An important notice on folk club website-Amberley

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: DebC
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 10:02 AM

I cannot speak for anyone but myself here but I guess I'll chime in...

I have used words on paper (nowadays on my iPad) a couple of times in the past. The most recent was in a house concert where all the attendees were dear friends and it was a new song that wasn't completely, but mostly memorised. I took the risk, because the song was such a good one and I knew these folks would enjoy it. The other time was in a UK folk club where I wanted to commemorate an historical event that happened in the USA 100 years ago on that day and, again I had not completely memorised the song. I felt that both occasions were important enough to use the "crutch" of written lyrics.

For myself as a singer and an interpreter of songs, it is important to me to have my selections completely memorised and internalised to perform them. The song has to become a part of me so I can tell the story. Since I make my living at performing, this is a way of setting my own high standards so that an audience who has paid their hard-earned money to see me gets the best that I can give.

Except for the situations above, I perform all my repertoire from memory. This has also led to some hilarious ad-libs when I have forgotten lyrics. It does happen and we all move on. I find audiences quite forgiving when the memory does fail.

Deb Cowan

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: GUEST,Captainswing
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 03:23 PM

"Experience has now taught me to head for the bar as soon as the fumbling starts..."

Hear, hear!

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: GUEST,roderick warner
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 03:02 PM

I cannot think of one occasion down the years when I've been in a folk club and heard a good performance from one of the sad ring-binder/song-book brigade. Experience has now taught me to head for the bar as soon as the fumbling starts...

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 02:47 PM

I agree with Marje. On one of the other lengthy discussions on this topic there were a lot of suggestions how to memorise songs.

I also think there's a distinction to be made between discreetly using a crib-sheet as an occasional prompt, and relying on reading the substantially the entire song from a book.

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: Marje
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 01:21 PM

Jack, you seem to be making a couple of assumptions:

1. That singers who use books all want to learn songs but don't know how.
2. That no one here is trying to help those who do want to get rid of their books.

This is wrong on both counts. There are a number of singers who simply say, "I can't learn words, it's too difficult," and would rather not perform than attempt give up their word-sheets. And some are just plain lazy.

If they want support, there are various workshops etc available for singers, some of which will discuss the learning of words. And in less formal settings, it's quite common for the more experienced and confident singers (such as some of us here)to give tips and ideas on how to learn to do without crib-sheets, as well as other issues like nerves.

Making it clear that song-books are not welcomed in a club isn't "door-slamming" - it may actually encourage singers to make the effort to learn their songs, and does not preclude offering support and advice for those who want to improve. It's not that different, as someone up there remarked, from expecting guitarists to have their instrument in tune - that, too, takes a bit of effort and skill.

Marje

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 12:28 PM

GSS:
you ask about what have we ever done, well, sunshine, i spend a lot of my time helping people improve either vocally or instrumentally, in fact i consider my greatest success was to teach an autistic lad to play guitar

Great - but I didn't number you among the door-slammers anyway. (I'd expect that EKanne's ballad workshops in Glasgow help people with oral performance skills, too - but she hasn't participated in this thread either).

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: Vic Smith
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 11:49 AM

Stop it, Bren, you're embarrassing me.

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: Vic Smith
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 11:44 AM

So, Vic, does the new regime start this evening?

Well, Bryan, I think that you know me well enough to know how I would deal with this. Let's go back to the OP and remind ourselves what John de Little wrote on the Amberley website. He wrote:-

while everyone is welcome, we certainly appreciate those who are well rehearsed, know their words etc and don't need a music stand with a folder.

