BS: Racism in the UK media

Subject: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 04:59 AM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/22/how-racism-takes-root?INTCMP=SRCH

In the above article Joseph Harker discusses the different ways in which the media treated two cases of systematic grooming of the young for sexual purposes. In one case the perpetrators were Muslim. In the other largely not.

I wonder if those who have posted here in criticism of Muslim communities and values would like to re-evaluate their contributions to this debate to date.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 07:06 AM

I did post criticisms, but they came from the community in question.

When Straw put this story into the media, he acknowledged from the start that most child abusers were white, and so did I.

The story was about a particular kind of child abuse; that of men colluding in gangs to groom, abuse and pimp large numbers of minors.
(The above story is about lone paedophiles.)

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Stu
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 07:49 AM

Institutionalised racism in the UK?

Who'd of thought it.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 08:14 AM

Please also read this Daily Telegraph piece.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9252003/Rochdale-grooming-trial-Mohammed-Shafiq-the-campaigner-who-stood-up-to-the-abusers.html#

(Link maker does not work on Telegraph. Sorry)

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:14 AM

Interesting! Children are suffering, but you prefer to criticize the politico-social attitudes of those who expose the abusers.

Look, just admit to yourself "I can't handle this," and send some money to a good organization which is trying to help such children. Than get on with your life.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:43 AM

Trigger finger at the expense of any given accused group will not achieve best outcomes for the children. Nor for the accused minority group.

Keith - we've probably all seen that before. It rather makes my point I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:53 AM

not achieve best outcomes for the children.

The Rochdale abuse could have been stopped years earlier but for community sensitivities, and no doubt many other cases.

Did you read the Telegraph piece?
What have you seen before that you are dismissing?
What is the point you think it makes?

Please be explicit.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 10:44 AM

I think prejudice and racism exist in many types of reaction to crime. For instance, Brits abroad are 'drunkards', Lithuanians 'skim bank cards at ATMs' or 'steal metal', Nigerians 'run scams', 'commit witchcraft crimes' etc etc. The trouble is that the media don't give the whole picture but report sensational and 'interesting' cases that may sell papers. After 9/11, one can understand but not condone the fear of the American people of Muslim fundamentalist terrorism, but we should all try to see things in a rational way. Statistics (objectively obtained) can help to balance the picture. But most folk have gut reactions and are quick to condemn out of anger and fear. I don't see how that can be modified, it's only natural and human to lose trust in a group who 'appear' to be doing terrible things in our country. Balance and fairness in reporting is the only way, but there's no 'sensation' in that is there?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 11:09 AM

The Guardian article posted by Richard in the OP is based pretty well entirely, AFICS, on comparison between a single trial in Rochdale of an organised gang who had worked in collusion, passing girls among one another &c on the one hand; and on the other a series of separate trials in Derby over a certain period [unspecified so far as I can see] of men not even acquainted with one another, let alone acting in any sort of collusion, the only connection between whom being that they had been accused of similar crimes.

I genuinely do not see the point of the comparison being made. It's as if, at the time of the Great Train Robbery, someone had objected to the press reporting of it because money gets stolen by criminals all the time.

What point of comparison, precisely, was Mr Harker meaning to draw attention to? How is the comparison, if at all viable, meant to show a proponderance of "Racism in the UK Media" [Richard's title for this thread]?

I offer no opinion as to whether such racism is to be found in our media; I am simply exercised as to how these two separate instances – an incident/a series of incidents – are supposed to illustrate it.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 11:42 AM

Harker states, "Of the daily papers, only the Guardian and the Times reported it (the Derby cases)."

The Daily Mail did.
The Independent did.

He really does not make a case for media racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 05:24 PM

Links?

Oh - and links to any right wingers here protesting about middle aged white men having a propensity to seduce children?

Yes, I've seen the Telegraph piece before. It's another piece that tries to put the blame on Islam.

M the GM you can (or at least you should) do better than that. On the one hand - the media (and some here) said "Ah, it's part of the Muslim culture" - but on the other(s) no-one said "It's about middle aged white men".

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:55 PM

The Guardian article was an impressive, thoughtful, balanced and measured rebuttal of everything that Keith and the other received-wisdom racists in "that big thread" stood for. I recommend it as a good read for everyone interested in this topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 12:54 AM

If you really can't see the statistical and emotive difference between discrete offences all committed by men of a particular age-group, but with no demographic connection except that of 'overwhelming numerical majority of the population', over an unspecified period, on the one hand; and organised crime perpetrated by a colluding gang drawn from a specific demographic, on the other --

then you can't.

