Teaching the A chord (guitar)

Subject: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Cool Beans
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 12:10 PM

I'm teaching my (adult) daughter how to play the guitar and it's time she graduated to another key. I play the one-finger A chord, with my index finger holding down all three strings and avoiding the high E. That can be painful to a beginner. Do all you Mudcat guitarists play the A chord that way?

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 12:15 PM

I think that the 3 finger version is used by most beginners: index (D string), middle (G string) and ring (B string)

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 12:15 PM

no, i use 3 fingers,index on 4 middle on 3, ring on 2

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 12:38 PM

Crossover, index on G, middle on D, ring on B.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: GUEST,alex s no cookie
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 12:47 PM

Middle 4, Ring 3, Pinkie 2

Good for:
Big fingers and/or narrow fretboards
and
Strengthens the pinkie for general usage

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 12:54 PM

A does tend to be a painful chord in the base position to start with, especially for some hands.

The least painful one to use instead is maybe with the index finger on the B string at the fith fret, the middle finger on the G string at the sixth fret, and the index finger on the D string at the seventh fret. Sounds complicated, but it's dead easy.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: GUEST,wyrdolafr
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 01:25 PM

I think the best way is to teach her to fret an Amajor with three fingers, but with both '1st on D, 2nd on G, 3rd on B' and 2nd on D, 3rd on G, 4th on B' as moving around those open positions around the nut, different versions of the chord work a little easier depending on the chord you're either moving from or moving to.

The same goes for a lot of those supposedly 'easy' open chords like Emajor. Fretting with 1st, 2nd and 3rd fingers makes a lot sense playing things like Edom7, Esus &c, but its a bit clumsy when leading up to various barre chords &c.

It's one of those things where she won't thank you for it right now, but in the long run, she'll be glad she didn't get stuck with a 'definitive' but limiting way.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 01:26 PM

Political finger on the D and G strings, and the finger between the political finger and pinky on the B string, both at the second fret.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Midchuck
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 02:47 PM

I prefer last three fingers (middle, ring, pinkie) on the three strings, for two reasons:

I have fat fingers, and they fit better than the first three.

If the index finger is free, you can move the whole business up, and fret the high e two frets down with the index finger, and get a four-string Bb or B or C or C# or D or...

P.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 02:54 PM

I fret the 4th and 3rd strings with my first finger and the second finger fretting the 2nd string. All, of course, on the second fret.

Other fingerings, of course, for further up the fingerboard.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 03:42 PM

Though I know and use, a lot of different fingerings for an "A" chord, I tend to play out of the closed position barred A on the fifth fret--depending on what I'm playing.   but what I use doesn't have much to do with what I'd teach a beginner to do.

The thing is, you have to teach how to move from one chord to another in a way that they can add to and develop to suit whatever style of music they want to play. Needless to say, this is going to be really different--

For rock and blues, I used to teach that one finger thing you do, and, to make it easier, I'd actually have them start out holding the E note on the second fret D string down all the way, and letting the finger damp the rest of the strings. Then I'd teach them to squeeze and get the rest of the notes in, whenever they could manage it.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Mr Happy
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 03:55 AM

Guess I'm outnumbered, but I've always used index fingerpad to cover all 3 strings for A & don't find it at all limiting, in fact I've more spare fingers left over to play ornamentations etc

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 04:01 AM

You could, of course, also try this:

007650

Easy to fret and with an interesting ring to it...

As far as any chord fingering is concerned, you have to consider the place of the chord in relation to those around it - and how you make the change. For root A, the previous and following chords may indicate a slight change in fingering from one A to the next occurrence of A.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: JohnDun
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 04:30 AM

I'm with Sandy on this one, the index finger on the G string.

When playing in the key of A, I keep my index finger on the G string all the time just sliding it about between the 1st and 2nd frets for the A, D & E chords, and taking it off for the A7.

It also feels easier and more relaxing for me to keep my middle finger 'above' my index finger as in the E, Em, E7, F, G, G7, Am, B7, C, C7, Dm, & D7 chords. - (lights blue touchpaper and runs for cover)

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: GUEST,wyrdolafr
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 05:20 AM

Will, I agree. What's leading up to the chord or how you're going to come out of that chord is pretty important, even in open chords down by the nut. When you're first starting playing the guitar and fretting anything at all is a conscious effort, getting the right fingering early on makes those difficult first changes a lot easier.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Stanron
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 06:17 AM

A lot depends on the student and the guitar. A child learning on a classical guitar has lots of space to use three fingers. An adult on a narrow necked steel string may find that three fingers don't fit.

