BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted

Subject: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 May 12 - 05:54 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/may/09/rochdale-child-sex-ring-jailed


Just saw it on tonights news. What absolutely sickened me was that a lawyer representing these perverts has said he is going to claim a mis-trial because certain right wing political parties claimed the men were guilty before the verdicts were delivered. Aparantly this must mean that the jury were corrupt...

These sickos have been found guilty of targeting and abusing young girls. Regardless of race, colour or creed. One of them cannot be named because he 'does not recognise a jury made up of white people'. He was still jailed for 19 years I am glad to say. I am also very pleased to say that the judiciary and the mainstream political parties have been very quick to point out that fear of 'political correctness' must not stop justice from happening.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 May 12 - 06:04 PM

Taken directly from the Guardian article for anyone who cannot follow the link -

The man seen as the ringleader, a 59-year-old who cannot be named for legal reasons, was jailed for a total of 19 years for conspiracy, two counts of rape, aiding and abetting a rape, sexual assault and a count of trafficking within the UK for sexual exploitation.

The defendant was previously banned from court because of his threatening behaviour and for calling the judge a "racist bastard". Simon Nichol, defending, said his client did not wish to attend the sentencing hearing and had ordered him not to put any mitigation before the judge.

"He has objected from the start for being tried by an all-white jury and subsequent events have confirmed his fears," Nichol said. "He does not take back any of the comments he has made to your honour, to the jury, or to anyone else in the court during the course of the trial.

"He believes his convictions have nothing to do with justice but result from the faith and the race of the defendants. He further believes that society failed the girls in this case before the girls even met them and now that failure is being blamed on a weak minority group."

The judge called the defendant an "unpleasant and hypocritical bully".


Need I say more?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 May 12 - 06:19 PM

There are paedophiles in the most unexpected places, even on the folk scene, and even amongst the mudcat members.
how are they to be handled? they may have served prison sentences and think they have paid for their crimes, but their victims have been permanently scarred.
I do not know the answer

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 May 12 - 06:21 PM

who cannot be named for legal reasons,

This normally means that the person is also facing another trial for other offences, and that publishing his name at this time could prejudice the proceedings, and would mean that if he was found guilty it would likely be found a mistrial.

Nothing to do with "because he 'does not recognise a jury made up of white people' "

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 12 - 06:43 PM

Not absolutely sure that "paedophile" is the right word here. That term is normally reserved, as I understand it, for sexual abuse of pre-pubescent children. Just sayin'.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 May 12 - 06:48 PM

I agree 100% with McGrath; it was nothing to do with "because he 'does not recognise a jury made up of white people' ".
It is an unpleasant case, but discussion of it(if you feel you must) is not helped by making stuff up.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: gnu
Date: 09 May 12 - 07:28 PM

"There are paedophiles in the most unexpected places, even on the folk scene, and even amongst the mudcat members."

WTF????

Seems like a strange thing to say, unless...

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 12 - 10:16 PM

gnu - Just believe it ! I am anonymous to be legal ! A long time agoI managed to get a young lady into bed - was horrified when she said "Rape Me"
There are 'strange' people everywhere .

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 12 - 02:58 AM

One of their child victims went to the police in 2008, but the CPS declined to prosecute and the police declined to appeal.
The children were all in care, or from troubled homes.

A new prosecutor, Nazir Afzal took over last year and changed the decision at once.
He said "imported cultural baggage" played a role but it was mostly their attitude to women as "lesser beings."

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 10 May 12 - 04:12 AM

Thanks, Keith, for pointing out that an Asian solicitor played a leading role in the decision to proceed with the prosecutions. A welcome corrective to some of the stuff we're seeing (and likely to see in the future) about this case. I hear axes being ground already.

There are several prominent Asian leaders who have condemned this men and the attitudes within their community which played a part in allowing this to happen. It would be a shame if they were overlooked.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: akenaton
Date: 10 May 12 - 04:23 AM

"Not absolutely sure that "paedophile" is the right word here. That term is normally reserved, as I understand it, for sexual abuse of pre-pubescent children. Just sayin'."

Although I agree with Steve here, I am surprised that his remark has passed without comment.

When I made the same observation regarding the "Priest sexual abuse" issue, I was attacked from all sides.
Both are almost exclusively sexual abuse of minors, heterosexual abuse in this case and homosexual abuse in the priest's case.
IMO...Keith's stance on this issue has now been completely vindicated

Real paedophillia(the sexual abuse of pre pubescent children), is thankfully very rare indeed, though the word is often used to obscure the real nature of the abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 May 12 - 11:39 AM

Are they young teens or young children being groomed?

