BS: Militant atheism has become a religion

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 02:55 PM

Well..

Apologise for calling me a liar and who knows?

I was fascinated by watching the documentary where the BBC reporter had enough with the religious spokesman who tried wearing him down and then called him a liar.

Whilst I am not angry like the BBC bloke was with the scientology spokesman, Salty Jack has moved on to that level.

Why stop now? can't wait to see what you try next.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerend
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 05:19 PM

Now now Dears, put your toys back in your collective prams and play bonny
Remeber you are growm ups now, at least some of you are with the usual exception of Roger The Cabin boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 10:57 AM

"You wouldn't expect people to shut up about female genital mutilation...".


So sorry to hear about your strange type of palsy which forces you to type things you don't believe in.      You never meant to imply that religious instruction had anything in common with genital mutilation.    That's why you brought it up.   Of course it is.

Sure is interesting that some colonials know more about the English lanugage than supposedly highly educated intellectuals from the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 11:21 AM

"language"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 02:03 PM

A third post to explain your first would be useful. Or possibly not. Chunes are calling.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 10:25 PM

Interesting that you now choose to deny---rather unconvincingly, since the evidence is on the thread quite recently-- that you brought up genital mutilation in the same context as religious instruction.

Since I'm full of the milk of human kindness, however ( and modest besides, as you know), I will take the most charitable interpretation of your "genital mutilation" remark---that you do not understand how propaganda works.    Fortunately I am ready to remedy this gap in your education--who knows what others there may be?--and give you a short primer.   We in the US, perhaps in contrast to you who live in the paradise called the UK, have had recent- (hard to believe it was 10 years ago)-- occasion to deal with propaganda.   

We were told "Before September 11, many in the world believed Saddam Hussein could be contained".    This clearly seeks to establish in the mind of the listener or reader a link between Saddam and 11 September.   

Similarly, your comment on "female genital mutilation" seeks to establish in the mind of the reader a parallel between religious instruction and genital mutilation.    The only other interpretations are the "palsy" thesis and the proposition that the writer (your good self) was so mindless as to not realize the link he was proposing. So since I have of course the utmost respect for your intelligence, the only reasonable explanation for this otherwise amazingly stupid remark is your unfortunate ignorance of the workings of propaganda.

Don't worry; you need not thank me. Happy to be of service in addressing this flaw in your education.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 05:24 AM

""Interesting that you now choose to deny---rather unconvincingly, since the evidence is on the thread quite recently-- that you brought up genital mutilation in the same context as religious instruction.""

Explain to me exactly where he was wrong in bringing up the subject of female genital mutilation.

It is an integral part of the religious beliefs of at least a significant number of Muslims.

Just as my example of Jehovah Witnesses believing that blood transfusions must be refused, even when that means the death of a child, is an integral part of their religious beliefs.

There are a number of areas in Christian religious belief which are qualitatively analogous to those practises, though obviously not as severe.

So, answer me this. Are the religious beliefs of non Christians less acceptable to you than those of the Christian Faith?

If so, does that not make you a bigot and a hypocrite to boot?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 07:17 AM

Female genital mutilation is cultural practice which happens to be practiced by some Muslims and some Animists and others within a geographic area around the red sea.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 08:03 AM

The major issue we have with the practice in The UK is with Nigerian migrants too. It is s Christian ritual there. A surgeon friend who came from there goes back to spend free time in a clinic in Lagos repairing botched operations and a nurse here in The UK was struck off last month (BBC has the story) and got her referrals from her church.

Not good enough to be bigoted about other religions. They are all religions and to dismiss them is to dismiss your own. If you permit, you promote.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,JtS
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 09:26 AM

So if people who claim to be Christians do bad things that predate Christ or Moses for that matter, which this does, you still blame the practice on Christianity?

LOL

Are you sure you are in a position to cast stones about bigotry?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerendi
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 10:35 AM

i see jerk the sailor is claiming knowledge of the red sea..I woild bet the nearest he has been to the red sea is when he cut his finger on his palstic duck in the bath..deny it if you dare you nautical fraud

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 10:48 AM

If it is in the name of Christianity then Christianity has a problem.   I don't see The Archbishop of Canterbury disowning the African bishops advocating death for being gay.

To permit is to promote.

To say mutilation of children is a feature of Islam but not Christianity is rather disgusting. If you had said it is not a feature of religion would be a start to helping stop the credibility of such practice.

