Is Folk Dead

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 09:37 AM

yours is a very devisive anti most things not trad

I beg to differ. Here's the evidence: Folk Police Recordings.

And for the record, traditional English music makes up about 5% of my record collection. But when I go to a folk club that advertises itself as mainly traditional music, I do assume that mainly traditional music is what I'm going to hear... ;-)

Personally I think there is some brilliant folkish stuff out there that isn't traditional. This is one of the best new songs of the year so far in my opinion, for example: Sproatly Smith: Blackthorn Winter. And oh that we had more songwriters as good as Alasdair Roberts.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 07:35 AM

Spleen Cringe
No offence taken at all Spleen. I agree not all, or even most open Mic clubs should be termed folk, I'm referring more to acoustic Singers nights. What it comes down to though is, your's is a very devisive anti mot things not trad, and I can only assume from your general comments that 'trad' to you is trad English? But trad to me is English, Irish, American, European, in fact from anywhere near enough
Fact is Trad English clubs are certainly on the decline, certainly the guest booking clubs have been dying according to their own Org Folk21. Others, including the Singers/open mic clubs are thriving, and I suggest that's because they are MUCH more welcoming than the trad English clubs, to all those other genres of FOLK music I mentioned above.
yes of course 'some' trad clubs are friendly and welcoming. But MOST are not, and they simply are not moving with the times. Fair enough if that's what they want. but then you can't be going round complaining 'Folk is Dead' because in the true meaning of the word it's never been healthier. Of course on many singers nights you'll hear some crap or overdone songs, but are you really asking us to believe you don't get that in trad clubs!? Long live FOLK

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: GUEST,Billy Mill
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 04:05 AM

There were 12 jolly dons came out of the south their fortunes for to try -
And these 12 jolly dons made a solemn vow that folk music should die.
They collected, defined it and sucked it dry - buried it deep where but few feared to tread...
Then these 12 jolly dons made a solemn vow that folk music was dead.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: GUEST,Bay City Roll Neck Sweater
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 01:12 PM

errrmm.. big problem with cricket/folk analogy is that cricket is a very tedious ordeal for non fans..


oh.. ok.. on 2nd thoughts it's a perfect analogy !!!


Though, players of folk music should hope be less likely to suffer a sudden painful impact
to the head or the groin ???

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 11:19 AM

PS
How can the new generation hope to forge their own brand of Folk if we Old Fogies don't tut and disapprove? Otherwise they would be Young Fogies.
Fashions in Folk? (shudder) - when did you last hear "Jug of Punch" or the old Norfolk ditty "Wild Rover"? Well?

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 11:13 AM

Folk is not dead, Folk is wot folks do.

In a hundred years we will see Folk clubs demonstrating:

people falling asleep in front of the telly.

People yapping on their mobile phones loudly (Mortimer's reflex refers).

People with a million "friends" they have never met.

Lightbulb jokes.

How to lump all yer debts into one humungous, crippling debt.

People getting drunk (oh dear - plus ca change)

Folk is dead, long live Folk.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 11:10 AM

Since its nearly halloween can we just declare it undead?

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: MikeL2
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 07:31 AM

hi

<" In the 1950s the pundits gleefully predicted the demise of Test Cricket.">

Good analogy.

Test Cricket now bears little resemblance to the cricket played today. The game has been adapted by the newer generations.

So too with "folk" - it's just evolving.

cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 06:36 AM

Folk cannot be dead! If it was, acoustic music clubs would not call themselves 'folk clubs', pop/rock festivals would not call themselves 'folk festivals', and singer/songwriters of dubious talent would not call themselves 'folk singers'

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 04:21 AM

The thing is, give Folk a prod with a stick - see if its still breathing....it might just be pissed.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: cujimmy
Date: 28 Oct 12 - 05:51 PM

I just dont see the reason to be so pessimistic - there are threads going back 10 yrs 15 yrs telling us that folk music is dying and in 10 years from now someone will be telliing us of the same

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: Allen in Oz
Date: 28 Oct 12 - 05:08 PM

In the 1950s the pundits gleefully predicted the demise of Test Cricket.