I'd agree that Western notions of what legally constitutes a child differs to many more traditional cultures where biology prevails - ie: if a teenage girl is menstruating and showing signs of sexual development, many cultures (including Western cultures in past) would consider her to be a physically mature woman, and not a child.

Paedophiles specifically are sexually attracted to non-sexually mature young children. A teen -either above or below the legal age of consent- who physically presents as a young woman, with a woman's physical shape and so-on, would not be sexually attractive to a paedophile.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 May 12 - 12:18 PM

PS: I'd like to clarify that I in no way condone the abuse of either children or women, for any reason, including what may constitute more 'traditional' cultural attitudes about women.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 May 12 - 01:11 PM

Further to harmful traditional cultural attitudes about women (or "cultural baggage" referenced above) which *may* possibly figure in the spate of criminal Asian gangs trafficking vulnerable women in Britain over the last couple of decades:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/15/us-women-danger-south-asia-idUSTRE75E0CI20110615

Quote:

"Domestic violence is rampant and various forms of sexual assault often remain an untold horror that women endure. To a large part it is cultural, stemming from a feudal tradition where sons were the inheritors as well as caregivers in old age. But since then, it has become embedded in attitude, where women are simply considered inferior."
Ganguly cites the high-profile case of Mukhtaran Mai -- a Pakistani women gang-raped by 14 men in 2002 to settle a matter of village honor -- as a sign of how age-old attitudes have not changed.
Six men were sentenced to death for Mai's rape, but earlier this year Pakistan's Supreme Court upheld a decision to acquit five of them and commute one sentence to life in prison. Mai now lives in fear that those who raped her will return.
Such injustices against women in the region are widespread, experts say."

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 12 - 01:54 PM

Yes, I also was attacked when I pointed out the effect of many Muslims holding their stone-age views, especially with their individual and collective view of (especially white) females.

I said wake up and smell the roses - it's happening, it's not just scare-mongering. Looking at our local paper, it's amazing how many court appearances are happening for so many 'good' and devout Muslims who feel that scamming the rest of us is OK. We don't matter and our females matter even less.

With all the PC, lefty do-gooders out there afraid to call a 'spade a spade' (sic) they'll continue to get away with it.

I'm just waiting for them to trot out 'you're nothing but a racist bastard crap' again. Irrespective of the evidence to the contrary.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Brian May
Date: 10 May 12 - 01:56 PM

The above was me - bloody cookie

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 12 - 03:06 PM

The key issue here is why the authorities - the police and the Crown Prosecution Service failed to put a stop to this years ago when a victim gave evidence that should have triggered a proper investigation.   In effect they shrugged it off as not being of any importance.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 May 12 - 03:08 PM

I think that it's better to look at culture -specifically poor rural based traditional cultures lacking the benefit of education- rather than religion per se, where the oppression of women is concerned.

The Mulslim religion reasons for equality between the sexes - or so I have read. Traditional cultures of many faiths, perceive women as fundamentally inferior however. And that same perception is exactly what Western Christian women have had to fight against within our own culture., and indeed continue to fight against.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 May 12 - 03:17 PM

" In effect they shrugged it off as not being of any importance."

Mmm, there have been claims that the forces feared comeback due to accusations of 'racism' as indeed is demonstrated as so in the OP's case.

Equally one might argue that sexism itself was the source, and that the forces who should have helped them considered them no better than their abusers. In other words, 'white trash' and 'little slappers'.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 12 - 03:34 PM

There are other possible explanations for the failure of the police to respond adequately which have a lot more to do with issues of class and culture and attitudes arising from - within the white police force.

I find the suggestion that the police were inhibited in this case by fear of being accused of racism very improbable. That sounds more like a constructed cover story than real explanation. It might make some sense in the context of social services,but hardly where the police are concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 12 - 03:48 PM

Sorry, Kevin and Greg, but did you not read what the lawyer said? It is in the article and the direct copy I posted. Once again -

"He has objected from the start for being tried by an all-white jury and subsequent events have confirmed his fears."

OK - I agree that this is not why he cannot be named and I withdraw that. Having re-read my initial posting. I knew what I meant to say but in my anger at the lawyers comments I put it across incorretly. Sorry for that. However, to say it has nothing to do with a jury of white people while the defendant himself has objected to that very thing is just as, if not more, misleading than my bad phraseology!