I think I would agree with this totally. My interpretation is that John does not say that he is banning the use of word books and music stands but that he is actively discouraging them. You know that this is what I have done at the Lewes Thursday club. As a regular there you know that there have only been two floor acts - a duo and a soloist - who would be concerned with this and I have told them both a] that I feel that would communicate with the audience much better without these props and b] that they would be much more likely to be given a floor spot if I have the numbers to choose from which is normally the case.
Now, you will also know that there are some performers in our area for whom the penny has dropped and they will only turn up and expect to sing (books or no books) on our roughly quarter-yearly free admission Open Nights (one next Thursday - 7 Feb.) These are truly Open Nights - you take pot luck and you get who comes along. If anyone does not like it, they can have their free entrance fee refunded!

My concern is to keep the club going and continuing to attract the sizeable audience that means that we can afford top name quality guests every week - and that means a certain standard and quality from everyone who performs. I read with sadness and horror the experiences that Captainswing wrote in the posting of 30 Jan 13 - 03:33 PM and I don't want that happening in the weekly folk club that I have been involved in running in Lewes since 1968.

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: BrendanB
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 11:36 AM

I second your comments GSS. Vic's (and Tina's) boundless enthusiasm and encouragement have had a hugely positive effect in the South East. If anyone has earned the right to express an opinion on matters such as this it is him. He has nothing to prove to anyone.

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 11:31 AM

By 1994 at least 50% of the floor singers used crib sheets. The vibrancy was gone and the audience was made up largely of people who wanted to perform though the quality of performance had deteriorated greatly.

The sad thing is that you can run a very, very successful folk club that way - successful as in bums on seats and takings on the door (and at the bar).

I just have difficulty imagining standing up in front of people without having worked the song up, and even more difficulty imagining working a song up without memorising the words. I remember once I dried in the middle of reciting Pablo Neruda's wonderful poem "Tonight I can write" & had to get my cribsheet from my chair (fortunately I was sitting in the front row). Once I did Dylan's "No time to think" as a spoken piece with the words in my pocket; I think I sneaked the odd look, although I do know I skipped two verses. Those are my only experiences of using a crib. And once, on the spur of the moment, I did Nick Drake's "Which will", and dried beyond recovery after line 8 (of 16) - what a song to forget! That's my only experience of wishing I'd used a crib.

As for how to encourage people to sing off-book, I would hope that the spell-binding performances good singers can give would inspire people to emulate what they do. The frustration that's coming through in a lot of comments is with the type of folk club where good performances get lost in the noise - everybody gets a number, and everybody gets "a big hand" for having a go.

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 06:37 AM

club organisers have different policies, some allow readers on singers nights some allow them all the time some none of the time, that is the organisers prerogative.
and it has always been thus, many years ago Dave Cooper[catford folk club] refused to let paul simon do a floor spot, that was his prerogative, because he did not like what he did.
jack,
you ask about what have we ever done, well, sunshine, i spend a lot of my time helping people improve either vocally or instrumentally, in fact i consider my greatest success was to teach an autistic lad to play guitar[ many other music teachers would not take him on], he has now got into a music college near Brighton.,
I know that club organisers such as Vic have encouraged singers for over 40 years, the other lewes club runs workshops, will fly has put up guitar tuition videos online, your remarks are out of order.

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 05:38 AM

So, Vic, does the new regime start this evening?

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 06:52 PM

Memorising the piece is the start. You'll be hard pushed to interpret a song as you read it.

You'll be even more pushed to interpret it if you're trying to perform it from memory with no prompts the first time.

People can perform things they know very well, and have known for years, with a book in front of them. It helps if your memory tends to flake out on the odd word or the order of the verses. (Burns songs are generally a bugger to memorize, but quite easy to sing with a bit of help from a sheet of paper; and there is no record of Burns himself ever singing one of his songs from memory or expecting anybody else to - paper was his medium).

This hatefest against a particular physical object, the songbook, is just a mirror image of the British journalist's hatefest against fingers in ears and Aran sweaters. It's lazy, stupid over-generalization that ignores the human reality of what's going on.

