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Its why people dont go to folk clubs....
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: SunrayFC Date: 09 Aug 12 - 01:01 PM I feel I should say something.... |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 09 Aug 12 - 01:20 PM Thank you Mr B. Have you copyrighted that phrase, by any chance? |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 09 Aug 12 - 01:34 PM Nowt to do with me, Shimrod - I'm just channeling this stuff for a chap called Exeter from the planet Metaluna. Scientists? Schmientists! Forgive my bias (and curse my enthusiasm) but really things haven't been the same for me since they installed this wretched Interrossiter chip in the old amygdala. |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: GUEST,Charles Macfarlane Date: 09 Aug 12 - 01:49 PM > From: GUEST,Blandiver > > > You might say our uniqueness is defined by the diverse nature of the parameters of our similarity > > Crivvens again! That's a wonky one even by my standards. > > Well, I'd say our diverse individuality (subjectively / culturally) is that which defines our humanity. You probably don't realise it but that is actually ambiguous. By using 'that which' instead of 'what' - something I do frequently - you've given that statement two possible meanings. I'm pretty sure you mean ... "Our individuality defines our humanity" ... and if that's what you meant, why not just say that, instead of using the laboured, long-winded, and, as it turns out, ambiguous phrasing that you did? The other possible meaning is ... "Our individuality is whatever defines our humanity" ... which says something rather different. Either way, it's wrong anyway ... > It is the differences that make us what we are as both individuals Fine so far > and as a species; The exact opposite of the truth. It's the commonality between us that defines us as a species. |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken Date: 09 Aug 12 - 02:06 PM If anyone wants any help with Mr Blandiver's pronouncements, ask me – I know exactly what he means. It's not hard – trust me. >The exact opposite of the truth. That's good enough for me! By the by, I'm still waiting for Charles to supply the documentary evidence of my obsession with the 1954 Definition. I promise I won't eat or sleep until he provides it. |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: johncharles Date: 09 Aug 12 - 02:08 PM "Dear Master Macfarlane, little Jack's composition may be a little confusing at times. It's the bells you know; ring, ring, ring, he goes all hours of the day. Yours, Mrs. Blandiver." p.s. Jack there is no teasing some people. |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: GUEST,Charles Macfarlane Date: 09 Aug 12 - 02:31 PM > From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken > > By the by, I'm still waiting for Charles to supply the documentary evidence of my obsession with the 1954 Definition. I promise I won't eat or sleep until he provides it. Obviously, the remark was aimed rather more at Blandiver than yourself. So far, the phrase 1954 occurs 23 times in this thread, oops there's another one, but it is necessary to distinguish between original invocations in relation to the Definition, and those that are quoted in reply and the one that is coincidental. The score for original invocations is: Blandiver: 12 Yourself: 1 So, you can see that noone else here is interested. It's just Blandiver riding his hobby-horse, or rather flogging it to death, and at one point you went along for the ride. |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken Date: 09 Aug 12 - 03:02 PM >and at one point you went along for the ride Thank you for that illuminating definition of "obsessed". Now I can take to my bed a bit more knowledgable than when I left it. |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 09 Aug 12 - 03:28 PM Actually it's Richard who still has faith in the 1954 Definition - he'll frequently mention it in his posts when referring to 'real' (or Traditional) folk songs. It was his somewhat humourless contradiction of my wee jape over the 1954 Japananese Karaoke Singer fulfilling the 1954 criteria that caused the present unpleasantness, though for some reason Macfarlane thinks it has nothing to do with the discussion. Go figure. It's the commonality between us that defines us as a species. If there was such a thing as commonality, Macfarlane, you'd be celebrating our differences with sweet brotherly love instead of hurling your diarrhoea at me like an enraged baboon. It's the differences that matter, and the uniqueness, the diversity, and the blessed fact you are nothing like me, nor I like you. And for that fact alone you me count me a very happy bunny indeed. * It's the bells you know; ring, ring, ring, he goes all hours of the day The days she can generally cope with; the nights, however, are a different kettle o' fish... |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: TheSnail Date: 09 Aug 12 - 03:38 PM I'd just like to say that, having been around traditional music and song for about forty years, I had never heard of the 1954 definition before I joined Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: The Sandman Date: 09 Aug 12 - 04:07 PM ah,an appearance from The Snail,perhaps a voice of sanity is in this ocean of delusion |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: GUEST,Charles Macfarlane Date: 09 Aug 12 - 04:19 PM > From: GUEST,Blandiver > Date: 09 Aug 12 - 03:28 PM > > > It's the commonality between us that defines us as a species. > > If there was such a thing as commonality, Macfarlane, you'd be celebrating our differences with sweet brotherly love instead of hurling your diarrhoea at me like an enraged baboon. Again, you are quite simply wrong. You accuse me of "hurling your diarrhoea at me like an enraged baboon", but what have you been doing all this time? You previously accused me of being aggressive & insulting, but so have you in at least equal measure. Your very hypocrisy shows that we are much, much more alike than you care to admit. > It's the differences that matter, and the uniqueness, the diversity, and