As to them not being paedophiles. Well. They groomed girls as young as 13. That is a fact proven in a court of law. In the article itself just one of the men was sentenced to 12 years for rape, six years for conspiracy, one year for trafficking and six years, all concurrent, for sexual activity with a child. Yes, it does say with a child. There is plenty more but it is quite sickening and I am only repeating what you already know.

If anyone wants to play at semantics please feel free to do so. But if anyone wants to justify these men raping under age girls because the victims were teenage rather than pre-pubescent then please take your perverse views elsewhere.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 12 - 03:55 PM

Who's doing that?

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 12 - 03:59 PM

CS - Agree absolutely with your comment about religion. It is bugger all to do with religion,colour mor the price of fish. However I think many people in Rochdale (only 10 miles from me!) would object to your comment -

I think that it's better to look at culture -specifically poor rural based traditional cultures lacking the benefit of education

What? Have you been to Rochdale? It is definitely poor, although probably on the rise now. Used to be a wealthy cotton town but now has lots of unemployment. It is neither rural or lacking in education though. Are you suggesting that poor northern industrial towns somehow engender child sex offenders?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 12 - 04:03 PM

Has got nothing to do with race you are racist by the looks of it though.Catholic priests had a global network of child abuse so your muslim angle falls flat.The last two major peadophile rings infiltrated by serious crimes in the UK were all white caucasian.
.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 May 12 - 04:07 PM

No DtG I'm referring to the South Asian immigrant cultures which have been overwhelmingly involved in this particular crime of trafficking vulnerable young women in the North of England. I hope that's cleared that up.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Penny S.
Date: 10 May 12 - 04:09 PM

There was a story the other week in the Guardian Weekend magazine about abuse of teenage boys in a young offenders centre by a white member of staff who took his victims (selected from those without supportive families, often having been in care and abused eoither at home or in care) off site for sessions sometimes involving others.

One victim went directly to the police on release to report the perpetrator (and his behaviour was known among other staff), only for them to fail to take any action, thus allowing him to go on and abuse many more boys, who have grown into men with destroyed lives. He was eventually taken to court.

Some took the Home Office to court for that failure to act, and about £100,000 was spent by the HO to oppose the payment of compensation, including employing a lawyer who argued that one victim had a genetic tendency to be abused. Jack Straw has responded to requests for an apology by claiming that an apology was not included in the agreed settlement.

Hopefully, the police will respond more promptly to such cases - and if they suspect that accusations are false, it can only help the suspect if they do act fast to clear them. I assume that may be why in these two cases, reaction was slow. The prison case would not have been held back by fear of accusations of racism.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 12 - 04:17 PM

Sorry, CS, but I am still unclear. Do the men we are talking about live in South Asia or Lancashire? Not that I believe the culture of either place would condone what they have done. Thay are just sick people who cannot seem to form normal relationships. To make matters worse one of them is claiming that a jury of white people would be automaticaly predjudiced against him. Who does he think he is kidding? It is obvious to a blind man on a flying horse that he has been caught and is trying every trick in the book, including playing the race card, to get away with it. It looks like it is backfiring on him but, unfortunately, some of the more extreme right wing groups have used his manipulative lying to try and gain some sort of credence for themselves. They deserve each other.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 May 12 - 04:23 PM

DtG Pakistan is the third most dangerous place in the world for a woman to live. As a man you can please yourself what you do and say in Lancashire, or elsewhere..

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 12 - 04:37 PM

I'm sure it is true, CS, but what has Pakistan being a dangerous place got to do with a child sex ring in Rochdale? I don't think I am being particularly obtuse here but I just don't see the connection. If you just want to mention it in passing then please feel free but if you want to make a serious point would it not be better on it's own thread?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 12 - 04:38 PM

Karachi, Pakistan, has more street children than any other city in the world.
They are preyed on, used and exploited and no-one cares.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 May 12 - 02:42 AM

According to charities which work to protect street children in Pakistan, up to 90 per cent are sexually abused on the first night that they sleep rough and 60 per cent accuse police of sexually abusing them.

"Children on the street are beaten, tortured, sexually assaulted, and sometimes killed," said Rana Asif Habib, head of the Initiator Human Development Foundation (IHDF).


