BS: Muslim men and white girls - again

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Brian May
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 05:25 PM

I remember a few months ago, being practically branded as a racist because I pointed out that the vast majority of 'grooming' of young white girls was being carried out by Muslim men.

I would ask those bleeding heart liberals who support all things minority, how many more cases need to be taken to court before you start to get the idea that, however unpalatable, it's true.

The reason that this has gone on so long is that people like you refuse to see what's in front of your face. You judge by the standards YOU imbue on the perpetrators, not those they actually display.

They treat these poor young girls with utter contempt. They belong to a regime that avows the destruction of our society and then are happy to be supported by our state whilst they take the best and treat everyone as trash.

Don't worry though, it's just another rant from a racist bigot . . . . . . isn't it?

Do you KNOW what your daughters are doing, who they're with? Hmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 05:33 PM

Let's get real here, Brian... What we have all over the world is exploitation of women... It's not confined to just one race, one nationality, one religion or one geographic area... We have a major problem here in the United Sates with sex trafficing...

An American model was led into what she thought was a job interview where two men (not Muslim) raped her, taped it and threatened to put the video all over the internet if she didn't become a prostitute for them... She reluctantly went along with it but came forward and is now a spokesperson for an organization that deals with similar situations...

I mean, men are some pretty messed up people... I don't think it's at all fair to pick out one group over another...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 05:43 PM

"grooming"?

Well, I can guess what you must be referring to, and I think it's disgusting and absolutely awful no matter who is doing it...or to whom. I empathize with your concern over the matter. Perhaps you should write to your political representatives or your local newspapers about it, rather than trying to prove to a few people here on this forum that you are not a racist.

I say this because it's a hopeless task to attempt the latter. Nothing of the sort can ever be proven here. Nothing you can do or say will change the sitation. You'll just get in a lot of acrimonious arguments with a few highly reactive individuals who've already decided they don't like you for some reason. Those arguments will go on and on forever, eating up your time in a really unpleasant fashion, and they will result in lingering feuds that crop up again periodically on numerous other threads. It'll fuck up your day and raise your levels of stress. In short, you might as well pound sand or try to empty the Pacific Ocean with a small bucket.

Meanwhile, the "grooming" of those poor girls will go on just as it did before.

I call that a lose-lose situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 06:18 PM

"White" is a color, often used to refer to humans of primarily European extraction. No human is actually white, unless afflicted with extreme albinism. As an experiment, place your hand on a piece of printer paper (or put the paper where there is no suntan) and see if they are the same color.

"Muslim" is a religion, and adherents to that religion may be of any "pure" or mixed racial background. The largest single ethnic group among Muslims is South Asian, into which I'd put Tamils, Bengalis, Indonesians, Pakistanis and Filipinos, among others. Arab Muslims are generally racially indistinguishable from many South (Spanish and Italian) and Southeast (Balkan, Turkish and Greek) Europeans...and many Israelis.

So, guess what? Those "Muslims" were probably as "white" as you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: olddude
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 06:36 PM

Chinese and Mexican girls are two groups that are terribly exploited by sex traffic trade.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 06:40 PM

anecdotal evidence on a personal level would seem to support brians point as well as the stories in the news,but unless it is shown statistically to be confirmed it may be best to be cautious.it is a shame that the police are so often unable to deal effectively with adults preying on kids whatever ethnic bacground the perpetrators are.
i also think it a shame that the pop culture-eg music videos-lead young girls to think they are there for the use of males.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 06:59 PM

Come to think of it, I was reminded by Dan about this, I think that Asian girls are most likely exploited more by the international sex trade than any other demographic. Eastern European girls would likely be in 2nd place when it comes to that. After that? Probably Latina women. This is more because of longstanding economic and cultural conditions in Asia and Eastern Europe and Latin America than it is because of race...or religious influences. Any culture that treats women as less than equal to men will contribute to the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 07:30 PM

I think that is the point the OP is making Hawk.
The situation in some parts of the UK, where young white girls are abused and trafficed by mainly Pakistani Muslims seems to be based on how these men view white British girls.....simply as sexual comodities, or "easy meat".
The problem was exacerbated by the unwillingness of police,social services, or the judiciary to protect these children.... on the grounds that they may have fallen foul of anti discrimination legislation.