To permit is to promote.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 10:53 AM

So, just out of curiosity, and feedback, as atheists, how would you view a President who would 'side' with Christianity, or Islam?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 05:09 PM

I made it perfectly clear in a follow-up post that I do not consider female genital mutilation to be equivalent to anything other than female genital mutilation. Ron is trolling. God knows what the nature of the bee in his bonnet is.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 05:41 PM

" Ron is trolling. "

Looks like he has a Musket fish on his line.

But you are of the hook. We all know that you brought up Female genital mutilation to change the subject when you were losing an argument. You implied that it had to do with religion but Ron got you to back down.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 06:38 PM

Ron doesn't get me to do anything except get annoyed with Ron, Jacko. Ron doesn't read posts. Ron gets a vague idea in his head that he hates you and lashes out. What he says bears no relevance at all with what one has posted. I wouldn't mind if it did, 'cos then I'd at least have a chance at having a go back at him. Jack, be well advised: your enemy's enemy is not necessarily your friend. Be careful who you throw your lot in with. Ron is a prize lightweight tosser who has never contributed a single valid point to this forum, ever. His mindless interventions are about as useful as a fart in a spacesuit. Still, Jacko, you know best. We don't mind who you sign up to. It don't make you look too good, though. Some of us are a bit more discriminating, but don't let us stop you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 06:54 PM

I've known Ron, on this forum a very long time. We've locked horns a time or two.

"Ron doesn't read posts. Ron gets a vague idea in his head that he hates you and lashes out. What he says bears no relevance at all with what one has posted. I wouldn't mind if it did, 'cos then I'd at least have a chance at having a go back at him. "

I think pretty much the same of you. But Ron has a large advantage over you. He remembers the positions he has taken in his own posts. Not that I particularly blame you. It is clear that your goal is to harass rather than enlighten, so why bother to communicate?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Apr 13 - 12:37 AM

So, just out of curiosity, and feedback, as atheists, how would you view a President who would 'side' with Christianity, or Islam?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans body
Date: 28 Apr 13 - 02:45 AM

Ok Goofus. I would as a person, (I do nothing as an atheist) view a President as someone who became a President through people voting for them. You need to throw a few baubles at the voters.

Alistair Campbell who was Tony Blair's press secretary famously said that "we don't do God. " Tony Blair is very religious and once he left office converted to Catholicism. He had no issue however with the statement about the role of 10 Downing St in society.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 13 - 10:06 PM

"a vague position"..."lashing out".    Uh, not exactly.   So sorry if you don't like being quoted directly--which is exactly what I have done.    In a discussion which in large part centered on teaching of Christianity to children, you brought up genital mutllation--which has precisely no bearing on the topic--except in a very twisted mind.

If you don't appreciate being quoted directly, there is one revolutionary idea I could suggest to you:    start thinking before you hit "send" .

It seems a reasonable notion--perhaps you might try it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Apr 13 - 07:32 AM

"mutilation"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Apr 13 - 05:38 AM

""In a discussion which in large part centered on teaching of Christianity to children, you brought up genital mutllation--which has precisely no bearing on the topic--except in a very twisted mind.""

1. Only in JtS' paranoid mind did this discussion centre on Christianity. Everybody else was talking about organised religion in general terms, and discussing the merits (or otherwise) of imposing myths as truth on human beings too young to exercise informed choices.

2. Genital mutilation is one example of a religiously inspired abuse of the children so mutilated, and before you question the topicality or the religious aspect of it, can you deny that cirumcision of Jewish boys is a requirement of that religion?

3. Perhaps you would like to answer the following question, which is definitely germane to the topic.

Do you think it is right that the children of Jehovah Witnesses and others with the same beliefs should, according to their parents, be allowed to die rather than receive a life saving blood transfusion?

In the UK, the state has to step in and order treatment to be given, which decision is strenuously opposed by the parents.

Do you think that it is reasonable for parents to impose their religious beliefs on a child, even to the point of death?

If not (and I do hope not), where do you draw the line?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Apr 13 - 05:47 AM

Just to expand a little in explanation of my last question.

Where should the line be drawn between a parent's right to decide for a child, and the rights of the child itself?