Karachi is home to Pakistan's biggest community of street children —tens of thousands of victims of domestic violence and broken homes, drugs and crime, in the steamy port city.

More than 170,000 street children live on the streets across the country.

http://dawn.com/2011/08/26/children-sexually-abused-on-pakistans-streets/

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 11 May 12 - 03:30 AM

Yes, that's a fair point DtG. We are talking of Rochdale. However, any culture which undervalues women, or children, silently condones their abuse, and abuse you will find. Rochdale like many towns over the UK provided the goods. These internal trafficking gangs, like all traders, understand the simple equation "buy low, sell high" The girls they buy are bought cheaply, with chicken and chips, mobile phones and booze, and a promise of affection. Then they are abandoned to the criminals who bought them. It's only concerted long-term pressure from victim advocate groups, and a sudden flood of media attention, which has finally forced our own public services to begin protecting them, and accosting the gang members. Hopefully the trade will begin the die out now that they have been shamed into taking the trafficking of these girls seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 12 - 03:55 AM

Thanks for the explanation, CS. I guess by 'internal trafficking gangs' you meant international? No criticism of using the wrong word - I suffer from that more than most as shown earlier this thread! If it was international then I can see why you mention Pakistan. I may disagree but at least understand the point now. If, however, this really was part of an international gang we should be looking wider than Asia surely? The gangs must operate all over the world. They may run by anyone, living anywhere. Their clients, like their victims, are as likely to come from Robertstown, Rwanda or Little Rock as they are from Rochdale. I think by singling out a particular part of the organisation you may be falling into the trap laid by the far right and justifying the comments made about an all white jury being prejudice. Maybe? Just my opinion of course.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 May 12 - 03:58 AM

This was the first conviction for internal trafficking.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 11 May 12 - 04:58 AM

So far as I understand, the crimes in question, including on-street grooming and internal trafficking, involve predominantly Asian men of Pakistani origin.

"Former chief of prisons and head of children's charity Barnados Martin Narey said there was a clear link between Asian men and grooming in the north.
'Undeniably it seems to me, in the north there is a very significant over-representation of Asian men – frequently Pakistani men – in these terrible crimes,' he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme."

Others argue differently of course. And on reading up on this case, I see a lot of debate has surrounded arguments that the ethnicity and cultural background of the defendants is irrelevant. Which is a valid perspective, and one which is probably also wise, considering that the far right are apparently using crimes such as these, to further their cause.

But whether it validates claims that an all white jury would be prejudiced, I don't know. But it is possibly so. Either way, it would seem prudent -in any case- to include a mixture of races on any jury where the defendants are of one predominant ethnicity.

Now I'm leaving Mudcat to go on a camping holiday.. Byeee

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 May 12 - 05:06 AM

Ah - to be charged with camping with intent, no doubt...

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Penny S.
Date: 11 May 12 - 06:16 AM

I used to wonder, back in the innocent days when such rings were reported and identified as white, how, when the rings were not familial, the men recognised each other. A bit high risk, I would have thought, getting a group together from scratch. That was before the internet, of course.

I've seen it suggested in this case, that groups of men pushed together because of any reason find it easier to go down this road, and that racial groupings provide such groups. Priests were suggested as another such.

Are the white ones doing it via social networking sites rather than on the street?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 12 - 07:52 AM

'Paedophiles specifically are sexually attracted to non-sexually mature young children. A teen -either above or below the legal age of consent- who physically presents as a young woman, with a woman's physical shape and so-on, would not be sexually attractive to a paedophile'.

So a man who sexually abuses a 13-year old isn't a paedophile?

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 11 May 12 - 07:53 AM

That was me by the way. I can't believe some of the rubbish I read on here sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 May 12 - 09:07 AM

It depends on what the word means. It has become another catch-all insult, as has "fascist". It is not found in the Complete Oxford dictionary, but the grammatic root denotes childhood. I can see considerable rationality in the cutoff point for meaning being whether puberty has or has not been reached. The acceptability or otherwise of sexual activity between puberty and some age of consent is a social and legal construct.

Is a 14 year old boy with a 13 year old girlfriend a paedophile?

Our culture is hopelessly confused about this. On the one hand almost any person over puberty has sexual desire. Yet they are enjoined against acting on it. On the other hand is is current theory that the brain remains immature and unable to deal with the emotions that flow from sex until about 21. Ages of consent vary across the world. They have varied more in the relatively recent past.