the blessed fact you are nothing like me, nor I like you. And for that fact alone you me count me a very happy bunny indeed. Again, this is simply wrong, I am much more like you than different from you. You're confusing what distinguishes individuals in a species with what defines a species. |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: Steve Gardham Date: 09 Aug 12 - 04:40 PM Raymond, Thank-you for your offer of translation. I fear this is going to be a full-time job. Does this also cover material already posted? I was rather amused at your idea of Jim and me on the same board. (I'm very definitely not a member of the '54' club, though I do find it useful when cataloguing). I actually agree with bits of what Jack says, which is often those few bits which I can follow. |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 09 Aug 12 - 05:10 PM ,perhaps a voice of sanity is in this ocean of delusion Come on in, GSW - the water's lovely! |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken Date: 09 Aug 12 - 05:27 PM >Thank-you for your offer of translation. I fear this is going to be a full-time job. Does this also cover material already posted? Hmmm – let me think about that... |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: Musket Date: 10 Aug 12 - 04:01 AM 2012 definition Still trying to change the world with three chords and a plan, after all these years..... |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: Richard Bridge Date: 10 Aug 12 - 04:50 AM Copyright arises automatically so nothing has to be "copyrighted". However the English law relating to works with no human author is murky - see Ssn 9(3) and 178 CDPA 1988. |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: the lemonade lady Date: 10 Aug 12 - 05:01 AM Wild Rover is a bonus track on our live CD, but is very different. Lol! Sal |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 10 Aug 12 - 07:20 AM In my dealings with Exeter over the years I've established that he is human, despite his extra-terrestrial status. Indeed, he insists (and who am I to doubt him?) that it was due to the intervention of extra-terrestrial intelligences some 50,000 years ago that humanity owed it's 'Great Leap' into the realms of culture & cognition without which we'd still be scrambling around in the primordial wilderness and the Arts & Sciences (much less the Folk Arts & Folk Sciences) would never have existed. In the murky realms of mythology, religion and folklore we find hints that this is the case, everything from The Bible to current UFOlore (and before & beyond), though I've seldom come across a positive spin on it. Even the brilliant Quatermass & the Pit is none too positive, and the long awaited (30 years!) Prometheus even less so. |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 11 Aug 12 - 04:29 AM Perhaps the answer is more obvious. and All we actually need are big signs outside the pubs saying FOLK MUSIC CLUB here! |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 11 Aug 12 - 05:11 AM I recall wandering into the back room of a certain pub back in 1979 with a friend, both of us post-punk / proto Goth Romantic, Marcia in heavy make-up, and dressed to kill, and being looked at in horror by the others who were making ready for the evening. They whispered amongst themselves and delegated one of their number to approach us. 'Er - actually - it's a Folk Club in here tonight,' he said, most put out as we sat at a corner table with out pints and fags. 'We know,' said Marcia. 'We've come to see The Watersons.' 'Oh - we thought - well - we don't usually get your sort in here - ' 'Frost and Fire mate,' laughed Marcia. 'It's a f*cking classic. I was brought up with it.' Of course back then your average folkie would have been in their late 20s (I was 17 / Marcia 15). Strange times, but typical of your friendly folk vibe, then as now. |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 12 Aug 12 - 03:20 AM I still think a big sign could be the answer. |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 12 Aug 12 - 04:58 AM To paraphrase the late great Julius Henry Marx - I would join no Folk Club that would have me as a member. |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: Leadfingers Date: 12 Aug 12 - 06:39 PM Another BRIEF insert - not as long winded as some posts - There are two 'Folk Clubs' within easy reach of my hovel that I DONT go to simply because NONE of the floor singers can sing without the Bloody Words, and often held up between the singer and the audience . Where does THAT fit the 1954 definition ?? |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: Tootler Date: 12 Aug 12 - 07:52 PM Using words or otherwise has absolutely nothing to do with the 1954 definition. Anyway, why shouldn't people have the words in front of them when they sing? As long as they make a decent job of singing the song it doesn't matter a damn how they they do it or what aids they use. I know some very good singers who always have their words in front of them. It's a safety blanket. |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: Richard Bridge Date: 13 Aug 12 - 03:02 AM Eye contact helps convey a song. Same in karaoke. Words sit uneasily with the transmission mechanisms envisaged by the 1954 definition, but it is a part of it which I have argued should be altered. |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: The Sandman Date: 13 Aug 12 - 03:30 AM Tootler, frequently they do not make a god job of it, because they do not know the song well. for a trained actor the situation is different he/she has acquired a reading and interpreting skill, most floorsingers reading from words do not have that skill,I have come across one or two exceptions. is it acceptable for paid guests to have words? if it is not , then it could be argued that the same standard could be applied to floor singers. another point against floor singers having words is that it creates a small barrier between them and the audience. part of the skill of performing [in my opinion]is the abilty to ad lib if there is a temporary memory lapse |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: GUEST,Don