alf edwards concertina accompaniments

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: GUEST,Terry Murphy
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 05:35 PM

Hello! I am looking for a copy of Alf Edwards Concertina Book. Found one on line for $710.00 not that wealthy yet! My e-mail [e-mail] THANK YOU! Terry Murphy

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 15 - 12:58 PM

Song accompaniment on concertina was mainly used in the music halls, for example percy amd mary honri in1936, take that stanron
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/percy-and-mary-honri

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: Brian Peters
Date: 03 Mar 15 - 11:17 AM

Dan Worrall's article includes at least one reference to hymns being accompanied, and also (p23) a comic song. On p36 he presents a table of the different musical uses of concertinas, that includes a number of instances of song accompaniments.

I suspect you're right, Stanron, that the concertina wasn't commonly used to accompany the kind of songs Cecil Sharp would have called 'folk'. Peter Kennedy's book 'Folksongs of Britain and Ireland' includes a photo of one William Rew holding an anglo, but all the evidence seems to be that he used it for playing dance music.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 15 - 09:17 AM

sorry, the song was called the spaniard that blighted my life.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 15 - 09:00 AM

yes, i had access to the original scores, and yes the original music was also recorded by Nigel Pickles on the original instruments on a vinyl lp called the new mexborough concertina prize band.on plant life
we did a concert in wath on dearne town hall, at which a few of the surviving members of the original band were present, they complimented us on our performance.
one of the songs that the original band did was the music hall type song, it has a title something like the spaniard that stole my true love away.
in my opinion the NMECQ recording is superior to the new mxborough prize band recording which was a multi track of nigel pickles, because of the interaction between the musicians., which is obviously impossible to recreate with multi tracking

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 05:54 PM

Thanks GSS. I found this

https://soundcloud.com/ica-concertina-recordings/the-new-mexborough-english

which I guess is your 1980s recreation. Are there any recordings of the original band? And did you have access to the original scores?

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 05:00 PM

stanron, the new mexborough concertina band had arrangements of folk songs.
they also employed one of the band to sing songs on occasions whilst they accompanied him with harmony on their concertinas, this was in the 1930s.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 04:49 PM

I've got as far as page 8 out of the 20 in the first part of the Worral artcle where he goes through accounts of the concertina being used at sea. So far there are no instances of a singer accompanying him or herself on concertina but there's plenty yet to read.

I'd like to point out that my adductions in my previous posting were preceded by the word 'If'. I'm not trying to make or prove any particular theory, I was curious as to whether anyone could link to examples of pre 1950s folk recordings where a singer also played concertina at the same time as singing. I would like to hear what harmonies, if any, were used.

There may well be recordings of Music Hall performers doing this but that raises the old question of 'is it folk?'. I accompany myself on guitar when singing but I don't really think of myself as a 'folk' singer and certainly not traditional but I am interested in how stuff used to be done.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 02:16 PM

Belated apologies for my error of 29 Aug 12 0942 -- have only just noticed that I attribd singing of The Water Is Wide in 'The Bounty' to Robin Dransfield, when it was of course Barry!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 01:29 PM

Thanks Brian. I really appreciate that

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: Brian Peters
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 01:07 PM

Stanron, did you note MGM Lion's quote from Dan Worrall about ten posts down the thread (he was contradicting me, as it happens!):
"The concertina was also frequently used to accompany singing. Such singing was most typically done during evening slack time, and involved both nautical songs as well as any popular songs of the day".

Walter Pardon sang and played melodeon, but not at the same time. Plenty of people who sing and play box find it confusing and difficult to do both together, but quite apart from that, our 'folk' singing tradition seems to have been predominantly unaccompanied, so perhaps it was simply the 'done thing'

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 01:07 PM

I remember in early childhood, about 1936-7 when I would be 4-5, seeing a production of Barrie's children's play 'Peter Pan'. One of the pirates, Starkie or Smee, sang a song, interpolated I think rather than part of the original script which I have just checked on. But the point is, I distinctly remember his singing to his own concertina accompaniment -- I remember my mother telling me that the instrument was called a concertina — which suggests to me that the use of self-accompaniment by singing sailors on the concertina was something conventionally expected by the director of this production, and his target audience, well before the time of "Bert & the revivalists", adduced in last post, or of Bert's using of Alf Edwards for accompaniment on his records.

Can anyone adduce any other examples?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 12:45 PM

music hall singers, did, pre the uk folk revival, and some music hall songs are accepted by the folk revival as folk repertoire.
but you could argue the same about the bouzouki, traditions evolve and change, the concertina was invented in 1840s, so what.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 12:06 PM

Interesting thread.

I was about halfway through reading it when I remembered I had a CD of William Kimber. Now I know he played an Anglo not English but this isn't going off the subject of Alf Edward's concertina accompaniments, honest.