For considerable time women have been regarded as more sexually desirable if younger - possibly a consequence of the Victorian obsession with virginity - but now depilation and not merely of the underarm presents women as infantile - and men are having body-waxes to remove chest hair and more.

The cultural message is "young is sexy" - and then there is a bright line drawn - a line that varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction - "but no younger than x".

In these circumstances it is hard to ascribe a rational and useful meaning to the word "paedophile" - unless it is coterminous with puberty.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: kendall
Date: 12 May 12 - 07:18 AM

If I had information on a child molester I would take it to the Police in a heart beat.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Brian May
Date: 12 May 12 - 01:14 PM

"If I had information on a child molester I would take it to the Police in a heart beat"

Bravo, absolutely and without exception irrespective of race, religion, ethnicity or any other label we can think of.

Personally, I'd like to see their oxygen stopped for 5 minutes, then give them all they can handle.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 12 May 12 - 04:02 PM

I was there, outside the court, opposing a far right demonstration, which had been mustered ostensibly to oppose paedophilia. I was there because the far right in fact were not motivated by any feelings of sympathy for the victims, or out of a desire to see justice done. They had simply found another excuse to hound the Muslim community. Sadly, it looks as though they have met with some success.

Everybody. Say this loud. Paedophilia is a sickening crime, and the convicted got everything they deserved. But there is no correlation WHATSOEVER between religion and/or ethnicity on the one hand and paedophilia on the other.

BTW. How many white sex tourist paedophiles have travelled to Thailand, Cambodia, India, Brazil or Mexico, so that they could freely interfere with under age Asian girls?

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 12 - 04:10 PM

Well done, Owen. And I hope that you just as strongly oppose the sick pervert who is trying to get off the charge by playing the race card.

I am not sure about your BTW though - What are you trying to imply? That white people are more likely to commit these crimes? If so then surely you are as guilty of prejudice as the people you are demonstrating against. If that is not your point - Why mention it at all?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 12 - 06:04 PM

Just announced on the news - Another 9 under arrest from Rochdale for 'grooming' and. probably, more . No further detail as it is early days. What is it about Rochdale? I worked there for a year and found it quite pleasent!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 12 - 08:00 PM

Is a 14 year old boy with a 13 year old girlfriend a paedophile?

Nope.

Our culture is hopelessly confused about this.

Really? And who do you suppose is trying to confuse you?


Personally, I'd like to see their oxygen stopped for 5 minutes, then give them all they can handle.

Which makes you far worse than they are. Well done.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 12 - 03:01 AM

Rochdale is not unique.
This is just the latest in a series of such cases across the North of England

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 12 - 03:59 AM

"Which makes you far worse than they are. Well done."

Ah but there wouldn't be any recidivism my way.

Last year I was a Prosecution witness in a paedophile case - my comment was from the heart.

You think I'm worse than them?

You sadly mis-guided individual, you have no idea what you're talking about (unless you do, of course). Generations of screwed up kids for one man's (in this case) perverted pleasure . . .

MY COMMENT STANDS - it should be a capital crime

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 12 - 04:00 AM

Guest above is Brian May

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Brian May
Date: 13 May 12 - 04:03 AM

THERE ! I have no wish to be anonymous if it strikes at paedophile scumbags.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 13 May 12 - 04:11 AM

The 'Concise Oxford Dictionary' gives the meaning of paedophillia simply as "sexual desire directed towards children". No mention as to whether they are prepubescent or not. I understand the youngest victim in the case was 13 and most were under the age of consent in the UK. That is the age where someone is regarded as a child. Hence certainly according to the COD, and the law in the UK, the accused are paedophiles.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Teribus
Date: 13 May 12 - 05:03 AM

Rochdale "Grooming-Ring" Mark 2 just about to be exposed

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 12 - 06:21 AM

Any more categories of people ripe for the noose you'd like to apprise us of, Brian? And thanks for the slur. Do have it back.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 13 May 12 - 06:23 AM

Dave. "I hope that you just as strongly oppose the sick pervert who is trying to get off the charge by playing the race card."

Of course. I would have thought that went without saying.

"I am not sure about your BTW though - What are you trying to imply? That white people are more likely to commit these crimes?"

No. I'm merely pointing out that the far right's attempts to portray this as a racial crime are completely without foundation. Plus, I have never heard anyone on the far right condemn, EG., paedophile Catholic priests, or paedophile care home workers, or paedophile sex tourists. But immediately they can make a bit of hay out of condemning Asians by calling them paedophiles, they are right there, baying for blood.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Brian May
Date: 13 May 12 - 06:45 AM

Any more categories of people ripe for the noose you'd like to apprise us of, Brian? And thanks for the slur. Do have it back.

