Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 05:55 AM

eighteen months on.

Sunjay's working nearly every day of September an October this year.

Folkclubs dying out....not if you book Sunjay apparently!

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 May 12 - 11:08 AM

Well, I listened to the Sunjay track on TGIF and I thought it sounded a bit sort of alt-country.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: stallion
Date: 16 May 12 - 10:21 AM

I wrote a long piece very similar to SA and then just honed it down to creation and evolution.
It articulated all the points I had so we must be thinking along the same lines, or at least our analysis was. The only thing worth adding is we might ask at what point did it become important to attribute the author/composer to a song and why. BTW, how did the Gig go Sunjay?

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 16 May 12 - 09:26 AM

are we talking creationism or evolution?

I think the situation is reversed in the Fundamentalist Folk Realms, where the received wisdom is that there is something inherently inhuman about your genuine Folk Song on account of its evolution. You often read on Mudcat that such-and-such a song isn't a Folk Song because we know who wrote it, and that, no matter how entrenched that song may be in its particular community, if it hasn't satisfied the rather petty prescriptions of the 1954 Definition then isn't a Folk Song. So in the Fundamentalist Folk Realms, Folk Songs evolve via the quasi-mystical Folk Process - an essentially nebulous anonymous collective thing the substance of which is never fully explained - rather than via the creative genius of the individual working-class woman & men who made them, sang them, and altered them to suit their needs, or else mended the gaps left by the usual factors of wear & tear & imperfect recollection in an essentially oral context (fnarr, fnarr), or not as the case might be. Thus, my position is that belief in The Folk Process takes the same sort of blind faith as belief in Creationism, whereas the equivalent to Evolutionary Science is that Folk Songs are no different to any other sort of songs in that people write them according to a particular style (tradition), and sing them, change them, pass them on, and on, and on... So it is musical idioms & items evolve according to specific factors involving real human individuals as the creative masters of their craft.

*

Are the mutually-supportive 'Suibhne Astray' and 'Old Hobden' by any chance related?

Old Hobden is, in fact, my spirit guide in matters Folk related; as a medium, I welcome his timeless radical wisdom which I'm honoured to channel in possession, although (on the downside) the ectoplasm is a bugger to get out the carpet.

And does either have anything useful to say about Sunjay Brayne?

Go for it, Sunjay. To be honest I don't 'get' that sort of music, but I'm happy that people are playing it and loving it which is all that matters, is it not? All music is Marmite, in which our boat either floats or sinks.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 May 12 - 08:53 AM

spoil sport!

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Julius Fabricius
Date: 16 May 12 - 08:34 AM

Are the mutually-supportive 'Suibhne Astray' and 'Old Hobden' by any chance related?

And does either have anything useful to say about Sunjay Brayne?

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: stallion
Date: 16 May 12 - 07:57 AM

are we talking creationism or evolution?

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Old Hobden
Date: 16 May 12 - 06:07 AM

But I think the arguments about genre are pointless, just as the arguments about revival and tradition are utterly futile it's like the Judean Popular Front versus the Popular Front for Judea, who is the the top dog!

Go read Fakesong and The Imagined Village and see if you feel the same way. Fact is, there is a massive disparity between Revival and Traditional culture on any number of levels - aesthetical, cultural, political, social, structural etc. - and it pays (I feel) to be aware of these even to the point of seeing The Tradition as an invention of the revival, without which the myths on which our understanding of Traditional Folk Culture are predicated wouldn't exist. As we have seen umpteen times here on Mudcat, Revival Culture sees Folk more in terms of prescription than description. Subjecting essentially proletarian / popular / folk art to any sort of academic scrutiny is always going to raise problems, but the essentially feral nature of the Popular Art itself will always resist analysis and containment, despite the patronage and condescension intregral to revival sensitivities, and despite the massive gulfs of social class which meant not just tolerance of, but deference to, those well-healed aristocrats who took such an 'interest' in the culture of the servile workers however so specious that interest was. It's an imperialistic colonial thing born of the fuedal heritage of the British class system which is cultural apartheid in all but name; indeed, it might even be seen as being as Traditionally British as fish & chips or the working-class inclinitation to defer to upper-class mores anyway if only by way of cultural security, certainly if the 'Jubilee' displays in ASDA are anything to go by.

'Hob'.