Of course there are a lot of lazy fumblers who can't use their song folders effectively and have no idea how to communicate what they've got in front of them. There are also a lot of lazy hacks with tiny perfectly memorized repertoires and a career of boring people rigid that goes on for decades with no change of material. The latter group are likely to be a lot more arrogant and less able to change and grow.

I don't see a single positive suggestion in this thread about how to help people who only songbooks to try anything else. It's quite routine for instrumental instructors to teach by ear and to use clearly defined methods for getting new tunes into people's heads. All you folks who want to slam the door in people's faces - what have you ever done to teach somebody a song from memory, or to show them how to perform what they already know with better fluency?

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: BrendanB
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 05:54 PM

"That's why there are so few folk clubs in the South of England"

I live in Northumberland. In the whole county there are, I believe, two regular folk clubs. I occasionally visit Lewes, a small town in Sussex where there are two folk clubs, both at least as well attended as those in Northumberland. Nutty, you are a long way out in the statement quoted above.   

Sorry about the thread drift but lets aim for accuracy.

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: JHW
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 05:23 PM

Memorising the piece is the start. You'll be hard pushed to interpret a song as you read it.
Having it in the memory you can then experiment and consider the placement and emphasis of words based on your understanding of the song and how you think it should be told.
Then, hopefully, you can remember that preferred rendering and go out and sing. You might still, after a performance think some part wasn't quite how you wanted it, think of an improvement and do it different next time.
A recording, even done at home can be very revealing and help with refinement.

Of course you don't have to bother with any of this. They'll still say 'well sung'.

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 05:09 PM

Of course one Copper family, or one person with a serious memory problem or whatever, doesn't destroy a club. What does destroy things is going from 1% with ringbinders to 50%.It's just like discipline in a school. A teacher can cope with one or two behavioural problems in a class and still teach. When it gets to 50%, the teaching collapses and it's all discipline.

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 04:59 PM

Do you mean Nic Jones?

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: GUEST,Captainswing
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 04:52 PM

Hard cases make bad law.

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 04:45 PM

There are rights and wrongs as with all things but what would the club do if
Nick Jones turned up

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 04:37 PM

"However I rarely forget an tune - I dont need an instrument to accompany me and I never sing sharp or flat. Yet you are arguing that I should be banned from participating in a hobby I have been pursueing for nearly 50 years."
I am not arguing that you should be banned from anything, why dont you read my posts properly.
I said That organisers have always exercised their privilege to decide what singers should go on in THEIR CLUB, You are free to go where you like or even start your own club, there are after all plenty of singers clubs that allow readers.
I am defending the right of any club organiser including Amberley to decide their own policy, whether it be allowing readers or not allowing them.
   I have never suggested you or anyone else should be banned from pursuing your hobby, you pursue your hobby where an organiser decides to put you on,NO ONE has a right to sing anywhere, the club organiser decides that, if you dont like it you go somewhere else, paying an entrance fee does not give you a right to sing.            
singing flat or sharp or with or without an instrument is irrelevant,   
this is about an organiser having the right to decide his own singing policy.
lastly your remarks about so few clubs in the south of england is rubbish.there are quite a lot in the south of england.
I am qualified on this matter better than you, as a full time singer i have copious notes of many clubs

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: GUEST,Captainswing
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 04:16 PM

You can't tape a complete repertoire to a guitar and many people just had a list of song names.

I agree with the comment about tuning and these days there's no excuse with the use of electronic tuners. It should be the expectation that instruments are tuned and ready to go before singers step up to the platform.

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: nutty
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 04:06 PM

People were not so overt then but I know numerous performers who had words taped to their guitars.

Also if singers are expected to remember their words - surely instrumentalists should learn to become adept at tuning their guitars.

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: GUEST,Captainswing
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 03:33 PM

I formed a club in 1985, it became a vibrant, lively and entertaining place. Singers nights were as popular as guest nights (if not more so). Performers worked hard to communicate with the audience and present their material as well as they could. There was as significant number of people who were not performers - they came because they found the evening entertaining. Initially nobody used crib sheets or music stands.