There is no evil which cannot hide behind an agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 07:46 PM

Muslim men, huh? Anyone check whether they were regular mosque attenders? No, really. I'd love to know... It's just that Jimmy Savile, a devout Catholic, never seems to be described as that "Catholic sex predator"...

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: John P
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 11:22 PM

Unless you can prove that ALL Muslim men behave this way, this thread is bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 11:53 PM

Yes, I get what you mean, Akenaton. It's a cultural problem. If people grow up around adults who have a bad attitude toward women...or blacks...or whites...or Asians...or religious people...or atheists...or anything at all really, then they tend to become prejudiced without even realizing it, and that's where the trouble starts. They act out the same negative stuff they saw around them when they were young.

Do any of us grow up completely free of prejudice? I don't think so. But if we are willing to challenge common social conditioning, question the values that were planted in us when we were young, and find a far better way, then we stand a very good chance of becoming a lot less prejudiced as time goes by.

That's what I have tried to do for my whole life. My parents had a number of subtle prejudices, and some not so subtle. So did my society. I've spent a lifetime shedding as many of those as I could detect...but the only way you can detect them is by selfexamination and selfcorrection.

I find that most people are tremendously eager to focus on how evil certain other people are. They engage in witch hunts with furious gusto...they seek out enemies to condemn, but they spend little time working on their own nasty baggage, their own meanness, their own prejudices, their own little verbal and behavioral cruelties inflicted upon others...like so much of the meanness on this forum. Thereby they miss their one real job in life...which is not to fix or judge or condemn other people. It's to make themselves into better people.

That's a lot more work than judging others. But it's the only thing that will get you anywhere useful in the end. The rest just adds to the world's towering burden of pain.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 03:25 AM

In previous discussions the point was often made that it only occurred in the North of England.
The current trial is of people from Oxford and involves London people.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 04:52 AM

Excellent points made here. The problem stems from an execrable attitude towards women, and it's worldwide. I watched a shocking programme two nights ago about Pakistani men in their homeland throwing acid over women who had 'displeased' them, resulting in dreadful disfigurement and pain. Even their birth families would not intervene or give them refuge as it was an 'honour' thing and they'd be shamed. The only answer, and it's a tall order, is to promote and support moves towards equality and respect between the sexes. It isn't only a Muslim thing, or a race thing. Consider the abuse by priests of vulnerable children in Ireland and elsewhere, the maiming of women and children in Rwanda, the 'leaving to die' of female infants in China, and it's always females suffering at the hands of men. I'm old now, but I still feel enormous indignation and anger at the injustices suffered by millions of my sisters around the world. It isn't quite enough LH, although I do admire your views, to concentrate on one's own shortcomings. Governments must act. The Pakistani parliament introduced the death penalty for acid attacks, but is that bit of paper going to radically change their culture? Remains to be seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 05:06 AM

Well put Eliza.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 05:18 AM

There are glimmers of hope however. In Ivory Coast, it used to be customary to genitally mutilate girls of nine or ten, and to forcibly marry them off to old men at the age of about thirteen. My husband tells me that nowadays, women refuse to allow their daughters to be treated like this (HURRAH!) and that women in their twenties (such as his own numerous sisters) have mobile phones, use internet cafes and are therefore au fait with modern ways (HURRAH AGAIN!) They also create small micro-businesses independant of men. (HURRAH A THIRD TIME!) My sister has sent a sizeable money transfer to one of his sisters to start a beauty business of her own. She, like me, is a strong supporter of Women's Rights. In little steps like this attitudes can be 'adjusted'.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 05:23 AM

"it's always females suffering at the hands of men."

