

I think Oscar Wilde said that

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: GUEST,Old boy
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 12:36 PM

.. and perhaps folks with that level of education and understanding
might already be blessed with 'a few steps up the rungs of the social ladder's' advantage
in getting booked for paying gigs..???

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: Snuffy
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 12:25 PM

Perhaps it could be denied in the same way that Dr Johnson refuted Bishop Berkeley's proof of the nonexistence of matter.

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: GUEST,Old Boy
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 10:43 AM

Fair play Snail, you can dismiss me and my daft ID games as much as you like.

But truly unblinkered spectators cannot deny the objective fundamental social analysis informing my posts....


Z zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: GUEST,Old Boy
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 10:31 AM

Z !!!!!!



...errrmm.. anyone seen where I parked my horse ?


oh bugger...




Taxi !!!

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 10:25 AM

He's still talking bollocks though.

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 10:12 AM

I see you're a bit like Zorro. You wear a mask, skewer us with your erudite bon mots. The aristos shout who was that masked man - you do one more verbal somersault, scratch your initial on a hapless victims chest and ride off into the night - leaving us gasping with amazement at your daring and cleverness!

Got it!

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: GUEST,Old boy
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 09:26 AM

Got to chuckle out loud sometimes..

For the benefit of conservative [small & big 'c'] minded conspiracy theorists..

Nope I'm not "New girl" or have the slightest clue who she is, where she's gone, or if she is even genuine.

But, yes, my latest new mudcat name for this weekend is a hastily concocted daft jokey sounding ID
that is here consistent thread specific..

Obviously I couldn't be bothered thinking up a new one for anywhere else I've posted in the past 3 days.


Next weekend I'll probably be just as bored & restless and reinvent as a new someone else for all our 'mutual amusement'.

Or might even drag one of my comfortable familar old personas out the 'dressing up' costume box.

Fear not good folks, I always try to abide by a personal rule of only being one persona at a time,
none of that multiple identity disorder malarkey
indulged in by some of you regular mischief making miscreants.

Happier now ?.

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 07:54 AM

New girl, post some music on youtube. let us know who you are and I am sure you will get more specific feedback than the generalisations we are bound to have to give with so little knowledge of your abilities. john

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: Young Buchan
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 07:34 AM

"What a load of grumpy auld farts"

I seem to recognise myself from the description, and I haven't even contributed to the discussion yet! But here goes.

NewGirl, everyone is giving you the advice 'Don't give up trying to make a living out of Folk.' I want to suggest the opposite. Please understand, I don't want to suggest your giving up because I want to see you starving on the Embankment. And since I have no idea who you are, you will understand that in no sense is this advice a judgement on your ability.

I want you to give up aiming for bookings because I want you to experience the pleasure you can get from mixing with people (grumpy auld farts and all)who inhabit folk clubs. If you go into a folk club fighting to get a booking 20% of us will resent you because we don't like that sort of thing; 75% will resent you because you are now a rival to their their own ambitions.

Give up the idea of bookings; give up the idea of publicity and promotion. Find a folk club you like. Perform there regularly for the sheer pleasure of sharing your music with people. Learn everything you can about folk music; that will take about 4 lifetimes, but don't worry about that. The more you learn, the more you will improve. Eventually, if you are any good (or at least, if what you do suits a lot of people), someone one day may ask you to sing somewhere else. They may or may not offer you money; you may or may not choose to take it. Either way you will have made a lot of friends.

And either way I will commend you.

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: BobKnight
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 06:35 AM

Guest TF and Ross Campbell. I thought about the name change a few years back, but dismissed it. They can take me as I am, and if there's no interest, well, I'll have to live with that.

If the Bob Stewart in Alyth is related to Sheila, then he's probably a distant cousin, but I've never met him. Maybe on of these days. :) Thanks guys.

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 06:30 AM

I think it was easier 40 years ago, there were more guest booking clubs.
yes, do floor spots, get good publicity etc,develop your own style, try to have a good mix of repertoire, when you do spots and gigs, make sure you have variety of keys tempo subject matter, and to some extent accompaniment, try and communicate with an audience rather than to an audience.

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 06:07 AM

> I think we either scared off a genuine newby or fed a troll

*Sigh* Bet you're right. Just in time for April Fool's Day :-/

But still, there's a wealth of great advice in this thread. Bound to be helpful to somebody else who looks in, genuinely wanting to know. No harm, I guess.

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 05:42 AM

Yes ~~ specially so with Old Boy's peculiar view of the Scene as a sort of playground for the more idle elements of the Upper Classes --

"Folk performers born outside the caste of silver spoon fed 'old school tie' social & business network"


What's going on there, exactly?

~M~

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: Megan L
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 05:16 AM

You beat me to it Snail I think we either scared of a genuine newby or fed a troll.

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 05:12 AM

Interesting to note that GUEST,New girl hasn't been back to post on this thread and has never posted anywhere else. GUEST,Old boy, on the other hand has posted here several times and has only otherwise dropped a couple of bon mots into the Galloway thread.

I wonder who they are really.

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 04:25 AM

> When I suggest places that they might hear me they often say things like, Oh I don't go to festivals!