William Kimber was a very strong concertina player but I had forgotten that he was also a fine singer. My point is that he sang unaccompanied. His repertoire was mainly tunes but when he sang he did not accompany himself with the concerina. When he played tunes he included harmony lines and some chords so he was quite capable of accompaniment but chose not to do it when singing.

So the question is, was this a personal foible or was it the 'common practice'? If it was the latter then the Bob Thompson point made in MGM.Lion's second posting can still be valid. The concertina was used for playing tunes and dancing but not for accompanying singers. And the 'tradition' of playing concertina whilst singing is, in fact, an invention of Bert Lloyd and the revivalists.

Not that I think there is anything wrong with the way we now sing and play at the same time but can anyone think of any pre revival singers who played concertina and sang at the same time?

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 07:03 AM

well here is a further draft or refinement for laid clods upon his head, a add c [above], then c with f,then play dcg all with an f below, now the g an the f are discordant but work because you only touch for a second and then resolve to aea, for the word head.
here it is, please bear in mind i have only just wrked it out so its a bit tentative
http://youtu.be/mUFPKNWgFX8

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 06:17 AM

this song has two musical phrases. so that is what i would do. the first second and fourth lines. so play melody with a d note underneath for the words there were three, the words men come. is a with d above. out of the,play melody notes f nat g a, with a d under, the word west is a and d. as is the word their, the word fortune is gdg, "for to" is dc without harmony, "try" is ada.
that leaves us with one musical phrase to sort, ,the melody is d f g a c dddd, words they ploughed they sowed they harowed him in, then melody a c c d c g a words threw clods upon his head.
i would do this d add an f take the f off add g with d, then play an a then to the a add the high c melody note, now for the four d s play d with ad under, now the last bit play a add c take a off play c with f, then play dc g without harmony, and then play aea, for the word head.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 05:33 AM

this is really difficult to explain, on the word fortune melody g f natural, with a hrmony d under, for to is dc with no harmony.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 05:27 AM

Brian is spot on, the important point is to leave the third note[ the one that denotes it is major or minor out of the chord], except probably [imo]for the g major and f major chords.if you are playing it in the key of d modal, the melody starts aggfd, my inclination would be to play d under the first four notes then a low a under the d and then an a under the next f, a d under the next g, then f natural under the d and g and then on the word west play ada, so you are playing melody and two note simple first and fifth under the whole of the first musical phrase. on the words fortune, i would play g with a lower dg, on the words for to try , i would play just the melody notes d c without harmony, and on the word try, play low a d and a.
i have just tried it on the english and that in my opinion is more suitable, just my opinion.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: Brian Peters
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 01:09 PM

Donald, it would be quite a task to transcribe what Alf plays of 'All For me Grog', because it's pretty complicated and would be quite hard to work out just by ear. The intro is played as single-note melody, then for the verses it's a mixture of chords, melody + chords, and harmony lines. He throws some higher-pitched chords into the second chorus as well. A nice example of his accompaniment at its best, IMO.

If you're a relative beginner, I'd suggest working out a few basic chords on your instrument and using those to accompany your singing with rhythmic strikes on the beat. Lloyd sings 'Grog' in F and the chord sequence is something like:

[F] All for me grog, me [Bb] jolly, jolly [F] grog
[F] All for me beer and to- [C] -bacco
[C] For we've [F] spent all our tin on the [Bb] lasses drinking [F] gin
And across the Western [C] ocean we must wan- [F] -der.

Personally I don't enjoy Alf's accompaniment to 'John Barleycorn' nearly as much. He plays nothing but D minor chords (stressing the first three beats of each bar) on lines 1,2 and 4 of each verse, which sounds quite dull and discordant to my ears. He does something more interesting and fluid on line 3, though.

If it were me I'd probably chord it something like this:

There [G] was three [Dm] men came out of the West, their [G] fortunes for to [Dm] try
And [G] these three [Dm] men made a solemn vow John [G] Barleycorn should [Dm] die
They [F] ploughed, they [Am] sowed, they [Dm] harrowed him in, throwed [F] clods u- [G] -pon his [Am] head
And [G] these three [Dm] men made a solemn vow John [G] Barleycorn was [Dm] dead.

Actually I'd probably not use minor chords at all, but use simple 1+5 chords throughout.

Hope that's helpful.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 12:03 PM

ok the tune is modal, i play this song in sawmill tuning[ gdgcd] on the banjo, my approach would on the english concertina would be to do it in a flat, which suits my voice, i would play the tune against an e flat drone, very different from alfs approach. why? because i do not think straightforward chords work. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: GUEST,donald
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 08:38 AM

It's this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzkkwpq7Ehk

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 08:27 AM

which tune for john barleycorn does he use.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: GUEST,donald
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 04:37 AM

I'm a relative beginner and really like the Alf Edwards accompaniment.Would anyone be kind enough to transpose the accompaniment on 'All for me grog' or 'John Barleycorn'? It would be a great help

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 09:37 AM

There's no substitute for me for sitting down with a more advanced instrumentalist, be it 5-string banjo or Anglo concertina, and having her/him demonstrate what can be done. I then have to decide whether I want to learn what was demonstrated, and when to use it.