I would agree that abuses against women are extremely common, but it's worth remembering that the Catholic Priest abuse scandal was mostly visited upon boys from poor families.

As for unhelpful cultural attitudes, I'm aways wary of the phrases 'traditional' and 'patriarchal', where these two descriptors co-exist, the devaluing, and what can often be routinely culturally tolerated abuses against women, won't be far behind. It's also worth noting in respect of race, that the west has only been out of the dark ages where women's rights and equality are concerned, for a very short amount of time and things could so easily be different here still, had we not become both a wealthy and highly literate nation archaic patriarchal traditions would no doubt still be the order of the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 05:24 AM

Guest. There's no practically about it. In Britain at any rate, the vast majority of paedophiles are white, and the vast majority of them interfere with children of their own families. What's more, the vast majority of Muslims are highly respectable, sexually normal, individuals who place a lrge emphasis on bringing their children up properly.

Paedophilia is a ghastly crime, but everybody in this world should be judged by their own actions, not by those of a few sick sad scumbags.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 05:25 AM

sorry for clumsy sentence, hit post too soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 05:51 AM

Agree to some extent Owen, but a large number of Muslims here in UK still uphold the view that women are in some way inferior to men and should be monitored and controlled. Forced marriages with unmet cousins are very common still. Many men (and not necessarily just Muslims) seem to feel that one's woman should be available at all times for sexual pleasure and should be solely responsible for home chores and childcare. This view may give rise and nurture the idea that any female of any age is just there for the taking and using. It's a philosophy of the basic worthlessness of the female of whatever age or stage of life. I do feel that paedophiles also hold this tenet, that sexual pleasures can justifiably be had by whatever means from powerless victims. It's quite true that here in UK a mere 150 years ago women had hardly any rights or power. But now that we have, we must campaign for our sisters too.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 06:06 AM

"It's quite true that here in UK a mere 150 years ago women had hardly any rights or power. But now that we have, we must campaign for our sisters too."

Absolutely! I'm not arguing for moral relativism in any way - it's right that damaging attitudes about, and abuses against women be critiqued and condemned, wherever they occur.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 08:02 AM

Additionally, I think some responsibility for this mess must be taken by the British people who have allowed "the family" to be undermined and have produced a generation of young people who are rootless and simply cannot cope with life.

Many of the children who are being sexually abuse and prostituted are from broken homes....an easy target for predatory gangs who view them as worthless trash. We have been presented with and accepted a lifestyle which gives us a large measure of personal "freedom", but in many cases little or no sense of responsibility towards our children or society.

Personal "freedom" without resonsibility is simply selfishness of the most degrading kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 08:11 AM

Until The Men of the World rise up, en masse, TOGETHER, to stamp the violence against ALL Women out, forever, things will only get better in very tiny small steps..and those steps are being created by women, more often than not.

I agree with ALL Eliza says...

And this starts not just with Religion, but with men walking into Toy Shops, picking up Bratz Dolls, for instance, and saying "This doll is NOT acceptable, for it is teaching my daughter that she needs to pout and thrust out her chest, dress like a whore and talk incessantly about boys and sex!"

It needs men to go into newsagents and say: "Take DOWN those magazines filled with naked women, for that is teaching our children that this kind of behaviour is acceptable!"

It needs them to go to the guys behind 'GQ' magazine and other such 'Boys Stuff' and tell them the same thing..

Then, they need to march on the Music Industry, the Video Industry, the Computer Games Industry and, of course, the TV and Film industry and tell them to STOP portraying women purely as Sex Objects and little else!

It needs men to understand that women have Bums, Boobs AND Brains and that long after the Bums and Boobs have sagged and dropped, her BRAIN is still as BEAUTIFUL as ever!