IF you're having a go at me, that's fine, I can protect myself. For me, it goes with the territory (this forum) and I'm up for it.

IF you're defending the scumbags that do this sort of things to kids . . . then that is a different matter altogether.

I'm at least speaking about the subject from experience of dealing with the damage caused (6 damaged people at last count, but they're only the brave tip of the iceberg) - where are YOU coming from?

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Brian May
Date: 13 May 12 - 06:52 AM

In fact Steve I've re-read all your posts on this subject - you've not really contributed positively at all - have you?

In my book, considering the subject, I think I shall be ignoring anything further from you as an escape of air at 37 degrees Celsius.

Have a really nice day . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 13 May 12 - 07:23 AM

"Plus, I have never heard anyone on the far right condemn, EG., paedophile Catholic priests,"

I don't think you've looked very far then!

"Of course the sexual and physical abuse of children has been covered up for years and indeed centuries by the church of Rome and it's Pope.
But it seems to be particularly prevalent in Irish Catholicism and amongst Irish priests"

That is from a blog on the BNP Northern Ireland site. I'm not suggesting they aren't using the current case to attack Islam - just showing that they don't restrict it to Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 12 - 09:46 AM

(6 damaged people at last count,

Two years ago, Hilary Wilmer had 400 children on her file, all victims of this exact abuse and most unprosecuted.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 May 12 - 12:04 PM

There was a daycare center trial probably 20 - 25 years ago now. I think in North Carolina, but if not, it was in the east and the south. Parents and prosecutors started questioning children in such a way that they got affirmative answers regarding abuse and the owners of the day care and some employees were tried and imprisoned.

Trouble is, it never happened. None if it. It was the results of an "investigation" by an overzealous [read: poorly trained and unprofessional] social worker and prosecutor. It spread and claimed more victims before someone finally declared "enough already!" and proved it was bogus. The investigation, started by someone who didn't know what they were doing, resulted in a form of community hysteria. It was ugly to look at and there were in the end a lot of victims, but they were the adults fingered by the two who started it.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 13 May 12 - 01:08 PM

SRS - the McMartin Family in California.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 May 12 - 01:12 PM

That's the name - there may have been a similar event in the east. About then is when people were "remembering" things suppressed from childhood that never happened. Rosie O'Donnell et al. A sort of mass-hysteria set off by the first events, played skillfully by some unethical (or at the very least and most charitable, very-poorly trained counselors).

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Brian May
Date: 13 May 12 - 04:15 PM

As for the 'remembered' stuff which didn't happen, in the case I was involved with, certain witnesses 'evidence' was discounted as unreliable due to the (then) age of the 'victim'.

It DOES happen, and obviously the police and the Crown Prosecution Service were mindful of that. This was interference with a particular extended family, I KNOW more than six were affected, but some haven't come forward (oh I don't blame them) and others were considered less effective than the alternatives.

The perpetrator was jailed for 7 years. In my (slightly right wing view) is it should have been longer, however 'justice' has to some extent been seen to be done. At least the victims can now gather together the tatters of their life. The very people that they should have been trusting were the ones that abused them. That's so hard to bear.

This is why I hold more extreme views on the perpetrators than the normal reasoned, and reasonable outlook I normally take. Well that's my excuse anyway.

So as for the original post, the fact that these guys are Muslims just adds to my revulsion. The reason for that is this country (UK) has got SO PC and so afraid to be called racists, this gang get away with far more than they should if they were white Brits.

Their contempt for this country's laws and judiciary was blatant. They'll use the very laws intended to ensure fair play to ensure it's not FOR THE VICTIMS, don't we CARE about them?

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 12 - 04:31 PM

You don't have a normal, reasoned and reasonable outlook, Brian. People like you make Genghis Khan look like a liberal pinkie. Do continue to slag off people who don't take your extremist views. It's quite entertaining, in a gallows sort of way. Ugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Brian May
Date: 13 May 12 - 05:12 PM

37 degrees Celsius

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 12 - 05:48 PM

I once read an absolutely sickening book, written by a Christian zealot, who determined that all sexual abuse cases against members of the church as being made up by the children 'possesed by demons'. What was most sickening is that this sick person was trying to make politcal points on the backs of abused children.