You - & Mr Harker - 'should be able to do better than that' right back to you, Richard.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 01:54 AM

Of course there's racism in the media. When my sister comes to stop with me, I pop out in the mornings and get the Daily Mail for her. The racist - pro rich people headlines have me spluttering with rage - I have trained myself not to look.

However Richard, I will not be joining up with any movement you initiate called 'Lets be nice to Asian paedophiles'.

In fact I can't really think of a fair way to to report such a case - if half the defendants are called Mohammed - don't you think it might just give the game away a bit..

Surely there must be parts of the Asian community more deserving of your compassion than these gangs of toe-rags.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 03:15 AM

"'Lets be nice to Asian paedophiles'."
Nor any other particular brand of paedophiles, I should hope.
The problem here is not just in dealing with the actions of these "toe rags", but in preventing these incidents being used by an equally disgusting bunch of 'toe rags' who would make it a racist thing and attempt to brand "all (please insert whatever race and gender takes your fancy)" as culturally implanted perverts'.
Jack Straw did not, as suggested elsewhere, make any such suggestion, but in fact said exactly the opposite, that there were no racial or cultural implications to be drawn from the cases he was discussing. This observation was echoed by other concerned people, including police and those working directly with the victims.
"I recommend it as a good read for everyone interested in this topic."
I second Steve Shaws suggestion wholeheartedly as an antidote to the opinions put forward by "....the other received-wisdom racists in "that big thread"."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 04:38 AM

Steve, do we need to call each other offensive names?
If Harker rebuts anything I said, SPECIFICALLY what?
I think he just knocked down a few straw men.
Jim, look again at the statements of Straw and others.
The links you asked for Richard.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2173300/Paedophile-gang-guilty-targeting-young-girls-sex-offering-drugs-money-cuddly-toy

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/five-guilty-of-preying-on-vulnerable-girls-in-derby-sex-abuse-case-7942201.html

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 05:08 AM

Does anyone know why links do not work sometimes?
Here is the DM address, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2173300/Paedophile-gang-guilty-targeting-young-girls-sex-offering-drugs-money-cuddly-toys.html
or use the links in the comment by GoldKruger
23 July 2012 9:09AM

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 05:57 AM

Thank you for the links Keith.

So when one set say "Asian Paedophiles" why don't the others say "White paedophiles"?

Disapproval should be even-handed.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,Ian Mather sans cookie
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 06:32 AM

In answer to the original question;

Yes, of course media can be racist. They aren't signed up to public sector style equality schemes and use solicitors to ensure they scrape along rather than fall below the line with regard to laws on promoting hate.

My only observation is that one or two on here naively think this could ever be addressed... I stopped buying newspapers a long time ago. I get The Independent on my iPhone on the basis of it is the only national newspaper to my knowledge you can get an app for without paying them for it. Subsidising newspapers (buying their output) has to be on the basis you appreciate what they print. I get through my work links to daily stories that are of professional interest, so don't have to scour them for that either.

In case nobody noticed, hating others is a human trait and sells papers. It is easier to hate a recognised group than to single out individuals. Repugnant, tempting to disagree with, but still, hate is easy and fulfils our hardwired evolution / survival instinct.

A bit like the usual diatribe that all capitalists / bankers / people who don't vote for socialist parties are collectively bad people. Same idea, just the has to be factored into the "us & them" rubbish I am dismayed to occasionally read here.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 06:39 AM

'hating others is a human trait@

and cats....as in 'I hate you meeces to pieces...!'

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 07:32 AM

""My only observation is that one or two on here naively think this could ever be addressed... I stopped buying newspapers a long time ago.""

Me too Ian, ever since they espoused the philosophy that "GOOD news is NOT news".

About 40 years ago!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 09:42 AM

Richard, the Derby cases were just random paedophiles, and they were not all white anyway.
If the Oldham gang had been the first and only Asian gang, perhaps they would not have been described thus.
It was the fact that it was an ongoing series of similar cases that was being highlighted.


Yes, I've seen the Telegraph piece before. It's another piece that tries to put the blame on Islam.
Are you SURE you read it?
In what way did it do that?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 09:46 AM

Guardian 9th May.
Racist media?
"A gang of nine Asian men who groomed white girls as young as 13 with drink and drugs were driven by lust and greed, a judge has said."

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 10:05 AM

I have had the pleasure of metting Keith A, I am doubtful that he is a racist.
It is good imo to question some reporting, if reporters insist on describing offenders as black muslims then they must be even handed and describe other offenders as white christian or white atheists or pinlk ceventh day adventists or yellow agnostics

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 01:15 PM

I think the media are usually pretty even handed where child abuse is concerned inasmuch as ALL child abuse cases become dramatic headline news. In fact usually pretty disgustingly so. I don't think we need to pore over the usually voluminous and gratuitous content of stories about non-Asian abusers to demonstrate that to be so.