When I started learning I found it much easier to hold the fourth and third strings with one finger and the second string with the next. I had a similar two finger version of the E chord.

50 years later I still use those shapes, although I have learned some more since then.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Bernard
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 06:57 AM

I've always taught students to first play E with the index finger on 3rd string, first fret, middle finger on 5th string second fret and ring finger on 4th string second fret.

Then I tell them not to move the index finger (guitarist's motto 'never lift a finger unless you have to'), move the middle and ring fingers across to 4th and 3rd strings respectively, and put the 'pinky' on the 2nd string, second fret, giving the A chord.

It also means the slightly tricky B7 chord is easier to get to - and I use the 12-bar blues as an ideal chord progression for practice. There's always one finger that doesn't move when changing from one chord to the next, so it encourages tidy fingering.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Charmion
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 07:14 AM

A person with small hands and short fingers will need to keep the pinkie on the treble side of the shape to avoid damping the high E string.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Bernard
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 07:49 AM

I forgot to mention - I always teach students to tuck the pinky in behind the ring finger - it helps avoid damping the high E and helps in holding the B string down... and I encourage them to practice 'stacking' the three fingers without a guitar as often as they can - the pad of one finger sits on the nail of the next.

I've found that size of hand is far less important than determination!!

If you adopt the 'correct classical position' with the thumb in the middle of the back of the neck, even small hands can manage very well - I was teaching junior school children this way.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 07:52 AM

I would start a beginner off with a simple, two-finger A7: X02020 with middle finger on 4th string and ring finger on 2nd string. Then, when they're comfortable with that, slip the index finger in on the 3rd string to change it to an A major (X02220).

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 08:19 AM

Index finger across all 4 bottom stings, second fret, and the little finger holding down the top E on the 5th fret.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: PHJim
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 08:31 AM

I first learned the index finger A and I like it for the little blues shuffle you can get by moving from X02220 to 02222 to X02223 to X02222 and repeat.
If there is difficulty bending the index back far enough to avoid muting the first string, you could make the long A X02225.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Cool Beans
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 10:52 AM

Great advice and thank you, all!

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 10:58 AM

If I understand it correctly, don't like Bernard's plan for fingering A at all, it's too cramped. I also disagree with his "a guitarist never lifts..." and say the opposite..you only lower your fingers when necessary." I do like the classical thumb, though.

John McKenzie, I know what you're talking about, but next time say " little finger holding down the top E *string* on the 5th fret," because the "e" pitch on the 5th fret is played on the B string, and, at least for anyone who has bothered to learn the notes, your description is paradoxical.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Stanron
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 11:36 AM

Apologies to John McKenzie but in my experience when referring to guitar strings 'top' and 'bottom' are about pitch and not position. On a right handed guitar, played by a right handed player, the top string (the string with the highest pitch) is on the bottom and the bottom string (the one that sounds lowest) is on the top.

Of course some left handed players will take that guitar, turn it upside down and play it like that and then the top string will be on top.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 12:25 PM

PHJim uses the notation that is easiest to make sense out of. It drives me crazy when someone says "First string, fifth finger, fourth fret" or some such thing. It is less confusing if you refer to the strings by their pitch, the frets by their number, and the fingers by their names. Also, be real clear about what you mean when you say "Higher" and "Lower".

Mind you, I am not blaming any of you. The instrument was like that when we got here.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 12:44 PM

In pics

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Bernard
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 04:17 PM

To put what I said into perspective, the chords I always start new pupils off with are D and A7 - the E, A and B7 system comes along much later.

I also insist on forming G with the 'pinky' on 1st string, third fret, ring finger on 6th string, third fret, and middle finger on 5th string, second fret.

Yes, initially it's a pig, but it makes changing from G to C (and back) much tidier - formimg G without the pinky always looks so clumsy! G to D, once you realise which fingers move where, also works better this way.

Taking the easy shortcut may be okay in the short term, but unless you work painstakingly at your fingering, you will always remain a mediocre to average player - those of us who are above average consider ALL the aspects of playing, not just forming the notes.

People are often surprised when they see the pound of pork sausages I have instead of fingers - yet they don't get in the way of playing properly!