PS - The 'River-Bit' issue was eventually sorted by the building of aforementioned ASDA, which I don't own any part of.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: stallion
Date: 16 May 12 - 03:31 AM

Oh I forgot to add that after "Popular Front for Judea" it should have been followed by (spit) "splittahs!"

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: stallion
Date: 16 May 12 - 03:25 AM

Some how I am getting the feeling we have been here numerous times. It would be interesting to recall ones earliest introduction music. I know my earliest contact was through my Mum and (maternal) Grandad singing to us as part of the goodnight ritual. The only books we had in our house were a set of encyclopaedia britanica that a travelling sold Mum whilst Dad was out and the odd library book when we were old enough to catch a bus into the village where there was a library; where is this taking us - well it is as near as I got to the oral/aural tradition of remembering songs as opposed to learning songs. I think the written word and mass literacy may have changed the way our brain stores information, my understanding of the folk tradition is less about content but how it is processed, stored and retrieved,. When I get really pissed approaching semiconsciousness I come out with music hall songs that I don't recognise at all when I am sober, presumably from my grandfather who's father was a music hall and later, silent movie pianist, similarly I sing songs that I assume my mother used to sing which I cannot recall at all when sober, it must have come from the bedtime songs and stories that are locked up in my memory. The second contact was through the family gatherings when each family member would get up and do their party piece my older cousin's remember my (paternal) grandad singing "Jack the Carters Lad", he died when I was an infant so I have no memory of this, my Dad sang "South of the Border", Mum sang "Don't Fence Me In", and Aunt Helena sang a version of "Rose of Allandale", Cousin John sang "The vicar of Bray", accompanying himself on the piano when in his own parlour, I recited poetry from a book. For me the tradition is not the genre but the act of getting together and doing it, it is less about the songs and more about the culture of participation. Pop music is associated with listening and not joining in with (festivals excepted but that is hardly a frequent occurrence) and getting more so with earphones, probably started with the broadsheets and music halls, rot set in a long time ago! I have a very eclectic taste in music that I listen to but I get bored very easily so I prefer a mix but when I am singing it is different, I am a bit of a slut in that respect, I will join in and try to find a harmony to anything but it is far easy to do it to songs from what is termed to be the traditional genre cos by and large the range is not difficult and the ones that have stood the test of time have a lot in for the singer (is that darwin in action?) So does one have to be a farm labourer to sing farm labouring songs or enjoying farm labouring songs? Do you have to be a moron perform, or listen to Drum and Bass? Ok, I see where my argument falls down ! But I think the arguments about genre are pointless, just as the arguments about revival and tradition are utterly futile it's like the Judean Popular Front versus the Popular Front for Judea, who is the the top dog! Far too much energy is expended arguing whether one tosses the coin with the left or right hand and not enough time spent on the result of the toss.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 May 12 - 07:04 PM

Dolly Parton!

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 12 - 06:45 PM

"There you go again".

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 May 12 - 04:00 PM

it's not more or less real than any other music or any other art

Talking of the relationship between The Tradition and The Revival in terms of social class & social funtion then I feel we can question the reality of the latter - which isn't to dismiss it entirely. Even revival notions of The Tradition are (at best) a tad shadowy, but it serves as a convenient watershed between the wan thing an't'other.

There's so much that's wrong with that sentence, I barely know where to begin...

And who the hell are you to tell me I'm wrong? By all means disagree, but all I'm doing here is riffing on a few notions as they pop into my weary brain after a Very Stressful Morning.

Suffice to say that, straight off the top of my head, I can think of plenty of people and performances that wholly belie that generalisation. And I'm sure you could too if you felt like playing devil's advocate with yourself.

Nope, I don't think I can - not in Revival Folk anyway. It's what makes it interesting. For sure sometimes the shortfall between intention and result is such that it doesn't quite come off, but generally I can be transported by even the most mediocre of singers if their hearts are in the right place.

Exactly the same can be said about pop music.

No it can't - because there the music is a multiplicity of living & breathing musical traditions, unlike the idiom of Traditional English Folk Song which is dead.

You're in danger of suggesting that what's subjective doesn't count as "real".

Not so, just that it isn't objective. My reality is not your reality, and vice versa, but there is a reality we both share. The reality I share with Carmen Perkins-Blodmonath (not her real name) over the road is another matter entirely. I'm sure my subjective reality is not in the least bit real to her, but we often stop and chat about things that matter to us both (seagulls mostly).

