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Subject: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: Joe Offer Date: 27 Oct 12 - 05:02 AM OK, so I bought a new computer with Windows 7 a couple months ago, which qualifies me for a $14.99 download of Windows 8 Pro. The download offer is good through January 31. So, do I want to install Windows 8 on my computer, or am I better off keeping windows 7? I've been planning to buy a Windows 8 computer to donate to the women's center where I volunteer. This computer will be used for a lot of graphics work, with Adobe Creative Suite. Again, should I buy a Windows 8 computer, or hold out for Windows 7? One reason why I was waiting to buy the donation, is because I wanted at least one computer to play with that had Windows 8. If you've had experience with Windows 8, can you tell us what you think of it? I'd prefer personal experiences, not just something some Windows-trasher wrote on the Internet. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: JohnInKansas Date: 27 Oct 12 - 05:41 AM No experience, Joe, although I've read most of the reviews that have been touted in my newsletters. Reports are that hardly any business users are likely to buy into Win8, and my own opinion is that it's unlikely they could pay me enough to induce me to bother with it. Although they claim it's fully "two-faced" (they say it with a "straight face" that's apparently not one of the Win8 faces) so that you can use the "alternate mode" for desktops, the only "new features" described so far would have no possible use that I can see except on mini-portable machines a person with a sufficiently addictive personality might buy just to "keep up with everybody similarly afflicted." It's absolutley imperative if you're considering Win8 to know that there are only two versions (basic and more expensive) for the "real one," but that "small machines" being offered by some OEMs have what Microsoft calls the "Windows RT" system but that some OEMs are advertising as Win8. This version(?) sounds like a ressurected Commodore 64 but with lots of flashing lights and "magic hand waves" instead of identifiable operating commands. The only sort of "new" news is the official claim that Win8 will run anything Win7 would, although they're vague about whether "run" means in a normal way or in some crippled special mode, like Win7 ran "almost everything" WinXP did - - - not. I'll watch for your decision, and continue reading anything that looks worth the effort, but I'm not likely to move toward Win8 until there's a lot more - and significantly different - info than what I've seen so far. (But of course you know I'm still pissed at what they did to Office three generations ago, so I'm probably a "hostile witness.") John |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: JohnInKansas Date: 27 Oct 12 - 05:58 PM Joe Reception for Win8 on the initial day of release has been sort of lukewarm. A report from the "Business News" may have some comments of interest: Microsoft pins high hopes on radical shift with Windows 8 A fairly brief report of some of the "learning curve problems" to expect might be in: Where do I click again? A Windows 8 guide (Fairly brief, but probably helpful?) The most complete description of what you'll find in Win8 is a little "dated" (September 2012) but offers quite a bit of detail: Microsoft Windows 8 review This last one is multiple pages, but if you're strong enough to tough out going through it all it appears to give a pretty thorough description, although there may have been some minor changes at the last minute for the released versions. Note that with Vista and later versions, Microsoft has bragged about features as if they're in all versions of each new OS, leaving it to the users to find out that what was described is only there in the top-priced versions and that they need an upgrade. Win8 simplifies that some, with only two different versions, but I have seen some similar vagueness. If you're interested in particular features, you need to be careful about making sure that the ones you expect are in the version you get. Some sellers appear to advertise the separate "RT" OS as being the same thing as Windows 8. IT IS NOT THE SAME. You probably will only see the RT on tablets or notebooks, etc., but some people apparently have been fooled. The implied requirement to have a "touch screen monitor" in order to use the most flamingly advertised features of Win8 seems to be ignored, and although Microsoft brags about how "all your old programs" will run on Win8 (I don't really believe them on this, but I've got some really old stuff on Win7) and they have lots of help with whether your computer is compatible for upgrading, I have yet to see a clear spec (or statement) about what monitor requirements could trip you up. There could be no problem but nobody says that. Happy confusion. Let us know how you're getting on with it. John |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Oct 12 - 06:48 PM As Shakespeare put it in King Lear "Striving to better, oft we mar what's well"... |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: JohnInKansas Date: 28 Oct 12 - 12:24 PM A recent commentary on the directions Microsoft has been going doesn't say much specifically about Win8, but might be of interest relative to whether something other than Microsoft might be worth considering. Microsoft's biggest gamble yet: risking the name 'Windows'. The premise of the article is that Microsoft has applied the name "Windows" to so many different (some trivial, and quite a few useless(?)) things, that "Windows" doesn't really mean much any more, and the "brand identity" has been lost. "But Microsoft's made a big mistake: they've stretched the Windows brand so thin that it's going to confuse customers -- and maybe even drive them away." and "Yet a quick look at recent history makes one thing clear: Microsoft is making it up as they go along. And that might not be good enough anymore." Microsoft identified the market potential for "mobile devices" fairly early, and development of systems and programs for that market has given them a significant boost; but they've made the grossly inappropriate assumption that everything has to be "mobile." By trying to make existing programs conform to "mobile device" limitations, they've pretty much destroyed their appeal to the market base that made them rich enough to blunder ahead, and have made their former "flagship" programs, used by large numbers of people for purposes in