It needs men to DEMAND that women on TV are ALLLOWED to LOOK OLD and STILL be taken seriously! To demand an end to Old Men presenting programmes, whilst the women are told to Botox Themselves to Death or lose their jobs!

And of course, it needs men to DEMAND an end to the Unholy Holy Books and Teachers of those Unholy Words, which give permission for some men to treat women like shit, regard them as lower than their camel and view them purely to be 'owned' by them...

Women will NEVER stop this on their own.

The Solution to this HAS to come from The Men themselves....



And please note, that I know there are very many wonderful men out there who are just as angry and pissed off with the behaviour of some of those of their own sex, as women are, but they hold The Key To Change.

The only other way for this to change is for Women to rise to positions of power, and then set about bringing in Draconian Punishment for any man who behaves in this way...but that will take many years, and in many countries it will take a Revolution for women to be able to rise to those positions anyway, such is the Male Dominated Society in some places....

This abuse of women and little girls is not just physical, it is also mental and it is being done by White Men too, Brian....Grow up and look around you, see what images your daughter, grandaughter, friends daughters are absorbing and then ask yourself WHO are the people behind it....

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 08:21 AM

Lizzie:
Women will NEVER stop this on their own.

The Solution to this HAS to come from The Men themselves..

You seem to be arguing that women are inferior as they cannot do this, they need men to do it for them.

I hope I've misunderstood you!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 08:33 AM

Surprisingly enough I agree with most of what Liz says. But there is one sticking point -

The Solution to this HAS to come from The Men themselves....

The solution CANNOT come from 'men' alone it can only come from those in power, regardless of sex, colour or creed. What most people fail to realise is that we are ALL downtrodden by those who run the world - And that is not always politicians BTW, they are often just the mouthpieces.

I absolutely hate the way sex is used to sell product but while the powers are making enough money to stay there, that is how it will be. BTW - It is not just women that are seen as sex objects - Never seen the coke ads? Or the Levis ads? But I will admit that women are used far more. Mind you - how much of that is woman driven? I am always reminded of the Spice Girls in these discussions. Very little talent but mega-hype. Girl Power? Crap. Porn power maybe - but did anyone make themn do it?

Anyway - I know you are going to say that us ordinary people need to rise up and show the powers that we do not like it. But unfortunately there are enough people willing to fit into their demographic patterns and they will continue to pander to whatever sells their product. Sorry, but that is just a fact of life. At least it is at the moment. In time it will change. But it will be a slow process and no amount of screaming, shouting, wailing or hand-wringing will make it happen sooner. It is good old evolution that will do it in the end.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 09:01 AM

Sex is good and to be encouraged. Coercion is bad and should not be. Regrettably it is the wellspring of capitalism as well as many societies. I am not aware of any coercive matriarchies at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 09:03 AM

Akenaton, a very good point. I read about the girl of 13 who fell/jumped to her death after young men had abused her and videoed the sex acts they performed on her. According to several different sources, it's common in schools for teenage girls to be pressured into sending porno-style pics and videos via their phones to lads who then show them around like sick trophies. Parents seem to allow their children (and they are, in spite of physical maturity, still children)to do what they like when they like and with no supervision or guidance. I wonder if the parents themselves had the same kind of lack of care during their own youth. Probably. Young predatory and sexually-aroused men will target easy prey such as the badly-parented badly-supervised and neglected young girls who may be drinking and/or taking drugs. And bullying by other girls adds pressure to conform. The Spice Girls IMV are victims of the same hype and current attitude. Celebrity worship has a lot to answer for. Let's hope as Dave says that things will change.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 09:03 AM

Before anybody lets Ms Cornish sidetrack this any further..

This is about a particular problem where people of one culture see people of other cultures as being inferior. Look at the testimony of the family member women of some of those convicted in the Rochdale and Rotherham cases. They too blame the victims and used the case as showing their culture to be superior to the culture of the victims.

