BS: Militant atheism has become a religion

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jun 13 - 04:04 PM

My point is that you are a childish jerk. All I have to do is start a thread with the word "Atheist" in the title and you make that point over and over and over...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 10 Jun 13 - 03:28 PM

Better than failing to make your piss poor point.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jun 13 - 03:07 PM

900 posts! About 800 being Musket failing to be funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 10 Jun 13 - 05:30 AM

Seemingly?

Chapter 1.

When Mr Bilbo Baggins of Bag End announced that he would shortly be celebrating his eleventy-first birthday with a party of special magnificence, there was much talk and excitement in Hobbiton.

Day 2 gets even better.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jun 13 - 05:42 PM

"i would need to be a hebrew scholar as to whether the word translated as "image" in english has a wider range than your take on it."

If the Bible is divine Revelation and every word of it is true, then you don't.

If you are not sure what is meant by "image", how can you be so sure what the meaning of "first day" and "second day" is in Genesis 1?

These are pretty dramatic things The Earth created before the very idea of light? "Divided the light from the darkness?" Surely Moses, or whoever wrote this knew what "shadow" was.

Did God not know when he "divinely inspired" this that the Earth is a ball rotating before a light source?

If you are going to pick holes in science because you literally believe the Bible why start with Darwinian Evolution? Why not Newtonian Physics?

If you can contradict the Bible by saying that the world is a sphere, that the Sun was created first. That light is a physical property of the universe, very large and obvious differences, why do you nitpick over which "bridge species" or missing links do or do not exist in the fossil record? Don't get me started on day 2 where it really gets weird and seemingly nonsensical.

Genesis
1

The Creation
1         In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2         And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3         ¶ And God said, Let there be light: 2 Cor. 4.6 and there was light.
4         And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5         And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6         ¶ And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7         And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8         And God called the firmament Heaven. 2 Pet. 3.5 And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 09 Jun 13 - 04:48 PM

if i understand your argument,jack,you are saying that since the dictionary defines "image"[and likeness?] as ref to physical form that the whole creation account is allegory?.
my understanding is that the primary meaning has to do with the qualities of humanhood such as moral,spiritual,intellectual capacity.
i would need to be a hebrew scholar as to whether the word translated as "image" in english has a wider range than your take on it.i do know however that many hebrew words do have a range of meanings.the choice of translation often being guided by context.if this is true in this case,the interpretation chosen will be aided by theological understanding also.
there is however one other factor,and that is that in Christ God would take on human flesh and so there would be human resemblance then,,as indeed there is now as the Man represents us men to the Father.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 02:24 PM

BTW, you are the only person on this forum that thinks that Ian Mather is a better person than Musket. For your own sake you might want to work on getting over that delusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 02:22 PM

More childish taunting eh? .... Sigh... Carry on if it makes you feel better.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 02:21 PM

I have never called you a pr*ck. I did however call you a prick.

That's Ian Mather saying that by the way. Musket would add arrogant, gormless, self satisfied, confusing, delusional, hilariously stupid, absurd voice box for the terminally thick as pigshit.

Tell you what, you can't half get them going in Dumbfuckistan. Dozy old sod rises to the bait so easily it is almost naughty drawing him. So why do I? Perhaps because whilst ever he keeps starting threads in order to push his Creed in what he thinks are subtle ways, well idiots like me posting are a consequence.

Sailor Jack is a Christian! let's point and laugh!

Zzzzzzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 02:02 PM

As a stating point for science, Man is above the animals and separate from them is less useful than we all came from the same stuff.

"being made in Gods image surely relates to things other than body parts."

Of course it does, if you believe that Genesis is allegory as I do. But if you are insisting that it must all be taken literally, which is the basis of creationism, and "Creation Science" and all of that then you are stuck with this.

Image.

An image (from Latin: imago) is an artifact that depicts or records visual perception, for example a two-dimensional picture, that has a similar appearance to some subject–usually a physical object or a person, thus providing a depiction of it.

Image refers to visual perception, not souls or intelligence or anything intangible. Then you are left with if a pigs heart is like a man's and man's is like God's then Pigs hearts are in the image of God's.