which "mobility" is of secondary importance, incredibly more difficult to use and impossible for any new users to learn what they can do. If your interest is only in being "mobile" and you've got one of the "mobile toys" to put it on, Win8 may be interesting enough to try. If you still use a keyboard and mouse, but are fairly casual in your computer uses, Win8 probably is okay if you're willing to relearn quite a few basics. If you still work at a desktop and communicate mostly by mail or email, and read from websites to find something to think about and not just giggles to "forward to friends," I can't see any significant benefits - and quite a few difficulties - with switching to Win8. A somewhat special area of uncertainty is that prior versions of Windows have included quite a few "accessibility aids" that are pretty well known, and useful to some people with difficulties of sight, coordination, and other special needs (i.e. lots of our "elders?"). I've seen absolutely nothing related to Win8 that admits that users may include anyone not perfectly coordinated and between ages 12 and 20. The new system is sufficiently different to merit some consideration of the capabilities of the intended users, especially if plans are for donation where there may be a variety of users of varying abilities. I've drawn a complete blank looking for built in consideration of "special needs" users in the "new interface." Third party programs can probably provide some such features, but I don't know a lot about any of them. John |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: Nick Date: 28 Oct 12 - 01:31 PM I have done some testing at work on Windows 8 and found that after about 1/2 hr that it was pleasantly intuitive and easy to use |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: EBarnacle Date: 28 Oct 12 - 03:56 PM Nick, what sorts of devices were you using? |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: Nick Date: 29 Oct 12 - 08:17 AM Desktop PC |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: JohnInKansas Date: 29 Oct 12 - 10:47 AM Nick - Microsoft doesn't want you to do that anymore. On the other hand, a different editor at the same magazine has a different view. Note that the first guy talks about what it does for the desktop user. The second guy only raves about how wonderful it is for MICROSOFT'S MARKETING (profit?) plans. (Both reviews were in the same newsletter today.) John |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 From: Arthur_itus Date: 31 Oct 12 - 05:36 AM Windows 8 has just been released. I have read the reviews and comments from people who already have it. Think I will stick with Vista. Anybody got it already and would like to comment on the good and bad points? |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 From: JohnInKansas Date: 31 Oct 12 - 06:14 AM Check out thread Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release on same subject - only about a week ahead of ya. John |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: Arthur_itus Date: 31 Oct 12 - 07:41 PM My wife is a touch typist and is a translator. No way will she go onto Win 8. The most important tool for her is her keyboard. She can use all the shorcuts to speed her work up. How stupid to think that she might want to use a touch screen. I can imagine many people having serious arm problems with a touch screen. Lets face it, the new version sis designed at Tablets and people using the touch screen. This is worth looking through completely before you decide to upgrade http://reviews.cnet.com/windows/microsoft-windows-8/4505-3672_7-35321713.html#lf_comment=41958240 Question. Will it run Opene Office which is free? From what i can see you will need the new Office software. I may be wrong about that. However Microsoft are looking to make loads of dosh out of everybody. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 From: Greg F. Date: 31 Oct 12 - 07:49 PM Its great if you want a combination smart phone and pinball machine. Not so good for folks looking for a computer. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 From: Arthur_itus Date: 31 Oct 12 - 07:58 PM Agreed Greg. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: Joe Offer Date: 31 Oct 12 - 08:10 PM Most of the time, I'm in typing mode on the computer; and anything that takes my hands off the keyboard, slows me down. There are some times when I'm mostly in "reading mode," and then using the keyboard is a hassle and I'd rather have a mouse or a touch screen (although I'm not sold on touch screens). Guess I need both my Kindle Fire and my desktop - Windows 7 works fine for me; so I'm waiting for someone to say I can use my keyboard for everything on Windows 8, before I get the $14.99 Windows 8 download. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Oct 12 - 08:24 PM I've got a touchscreen on th epPC I bought a few months ago. I hardly ever use it. The main impact it has on my computer experience is that one of our kittens will sometimes sneak up and change something by batting the screen with a paw, so I lose the screen I've been working on. I'm pretty sure that what this kind of change is about isn't anything to do with helping computer users, it's to do with imposing obsolescence on us so we have to buy new stuff. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: Arthur_itus Date: 31 Oct 12 - 08:27 PM That's exactly what I think McGrath |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: Arthur_itus Date: 31 Oct 12 - 08:28 PM Thanks for merging Joe. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: artbrooks Date: 31 Oct 12 - 09:12 PM This from PC Magazine : mouse and keyboard are hardly forgotten. The full complement of keyboard shortcuts still works, and navigating through the new interface with the mouse and mouse wheel is almost as intuitive as touch gesture input—though there are certainly some actions where touch is a better fit. Using the Windows Key becomes particularly important, as it summons the Start screen and offers key combinations that let you search, share, change settings, access devices, and more. There are a number of other articles there. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: Don Firth Date: 31 Oct 12 - 09:26 PM Touchscreen? I don't think so. I learned touch typing in high school, and there are only two situations when I take my hands off the keyboard: when I use the mouse, which is a handy gadget and my fingers are not off the board for long, and when I go wild and stoke up Dragon Naturally Speaking. From what I've heard about Windows 8 so far (a program on my local NPR station with a couple of experts discussing it pro and con), I'll stick with Windows 7. Windows 7 came on my relatively new HP laptop and it took awhile to get the hang of it, and I still can't figure out how to do some of the things I used to do easily on Windows XP. I don't know what the hell MicroSoft means by "more intuitive." I don't think THEY know. I think it's just a buzz-word they like to throw around. Don Firth P. S. Somebody gave me an iPod complete with touchscreen some time ago. I'm told it's the eighth wonder of the world, but I'm still trying to figure out whether I'm supposed to salute it or sacrifice a goat to it. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 31 Oct 12 - 11:23 PM Touchscreens !!!???? All my life working with expensive Audio Visual equipment it has become professionally ingrained in me to obsessively carefully avoid even the slightest specks of dust & grease smudges on critical optical glass surfaces... Touchscreens !!!!!!!!!?????????????? |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: JohnInKansas Date: 31 Oct 12 - 11:48 PM I don't know what the hell MicroSoft means by "more intuitive." When Microsoft first began making noises about "redesigning" all their stuff, one of the bragging points was that they had "tested using hundreds of novice computer users" to find out what they would "do intuitively" when faced with something they didn't understand, and for which they had no idea of what it could do for them. Many of the test subjects were deliberately "unsophisticated juveniles" in order to emphasize what "computer illiterates" found to be "intuitive." So "intuitive" only applies to users who know nothing about all the remarkable things that it took someone with "learned skills" to use, and anyone who even knew what to call anything requiring thought to use was excluded from the test groups. Hence anything that previously could be learned was either concealed or removed from the "new" programs. Since all this happened at about the time they were trying to "KILL" Win98, and they had deleted almost their entire Knowledge Base that once had the answers to most significant real problems any older programs might, have in order to keep users of older systems from continually patching and fixing to keep them running, the result was: 1. Only what illiterate juveniles might find to do (largely by accident) is visible in the new programs. 2. EVERY PROGRAM must have a minimum of 700 icons, instead of useful menus, because *** like to have lots of things they can click. 3. None of the links can go to anything useful, since that might lead some *** into something "unintuitive" and we'd have to explain it. 4. All references to what you might be able to do have been removed. You should just be happy with whatever happens. 5. If you have a problem, you can talk to other ***s about it on Twitter, but Microsoft won't help you. The basic explanation - the bottom line - is that they tried to make something that "any *** will think has enough pinball lights to make them happy." This was followed by the understanding that they had created the "perfect software for ***s," which ultimately led an apparently sparse few to realizing "but only ***s will want it." Of course this latter understanding was managed by developing a new marketing plan with the premise "only ***s will buy Microsoft stuff anyway, so that's who we'll sell it to." This has been remarkably successful, since there are enormous numbers of ***s, apparently most of whom have daddies with lots of money, so for a time, Microsoft prospered. "Intuitive" means "we put so many illegible and unintelligible icons on it that any *** will be bound to find something to be happy with if he clicks enough of them, and if he doesn't he'll get tired and take a nap and won't bother us." Alternatively, one may say "intuitive" just means "more like what we think a Mac looks like - but we don't understand that either." NOTE: I tried to think of a single term generic enough to be unoffensive to our PC critics, but couldn't come up with one that wouldn't offend at least someone. Substitute the appropriate term of your own choosing for ***. John |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: GUEST,Steve Date: 01 Nov 12 - 04:21 AM I've been running win8 pre-release for two or three months and I like it. I run it dual boot on the same desktop pc as a win7 partition, and it feels a bit slicker. I've read somewhere that there's been some optimisation of the underlying code so that may not be my imagination. Nice clean graphics. The start menu seems a tiny bit pointless (or is it just a flat Start menu?) but hasn't got in the way of my using it. Some aspects I like, a few others take a short while to get used to (as with Win95, XP, Vista etc.etc.etc.) I can't agree with anyone that Vista is better - Vista was just Win7 beta with all the bugs left in. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: JohnInKansas Date: 01 Nov 12 - 05:49 AM Vista is considered, even by Microsoft, to have been a failure. When Win7 was first announced, the common folk made jokes about the main new feature being "It's not Vista." Unfortunately, it appears that Microsoft assigned all their top programmers to Vista, but demanded that they conform to some marketing exec's notion about "needing something new" so that they weren't able to produce the product that those who knew how to make things work could otherwise have made. At about the time that Win7 was announced, it is a fact that Microsoft "cleaned house" and fired or demoted/transferred everyone associated with Vista (i.e. everybody who knew anything but wasn't allowed to use what they knew) at 2d level & higher management. (At least according to our friends at Microsoft, and some reports from tech media sources.) They brought in an entirely new crew of (mostly young?) puppies and pumped them up on "smart phones" before turning them loose on Win8. Reports are that Win8 may be a little "faster" than Win7 although comparative tests haven't shown anything significant. They've added what amounts to an improved "standby mode" that allows much quicker turn on if the machine has been inactive but with power. A cold boot from unpowered condition doesn't appear to be affected (i.e. isn't any faster) but reliable comment has been ambiguous. There appear to be some additional security features, but actual information on what they consider those