I'm a little baffled by the fact that if she can be seen at festivals (where presumably she's booked), it suggests that she must have some gig experience...? You don't just waltz into a festival booking. Unless it's some other type of fest?

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 04:02 AM

New Girl, let me get this right - you're new to the folk scene (so presumable few people have heard of you or know your music), you know nothing about folkclubs and how they work, you've contacted a few club organisers out of the blue and suggested that they should got out of their way to festivals to see you, and because they haven't fallen over themselves to give you a paid gig you come on here and slag them off.

My advice would be, don't give up the day job, and get a little humility. Or try X Factor - you've more chance there.

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 09:37 PM

whoa stallion! that sounds like the English folk scene that I know and love....

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: stallion
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 09:26 PM

When the late and great Barry Finn came over to the UK with Ken Schatz in 2009 he sent a cd to one folk club looking for a gig and got the reply "I am sick and tired of people who think they can sing sending me cd's and asking for a gig"

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 08:24 PM

Or they might think you were this Bob Stewart -

Bob Stewart - where is he now? , writer of "Where Is Saint George? - A Search for the Pagan Imagery in British Folk Song".

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: GUEST,Guest TF
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 07:48 PM

Bob Knight. My advice would be " don't change your name to Bob Stewart. People will think you're Bob Stewart from Alyth who, if my guess is right, you're probably distantly related to."

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 05:30 PM

Try Jacey Bedford.

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 02:57 PM

Agents are a mixed blessing ! Most have NO knowledge of the Folk scene at all , and a lot of the rest have Tunnel Vision - I work in a loose conglomeration that does Costume Them shows - An agent that has booked us for a Medieval seems to be oblivious (Despite it being on the webSite AND our Paper publicity) of the fact that we do Pirate and Victorian among other things as well .

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: GUEST,Old boy
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 02:31 PM

Yes thanks, I know, but just thought it might be interesting to broaden the point out
for general relaxed exchange of opinions and experience here at mudcat..

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 02:03 PM

Once again, click my link above and scroll down a few headings and read Jacey (who is an agent as well as a performer) on the topic of when you do/don't need an agent, what agents do, etc.

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: GUEST,Old boy
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 01:23 PM

On a serious note...

For new unknown Folk performers born outside the caste of silver spoon fed 'old school tie' social & business network contacts,

are pro Managers/Agents/PR a positive benefit and worthwhile expense,
or a costly liability ?

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: GUEST,Banjiman away from home
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 01:11 PM

Nick mentioned Wendy Arrowsmith aove.I'm her husband ...... as he knows we're on Skye this weekend.

I think thethe most important thing is to immerse yourself in the folk world...... understand what is going on and where he opportunities for gigs really are. Andthen do what is equired o et them. For some clubs that means doing a floor spot, for others sending a CD or getting the organiser to watch you on You Tube is enogh.

Though Wendy is establishing herself she will generally add a cople of nights onto any tour/ gigs in other parts of the country to do floorspots/ join in singarounds etc. I think you have to enjoy the hunt as much as playing the gig. There are some places where she has been trying for 5 years to get a gig, if they've left the door open at all.

There are other places that just don't like what she does....... you just have to accept that but if it to many clus/ venues/ estivals you probably have to accept that it won't happen for you without a major re-hin of material, presentation or personnel.

The other thing we found that helped was beingprepared to put gigs on for other people. It really helps with networking.

...... and George P. is absolutely correct. Being asked to do a gig is a priviledge not a right.

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 12:37 PM

It also helps if you are EVEN BETTER than Jacey. Warning. Very few even come close. But did have to laugh on reading her page about how you need to be professional and organised - and noting that the page header (the url) read "getting gugs". I haven't had a good gug in ages.

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: Maryrrf
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 10:08 AM

Very good info in the link Bonnie posted above.

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 07:39 AM

FWIW it is the same in any other performing sector Took me two years to get established and paid in extra and TV work Ditto in writing you need to invest heavily in marketing and promotion as well

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 07:13 AM

Assume you are talking about the UK? Or do you mean the States? Where are you?

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 07:11 AM

Read, save, and take to heart the excellent advice on this page* - particularly the first link ("Getting Gigs"). Jacey's been in the biz for years and really knows what she's talking about. (Then check out the rest of the website.)

*
http://britfolk.co.uk/helpfiles.html

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 07:09 AM

If you want to perform in public and get paid - do covers of popular stuff and sing in pubs and at weddings and functions Getting publicity organised is part of your business as is getting paid. Sounds soul destroying fine but thats what the public want and will sometimes pay for This is based on pupils playing and working in the London music scene

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: matt milton
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 07:03 AM

a lot of the above posts seem to be rather overcomplicating things. Some posts seem to suggest there's an almost feudal/Masonic system of supplication towards getting a gig! As if folk club organisers were Olympian deities who can only be approached via an arcane process of worship.

It's really not that difficult. Make recordings. Play recordings to people who put on gigs. If you're good, well, people will book you.

The only slightly different thing in the folk scene - or at least the UK folk scene, can't speak for elsewhere - is that clubs tend to book gigs a surprisingly long way in advance. An awful lot of clubs will probably already be firming up their 2013 programme now!