My mistake was in not being assertive enough when the ring files started to creep in. By 1994 at least 50% of the floor singers used crib sheets. The vibrancy was gone and the audience was made up largely of people who wanted to perform though the quality of performance had deteriorated greatly. The quality performers who new their stuff had largely disappeared.

In my experience, people who use crib sheets do not present as communicators and are poor entertainers. Very few develop as performers and seldom wean themselves away from the crib sheets. Their shoddy performances contribute to the commonly held view that folk clubs are are not 'cool'.

On the few occasions I've been to a club since 1994 it's been clear that standards have fallen even further.

It certainly is true that there were no music stands or crib sheets in the 1970s. Why do people have the arrogance to use them now?

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: nutty
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 02:30 PM

You've just contradicted yourself Dick - I didn't feel any need to use words when I started singing in Folk clubs in 1966 but a combination of medical problems and medication has made my memory so unreliable that these days I can rarely get through a full song without use of a prop used ( as I said previously) as discreetly as possible.
For some people it's an age thing -

However I rarely forget an tune - I dont need an instrument to accompany me and I never sing sharp or flat. Yet you are arguing that I should be banned from participating in a hobby I have been pursueing for nearly 50 years

I've never heard such rubbish and the people at Amberley should be ashamed of themselves.
It certainly shows why there are so few folk clubs in the South of England

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 01:20 PM

nutty,
we are striving to maintain a standard[ not perfection], nobody has the right to be able to perform, that right has always been at the discretion of the organiser of the club., and if people are not happy with that they can start their own club, invite their friends and run things their own way, if they want they can allow people to perform with words and turn away people who do not want to read , or who are semi pro or professional.
when i first started singing as a floorsinger, about 1966, i cannot remember anyone ever performing with words, furthermore there was no guarantee of automatically singing.
the effect this had on me was to make sure i did not forget my words , i rehearsed over and over. in fact i still do today.
i taught someone for an hour today. then i practised my banjo for 40 minutes, i practised my concertina for an hour, tonight i will play guitar for an hour and probably pick up the banjo and the concertina again.
why do i do this? i do this because i love playing and singing and i want to feel confident when i do a gig,furthermore i do not feel i can do justice to the songs if i am under rehearsed and i know the best way to do this is by practising,
for the same reason[respect for the songs and music] i do not get pissed or stoned before a gig, because i do not want to make a fool of myself in public.
   that is how i feel , i am too polite to criticise singers with words if i am getting paid for a gig and they are floor singers, but I make a point if there is a singer who is performing without words and who is better than the wordsters, to encourage him to continue the practice of not singing with words.
this is not aimed at you, i have seen you perform and i would include you amongst the few that read from sheets and put in a decent performance.

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: nutty
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 12:14 PM

Surely another aspect to this thread are those singers who fulfill all the criteria about learning the words but who constantly crucify everything they sing by not being able to hold a tune.

To my mind I would far rather listen to and see the former.

But surely if we are striving for perfection then there should be another written rule -

eg. AT THE DISCRETION OF THE MANAGEMENT - ONLY THOSE ARTISTS DEEMED TO HAVE REACHED THE DESIRED LEVEL FOR PERFORMANCE BOTH WITH VOICE AND/OR INSTRUMENT WILL BE INVITED TO PERFORM AT THIS CLUB.

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 08:04 AM

Jack Campin: of course people have always used stands where necessary for recording and broadcasting. We are talking about something else here.I never saw Ewan M singing with a music stand in a folk club.

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: Marje
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 07:59 AM

What's coming through loud and clear here is the need for the ground rules to be obvious to everyone right from the start. Then people, whether performing or just listening, can choose whether this is how they'd like to spend their evening.

