Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?

Subject: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: Rozza
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 03:01 PM

Just watched the Unthanks programme about Winter traditions. I was interested to hear "Swaledale" sung at the carol session at Dungworth. Coincidently, a friend I spoke to today mentioned it being sung at Ecclesfield. Anyone know when this song started to be included? I remember it being sung at Sheffield Ramblers' singsongs in the 1970s, but not with the carols in those days.

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: r.padgett
Date: 25 Dec 12 - 04:15 AM

Hi Rozza

Have a look at www.yorkshirefolksong.net I think the provenance is there

from memory you would be correct in saying it is not a Carol from Sheffield but was a great song for the area which has become part of the Carolling Tradition

Sheffield Ramblers, now can you tell me did you have a song book?
Looking for Yorkshire songs of course and earliest "Barnsley Anthem" references? what songs did you sing?

Ray

pm me if need be

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Dec 12 - 11:28 AM

Thanks Ray. I'll have a look at the Garland site. I don't have a Rambler,s songbook but I could send you a list of the songs they sang when I recorded them.

Rory

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: Rozza
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 10:20 AM

I'd be interested to know who first introduced "Swaledale" and at which session? Dungworth? Ecclesfield? Is it sung at other session too?

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: r.padgett
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 12:43 PM

Hy Rory, pleased to receive any info on Yorkshire songs ~ a list of what was sung would be very interesting

The Barnsley Anthem for example is very elusive and sung quite widely to a German tune from the looks and may have had some connection with travelling German musicians probably early 1900s (or not!!)

Re Swaledale ~ Mr Gardham may be able to enlighten on this further from the YG provenance

Ray

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 01:05 PM

I'm trying not to get involved involved with this, not until I can lay my hands on the evidence at any rate.

However, searching around the arid wasteland that used to be my brain, I seem to remember being told that it was introduced to Dungworth by a former organist, who had originally come from up Swaledale way.

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: r.padgett
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 04:02 AM

Please do Fred, always interested in the provenance of songs

Ray

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: Rozza
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 04:51 AM

So, it may have started at Dungworth? Also now sung at Ecclesfield, I gather. It would be interesting to find out the current local repertoire of each venue. There used to be quite a difference between them years ago. Perhaps the popularity of the singing has led to a degree of standardisation? A project for next year, perhaps.

Rory

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 08:45 AM

Probably due not so much to the popularity of the singing as to transport improvements in those parts. You wouldn't have to go back very far, to the days when few people had cars in fact, to find a time when they more or less had to limit themselves to their local carol sing.

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: r.padgett
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 01:04 PM

This is a great idea for information finding!

I know that there are organists and avid Carollers that frequent perhaps one pub (such as Dungworth) or Oughtibridge and or Stocksbridge pubs

If anyone falls into this category, why not make a note of the songs sung! regularly and occasionaly over Christmas?

Of course this then opens up problems regarding tunes and repetitions to choruses for example

Ray

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: GUEST,Folkiedave
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 10:18 PM

The song was learnt by Sheffield ramblers in Muker, probably from a park Warden or ranger.

When David Smith started playing at Dungworth he brought friends from other sessions he played at including one Albert Broadhead . One Sunday at the carols David asked Albert to contribute a song, and that was his favourite so that was what he sang.

In the "English Winter" documentary it is sung by Neil Henderson, who used to lead the singing but suffered a stroke a few years ago.

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: GUEST,Folkiedave
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 10:20 PM

I should have added, it isn't a carol of course. By any definition.

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: Rozza
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 10:50 AM

That's great, Dave. Thanks: question answered. I sort of guessed there could be a Sheffield Ramblers connection. I recorded Bernard, Albert's brother singing it at a Ramblers' singsong at the Brown Cow in the Wicker in May 1970. They also mentioned, but unfortunately didn't sing, another "Swaledale" song, which they called "Extension", including the line "the extension of Swaledale is thirty long miles" or something like that.Ring any bells?

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 12:00 PM

I've just been looking in Ian Russell's booklet 'Hark, Hark! What News' which accompanies the Village Carols CD of the same name recorded at Dungworth; there are more details on the Village Carols website, including a downloadable PDF of the booklet.

Ian Russell confirms the story given above about David Smith inviting Albert Broadhead to sing a solo at the Royal, and Albert choosing 'Swaledale' which he and his brother, Bernard had learned at Keld on their rambling excursions from a friend of theirs, Edgar Tissiman, a National Park Warden. The Broadhead brothers had sung it for years at the Saturday night singsongs held at the Three Merry Lads in Lodge Moor in the company of a remarkable group of singers whom I would love to have heard singing together. The booklet contains a photograph of Albert singing at the Royal in 1992 aged 87.

The index to the booklet mentions the other Swaledale song 'The Ballad of Swaledale', whose chorus begins:-

"Beautiful Swaledale, land of rest,
Beautiful Swaledale, I love thee the best."