Like Test Cricket, folk muisc will just bat on regardless.

It is somewhat like the situation when they told Dorothy Parker that President Calvin Coolidge was dead and she said " How could they tell"?

AD

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Oct 12 - 04:52 PM

It means, as you said, that it is not dead. Indeed for reasons including those of yours.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: cujimmy
Date: 28 Oct 12 - 03:54 PM

what does that mean Richard

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Oct 12 - 03:10 PM

100 - NO!

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: cujimmy
Date: 28 Oct 12 - 01:49 PM

I can appreciate your points regarding commercialism, but appart from the 1960 or 70s folk was never really commercial was it - well certainly not in England I dont think. The audience on Friday evening didnt come along due to recomendation from any radio or other medias recomendation - it was largely due to word of mouth and the fact that Ewan sang Traditional Scottish Scottish folk songs so well that people in Yorkshire understood and enjoyed them so much you could have heard a pin drop while he was singing them, and many people would have went home and tried to learn the songs themselves afterwards - ie passing on "The Living Tradition". which for me and many others im sure is what makes Folk music so interesting and enjoyable.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Oct 12 - 12:54 PM

'The problem in my view lies with the commercialization of folk music.'

Yes its a pity we don't seem to be able to do that.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Oct 12 - 12:27 PM

The problem in my view lies with the commercialization of folk music. Many perceive it as another branch of show business such as rock and roll or soul et. al. and when they don't hear it on the radio or see it highly advertised as a concert, they conclude that it is dead. Actually, because of its limits in the show biz world, it has burgeoned as an alternative by people making music for themselves and exploring how others have done it.

A lot more interest in traditional music is taking place and new exponents from traditional cultures are becoming visible to a larger group of folkie aficionados.

Look at the wealth of traditional folk music that has been growing on recordings, far exceeding the amount of earlier years.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: cujimmy
Date: 28 Oct 12 - 11:13 AM

I went to see Ewan McLennan at the Grove Folk club in Leeds on Friday night - he sang a lot of lovely trditional Scottish songs very well, along with some of his own songs, a Bob Dylan song and a traditional American song during his concert to an audience which included many people under 30 - no folk music is definately not dead - I dont understand why some people are so pessimistic, and why people start doom and gloom mudcat threads about Folk Music when its as relevant today as it ever was.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 07:51 AM

"What has changed - and this has nothing to do with multiculturalism - is that the old model of the folk club as the main place for hearing folk music is declining. With a few notable exceptions it is probably in terminal decline and will probably die off with the last of the diehard 60s/70s folkies. But what that really means is that things have moved on and that the standard-issue folk club is not necessarily the model that many people want now."

While I (kind of) agree, I would say that I think it's worth trying to sustain folk clubs.

While I prefer trad folk clubs, at the end of the day it's not what songs are sung at them, it's the "club" aspect that is the clincher for me. It's that aspect of trust and commitment and sociability that is their charm and their potency and their strength.
The one really nice thing about folk clubs is that they are clubs, and regulars still appear to be prepared to turn up most weeks and pay money to sing, participate and - get this - pay over £5 to hear an act they may never have even heard before.

That last bit is now so out of step with the "pay nothing for anything" mentality prevalent in the arts that I think it'd be a real shame if it died: if folk clubs just became gigs where the act plays the album (or whatever). There are already enough gigs and they can be amazing and there probably always will be.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: GUEST,Sidewinder
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 07:23 AM

I went to the "Folk" Festival in Robin Hoods Bay (back in June) and heard some lovely interpretations of "You're So Vain" "If I Should Fall Behind" and "Stairway to Heaven" etc. So, take it from me; Folk is alive and sticking.

