BS: George Zimmerman to be Charged (Trayvon Martin

Subject: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 03:06 PM

Florida special prosecutor Angela Corey plans to announce as early as Wednesday afternoon that she is charging neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman in the shooting of Trayvon Martin, according to a law enforcement official close to the investigation.

Article

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 03:15 PM

It's about f****** time!

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Beer
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 03:19 PM

Had me there Bobad until I opened the thread. I thought it was going to be you know who.
Adrien

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 03:41 PM

"...according to a law enforcement official close to the investigation."

Who anonymously leaked this without permission... making it NOT official yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 03:48 PM

I hope they also charge NBC with *something* for editing the 911 call before they put the audio on a national news broadcast. They really stirred up some bad shit by doing it. Firing a high level guy and apologizing for "a bad mistake" just doesn't cut it for stirring up racial hatred the way they did. It's not just shameful, it's criminal in my opinion. People could have lost their lives over that crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 04:43 PM

NBC stirred up racial hatred? Wow, they must have some serious clout because as far back as I look at this nation's history, it has been spattered with the blood of innocent people over racial hatred--long before anyone every heard of NBC. No NBC doesn't stir up racial hatred--Americans stir up racial hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 04:47 PM

A white man follows a black teenager around the neighborhood and shoots him for "looking suspicious" and NBC is stirring up the hatred?

Tell me more...

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 04:48 PM

"Zimmerman to be Charged"

Good.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 05:10 PM

The NRA is loving it...

Ka-ching, ka-ching, ka-ching...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 05:32 PM

Um- you mean now that they've let him escape and possibly flee to somewhere from which he can't be extradited?

Question: Was this done on purpose, or is it just another chapter in this absolute clusterfusk?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 05:46 PM

Well, they couldn't stop him if he hadn't been charged yet...

And NBC edited the tape so that the incident sounded different and much more racy, I mean, racist. That's why the guy got fired and yes, he was fomenting. And American!

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 06:28 PM

From the NY Times:

"The Florida special prosecutor announced a second-degree murder charge on Wednesday against George Zimmerman in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin.
   
Angela B. Corey, the prosecutor, said Mr. Zimmerman, 28, a crime watch volunteer, will appear before a magistrate within the next 24 hours. He is accused of fatally shooting Mr. Martin, an unarmed teenager, in a case that has captivated the country and brought to the fore issues of race, violence and precisely what constitutes self-defense.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 06:49 PM

I've listened to the tape and the edit and the Fox "News" commentary. Certainly the edit makes Zimmerman appear more guilty of racism, but even with that he appeared to be profiling, and wording things carefully. But even without that I am convinced that he is guilty. He stalked the kid and he killed the kid. You can't call it self defense when the shooter invites the situation.

Its like an old west gunfighter going up to a kid and saying draw! AND SHOOTING THE KID BECAUSE "he looked threatening as he ran away. I think that the race angle of this is very overplayed and the NUT JOB VIGILANTE angle as well as the NUT JOB FLORIDA LEGISLATURE angle are being underplayed.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 06:50 PM

Angela Corey is friggin' GREAT! The newspeople were their usual idiotic selves but Angela Corey is GREAT!

I have every confidence that this case will now be prosecuted to the best of their ability. Zimmerman has been arrested and is in custody. Took long enough but it got done right by this prosecutor.



Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 06:54 PM

Re the NBC 911 recording editing... Google it. I saw it on the Canuck Comedy channel on The Daily Show and it was in our local newspaper and on CNN and on FOX and on CBC and.... and on and on.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 07:05 PM

Here's where things are going to get real strange... Over the next 2 weeks Zimmerman will mysteriously come up with a million dollar legal dream team...

Who is going to be paying for that???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 07:06 PM

NPR said he's in custody. I suppose jail will be an interesting experience for Zimmerman. They took so long to charge him that there is probably an awful lot of opinion about him behind bars as there is on the outside.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 07:33 PM

There is a lot of opinion already... JtS wants to hang him RFN... right fuckin now!... no need for a trial... he is guilty, period!

JtS... did you get video while you witnessed what happened?

Appeared to be profiling? The tape doesn't indicate that. He stalked the kid? That's a leap. You say he shot the kid as he ran away... what/where is your support that the kid was shot in the back?

Why don't you wait for the trial? If he's guilty, I'll supply the rope and you can pull the lever. But, I ain't gonna give you ANY rope until he's proven guilty. Not simply THOUGHT guilty on a hunch and on unsupported accusations by someone who has no more info that the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Songwronger
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 07:50 PM

The last time I listened to NPR and Fox on the same day, they were pushing the same agenda. 1) Vladimir Putin is bad and the world needs to intercede in the Russian elections, and 2) Assad of Syria is bad and the world needs to launch a humanitarian invasion of the country to overthrow him. IDENTICAL stances reported from the right wing and the left wing media.

