UK Festivals changed

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mo the caller
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 09:21 AM

If anyone is thinking of going to Whiby and doesn't want to bring a tent or van the accomodation is booked well in advance (I reserve next years flat in June when I pay the balance of this years, a lot are kept from year to year.
Some years the festival clashes with the Regatta, so accomodation parking spaces and pubs are extra full. But if you like watching the Red Arrows etc.... This year it is the week earlier.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 09:41 AM

Mo - no offence. I just think the concerts could be shorter at Whitby with a longer set from the headline act.
Faversham festival in Kent now suffers from too many street traders - so instead of reducing the traders they reduced the number of morris sides on H and S grounds - with the result that there were few morris musicians and singers to make up the sessions, and less for the public to watch.
I was disappointed with Sidmouth last year that there was nowhere to eat a pasty never mind have a session down the front. It was a bit like a giant boot fair, and little room for dancing.
FloraG

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 06:06 PM

Flora G - see my earlier message about who to complain to!!
Derek

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 03:09 PM

Has anybody tried Cleckheaton FF - fringe events for musicians and singers, main concerts with headliners, smaller concerts with local talent, Morris sides, Street Theatre - it's got the lot and if you're rea;;y lucky great weather (it's in July)!!!

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 06:52 AM

Been to Clecky many times, inc the 1st one, which on reflection was probably the best.

Plenty venues with allsorts sessions.

Haven't been again for about 4 years as it'd started to go the way I've described above - just a few places for seshes, the very overcrowded Wickham & Commercial for diddleys.

Just got fed up saminess of it all

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,Banjman
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 09:19 AM

Check out Bedale Acoustic Music festival. There is a mixture of 'acoustic music' genres being performed but lots and lots of folk (Bob Fox, Young'uns, Blackbeards TP, Tom & Barbara Brown etc, etc).

3 singaround/ session venues over the weekend and plenty of space around The Big Sheep Little Little Cow Farm where the campsite and some other events are located for impromptu singing and playing.

This is a brand new festival in North Yorkshire just a mile or so off the A1.

BAMfest Website

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 03:58 PM

I spend much of my time in sessions. I usually manage to get to a few workshops, but I find I'm not sufficiently organised or disciplined to get to many of the programmed events. Even if I've highlighted something in the programme, when the time comes and I'm faced with the prospect of packing away my instruments, making my way across town to queue for an hour to get in, the temptation to get another pint and carry on playing is usually too much.

I also recognise the need to contribute financially to the main festival, without which the fringe sessions wouldn't be happening. One year at Sidmouth I totted up what it would have cost to pay on the door for those events I did get to, compared with the cost of the week's season, and it was well under 10%. There has to be a balance between making a reasonable contribution and getting value for money.

Sidmouth's camping passport means I can make a reasonable financial contribution and then only have to pay for the events I get to.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mo the caller
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 08:58 AM

I think the musicians like Howard are contributing to the festival too. Providing a backbone for the sessions that the aspiring musicians go to and try to join in with. As well as atmosphere for those who like to listen.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: selby
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 09:58 AM

For me there remains one issue without people paying for festivals and the organisers of festival talking to the local population there will not be FREE sessions in pubs for people to go to.
Somebody somewhere has to pay to keep festivals going.
Keith

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mo the caller
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 12:20 PM

Those who can - do
Those who can't - pay.

I have no objection to the Morris teams getting a free ticket, so why should I moan about the people who are good enough to want to play in the pub all day doing that free (except what it costs them in drinks, which no doubt adds to the goodwill for the festival.

I'm quite happy to pay for my ticket if I get some good bands and callers to dance to, an occasional concert (not too earsplitting) and a good session.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: selby
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 01:32 PM

The point I am making Mo is no one organised and no one paid there would not be a festival
Keith

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Stanron
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 02:44 PM

selby
I can think of two get togethers over this Easter which are free and mainly for session players. Not everyone wants to listen to others playing or singing all night. Some people want to play or sing themselves. OK someone has to organise these events, and more power to their generous elbows for so doing, but once you take away the business of paying artists to perform you have a win win situation. Those who want to listen can listen without paying for more than their drinks and those who want to play usually have a choice of session types to attend, usually tune sessions or singarounds. In these times of tightened pockets I'd like to see more of these.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 08:18 AM

selby,

As the organiser of one of the sessions only events mentioned above, there's in reality no need whatsoever for anyone participating in informal pub sessions to pay any money, in fact the way I negotiate the gathering & also the weekly session I run locally ensues that attendees have donated refreshments in the form of butties etc by the publicans.