The problems seem to creep in when you have a well established club or singaround where reading from books has been rare or unheard-of, and gradually you get more books and song-sheets appearing. It's then very difficult for the club organiser to try to prevent this habit from spreading, because it will look as if he's picking on certain people and trying to discourage them. Organisers are often so keen for support nowadays that they tend to say, "Oh anything goes! Yes, folk, blues, pop - it's all good music! Instruments, yes, of course, anything you like! Keyboard or bass guitar plugged in? Fine! Song books? Well, I don't see why not..." and so it goes, to the point where some of the regulars will slowly melt away and go in search of some music with different parameters and standards.

So there you go - the lesson for new or potential organisers of clubs, sessions or singarounds is this: make it clear to everyone what the purpose and ground rules of your event are to be. You'd do this if you were setting up a painting group, a book group, or a French conversation group, so there's no need to feel apologetic about doing the same for a folk club or music/song session. And well done Amberley for being brave enough to be up-front about this.

Marje

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 07:56 AM

i did start my own session/singaround in preference to a club because I'm a player not a listener and I just like playing the devils advocate now and again

Gerry

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: johncharles
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 07:42 AM

Far worse than those who use crib sheets are those who do learn the words but are unable to sing in tune. The polite applause from polite audiences conspires to keep them "singing"
john

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 07:40 AM

Music stands were unknown on the scene a while ago

Really?

Ewan MacColl

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 07:29 AM

Will Fly wrote"I wanted a session near my home, where I could walk to play, have a few beers, and toddle off home long after closing time - so I started my own!"
Couldn't agree more. I organise a session from time to time like that in my local. And if people turn up and sing off a song-sheet, I don't tear it up and throw it on the fire.It's an anything goes do, and I am fine with whatever turns up. But if I go to see an act in a pub, or a concert hall, or a floor-spot singer in a folk club, I expect them to have made the minimum effort to learn their material.And like Vic Smith, I am fed up with the apologists. Music stands were unknown on the scene a while ago, so what has changed to make them so necessary now?

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: Vic Smith
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 06:26 AM

Earlier in this thread, I quoted and emphasised a sentence written by Bren, my old friend and long ago fellow band member (no music stands). Now I feel the need to reiterate in people's minds whoever Tone or canalwheeler is when s/he writes:-

Isn't it all about whether you want to promote the song, or yourself? If you want to promote the song, then why haven't you learnt it? It is obviously worth it.If you want to promote yourself, does anyone else care?

Bingo! The nail is hit firmly on the head once again! If you love a song enough to want to sing it then learn it so that you can do it justice.

Now to counter the "classical musicians read the words & the dots, why not us." argument:-
An ex-work colleague of mine was a semi-pro member of one of the country's leading classical choirs much in demand to sing with symphony orchestras in studio and concert stage. She used to get me free tickets when the choir sang in Brighton. I once asked her if the choir really needed to hold their books in front of them when they sang. She was amazed at the question. "Of course, we don't! We need to know each piece inside out, back to front - we can sing them in our dreams. Holding the music in front of us is just a convention."
Some of the works that she was talking about were much more complex than the utterly wonderful lyrics and melodies that the tradition gives us.

The traditional singers that I was lucky enough to see and hear live and who inspired me to want to sing all those years ago - the likes of D. Stewart, J. Robertson, P. Tunney, J. Turiff, Blairgowrie Stewarts, G. Hall, W.Scott, F. Jordan etc. etc. - none of them read the words when they were performing. In fact, some of them struggled with basic literacy, but they were all consummate artists. Their standards gave the folk revival something to aspire to.

I have found it depressing reading the comments of the apologists for a shoddy ill-prepared approach that I have found in this thread.

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 05:35 AM

Well, Gerry, if I really wanted a club run along my own preferred lines - then I'd probably start one.

I wanted a session near my home, where I could walk to play, have a few beers, and toddle off home long after closing time - so I started my own!