It is not about too many men seeing too many women as objects. it is about people believing women from cultures different to the ones they associate themselves with, (I hesitate to call them Muslims, as that insults Muslims) as being sub human and therefore somehow acceptable as objects.

I don't know what the answer is. If a woman likes to dress up and feel good about herself and if that is appreciated by the men she is in the company of, it has nothing to do with GROLIES or anybody else. This issue will not be addressed by asking women to throw away their nice little red dress and Jimmy Choos and wear a potato sack.   

The fact that, like the late Jake Thackray, I love a good bum on a woman, it makes my day.. Issues such as this don't change my stance. Oh, and if you want to capture the public imagination with a crusade, find a sexy way of marketing it. it is the only way to succeed.

Yes, sex sells. Yes, women find ways of attracting men. Yes, men fall for it. Got fuck all to do with this issue. This is about a very specific evil and shouldn't be trivialised by comparing it to the levers pulled to sell products.   Marketing doesn't invent sex as an aid, it merely uses the existing tool...

I'm reminded of a throwaway line in a Spike Milligan novel where the magistrate fines someone for having sex in a shop doorway. As they leave the dock, they shout, "Fine all you like, you'll never stop fucking in Catford." Quite.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: John P
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 10:33 AM

It seems to me that whether or not someone is a Muslim has very little to do with whether or not they are rapists or sexual abusers in other ways. There are people who act in these evil ways from all cultures and all socio-economic levels. There are good and decent Christians, Muslims, Asians, Africans, Americans, white people and people of color. And there are abusive Christians, Muslims, etc. etc. Since I know a lot more white men than not, the people I come into contact with who target specific groups for rape are mostly white men.

Making this be about Muslims as a group (or Catholic priests, or Asian men, or black gang members, or whatever) is narrowing the definition of the problem, which encourages not looking at the whole situation. It is also, sadly, quite a display of bigotry. All the Muslim men, Asian men, and priests I actually know are decent, loving people who would never consider inflicting themselves on others in this way. As soon as we say "this is done by Muslim men" we are saying that all Muslim men do these things and that is a grave injustice to all the Muslim men who don't behave badly. The problem is that there are people who are willing to rape or otherwise abuse other people, not which ethnicities they are members of.

I think there is something to be said for encouraging governments that promote this type of activity to become more civilized. In the USA, we didn't really get everyone acting better toward black people and women until we forced our government to enact laws making discrimination against these groups illegal, and to generally promote better behavior as a cultural norm. We still have laws against homosexuals, and that is part of the reason that bigotry against homosexuals is still as acceptable as it is. Muslim men who rape girls are guilty as individuals, and the governments that have laws that encourage rapacious behavior are guilty as law-making and enforcing organizations, but whether or not someone is Muslim has very little to do with it.

I would prefer it if we talked about individuals who are rapists and governments who encourage it, rather than about entire nationalities or religions.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 11:42 AM

Akenaton - your first post - thank you, that's exactly what I mean.

I find this kind of behaviour from ANYBODY repugnant, I am married to a wonderful woman and have two cracking daughters and I abhor even the thought that someone could regard them in any way as some form of second-class citizen.

What has galled me for ages is the additional leeway that has been allowed for ethnic groups such as Muslim men in this country (UK) in particular, because 'society' was unwilling to grasp the nettle and see what is real.

Fact is, I am incredibly heartened by the majority of your responses above. I also agree that the solution has to come from ALL men. That said, the radical Muslims seem to be more than happy to denigrate all women, Muslim or not. These 'people' - especially the latest group on trial in Oxford are scum and I am only glad that 'we' are beginning to bring them to book. Their behaviour is outrageous, but is fostered by their belief that these girls don't matter - as human beings, that they're only on this earth to satisfy any lust that they wish to exhibit.

I recommend physical/chemical castration to anyone black, pink, white, brown or any other combination of rainbow colours that is proven to treat human beings, but especially young girls this way.