Please qualify why you expect anyone to pay for these events

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: selby
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 08:30 AM

A festival is not a session only event, it is people attaching to the festival. In these financial hard times, if festivals do not get income they will fold. In my opinion they all need financial assistance, turning up when a festival is on and playing although nice for the landlord, nice for the participants and nice for the locals does not help the festival to keep going.
Organised sessions and weekend sessions are a completely different thing,s they are not paying performers who equally without festivals in some instances will suffer.
Keith

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mo the caller
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 09:40 AM

Yes, I saw your point Keith. But my point was that my choice of festivals partly depends on the sessions available.
So the session players are indirectly supporting the festival by bringing in people like me. More so than the expensive 'big names' concert performers that the festival books to attract the people who like to watch them all weekend. And the Morris teams that might attract others.
Room for everyone. (And Whitby sends collectors round to rattle tins at people enjoying the pub music and outdoor displays).

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 09:47 AM

Blaming the inadequacies of festival management on session players in pubs is IMO unjustified.

There's mainstream festivals around which are properly managed & do break even simply because they don't outlay huge sums for guest artistes, marquees, venue hire etc themselves, instead engaging with local amenities & facilities to put on concerts etc for those folk needing to be entertained & just pay on the door

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: selby
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 09:53 AM

Having spent a day at Whitby last year and watching a tin go round very very few put in. in fact as a casual observer a few musicians in a pub we where in where pig ignorant.
Without folk week there would be no pubs welcoming people. I agree there is room for everyone but you have to aid financially or festivals and sessions at festivals or whatever your bent will disappear.
Keith

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 12:08 PM

The other approach (and one we employing for BAMfest) is to ask the pubs that will host the sessions to sponsor the festival ..... seems to be working very well for us.

And the local brewery (Theakstons -lucky us!) is the main festival sponsor too ......... just to make sure we have the whole supply chain contributing.

We will also charge session goers for camping if they want somewhere within handy walking distance of the session venues (as well as performance venues) to stay.

That all seems fair to me!

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 12:11 PM

GUEST,Banjiman,

Yes, you've hit the nail on the head - that's exactly the right way to fund a festival!

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Spectacled Warbler
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 12:22 PM

I go to Whitby mainly for the music sessions, attend maybe half a dozen workshops and one concert, but buy a season ticket because if the festival wasn't there, the sessions wouldn't be.   I get my money's worth of enjoyment and more.

On the other hand, I can understand why it makes sense to other people not to buy tickets if they're not going to official activities, and I think the festival is much more vibrant because those people are there, so am glad they attend.    There's room for all opinions I think.

Joy

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 12:43 PM

The two session fests available to me over Easter (I'm in Manchester UK) are Sheffield and Anglesea. Sheffield has to charge for campervan parking and Anglesea doesn't. It's not Sheffield's fault that they have to charge but as a pensioner on a state pension and savings it's going to have to be Anglesea for me. If the weather improves. My camper needs work before I next sleep in it and this cold weather is getting in the way.

BAM fest looks reasonably priced, the difference between the camping only price and the full ticket is not that much. As I said before, these days money considerations are paramount and if festival organisers follow the economic models of five or six years ago they are going to struggle. Punishing those people who go to play for free seems silly.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 12:52 PM

I'm struggling to understand your point Stanron.

You say BAMfest looks reasonably priced and then are you saying the 'small' price differential between full and camping + session is a good thing or a bad thing?

Full price full festival tickets are £55 and camping + session only (with a free Ceilidh if you like that sort of thing!) are £28.

Both these prices are discounted if you purchase before April 1st.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 12:57 PM

Woops, I must have read the site wrong. Sorry. The camping and session still looks good and compared with many sites the full ticket is affordable.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: selby
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 01:11 PM

Punishing those people who go to play for free seems silly. Stanron Who has suggested punishing these people nobody as far as I am aware,
Keith

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 01:19 PM

We've tried to make it good value ........ our fundraiser has done an amazing job getting sponsorship and advertising revenue from local businesses, they all seem fully behind it. She even managed to get a little help from the town council and a couple of its offshoots.

The local Chamber of Trade chairwoman has joined the committee ...... I think we might even be managing to turn her into a folkie!

We do need support in the form of people buying tickets but mainly to give us a secure base to plan next year. As we are using existing venues (we want it to be part of the town), none of them are very big (150 max) which does limit ticket revenue.

Apparently sponsorship is harder to come by after year one. We'll see .......