On the other hand if it is all allegory, you can simply say "I realize that Evolution is the best fit for ALL the data we have, though it may not be perfect. AND assuming that God can create everything from scratch in 6 days, it would be a trivially easy thing in comparison for Him to make that 6 days look like 13.5 billion years." IMHO, there is no point in Creationism or "Creation Science" except as something to break into factions and fight over. I say as we render onto Caesar what is Caesar's, so should we render onto science, what belongs to science. We cannot solve scientific questions with religion any more than we can solve religious questions with science.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 01:33 PM

re- edward blyth,checked two sources on wed.one obviously pro darwinism.at time of writing on natural selection blyth was obviously creationist but sometime after this it seems he too drew comparisons between negros and apes,as darwin did ,i believe
note that i do not claim that the theory originated with blythe.it is however widely accepted that darwin used his writings [apparently without acknowledgment] .i am also aware that evolutionary ideas date back to the greeks also.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 01:01 PM

think i might be missing something in your reply,jack.being made in Gods image surely relates to things other than body parts.He is spirit,as i,m sure you know ,so maybe i miscomprehend?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 12:52 PM

to the grammtically exacting-
equivocation - use ambiquity to conceal the truth.
oxford english dictionary.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 12:45 PM

Ian Mather,

   You said that you were using the name Musket because a reporter had asked you if Mudcat Ian Mather was the same one he was interviewing. You said that you wanted to say things here that you would not want associated with your real world persona. You then, rather arrogantly and stupidly, I thought, instructed me to address you as "Musket.

I thought that, since it is apparent that what you want to hide is your insults and childish mocking, of me and others, I could not accept that instruction. I called you Ian Mather AKA Musket, the next time you insulted. You called me a "pr*ck."

Be warned if you continue to arrogantly insult people I won't hesitate to say that Ian Mather is doing so.

I hope I have made this clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 12:40 PM

notice the omission of the word ORIGINS.
THAT IS NOT TESTABLE - at least not to the exclusion of undesired explaations.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 07:25 AM

"science,by its very nature is untestable"

On the contrary, by its very nature science must be testable or it's not science. It's tested by observation and experiment.

Religious belief, on the other hand, by its very nature is untestable. Indeed, it seems to rely on this, since it simply disregards any evidence which contradicts it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,musket sans Ian
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 03:45 AM

You know, there is a difference between using a moniker and "shielding" as you put it. My name is Ian Mather. Fine, move on. I did say that in reality I am too diplomatic and the freedom of these posts is the ability to point and laugh at delegates from Dumbfuckistan with their inability to see religion as something some are interested in, some dismiss and some don't think one thing or another. No matter, we have our own legion of misfits, vulnerable people and smug idiots.

I suppose in a room, I would try to reason rather than laugh in your face.

But I'd still probably leave the debate thinking "Wow, thick as pigshit."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 10:27 PM

"you sad little man,"

More insults... sigh....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 08:45 PM

Calling people names doesn't make you seem any less stupid Mr. Shaw, quite the opposite.

Its pretty clear from the context that pete meant you two were treating "evolution" and "natural selection" interchangeably. It was doubly clear because you have done so. Often.

Call names all you want. Deflect arguments with taunts and insults all you please. None of that is making you look less stupid.

While you continue to misrepresent people you happen to disagree with, you sad little man, you can expect a lot more in the way of taunts and insults and you'll deserve every single one. Your post here contains a classic example of such misrepresentation: I do not deflect arguments, I take them on, head on, every time, on this topic. Every time you do this I'll call you out for being the petty, small-minded idiot that you clearly wish to be seen as. By the way, it's abundantly clear that your understanding of evolution and natural selection (along with any other scientific concepts you've ever unwisely referred to) is just about on a par with thickie-pete's. Now that IS an insult.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 12:48 PM

Concerned, is your real life name Max? :-)

You possess a unique combination of mischief and supervision that I have only ever seen in one other online persona.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 12:26 PM

I think you are all as mad as collective boxes of frogs.

I think you was all bullied at school with all your little playground spats and hissifits.


Come on chaps, play bonny, theres dears.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 11:49 AM

"I have just thought of the best way to make Sailor boy look a fool.   Read his posts!"

Hmm the point I have been making about Steve and you for the past week. I guess imitation is sincere flattery.