changes to be has been exceedingly sparse in the technical media. The "new interface" is probably significantly "improved" for "little machines" (some debate whether laptops are little enough?) but what has been published about use on desktops, in conditions where desktops remain appropriate, is that the changes for desktop use are annoying even if they're not the positive barriers to efficient use that some believe they are seeing. If your use of your computer is fairly "casual" (i.e. you mostly use your computer like a "smart phone") it's likely that you'll have few problems with Win8 and may even like it. A "side issue" to Win8 is the new emphasis on "cloud computing" in which you'll have to pay monthly "rent" on programs you use, they will not generally be installed on your own computer, and you'r computer will be a dead hunk of junk if you're not "connected" to run the program "from the cloud source." Cloud storage is being pushed very hard as well, but the "free storage" is a joke for anyone doing serious productive work on a computer, and monthly fees are very high (compared to your own hard drives) if you need more than what's currently offered for "free." Many new small machines are being turned out in anticipation of the move "to the cloud" without even a USB slot or ethernet port, and can only connect to other devices via "WiFi," which remains UNUSABLE in many places in the US, although you can "port to it" through a cable or satellite connection in some places where you can't get to it directly, for enough $$$$$$. There are enough changes to recommend at least a "preview" or "trial" look before committing to Win8, for most users. Currently Microsoft is allowing OEM makers to offer a "downgrade" back to Win7 for people who buy Win8 and aren't happy with it. (Some OEMs charge for the downgrade, but most appear to offer it for free.) If you decide you like it, and it does what you need it to do, then there's no reason not to make the move. I can't see Win8 being more useful than Win7 for a majority of the things I do with my computer, but I probably don't represent a majority of users. I can't - for now at least - recommend it for people I believe are making serious use of their computers. That might change when more information is known, but Microsoft seems to have abandoned the release of technical specs in favor of lots of "adspeak." (Recent studies have indicated that the social groups with the most money can't tell the difference between advertising and news so prospects of improvement for ol' farts like me are pretty dim.) John |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: Arthur_itus Date: 01 Nov 12 - 09:01 AM I think you only need intuitive, if you don't know what you are doing. I turn most of the intuitive options off, as they are a pain in the arse. I used to teach touch typist's all the shorcut keys in MS Office. One thing I always got feedback on, was that they were taught to use office by people in their own company that weren't touch typists and no idea of the shortcuts and always conviced them to use the most for all menu's etc etc. Needlkess to say, tehses ladies were very angry with the people who originally taught them and planned to go back to work and give them a right ole b*********. However, I wonder just how many touch typists there are in work these days. My gut feeling is that companies have become used to allowing people more time to get documents created, becuase so many use the mouse and indeed most people only know that way. I am always amazed at the number of people who think the most important thing when creating a letter or document is to concentrate on how nice a document looks, instead of typing the document first and then making it look good afterwards. The times I have seen people messing around for a day typing a document, when the boss needs a draft first so alterations can be made, before tarting it up. I think it is the fear of giving a draft document for approval first. They want to show off. I always told anybody that worked for me, is that I want the document typed quickly and passed to me for a furst check, then make the necessary changes, then if required, tart it up. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: EBarnacle Date: 01 Nov 12 - 10:15 AM How do they define novice users? It is hard to find people over age 6 who do not keyboard- - -unless they mean the computer illiterate over age 70. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: Don Firth Date: 01 Nov 12 - 03:05 PM ". . . the computer illiterate over age 70." ???? I'm 81. I got my first computer, a KayPro II in 1983. Nine inch black and white (actually black and green) screen, two 5.25" floppy drives with a 195 kilobyte capacity, CP/M operating system on one floppy, which you loaded into the computer's memory, then replaced the operating system floppy with the floppy containing whatever program you wanted to use—in my case, usually WordStar. You saved your data (documents and such) on a floppy on the other drive. No graphical interface. You had to remember CP/M commands, which were not in plain English. For example, to copy a file from on disk to another, you didn't pull up a menu and click on the "Copy" command (you didn't have a mouse, it was all keyboard), at the CP/M prompt you typed "PIP" followed by the name of the file you wanted to copy or transfer, then the name of the file, and the designation of the disk you wanted it copied or transferred to. "PIP" stood for "Peripheral Interchange Program." All other commands were in "computerese" rather than plain English. No internet yet. Laptops? No such thing. But the KayPro II was portable. If you consider 26 pounds "portable." GRUNT while lifting, arm comes loose at shoulder. I got a very good job in 1986, as a technical writer and editor for a firm under contract to the Bonneville Power Administration, involved in their residential weatherization program. I got the job on the basis of my "computer literacy" and the fact that I was a fair whiz with WordStar (not that many people back in those prehistoric times even knew what a "word processor" was), having already written several magazine articles and much of a book on my trusty KayPro (and my Daisywheel printer). On that job, I soon had to get an "IBM compatible" computer and new software to fit. The BPA decided they wanted everything done with the "MultiMate" word processor. I thought MultiMate stank, compared to WordStar, but the pay was good, so wotthehell? Nice part of the job was that a lot of the time I could work at home. But I had to retire my big blue box. *SOB!!