1. At the point of death?
2. At the point of serious physical damage?
3. At the point of minor physical harm?
4. At the point of serious psychological harm?
5. At the point of minor psychological disturbance?

6. At the point where the potential for any of the above exists?

WHERE?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 30 Apr 13 - 01:30 PM

One hopes that you are not naive enough to assume that organized religion are not the only ones that impose myths on children.

In fact, secular ideas, like, "The police are your friends", or "We have achieved a just and lasting peace",that pizza and coke or fish and chips are in any way healthy meals, or the concept of "Must See TV" seem much more dangerous and pervasive that that "Jesus Love You", or that you should try to keep the "Ten Commandments".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sin
Date: 30 Apr 13 - 01:31 PM

As Don rightly points out. Here in The UK we have laws to protect children from the obscene aspects of religion. It is a pity that the vast good people with faith are let down by their leaders who consistently fail to disown barbaric practices in their name.

Popes who actively covered up child abuse. Archbishop of Canterbury who consistently refused to disown Ugandan bishops who supported and encouraged the idea of death sentence for gay people. Mullahs who go quiet when their congregation is consistently suspected as being in league, wrongly, with those who use Islam as a tool for domination.

If I were prone to organised superstition I would be asking those I gave my money and time to what they are doing to be relevant to today's society.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,The Other Mr. Abernathy
Date: 30 Apr 13 - 02:54 PM

They don't listen to you much at home, do they, Musket? Too much telly, The Daily Mail, video games, or whatever. No such thing as "Master of the House" anymore. A disgrace. Well, sad, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sin
Date: 30 Apr 13 - 05:52 PM

Err. Yeah. I think.

A pint of what he's on please Landlord.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 May 13 - 09:45 AM

""One hopes that you are not naive enough to assume that organized religion are not the only ones that impose myths on children.""

Working through your double negative to what you actually meant to say, religions are the only ones making a way of life based on myths.

And just how, in any case, would the fact that there are others doing wrong absolve religions from responsibility?

That is pure playground nonsense!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 01 May 13 - 03:51 PM

Forget it Don, You win. Everything bad is the fault of religion. Nobody else needs to accept any responsibility for anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 02 May 13 - 01:18 AM

Two observations there.

If you are rational you take responsibility for your actions rather than wonder why your imaginary friend is testing you.

If you ascribe everything to your God, your God is at fault on your behalf.

Convenient eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 May 13 - 08:35 AM

""Forget it Don, You win. Everything bad is the fault of religion. Nobody else needs to accept any responsibility for anything.""

Nicely twisted Stim, but as you well know, not what I said.

The religious on this thread are trying hard, though unsuccessfully, to claim the moral high ground, but failing that to denigrate the non religious. I'm not an Atheist and I don't much care for the word, which is being used here as a pejorative, particularly by the woolly minded lunatic fringe.

My point is that nobody can claim that the misdeeds of another justify his own.

So far the only people trying to do so are the so-called faithful, who apparently lose sight of "The Golden Rule" whenever they interact with a non believer.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 02 May 13 - 04:31 PM

In my humble opinion I think most of you have far to much time on your hands.

Or you all have several screws loose.

I have never read so much self opiniated claptrap in all me years.

"Wooly minded" is to gentle a word

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 03 May 13 - 11:24 AM

I think "concerened" has it nailed.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 May 13 - 10:02 AM

To set the record straight a bit:

Jack was the only one centering on teaching of Christianity"?    Nice fancy footwork, but no cigar. The target of the illustrious Mr. Shaw was primarily Christianity--as anyone who reads the entire thread can see. And he was the one who made the link to genital mutilation.   

I wonder if our stalwart atheists have any idea how foolish they sound.   

Perhaps they have not even noticed that their intrepid captain, Mr. Shaw, has jumped overboard and is no longer defending the untenable position he asserted.   While the rest (often from the UK, which I don't think is exactly in the grip of a Christian Taliban) have insisted on nailing their colors to a ship sinking before they boarded, and on fighting to the death (attacking religion) as the ship continues to submerge.

Your ship is not only sunk but has quite a few barnacles growing on it.

Your attitude reminds me of those dear dead days of yore when Teribus of blessed memory repeated for about 500 posts that the GWB administration did not carry out a propaganda campaign to convince the US public to back the Iraq war they had planned.

Your position is just as sensible as his was. (Or that of the sainted Rev. Falwell). And no more. Skepticm makes eminent sense.   Atheism makes as much sense as fundamentalism.