You know I very rarely read your posts though, or usually respond to them since you told us all that the name "Musket" is a ruse you are using to shield real world Ian Mather from the consequences of the nasty, irrational thins that you say as Musket. If you are ashamed of what you say, why should any of us care about anything you say?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 06:30 AM

Joe Offer
A few days ago you asked me what I think is the correct thing to say about the theory of evolution. Did you find my answer useful?

Steve Shaw

After I said that however comprehensive the explanation, the theory still needs to fit the facts, I asked "Any comments on the other points I raised in my post?"

Shall I take that as a "No"?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans respectability
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 03:13 AM

I don't mind looking stupid though. Steve Shaw tries to make earnest points and gets frustrated to the point of abuse whilst I have no issue in taunting once a point has been lost and the protagonist insists on repeating till things become true. (Vicars spring to mind but I digress).

I have just thought of the best way to make Sailor boy look a fool.   Read his posts! Nothing else is needed. Hoist by his own petard with flawed logic and the rest of his diatribe? Oh, that must be the type of abuse he accuses others of when he looks a prize chump. I notice he hasn't gone running to the elves lately. I suppose thats a start.

Sorry about my moaning everybody but Jack Tarr gives good value and laughing at his absurdity is a nice break from reality from time to time.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 11:06 PM

Calling people names doesn't make you seem any less stupid Mr. Shaw, quite the opposite.

Its pretty clear from the context that pete meant you two were treating "evolution" and "natural selection" interchangeably. It was doubly clear because you have done so. Often.

Call names all you want. Deflect arguments with taunts and insults all you please. None of that is making you look less stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 09:40 PM

You're as mad as a box of frogs. You know that, don't you, Wacko Jacko?

Now then, Wacko. "Equating" is such an easy word. You know damn well that scumbag-pete didn't mean that at all. In a million years, how could you possibly imagine that someone who wished to type "equating" would type "equivelating", unless he was on something Class A or better? Well yes, you could imagine it. You've already told us of your incredible powers of imagination... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 09:11 PM

"jack- i think i follow your argument as regards some measure of interchageability between humans and other creatures but whereas the darwinist might claim this as evidence of his beliefs ,the creationist sees it as evidence of a designer,utilizing and adjustig the blueprint to suit each application."

Its pretty simple pete.

26 Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

The Bible says they were created separately according to their own form. Does it say that man was created in God's image and the animals partly in God's image so that man can use the spare parts? Not in my Bibles. It is either literally true and all true or part of it is allegory. You can't say it is all true and just say the part that doesn't fit your theory is allegory. That is like Steve saying that Evolution is a theory until he needs it to be "true" for the sake of his own argument.

I think Howard has explained theory vs truth quite well. I does not differ from what I said except in focus. I was talking about the terms focusing on what Steve and pete were saying about them. Sorry Steve you don't get to truthfully say it is truth just because you taught science and believe it to be true. Sorry pete, you don't get to say that it is untrue just because it is called a theory.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 08:51 PM

""Equivelating", huh? Why, what word is this? You know something, you creationist arsehole? You are the rudest and laziest man that has ever posted on this forum. The message of yours I'm quoting from here is the stupidest and most incoherently-ungrammatical I've had the misfortune to read in years. Surely there's a hole somewhere nearby you can crawl into, thereby doing us all a bloody big favour. Actually, no. Do go on. We atheists look pretty good already, but you make us all look ten times better"

I am sure he meant "Equating." Do you have the courage to address his point after that obvious and easy correction? I don't think so. No, easier for you, the great scientist/educator/anti-religious scholar to feign outrage over a simple grammatical error.

As for who is "rude and lazy" pete isn't the one spewing a stream of lazy, ignorant, unfounded insults. Pete has a lot of faults in his grammar, but he speaks politely and modestly. That is way more than can be said for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 06:52 PM

firstly the reducing of darwinism to 2 sentances was referencing a quote from steve,though i did not look back for the exact words.

Well, if it's me you're cackling on about, I said two lines, not two sentances [sic]. Would you like it? Do ask. And you never do "look back". You never "have time". You're always doing something else. Singing anti-abortion songs or something, I suppose. Either that, or (as I strongly suspect), you're just a lazy bastard who relies on the words of your equally-lazy fellow-traveller bigots.

I'll ignore the total bollocks you addressed to Howard (he must be cringeing) and turn to this gem:

steve is still equivelating [and ian] between evolutionism and natural selection.the latter of course was all darwin had to go on,something darwin may have "borrowed" from the creationist edward blythe.