I can see it happening here, I'm afraid. My whole point in raising this thread was that one of the 9 convicted was playing the race card to get away with it. The right have picked up on it, as have their opponents. It is no longer about children loosing their innocence but about who did what, who is worse and why the politicians are correct. The losers are, as always. the victims.

Carry on arguing if you must but remeber what this is all about.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 12 - 06:11 PM

Steve Shaw, you are a pain, you have to turn discussions into slagging off, can you not accept that other people have different views, without insulting them.
I am sickened by people who mess with vulnerable and defenceless children, I do not know how society should deal with these offenders, but I do know that the victims have their lives ruined.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 12 - 07:38 PM

Dick, you are pathetic. You lie low, wait for a controversy to arise then wade in with your ridiculous and wacky opinion at the eleventh hour. Have you actually read this thread? Do you not realise that the man you're siding with, Brian May, has called for the death of all so-called paedophiles? A term he doesn't even understand, despite the bullshit we're getting from him of his being a "prosecution witness blah-bloody-blah"? Mr effin' Expert?? Do you think for one single millisecond that, because I don't actually happen to go along with his ludicrous, antediluvian lynch-mob mentality, that it means I somehow support these evil bastards?? I mean, what's up with you, Dick? Are you a member of the hang-'em-and-flog-'em brigade as well? Don't you think that complete tossers like Brian May deserve to be, as you so daintily put it, slagged off? Whose side are you on, Dick? Why don't you toddle off and hide your head in shame at this terrible error of yours in your wading in to support this horrible man? The decent people who post here all know very well what Brian May is really like. Do try to keep up and prevent yourself from making an even bigger arse of yourself than you already are!

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 12 - 02:56 AM

Dave, I think he "played the race card" because it was his only chance to escape conviction.
His lawyers tried to get the jury thrown out.
It might have worked.
It still might. He is to appeal.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Penny S.
Date: 14 May 12 - 07:42 AM

Possibly the thing about Rochdale is that it has a very active Crown Prosecution Officer (?title), himself a Muslim, who is determined that such cases will not be dropped because of some perceived failing in the victim, and resurrected this case after it had been turned down by his predecessor.

He was on the radio, either yesterday or Saturday, and he pointed out the proportions of men of different backgrounds involved in various types of grooming and exploitation. There is a far higher proportion of taxi drivers than any particular race, and it was stated that the opportunity for networking was critical.

Sunday programme

I think it's in here.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 May 12 - 09:31 AM

Steve , your post tells everyone a lot about yourself.
I have made my position quite clear about paedophiles, read my posts, I do not believe they should be hanged and flogged.
I have more sympathy for the victim than for the perpetrators, now Steve,take your hateful attempts to misrepresent me somewhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 12 - 09:55 AM

I didn't "misrepresent you". I asked you some questions in respect of your unwelcome intervention.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 May 12 - 11:00 AM

Ihave no idea who brian may is, but everyone has a right to express their opinion on this forum, but here are the rules
Be aware that our forum is Free.

Anonymity and Guest Posting are permitted.

You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty, or either FOR or AGAINST that of-what-we-do-not-speak.

Be aware of what personal information you decide to share within the forum. It is public. Unlike Facebook, there is NO PRIVACY at all.

We care about your safety but we are not in the business of protecting you. Your kind and civil behavior is your best protection.   
   Steve, stop talking rubbish, how can saying "I am sickened by people who mess with vulnerable and defenceless children, I do not know how society should deal with these offenders, but I do know that the victims have their lives ruined. i do not know the answer"
" what is wacky about that
neither have i waded in at the eleventh hour, the very third post was mine and i made my views clear here
"how are they to be handled? they may have served prison sentences and think they have paid for their crimes, but their victims have been permanently scarred."
it is you who clearly has not read all the posts, now i suggest you go back to www.session.org where you can be rude[yes calling me pathetic is rude] and you are also inaccurate[ i have not waded in at the eleventh hour] and it is in fact you who has not read the posts properly .
I do not agree with Brian May but he has a right to make his point, neither am I siding with him, you behave in a puerile manner reminiscent of school bullies.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Brian May
Date: 14 May 12 - 01:47 PM

My, my Mr Shaw does get wound up . . . perhaps he 'protests too much'. . .

As I said, 37 degrees Celsius.