At the age of 70, I'm still not ready to take a formal class in music theory and practice. But I highly recommend that the young do that for years, before they compete for attention on the stage.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 08:21 AM

correction, the 5 string banjo, comes into the equation as well, the appalachian styles, use tunings such as cgcd dgcd, which are useful for modal tunes, has a similiar stus to dagad cgcgcd on guitar, so it could be argued that uk folk music has been influenced by morocco plus america

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 05:09 AM

English trad music was pushed in a different direction by davy graham who influenced martiN carthy, GRAHAM went to morooco and heard the oud and used the sound to produce a different tuning dadgad, which has led on to cgcgda dadeae, and others, .
it is of course impossible to get symapthetic ringning on a concertina, but some ideas chordal can be transferred to concertina, example using a dyad a fifth apart with the third note sharpened, using modal chords with a 7, using suspensions[of intervals of a second] but just briefly touching the discord[for maybe a half beat etc]. all of this stems or its popularisation on the uk folk scene as a result of davy graham visiting morocco.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: Brian Peters
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 04:41 AM

"there's no value in pushing any form of "world music" closer and closer to the jazz-pop mainstream, nor is there any need to do so."

On the specific issue of concertina song accompaniment, I was thinking about the evolution of the style by such English players of the English system as Lou Killen, Tony Rose, Steve Turner, Dick Miles, Keith Kendrick and - most recently and spectacularly - Rob Harbron. There's been a gradual loosening, sophistication and enrichment of the style since the days of Alf E., without (to my ears at least) sailing too close to the wilder shores of jazz. Having a foot in the melodeon camp as well, I've certainly noticed a pronounced trend towards jazz chording and syncopation amongst the new generation of players of that instrument (which seems to appeal to younger musicians more than the conertina), which some people enjoy and others don't.

I think it would be hard to find any form of 'world music' that hasn't been pushed closer to the mainstream in recent years, and there have been both gains and losses there. There will (at least as far as the near future is concerned) always be sporadic trends to 'get back to the old style' alongside the dizzying levels of experimentation and fusion, but the world is changing and shrinking so rapidly that none of us can predict what happens from here.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 06:06 PM

Quite right, Lighter. I find playing a single note throughout a song is invariably all the accompaniment it needs. BUT – it must be the right note.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 03:55 PM

> more adventurous harmony, and a looser approach to rhythm in terms of working around the beat...

Neither of which, in principle, is necessarily an improvement or a good fit for the material.

My view is that there's no value (except in attracting a bigger paying audience) in pushing any form of "world music" closer and closer to the jazz-pop mainstream, nor is there any need to do so.

Of course, highly practiced musicians like to challenge themselves, and what will be will be.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: Brian Peters
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 03:35 PM

Re "a bit stiff", let me stress that I do enjoy Alf Edwards' accompaniments, but the players who came later pushed their accompaniments a bit further both in terms of more adventurous harmony, and a looser approach to rhythm in terms of working around the beat, and so on. But as a pioneer Alf E. did some great stuff and was no doubt highly influential.

Michael, I stand corrected regarding Dan Worral's findings on song accompaniment - must read that stuff again.

"So where does John Roberts score in terms of Anglo playing technique? I've been very impressed watching him play close up."

So have, I, Charley. Top player - he's very modest about it, though.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 12:43 PM

i do not know , but if you like his playing should it matter?

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 10:37 AM

Hate to see what you folks post when you're in your crotchety 90s.

So where does John Roberts score in terms of Anglo playing technique? I've been very impressed watching him play close up.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 07:43 AM

Dick - apologies also for using the rough edge of my tongue with you (if you'll pardon the expression). I was also suffering - with back pain and leg cramps - on Friday, and had to miss what was probably a good day at Stowmarket on Saturday with Al and other friends.

I'm still not having your baby, though...

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 06:57 AM

my apologies to al, for being tetchy, i was in very bad pain with gout.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 03:22 PM

mary humphreys, says in a review of Ten thousand miles away," I had forgotten how much I admired Alf whose English concetina accompanied Bert on many of his songs.
I agree with those words.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 09:52 AM

The concertina seems folkish because it's so rarely heard outside of street-corner Salvation Army bands. And even they are folkier than any concert performance.

The concertina's easy portability also suggests the sort of thing a carefree shepherd, gypsy, soldier, or sailor might carry with him, at least in a Victorian novel.