Regards.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: GUEST,Erich
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 11:44 AM

I don't think folk is dead. Listen to performers like Gavin Davenport, Crucible, Lady Maisery, Hannah James and lots of other young people doing the old songs in their own "new" way. On the other hand the BBC is trying to kill it. Just think what happend to Folkwaves und what is going on with Mike Harding.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 10:27 AM

Some of it isn't, Lev! ;-)

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 09:54 AM

"or that composed songs are "folk" until they are assimilated."

Not sure what you mean by 'assimilated'. Using that argument would mean that beer isn't beer until you piss it out.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: Snuffy
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 08:53 AM

Shouldn't that be "ARE Folk dead"?

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: selby
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 07:49 AM

If you are in touch with the under 25's folk is alive and having a great time. The under 30's have started having children and they are all around the festivals having a great time with their kids. The under 50,s are having a great time enjoying folk music in all its forms. The over 60's are all sat at home moaning about folk music dying not been the same when I was younger, There are exceptions to this rule of course. They can be found enjoying folk music all over the place!!!!!!
Keith

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 07:45 AM

or that composed songs are "folk" until they are assimilated.

Sounds like Borg Technology to me, Richard.

I say again - less prescription, more description. All music is about process - that's what makes it music. What makes it Folk Music is a matter of part aesthetic & cultural intention and part wishful thinking. If we talk about (say) The Folk Music of Transylvania, we're talking of very specific FORMS of music & revival. Same goes for all so-called Folk Musics - each defined by form, idiom, genre & canon however so derived because all music is a matter of Process of Derivation which is synonymous with Tradition.

Name me one that isn't & I'll eat my hat (and a damn fine hat it is too, though not as fine as my old Irish Hannah trilby, though hopefully soon I'll be sporting a John B Stetson...)

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 06:56 AM

then apparently deny that folk music can survive as such in the UK

Where, Richard? My point was in response to the paranoid crap further up the thread about how multiculturalism is a threat to folk music, which the evidence clearly shows it isn't. I'd have thought you'd agree with that?

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 06:45 AM

If however, Al, a tune is defined by pitch and timing then taking a modal tune and replacing the melody with one that is not modal (if there is any such thing as a mode) is to make a different tune, one that is not the older one.

I am not aware of anyone asserting that speech habits define whether something is folk or net. Welcome to Big Al's Aunt Sally shy. Odd, really, when we here see a neat restructuring of the folk process as "The whole point of it was that it was passed on for fun by generation after generation, each generation adding their twist and accomplishments and beliefs - and that it is why it survived - it lived in the hands of those who used it."

Spleen Cringe can say "You seem not to accept that there are types of folk music all over the world, not just in the UK and America" and "every culture has its own folk and traditional music" then apparently deny that folk music can survive as such in the UK. Shome mishtake shurely.

Surely any historian would have to accept "We need to know our history through song, and to a certain extent through dance". We rightly accept it of those of foreign heritage. Why deny it to some only?

I'm all up for mucking about with melodies and rhythms (anyone who's heard me play should have spotted that) but that is the folk process. If that involves new things from different places - well, that's just the same as people moving about in this country in the past.

But none of it means that folk is dead, or that composed songs are "folk" until they are assimilated.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 05:55 AM

To expand on the above.

We live in a multi-cultural society. We also live in a society where there are loads of folk festivals, folk gigs at art centres and pubs and clubs up and down the country, loads of young musicians playing folk music as performers, at sessions and so on. Despite the BBC changes, we have more folk music on the radio than ever before - whether it be BBC local radio, community radio or internet radio. The folk awards are a televised national event. Labels and promoters proliferate. And you can't nmve for morris dancers, mummers and assorted lovable lunatics! We should probably even celebrate the fact that folk influenced indie pop musicians like Mumford and Sons are incredibly popular.

What has changed - and this has nothing to do with multiculturalism - is that the old model of the folk club as the main place for hearing folk music is declining. With a few notable exceptions it is probably in terminal decline and will probably die off with the last of the diehard 60s/70s folkies. But what that really means is that things have moved on and that the standard-issue folk club is not necessarily the model that many people want now.