I must agree about the 'puerile manner reminiscent of school bullies'. I still think paedophiles should rot in Hell and it'll be a cold day there before I change that view.

I shall desist from further comment as I've made my views clear and am comfortable with what I have said - whether our mate Steve likes it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 12 - 02:09 PM

I for one I'm glad you're going away. As for you. Dick old fruit, you waded back in after a long absence from this thread with "Steve Shaw, you are a pain..." in the middle of (for want of a better word) a discussion in which you were not taking part. So who's puerile?

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 May 12 - 03:06 PM

you are puerile, rude and inaccurate,
just because I had not commented it does not mean I was not following the thread,I allow people to have different points of view from myself without insulting them, it is called tolerance.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 May 12 - 03:57 PM

Nothing like a little shit-slinging to liven up one's day, eh wot?

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 May 12 - 04:22 PM

It's obvious that people are reading posts with a "tone of voice" in their heads that leads to negative or mis-readings of the subject and contexts. If you enter the thread expecting trouble, chances are you'll find it.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 12 - 07:07 AM

For the record,
I haven't participated in this thread because quite honestly I'm sick to the back teeth with people who have attempted to make these crimes 'racist' - even to the extent of suggestng that all male Pakistanis are potential perverts due to a "cultural implant" which has to be resisted.
Despite my decision not to get involved, I am now recieving PMs from our Klan representative in Hertford suggesting exactly that - I request publicly that he desists.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 12 - 07:13 AM

I was disappointed that you had nothing to say.
I sent this.
Sorry if it offended you.

Do you still deny an over-representation?
Any contribution for the thread?
From a letter in Guardian,
" the fact reiterated regularly by Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of the Ramadhan Foundation, that out of 77 recent convictions for grooming, rape and other predatory sex crimes, 67 involved Pakistani men. Analysis of five police investigations into these horrendous activities has revealed that 94% of the perpetrators were Asian."

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 12 - 07:34 AM

Over the past year Jim, you have raked up this subject over and over again, in threads that were completely unrelated to the issue.

I repeatedly asked you to desist, because you were hijacking and spoiling otherwise interesting threads.

Now that we actually do have a thread on that very issue, silence from Jim.
I just don't get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 12 - 07:38 AM

I'm far to old and too busy to take on a stalker - piss off!!
Jim Carroll
"you were hijacking and spoiling"
By the way - WE fucked up threads between us - no more Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 12 - 07:43 AM

It was always you who raised the issue.
It was always me who asked you to stop, or go to pms.
Now you have lost your enthusiasm.
Why is obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 12 - 02:01 PM

I don't think there was anyone suggesting the crimes were racist until you mentioned it, Jim. I know there is a lot of history but not every thread on this topic is the same.

I started this one in particular because one of the men found guilty is trying to wangle his way out of it by protesting that the jury were racist. It is, in my mind, a cynical and sickening use of the race card to mask the real issues. It is no wonder that the far right jump on the bandwagon when idiots like that give them all the ammunition they need.

Just so as you know.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 12 - 02:48 PM

"I don't think there was anyone suggesting the crimes were racist until you mentioned it, Jim."
No Dave - I was a little taken aback by how subdued Keith was in comparison to past performances, but this was the PM I received this afternoon, apparently in an attempt to bait me into this particular fray.
His claim that the vandalising of past threads is down to me rings somewhat hollow, doncha think?
"Do you still deny an over-representation?
Any contribution for the thread?
From a letter in Guardian,
"the fact reiterated regularly by Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of the Ramadhan Foundation, that out of 77 recent convictions for grooming, rape and other predatory sex crimes, 67 involved Pakistani men. Analysis of five police investigations into these horrendous activities has revealed that 94% of the perpetrators were Asian.""
Paki (or Asian in general)- bashing or wot?
He apparently hasn't the bottle to make these claims openly after the floor-wipings he has received of late, but chooses to make them privately in PMs.
Don't all racists have a yellow streak running up their back?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 12 - 03:17 PM

Dave knew about the pm Jim.
I posted the contents earlier.
The quote was made by a prominent British Pakistani, so no question of it being Pakistani bashing.
I would never use the racist expression "Paki"
You should not either Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: akenaton
Date: 15 May 12 - 03:48 PM

Wot goes around, comes around.

Game set and match to Keith I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Rochdale paedophile ring busted
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 12 - 06:07 PM

This THREAD has become ridiculous. I find it beyond belief that one member should goad another by PM into responding here.
Keith give it a rest