Perhaps that IS radical, but at least there would be some sanction instead of 3 meals a day, central heating, free medication and a generally easy life paid for by the community that they treat with such contempt.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Brian May
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 11:43 AM

This software is not holding my cookie - sorry for that.

Brian

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 01:43 PM

I don't blame it, frankly.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Brian May
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 05:04 PM

Steve,

Agreed reference Jimmy Savile.

Thanks for applying your incisive and razor-sharp intellect to this discussion - it's made a real difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 06:12 PM

John P is the worst kind of "liberal"....a silencer.
Men of all nationalities are capable of the rape and prostitution of young girls, but these gangs are almost exclusively Pakistani Muslim and their victims white British girls, never Muslim girls!....But this must never be said... according to Mr P.
Common sense tells us that these figures are slightly more than a coincidence, and may be more to do with the cultural attitude of young Muslim men to the female children of "infidels"

The mantra of Mr P and his ilk is to silence truth, whether it be the criminal activity of some cultural minorities, or the horrific sexual health statistics of male homosexuals.

Shhhh.....dont tell the children.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 06:41 PM

I have been to Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Egypt and the UAE and I have to say that the men in this region of the world are so sexually repressed that they have the sexual maturity of a 6-year-old. And you see a lot of older men in positions of power such as clerics with young men/older boys for lovers. These clerics rarely go anywhere where they aren't accompanied by these boys--mostly teens (some done up to look like girls). That is about the only steady sex boys of that age have any hope of getting in the Arab world because they are kept strictly segregated from girls. That's why so many of these guys so willingly become suicide bombers. They are so sexually repressed that they are full of rage and are driven insane by it. What do they blow themselves up for? 72 virgins (houris) in Paradise. They would willingly kill and die for a bit of nookie and the men that manipulate them into these acts are telling them at the same time that sex between a boy and a girl is a sin against Allah. It's ok to fuck your brains out in heaven but not on earth. I know many people here are going to call me a bigot and maybe if I hadn't been there myself I'd do the same. But I've been there.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 08:01 PM

It's the same the whole world over:

There once was a student of John's,
Who wanted to Bugger the swans,
Said the loyal head porter,
Sir, take my daughter,
Them swans is reserved for the Dons.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 11:40 PM

John P wrote:
It seems to me that whether or not someone is a Muslim has very little to do with whether or not they are rapists or sexual abusers in other ways. There are people who act in these evil ways from all cultures and all socio-economic levels. There are good and decent Christians, Muslims, Asians, Africans, Americans, white people and people of color. And there are abusive Christians, Muslims, etc.

"The Other" Brian May wrote:
Fact is, I am incredibly heartened by the majority of your responses above. I also agree that the solution has to come from ALL men. That said, the radical Muslims seem to be more than happy to denigrate all women, Muslim or not. These 'people' - especially the latest group on trial in Oxford are scum and I am only glad that 'we' are beginning to bring them to book. Their behaviour is outrageous, but is fostered by their belief that these girls don't matter - as human beings, that they're only on this earth to satisfy any lust that they wish to exhibit.

Akenatan chimed in:
John P is the worst kind of "liberal"....a silencer.
Men of all nationalities are capable of the rape and prostitution of young girls, but these gangs are almost exclusively Pakistani Muslim and their victims white British girls, never Muslim girls!....But this must never be said... according to Mr P.

It's pretty clear here where the bigotry lies - and it isn't with John P.; Brian and Ake see what they want to see.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 03:00 AM

SRS, Akeneaton's statement that you quote above is factually correct, except that the victims are almost excusively white but not totally.
There have been Sikh and Hindu victims.
He was describing a particular type of crime here in UK.
Can stating a fact, however inflamatory, be bigotry?

BM's statement about the Oxford gang.
They have not been convicted and deny the accusations.
The accusations by the alleged child victims justify his statement if proved true.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 03:24 AM

SRS

Here in England a lot of our old industries are going. There are a lot of families in which there is no tradition of education. The children in these damilies are frequently very deprived and unsophisticated, and vulnerable - very vulnerable.

