bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?

Subject: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: DrWord
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 10:34 AM

Twice in as many days! As I bring music to seniors, I often remember my mother singing the lyrics to Redwing, and they were *not* the ones in the DigiTrad titles list. A similar thing happened when I was showing off the Mudcat's coolness to a senior citizen, and the first hit for My Grandfather's Clock was a bawdy parody. Yes, I did find the lyrics in the database :) But perhaps there could be some annotation [like @bawdy] to let the browser know before s/he clicks. Thoughts, people?

Dennis

---

We were aware of this problem for quite a while before we were able to fix it. Jeff worked out a new "titles" list quite some time ago, and it doesn't have the same problem.
-Joe Offer, June, 2004-

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: Magpie
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 10:52 AM

Hell, I like bawdy! Bawdy's nice. Or am I sick?

Magpie

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: Magpie
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 10:53 AM

Oh, by the way: No offence intended!

Magpie

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 10:55 AM

Most of the senior's I've known would probably prefer the bawdy lyrics. *g*

It is a good suggestion, and one that might be best brought to DickG's attention. (Though I suppose there might be a way for the MudCat Elves to flag the titles based on the @bawdy in the index....)

However it would be done, though, it is probably going to take a great deal of work...which means there will be some kind of delay before implimentation, even once it was decided to do it.

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: Jon W.
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 10:56 AM

Hey, I'm as prudish as anyone but I would never want the bawdy songs to be removed from the DT. They are after all, the most orally transmitted, died in the wool traditional songs we have. But I agree, a warning to the wary probably would not be amiss. And it could even help Magpie find the bawdy songs s/he is looking for.

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 10:57 AM

You ought to be able to type in "[my grandfather's clock] NOT @bawdy", or something similar. I just tried it, but it didn't work. There's got to be a way...

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 10:59 AM

FINDING the bawdy songs is no problem. Do a search for "@bawdy" --- theres several hundred as I recall. The problem is flagging them in such a way that when they come up on some other search so that the squeemish are warned off.

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 11:07 AM

Hey, here's one senior who prefers bawdy.. got a good collection myself.. now, if I could remember where I put it...

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: Bert
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 11:09 AM

From Digitrad Lyrics search help....
search for

[red wing] not @bawdy

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: Magpie
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 11:11 AM

Thank you Mmario and John W.

Yes, SHE would be pleased to find tha bawdy song without having to browse through al the boring stuff. *BG*

Magpie

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 11:30 AM

for Jeri (and others):
there's a way to do it and you have found it alright. If I copy your phrase and use it for a Digitrad search I only get the one song and not the bawdy variant (you made a typo, perhaps). To use a search word or a phrase and add NOT @bawdy is the perfect way to do it.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 12:57 PM

For those who use the downloaded DT, the syntax is different. You'd type [Red Wing] {not} @bawdy.

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: Margo
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 04:17 PM

Funny you should mention this. I just had the exact same thing happen to me yesterday. I had previously found the lyrics to Grandfather's clock. I don't know how I searched, but the original song came up right away. Then yesterday, I decided to print the lyrics, and without looking, I began to print the bawdy parody. Thankfully, I noticed right away and cancelled the print job. I sang that song this morning at the pre-school, and I'm glad I had the right words!

It seems to me that the parody ought not be what comes up when you click on "Grandfather's CLock". After all, I was in the alphabetical listing.......I will have to be more careful.
Margarita

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: paddymac
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 04:36 PM

Bawdy, like beauty, is pretty much in the eye of the beholder. The great danger I see in being overly sensitive to the bawdy beauty is that it leads to a very subtle censorship creep. I don't want to be the one to say what is or is not bawdy, nor, I pray, does any other sentient being. I'm not insensitive to the concern raised by Dennis, but I am far more concerned about censorship and PC-ness. I note also that there is a distinction between "bawdy", which to me implies clever wordplay, and obnoxious obscenity, which to me is devoid of cleverness and class. But even that "stuff" can sometimes bring a chuckle. The real problem, dear friends, is that there just aren't any bright-line distinctions. If there were, I trust the Supreme Court would have found them long ago. Remember, there are still some people who believe that dancing is obscene.

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: Margo
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 04:46 PM

I'm not suggesting cencorship. I just mean that when you click on the alphabetical listing "Grandfather's CLock, the song that comes up should be that song, not a parody. Put the parody after the real version, and like wise list it under it's own alphabetical listing, Grandfather's COCK. Just a matter of the alphabet, nothing more. Margo

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: Bert
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 05:01 PM

Dick is looking for a replacement for AskSam.
Remember 'Moose Turd Pie' :-)

Moniti estis - (you have been warned)

Bert

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: JedMarum
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 06:51 PM

I am not bothered by bawdy. I understand there may be a very instances where it produce an embarassing moment, but then I understand there are some of those lyrics here.

As far as the old folks appreciating (or not) bawdy words ... I remember some church friends of mine asked me to attend a party in Boston, and bring my guitar because they were bringing their 100 year lady friend from the nursing home where one of them worked, and she was a fiddle player. Well that sweet, fun loving old lady had some of the bawdiest, knee slapping stories I ever heard! She was by far the free-est spirit at that party. My young freinds were a bit embarassed, but I loved it! She was a great fiddler too ... laughed and laughed, and sang and told tales of growing up in Nova Scotia, and hte consequences of slippin' out behind the barn at the 'hoe down' cook out parties she attended as a younger woman ... much like the cook party my friends were having for her.

She was blind, but saw more humor in the day than those of us several decades her junior!

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: poet
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 07:03 PM

Dancing is obscene it is after all a vertical expression of a horizontal desire and they are BOTH fun.

Graham.