And actually, you're coming close to suggesting that dominant artistic forms such as chart pop (ie the forms that make the most money) are more vital and "real" than the ones on the margins.

In terms of objective cultural process they are. My position is that there is an unbroken continuous popular musical reality going back 50,000 years (at least) that takes in Traditional English Folk Song and evolves into the sort of stuff people are doing & experiencing today which has just as much meaning in their lives as Admiral Benbow had to Bob Copper.

Simon Frith and Simon Cowell would doubtless agree.

Hey, I watched Sounds of the 70s on BBC2 last night and came close to suicide. The fringes are my reality & always have been, but I don't expect anyone else to go spend their down time immersed in Magma bootlegs or archive recordings of McCoy Tyner, Roland Kirk or Harry Cox.

I dunno about your "real" world, but it certainly sounds like a fantasy: trains don't go whizzing by, they have been privatised into an extortionately priced inefficient carve-up. And chart pop is a cynical racket sewn up by TV marketeers, which even the occasional good bit of hip-hop or cheesy disco can't rescue.

Well, I see trains whizz by and every time I get hip to what's going down on Tim Westwood, it's vanished away like easter snow. Time was I could keep up, these days I can't. But I disagree about the cynical racket - it's no more cynical a racket than Broadsheets or Topic CDs. It betrays cultural process and creativity and artistry at a very high level indeed, no different from the ordinary working class men & women who made the old songs (but very different from the upper-class ones who collected them, or those who sing them today, but that's another issue).

(And don't forget that pop music is merely music that's popular, nothing more, nothing less: it doesn't care about genre.

I use the term Popular in exactly the same way Prof Child use it. It's not a numbers thing - it's popular as in people. And yes - Genre is immaterial.

Folk music is pop music if it happens to sell enough copies.

Folk music was once Popular Music. Now it's a handful of musical genres. Irrespective of how many units a folk album sells it will always be Folk.

The music of decades passed routinely top the contemporary album charts thanks to the infinitely re-recuperating wheel of new formats - I wouldn't be surprised if the Beatles were currently no.1 again. Folk music is pop music whenever an album happens to sell enough measly few copies/downloads to hit the top 10.

Culture is leveling out into a very Traditional / Nostalgic phase, hence last nights Sounds of the 70s debacle. But this is true for classical, jazz, prog, gamelan, etc. etc.

I discover plenty of "reality" in folk song, and that reality is no less real and true than that of any other art form I might happen to interest myself in. I got into folk and blues because I was into hip-hop and punk.

That sort of reality is still very subjective, even if I happen to share it with you. I still love punk & hip-hop & blues, though these days I prefer The Young Marble Giants to the Young Tradition. In the end, it's just a matter of whatever floats your boat.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Gibsonboy
Date: 15 May 12 - 03:31 PM

Good point Matt, Pop Music is music that is popular which can include Folk. Yeh I can go with that. So what is Traditional Music then?

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,matt milton, master of reality
Date: 15 May 12 - 01:38 PM

"In fact, I think of all Folk as a sort of séance; because it's certainly not real"

it's not more or less real than any other music or any other art

"it's invoked by a self-appointed cast of seasoned shamanic spirit-mediums (media?) who seek trance possession and holy communion in the singing of sacred canonical texts that only really have any meaning to the initiated."

There's so much that's wrong with that sentence, I barely know where to begin... Suffice to say that, straight off the top of my head, I can think of plenty of people and performances that wholly belie that generalisation. And I'm sure you could too if you felt like playing devil's advocate with yourself.

"it might appear to be real (i.e. collective, common, objective) but it only works because it is, in fact, entirely subjective"

Exactly the same can be said about pop music. You're in danger of suggesting that what's subjective doesn't count as "real". And actually, you're coming close to suggesting that dominant artistic forms such as chart pop (ie the forms that make the most money) are more vital and "real" than the ones on the margins. Simon Frith and Simon Cowell would doubtless agree.

I dunno about your "real" world, but it certainly sounds like a fantasy: trains don't go whizzing by, they have been privatised into an extortionately priced inefficient carve-up. And chart pop is a cynical racket sewn up by TV marketeers, which even the occasional good bit of hip-hop or cheesy disco can't rescue.