The education system holds very little for them. For the main part , it is there to reassure them that they are stupid, not university material. That is the Keith Joseph school of tory contribution to the situation. On the other hand these poor children are showered with images of the glamorous consequences of being sexually desirable from the TV.

Now - the present siuation is that a crime which is appearing with sickening regularity before English courts concerns networks of Asian men. Young good looking Asian boys seduce these undervalued children with treats and romantic courtship. The young girls are lured into situations where they are raped, given to older Asian men for sex, blackmailed into submitting to unwanted sexual acts.

This is happening. The reasons it is happening are (as you can see) many and complex. But its got to stop. And men who are offered sex in this fashion must get to understand if they accept it, that they are putting themselves outside of respectable society. Outside of the law. They should in fact, report anyone whom they hear of. doing it.

Calling people bigots who say that this is happening and is unacceptable - well its only playing into the real racists and bigots hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 03:43 AM

Exactly so Al....very well said.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 05:11 AM

The education system holds very little for them. For the main part , it is there to reassure them that they are stupid, not university material. That is the Keith Joseph school of tory contribution to the situation. On the other hand these poor children are showered with images of the glamorous consequences of being sexually desirable from the TV."
My daughter is at uni in Cambridge and no change to the crap she has to navigate from peers and some "teachers" all aspects of society is damaged.It is up to us as parents to educate our children the edu system is a joke and useless just creates frightened slaves and robots in the main, scary stuff.MY kids have been trying to engage teachers for years but most teachers are in the wrong job,not up to it because of their brain handicap.We should be rearing our children flag-less and race-less enabling them to grow emotionally and spiritually without any ridiculous medieval baggage.I grew up on a council estate but have and do mix with the "knighted" class, and filth knows no bounds.The reptilian part of the brain is the problem it drives society.
      The child sex prob in my town has been sickening over the years with the suicides of perpetrators and murder of victims.Some rings were going for decades..all Caucasian.Not a prob specifically to attach to one of the labels it is a human brain prob, just be thankful where we are on the damaged scale and not driven like these sick diseased half life's.Opinion mine 8)

Some Buddhists if i remember correctly roll a stone/pebble on the base of the spine to start the kundalini/spiritual exp.Some Catholic Occultist priests bugger boys of a certain age to do the same,its spiritual rape.These sick bastards filth in turn attracts others who do it just for their own sick personal pleasure. I hope this is not in part what is happening in the Muslim community.

ps no never been dog collar buggerd myself.Know how some minds might work heh love the old tinternet 8)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 05:47 AM

What's this 8 business?
Opinion 8
Internet 8

A weird contribution to the debate - Guest. i doubt the grooming gangs are in search of spiritual enlightenment. Pebbles notwithstanding.

Been a teacher myself. most teachers are good eggs. Just in an impossible situation. Education isn't a sure and certain way to the good life - as it appeared to my generation of parents. the kids can see that.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 06:19 AM

Most teachers are in it for the wrong reasons and the job is a nightmare i agree,should be a vocation.Majority of my Teachers were mildly angry repressed sad individuals.All the problems we have in society including the topic of this thread are as a result of not understanding how our bodies should work.Go research this ,it is never going to go away until we get over ourselves and understand it.Do the work as the Woman above suggests and to do that most ppl need to educate themselves about their brain and what their full potential is. Enlightenment should be understood more and how it is not that big a deal that each of us should attain it in a lifetime,i hate the word myself meaningless in this day and age.Nothing to fear though it should happen naturally then we would not have to protect our kids from animals.
      Re; the animals,very few about that are that diseased, as tragic as this is it is just one of the many symptoms of our failure to understand our bodies/brains.We can train it out of people early and teach them to identify harmful thought patterns.Smileys were because trying to dodge any irrelevant nonsense,but point taken.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 06:26 AM

I agree with John P. Why is the OP making a particular point about the abusers' religion or race? I don't recall Saville being described as a white Roman Catholic pervert.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 06:33 AM

Most teachers (along with most writers, artists, musicians, doctors, plumbers etc) are in it to earn a living. Idealism is a nice by product, but it doesn't always pan out.

