US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?

Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 06:10 PM

There are also a very large number of blacks in the US who celebrate their Confederate heritage.

Very large number? Hardly. Name two.

A great pity the south lost.

Why is that, precisely?

second point: is it "Civil War" or "War between the States"?

Actually, at the time and up thru the re-birth of the Klan in the 1910s & 20's, it was called The War Of The Rebellion. And rightly so.

***
Footnote: Shelby Foote is a novelist, not an historian.-

Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Nancy King
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 05:41 PM

Seems to me there are lots of really good songs from that era, and it would be a shame NOT to sing them. But explaining the historical context is important.

Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 02:28 PM

(:-( P)=

Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 02:15 PM

> Isn't whatever truth there is in it true of every country?

Yup, including the U.S. - which remains saner than some I could mention.

Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 01:54 PM

Dixie is sung frequently just about everywhere in the US. I've never been shy about playing it or singing it. Like any other song, of course; there's a time and place ...

There are also a very large number of blacks in the US who celebrate their Confederate heritage. And they are vocal supporters.

I once played a festival in Louisiana and finished by concert there with a song about a young Confederate daughter who was accidentally killed by a Yankee cannon barrage. She was cared for by her black nanny. After my show was over a black man who worked at the venue came to talk to me for a while about the story. He told me a bit about his family and their experience during the war - after a few minutes I realized the ball cap he wore had a confederate battle flag embroidered on the front. I commented on it and he said, pointing to the flag, "That's my heritage! I had black ancestors and white ancestors that fought for that flag!"

The Civil War is not simply black and white, and most of us who've studied know that there are many shades, many stories and many sides. I've read the personal accounts of several slaves who picked up rifles, joined the with the Confederate infantry and killed Yankees. Some didn't question the reason why, others were simply loyal to their master's side. If we simply look today with our own judgment of the issues, and fail to understand the human side of black/white relations, they times and the way people lived and loyalties they had - we will miss so much.

Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 01:43 PM

Isn't there a civil war song about a general playing with his privates?

Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 01:40 PM

And though we focus today on the divisions, there were plenty who grew to feel comradeship with any who participated in the battling over the years.

I once met a soldier who was just back from active duty in Iraq. I working a pub gig near the army base in Killeen TX and he'd been asking for and singing along heartily with lots of warrior songs. When he asked for "The Green Fields of France," I said "Isn't that an anti war song" and he said, "Yeah, but it's still about war!"

So I was struck by a comment from Shelby Foote in the Ken Burns series, when an old southern Civil War soldier said he felt a real kinship, a true brotherhood with ALL the soldiers who fought the war, blue and grey ... and looked forward to being reunited with them in the next world.

Here's the song I wrote from those words.

Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 01:24 PM

I have yet to push this website, since it will be released to world with my next album, but it is up and operational. Here it is:

CSA Banjo.com

Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 01:22 PM

Please do sing them!! It is entirely appropriate. And yes, when there are sensitivities because of language or terms used then, as opposed to now, take the time to explain - but these songs and stories should be heard!!

As for Civil War vs War Between the States - us southerners can get riled over the term Civil War, but that is a modern aversion. If you read correspondence or hear quotes from Robert E, Lee or Stonewall Jackson or Jeb Stewart or Nathan Bedford Forrest or virtually ANY of the great southern Generals from they period, the term was Civil War.

Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 12:44 PM

awww... Lighter, that is not really a useful definition. Isn't whatever truth there is in it true of every country?

"Two nations"... ummm...that depends on what the topic of conversation is.

Yes, you CAN find a belligerent attitude from 'some' southerners on 'some' topics... and it may be different in Texas than it is in Mississippi or Georgia. And yes, there are songs that one might not sing in certain areas without disclaimer or pre-clearing from the hosts. I assume the same situation exists in other countries.

The band mentioned above sings ALL the songs...and they explain why. If you were going to perform in Georgia, you might ask if there are any local 'rules'.

Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 12:19 PM

If the U.S. is "really two nations," the division isn't geographical.

It's between the relatively sane and everybody else.

Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Elmore
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 12:09 PM

I highly recommend "The Civil War Collection" and "The Civil War Collection ll", by Jim Taylor, both available at Amazon.

Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 11:43 AM

Jon...many folks sing these songs. Mudcatter SongBob (Bob Clayton) is part of a group which does them... and if you haven't already, check out The 2nd South Carolina String Band, who do very 'authentic' versions. (There are examples of YouTube)

Many years ago, Ernie Ford had a fine LP of Civil War songs.

Now... the naval songs are not nearly as common, so well done examples would be welcome.

(Bill... who sang "The Hippies & the Beatnicks" back at you at the Cook's in Maryland several years ago.)

Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: John P
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 11:15 AM

Maybe you should ask some black people what they think of songs that glorify the Confederate States of America.

Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 06:44 AM

Yankees

Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Ged Fox
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 04:25 AM

I'm from the wrong side of the pond for this discussion, although my great-grandfather fought for the Union. However, I am puzzled as to who determines the 'common consent' that Dixie should not be sung any more.

Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 04:03 AM

Thanks to all who replied. One song in particular I'd like to sing is "The Cumberland's Crew". It includes such lines as

"An ironclad frigate down on us came bearing
High up in the air her rebel flag flew
An emblem of treason she proudly was waving
Determined to conquer the Cumberland's crew."

I'd like to hear particularly from Southerners, since I've met so (relatively) few. It seems to me that the US is really two nations, and I don't know about the tensions still existing between the two.

Jon Bartlett

Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 03:04 AM

Oh,by the way. It was just another war the in which the wealthy people sent the poor people off to fight. Just like all of them.Abe Lincoln was a Republican after all. Just like George Bush.War criminals and murderers. They murdered their own people.

(:-( P)=

Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 02:41 AM

Nobody has referred to The Star Spangled Banner.        Only one verse ever gets sung. There are four of them. And the third one refers to slaves and hirelings.Even our sacred national anthem is politically incorrect. I think it should be replaced with This Land Is Your Land. But the banks foreclosed on our lands. Maybe Helter Skelter?

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Joe_F
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 08:10 PM

I think "Marching through Georgia" is a good deal worse than rude; it is *mean*. I wouldn't sing it anywhere, except as documentation.

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 07:07 PM

I know the South purdy good... Born here, educated here and other than living in Wes Ginny with a bunch of Confederate flaggers for 20 years, have lived here all my life... No, it ain't all about bigots... But the South has more than their fair share...

Now back to music...

Hope ya'll found "Drummer Boy"... The band is outta Georgia and it's one fine song...

B~

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: GUEST,Gerry (channelling Tom Lehrer)
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 07:03 PM

There are innocuous folk songs/But we just treat 'em with scorn/The folks who sing 'em got no social conscience/Why, they don't even care if Jimmy crack corn.

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 06:16 PM

There is great superiority and condescension coming from the north to the south. ANd there is not common consensus that Dixie should not be sung or even played as an instrumental. That was a sacred song to many people, an anthem, which unfortunatley made others very uncomfortable, because of slavery, cotton references etc. If you read at least the verses I am familiar with..although no one would say "Injun batter" these days, you would probably say what in the world is the problem...makes you fat or a little fatter, look away, look away, look away Dixieland. I wish I was in Dixie, hooray, hooray..it is a song of people who loved their country, or part of the country, and it is very sad when a beloved song is killed. But sometimes it has to happen. But it should happen respectfully, and it didn't. mg

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 05:42 PM

"The recent unpleasantness" is not that recent, of course, but the phrase, and similar, are still used among those who consider themselves to be Southerners. The idea that, though sentiments and situations may be well known, for the sake of politeness, it isn't desirable to make them the center of every interaction.

There is a rather unfortunate tendency for certain people who do not know the South to view it as some sort of repository for bigots, illiterates, and homicidal hillbillies.