Our multicultural society means we are exposed to all sorts of culture and music and arts we might not have been otherwise, and make no mistake, every culture has its own folk and traditional music. I love the fact that as well as going to listen to traditional English folk, in my city I can also hear sitar recitals, Balkan gypsy music and so on - it's a real pleasure and privilege. People with different cultural backgrounds living side by side also presents fantastic opportunities for artists and musicians to do cross-cultural collaborations and I hope we see more of this (though this is nothing new - you only have to check out some of the stuff the Jon Renbourn Group put out in the early 1970s to see that).

If we have a folk music that is scared of and threatened by multiculturalism we have a folk music that deserves to die. An interest in the musical heritage of these islands does not depend on a paranoid seige mentality. If anything will kill it, that will.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 04:47 AM

Will a more curious generation take up the interst in years to come ?? unlikely in a multicultural society.

With all due respect (i.e. none): utter bollocks.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 04:40 AM

unlikely in a multicultural society.

If that's the case then it can't die quick enough as far as I'm concerned, nor yet those who choose to cling to such fallacious racist nonsense.

Happily, however, it's not the case at all. Indeed, it has been suggested that the 2nd wave of the UK Folk Revival was moved by radical Baby Boomers encouraged to look at their own culture in the light of emerging multiculturalism - not as some reaction to cultural diversity, but so as to make a more positive contribution to it.

Sadly, it's not just the BNP who have hitched their rancid cause to the name of Folk over the years, and many otherwise sensible folkies I meet feel that they are making a stand for 'our own good culture' (or somesuch claptrap) in the face of 'threats' from immigrant communities who, naturally, aren't too impressed at the English scheme overall. God knows they are not alone in that! Thus does Folk take its place as part of the ongoing movement of alternative & radical action which embraces all music dedicated to human interest. We have a long & proud tradition of that in the West - and an awareness of World Music is its natural & glorious outcome.

But still I meet the odd grizzled old folky muttering in their pewter tankard that FRoots has somehow betrayed the cause. Thankfully, such people are few & far between; getting fewer and further by the day.

To call Folk 'Our Own Good Culture' is, frankly, bullshit. Folk is a modern fabrication of a tiny minority which, at its post creative and positive seeks to takes its place in a culturally diverse world. As Hamish Henderson said : before we can ever be national, we must first be international. In a multicultural society such as our own that internationalism is part of our cosmopolitan national consciousness. Folk evolved to be a part of that: it exists because of multiculturalism, not to spite it. In short, without Multiculturalism there would be no Folk.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 03:48 AM

With you there, Big Al. We need a bit of folk Darwinism - adapt and survive.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 03:37 AM

"The demography which which started / supported this genre will all "fall" over in the next ten to twenty years time (including me - I suppose). Will a more curious generation take up the interst in years to come ?? unlikely in a multicultural society.
I'm not totally sure why we did it , but I thought it was to re-discover or ,understand our ancestry ,understand social (and political) conditions.
We needed to know our history through song, and to a certain extent through dance. I'm afraid that future generations will not have our unified heritage upon which the "Folk Scene" was based"

Well, maybe you can take some solace in that I didn't get into folk for any such reason, and neither did any of the other people I know. A lot of younger people get into folk simply cos they like the tunes.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 10:29 PM

It's not half as dead as the question being asked in the thread title.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 08:30 PM

Frankly Betty, if folksong can survive what the traddies have been doing to it these forty years, it can survive anything.

The whole point of it was that it was passed on for fun by generation after generation, each generation adding their twist and accomplishments and beliefs - and that it is why it survived - it lived in the hands of those who used it.

The idea of replicating the voice of an 18th century farmer evicted cos of the land enclosures, or using a wayward rhythm, or a modal scale as the basis for English folksong. All guarnateed to drive the average listener away and conceal the inherent strength and beauty of the music from a modern listener - that has been the contribution of our generation.

