Tune Add: Jesus Christ the Apple Tree from 1805

Subject: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 11:29 AM

A few months ago, Artful Codger asked me to post the music for the song 'Jesus Christ the Appletree,' which was published by choir director Jeremiah Ingalls of Connecticut in the book called 'Christian Harmony.' The date of the book is 1805.

Ingalls' book never sold well, but it is important because he wrote harmonies to the songs. Some of the songs were religious works already in circulation, some he wrote himself, and some were popular tunes of other types.

'The Appletree' was originally the 'Quick March in the Pantomime of Oscar and Malvina.' It's a jolly tune, nothing like the slow version of it I heard on YouTube recently. I can picture a band of folkies having a great time with it.

I'm going to send the MIDI to Joe for posting. Meanwhile, to keep ya'll checking back, here are the lyrics:


Jesus Christ the Apple Tree
The tree of life my soul hath seen
Laden with fruit and always green
The trees of nature fruitless be
Compared with Christ the apple tree

Chorus:
His beauty doth all things excel
By faith I know but ne'er can tell (2x)
The glory which I now can see
In Jesus Christ the apple tree.

For happiness I long have sought
And pleasure dearly I have bought
I missed of all but now I see
'Tis found in Christ the apple tree.

repeat chorus

I'm weary with my former toil
Here I will sit and rest a while
Under the shadow I will be
Of Jesus Christ the apple tree.

repeat chorus

With great delight I'll make my stay,
There's none shall fright my soul away.
Among the sons I see,
there's none like Christ the Appletree

repeat chorus

I'll sit and eat this fruit divine
It cheers my heart like spir'tual wine;
And now this fruit is sweet to me,
That grows on Christ the Appletree

repeat chorus

This fruit does make my soul to thrive
It keeps my dying faith alive
Which makes my soul in haste to be
With Jesus Christ the apple tree

repeat chorus.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 07:37 PM

...and here are the MIDIs:

Tenor: Click to play (joeweb)

Descant: Click to play (joeweb)

Bass: Click to play (joeweb)

Tutti: Click to play (joeweb)

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 12:02 PM

Thanks, Joe.

The dynamics (changes from loud to soft) are from the original. It's in 2/4 time and the key is C.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Artful Codger
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 02:43 PM

Many thanks, leeneia!

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 05:47 PM

You're very welcome. I hope you enjoy playing it.

Since I have the book (Christian Harmony)at home, I've been noting other tunes from it. Some are good, some I pass by because they don't seem like anything special.

The book gives me a real sense of the past, because it is an exact facsimile of the original. It has grayish printing on yellowed paper, and some s's look like f's.

"The Lord of hofts commands,
Th' eternal Father fpoke!"

Fortunately, not much has changed in the world of music notation in the last 207 years.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Artful Codger
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 06:11 PM

leeneia, I've left you a PM, but you'll have to log in to get it.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 08:43 PM

Thank you...for the lyrics and tune.

They are most lovely.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Is there a publisher...and how did you run across/connect to this hymn?

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 09:49 PM

We threaded about this song before but AFAIK this is the first time for the tune. It is unbelievably gorgeous and a challenging sing!

~S~

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Artful Codger
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 12:05 AM

Actually, the Ingalls setting was previously discussed quite a bit in the old thread, including posted MIDIs of two of the three parts by Masato and leeneia:
http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=87750
Sadly, those MIDI links are now broken, though Masato's ABC is still usable.

Tom Malone offered to send a full PDF, but twice never came through. And although leeneia has access to the original book, for some reason she can't send me a scan, and she doesn't ABC. I've been able to reconstitute dots from her MIDIs, but need a few more informational tidbits (repeat markers, dynamics) to make a proper reconstruction. It'd really be nice if someone would just email me a scan of the original score, and let me work it up in ABC so everyone at last will have easy access to the whole thing.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Artful Codger
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 12:20 AM

To Gargoyle: See the old thread for at least two three published sources (two old, one new) and several available recordings (with samples available). Here's an audio clip from a convention: (click). There may be a fuller clip somewhere at BostonSing.org.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 10:27 AM

Hello, Gargoyle. You asked about the book 'Christian Harmony '. I ran across it while browsing the music section of the Kansas City (MO) Public Library.