Just as surely as any fundamentalist preacher, you have spiritualized your hysteria.

But I'll have to say it is such a comfort to know that the US is not the only nation graced with half-baked zealots.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 May 13 - 10:05 AM

"Skepticism"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 04 May 13 - 01:41 PM

Well done Ron Davies.

Prat. Your post above just demonstrates what people who don't do superstition have to put up with by word twisting logic choppers such as you and your first mate at sea.

First of all you indicate that if you feel you have evolved beyond mind controlling comfort blankets you have to be labelled atheist. Then you point out that it must be an assertion. Then you pick holes in your straw man. Then... then you have the nerve to say skeptic would be a better position.

Considering Steve Shaw, rational mudcatters and I have got fed up with pointing out the difference between not believing all that nonsense and claiming to be an atheist, you throw our collection of views back at us saying this would be better than the position you feel we all have.

Just because you may have a delusion, don't think normal people are as shallow.

Not believing in superstition is just that. It doesn't mean being an atheist. That is a sniggering term of contempt used by people who believe in God to describe normal people.

Even the diety you all put up as some imaginary leader, Dawkins, is on record as saying atheism by definition means you know there is no god. He just points out it is highly unlikely. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 05 May 13 - 03:26 AM

blah. .blah. ..blah. .blahtiddy blah..come on people you must have had a life sometime?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 May 13 - 04:07 AM

""blah. .blah. ..blah. .blahtiddy blah..come on people you must have had a life sometime?""

You've been injecting these inane comments for some time without once adding anything that is germane to the topic.

Who needs to get a life?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans Ian
Date: 05 May 13 - 04:24 AM

To be honest Don, I think I need to get one.

In order to make a simple point I find I have to be insulting. I suppose the frustration of the sanctimonious effort by some in society to see lack of religion as a threat to their lifestyle. .. The nurse who failed in her attempt to be allowed to introduce Jesus to vulnerable sick people when allowed in their home on professional grounds or the commercial business that refused a couple to stay overnight in their guest house. When courts and professional regulators cried foul, they called it religious persecution.

You know what? I'm going to buy a few 4x2 timbers and some nails. Sod it. Let's see what religiosity persecution really means.

Apologies to those who quietly enjoy and are at ease with their faith. I feel the same when I see football hooliganism and there's me, a football fan.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 May 13 - 07:06 PM

Just checking in.

"Prat".    Temper, temper, little man.


To return to the program:

As I've said before, atheism deserves the same amount of respect as fundamentalism. And no more.

To anyone who can think and read (perhaps that excludes the esteemed Mr. Mather, Slingshot, or whatever he cares to call himself these days-- and his sidekicks)   the reason should be obvious:    both pretend to more certainty, in the same field of inquiry, than is justified. Atheists come to their own unshakeable conclusions, just as fundamentalists do.   Neither attitude is reasonable.

Fundamentalism and atheism are flip sides of the same coin.

As I've noted, skepticism on religion is more than justified;   atheism is, to put it mildly, less so. Maybe that's why people who rely on thought and reason and have not spiritualized hysteria--- Bill D for example-- call themselves skeptics rather than atheists.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 13 - 07:49 PM

Perhaps they have not even noticed that their intrepid captain, Mr. Shaw, has jumped overboard and is no longer defending the untenable position he asserted.

"Mr Shaw" has been in hospital undergoing major surgery, as it happens, and this is the first time he's switched on his laptop for over a week. "Mr Shaw" is not noted for jumping overboard.

And, Wacko, Ron doesn't read posts. The fact that you claim to have had a long association with him does absolutely nothing in my eyes to enhance the stature of either of you. I write good, clear English, and I've already, in good, clear English, tidied up the matter I raised with respect to female genital mutilation (not that I should have had to, but you know how these toothless wolves like to pounce). But Vexatious Ron wishes I hadn't done that. Vexatious Ron wishes I'd stuck to what he sees (wrongly, of course, but we are talking about Vexatious Ron here, aren't we?) as my prejudiced position. I'm sorry to have disappointed him so. The refutation of his silly position (and yours too, by association), is clear for all to see way up this thread somewhere. I refer you to same. I typed, you hunt. Me no parrot.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 May 13 - 11:27 AM

"Ron doesn't read posts".    Of course not.   Just enough to quote you accurately.    Seems you still haven't learned to think before posting. Pity.