Personally speaking, I think there's been a misattribution here, insofar as I don't believe there is any evidence whatsoever for a predilection for paedophilia within Asian or Pakistani or indeed Muslim (just to cover all bases) communities. Certainly not any morso than within White communities anyway - indeed looking at the stats, less so.

The (principally White) minors being sexually manipulated and exploited in the pimping activities of these (primarily Pakistani) gangs in Northern UK towns, were all (so far as I'm currently aware) above thirteen, in other words they were pubescent teenagers and not prepubescent young children.

These men were sexually exploiting vulnerable teenagers, they were not sexually abusing prepubescent children. Some commentators see this as an irrelevancy, an obfuscation, but I don't.

The cult of sexualising teenage girls has been with us in the West -and explicitly so- until very recently; anyone fondly remember the St. Trinian's stereotype of the 'naughty schoolgirl', or 'Please Sir'? Very popular images sexualising teenage girls from only twenty or so years ago - though they wouldn't be shown today!

Another issue is that some more traditional cultures, especially those which believe in Religiously controlling female sexuality, concealing female flesh and liberty (both sexually and otherwise) haven't yet caught on to the West's gradual acceptance of feminist ideas about women's freedom of dress and behaviour and remain stuck in the old (and also often perpetrated in the West) notion that a woman who dresses in a revealing way, is somehow "asking for it."

But just like the sexualisation of teenage girls in popular Western media, such a perception of the scantily dressed women as a "seductive Eve" in in no way exclusive to Asian culture either. Again, nothing new here.

It's time to step back from political right left divides, and start looking at the kinds of ignorance which promotes this type of abuse against women that we are currently witnessing in the North or England.

As I've intimated, I don't think these gangs necessarily exhibit attitudes about 'scantily clad' women and teenage girls, which are all that different from the UK of twenty or so years ago. I think they exhibit classist and sexist attitudes which in fact pretty much echo those of Western attitudes until more recently.

However I also think the fact that the police failed to take action until recently could be equally an example of lingering institutional sexism and classism; one wonders how many of the coppers who claim "I was afraid of the racist backlash!" quietly harboured sexist and classist sentiments about the victims?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 01:40 PM

Good post CS - I will some time or other tell you privately why I buy into some of it (or you could google "Mark Spendley" and/or "Sirisha Chhibber" (yes that is the spelling) for neither of whom I act. You would only begin to scratch the surface.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 02:21 PM

Personally speaking, I think there's been a misattribution here, insofar as I don't believe there is any evidence whatsoever for a predilection for paedophilia within Asian or Pakistani or indeed Muslim (just to cover all bases) communities. Certainly not any morso than within White communities anyway - indeed looking at the stats, less so.
I agree, but who is claiming that anyway?
Not the press, nor anyone posting here as a member.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 06:15 PM

?????

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 06:37 PM

Me too Richard ?????

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 08:45 PM

I find it somewhat amusing that Ian and Don feel that they are able to pontificate as they do about racism and the media when they both proudly claim to have boycotted newspapers for years.

"I haven't watched telly for decades, and I'm not about to start watching it now, as Coronation Street is crap!"

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 03:46 AM

???
!!!!
No-one has claimed "there is any evidence whatsoever for a predilection for paedophilia within Asian or Pakistani or indeed Muslim communities"

It is just a straw man.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 05:35 AM

It would be helpful to the cause of the debate, and the credibility of some of the contributors, if we all got out our dictionaries and got clear in our minds what "paedophile" actually means.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 06:25 AM

Strictly it refers to an orientation to pre pubescents, but is more generally applied to anyone attracted to minors.

I believe, and stated repeatedly, that the offenders we were discussing were not paedophiles but preyed on minors because they were easier meat.

There is no evidence whatsoever for a predilection for paedophilia within Asian or Pakistani or indeed Muslim communities, and no one posting as a member, nor any of the media, has ever claimed such a thing.
It was just a straw man.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 07:04 AM

""I find it somewhat amusing that Ian and Don feel that they are able to pontificate as they do about racism and the media when they both proudly claim to have boycotted newspapers for years.""

I'm so glad you are amused that we get to know exactly what the newspapers are saying by reading the posts of those who still believe what they read in 'em.

A Santa Claus is alive and we.........!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 07:07 AM

That should of course be AND Santa.......

Note to self:- Time for a new keyboard.