"Equivelating", huh? Why, what word is this? You know something, you creationist arsehole? You are the rudest and laziest man that has ever posted on this forum. The message of yours I'm quoting from here is the stupidest and most incoherently-ungrammatical I've had the misfortune to read in years. Surely there's a hole somewhere nearby you can crawl into, thereby doing us all a bloody big favour. Actually, no. Do go on. We atheists look pretty good already, but you make us all look ten times better.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 05:34 PM

Militant atheism has always been the secret internal mindset of those who pose as a religious leader, dictator, emperor, political leader or your typical psycho in need o power who claims divine influence and inspiration.

You don't think the power hungry are really devout believers do you?
Amhadjinizad has to bow to the supreme leaders who are imams, and pray to Allah but he is obviously out for himself. Most priests as well as Popes know the score and you can bet they were often to clever to buy into total belief hook line and sinker, that was for the unwashed masses.

There have been atheists like Himmler and Hitler who devoted themselves to creating a new mythical religion, spiritual authority or divine messenger.
Bush the younger was found with his hand in that cookie jar many times but it has been shrugged off as pandering to his base.
It is more like pandering to the basest side of inhumanity.

Yep it seems to me that some of the most publicly religious people worship the power it gives them and disregard the rest.
Those who say they are religionists often do so to go along to get along.

Yes the worst atheists are the ones who usurp religion. At worst they can be monsters, at the least they are liars.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans body
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 02:14 PM

pete. Again and trying really hard to be civil about it.

Stop calling acceptance of scientific theories "beliefs." They cannot be beliefs as once they are refined they disappear. Nobody starts a war.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 01:15 PM

I have looked up Blyth [note spelling] in wikipedia. He was indeed a distinguished ornitholgist, and an early observer of natural selection [tho he did not use the term himself] of whose work Darwin was well aware and much respectful, and whom he consulted, much to Blyth's own gratification -- '"much gratified to learn that a subject in which I have always felt the deepest interest has been undertaken by one so competent to treat of it in all its bearings" and they corresponded on the subject.'

But I can find no ref or evidence there to the fact that he was any sort of explicit 'creationist' as pete claims. Your source for this assertion, please, pete?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 01:05 PM

firstly the reducing of darwinism to 2 sentances was referencing a quote from steve,though i did not look back for the exact words.

jack- i think i follow your argument as regards some measure of interchageability between humans and other creatures but whereas the darwinist might claim this as evidence of his beliefs ,the creationist sees it as evidence of a designer,utilizing and adjustig the blueprint to suit each application.

howard - your explanation of the differences between theory and hypothesis is helpful but whereas acceptance by majority of scientists may designate evolutionism to theory status ,i fail to see how it can be tested.origins science,by its very nature is untestable.
wrong predictions dont help it either!

steve is still equivelating [and ian] between evolutionism and natural selection.the latter of course was all darwin had to go on,something darwin may have "borrowed" from the creationist edward blythe.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 11:51 AM

Yes, I have 'seen' evolution take place. It's going on all the time. I recently posted on one of these threads an account of how bedbugs have evolved a strain resistant to the pesticide which was supposed to exterminate the species, by those most adapted to resistance interbreeding to evolve this strain. When I say I 'saw' it, I don't mean I actually watched them at their breeding [here to tell you that I ain't no bug-voyeur!]; but I 'saw' it in the sense that it was being observed by scientists at a time that I was here on Earth & conscious.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 10:04 AM

"Are you really trying to tell me that I haven't witnessed evolution for myself? Ha bloody ha!"

Yes, I am saying that you have not witnessed evolution. I am saying that because you and I know that the required scale of time is not available to you.

You say you have witnesses NATURAL selection? Personally? I doubt it strongly. Where in the manicured and highly controlled gardens of the UK? Accounting for observation bias? Really?

But that is not the point you have not observed evolution at all, not in the way Darwin described it. Even he did not observe evolution. He inferred it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 08:28 AM

The chief mechanism of evolution is natural selection. Whilst I can't hang around long enough to see what elephants might evolve into next, I can see natural selection in action all around me. And, in the diversity of life and the inter-relationships of organisms on the levels of cell biology, biochemistry, anatomy, morphology, physiology and embryology (all of which were facets of my degree course many moons ago), I can see evolution.