Bradfordian requested the lyrics for this in a Mudcat thread 10 years ago, but he never got a full answer, so I hope somebody can track it down now. See Another Swaledale Song.

Matthew

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 01:23 PM

I've put up a post about that song in Bradfordian's thread.

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: Rozza
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 06:40 PM

Thanks Matthew, that's great.Good old Albert. I was lucky enough to sit in and sing at some of the Saturday night sessions you mention, but at the time they were in the Sportsman at Lodge Moor. I think they later had to move again when the pub was re-furbished and went to the Bell Hagg.

Rory

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: r.padgett
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 04:04 AM

All good stuff thanks to all!

Ray

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: Rozza
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 05:12 AM

Thanks Mick, I should have thought of looking in "Songs of the Ridings".

Rory

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 07:34 PM

SWALEDALE written by JOHN REYNOLDSON who was born in Melbecks 1848 and died 1923.Lived in Swaledale all of his life and was a lead miner then agent for mining company. My granny's uncle John.

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: GUEST,Rowan Elizabeth Burt
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 07:36 PM

Sorry forgot to put my name on Swaledale post.

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: GUEST,Rowan Elizabeth Burt
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 06:57 AM

According to information passed down,from my grandmother, great aunt and then my mother, Swaledale was written to the music of a hymn by Ira D Sankey. So could have be some plagiarism by uncle JOHN REYNOLDSON.As I am not musical myself and there are over 1,200 Sankey hymns, I don't think I will discover if that was the case. It is definitely not a carol. Still sang in Swaledale at events today.

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: GUEST,Ebor Fiddler
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 12:21 PM

It all depends, of course, on how you define a carol. Originally it was a circle dance, then the same done around a maypole. As such events were community events, the name attached itself to songs sung while doing the dance and eventually to songs sung at these special occasions. Even later, the term "Christmas carol"was defined as songs sung by carolling groups who went round an area at this time. It was the Victorian Middle Classes, who restricted the name to exclude all except religious songs and hymns, as power-hungry vicars stomped on anything lay-led in their parishes.
So, yes, "Swaledale" can legitimately be called a carol.

Pedantry over (for now!)

Chris B.

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 02:56 PM

Hmmm, the plot thickens.

I'm aware of the several 'Swaledale' songs so this might be off the track, but when we recorded Will Noble singing 'Beautiful dale, home of the Swale' he told us he first heard it on the radio being sung by some Swaledale singers. But that might be one of the other 'Swadle' songs. Yon Pennine people will surely set me reet.

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: GUEST,Rowan Elizabeth Burt
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 06:09 AM

Edgar Tissiman park warden always belting out Swaledale in muker pub in 60s and 70s
Loved to perform to hikers and ramblers.

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 04:14 AM

It's them Hikers and Ramblers again Steve, they've a lot to answer for!!

Ray

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: GUEST,Rowan Elizabeth Burt
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 02:44 PM

Laurie Rukin and the Keld Singers 1935. Also, Lower Swaledale singers 1954.Recording made at the Punch Bowl Low Row 1968. See FOLKTRAX ORG.

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: GUEST,Rowan Elizabeth Burt
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 03:40 PM

I was right about Sankey,its a hymn but which?
The first verse of SWALEDALE has been changed since first written either by John Reynoldson himself or by others over the past 100 years, give or take a decade.My grandma would have known all but she died when I was 11 in 1969.I,m off on the hunt for this hymn,could take some time!

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: GUEST,Rowan Elizabeth Burt
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 03:58 PM

Ps, true title of song is Swaledale and not Beautiful dale.

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 04:48 PM

Could somebody please post the first lines of each of the Swa'dle songs so we know which one we're discussing?

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 04:01 AM

I will sing of a place that is dear to my heart,
A place where I always would dwell,
And if you will kindly lend me an ear
A few of its beauties I'll tell
Chorus:- In that beautiful dale, home of the Swale,
How well do I love thee, how well do I love thee?
Beautiful dale, home of the Swale,
Beautiful, beautiful dale.

2
Oh, it's far far away from the noise and the din
Of colliery an' factory an' mill,
From the bustle and stir of town life, shut in
By verdant and radiant hills.

3
And how often as boys have we wandered along
Beside of the river so clear;
The birds never failing to sing their sweet song
And lend a charm to your ear.

4
And if fate ee'er compels me to leave this dear spot
In other lands far away roam,
My earnest wish whatee'er be my lot
Is to end my days here at home.

This is the one posted from The Yorkshire Garland aka Beautiful Dale

Ray

Subject: RE: Origins: Swaledale: a Sheffield Carol?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 15 - 09:01 AM

SWALEDALE.I sing of a place                                                


BEAUTIFUL SWALEDALE. Beautiful Swaledale land of rest