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 05:17 AM

Good response Will I respect your argument

BTW whats your answer to the transport issue I raised bearing in mind not everyone drives

Gerry

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: banjoman
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 05:13 AM

I really detest music stands/written words at folk clubs ever since the following happened at a club which I helped run_

One of the regulars who actually did write some fairly decent songs turned up one week and was asked to sing the song he had done last week (one of his own which he sang regulary) His reply?
"Sorry I havn't got the words with me"

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 04:57 AM

We will soon be looking on music stands as delightfully old-fashioned totaqlly 1954. Singing while looking at the words on the clever phone is already creeping in. The next big thing will be the spread of people using the phones to play the backing track while reading the words off the phone. And then, joy of joy, we will get to the universal Beyonce mode of performance, when the phone will not only play the backing track but also your vocal which you recorded in the privacy of your own home.

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 04:12 AM

Gerry - there's no discrepancy in my wanting one style of performance in one venue, and another style at another. My session - as Stu has said above - is an opportunity for beginners to start to play, for people to try out a new song, to join in on perhaps unfamiliar material - in short to pick'n mix with each other. In the interests of community and fellowship, anything goes. We can giggle at each others' mistakes, joke about the music folder falling on the floor halfway through a song, and shout happy insults to those noisy beer swillers at the bar who demand "something by Genesis". Not quite domino players, but the next loudest best thing!

That's one venue. A folk club is another and, for me, (particularly on a singers' night) different attitudes kick in. We, as an audience, are expected to sit in respectful silence, listening as is required, to the best efforts of the floor singers. We, in turn, hope to be entertained for the 3 hours or so that we're there - and for which we've probably paid a small sum towards the club's upkeep. I can tolerate, and even sympathise, with perhaps one singer getting up, fiddling with the music stand, shuffling through the song folder, and droning through the song with eyes fixed to the sheet. But a whole evening of this? God preserve us! I'm by no means (to use the old jazz term) a mouldy fig, but I do like a few bangs for my buck.

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 04:01 AM

If you could close your eyes and not be able to tell that a book was being used, I don't think there's a problem. Playing tunes, some people sight-read fluently, others (myself included) play by ear but prefer to have the dots in front of them as a fallback. Similarly with songs - some people like to have a crib to hand in case they dry up, others can sing fluently and expressively from a book (I've never seen this done myself outside Cardiff Singer of the World, but I'll take Jack's word for it). Either way, not a problem.

It's when you can hear the cogs turning - hear them momentarily thinking "that's that line, how does it fit with what I've just sung, OK, how does it go with the next bit, OK, got it" over and over again - that it all gets a bit My Lovely Horse.

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 02:27 AM

Why can classical musicians read the dots and not folkies? Folk clubs are recently invented and are going to have to evolve to survive and get the next generation in they will probably be playing electronic instruments and reading off iPads instead of paper!

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 01:17 AM

rules in my local folk clubs
1 be middle class and over 50
2 get to the pub/club early to make sure you get the best seat and buy an orange juice to sustain through the night
3 do not allow the price of said orange juice spoil your night
4 because you have few friends and only speak rarely to work colleagues when you get the chance to shine hang on like grim death
5 when your turn finally arrives open your a4 folder like an aladdins cave unsure as to what its contents are
6 explain (for the working class latecomers gathering at the back)the nordic word in verse 32
7do not under any circumstances buy a raffle ticket.they are the works of the devil
8on leaving be very aware that although others are ignorant of your talents you are single handedly throuugh your talent and commitment keeping said folk venue alive
9 on the demise of said folk venue due to organisers incompetence at recognising said talent seek immediately new folk venue

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 10:59 PM

Isn't it all about whether you want to promote the song, or yourself?

If you want to promote the song, then why haven't you learnt it? It is obviously worth it.

If you want to promote yourself, does anyone else care?

Tone

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: GUEST,Stuart Reed
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 09:22 PM

Have some sympathy with us aged folkies who are trying desperately to keep the flag flying. We're torn between encouraging everyone and anyone to sing in public while at the same time trying to harvest an audience for the music we love.