Wacko, pete hasn't even read On The Origin Of Species (I won't be so unkind as to suggest that he can't read it. Yes I will).

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 07:46 AM

Confusion is arising, perhaps deliberately, because of the different meanings of these words in scientific and colloquial use.

In scientific terms, an explanation which has not been tested by evidence is a hypothesis. Once it has been repeatedly proved by evidence and becomes generally accepted by the scientific community, it becomes a theory. To be scientific, a theory must always be subject to revision in the light of further evidence; it cannot claim to be the absolute truth, and no scientist would make such a claim, but it represents our current best understanding of the truth - which in colloquial terms is all we can ever mean by "true".

In these terms, evolution is a scientific theory which has been repeatedly tested by observation and experiment. Religious ideas about creation are hypotheses - explanations which are not proved, or even provable, by evidence. Despite this, their adherents often claim them to be the absolute truth.

I will not comment on which of these approaches is the more intellectually rigorous.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 07:06 AM

Pathetic.................following Jerk the sailors lead on critisising some ones spelling is a very low blow.

Mind you, it should not suprise me with some of your more feeble attempts at being intellectualls...and failing miserably I may add.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 05:55 AM

Don't kid yourself Ian.

Pete can easily reduce his explanation of evolution to a single word:-....WRONG!

That's what crazy fundies do.

That's why they are crazy, because they genuinely believe that their "God", or "Allah", or the "Cosmic Pixie" made everything in six days, six thousand years ago and everything that science turns up to the contrary is his idea of a sick joke.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 01:36 AM

Dunno. I witnessed a charming girlfriend turn into. ...

Anyway.

Glad pete can understand the works of Darwin in two sentences. Me? I've never tried.

I do understand though that many biblical stances have been proved to be what they are. Attempts to understand the world based on the knowledge of the day.

Well we now have the knowledge of this day.

Scripture as a metaphor for those with faith? rock on. As a literal concept? Stop trying to scare the kids, there's a good chap.

Sailor boy shows signs of evolving by the way. Or at least I thought so till I realised he was just contradicting himself again.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 01:31 AM

Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but upon a candlestick, that it may shine to all that are in the house.
Matthew 5:15

So, here in the Sermon on the Mount, JC says we should NOT put our lamps under a bushel. In another passage, he says more-or-less the opposite. Depends on the circumstances.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 10:29 PM

"Are you really trying to tell me that I haven't witnessed evolution for myself? Ha bloody ha!"

One creature evolving into another? No you haven't. I would advise that you cease making a fool of yourself by trying to argue that you have. pete has the arguments, facts and intellect to tear you a new one on this one and I think he would be more than willing to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 07:47 PM

Are you really trying to tell me that I haven't witnessed evolution for myself? Ha bloody ha!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 05:09 PM

you probably should not be agreeing with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 05:08 PM

Not sure what you are saying pete. I read it through once. I think I have the gist. Knowing what I know about your beliefs, you probably should not be agreeing with you.

TheSnail is doing a perfect job of pointing out what I see as the flaws in Mr Shaw's arguments vis a vis Evolution. Basically Mr. Shaw claims more than he can scientifically. But as part of his belief system his claims are justified. He has seen enough to believe that evolution is true. He is mixing his own beliefs with Scientific Truth. He does not seem realize that THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC truth.

I obviously cannot prove anything that you are asking Mr. Shaw to prove because there is no proof. On the other hand there is oerwhelming evidence.

If I ask you "Will the sun come up tomorrow?" Knowing what you know about the Sun and the Earth, you might be very comfortable in saying "Yes" but there is no scientific CERTAINTY that it will. But you would be an idiot to make plans based on the idea that it won't come up. It would be like buying a lottery ticket for a dollar that gave you a one in a billion (or trillion maybe) chance of getting any of your money back.

Likewise the "evolutionist's" view of the mechanics of creation has much better chance of a payoff than the one you propose.

The Evolutionist imagines the patterns and forces that Darwin described and looks for new patterns and morphologies which support or refute the theory, That has lead to better techniques for breeding, shorter paths to finding effective medicines and recently to the various genome projects which have led to various stem cell projects and genetic modified medicines and other crops.

Your theory basically says Man was created, immutable and unchanging in God's image and animals were created to serve and feed man.