The reprint of it is Number 22 in a series called 'Earlier American Music'. The series was sponsored by the Music Library Association. I mention that because sometimes a library doesn't bother to give every book in a series its own number. The library takes a shortcut and lumps all the books in the series together.

'Christian Harmony' was written/collected by Jeremiah Ingalls in 1805. The reprint was published by the Da Capo Press of New York in 1981. And Da Capo is or was a subsidiary of Plenum Publishing Corporation, 233 Spring Street, New York NY, 10013.

You might find it in your library or get it on Interlibrary Loan.

The suggested Dewey Decimal number is 783.9'52
Library of Congress: M2116.I5C5
ISBN 0-306-79617-1

Artful Codger: I'll get back to you.

Wysiwig, thanks for your compliment. It's good to hear from you. ment.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 11:35 AM

Hello, Artful. I've looked at your questions in the PM. I think I can answer them from home. If not, I can go to Office Depot and get a scan (I hope.) Keep in mind that we are talking about a tightly-bound book with gray print on yellow paper.

Sad to say, my Dear Husband has retired and no longer has access to sophisticated computers, so I can't just give the book to him and say, "See to it, sweetie."

Anyhow, my music program is Noteworthy Composer. It doesn't offer XML as a Save option.
=============
This shows where the repeat marks are.

The tree of life my soul hath seen
Laden with fruit and always green
The trees of nature fruitless be
Compared with Christ the apple tree

[REPEAT OPEN SIGN] This beauty doth all things excel
By faith I know but ne'er can tell
The glory which I now can see
In Jesus Christ the apple tree. [REPEAT CLOSED SIGN]

The repeat open sign is in measure 9 before its last eighth note. So the repeat starts on a pick-up.

FLASH! I see that it's not "His beauty," it's "This beauty". Everybody go back and change that.

It's true that the part about 'This beauty doth all things excel..." is not specifically marked as a chorus or refrain. But what else could it be? If you don't repeat those words, you have a lot of notes left over.
===========
Dynamics: This shows where the dynamics are written. I'll write out the repeat.


[LIVELY]The tree of life my soul hath seen
Laden with fruit and always green
The trees of nature fruitless be
Compared with Christ the apple tree

[SOFT]This beauty doth all things excel
By faith I know but ne'er can tell
This beauty doth all things excel
By faith I know but ne'er can tell

{LOUD}The glory which I now can see
In Jesus Christ the apple tree.

[SOFT]This beauty doth all things excel
By faith I know but ne'er can tell
This beauty doth all things excel
By faith I know but ne'er can tell

{LOUD}The glory which I now can see
In Jesus Christ the apple tree.

Clef: The middle line, which I think is the melody, was written in the treble clef. It's awful high, going up to the A above the staff. I assumed it was an octave high, although there is nothing to show that. When I dropped it, it eventually produced many high notes on ledger lines, as you noticed. There are three things to say about that:

1. Ingalls (the editor) borrowed the tune from the stage. That part might have been for some brass instrument or a viola which does that sort of thing all the time. In other words, he copied something popular and failed to ask, "Who's going to be able to sing this?"

2. Tenors in his day might have been able to sing higher, either through habit or not getting their vitamins and staying small in size.

3. The first part may have been intended to be sung normally and the latter part (with notes well into the alto range) to be sung countertenor. The 'Introduction to Music' by Ingalls includes the ranges for Tenor or Treble, Counter, and Bass. (Notice he doesn't mention Alto.)

4. When I prepared the MIDI, I used bass clef at the beginning of the second line and changed to treble clef at measure 14. I wanted the MIDI to play in the right octave while avoiding ledger lines.

For the benefit of those not used to church music, I will explain that for centuries, it was common for the melody to be sung by the tenors. The highest part was sung by boy sopranos who contributed a decorative descant. Ingalls must have assumed everybody knew that.

Also, I have seen totally modern music, newly composed and printed, where the tenor line is written up an octave. I suppose it makes it easier to read.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Artful Codger
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 10:15 PM

To leeneia: Thanks for the feedback. I'll see what I can do.