And now both the right and left wing media are hyping the Zimmerman/Martin thing. It's being done to distract you. It's being done to get your mind off Obama's tyrannical power grab with the NDAA and his endless wars.

Tune out the Trayvon Martin case. It's hate politics, and there's nothing you can do about it except feed the hate. Pharoah will always own you unless you learn to see through his tricks.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 08:11 PM

Songwronger-

You certainly are a breath of fresh air, or perhaps methane would be a more accurate description.

Zimmerman deserves a trial and now he'll have one. We'll have to wait and see what the decision is. That's the way the system works.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 08:15 PM

Methane, Charley...

Obama's endless wars???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 08:48 PM

Zimmerman will receive a trial. His victim didn't.

Angela Corey is adept and familiar with Stand Your Ground law, so there ain't much gonna get past her. Second degree has a maximum sentence in Florida of life.

(I got a buffalo head nickle says the Romney campaign would love to have Corey as a running mate.)

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 08:54 PM

Nah, Brucie, until Charles Manson was turned down for parole today he would have certainly been in the running for Romney's VP choice... Now he's stuck...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 01:14 AM

My understanding is that the kid was no where near his property. That he followed the kid. That Zimmerman called the police who told him not to confront the kid. Zimmerman confronted the kid and shot the kid.

Zimmerman had a gun.

The kid carried Skittles.

That is Murder pretty much anywhere but Sanford, Florida.

Now Angela Corey is saying it is a crime there as well.

He deserves a fair trial, but if Zimmerman has done what he is reported to have done, he deserves to go to jail. And the world, especially would be heroes in Florida need to see the news coverage.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 04:47 AM

I don't see why it's second degree. It seems premeditated to me. Chasing after someone with a gun. Maybe the trial will reveal.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 07:48 AM

Zimmerman didn't leave home with the intent to kill Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 07:58 AM

There was a time when, if a black person was believed to have killed a white person, the accused would be lynched, without any formalities.

There seems to be a strong public feeling, in this case, that justice requires the same procedure to be applied in reverse. I can't consider that as an improvement.

There certainly appears to be strong evidence that Zimmerman killed Martin without just cause. But could we maybe have a trial before he's punished? "Due process" can't be limited to nice people, if we want it to be due process at all.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 08:14 AM

I fear that what we are going to see is a rerun of the O.J. Simpson trial...

But with that said, karma caught up with O.J. and karma will catch up with Zimmerman, as well...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 09:10 AM

I have found the following on the internet: -

"The unlawfull killing of another human being with malice aforethought. =D
When the killing was planned and deliberate, when the victim was a member of law enforcement, or when the killing occurs in conjunction with another offence such as sexual assault, kidnapping or hijacking
Murder in the 1st degree-In most states, first-degree murder is defined as an unlawful killing that is both willful and premeditated, meaning that it was committed after planning or "lying in wait" for the victim..Most states also adhere to a legal concept known as the "felony murder rule," under which a person commits first-degree murder if any death (even an accidental one) results from the commission of certain violent felonies -- usually arson, burglary, kidnapping, rape, or robbery.
*
Second-degree murder in most States is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life.
*
Third-degree murder (most always called Manslaughter)
In most States if a murder does not qualify by statute for first-degree murder,or second-degree murder. Then it may be classed as 3rd degree murder (Manslaughter) this occurs if mitigating factors were involved in the killing, such as adequate provocation by the victim, or the absence of intent or recklessness on the part of the defendant.
Usually describes pre-mediated (i.e.: pre-planned) murder.
In most states, first-degree murder is defined as an unlawful killing that is both willful and premeditated, meaning that it was committed after planning or "lying in wait" for the victim.
For example, Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. Three days later, Dan waits behind a tree near Victor's front door. When Victor comes out of the house, Dan shoots and kills him.
Most states also adhere to a legal concept known as the "felony murder rule," under which a person commits first-degree murder if any death (even an accidental one) results from the commission of certain violent felonies -- usually arson, burglary, kidnapping, rape, and robbery.
For example, Dan and Connie rob Victor's liquor store, but as they are fleeing, Victor shoots and kills Dan. Under the felony murder rule, Connie can be charged with first-degree murder for Dan's death"


What the local rules in Texas are may be muddier...

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 10:15 AM

"What the local rules in Texas are may be muddier..."