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 04:45 PM

Yes, Bernard, I use the same fingering for a G. Easy transition to a C, or especially a sequence of G to G7 to C.

I do sometimes use the other fingering if my next chord is going to be a Bm, and then my 1st (index) finger is right where it needs to be for the bar.

Numbering the strings and the left-hand fingers is standard notation for classical guitar music.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 04:54 PM

The problem with using the "G-pinky" fingering is that you play your scales, both the bass and treble, without the use of your index finger, which is awkward. This makes it pretty hard to do any sort of Carter-picking,

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Bernard
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 05:55 PM

Don - I would agree - and sometimes I'll use the other fingering if I want to fret the 2nd string third fret to give the G a more 'modal' sound (for want of a better term!).

You may have gathered I'm classically trained, but don't inflict it on pupils who don't want it!


Sorry, Stim, that makes no sense at all to me... I play ragtime guitar, which is next to impossible (to quote Stefan Grossman!) any other way... neatness of fingering is paramount, and you NEVER lift a finger unless you have to...

I've no idea what 'Carter-picking' is... perhaps you could elucidate?

As for playing scales... we're talking about playing CHORDS! Who said anything about scales?

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 05:57 PM

I'm not sure what you mean, Stim, because I don't find it so. And I do some Carter picking.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Stanron
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 06:01 PM

Briefly

Carter Picking

Chords are used or worked through.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 06:56 PM

Cool Beans: there are many ways to do the A chord in that position. Few more advanced players stick with just one. To someone new to that chord, I would start with a three finger that goes 2, 3 and 4 (fingers are usually numbered starting with the index or pointing finger as 1 and the pinky as 4. I use my thumb on some chords and that is designated by a T instead of a number). Strings are numbered from the treble to the bass as 1 through 6 with 1 being the high E and 6 being the low E two octaves below it. (None of these things are written in stone because there is a move on to reverse the string numbering process, and it would make one heckuva lot more sense, IMO. Lord knows where that will end up. BUT, for now, the above is what we have.

No post on this thread is wrong. Depending on the style of music your daughter will play, whether she's finger picking, strumming or flat picking, each of the aforementioned chordings have a place in her future reportoire of A chords. There ARE chord formations which are just plain wrong because they hinder fluid changes, but at this time and in this position, the A just ain't one of them.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: PHJim
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 03:13 AM

Bernard said,"I also insist on forming G with the 'pinky' on 1st string, third fret, ring finger on 6th string, third fret, and middle finger on 5th string, second fret."

While I don't always force a student to change who already plays another form of G chord, this is how I teach it to beginners and how I most often make it myself. Since G is often followed by G7 on the way to C, it makes this change much easier. I will sometimes use the 320033 fingering as well.

I will often finger a D chord with my ring, bird and pinky if I want to follow it with a D7.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Cool Beans
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 08:27 AM

Again, thank you all. I'm going to let my daughter pick the way that's most comfortable to play the A chord, as long as she can easily change chords from that position.

As for the other strands of this thread: I learned to play the G chord using the index, middle and ring finger and it has never hindered my ability to change chords rapidly. It also leaves my pinky free to play the high E on the third fret, and my ring finger to move up a string and play B string on the third fret, the so-called Bluegrass G chord.*

And I have no problem with lifting my fingers from the fretboard. To each his/her own, which is one of the things I appreciate about Mudcat and Mudcatters.

*320033.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Midchuck
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 08:56 AM

For G, I like pinky on first (highest) string, fret 3; middle finger on sixth string, also fret 3; first on fifth string, fret 2. That leaves ring finger free to either fret the second string at fret 3, to leave the B note sounding only in the bass and getting a more "droney" sound (bluegrassers call that the "Tony Rice G), or fret the fourth string at fret 3, producing a G7 with the seventh in the bass, which is a nice passing chord going to C.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 09:59 AM

Its like three little baby triplets inbed to gether. And the littlest one says, move one over I don't want to be too near the edge in case I fall over and out of bed. They move one over.

So there they are all in bed to gether, but in their own beds - strings two, three and four.