(And don't forget that pop music is merely music that's popular, nothing more, nothing less: it doesn't care about genre. Folk music is pop music if it happens to sell enough copies. The music of decades passed routinely top the contemporary album charts thanks to the infinitely re-recuperating wheel of new formats - I wouldn't be surprised if the Beatles were currently no.1 again. Folk music is pop music whenever an album happens to sell enough measly few copies/downloads to hit the top 10. )

I discover plenty of "reality" in folk song, and that reality is no less real and true than that of any other art form I might happen to interest myself in. I got into folk and blues because I was into hip-hop and punk.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 12 - 12:58 PM

Or indeed gratuitous philological exhibitionists.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 12 - 12:37 PM

No need for apologies, Al, but it was appreciated anyway. If I was over-riled by the use of the term Nazi and came across too strong then I also apologise. But, just maybe, peopel will eventualy stop accusing others of being Nazis when they disagree with their views.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 May 12 - 06:55 AM

'fantasty that keeps me there unto this day. Imagination is a good thing'

yes indeed - chubby ladies, in black lingerie do it for me....

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Lets get back to the topic
Date: 15 May 12 - 06:55 AM

so how was the gig Sunjay?

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 May 12 - 06:47 AM

This morning I was up with the larks, not so much out with my gun in the dew glistening meadows o' May bathed in Phoebus's risen rays, but rather sitting in a succession of waiting rooms (how's that for a collective noun??) feeling utterly depressed. Anticipating this lack o' cheer, I took along my cherished CBC edition of Bob Copper's Song for Every Season & was, as ever, transported into what is, to me, a fantasy of a world I might only experience on a very remote level at several removes, the songs likewise. This is why when I think of those perfect rain-lashed and fire-lit nights in the backroom of the Colpitts in Durham, smoking Golden Virginia & quaffing Sam Smith's Old Brewery Bitter whilst being utterly enchanted by Ian McCulloch's masterful essaying of The Copper Family Song Book (I'm thinking of Admiral Benbow in particular here, which was mentioned in the passage I was reading earlier) I do so in terms of pure séance. In fact, I think of all Folk as a sort of séance; because it's certainly not real - it's invoked by a self-appointed cast of seasoned shamanic spirit-mediums (media?) who seek trance possession and holy communion in the singing of sacred canonical texts that only really have any meaning to the initiated.

This is the sort of fantasy world I'm talking about; a world that sure as hell ain't real, though it might appear to be real (i.e. collective, common, objective) but it only works because it is, in fact, entirely subjective. We create it, and we maintain it, in between times, in the real world, in goodly faith of our conviction and calling, and subsequent dedication to the craft of the Revival Folksong Singer, who must, like the Model Railway Enthusiast, lovingly tend their world in plastic miniature with all the exacting dedication demanded of their calling. Meanwhile, back in the real world, real trains and real living breathing popular music continue to whizz past. And whilst Battle Re-enactment Groups flourish - everything from Celts, Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Elizabethans, Roundheads, Border Reivers and WW2 Home Guards - I don't think the government will be sending any of them off to Afghanistan any time soon.

This is but one of several inherent dualities of Folk. Personally, I like to be aware of such things - yeah, even as a Folksong Singer & Enthusiast - and openly confess that it was the fantasy that suckered me into it in the first place and the fantasty that keeps me there unto this day. Imagination is a good thing, especially in the sort of world we inhabit today. Crikey - I might go completely insane otherwise - assuming, of course, I haven't already...

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: matt milton
Date: 15 May 12 - 05:54 AM

"I think any Folksong Singer - great & small - invents their own fantasy world anyway, just any model railway enthusiast does."

Again the capitalisation....

I sing folk songs, and would fall into the "small" category rather than the "great", but I certainly don't invent any fantasy worlds, whether my own or anybody else's.

Is that because I am not a "Folksong Singer" - just a "folk singer" or alternatively a "singer of folk songs"?