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:11 PM

It's not just you selby but in a similar recent thread there seemed to be an attitude that those people who turn up at festivals to play in pubs are freeloading on the festival and should be ashamed of themselves for so doing. You yourself mentioned, with apparent disapprobation, seeing session players not putting money in collection buckets and uncomfortable as it might make me feel I would probably not put money in myself. If I want to watch an event or workshop I will pay. If the festival does not want me, (and not selling camping tickets without also selling concert tickets is telling me that) I will not go. There is quite a few of them. That is why I'm pleased to see the session festivals develop.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:55 PM

Agree with that, although I will put money in tins.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: ripov
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 09:03 PM

some may feel that the boot is on the other foot - that the gathering of musicians to spend a happy few days with their peers is the festival, and that paid entertainers are the intruders.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: ripov
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 09:05 PM

that is not to suggest that things happen on their own. Organisers are still needed and deserve some recognition of their work.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,Hardraw Folk Gathering
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:15 AM

There will be sessions and singarounds all day and right through the night (probably 'til dawn!) at the Green Dragon near Hawes in June during the Hardraw Folk Gathering. No charge to join in - you only buy a ticket if you want to enjoy the 3 main concerts (Young'uns, O'Hooley & Tidow, Pilgrims Way, Flossie etc etc). Info at: www.hardrawfolkgathering.co.uk or email: [e-mail]

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 05:15 AM

There is a session I go to every year at Whitby, amongst others, where I will make a donation to the tin as it goes round. Meanwhile, every night the pub is packed to overflowing with spectators who are no doubt putting good business the way of the pub. You could argue that the pub should be putting money into the tin and not the musicians but who's to quibble? I don't buy a season ticket, have a whole load of fun and can afford a few quid for the organisers by way of a thank you.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 06:19 AM

Going back to Mr Happy's original post, I stopped going to one festival as their "pub sessions" were over-amped live bands with the "audience" not listening but screaming at each other over the noise! I pointed out to one of the organisers that some of wanted to go somewhere we could play ourselves, and he really seemed to think we were odd to suggest such a thing.
At our own festival , we have usually, at least on the first night, asked a group of musicians to go in to kick-start a session. They play purely acoustically, and are told their role is to facilitate the session and involve other players and singers, not to make it a performance by themselves. This was after one year where it seemed no-one wanted to be the first to start, and there were lots of potential spectators sitting around saying "Where's the music?"! On that occasion, 2 of us on the committee just sang a couple of rousing chorus songs, and in a very short time others joined in and within minutes a full-blown session was under way. We have 3 or 4 venues at our disposal including a private club, which is easier for including any musical children, and we put out posters of where all the sessions are, "Musicians welcome" signs at said venues, and some indication of what type of session it might be, e.g. Tunes, mixed, Bluegrass.

Incidentally, re Sidmouth Middle Bar, the main rreason for the sessions moving upstairs was the fact that the pub converted the bar we used to use into a dining room! We still get the noise from the ceilidhs in the back garden blasting through even up there!

As others have mentioned, pubs come and go (perhaps more go) or change hands over the years, with new managers/owners having different concepts of what sort of music, if any, they want in their hostelry.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mr Happy
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 06:31 AM

Tattie Bogle,

Where & when is your own festival?

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 07:03 AM

At my first few Sidmouths I bought a full ticket so had the chance to dip in to anything.
I don't care for sitting in concerts (and don't like the sweaty Ham marquee) but what I won't do is queue. Queue for half an hour not knowing if I'm going to get in. This is not a complaint. I tried it and decided I don't do it. I'd rather walk on to something I can go straight in to. I always put money in the tins. There are lots of folks who do appreciate the events I pass by.
But singing against a rock band is a dead loss.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mr Happy
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 07:15 AM

A couple of significant points raised by ripov & Tattie;

'some may feel that the boot is on the other foot - that the gathering of musicians to spend a happy few days with their peers is the festival, and that paid entertainers are the intruders. '

I do agree, to my mind, traditional song & music is not a paid performance

&

'I pointed out to one of the organisers that some of wanted to go somewhere we could play ourselves, and he really seemed to think we were odd to suggest such a thing.'


I feel this reflects that many FF committees are composed of non active, passive audient types who expect 'entertainment' rather than anything self-generated

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 07:26 AM

Really, Mr Happy?

I enjoy both listening to others and playing myself ....... though being a banjo player I think others probably appreciate it when I do the former.

Out of the 8 on our committee, 6 are players/ singers of a good standard. And no, we haven't given ourselves any gigs at the festival.

The festival we are putting on in Bedale is aimed at the people of the town as well as bringing people in from outside.

Most people in the town don't sing or play. Therefore our focus is on putting together decent quality concerts ..... though of course there is free music in 3 of the pubs, some performed and some informal.

I really think you need to be careful with sweeping generalisations. I'll be at 10 other festivals this year ..... thinking through, most are actually run by people who sing and play.