The repeat pattern you've indicated surprises me: I've always heard it with the first, third and fourth couplets repeated separately. As for the second stanza being a chorus, it's often sung with verses paired (one is then either dropped or repeated to complete some pairing). That's why I was curious whether the second stanza was explicitly labelled a chorus. Otherwise, the verse stanzas are greatly eclipsed by the chorus (sung twelve times in total, while each verse is sung only once.) The shape-note songs I'm familiar with seldom do this, but then, Ingalls was writing for a different form of congregational singing, where not everyone (except the lead singers) would necessarily have been working with the music. Thus, the pattern could well have been that a trio would sing the song throughout, with the congregation joining in on the repeats of the "choruses" (whether a fixed chorus or a repetition of every other verse). Someone who has researched the performance norms of pre-shape-note congregational composers like Ingalls, Billings and Read may be able to weigh in here.

The middle line is unquestionably the lead, and I'm sure you're correct that it's written an octave higher than it's intended to be sung, so that your pitching in the MIDIs is right. I was mainly unsure whether it had been written with a treble clef or an alto (C) clef. It's one of those details that isn't preserved in MIDI files.

As for the original pitching, we can only guess (without the Malvina score); Ingalls, writing for voices, wouldn't necessarily have kept the same key, particularly if he was working from memory.

When you say LOUD and SOFT, do you mean f and p, or the actual words (presumably written above each staff)?

If scanning with a scanner/printer isn't feasible, a fallback some people have used is just to photograph the score with a digital camera held far enough from the page that depth of field is sufficiently flattened--this has worked serviceably even with tightly bound volumes. I don't expect you to do it at this point; it may just come in handy for you in the future.

Doesn't Noteworthy support an "Export..." feature? Often, music programs offer MusicXML as an export type rather than as a save type (the idea being that every save option should be very nearly lossless, whereas MusicXML as of yet only supports a notational subset).

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 12:22 PM

Well, whaddya know? When I made the MIDI's above, I forgot the repeat that Ingalls put in for the B part. (I may have left it out on purpose.)

As I wrote above, Ingalls apparently wanted us to sing this:

SOFT]This beauty doth all things excel
By faith I know but ne'er can tell
This beauty doth all things excel
By faith I know but ne'er can tell

{LOUD}The glory which I now can see
In Jesus Christ the apple tree.

[SOFT]This beauty doth all things excel
By faith I know but ne'er can tell
This beauty doth all things excel
By faith I know but ne'er can tell

{LOUD}The glory which I now can see
In Jesus Christ the apple tree.

Gets, tedious, eh what? Especially when you consider that there are six verses. Me, I think it likely that the repeat signs were a mistake made by the printer. This would be the same printer who numbered verses 2-6 as 3-7.

Artful may well be right that the repeat is there so the congregation can get in on the fun, too.

If you want to do it as written, you have to repeat everything from the last eighth note in measure 9 (that's a pick-up note, "This") to the end of the song. That will be very easy to do if you left-click, save the MIDI to a MIDI program, and either copy and paste or insert the repeat signs.

Now for Artful Codger's questions -

1. There are two lines with treble clefs and one bass line. There is no alto clef.

2. It says Lively, Soft and Loud, written above the staff. It doesn't say f or p.

3. My version of Noteworthy doesn't export or use XML. I looked for those terms in Help, and they are not there. If you left click and Save the "tutti" MIDI into Finale, put in the repeat if you wish to play it, and type Lively, Soft and Loud where I said in the post above, then you will have it.

4. There are catters who know how to convert MIDI to ABC. Maybe one of them will come along and do that. That would be nice.

I hope a lot of people get out their instruments or dust off their vocal cords and have fun with this delightful song.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Charmion
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 02:05 PM

I have sung this in a five-part choral arrangement. Very pretty, and quite challenging because it demanded substantial control on long, rising lines.