Some of us disagreed with the approach, but louder more arrogant voices prevailed.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: Betsy
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 07:24 PM

Not quite - but let's be realistic about this - The demography which which started / supported this genre will all "fall" over in the next ten to twenty years time (including me - I suppose). Will a more curious generation take up the interst in years to come ?? unlikely in a multicultural society.
I'm not totally sure why we did it , but I thought it was to re-discover or ,understand our ancestry ,understand social (and political) conditions.
We needed to know our history through song, and to a certain extent through dance. I'm afraid that future generations will not have our unified heritage upon which the "Folk Scene" was based , and possibly our genre will be consigned to the dustbin of time. One thing for certin is was great fun , intellectually stimulating, a wealth of knowledge, fabulous social value, and a lovely means of Social intercourse and meeting new friends , whilst it lasted. And ...great great music
Long Live Folk
Betsy.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 02:03 PM

Well I'm Johnny Come Lately to the scene. I wouldn't dignify what I do as calling it THE Dorchester Folk Club.

James Findlay and and Jerry Bird do a scene at Martinstown and at The Blue Raddle in town.

I'm at The Cornwall Hotel - every Thursday - for a while at least. theres another opn mic at Tom Brown's - also on a Thursday.

Bob Kirkpatrick has two folk clubs round the Broadmayne area.

theres loads of other stuff going on at Weymouth and Bridport.

Not to mention Morris related stuff.

Not the stuff that gets on BBC4 - probably not folk music according to some people. No wonder they think its dead. their view of folk music is SO exclusive.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 12:49 PM

Carrie, you are about to stir up a hornet's nest on a topic that is unsolvable.

Dick, we are on the same page. I remember that you are a good old time clawhammer banjo picker. We both have had interesting experiences with Bascom Lunsford who I consider to be a great folk musician despite his personal ideology.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: bubblyrat
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 05:49 AM

Hi ,Big Al ! ; I used to play at Dorchester Folk Club a lot back in the 1960s .It was upstairs in a pub called "The Chequers" in the High Street . Where's it to nowadays ?

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 04:47 AM

someone who generally comes across as a decent bloke, but who sometimes talks some right old utter toss.

Isn't that the standard OED definition of Mudcatter?

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 03:14 AM

Al, I don't see you as the root of all problems. I see you as someone who generally comes across as a decent bloke, but who sometimes talks some right old utter toss. Okay?

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: CarrieS
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 01:40 AM

Doesn't it all depend on your definition of folk?

Carrie (newbie)

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 10:38 PM

...and with the wind comes the regenerative pieces of wha. So spake Jake the Dubious Gentleman in the whack coat. Pleased to meet you.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: GUEST,Bay City Roll Neck Sweater
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 10:03 PM

Folk is Undead !!!

Folk creeps out of dank darkness
to prey on and devour the flesh and souls
of young pop music fans........

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 09:34 PM

went to Weymouth folk club tonight. My own in Dorchester tomorrow.

If it helps to see me as the root of all problems, okay SC. You are right. I am wrong. If that affords you any satisfaction - good on ya - glad to be of service.

However it still makes no difference to the fact that the great mass of English people have seen your tradition - and run a mile in the opposite direction.

I rather like it that people are coming to folk clubs and open mics and writing in traditions and genres that they are comfortable with.

Amd if it is introspective and rambling occasionally. well the old tradition was not without its faults.

As that great folk artist jesse j said - its not about the money, money, money...
Its about things having changed.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: Janie
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 08:23 PM

Folk will die when humans are extinct. When the last person standing doesn't hear or sing, if only in their mind, some song that expresses their condition or sorrow, or longing for final rest.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 06:43 PM

Al. You prove my point. I think.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: GUEST,Gibsonboy
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 05:14 PM

Dave Hanson is right I just wanted to start an argument, and it seems I have. However, since none of you lot seem to be able to agree on anything, maybe my point is proved.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Dead
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 04:18 PM

That guest was me. Deletions of posts are bad enough, but deletions of cookies is worse.