DT

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 08:26 AM

Do you believe what you hear on the radio? On the telly? On the internet? From your mates down the pub? The secret of gleaning accurate information is to be careful, discriminating and critical of your sources, not to diss them en masse.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 10:24 AM

Has Harker exposed media racism?
And,
The Guardian article was an impressive, thoughtful, balanced and measured rebuttal of everything that Keith
Specifically what has it rebutted of mine?
I have found nothing at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 09:01 PM

Say hello to Santa and the tooth fairy Steve, or you could try BBC News, which, though somewhat left leaning, is at least not under the thumb of corporate advertisers.

The only genuine public service broadcaster!!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 09:11 PM

You don't have to read the Daily Mail to know that its run by a big load of sods. Just the headlines give the game away.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 02:22 AM

Daily Mail was instrumental in the conviction of Stephen Lawrence's killers, which is worth acknowledging.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 05:51 AM

Yes, and we all know of loathsome people from the past who were fond of their dogs, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 06:19 AM

Oh, come on Richard. The Mail is just a newspaper. Sometimes reliable, often not; sometimes does some good [Lawrence murderers], sometimes a bit dodgy in its effects.

But it isn't exactly Der Stürmer, tha knowst! Lighten up!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 06:34 AM

The Mail is a force for evil. Perhaps not as bad as the Murdoch media because it has less power, but evil all the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 06:37 AM

"Evil", eh? Well, I should dearly love to live in a world where there were no greater "evils" than the Murdoch press & the Daily Mail!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 09:53 AM

Press Awards march 2012.
Journalist Of The Year, Joseph Harker.
Newspaper Of The Year, The Daily Mail.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 09:58 AM

Stephen's mother Doreen Lawrence:'If the Mail hadn't been publicising what was happening around Stephen and getting it out there, a lot of people wouldn't have known about the injustice around him as a young man.
'[The Mail's front page] definitely surprised me; that a newspaper was prepared to go out on a limb because at that time, even though we suspected they were guilty, there was nothing to prove that they were murderers, so to take that chance, to print that, it went show they were the guilty ones because if they weren't, they would have looked to challenge the paper over it.
'It makes a big difference to have that kind of support because you don't want to be this lone voice. To have the backing behind you does make a difference.

Stephen's father Neville Lawrence, who said that along with the intervention of Nelson Mandela, who met the Lawrence family after the murder, this newspaper's campaign was the crucial turning point in the case: 'I was in Jamaica when you ran that headline but the people who were running the campaign at the time phoned immediately to tell me what you had done.
'I was very pleased, but I admit that at first I was frightened, too, because I realised the implications. If you name people as murderers you have to be pretty sure you have the proof or you'll be in trouble.
'But the fact that the Mail – which is a very influential newspaper – went out on a limb for us showed how committed you were to the case. Not a lot of editors would have done that. Not a lot would have chanced it.

It opened the case right up, and after that the gang had nowhere to hide.'



Labour leader Ed Miliband: 'At a time when the reputation of the newspaper industry is at an all-time low, it is important to recognise when campaigning journalism makes a difference.
'That includes the honourable role the Daily Mail has played over almost two decades in helping bring the killers of Stephen Lawrence to justice.
'
Chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission Trevor Phillips: 'It is now part of history that the Daily Mail made the bold decision to run a front-page "J'accuse" pointing the finger at the five alleged killers and daring them to sue.
'It was an act of great courage by the newspaper's editor, Paul Dacre – but it was also a shrewd recognition by the most acute judge of Middle England's temperature that attitudes to race had changed profoundly.
'Dacre realised that though the origins of this tragedy lay in racial hatred, its consequences would transcend racial categories.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 11:56 AM

the daily mail supported Mosleys blackshirts during the thirties.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 12:13 PM

Were those newspapers, who reported on, and condemned, well documented examples of paedophilia within the Catholic Church, guilty of anti-Catholicism? Just asking!

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 02:36 PM

Quite true GSS.
Shame on the Daily Mail of that era.
Presumably it changed its stance by 1939.
I wonder if anyone currently involved was even alive then?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 05:42 AM

The Times today.

Police files reveal vast child protection scandal
Confidential police reports and intelligence files that reveal a hidden truth about the sale and extensive use of English children for sex are exposed today. They show that for more than a decade organised groups of men were able to groom, pimp and traffic girls across the country with

September 24 2012 12:02 AM

Authorities wrote lots of reports but seemed helpless to take real action
Adults commit sex offences against a child. Police and social services are informed. They respond immediately because they have a duty to protect the weak and vulnerable. Or so one might think. It was a different story if you lived in Rotherham, South Yorkshire, for most of the past 16 years and

September 24 2012 12:01 AM