Sometimes the most idealistic are the worst practicioners - just the way it rolls.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 06:42 AM

As someone whose natural tendency is to be a "bleeding heart liberals who support all things minority" I don't think that is a true parallel, leveller. If it is the case that any one group shows a higher tendendency to unacceptable behaviour than another (be it Muslim, Roman Catholic clergy or anyone else), then it it perfectly proper to identify it and put pressure on the leaders of that group to distance themselves from it and for them to take action to stress to their followers it is abhorrent. That's not in itself racist/prejudiced. On the other hand to present the information in a way that implies it is widespread amongst Muslims, Catholic priests or whoever, is racist/prejudiced.

In the case of Jimmy Savile there is not the slightest evidence that being a white Roman Catholic is any more relevant than being a DJ, or a BBC-sanctioned entertainer, or any of many other possible groupings. Now I don't have any of the figures necessary to say whether the OP's assertion is correct in saying this is more common with Muslim prepetrators than any other group, but it seems a perfectly reasonable thing to analyse the court records and see if there is any statistical significance to the claim and if so to act upon it.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 06:43 AM

Maybe OP mentioned it out of a sense of public duty. Attention NEEDS to be drawn to it. the public need to made aware. The intending perpertrators need to know that their card is marked.

A cover up is not on.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 06:49 AM

Can stating a fact, however inflamatory, be bigotry?

Yes it can, if the perpetrator misuses context in a deliberately tendentious manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 07:03 AM

Sorry to interrupt yet another 'hatefest'
In context;
At the last count (2110) there were about 3,000,000 Muslims in Britain
If this is a "Muslim" problem why have only less than 200 Muslims nationwide been implicated in legal proceedings, and where does that leave the indigenous population in relation to paedophilia in general (overwhelmingly an indigenous practice) – can this be described as a white, Anglo-Saxon, British, Christian crime and if not, why not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 07:09 AM

The white slave trade here in The UK is almost exclusively Eastern European, and then mainly Albanian nationals owning and running the massage parlours the young women and girls are tied to.

If we bring religious aspects into this debate we have to consider these people class themselves as Muslims. Or coptic Christians or cstholicd. Truth is they are none and neither.   The rapists in this Oxford case on the other hand may well genuinely believe infidels can be abused.

Either way the point is that the law is the law and contrary to the waffle of clerics of all persuasions, morals transcend religion and ignorance of the law is no excuse.   If you don't understand that all people have equal rights and that includes young girls, you are a danger to society and we have prisons to deal with you. Ironically you may find out what it is like to be on the receiving end once you get there.

Comparing cultures isn't helpful. You don't have to be a repressed Pakistani English man to abuse vulnerable people. You just have to be of a mind with opportunities. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 07:16 AM

Same answer as before, Jim. We want to reduce the incidences of this crime. If we can identify any group that can influence that reduction, we should do so. It is not in my mind anything to do with labelling the crime but is all about looking for leaders who can assist in preventing it. So of your categories 'Christian' might have some value, because we could in principle persuade the various leaders to put pressure on their subordinates to do something to reduce it. There are no relevant leaders for 'white' or 'Anglo-Saxon' that I can see. For 'British' you have Parliament in general, so that is more or less covered, at least in theory.

Putting labels on anything has no inherent value. It is how you then use the label that matters, and in particular whether the label enhances your understanding of the issues or makes you ignore aspects of it. So I don't have any issue with saying that this crime is more common amongst the XXX-group than elsewhere; but I have a serious problem if that is taken as we need only address the XXX portion.