It is often overlooked that the sentiments for secession were far from universal in the antebellum South, and that the strongest feelings against slavery came from those who saw it firsthand.

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 04:53 PM

There's an excellent song that came out by the band "Hearts Field" and written by Fred Dobbs entitled "Drummer Boy"... If you can find this song you'll love it... I've performed it over the years but the best one was just me on guitar with a drummer playing just a snare....

B~

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 04:31 PM

Know your audience.

No one except the most deeply neurotic of the deep South should be offended by many Yankee songs, because by general consent they're now considered "American."

But know your audience.

Minstrel songs sung in minstrel dialect are out of bounds for reasons of taste (call it "PC" if you wish). African Americans and many others find it weird and creepy, and maybe scary and insulting for white people to sing even "Jimmy Crack Corn" in minstrel or even "Black English" dialect. Normal English will work for songs without a racial component.

"Dixie" by common consent is kind of off limits, though you might get away with the melody alone. The "Battle Hymn of the Republic" is probably too pompous, pretentious, and apocalyptic to be sung for fun. (Check out *those* lyrics! Lucky that few people took that stuff 100% seriously.)

The sentimental stuff (like "Lorena" and "Aura Leigh" and "The Vacant Chair") is nonpartisan and always acceptable.

"The War of Northern Aggression" is a consciously tendentious name. Southerners supposedly prefer "War between the States" to "Civil War," but I don't know that anybody's ever monitored their actual usage, and frankly I haven't it heard it in conversation nearly as often as I've read it in books.

"I'm a Good old Rebel" was written as satire, but many will take it at face value unless you explain what's up with it.

Any non-minstrel song without any obvious politics in it is fine.

Never sing the "n-word" or the corresponding "d-word," unless it's clearly understood to be part of an educational, historical performance, preferably on a college campus.

Just speaking from my experience. Carry on.

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 03:34 PM

"The Recent Unpleasantness" ? I've never heard it referred to as such. Sounds much more like a Britishism to me.

From the Digitrad:

"note: as sung by The Highgraders, San Francisco, early 60s -
the traditional chorus, which makes no sense, is "Jimmie Crack
Corn"; I prefer "Gimmie crack'd corn" - whiskey] ES
Could be. Also might not be. Logic often leads to fakelore. RG
DT #669"

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Bert
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 03:25 PM

It depends on the company. For example one wouldn't sing "Marching through Georgia" at any venue in The South; that would be be plain rude.

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 03:09 PM

Maryland's State song, "Maryland, My Maryland" was written at the outset of "The Unpleasantness", and expresses sentiments such as "Huzza! She spurns the Northern scum!", and says of our Beloved Father Abraham "The despot's heel is on thy shore, Maryland!".

There is a certain amount of discomfort about this, since, despite our dubious history, we are amongst the Bluest of the Blue States, but we stick with it because it is one of the few historical state songs that anyone actually likes, and all the new lyrics people have written for it are lame.

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Elmore
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 01:34 PM

The late Jim Taylor, Sheila Kay Adams' husband used to specialize in songs of the American civil war. Sparky and Rhonda Rucker do them as well. There was a 2 hour presentation of civil war songs at the Old Songs festival this year. Seems perfectly acceptable to me.

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 01:27 PM

If they are respectful and non-inflammatory we should all sing them. Some need a bit of tweaking. They are songs that meant to much to people who died tragic deaths for a tragic cause. Most did not own slaves..they were too poor themselves..it is very sad that people can't sing Dixie any more..it is a song about pancakes for heavens' sake...it is not meant to offend anyone..although the land of cotton is obviously hard to swallow...

So don't sing Dixie. Look at the words to the Bonny Blue Flag...

Many are universal..tenting tonight...tramp tramp tramp the boys are marching..about the pOWs...battle hymn of the republic...

They are beautiful songs. I would sing songs from both sides. I would call it the Civil War. I would not assume that everyone on the Southern Side was inhuman or wishing to perpetuate slavery..most were uneducated hill people who would have profited from the abolition of slavery as they would have been more needed in the job market.