??????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: meself
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 10:28 AM

Midchuck: Can you point us to anything on-line to support your contention that there is some kind of widespread call for Zim to be lynched? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I haven't encountered any of this - but I'm a long way from the action.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Greg B
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 10:38 AM

I'm with Richard. I think the guy was probably just itching to use his gun, and looking for trouble. And if they can find someone who can and will testify to his having made racist or inflammatory statements, 1st degree murder should be possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 11:01 AM

And there's the rub. It's a case that has to 'go right' and it's politically hot. It is clear that the trial will be about Zimmerman, but equally clear that the verdict will have to be fair in the minds of all communities. I think LA 1965 and LA 1992 come to peoples' minds, because viscerally we know there is an unfairness at work here in the structure and intent of some laws. This trial could end up being more about equality before the law than anything else. When please and thank you stop working, tough shit and fuck you are often perceived to be the only other path, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 11:47 AM

I'm happy to say that none of our opinions really matter. What's going to count is what a jury of Zimmerman's peers think. And the judge. And that's where it should be - in front of a jury.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 11:58 AM

It will be interested, if he was knocked down and beaten as he says then the use of deadly force is authorized for his life was threatened, However, the police ordered him to stand down so he put himself in harms way without justification ... going to be interesting to see how it shakes out ... Florida has too loose carry laws and little training ... very disturbing to me

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 11:58 AM

""Zimmerman didn't leave home with the intent to kill Martin.""

It seems at least possible, if not probable, that he left his vehicle with that intention Bruce, and in any case the higher charge should be tested in court, since they can always drop to the lower.

It is my understanding that, charged with second degree, he cannot then be found guilty of first degree.

If that is correct, due process for Trayvon Martin is not being pursued.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 12:00 PM

And remember too that he left that vehicle in direct disobedience of police instructions.

It is fairly clear that he was looking for trouble, something for which he did have a reputation.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 12:05 PM

I am working slowly towards the realisation that murder is I think a common law matter in each state of the USA and the local courts will therefore have defined by the use of precedent the mental state (mens rea) necessary to distinguish one type of killing from another - subject to local statute.

Have we a lawyer from that state amongst us or even a law graduate from that state? Or is there someone here who might inspire someone from the law department of a university in that state to comment?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 12:06 PM

Don
that would be a terrible mistake, his attorney's would be able to take that first degree apart because there has to be clearly premeditated. Then he is charged with nothing ever again. 2nd degree is passion, acted in a heated moment ... my guess is the best they will get is manslaughter and 3 years if the jury doesn't believe his self defense argument

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 12:08 PM

I am not saying what my preference would be, Don, just stating what I see as some realities to do with this particular case. I trust things are good with you and that your health is up there.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 12:17 PM

Jack said "My understanding is that the kid was no where near his property."

I saw the map on TV. He was less than a 'block', a few hundred feet from the place he & his father were visiting. When followed, he tried to lose Zimmerman by (possibly running) down a line of apartments that were not a 'direct' line to his door. Still, he was shot less than 100 yards from his destinaion.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 12:20 PM

Guest Dexter, "The Mills Building at 1700 Pennsylvania Avenue is a 165,638 square foot mixed-use building located one block west of the White House." The address I think you meant is 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 12:28 PM

Ol' Dex is apparently another racist bigot for Jesus living in a fact-free environment.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: pdq
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 12:28 PM

However, the police ordered him to stand down...

Not exactly. The dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that", meaning follow the suspicious pedestrian. If the cop who showed up had said that it would have some weight behind it. The dispatcher has no power to tell a citizen what to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 03:01 PM

In New York State there was a similar situation with road rage. One guy cut the other off, words were exchange, one guy pulled off the road and the other pulled in behind him. Both got out of the car and one guy was beating the other pretty good. The guy getting wacked pulled a weapon and killed the other guy. His claim was self defense and it was to the extend the guy could have killed him, however, The jury found him guilty of manslaughter not 2nd degree murder because he left the car, didn't need to follow the guy, took matters into his own hands etc ...

In other words he put himself into that situation where a weapon had to be drawn and used.   Kinds sounds like this is the same but we will see since I really don't know the facts

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 03:10 PM

When my county judge issues a carry permit. He tells you right out that you have been given a great responsibility, He says you are not the police and it is your duty to avoid wherever possible a situation that requires you to use the thing. He doesn't want people playing cops ... it is purely for self defense in a life or death situation that you could not avoid. That is were I would be very interested to see how Florida law sorts this out.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: meself
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 03:21 PM

Martin's mother herself has just stated that she thinks it was an "accident", that "things just got out of hand". A very gracious lady. Sorry, I'm having internet trouble; can't provide the link.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: meself
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 03:22 PM

Here it is: Martin's mother.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 03:25 PM

"Jury of his peers" (?)

An all-white southern jury would acquit him.

An all-black jury would convict him.

Any jury they pick would have to be mixed-race. So it'll be a hung jury and a mistrial. Then they'll try him again with the same result. After three or four trials they'll give up and probably let him cop a plea to something very minor indeed, to save face.

That's my prognostication.

P.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 03:25 PM

If under the Florida stand your ground law is taken into the equation I doubt they can prosecute him for anything. I am glad we have no such law here as we are required to retreat where possible and avoid situations. Sadly I don't think that is a good law at all for it leads to this stuff where nobody wins here and someone ends up dead