Of course, the Anglican choir master for whom I sang this wanted it very legato and terribly, terribly pure and white in tone -- i.e., neither brisk nor rousing. That might account for the strain I felt when singing it.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Artful Codger
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 02:46 PM

Thanks for the reminder: I have midi2abc, and can use that to facilitate the reconstruction.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 11:37 AM

Hi, Charmion. There may be several tunes for this song in circulation. When I went to YouTube to see what the common man was doing with it, I found a bewildering variety of Appletree pieces. The version your choir sang may have been a different tune.

I did listen for a while to a video where some baritone sang the same words to a slow and sentimental tune with one awfully high note in it. I wonder if that's the tune your choir had to sing. "Sappy" comes to mind, actually.

Jeremiah Ingalls' book, 'Christian Harmony,' may be important in terms of music history, because he used popular tunes and wrote harmonies for them, but it didn't sell many copies. It remains hard to find today. I'm not surprised that few (if any) people are singing his tunes.
=========
Does anybody want to hear an even jollier one, "Lovely Vine"?

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 03:47 PM

Leeneia, a software conversion from MIDI to ABC is no problem, but your dynamics, clefs etc. cannot be contained in a MIDI file, unless you familiarize yourself with the MidiZyx2abc method. You may prefer to describe to us what signs, such as clefs and dynamics, were in the original score.

Yes, the song sounds folky, in a way I would expect from the Salvation Army (founded 60 years later). Also, the harmonisation is more folk-like than academic. But then, many hymns that sound solemn to us have had very profane folk songs for ancestors.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Artful Codger
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 06:02 PM

MP3's of most songs from Ingalls' The Christian Harmony may be found here:
http://www.entish.org/ch/

A more spirited version of "Lovely Vine" may be heard on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhvQfm-iCI8
Score here: http://www.singingalls.org/lovelyvine.htm (with auto-playing MP3 sample)

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Artful Codger
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 06:14 PM

More popular than Ingalls' setting of the "Apple Tree" text is the modern one by Elizabeth Poston; see the other thread I linked above for much more info.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Uz2KTOsuAQ

There's another modern setting (yawn) by Stanford Scriven:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ueA_eXyLI4

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Charmion
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 06:20 PM

The Poston setting was the one I sang. Thanks for the link, Codger.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 11:23 AM

About six weeks have passed since this thread started, and I've had time to do more work and learn something. I learned that I had used the wrong when I said 'alto clef.' The old clef in the 1805 book, the one that looks like a ladder, is called the Counter clef or C clef.

I suspect it was sung an octave lower than written.

Yesterday friends came over to have dinner and play Irish music for St Patrick's Day, and I passed the book around. Everybody was quite interested to see the old print and the archaic notation, and I was pleased.

I have now noted 32 songs from the book in MIDI form. Now what do I do with them?

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Haruo
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 12:03 PM

I think the Ingalls tune is one of the two settings this text received in the 1992 Yale hymnal (A New Hymnal for Colleges and Schools). Might be interesting to compare that edition with the 1805 original. I'll try to dig it out.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Artful Codger
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 04:35 PM

leeneia,
if you wish, you can email the MIDIs to me and I can put them up on Joe's site, then link them here (and in corresponding threads, if they exist). I still mean to convert your JCA MIDIs to ABC and post them here, just haven't gotten around to it yet, though the MIDIs do import well into my ABC notation program—half the battle won.

You weren't mistaken in calling the C-clef the alto clef (aka viola clef). The center of the alto clef identifies middle C, just as the curl of the treble clef identifies the G above middle C. Its usual placement is on the center line of the staff, causing notes to sound seven diatonic intervals (a major seventh) lower than the same positional notes on a treble staff. That's because there's a five diatonic note interval from G to C, and a two diatonic note interval between the clef positioning lines.

Technically it's mistaken to say notes are sung an octave lower than written (as when tenor parts are notated with a treble clef lacking the octave appendage, or guitar parts are written on a treble staff); rather, everything is sung or played precisely as notated, in direct relation to middle C. However, I'm sure that was just an infelicity of expression, and what you meant was that the written notes sound (nearly) an octave lower than on a treble staff.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 11:52 PM

When making the MIDI's, I changed the lines in C clef to treble clef. Why bother with a clef almost no one can read? Now I see that they should be moved down an octave after they have been converted.