Which, if you grew up used to playing rock gigs comes as a bit of a shock: you're used to contacting a promoter and being offered a gig in a month's time, sometimes even a couple of weeks' time. It's quite strange to be in an environment where you might be looking at a support slot in 15 months' time!

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 06:48 AM

The following is a tale of gig chasing by a band I know:-

Band enquires for a booking by e-mail with sample mp3 attachments.
Club says they do not book unknown bands without sufficient examples of music.
Band sends recently issued 60/70 minute cd.
Club says they thoroughly enjoyed and appreciated the music but they regret no booking can be offered, even through 2013.
Band considering selling roast chestnuts in London instead!

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 06:15 AM

Well, all of the above advice is valid and good. But I believe it all starts with one's own attitude. Getting a gig is not a right - it is a privilege to be earned, through a combination of being good, adaptable and humble, and of course loads of exposure via floorspots, youTube, flyers, demos etc.

Any event organiser will be put off by an artist - even successful ones - who comes across as expecting to have earned the right to a gig. Even if the have earned it.

So start by being humble. Which is not to say that you should not have belief in what you can do, only that you should not automatically expect others to share it.

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 08:15 PM

when you get a gig - its sometimes not all its cracked up to be.

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: DebC
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 03:41 PM

Thanks, Nick. It's all down to logistics and the schedule. Send me a PM or an email with the details and if I can I'll try to make it.

Cheers,
Deb

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 01:35 PM

Never mind. When you do make it big in the uk you will only have to pay 45p in the £ on your earnings instead of 50. Look on the bright side.   
FloraG.

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: Nick
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 01:34 PM

Debra, I see you are in York next March - if you are staying round York the night before you'd be welcome to come and join us for a sing - I'm afraid we aren't a paying gig - we have a weekly get together about 10 miles north of there.

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: DebC
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 01:01 PM

I started a full-time performing career in 1998. I based myself in New England (Massachusetts) and for three years, I went to every open mic within 100 mile radius of where I lived. That meant driving 5-6 nights a week to play one, two, maybe three songs. My days were spent doing research on venues to see where I might get a chance to perform and contacting those venues.

In 2003, I went over to the UK and did a couple of gigs, but the majority of my four weeks over there were floor spots. From those I got a couple more bookings for the following year.

It's really A LOT of work outside of the playing and singing and a willingness to as someone said above "not give up".

I still occasionally do an open mic here near to my home in New England and I'll turn up for a floor spot or singer's night on night off in the UK.

You can be successful. You may not get rich, but I am quite happy with the way things have turned out for me.

Debra Cowan

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: Maryrrf
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 12:31 PM

It's very difficult for an "unknown" performer to get a gig. A big problem is that it's hard to get people to turn up for someone they haven't heard of. Also if you have no track record, a club is taking a chance on whether your performance will be any good - there are plenty of people who can sing and play an instrument well, but who don't connect well with the audience. And let's not forget that there are more performers than gigs, so they will be receiving booking requests from a large number of people, many of whom do have fans who will turn up to see them.

It can be done, but it will take persistence and if you really are just at the point of trying to break in, a lot of floor spots and supporting slots. Some good advice has been given here.

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: GUEST,Old boy
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 12:16 PM

An alternative way for 'ordinary folks' to promote their singing and audition for potential gigs...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fqymcJRSbxI

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: SunrayFC
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 11:58 AM

Folk Music.....no thanx

I write my own songs....no thanx

I often sing for free.....no thanx

I can send you my CD.....no thanx


========================================

It ain't easy looking for gigs. We try to give as many "unknowns" a gig as we can, but I am not sure it does us any favours.

BUT...do not give up!

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 11:48 AM

No its not being grumpy - just realistic.

Expecting a break from the upper echelons in the folk world is a bit like expecting a fiver from a milllionaire. The reason they are millionaires is that they don't give out fivers. A fiver to another millionaire .....just maybe!

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: Megan L
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 11:22 AM

What a load of grumpy auld farts welcome to the charming world of folk music and for mercy sake DO NOT ask what it is.

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 11:18 AM

However you draw it - being a folksinger isn't what you'd call the most stable form of income.

Even really good successful blokes like Bernard Wrigley use their performing expertise in other things like acting.

You run the danger of the purists saying that you're not really a folksinger if you work in other arenas tha folk music, but really you have to look out for number one - if you want to be an artist.

If, as it seems you are experiencing problems with being accepted as one of the chosen few of folk aristocracy - then you reallly have to shift for yourself. look at what you have to offer as a artist and sell it girl.

Some folksingers work in education - taking folksong to school kids. I think Brian peters does this. Some work as session musicians. Phil Beer used to do this. Isla St Clair was a TV presenter.

If you pick up the balls and bravery to be showbiz footsoldier in folk clubs - take it wherever you can.

Subject: RE: Getting a gig
From: GUEST,Old Boy
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 10:58 AM

Hate our posh upper class folk performers ???

NO !!!

We the great unwashed mass of plebian herberts absolutely adores 'em and dreams to be just like 'em !!!