But welcome back. Sorry you had medical problems.   I prayed for you.   Hope you don't mind.

But, Captain Shaw, I had thought you were perhaps putting out fires elsewhere (look it up).

The other members of your brigade have missed you, as of course have I.

And let me say I appreciate that you at least have the courage to stand behind your posts with your full name (first and last, at least--or perhaps you prefer Christian name and surname). Perhaps you can put some backbone into the other members of your team so they can do the same.




And now perhaps you or they can explain why atheism does not require more certainty on the question of religion than does skepticism.   Since, contrary to the dictionary, it appears that is what you believe. We can start there.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans Ian
Date: 07 May 13 - 12:38 PM

Ok. Once more.

Atheism is a word. It is widely understood to mean person who has no need for religion, no interest in forming or joining a group delusion and rather than pontificate on the meaning of life, reads and forms judgement on facts and evidence based theories. Alternatively means not interested in the question in the first place. Far too many real affairs to worry about without indulging in fantasy. After all, soap opera replaced religion as the keep the masses quiet fodder years ago.

It is also a term widely used to denote people who see no good in encouraging organisations called religions interfering with society insofar as rational people become affected by their influence and dogma.

The two loose definitions could describe the same people in individual circumstances but the former is not necessarily the latter.

Those involved in organised religion may not like the idea of more rational people deriding and dismissing their Creed and hobby so some develop a persecution complex in order to say that not believing in an imaginary friend threatens the lifestyle of those that do.

Quite.

Smokeless fuel, electricity and gas threatened chimney sweeps but the advancement in technology didn't chuffing well persecute them. Just made them less relevant and less needed for those of us who weren't chimney sweeps.

Pray for me. Not that it makes one jot of a difference to either of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: BrendanB
Date: 07 May 13 - 02:53 PM

Part of the Oxford English Dictionary definition of the word 'atheism' is 'the belief that there is no God'. It is true that that is not the sole definition but it is entirely valid to use the word in that way. If I understand Ron Davies correctly his point is that, given that definition, the belief in the non-existence of God is as much an act of faith as belief in the existence of God. None of this proves anything and the fact that I have posted to this thread is indicative that I have far too much time on my hands.
I hope you return to robust health very quickly Steve. I am glad the surgery went well.

Farewell to this thread and all who insist on keeping it alive, my only question is, why? (Don't answer that, I won't respond.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 07 May 13 - 03:34 PM

Why? Why not?

I agree that there is a definition around believing or assuming there is no God. I think this is somewhat simplistic. Knowing there is no god is the same as knowing there is one. A position without evidence.

However, not believing in a prescribed deity such as an old man who had his child killed for us and bringing flood etc is not the same as not believing in any reason for existing. I assume the frustration of those who are fairly confident that 2000 year old documents are no more than fairy stories get upset when confronted with"if you don't succumb to a prescribed delusion you are saying you know there is no god.

I could be wrong but I don't think a single person on this or similar threads has claimed they know there is no god. However, plenty have asserted there is one. ..

Hence the word delusion entering into the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: John P
Date: 07 May 13 - 04:32 PM

Part of the Oxford English Dictionary definition of the word 'atheism' is 'the belief that there is no God'.

Sorry, but this does nothing except display our society's penchant for assuming that belief in god is the normal default position.

Why is it so hard for people to understand? Atheism is the LACK of belief. 'The belief that there is no God' is an oxymoron, and, at this point in the conversation, an offensive one.

I don't have a belief in god. I don't have a belief in not-God. I don't have beliefs in this sense at all. I am very comfortable stating that there is without doubt no God, at least not as defined by most major religions. I don't give a rat's ass about proper scientific ways of putting things. I'm not a scientist and I don't need to talk like one. Since there is exactly no evidence for God, and a vast amount of evidence for not-God, I have to conclude that there is no God. This is not a belief. It is a conclusion based on the evidence. Please, please, please, stop it with your "atheism is a belief system" bullshit. It's rude, egotistical, and reveals you as someone who can't think coherently. Give it up.