Steve, I call the Dubliners' arrangements "elaborate" only for want of a larger vocabulary. "Flashy" might work, but it sounds a bit dismissive. The quality of their playing really stood out in the '60s.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 07:19 AM

absolutely, michael, i fond some songs are suited by guitar or banjo and other by concertina, and some by both and what decide to i use then, is dependent on my mood at the time.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 06:52 AM

I don't think in fact that the non-folkie public gives a flying one any way you look at it as to which instruments we prefer to use as accompnmt. Some songs I prefer one; some another; a few I like to be flexible ~ sometimes feel like using guitar or autoharp; or banjo or concertina.... or or or...

~M~

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 06:37 AM

oh and by the way , I like Alans compilation cd and I would recommend people to buy it along with Brian Peters EXCELLENT CONCERTINA CD, but Alans mentioning it here is irrelevant because it does not contain any song accompaniments by Alf Edwards, if it had I would have had no objection to Alan mentioning it, this is after all a discussion about Alfs English concertina accompaniments.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 06:33 AM

"The interesting issue is that among the non folkie public the concertina seems to be perceived as the most traditional of instrument. the reason for this remains unclear to me".
yes, its mystifying, considering its a mid victorian instrument, it never fails to amuse me., However 165 years is hardly modern,when i think of modern instruments i think of synthesisers, hammond organs and electric guitars.
John, I disagree about your statement about allowing the concertina to dominate, in fact that is a statement I would use for quite a few guitarists, so we will have to agree to disagree.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: johncharles
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 06:19 AM

MtheGm,
i must look that thread up.
I think the point more precisely is that the guitar and more importantly its precusors have a much longer history than the concertina,which is essentially a modern invention.
"Scottish traditional music has been played on the guitar for well over two hundred years, at least that is, since the publication in Edinburgh of Robert Bremner's Instructions for the Guitar of 1758."
The interesting issue is that among the non folkie public the concertina seems to be perceived as the most traditional of instrument. the reason for this remains unclear to me.
john

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 05:56 AM

We had a long thread a few years ago on the guitar as a folk-accompt instrument. No instrument is more 'traditional' than any other ~~ tho the fiddle has a strong claim perhaps?: depends much on context, availability, local usage &c.

~M~

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: johncharles
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 04:11 AM

Edwards was playing concertina just over 100 years after its invention, which is prety much infancy in terms of developing playing of an instrument.The fact that he played for Lloyd and Maccoll suggest he was recognised as a good player of his time.
I see many good tune players but few players who have mastered song accompaniment, too often allowing the concertina to dominate.
The concertinas perceived link to folk song is a modern invention, the real traditional instrument is the guitar which has a long and noble history.
john
p.s. the criticism of Alan day was unfounded.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 03:24 AM

Don't knock The Dubliners Steve, Barney McKenna and John Sheehan, two of Irelands finest musicians and some of their arrangements were quite elaborate.

Dave H

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 07:06 PM

Will, take your attempted point scoring elsewhere and let those of us who wish to discuss Alfs accompaniments,get on with the discussion.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 07:02 PM

"Maybe because it was in the distant past, before the revival had evolved more elaborate (but not always superior) accompaniments, but I found nothing "thin" or disappointing about Edwards's work. Quite the contrary. It backed up the singing with what seemed to me to be the perfect combination of drama, sensitivity, and self-effacing simplicity. That's what gave it its "folk" quality: it didn't seem showy or sophisticated. Edwards supported the singing rather than share the spotlight with it."
I Agree absolutely, it is not thin at all....my whole point about his chordal style and.. it is far from basic

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 04:57 PM

On second thoughts I never thought I would ever see the words 'Dubliners' and 'elaborate' in the same sentence.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 04:55 PM

Spot on, Jon.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 04:52 PM

The first English folksong LPs I heard were Lloyd & MacColl's sea song albums acc. by Edwards.

I'd never heard the concertina before except in the usual movie snippets (and I can't even identify those except, of course, in Moby Dick).

Maybe because it was in the distant past, before the revival had evolved more elaborate (but not always superior) accompaniments, but I found nothing "thin" or disappointing about Edwards's work. Quite the contrary. It backed up the singing with what seemed to me to be the perfect combination of drama, sensitivity, and self-effacing simplicity. That's what gave it its "folk" quality: it didn't seem showy or sophisticated. Edwards supported the singing rather than share the spotlight with it.

Edwards's playing may seem ho-hum to listeners who came to the music after first hearing the more elaborate (and often more rhythmic) arrangements of say, the Dubliners or the Ian Campbell Folk Group, but his chosen style of expression was rather different.

Subject: RE: alf edwards concertina accompaniments
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 04:18 PM

I have read his post properly.

No you haven't. That's quite obvious from your subsequent replies.