* However, I DO love my HP laptop. 17" screen, my wife and I watch movies on it. But I wish they'd stop screwing around with the software. Just come up with good, serviceable programs and stop trying to get you to re-up every year or two. But then business is business. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: JohnInKansas Date: 01 Nov 12 - 03:21 PM We might need to watch the gratuitous slurs about "over age 70" people. Some of us could be getting sensitive, and quite a few others are getting close. There actually is little difference by age or almost any other pigeonhole one might choose, in the percentage of people who "can keyboard" or who are competent "keyboardists" or "touch typists." Some people learn some of it, but most people only pick up enough to "get by." A common requirement for "secretarial employment" has been ability to type something like 70 wpm. I've known at least one person who could do better than 90 wpm with one finger of each hand (on a mechanical typewriter), so he'd have made a very good secretary if he hadn't owned the business. He would, perhaps, have had some difficulty with some of the quick-key combinations that require three keys at a time if he'd had to use a computer, but he was a quick learner. To be hired in most "typing pools" most employers would insist on "touch typing," and about 90 wpm as a minimum. I've known one woman who slightly exceeded 1200 wpm (documented) in an IBM sponsored contest in which she won a new IBM Selectric typewriter in the BC (before computer) days. She was "exceptional." I would not consider anyone whose work needed document production to be trained adequately to use a keyboard for the job if they couldn't type at least 35 or 40 wpm on "easy text," but a little training and practice makes that a reasonable level for most employable people. Exceptions can be made for other skills, of course. Slower than that, it probably is about as efficient to hand-write it and let the office typist or typing pool - assuming there is either - put it in final form. Some companies in the recent past solved the problem of "overly prettified but useless" documents by simply not giving any of their "writers" access to a typewriter, but now that every has their own computer (for other reasons) that doesn't work too well. And many schools now don't teach "typing" or "handwriting" so the level of incompetence, judged by prior expectations, has risen dramatically. There may be more people who can't write legibly enough for anyone to type their scribbles than there are who can't find enough keys on a keyboard to make all the mistakes necessary. (They may end up being physicians writing prescriptions that only the pharmacist can read - although that's just another urban myth. The pharmacist can't read them either, but (s)he can call the nurse for a translation.) John |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: Don Firth Date: 01 Nov 12 - 04:19 PM Before I was six (in 1937) I could block print (reading the funny papers and copying some of the drawings—very fond of "Buck Rogers in the 25th Century"), but when I started school, I was taught to write in "script." Connected writing. My handwriting has gone to pot recently because I don't do all that much of it, but if I concentrated, I can still write in a "nice, round hand." I love writing with a fountain pen, by the way. Anybody remember what a fountain pen is? I also worked at Boeing for several years, and had to use Boeing standard block printing, .12 inch letters, on the engineering drawings. I can still do that quite speedily. When I see youngsters these days grasp a pencil or ball-point pen, I wonder how in the hell they can write anything legible with a grip like that! I was taught to hold a pencil or pen thusly: CLICKY. But when I see kids (and not just kids!) these days grasping a ball point pen with their fist, all fingers including the thumb curled under, or holding it as if they're going to stab it into the paper, it's no bloody wonder that legible handwriting has gone to hell! Not only that, some people these days can't READ connected or cursive writing! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: JohnInKansas Date: 01 Nov 12 - 05:13 PM One of the excellent technical books I've used for several decades for a reference is written entirely by hand using drafting style block letters. The original publication was "before copy machines" so I've always wondered how they set the type, but assume it must have all been printed from photogravure page plates or something similar. It's exceptionally legible, but there probably are very few of us who could replicate the feat. The real problem that I see though, is that nobody is tought to think about what they write so all they want to do is make Power Point Slides. Power Point is fine for a slide show of your vacation pictures, but has no useful application in business or news reporting. It's only handy if you have nothing to say but want to make it "pretty enough" that nobody will notice that you didn't say anything. Lots of technical writers/editors now really love it. (And I suppose that Win8 probably handles PP pretty well, although I won't use it on any OS when there's an alternative.) John |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: Jack Campin Date: 01 Nov 12 - 09:59 PM Microsoft identified the market potential for "mobile devices" fairly early, and development of systems and programs for that market has given them a significant boost; but they've made the grossly inappropriate assumption that everything has to be "mobile." By trying to make existing programs conform to "mobile device" limitations, they've pretty much destroyed their appeal to the market base that made them rich enough to blunder ahead, and have made their former "flagship" programs, used by large numbers of people for purposes in which "mobility" is of secondary importance, incredibly more difficult to use and impossible for any new users to learn what they can do. Apple has been crying all the way to the bank doing the same thing. Their recent operating systems (Lion and Mountain Lion) were designed for maximum compatibility with tablet mobile devices, at the cost of making most of their older software not run at all. (Fuck 'em. I'm still using Tiger). You can hardly blame MS for emulating somebody else's proven strategy. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: JohnInKansas Date: 01 Nov 12 - 10:53 PM An additional factor perhaps to be considered in deciding whether to try out Win8 is the "reasonably firm" announcement made while people were still trying out beta versions that Win8 would not include Media Player as a default. At that time Microsoft was complaining that the licensing fees were too high, so they decided to leave it out. It was never clarified in what I saw whether the licensing cost was for the MP program or for the codex licenses needed to make it work. A little after the first rumors came out, it was claimed that Microsoft had issued a clarification, that Media Player wouldn't be in the default installation, but you would be able to download it from Microsoft if you wanted it. That "clarificatin" implied that that there would be a "small fee" for MP for people with the "Basic" Win8, but it would be free for those who had the "Premium" version. Some may have been confused since at that time it was unknown how many versions there would be. A later rumor was that there might be a charge for MP if you "upgraded" an existing computer from WinXP, but no charge if you upgraded from Vista to Win8 of the proper version, suggesting that the first clarification applied only to OEM versions (new machines with Win8 preinstalled). Since all this happened while the beta versions were still out, all or none of it may be the case now that Win8 is formally released, but of course the clarifications of the clarifications will be clarified soon, and Microsoft surely will make it all clear. I hope that's all clearly understood, but if any of you think you've figured it out please post an explanation here for the rest of us. John |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 01 Nov 12 - 11:16 PM What news is there regarding Win 8's suitability for serious PC & Laptop Audio applications running Recording & Sequencing / Midi DAWS ??? and 'Pro' level Soundcards & USB Audio interfaces ??? XP & Win 7 are proven stable & reliable for most 'industry standard' digital music equipment & music software... |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 01 Nov 12 - 11:42 PM Google Chrome at 250.00 usd looks like a steal. And at 40 ounce ...nice for the old ladies. Linux (knoppix /gnu) has much to offer. Major corporations have gone "red hat " after major charges from IBM. Sincerely, Garvoyle It is neither a solicitation to buy nor a suggestion to sell. the afore mentioned products. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: JohnInKansas Date: 02 Nov 12 - 05:22 AM By coincidence, a newsletter this morning includes: How to add Windows Media Center to Windows 8 free of charge Did you buy Windows 8 Pro? If so, you're entitled to the Windows Media Center Pack for free--but only for a limited time. By Rick Broida | PC World | 01 November 12 Earlier this year I suggested that because Microsoft was unbundling Windows Media Center from Windows 8, fans of the former should avoid upgrading to the latter. Thankfully, Microsoft plans to charge a reasonable (but still annoying) $9.99 for Windows Media Center. Given how few users actually use the product, I can live with that. Of course, free is always better. And if you have Windows 8 Pro, you can get Windows Media Center free for a limited time. Here's how: 1. Head to Microsoft's Feature Packs page, scroll down a bit, and fill out the short form to request a free product key. 2. Once you've received the e-mail with the key, press Windows-W (i.e. hold down the Windows key and tap W) to bring up the Settings menu, then type add features. 3. Tap or click Add features to Windows 8, then tap/click I already have a product key. 4. Type or paste in your product key, click Next, read every last word of the licensing agreement (kidding!), and then click Add features. Presto! You've got Windows Media Center--after a reboot, of course. Some things never change. This offer is good through January 31, 2013, so you've got time. However, if you don't have the Pro version of Windows 8 and you want WMC, you'll need to pony up $69.99 to get the Windows 8 Pro Pack. Something to think about as you ponder your OS upgrade plans. [end clip] Still not as clear as it might be is whether the Media Center requires that you have Win8 Pro or just costs more if all you have is the Basic version. This article indicates that you must have the Pro version in order to get it, but some earlier reports implied that it would just cost more to put it on the cheap version. Of course if you have to upgrade Basic to Pro that could be described as "it costs more." John |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: dick greenhaus Date: 02 Nov 12 - 06:58 PM Who decided that an operating system was something to be interested in originate? Days past, a computer's operating system took up 2k; appeared on every (floppy)disc and was considered a minor annoyamce in running programs on the 'puter. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: Tootler Date: 02 Nov 12 - 07:05 PM It was MS "we know best how you want to run your computer" mentality that drove me away from Windows. It sounds to me like they're going even further along that road with their notion of "intuitive". If you don't like what MS are doing with Windows or any of the other software they peddle, why stick with them? There are plenty of viable alternatives. Give them a try, you might just find something to suit you. Of course, there will be a learning curve, other software does things differently so it will take a little time to adapt, so give it time. You don't have to abandon Windows immediately. There are ways of running multiple OS's alongside each other. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: Joe Offer Date: 06 Nov 12 - 02:10 AM I bought a Windows 8 computer today for the women's center where I do volunteer work. It took me about ten minutes to figure out how to operate Win 8 - first time I've had a "learning curve" since I got Windows 3.15. It runs quite well once you figure it out, though. I didn't feel the new GUI slowed me down at all. I can still use most of my favorite keyboard shortcuts. Programs and documents opened very quickly, and bootup was quick. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: GUEST,buddhuu sans cookie Date: 06 Nov 12 - 11:20 AM I've had to use Vista, 7 and 8 at the day job. Not keen on any of them. The laptop I bought about 3 or 4 months ago was Win7. I installed Ubuntu Linux (my preferred OS) alongside it at first in order to give Win7 a fair chance. With the release of Ubuntu 12.10 I have completely ditched Windows again. My wife and I are now Windows-free on our own machines, and I only have to use it occasionally at work. Windows 8 in the office is still huge, slow and overwhelmingly proprietary. Better than Vista, but still... meh. I tend to work on my Linux laptop instead of the desktop machine. Free OS, free software, smaller, faster, prettier and more secure than Win. I use my machine for web design, sound and video editing, vector and bitmap graphic design, playing DVDs, Skype... Linux has free applications that do all that and more. First thing I do on every new computer I get is install Ubuntu. In future I won't even bother trialing whatever Windows version comes with the machine. I'll simply replace it straight away. Ubuntu.com homepage YMMV. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: Tootler Date: 06 Nov 12 - 11:35 AM I tend to work on my Linux laptop instead of the desktop machine. Free OS, free software, smaller, faster, prettier and more secure than Win. I use my machine for web design, sound and video editing, vector and bitmap graphic design, playing DVDs, Skype... Linux has free applications that do all that and more. Absolutely. I use Linux Mint. I've put it on my Wife's machine to replace Vista because I was fed up of trying to keep it going. She was not happy, especially as, in spite of my efforts, I lost a lot of her contacts and bookmarks. In Linux you simply backup the browser profile and everything is there. When you update the OS or get a new computer you simply copy the backed up profile into the profile folder and all your data is there. Not the case with Windows. The user data does not seem to be stored in the profile but elsewhere. Crazy! |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: Joe Offer Date: 06 Nov 12 - 09:45 PM I also bought a Samsumg Chromebook from Amazon for $250, and it arrived today. So far, I'm pleased. I'm not thrilled with "touchpads," but my Microsoft wireless mouse worked perfectly - didn't even need to search for a driver. One thing - I haven't found a "delete" key yet. I have to move a space forward and then use "backspace." Oh - let me say something else in favor of Windows 8. I have Toshiba photocopy machine networked as a printer for the Women's Center. It was a bit of a hassle to install the networked printer on our Windows 7 computer, and I expected a worse hassle installing it on the new computer because I had forgotten the process. I went to install the copier as a printer on the Windows 8 computer, and found it had already been installed in the setup process. I had an old Canon 210 multifunction machine attached to the computer for color printing and scanning, and that machine didn't install. It and many other old machines will work in Windows 7 and 8 on 32-bit systems, but not on the 64-bit systems that have been common for the last three or four years. But I sure was impressed how Windows 8 installed the copy machine as a printer so easily. -Joe- -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: JohnInKansas Date: 10 Nov 12 - 01:16 AM About 2 weeks to the day after the formal release of Win8 for public sale, Microsoft has announced the first "Critical" Patch for it. Some of the "reporters" seem astonished, but none of the ones I've seen have a very good description of precisely what is being patched. It has been fairly common for people to take a while to try out new things before proceding to setup of their automatic updates and possibly for some to get around to getting antimalware in place and set up properly. THIS IS NOT A GOOD IDEA, and release of a significant patch so soon after release is just a good demonstration of why. Just remember that your "new" OS probably was installed on your "new" machine several months ago. Microsoft releases new patches monthly, on a schedule, and "Patch Tuesday" this month happens to come soon after the release for sale. Machines being sold now likely were built some time ago, and it's unlikely that merchants have gone through their stock or done point of sale setup required to make sure everything is up to date when it goes out the door. Just don't procrastinate about hooking up for automatic updates if you have something new - (on Win8, that's assuming you can find the Microsoft Update button, of course; but you need to ask someone if you have trouble with that). And don't put off getting AV in place, even if you just use Microsoft's stuff temporarily while you arrange for something more sophisticated if that's your plan. John |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: kendall Date: 10 Nov 12 - 08:27 AM I just bought a new PC with Windows 7 and it is working just fine. My computer Guru says stay away from Windows 8, it sucks. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: JohnInKansas Date: 11 Nov 12 - 02:54 PM I haven't checked it out, but a recent article says that Microsoft intends to keep support for Win7 until 2020. Since I may not last that long, I think I'll stick with it for a while. I would recommend that anyone still using Vista should probably look at Win7 whenever any change is needed, as it does do lots of things better that the Vista mistake. WinXP is still considered better than Vista by many, but it's not well supported even now. For those who only use a computer for web stuff (mostly "social interaction") and very light production, Win8 may be a good choice, now or as soon as more usage reports are in. With the recent "improvements(?)" in productivity programs (i.e. Office) that may be about the only thing one can do with a "computer" fairly soon, so I guess I'll still have to watch what's going on. Pending things also to watch: a.) It's difficult - or very expensive - to find a new desktop equipped with more than 6 GB RAM. I got "insufficient memory" messages frequently at that level, but then found that 8 GB, where I'm running now, is the maximum my newest machine can install. Lots of others can't be kicked up above what comes with them. Some lowest priced machines have only 3 GB out of the box, and can't take any increase. Machines most readily available now are not keeping up with the file/system bloat we've all noticed. b.) NTFS formatted HDs (the recommended best available for Windows) can't keep up with management of the larger file sizes and numbers of files many people now add, move, edit and delete in the process of daily productive work on available larger HDs. So far as I've seen there's no confirmable loss of files (although some