No need to get on any high horses. Sing the beautiful songs, amend slightly the ones that could be offensive and explain why.

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 01:21 PM

400,000 - 800,000 were killed in that civil war - call it what you will - sounds like fucking slaughter to me! A great pity the south lost.

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 12:24 PM

Last time I looked, some southerners were still calling it "The Recent Unpleasantness"

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 07:15 AM

Jon, to actually answer your question (about what name to use), you can't go wrong with "The American Civil War" or even "The War Between the States".

"War of Northern Aggression" is usually used by Southerners or Southern sympathizers still fighting it.

There are other names, too, with social and political overtones.

I've never heard any objections to any of the songs, but I've always lived in either the Upper Midwest or New England (where tempers run higher about the War of 1812). Nuances might be better explained by some of our members from the FSGW, especially those who have recorded CDs of Civil War songs. (American Civil War or just plain Civil War is by far the most common name -- at least from the Dakotas to Maine and as far south as Pennsylvania which covers my experience from school to adulthood.)

Linn

Linn

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 07:15 AM

Jon, I don't think you'd have a problem doing civil war songs in the states. My brother and his son do some of the re-enactments and they'd fit right in with the historic interest and context.

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: matt milton
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 06:45 AM

As with any good folk song, there are plenty of subtleties and ambiguities. If you wanted to, you could make a case for the song even suggesting that the master's death was in fact ENGINEERED by the servant.

The first verse describes a bunch of menial stuff the slave had to do when he was a kid, stuff the master could perfectly well do himself. Basically, the child has to all but wipe his master's arse. Not very dignified.:


When I was young I used to wait
On master and hand him his plate
Pass him the bottle when he got dry
And brush away the blue-tail fly

In the second verse, we see how the master is in fact dependant on the slave for his safety. A vulnerability is revealed, and revealed rather coyly in the faux-genteel "the pony being rather shy" line:

When he would ride in the afternoon
I'd follow him with my hickory broom
The pony being rather shy
When bitten by the blue-tail fly

Note the "chanced" in the third verse: the slave's testimony is very careful to emphasise contingency in his account (he'd be executed if there was any suggestion of negligence on his part, let alone - perish the thought - actively having engineered his master's death)

One day he rode around the farm
Flies so numerous that they did swarm
One chanced to bite him on the thigh
The devil take the blue-tail fly


Note "the jury wondered why" and the reported "the verdict was". Again, a reminder that there's real jeopardy here. But also that, if the jury wondered why, so might an attentive listener to the song:

Well the pony jumped, he start, he pitch
He threw my master in the ditch
He died and the jury wondered why
The verdict was the blue-tail fly

Chorus

Last verse: that master has literally been knocked down off his high horse to lying "beneath" the tree. Bit of irony there, considering how the slave used to water him when he was dry in the first verse; now that won't be a problem. The word lie crops up twice in that verse. (One might ponder the words "I'm forced to lie" here!).

The epitaph is another kind of testimony (a verdict set in stone): it was definitely the blue-tailed fly's fault. No question. Oh yes, definitely the blue-tailed fly. Just look at the epitaph. Just hear the jury's verdict. Nobody could possibly ever suggest that it was anything other than that pesky blue-tailed fly being responsible for the death of that guy. Oh no.

Not for nothing does fly rhyme with sly...

Now he lies beneath the 'simmon tree
His epitaph is there to see
Beneath this stone I'm forced to lie
The victim of the blue-tail fly

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: matt milton
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 06:33 AM

He delights when I sing it.

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 06:22 AM

No, Matt ~ he doesn't delight, but regrets him: perhaps because he was a tolerable master, and his death would have meant the break up of the estate and his thus becoming liable to being sold to another master who might not be so reasonable?