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 12 - 04:14 PM

I object to people who say "endeavour" in stead of "try"

I object to people who object to how other people express themselves. focus on the content not the form, m'learned friend.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 12 - 03:48 PM

I object to people who say "endeavour" in stead of "try". It's much the same thing - deliberate obscurantism and pretension. Anyone who does that has no chance with folk song.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Phil B
Date: 14 May 12 - 02:59 PM

You can be a gambler that never drew a hand
You can be a sailor that never left dry land
You can be Lord Jesus all the world will understand
Down where etc etc

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Brian Peters
Date: 14 May 12 - 02:55 PM

"I think any Folksong Singer - great & small - invents their own fantasy world anyway"

We might inhabit the fantasy world of each song, for the duration of that song, but that's as far as it goes, for me anyway. I don't need to invent one.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 May 12 - 08:10 AM

I've yet to encounter anyone on the folk scene who does in fact genuinely believe they are a 19th century farm labourer, or even merely the reincarnation of one.

Me neither - that's what I'm saying. Although there is Ewan MacColl's very queer notion of 'Method Singing' which is as patronisingly absurd as anything Sharp & his bourgeois cronies ever came up with. I think any Folksong Singer - great & small - invents their own fantasy world anyway, just any model railway enthusiast does. Whether they then go on to insist that fantasy has any objective currency is another matter entirely, although it could make a good horror story, rather like the Ventriloquist Dummy segment of The Dead of Night which deals with a similar sort of (potential) psychotic trauma in which things blur rather...

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: matt milton
Date: 14 May 12 - 07:54 AM

There seems to be quite a big off-the-radar blues scene in Europe though. Endless festivals, with decent sponsorship, that you don't know about till you start rootling around. France has a crazy amount of blues festivals.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,johncharles
Date: 14 May 12 - 07:33 AM

there are many, many excellent fingerstyle blues players,you only have to look at youtube to see this. Sunjay needs good publicity,and a good helping of luck. Even so trying to make a living playing this type of material on the folk scene is likely to prove hard, so get a good day job.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 14 May 12 - 07:32 AM

I rather like the idea that in her own head Lady Gaga sounds like Peter Bellamy...

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 12 - 07:29 AM

But having said that, my mum and dad in law went to see him, and they couldn't make nor tail of it - just ordinary English.. Its all very well Carthy saying - just because you're English it doesn't mean you get this stuff.

I think ordinary folk should have SOME idea of what's going on.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 12 - 07:26 AM

I'm sure he did.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: matt milton
Date: 14 May 12 - 07:09 AM

"I dunno about that - there was Peter Bellamy who reckoned he wanted to sound like an 18th century agricultural worker who had suffered a nervous breakdown on account of his land being enclosed. Thus the tremor in his his voice."

Not the same thing though. The salient words highlighted:

"I've yet to encounter anyone on the folk scene who does in fact GENUINELY BELIEVE they ARE a 19th century farm labourer, or even merely the reincarnation of one."

But the main point is that while it's interesting, it is ultimately irrelevant what was going through Bellamy's head - what he thought he was doing, whether he thought his art was more or less authentic than anyone else's. He may well have wanted to sound like that.

For all I know, that's what Lady GaGa wants to sound like too. It has little bearing on what they actually sound like. What's important is whether he succeeded in making convincing, potent, good art.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 12 - 06:42 AM

I dunno about that - there was Peter Bellamy who reckoned he wanted to sound like an 18th century agricultural worker who had suffered a nervous breakdown on account of his land being enclosed. Thus the tremor in his his voice.

And AL Lloyd says says something similar in Folksong in England.

Both big hitters in the way of things.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: matt milton
Date: 14 May 12 - 06:03 AM

"Why would anyone refuse to see that there is a difference of type, not style, between a folk art and a contemporary one?

Because not all of us are suckered into the prescriptive fantasies of the Folksong Revival. The very notion of Folk Art is so much patronising paternalistic hokum - it exists to suppress & disempower the very essence of working-class creativity that gave rise to the old songs & ballads in the first place."

Well I think you're both getting too hung up on the urge to categorize and capitalize. It implies things are a lot more homogenous than they actually are: I prefer my Folk Revival uncapitalised, thanks, because Shirley Collins is not Bert Jansch, and Bert Jansch was not Ewan MacColl.

Similarly, while you can have arguments about whether something is "a difference of type, not style" in the abstract and in general, those kind of distinctions start to unravel in practice - when you start to think about specific musicians and what they do.

There are plenty of folk-scene musicians who play proper trad folk material, but do so in a way undistinguishable from singer-songwriter pop idioms. Change the words and they'd be David Gray or Coldplay or Ed Sheeran. Now is that a difference of "type" or "style? I don't know, and I think it's irrelevant: style is to type as quantity is to quality (as water is to steam).