This is an exciting project, and I'm glad that you want to have the MIDI's so they can go on the Internet. But what about the lyrics? Some of them go on forever, and some are very dated and negative.
I'm not willing to spend time on bad lyrics just because they appeared in the book. Simply typing lyrics isn't the problem; it's fitting the lyrics to the notes that eats up time.

Well, it's almost eleven o'clock at night. Let me think about that overnight.

Meanwhile, here's a treat for everybody. I just did a Christian Harmony song called 'Celestial Watering,' and then I found a performance of it online, here:

have a listen

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Artful Codger
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 12:30 AM

Personally, I'm unconcerned about the lyrics; I simply thought you wanted to make your MIDIs available. There's a good chance most of the texts will already be available online, through sites like Google Books, Internet Archive and Hymnary.org. If the music is good but the lyrics are uninspired, perhaps someone will match a few of the tunes to more deserving poetry (like drinking songs—considering the many hymn tunes usurped from folk song, a little payback is not amiss).

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Haruo
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 02:57 AM

It's not usurpation, Art. Hymns are folk songs, or at least a fair number of them are, and that includes many whose origins can be known and the authors identified, which is also true of much of the rest of the folk song canon. But by all means "hymn tunes" are available to sing secular, irreligious, even drinking texts to.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Artful Codger
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 06:49 AM

I'll spare you the rebuttal I'm itching to make in order to keep this thread from devolving into diatribes or reviving that senseless debate "what is folk?" Let's just agree to strongly disagree and return to Jeremiah Ingalls.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 11:31 AM

Russian proverb: The morning is wiser than the evening.

I have been sending MIDI's to Joe Offer for several years. I'll get Joe's advice before setting up a new path for my MIDI's.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 12:27 PM

Can somebody please post a link to the score?

"Oscar and Malvina" was a stage work of 1768 with music by William Shield from Newcastle, many of whose pieces were copied and recycled for decades. Some of them were themselves reworkings of existing tunes - the main theme from the overture to "Rosina" was a version of a strathspey called "The Miller's Wedding", and thanks to Shield it became so popular that Thompson adopted it as the tune for "Auld Lang Syne".

It's quite likely that this one predates Shield too. I don't recall this particular tune, though I must have seen it in 18th century manuscript sources. With a usable paper copy or ABC to work from I could find more about it. Shield's music mostly survives in partial forms, rather than complete published scores.

It takes me ages to reconstruct the basic tune (i.e. something I can use as a search key) out of a multi-part hymn arrangement - that isn't an idiom I understand very well and I certainly can't do it from a MIDI version of one.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 01:14 PM

1791, not 1768.

It seems from what I can google that the likely way this tune got to America was via the music printer John Norman of Boston. Anybody know an early American secular source for it?

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 01:38 PM

Or possibly John Norman's brother William. Entry from Sonneck's bibliography of early American music:

Quick march in the pantomime of Oscar and Malvina.

See Musical Repository by W. Norman, II, 6.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Haruo
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 01:19 AM

Checked the 1992 Yale hymnal, and no, both of the tunes there are recent compositions, one by Elizabeth Poston (1967) and the other by Daniel Pinkham (1989).

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 10:38 AM

Joe Offer and I are going to work up a way to get the MIDI's and other information on the Internet. Once that is done, somebody can convert the MIDI's to ABC if they wish. Or perhaps Joe will do it himself - I haven't asked him yet.

It's not going to happen immediately. I have to proofread my versions and I have to help my sister-in-law move. Then it's tax season.

Keep in mind that the beauty of this music is in the harmony or, when present, the counterpoint. It calls for a group of musicians. That's why there are four MIDI's, one for each part and one for the overall sound, posted above.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 11:08 AM

It's crazy to go through MIDI to get to ABC. Any copy in staff notation would be better. If you can't scan it, take a picture of the page taken with the cheapest digital camera you can buy.

MIDI is useless trash as an archival format for tunes.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 11:31 AM

There seems to be no freely downloadable copy of this book on the web.