Wise Date: 13 Aug 12 - 05:09 AM Speaking from experience......... Learning the song or tune by heart so that you can perform it without a crib-sheet gives you a much more personal, intimate relationship with it. It's this which can turn an, on the face of it, trite or uninteresting song/tune into one which grips the listener. As far as tunes for dancing are concerned, a bandleader who learns his tunes can rescue a potentially shambolic ceilidh. One who is unable to see over the top of his/her music stand will play blindly on whilst chaos spreads across the dance floor. Don |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: johncharles Date: 13 Aug 12 - 05:50 AM If I am doing a gig with our group then yes learning the words is essential. If i do a floor spot then sometimes I will have the words particularly if it is a new song. Poets always seem to read the words do they have an exemption? As for oral transmission I think this something of a lost art in our highly literate and technological society. john |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: Leadfingers Date: 13 Aug 12 - 08:46 AM I have NO problem with any performer at a Singaround doing a NEW (To Them) song having an Aide Memoire , but holding the Bloody Book in front of your face is (In MY Opinion) BLOODY Rude This (NO offence to our Transpond Members) is a habit that has sadly crawled across the Atlantic - " I will now sing from Page 76 0f Sing Out" is the cue for MUCH page rustling as EVERYONE gets the book out ! |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: The Sandman Date: 13 Aug 12 - 12:48 PM One who is unable to see over the top of his/her music stand will play blindly on whilst chaos spreads across the dance floor. anarchy on the ukceili |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: Don Firth Date: 13 Aug 12 - 02:44 PM I've seen and heard Pete Seeger, Peggy Seeger, Ewan McColl, Joan Baez, Theodore Bikel, Richard Dyer-Bennet, Sandy Paton, and several dozen other well-known singers of folk songs live and in concert, and I have NEVER seen a singer in those lofty heights of professionalism use a crib sheet. I have also seen a number of what might be called "real" folk singers (grew up in the tradition) such as Lightnin' Hopkins, Mance Lipscomb, Mississippi John Hurt, and Almeda Riddle at folk festivals and in concert. And they didn't use crib sheets either. I have never used them myself, nor did I have cue cards when I was on live television. Anyone who aspires to sing for other people, whether professionally or just for fun should have enough respect for their audiences that they LEARN the song. I once had a voice teacher who had me bring my guitar to the lessons, and after we had gone through the routine of vocal exercises and matters of vocal technique, he would have me sing whatever song I happened to be working on at the time. He would often stop me in mid-verse and ask me "What, exactly, does that line mean?" Now, he knew perfectly well what it meant, but he wanted to make sure that I knew what it meant and wasn't just singing it by rote—like, unfortunately, many people do. He wanted me to know what the song was all about, the better to be able to put it across to the audience. It's an essential part of the minstrel's art. Don Firth P. S. Now, I might use a crib sheet taped to a microphone in a recording session, just to make sure I don't blow the words—which everyone does from time to time—and save having to do a re-take. When you're paying for recording studio time, retakes can get a bit pricey. But in front of a live audience? Tacky! |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: Don Firth Date: 13 Aug 12 - 03:11 PM But what about blowing the words in front of a live audience? Not good! But audiences are generally quite forgiving. Unless, of course, you do it a lot. One or two brief goofs per concert is generally forgotten when the concert is over. And everyone does it. The first time I heard Pete Seeger live, he forgot the words in one line of a song. But other than a brief hiccup in the rhythm, most people didn't even notice it. I did, because I knew the song. But Seeger covered it masterfully by making up the next line on the spot (one of the advantages of knowing the words and knowing what they mean and what the song is about, which is one of the reasons Mr. Street, my voice teacher, kept at me about knowing what the words mean and what the song is all about). In classic guitar concerts, I've seen Segovia blow it a couple of times. I was very familiar with the pieces he was playing, one of which I had attempted myself. But he covered so smoothly that only another classic guitarist, who was familiar with the piece, would notice—and marvel at how smoothly he covered it! On one occasion on the "Ballads and Books" television series, I was singing "The Gypsy Davey" and blanked out on the next verse. As I said, live, no cue cards. PANIC! I launched into playing the melody line on the guitar, and by the time I got to the end of the tune of the verse, I remembered the next verse. Careful questioning of a couple of people I knew watched the show established that everyone assumed that I had intended to do it that way. You can't really pull shenanigans like that unless you know the song. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 13 Aug 12 - 03:55 PM Its like a Shakespeare speech really - you can't get the intensity without knowing the words. having said that Don - in this age of teleprompters. I think things are going the other way. Its like the times table - kids today they'll find a way of doing everything without knowing anything at all. |
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Subject: RE: Its why people dont go to folk clubs.... From: Northerner Date: 15 Sep 12 - 05:52 AM I was at a folk concert at my local town hall last night. We had Martin Carthy and Dave Swarbrick giving two one hour sets. They were good though I do prefer a folk club setting rather than a concert. It was well attended. I looked round the room and wondered why more of that audience didn't support the local folk clubs. |
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