In the good old days (Ha!) folk club regulars would turn up every week, whoever was booked - Mike Harding followed by Peter Bellamy, Allan Taylor then Louis Killen and so on.

Nowadays the pros are playing arts centres and civic halls and there are slim pickings for your average club organiser to choose from. Of course, the better folk clubs are still supported loyally by some national treasures (we know who they are) but the gap between such venues is growing ever wider.

Which brings us back to sessions like Will Fly's. Having been there occasionally I concur that his lazy bluesman's contributions are truly dismal, and an excuse to visit the gents but, on the other hand, there are one or two of his pub locals who have begun to pluck up the courage to play a song or two. OK, they have the words in front of them but - with Martin Carthy's dictum, "The worst thing you can do to a song is not sing it" in mind - what would you rather have? An exclusive performers' circle or a participatory evening of music making?

Will's is a small informal affair, in a public bar (but with a generally high standard of musicianship) but what bugs me are those with the dreaded music stands who turn up expecting a floor spot at the bigger clubs or sessions. They'll probably get one song, two if they're lucky, once a month but still have an ego which overrides their responsibility to respect the audience they crave. Learn the song, I say, and if you have shown that commitment you'll be forgiven if you're nervous and stumble over the words. As always with the people who disregard this essential connection between performer and audience, their estimation of themselves is in inverse proportion to their talent.

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: GUEST,Phil
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 08:30 PM

You're right - just because you have memorised a piece will not guarantee anything more than you will know what to sing and play. Skill, talent and effort are required to go further. If you have skill and talent but don't know a piece it will be harder to do anything with it. It's a question of what do you want to achieve. We can all have fun singing from a book but sometimes the circumstances require a little more.

Regards, Phil L

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 08:11 PM

Dear Phil,

You are absolutely great.

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 07:56 PM

It needs to be implanted in your brain and it's rendition almost automatic. When you get to that point you can interpret and express the piece.

Or on the other hand it may simply stay automatic, and not just "almost".

Making such a big deal about memorization ignores the fact that interpretation and expression doesn't happen automatically. You get singers who think memorization is in itself some sort of musical achievement they ought to be applauded for.

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: GUEST,Phil
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 07:46 PM

My feeling is that if you don't know the words or tune off by heart then you don't really know the piece. It needs to be implanted in your brain and it's rendition almost automatic. When you get to that point you can interpret and express the piece.

However, many people just like to sing and play, the finer aesthetics not being important. I don't mind this but prefer not to hear a performer reading words or music.

Regasrds, Phil L

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 07:16 PM

I can't imagine writing a song straight onto paper & then learning it (or not).

Woody Guthrie could:

"Tom Joad" and its composition

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 07:00 PM

I don't write songs much any more, but when I did I hardly ever used to write them down at all - I'd sing a song through several times as I was composing it, so by the time I got to the end I'd know it. I can't imagine writing a song straight onto paper & then learning it (or not).

I think there's a limit to the number of songs anyone can really get inside and deliver well, although obviously some people have higher limits than others. I think some people accumulate a folder-full of songs in the belief that it's a shortcut to a big repertoire; it's not, you just end up with a small repertoire and a folder.

What bugs me is people with a single-figure repertoire all of which they read from a book. And sometimes it really is reading, not singing with support - I've seen someone stop in mid-chorus to turn the page.

"Which makes me now to lament and-
rustle, rustle
-say..."

For short songs, I always think that if you can learn the tune you can learn the words. (And for the big ballads, if you can learn the story you can learn the words. There's no aide-memoire better than knowing what the characters do next.)

Subject: RE: An important notice on folk club website-Amberley
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 06:59 PM

I suspect, 999, that if someone got up in one of these clubs and did a properly practiced (now you know where I'm from) piece, everyone would complain that there was nothing to complain about.