In fact there are hardly any early hymn books on the web. Seems the publishers have locked them all up as a nice little earner. Why on earth isn't this on CPDL? It's been out of copyright worldwide for 150 years.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 04:11 PM

You don't seem to understand, Jack. If I post a MIDi and somebody wants it in a different key, or a different clef, if they want to write a new part, if they want to hear it faster or slower, they can buy some MIDI software, and they can do it.

I do stuff like that for my friends and my church all the time.

Having an ABC or mp3 file is like buying a statuette. It's a finished product and you can't change it. Having a file & software is like buying a craft kit - you can make things with it.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Artful Codger
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 07:42 PM

Not so, leeneia--ABC can do everything you've mentioned either through facilities of ABC programs (most of them FREE) or by tweaking a line or two. They're easily modified (without requiring special software), and they retain all aspects of music notation (crucial for printing scores), which MIDIs do not.

It's because ABCs are so flexible, while retaining all notation artifacts, and can be posted as simple, concise text, that I like to use ABC. Even better if one has both--MIDIs for ease of sampling, ABCs for generating scores and customizing. Of course, if you have the ABC, you can always generate a MIDI, in whatever key you want.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 07:56 PM

It's the other way round. You can transpose an ABC file or change the clef for staff notation generated from it in seconds, using free software. Or generate a MIDI file from it with a few mouse clicks. (I have about a thousand MIDI files on my site, all of them generated from ABC).   Whereas going the other way is far more difficult and usually loses important information.

I've often written extra parts for music notated in ABC. I have no idea how to do that with MIDI - I imagine it needs a MIDI keyboard, which I don't have. I have no software that can modify MIDI files in any way, except maybe Audacity, which has a horrible user interface that life's too short to learn. I'm not going to pay to do it.

mp3 is completely different, it's a recording format, not a notation.

Now can somebody else tell me where to find some notation for this piece, since leeneia obviously isn't going to let us see it? Staff notation, sol-fa or ABC are all okay.

I find this refusal to share long-out-of-copyright material really bizarre.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Haruo
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 02:44 AM

I appear to have stumbled upon an opportunity to acquire a copy of the Ingalls reprint for $5 plus shipping, not sure how long it'll take to actually get it, but once I have it I'll certainly scan and post "JC the Appletree from 1805". If this is the tune you're wanting to see, I'll show it to you once I have it.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 05:21 AM

Thanks Haruo - I'll put it into ABC once I get to see it.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Artful Codger
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 05:41 AM

Jack: Patience, grasshopper! I'll be reconstructing the score from leeneia's transcriptions and her additional information (the stuff that MIDIs don't retain)--all in ABC.

Haruo: When that happens, can you email me a scan as well? PM for addy.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 06:23 AM

You can't reconstruct it from the MIDIs. MIDI already throws away too much information in the score (slurs, phrasemarks, gracenotes, barring, repeat structures). You'll only have leeneia's word that she's told you about what's missing, and given her attitude, I imagine "nobody needs to know that" will mean a lot gets left out.

What is the problem with simply taking a photo of the page? The old advertising image on this page on my website

http://www.campin.me.uk/Music/MouthFlutina/

was taken from a book using available light and a digital camera I bought in a charity shop for 3 pounds, edited with free software on an old Mac I got for free. It isn't pro quality but its resolution is plenty enough for a hymnbook score.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:26 AM

Haruo, I certainly hope you obtain that $5 copy of 'Christian Harmony." That will be a fine addition to your collection. Somebody told me that there are only 90+ copies of the book in America's libraries.

But let me add that there are reasons why this book was not a hit in its day and still isn't being used. For example, I'm looking at a tune called 'Newfound Hills' on page 68. Both the top part (presumably a descant) and the second line go up to the G at the top of the staff. That's too high for most people. Maybe the second line is supposed to be down an octave, but why doesn't the book say so?

Jeremiah Ingalls edited the book and may have composed some of it, but he was a farmer and cooper by trade. The book is naive. (There are no gracenotes, slurs and phrasemarks.)Some of the music seems uninteresting and many of the lyrics seem sententious.   However, there are other pieces which I consider worth saving, but more to play the music on instruments than to sing them. For example, can you imagine trying to get this past today's junior choir?