Don't you understand that this is part of why so many people don't have any patience with Christians? Is being a jerk supposed to make other people think the better of your religion?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 13 - 06:34 PM

Thing is, John, there is a certain type of believer who can only see, bitterly, those not of their persuasion in a negative equivalent state to their positive belief. Equal and opposite. They are making two errors. First, as you articulate so well, atheists do not "not believe". Belief, at worst, is blind faith. A conviction based on no evidence, or, worse, which flies in the face of evidence. Belief in God qualifies on both counts. Of course, there is a meritorious kind of belief, which balances real evidence and comes down on one side more than the other. I believe that the Earth is around four billion years old. Most of the evidence I've seen supports that notion and there is little evidence against, though there are gaps in knowledge still to fill. I can rationally say that I believe the Earth is four billion years old, or thereabouts. I can't rationally say that God exists. I can rationally say that there is no evidence that gets anything like nearly over the bar that supports his existence. In fact, all the evidence I've ever seen for God isn't actually evidence at all. It doesn't pass the rationality test as evidence. There is always an impossible chasm to leap before it adds up to this, this, therefore this. Actually, we call it a leap of faith. Atheists don't care much for leaps of faith. We see a wonderful world out there capable of being explained in terms of the delicious commonplace, one that holds to the rules. Religious belief is a worldwide irritant that diverts intelligent people away from reality and continually threatens the peace. Douglas Adams said "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" and I agree with him.

Their second error is that they forget that it's their belief that created us in the first place. Atheists are all their fault. We did nothing. We kept calm and carried on.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 May 13 - 06:15 AM

Being a believer in some greater presence (call it a Deity for convenience), though completely non religious in the normally acepted sense of the word, I still find myself more in accord with those who are being stereotyped as "Atheists".

I can for instance accept that there is more evidence for their point of view than for mine.

What I don't see is evidence of any "faith" or "belief system" in their point of view. As has been said above, they have drawn a conclusion based on the evidence they observe around them.

They do not ask others to share their conclusion and they only interact with the "faithful" when provoked by the kind of nonsense which has been thrown at them in this thread.

Both the "Atheists" and people like myself seem to be considered a threat by some of those of a religious bent, who cannot resist trying to pigeonhole us into a stereotype to which they can justifiably feel superior.

The bad news is that we think for ourselves, rather than follow the doctrine and dogma, and we don't give a damn whether they like it or not.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: John P
Date: 08 May 13 - 09:57 AM

Both the "Atheists" and people like myself seem to be considered a threat by some of those of a religious bent, who cannot resist trying to pigeonhole us into a stereotype to which they can justifiably feel superior.

I've been wondering if the believers' desire to believe that atheists "believe" in the same way that believers do is due to the believers believing somewhere deep inside that their world view is not part of an evidence-based reality. In order to make themselves feel better about being irrational in this way, they want to believe that the rational people around them are as guilty as they of believing. It feels sometimes like they are apologizing for their belief by accusing others of sharing it. This is, of course, a very general statement and worth about the same as any other general statement when it comes to describing any individual.

Being a believer in some greater presence (call it a Deity for convenience)

What I'd like to discuss with both Christians and agnostics is what each individual actually believes and why. It's hard to have a conversation about god when the word can be defined in so many different ways. I myself am aware that there is a greater force that informs the universe and which can be experienced by human beings in a mystical/spiritual/religious way. I would never call this force a deity, since 'deity' implies, for me, consciousness, personality, ability to be communicated with, and active participation in the lives of humans. For many (most?) people who use the word, it also implies the ability and willingness to perform miracles that break the laws of physics. What I don't know is if you feel those same implications when you use the word 'deity'. Discussion without definition is bound to be fraught with misunderstanding. I also used the words 'mystical', 'spiritual', and 'religious' above. Does anyone know what I mean when I use them in that context?

Theoretical discussions, in some ways, can't bring us any closer to understanding each other or ourselves; as I noted earlier, they rarely provide an accurate description of any individual. Maybe we could start with the belief that the Bible presents literal facts and work out from there. From the non-believer standpoint, that would have to be the default assumption if someone says they are a Christian. I know, of course, that most Christians don't have any such belief (at least not the Christians I'm acquainted with), but I don't know where anyone draws their lines unless they tell me.

Anyone want to get real? What do you believe?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 08 May 13 - 01:36 PM

wishing you a speedy recovery steve.
as to the rest of your post ,- it consists of the usual unsupported assertions.what is this overwelming evidence that you imply ,if not assert affirms your no-God position.