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 08:36 PM

Most, but not all, of our @bawdy songs are double entendre songs rather than the "how many dirty words can we string together" type. They are not terribly offensive to most people and children too young to catch the illusions won't find anything wrong and those who do understand are old enough to understand. Just check what you are looking at and don't use the ones you are not interested in.
When you do a search the computer produces a list of anything meeting the search criteria - it does not know original from parody from anything else.

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 09:18 PM

Yes, but the keywords in digital tradition includes "parody", so you can use that to hunt out or to evade parodies, just like you can with "bawdy"

But in any case some of the liveliest songs aren't the parodies but the versions originally collected". Any number of the versions of English folk songs most widely known are toned down versions ("parodies" you could say) re-written by collectors to eliminate the bawdry.

But I'm relieved to see that the keywords section doesn't include the horrible euphemism "adult". I once made the mistake of typing "adult literacy" into a type engine, without putting the quote marks in.

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 09:19 PM

That should have been search engine

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: Margo
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 09:29 PM

Hmmm, I see my thought has not been addressed. Don't you think you should get what you've clicked on? I mean, if you've clicked on Grandfather's CLOCK then you should get that song. I'm not against having the parodies in the database, I just think they should be under their own alphabetical listing. Make sense? Margo

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 09:37 PM

I can see why the parody is linked to the song, but I do believe the original should at least come up first.

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: _gargoyle
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 10:14 PM

Can you say......

PRUDE?

Those senior citizens can probably teach us a lot.

Listen, write down their lyrics.. and contribute!

Don't let it go to dust!

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: JedMarum
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 11:48 PM

Margarita - I believe your point is correct. Ya oughtta get the song ya clicked on. I suspect there was either an error by the clicker (didn;t really click what he thought) or, as it sounds in this case, a error by the lister of database tunes as to the title.

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 01:22 AM

some ladies came calling on Dr. Samuel Johnson, who had written a dictionary, to complain...

"Dr. Johnson, there are improper words in your dictionary!!"

Replied Dr. Johnson.."Madam, you have been looking for them!"

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: Margo
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 02:08 AM

Thank you Jeri.

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 07:54 AM

You're welcome, Margarita. Anyone can search for lyrics, easily offended adults or kids...the kids probably would love the bawdy parody, but their parents would have a cow. I know people who do bawdy songs, but they're offended by parodies. You can't please everyone, and you shouldn't try, but I do believe clicking on a song title should bring up that song. For folks who haven't actually tried it, when you click on My Grandfather's CLock in the alpha index, what you see is My Grandfather's Cock. Probably a boo-boo.

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: Bert
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 09:45 AM

Margarita, The problem is most likely an error in the index. If you do a 'search' for grandfather, you get the real thing. I suspect that AskSam doesn't handle duplicate entries very well.

Susan and Dick, you're BAD PEOPLE you should be PERFECT like all of the rest of us here at Mudcat;-)

Now cut 'em some slack guys.

Bert.

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: Margo
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 11:36 AM

Calm down Bert, I just threw the info out. I didn't mean it as a criticizm of anyone. Hard to tell attitude sometimes without body language or voice inflection, but I do try to keep my verbage to an even tone. Sorry if I sounded like a whiner. I hate whiners. Margo

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: Bert
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 11:58 AM

OK, Margo, point taken. BUT, there's always a but isn't there :-), - I felt that over 20 posts about one little error in the system was a bit excessive. There are about 8000 songs in the database which are collected and put in by hand, for free. I used to do data checking for a living and I know that the best accuracy you can get is about 99.5% if everything is double checked.

Susan and Dick are pleased to hear about any errors that we find. Just one message is fine though.

Also, I am looking into designing a better search engine so if any of you have any thoughts as to how it should work, please send me a personal message.

Bert.

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: Margo
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 01:49 PM

I'm sorry Bert, I know nothing about the workings of the computer, I'm just a user. At your first mention of AskSam I didn't know what you were talking about. Now I understand it is a program. I can always ask Jack if he has any ideas; he's a systems man for a living, so he's both a hardware and software man. If I do get a suggestion, I'll use the message page. Thanks, Margo

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: Allan S.
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 03:29 PM

My grandfather must have had a cock otherwise I wouldn't be here. While teaching high school biology I made the statement "Don't forget what ever you can think of someone has done already, Don't forger that grand ma and grand pa were in the back seat of the horse and buggy- To which one of my students REPLIED NOT MY GRANDPARENTS THEY WOULD NEVER DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 05:33 PM

One way to find exactly what you want is to use the full text search, rather than the titles search (which I personally find fairly useless, and don't bother with). Entering [Grandfather's Clock] in the search box displays both the clean and dirty titles; you can pick which you want. Or if you're easily offended, just search for [Grandfather's Clock] not @bawdy, and you'll be safe.

The downloadable version, not having the benefit of all that Windows technology, doesn't have this problem; you can do a full-text search of just the titles.

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: Margo
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 08:01 PM

Thank you Dick.

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 04:57 AM

"Thank you Dick" - now is that bawdy or not?

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: DrWord
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 01:30 AM

I tried to post when this thread was at about eight posts, but the server was waaaay busy. I am a professional cataloguer, and Margo is right, and everybody said appropriate and sensible things. Title indices are an appropriate entry to the relational database, and My Grandfather's Cock should follow My Grandfather's Clock. I'm happy with 99.5% :) --and I could easily post a hundred bawdy parodies myself.

So what are the NONPARODY words to "Red Wing" ?????

Dennis

Subject: RE: bawdy warning in DigiTrad titles index?
From: paddymac
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 06:46 AM

Dennis - please don't say "I could easily post a hundred bawdy parodies". Just say "I WILL post a hundred bawdy parodies. :>)