As shepherds in Jewry were guarding their sheep
promisc'ously seated, estranged from sleep,
an angel from heaven presented to view
and thus he accosted the trembling few:
yada yada yada

Still,a few seem actually worth reviving, and so I'm happy about your five-dollar book.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:29 AM

I just sent an email to the admin for the website for Ingalls's "Christian Harmony".

http://www.singingalls.org/TCH%201805%20Online.htm

I wrote:

I'd have thought that for a book that's been out of copyright for 150 years, it shouldn't be a problem getting a straightforward scan of the original. No editing, no parsing, just the page images, as with thousands of other books of the period, many of them much rarer.

I can't find one anywhere.

Have you got one?

I am not optimistic about getting an answer.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Haruo
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 12:03 PM

Personally, I think "promisc'ously seated" is a wondrous text ;-) especially for junior highers.

Just to be clear, the $5 book is a recent facsimile reprint, not an original 1805 printing. A friend of mine is trying to sell off the bulk of his 700+ hymnals before he dies; if I were well-heeled I'd buy the lot from him, but in my straitened circumstances the best I could do was offer to take the Ingalls and the Wyeth (also a reprint).

Jack and Artful, when I get the book I'll scan the page in question and place it in one of my online repositories (probably here) and post a link here so anyone who wants a copy can get their own without needing to give me their email or anything.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:06 PM

I bet the facsimile is the same book I'm enjoying. Published by the da Capo Press under the sponsorship of the Music Library Association. It's well worth the money, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Haruo
Date: 07 Apr 13 - 01:06 AM

I am in receipt of the books, and no, the Ingalls is not a facsimile. Nor is it an original (too bad!). It is, instead, the completely reset 2005 edition,

The "Connexion" and Jeremiah Ingalls Society Bicentennial Edition of
۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞
THE
Christian Harmony ;
OR,
SONGSTER'S COMPANION.
========================================
By JEREMIAH INGALLS.
========================================
Praise ye the Lord. Sing unto the Lord a New Song, and his Praise in the congregation of saints.
For the Lord taketh pleasure in his people : He will beautify the meek with salvation......PSALM clxix
♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨♨
ℙublished according to Act of Congress.

---

---

EXETER, NEWHAMPSHIRE :
PRINTED BY HENRY RANLET, FOR THE COMPILER.
1805.
۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞۞
Published for the Ingalls Bicentennial Singing in Newbury BT, July 23^rd 2005.
Edited in 4-shape notation by Thomas B. Malone
I should be able to scan and post "Appletree" on Wed. or Thur. of this coming week. I trust Mr. Malone will not seek to have me jailed or (further)impoverished. He does hold copyright in this edition.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Apr 13 - 08:32 AM

True, he does not hold copyright. Copyright exists to reward 'creative effort,' and merely reprinting what someone else composed is not creative effort. In addition, those who composed these songs before 1805 have lost their copyright because so much time has passed.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: JC the Appletree from 1805
From: Haruo
Date: 07 Apr 13 - 10:46 AM

No, leeneia, he does hold copyright in the format of this edition, since he completely reset the music and edited the texts. The copyright notice on the title page reads

"©2005 Thomas B. Malone"

and there is also a notice on p. 2 (at the bottom, below the first of the hymns) that says

"This printed edition ©2005, Thomas B. Malone"

If I were to scan this edition and print my own copies of it and sell them without Mr. Malone's permission, I am quite sure he would have no trouble suing me for damages, whether I did it in the US or the UK.

If I were to scan one of the songs and post it where fellow Mudcatters could access it and use it to satisfy the kinds of curiosity and educational thirst evinced in this thread, I think Mr. Malone might be able to have it deleted and to get me in hot water with the ISP I used to post it, if he wanted to complain to them, though I don't think he would be able to get damages from me if he took me to court, and I highly doubt he's the sort to try to do so. But without his permission, it would definitely still be a violation of his copyright, technically, even if he had no interest in pursuing the issue.

All my opinion of course, and copyright laws do vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction despite the universality of the © symbol.

I agree that even if it were known who had inherited Ingalls' copyrights, there is surely no jurisdiction where they could now be enforced.

Haruo