I can't offer you proof, but based only upon that logical starting point; How would research have evolved to the point where we are now doing research on various animals, to successfully predict human outcomes have come about? Can you tell me how we could have come to transplant pig hearts into people knowing enough to know that they would work? Or should we just take Leviticus' word and not allow the "unclean" into our bodies? If we are not related to animals at all, why are some of the parts interchangeable? Why can we splice genes from animal to human and back?

Most current medical research stems from genetics, genetics as we know it, stems from Darwin. For science and education, the theory put forth by Mr. Shaw is far far far more useful than yours. I say "Thank God for Darwin." I humbly suggest to you that any Christian with some education in science and more importantly the history of science and discovery, might say the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 01:28 PM

quite agree jack. darwinism may be reducible to 2 sentences ,understandable to a child but that hardly makes it true.
i have been pressing steve for evidence that evolution is true,ie something that could not be otherwise explained,but nothing but assertions and evasions have been forthcoming.
i note your disagreement to my suggestion that there are limits to the changes possible in any organism.i did challenge steve to cite any proven ref to mutation giving rise to new information in the genome .as i understand it only deletion and shuffling is currently observable at present.maybe you can explain your reasons for believing that novel information does favilitate a microbe to man evolutionary pathway?.assumuming that you do not believe it because you were told it was true!guess we can all do that sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 12:31 PM

"Why? Because evolution is true, that's why! "

and why is it true? Because you believe it to be true. You believe it to be true because others told you about it. You have not witnessed it for your self. It is your belief based on your trust of others.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 05:57 AM

However comprehensive the explanation, the theory still needs to fit the facts.
Throughout that post you use "the theory" and "evolution" interchangeably. Which do you mean?
Any comments on the other points I raised in my post?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 04:47 PM

Fair. I would prefer to say "the best fit to the facts so far."

Well no, actually. A theory does not attempt to fit facts. it attempts to provide a comprehensive explanation of the phenomenon that the facts belong to. A good theory would also allow predictions to be made about what new observations will reveal. It's true that a single finding could, in principle, nobble a theory. But that can no longer happen with the theory of evolution. The jigsaw is too massive and far too complete. Darwin's theory was simple and elegant (you could put the whole thing into a two-line sentence that an eight-year-old could understand). But every development in cell biology, physiology, palaeontology, embryology and genetics that has occurred since Darwin has triumphantly confirmed the theory. Evolution is an incontrovertible fact. If something pops up that shows we don't understand theprocess of evolution after all (next to impossible in that apocalyptic sense,, I'd say), then the theory is wrong only in the sense that our explanation is wrong. But the fact of evolution would survive all that unscathed. Why? Because evolution is true, that's why!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 02:19 PM

Joe Offer
So, Snail, what is it that you think is the correct thing to say about the theory of evolution, if we can't say it's "true"?

The theory of evolution is a scientific theory and is, therefore, subject to all the limitations that that implies. In particular, it cannot be said to be true. This is not my idea; it is basic scientific orthodoxy. I have quoted Professors Einstein ad Dawkins in support. Have a look here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

Here are some highlights -

It makes falsifiable predictions with consistent accuracy across a broad area of scientific inquiry (such as mechanics).

A theory which is not refutable by any conceivable event is non-scientific. Irrefutability is not a virtue of a theory (as people often think) but a vice.

And from Stephen Hawking - "A theory is a good theory if it satisfies two requirements: It must accurately describe a large class of observations on the basis of a model that contains only a few arbitrary elements, and it must make definite predictions about the results of future observations." He also discusses the "unprovable but falsifiable" nature of theories, which is a necessary consequence of inductive logic, and that "you can disprove a theory by finding even a single observation that disagrees with the predictions of the theory."

Heck, even Pope John Paul II said that evolution is "more than just a theory," so it seems that Steve Shaw is in pretty good company.

With all due respect to his late Holiness, he is wrong. (Am I allowed to say that?) It is a scientific theory which, as I think even Steve has said, is as good as it gets in science. Steve does seem to agree with him though, describing Darwinism as a "great truth".

As for me, I'd say that the Theory of Evolution is "the closest we've come to the facts so far."

Fair. I would prefer to say "the best fit to the facts so far."

I do think there's room for deeper understanding, but I believe we're on the right track.

Of course there is room for deeper understanding. The more we find out, the more we find what we don't know. That's the joy of it.