If you want, you can think of them as baby puppies.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 12:14 PM

From: GUEST,Stim - PM
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 04:54 PM

The problem with using the "G-pinky" fingering is that you play your scales, both the bass and treble, without the use of your index finger, which is awkward. This makes it pretty hard to do any sort of Carter-picking,"
but easy[ if i have understood correctly] to play melody style piedmont picking, where the melody is played on the treble strings with a four four bass played by thumb

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 12:55 PM

G scales without using the first finger are only uncomfortable if you've never done it. If you practice scales without using the first finger they get easier. In playing the two octave open G scale I only use the first finger on the C on the second string. I imagine that most people who play the 'Pinky G' chord do the same.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 01:22 PM

I'm beginning to suspect that some folks are confusing Maybelle Carter's "scratch" with "Travis picking."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: PHJim
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 01:18 AM

In Travis picking, the thumb alternates strings on the beat to keep the rhythm while the fingers pick a syncopated (or straight)melody on the treble strings.

In the Carter Scratch, the thumb picks the melody on the bass strings, while the fingers strum chords to fill in the spaces. Some people also call the same notes and rhythm played with a flat pick the Carter Scratch.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 03:44 AM

Well, I haven't read all the above BUT the way you finger any chord should be decided by answering the following question, "Which fingering best serves the piece of music that I am playing?"
Sometimes there isn't a choice i.e. there is only one sensible fingering, but often there can be a choice of fingering.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Bernard
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 06:15 AM

The word used was 'teaching', so is asking for the best starting point. The piece of music likely to be attempted at this point is irrelevant, as the OP specifically mentions a beginner, not an experienced player.

When you teach a beginner, you should ALWAYS encourage 'best practice', as lazy techniques will not breed good playing.

It's far harder to shake off poor technique later than it is to learn good technique from the outset.

I'm all for 'instant success', which is why I start off with D and A7 - lots of songs use just two chords (some you can even get away with only one!), but stressing the importance of proper fingering and a good strumming technique are paramount, even on the first lesson.

I've always found adults harder to teach than children, because they always want to put their own 'spin' on things rather than accepting that 'teacher knows best'...!

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Bernard
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 06:19 AM

Grammar alert! I sould have read the above after editing and before posting - I meant 'is paramount', of course!

I could just add that CoolBeans did suggest in the OP that the 'one finger A' may not be the best for a beginner... I rarely do it that way myself unless adding in the 'pinky' on 1st string, fifth fret.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 06:54 AM

i disagree, with a g chord i would mention two possibilites dependent on whether you were in c using g as dominant, so that you might need index for g7, or for melody picking on treble strings, or if you were in g[and g is the tonic chord]using pinky on top string 3rdfret, and middle on 2 string 3rd fret, or alternatively ring finger on 1 string 3rd fret , all the differnt combinations have advantages and dis advantages

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 11:06 AM

For years I was one sorry dude. I practiced improper fingering. Then I found Jesus.

Since then I have stopped years of self abuse and drunkeness.

People regularly compliment me on my good fingering and sensitivity to the basic decencies of guitar ownership.

Remember my father's house has many mansions, but there's no annexe for those that play their guitar after having a dump and not washing their hands.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 12:26 PM

This business about it being harder to relearn old habits. I'd like to state the case for the opposition.

Principle.        The ability to learn is like a muscle. The more you use it the stronger it gets. If you keep on learning stuff, learning more stuff becomes easier.

Observation.        Some people learn technical stuff up to a level where they can perform whatever type of music that motivates or interests them. This can be playing rhythm guitar, fingerpicking, lead electric, classical or whatever. Once they have reached this point the focus of their learning moves from technique to repertoire. If this move is 100% then their technique learning muscle will atrophy and eventually cease to exist.

Conclusion.        Only those people who have let their technique learning muscle atrophy to zero will experience difficulty in relearning old habits. For someone who is always developing technique, changing old habits is no harder than learning new material.

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: Bernard
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 12:51 PM

Hmmm... surprising how people miss the point when it's staring them in the face, innit?! Opening post said 'beginner' and also said 'adult'... so why do people go off on a tangent about completely irrelevant complications? A beginner does not need ifs and buts, just 'do it this way'. Once they become an experienced player, then AND ONLY THEN is the time to try alternative approaches.

I stick to my point... AS A TEACHER (certificated) I know that it's better to learn good technique from the start than to have to re-learn it later. That's what the years of college training were all about.

End of!!

Subject: RE: Teaching the A chord (guitar)
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 02:05 PM

Bernard ,I think you are talking cods wallop, i dont care if you are a certificated teacher.
Being a certificated teacher does not necessarily make you a good teacher.