Likewise, I think Sedayne gets equally hung up on speculating on what singers might *think* they are doing, rather than what they actually are doing. I've yet to encounter anyone on the folk scene who does in fact genuinely believe they are a 19th century farm labourer, or even merely the reincarnation of one.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 May 12 - 05:25 AM

Here's a different take; no adds for a start and a mouth-clarinet in the mix as well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sW4UoxhhoH8&feature=related

Perfect music for a bleary Monday morning...

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 May 12 - 05:10 AM

Why would anyone want to write "essaying popular songs"?

Because that's exactly what I saw, Richard - same as I see many Folksong Singers essaying Traditional Songs, or Bruce Mathiske essaying Caravan. Allow me to explain. Essaying would ordinarily (I suppose) be a matter of attempting something, or having a go. Here it's similar, but it's more a matter of acknowledging traditional continuance and the sort of aesthetic / cultural assumptions any non-traditional artist might make when approaching / covering a particular piece of traditional music to somehow make it their own, which of course it never is. I have somewhere my Caravan Collection which takes in everyone from The Mills Brothers to Martin Denny, but it sits squarely on the Tizol / Ellington original, the evolution of which was considerable between the initial recording of May 14th 1937*, and that which Ellington would record some 25 years later in a trio with Max Roach and Charles Mingus (Tizol's own versions notwithstanding). As musically accomplished as Bruce Mathiske's cover is, it is not part of the music / cultural lineage (tradition) that gave rise to the song**, thus I say essaying, because it ain't real in the way that the others are. Similarly, Buskers essay popular songs and Folksong Singers essay traditional ones - no matter how good they might be, they are not part of the original musical / cultural / traditional lineage as any Busker / Folksong Singer or Jazz Guitarist will be all too aware. One hopes.

* Sources differ as to when extactly this seminal session was, or who was leading - Ellington or Bigard.

** Song is used here in its Jazz sense, where all sorts of musical pieces and ideas are referred to as songs whether they involve words or not (and a Chorus in Jazz is very difference to a Chorus in folk). Although there are words to Caravan, and several iconic performances (Ella not least) the piece is more often than not essayed instrumentally, even by The Mills Brothers, who used their voices (in this instance) to imitate an instrumental ensemble with trombone and wow-trumpet solos complete with cheeky sycopations, but the only real instrument is the guitar backing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJOs8roE94E

*

Why would anyone refuse to see that there is a difference of type, not style, between a folk art and a contemporary one?

Because not all of us are suckered into the prescriptive fantasies of the Folksong Revival. The very notion of Folk Art is so much patronising paternalistic hokum - it exists to suppress & disempower the very essence of working-class creativity that gave rise to the old songs & ballads in the first place.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 12 - 04:06 AM

Dave

That should have read

THERE WAS NO INSULT INTENDED TO YOUR GOOD SELF>

Richard

I'm not sure I have a hostility. I suppose I first heard a song like Geordie done by Joan Baez and I think most people can dig it that way.

Then you hear Carthy's version (is it Karpeles, he reckons to have got it from) and the approach seems obscurantist Calculated to throw the average listener off the scent of a good folksong experience.

Similarly Baez's version on of Henry martin seems like a rattling good song. By the time its become Lofty Tall Ships (from sam Larner I believe) - its like a lyrical fragment - rather than awhole song. I don't know if you've ever seen a complete works of Shelley - but its as though, someone has said bollocks to prometheus Unbound and the Mask of Anarchy - the real poetry is all these twatty little fragments.

Of course Carthy redeems himself a million times over by being possibly the greatest guiar player of our generation. But add some cack handed sod trying to duplicate his work or singing the words from a loose leaf folder, unaccompanied and in and out of key like a fiddlers elbow - and you've got a complete hit job on folk music.

Some of my problem could stem from being an ex remedial teacher. Make things as simple as you can. Simplify them. Don't change yur mind halfway through the lesson.

I rather envy these blokes who can make a living from being complex subtle and all the rest of it! Pure jealousy really!

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 12 - 01:22 AM

Why would anyone want to write "essaying popular songs"?

Why would anyone refuse to see that there is a difference of type, not style, between a folk art and a contemporary one?