There are so many attitudes to the American Civil War [as it is generally known over here in my experience] - from The Blue & The Gray to The Red Badge Of Courage to D.W. Griffith's unspeakably loathsome The Birth Of A Nation, a 'revered landmark of early cinema' which actually relates how the KKK saved the South when the Nigras were getting uppity after the North's victory! - that it's hard, especially to ousiders like us, to judge what attitudes to the conflict and its aftermath would be appropriate at this time of day. But, as to singing songs, that must surely depend on the song, its attitude, and several other such variables and imponderables?

~M~

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: matt milton
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 06:16 AM

Another example: I really love the lyrics in a lot of Orange songs, as found in corners of the repertoires of Len Graham, Paddy Tunney and in Sam Henry's Songs of the People book.

Those songs are often chock full of bizarre references to Templars, and arcane rites. (There are northern irish Masonic songs that have a similarly occult pomp to them.)

It's one thing for Len Graham to sing them. But for me they've got too much recent-history baggage for an Englishman to sing them. I'd have to ask myself, 'would I sing this in an Irish folk club?', and the answer's no. And, as far as I'm concerned, if you wouldn't sing it there, then it's disingenuous/cowardly to sing it anywhere else.

In the case of US Civil War songs, I imagine you'd be OK, that these days, singing them would only be contentious or divisive in very particular corners of the southern US. But I really wouldn't know, I leave that to the much better informed US residents on here...

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: matt milton
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 06:10 AM

As always, it depends what the song is! You can't simply say "you should/shouldn't sing song X because it's "about" this or that".

I recently learned "The Kaiser" by Pink Anderson. It is sung from the (ironic) point of view of Kaiser Wilhelm II. It contains the immortal line "We conquered little Belgium/and France will soon be ours". It has a fair bit of jingoistic flag-waving about Uncle Sam's boys. It is distinctly un-PC.

Why do I like it? Ultimately, I reckon, cos it's ridiculous: it boils down global warfare and killing on a massive scale into a puerile scrap between "our boys" and "their boys" in a playground. There's a kernel of truth there. Pink Anderson sings it with just the right amount of deadpan and humour.

Of course, you certainly couldn't sing it if it were about, say, the Bosnian conflict, if it concerned Ratko Mladic for instance. (Unless you were trying to make some kind of confrontational art statement, I suppose.) That's the thing about history. Ultimately, the passage of time turns today's mass murderers and serial killers into boogiemen and folklore.

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: matt milton
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 06:00 AM

"It seems like everyone wants to censor the past . But Jimmy can go crack some corn."

Well that's an interesting example to pick, cos "Jimmy Crack Corn" would certainly pass muster from the PC brigade: it's arguably a song in which a slave/servant delights in the death of his master.

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 05:02 AM

Go ahead and sing what you like - if someone takes offence then they must wrestle with their own demons.

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: IanC
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 05:01 AM

But not the songs, on the whole.

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 04:51 AM

Oh, the legacy of Cromwell - and the atrocities on both sides - can still cause a fair amount of dissension.

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: IanC
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 03:56 AM

Perhaps need to be a bit clearer ... in the UK, we think "Civil War" is something which happened in the 17th Century. There are still a lot of songs, but they don't cause much concern these days.

:-)

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 03:09 AM

Actually, it was the War of Northern Aggression. And you can sing any song you like. I'm a big fan of Blackface Minstrelsy. I love Mr.Bones and Mr.Tambo and Mr.Interlocutor.
It seems like everyone wants to censor the past . But Jimmy can go crack some corn.
Because I don't care.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 02:52 AM

Sorry, second point: is it "Civil War" or "War between the States"?

Jon Bartlett

Subject: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 02:51 AM

Guidance please for a Canuck with several naval Civil War songs in his head: is it civil to sing them or do backs still go up? Maybe it's OK for US singers, but not for foreigners? I don't sing them in Canada because they're not specially relevant, but with all these Civil War things happening in the US, I'd like to share them - but not if it makes folks uneasy/unhappy.

Jon Bartlett