Why can't you accept that there is room for both formal and informal music? I do!

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mr Happy
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 07:48 AM

'Why can't you accept that there is room for both formal and informal music? I do! '

Where in this discourse have I said anything different?

Re 'sweeping generalisations' - you'll note I said 'many' not 'all'

so 'sweeping'? - I think not

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:43 AM

Festivals cover a wide range, from those which are primarily focussed on concerts to those which are purely sessions. Most fall somewhere in between.

I don't think people who go to festivals only to participate in sessions are freeloaders. They contribute to the atmosphere of the festival, and in most cases if there were required to buy a ticket they would simply go elsewhere, so the argument that the festival is losing out doesn't hold water.

On the other hand, the festival is the catalyst which brings people together for the sessions, so it would be churlish not to acknowledge that by making some contribution, whether by buying a ticket or a donation. However I think it should be entirely voluntary.

I think this may be particularly true of small festivals where a few ticket sales may make quite a difference to financial success or failure. If all they succeed in doing is attract large crowds of sessioners who don't make a financial contribution then they might not happen again.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: GUEST,JW
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 12:55 PM

Those who go to a festival for the pub sessions and don't see why they should pay for a festival season ticket should try going to the same pub on a different weekend and see if it has the same ambience.

Festivals cost money to run, they require income. If not from tickets then from sponsorship and donations. If the publicans gave the festival a reasonable sum for the extra revenue the festival had created there may be a justification for the "free" fringe.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Stanron
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 06:15 PM

GUEST,JW

I wonder if, by now, you have read through the rest of this thread. It started with an observation that modern festivals seem to have less fringe/free events than in the past and has also touched on the apparency that some of today's folk festivals struggle for money. Could there be a connection between a dwindling fringe and festivals struggling for money?

More than one poster has expressed the view that fringe participants take more than they give but regular fringe attendees will disagree, and the idea that the fringe would not exist without a financially supported festival can be tested by attending one of the free session fests going on this coming weekend. Try it, you might like it.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mr Happy
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 04:26 AM

GUEST,JW,

Ditto what Stanron et al have said, it's not at all necessary for a big money outlay in order to hold folking about events, all that's needed are the folk!

If you are able to come our gathering in Anglesey this weekend & wish to make a donation, you can buy me a pint! 8-)

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 05:18 AM

Mr Happy, the festival I help to organise is Linlithgow Folk Festival, which is second weekend in September, so this year's dates are 11th- 15th.

Linlithgow Folk Festival

Hope you have a good weekend in Anglesey.

Sad to say that Auchtermuchty Traditional Music Festival is no more ( recent announcement) largely for financial reasons. It has been in existence for over 30 years.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: selby
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:42 AM

Sorry to labour the point but as seen from Tattie Bogle,s post without finance festivals can not continue.
Keith

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mo the caller
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:55 AM

Not every festival has the same costs.
Artists fees vary a lot, and a low fee doesn't always mean low quality.
E.g. I believe some singers charge far more than the dance bands and callers that lure me to festivals.
Some are trying to make a living through performing, others have a reasonable paid job with good holidays (in education etc.) and can afford to charge little more than expenses.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Mr Happy
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 08:33 AM

'without finance festivals can not continue'

Maybe you're right for the standard formula events, but I'd be very sure that gatherings will continue & judging by the more +ve responses to this type of exploit will probably increase in future.

Perhaps fest organisers should be looking to modify their current modus operandi?

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: selby
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 08:44 AM

Perhaps fest organisers should be looking to modify their current modus operandi?
I am sure they are all the time, It was mentioned in a post earlier about turning up in pubs with no festival on, how we would be greeted. I Know from newspaper reports of a festival that the " locals" hate, business,s and pubs accept the profit they make but the "locals" would quite happily see the festival disappear.
Keith

Subject: RE: UK Festivals changed
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 06:18 AM

Well I have to correct what I said about Auchtermuchty. What is happening is that it will no longer be a TMSA ( Traditional Music and Song Association of Scotland) festival, but there will still be some sort of musical input into the weekend of what is a week-long local gala. If anyone really wants to know, they have set up a Facebook page entitled Auchtermuchty Festival 2013, or there's discussion over on the Footstompin forum, some of which is a bit cryptic.
Regarding funding of festivals, this is a bit of postcode lottery, with some being well supported by local businesses and councils, and others having to rely on ticket sales, raffle sand bar takings to keep afloat without any external grants. It is also a fact that grant applications are becoming more and more complicated, with potential funders wanting statistics of attendances, "economic impact assessments" , business plans, novel projects rather than simple core funding, before they will agree to support.