suspected), but lots of "crashes." Most complaints come from PhotoShop users, and that program set is sort of a notorious space hog, but I don't use the big version and still get lots of balks. There's a lot less recognition of user input by the builders than with previous systems/hardware, and the "social solutions" they're trying to substitute simply don't work well enough to be very useful. John |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: JohnInKansas Date: 13 Nov 12 - 03:59 AM Curious news item in the Business section: Microsoft's Windows chief Sinofsky steps down < Reuters 12 November 2012 < Microsoft said the head of its flagship Windows division and the driving force behind Windows 8, Steven Sinofsky, will be leaving the company with immediate effect, shortly after the software giant launched the Surface tablet. < Sinofsky, who presented at the launch of the Windows 8 operating system in New York City last month, will be succeeded by Julie Larson-Green, who will head the Windows hardware and software division, the company said in a statement. < Tami Reller will remain chief financial officer and chief marketing officer and will assume responsibility for the business of Windows. < Both executives will report directly to Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer, Microsoft said. < The company gave no reason for Sinofsky's departure. < At the launch event in October, Sinofsky and his team showed off a range of devices running Windows 8 from PC makers such as Lenovo Group Ltd and Acer Inc, but devoted most of their energy to the second half of the presentation and the Surface tablet, the first computer Microsoft has made itself. < Gartner analyst Carolina Milanesi said the departure seemed sudden and it was odd that there was no handover period. < "Many link this to the modest sales of Surface but it is hard to think it all boils down to that," she said. < While there was a lot riding on Surface, the departure may have more to do with the kind of change that Surface signified in the Microsoft business model towards hardware, Milanesi said. Just like the purge of the Vista crew started ... Probably doesn't mean anything ... ... (?) Wonder what they discovered? ... ...(??) John |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: Stanron Date: 14 Nov 12 - 03:49 PM After reading the post by buddhuu I did a dual boot instal of Ubuntu. It will take some getting used to but I like it. I also like the independence from Microsoft. It is a bit on the slow side but I might one day get rid of windows altogether. Perhaps that will speed things up. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: JohnInKansas Date: 19 Nov 12 - 04:04 PM Latest news on Win8 sales are rather vague, with most of the comments, including those from Microsoft, being in Tweet mode – an adspeak headline that says it will tell you something with following text that doesn't actually say much of anything. A report from Extreme Tech addresses the question of Has the Windows 8 launch been a success or not? with no clear conclusions, but the article does offer comments on what sort of reporting is available and why it's still not clear how rapidly and how widely Win8 may use may be spreading. The article touches only on how well the Win8 new toys are selling, with no content relative to how useful new buyers are finding it, but may be of interest to some with an interest in the business side of stuff. SECOND SUBJECT: For those with, or considering, Win8, PC Advisor offers a "techish quickie" article on How to Shut Down Win8 More Quickly. Without discussing how important it might be to be able to shut down Win8 quickly, I'll observe that the article tells how to create a shortcut to do something in/with Win8 that could have applications elsewhere later, if new users learn how now. (Additional thought may be needed to figure out what other things can be done with the method given.) The more significant help from this last link may be the links at the bottom of the article that claim to lead you to some other "sources of how to" information (and some sidebar links to similar stuff for Win7 helpers in the sidebar), for those who may be curious enough to do a little exploring. While you can "find anything" on the web, knowing a trustworthy place to find what you want to know is more difficult, and exploring a bit while something new is still interesting can be helpful later – sometimes. John |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: voyager Date: 20 Nov 12 - 01:01 PM Joe - There's a great folk ballad in the making here - Every Other MS-OS is doomed Let's Not Forget the Good DOS Days voyager |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Nov 12 - 02:47 PM Gee, Voyager, I didn't know about Olivia Wilde and Windows 7. Maybe I'll keep my Win 7 and forego the $15 upgrade to Win 8. My boss the nun was complaining yesterday about the Win 8 computer I bought for another employee. The employee likes it just fine, but The Boss wants immediate gratification. I haven't found Solitaire on the Win 8 computer yet. If I can make it easier for The Boss to find, that will make her much happier. It appeas that there is a very nice selection of Win 8 games. Win 8 has one unexpected advantage - our college interns tend to take over all the computers in the office, and the employees and The Boss are too nice to push them aside when they need their computers. The interns don't know Windows 8 and haven't crossed the 15-minute learning curve, so they leave the Win 8 computer alone (which is why The Boss wants to use it). So, all I have to do is teach The Boss to use Win 8, and all will be well. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Windows 8 - reviews of general release From: Joe Offer Date: 31 Jan 13 - 11:09 PM Well, last night I took the plunge and bought a Win 8 upgrade for my Win 7 computer. It cost me only $14.99 (today was the cutoff for that), plus another $15 for a backup CD. But now I'm having second thoughts. Windows 7 is working so well for me - do I really want to go through the hassle of switching to Windows 8 and getting everything to work under the new operating system? I guess I should. No doubt we'll be buying new computers at work over the next couple years, and it will be helpful for me to know how to use Windows 8. Later....so, I installed Windows 8, and I really like it. The installer transferred all my programs and settings nicely, with a minimum of hassle. -Joe- |
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