Why have people forgotten that a folk singer is not the same thing as a folksong singer who in turn is not the same as a singer-songwriter?

Al, you are a great creator - but I fail to understand your hostility towards folk song.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 May 12 - 09:33 PM

There was no implication. One of the few things I've got to be proud of is a father who put his life on the line to fight in WW2.

There was insult intended to your good self.

Millions of people disagree with me. Often with good reason, as I am wrong about lots of things.

Apologies for any offence caused - completely unintentional

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: stallion
Date: 13 May 12 - 08:28 PM

I have just deleted a whole diatribe trying to explain how it is but somehow it seems f**king futile. So, son, (I assume you are reading this) You have a talent, stick at it, work at it, and you might make it. There is no substitute for hard work, always remember that you are only as good as your last gig. I wish you luck and a successful career. nuff said

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 13 May 12 - 06:33 PM

Gentlemen please. You'll give yourselves nose bleeds.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 12 - 05:56 PM

Aye, you are right SRS - As usual- I have now had at least 220 and a couple of glasses of Chardonay :-)

I know you didn't, Al. But the implication was there.

Small things, but my own. My opinions and the expression of them. A right that my father fought for, against the nazi hoards.

Sorry, but you cannot get away with statements like that. The imnpliation is plain for all to see. Anyone who disagrees with your opinions or expresion of them is a nazi. If that was not what you meant, pray tell why you chose to bring it up in that way? It is as dictatorial as anything old Adolph came out with. BTW, did you know he really did only have one ball?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 May 12 - 12:08 PM

Dave, take a breath. Take two. :)

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: stallion
Date: 13 May 12 - 12:07 PM

My Dad was at monte casino, he had a polish mate he called Bob Skop, any relation

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 May 12 - 11:14 AM

I did not call you a Nazi.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 12 - 08:48 AM

Ahhhh - OK! I am a Nazi now? better than folk police I suppose. At least we can now invoke Goodwins law and stop this nonsense. I just wonder though if your father and your father passed each other. maybe when my Dad was trying to escape Mazi oppression in Poland. then again maybe it was when he was shipped to a labour camp by the communists when they regained Bialystok? Or just maybe when he joined the 8th Army and was wounded at Monte Casino. Maybe after the war when he became treasurer of the trade union? No wonder I am such a left wing pinko nazi.

:D tG

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 13 May 12 - 06:39 AM

The Steamer's under new management after a year or so of caretaker-lull following the glory days of Cliff and Shirley, but it seems to be thriving again - lots of events, bands, singers, open mics, although, sadly, the Folk Club no longer meets there (not that the Sinclair Room was ideal, but it had a certain soul). The Steamer's just at the end of our street but (shamefully) I only pop in if I want to find my old mukka 'Sailor' Ron Baxter, who does his art in there in his downtime. Good to see it springing into life again & the new landlord seems a jovial cove (a fellow ex-pat Geordie, ha!) so hopefully it'll see good use in the festival this year, just as long as they don't ask me to MC the Saturday night... They say you can fit the entire population of the world on the Isle of Wight if they all stood very close together - that's what The Steamer feels like on the Saturday of the Fylde.

Actually, writing this, I'm tempted to pop down just now for a toastie & pint of Bombadier by way of a quick lunch. Maybe I'll suggest to the new guy starting up an experimental music & free-improvisation club in The Sinclair Room...

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 May 12 - 05:35 AM

Excellent clip, SA - thanks for the link - just the right notes and feel for the tune, and played immaculately.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 May 12 - 05:10 AM

wow! what a beautiful resonant guitar sound. I quite liked the gig at The Steamer - with all the people who came for the market! Pete Skinner is a great mate and of course - him and John are kings of the place.

When i did the steamer I was still struggling with getting a sound with the variax, which is just the ace guitar for that sort of pub gig.

I'm pretty sorted now. The new lightweight Fender acoustasonic amp (150 watt) is a big improvement on the 30watt thing that I tried to do the Steamer with - I was using the line out to the PA -which always sounds like shit.

Id love to be at Fylde this year - my favourite folk festival by a mile! But Denise has got a date in June for a shoulder replacememnt op - so my services as gofer will be in much demand.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 13 May 12 - 04:27 AM

PS - Here's Bruce essaying my favourite tune of all time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B2z9KC5x44