BS: Militant atheism has become a religion

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 06:20 AM

The facts of evolution are all around us in the fields, the gardens and the trees. The facts were there a long time before we got wise enough to start contemplating them. The theory is our attempt to explain those facts and identify in them a recognisable process. The truth lies in the self-evident nature of that process, but the developing theory will probably never reach an end.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 02:19 AM

Hi, Don -

Most of the time, I also feel more comfortable with nonbelievers, than I feel with people who profess a religion. But lately, there has arisen a group of doctrinaire nonebelievers who are intent on attacking those of us who profess any sort of belief, no matter what it is. They see belief as something evil. I have seen earnest expressions of hope from Mudcatters who await the day when the last vestige of religion will be stamped out and the world will be truly enlightened. Most of the time, they class all believers as blindly obedient sheep, no matter who we are and what we think. That sort of generalization is just not a fair assessment.

In general, the polite and tolerant thing to do is to listen to the perspectives of others and take them for what they are worth - not feeling any obligation to agree or disagree, but recognizing that each person's perspective may have some value. What I find distressing is when people assume what the other person's opinion is, and then attack it. So, basically, the people I disdain are those who attack me for believing, even when they have no idea what it is that I do believe. The rules of civil discussion require that we listen to what others have to say, and then respond to that and that alone, not to what we assume they think because of some label we have imposed upon them.


With you, I'd get along just grand.




So, Snail, what is it that you think is the correct thing to say about the theory of evolution, if we can't say it's "true"? Heck, even Pope John Paul II said that evolution is "more than just a theory," so it seems that Steve Shaw is in pretty good company. As for me, I'd say that the Theory of Evolution is "the closest we've come to the facts so far." I do think there's room for deeper understanding, but I believe we're on the right track.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 01:53 AM

Oh? ~~ in which connection then, see our last exchange, Hen ---

☝☝☝
ɷɷɷ

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 05:55 PM

Don was simply rolling his arse. Do keep up, The.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 05:39 PM

I suggest you ask your fifth grade teacher how the word "concerned" should be spelt, and do try to get to grips with "Wyziwyg", therre's a dear!
.,,.,.

Oops, Don ~~ they had it in for you in Bastards' HQ that time, right enuff ~~~

❧☺〠☺❦
LoL

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 03:14 PM

""Don(Wyziwg)t your remark is possibly the most stupid (even for you)that i have read on this site;""

Ignoring your lack of qualification to decide what is stupid, I simply point out that my comment is easily eclipsed for stupidity by every post from you since you unfortunately happened on this site.

Since you obviously have nothing relevant to contribute, I suggest you ask your fifth grade teacher how the word "concerned" should be spelt, and do try to get to grips with "Wyziwyg", therre's a dear!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 08:05 AM

To find the answer to that, Hen, you will need to delve deeply into the virtual cupboard which old concie-face attributes to me...

~the~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 06:37 AM

Is that a general offer?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 12:20 AM

... or you might find yourself with a smacked bottom

ɷɷɷɷɷɷ

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 12:18 AM

BTW concy ~~ please check what 'beg the question' really means, & observe what an ignorant solecism it is to use it, as you did, to mean 'raises the question'!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 12:15 AM

Nothing in the cupboard at all, ☠☠☠ or otherwise, concie-boy. My personal predilections are of course no concern* of yours, but I have never made any secret that I had an interest [personal or otherwise is no biz of yours or anyone else's except me and my 'friends'] at one time in such topics. At my present age, 81, such considerations are pretty well entirely in the past, alas!.

~M~

*'concern'. adventitious. teeheehee ☺〠☺

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 08:09 PM

Well I like that!! Self Righteouse? But i'snt it what you lot are? But why do you constantly contradict yerselves?, if you dont give a pigs bum, as you so elegantly say, why do you keep comming back at me with your very feeble comments?

Also, M theGM,it does beg the question is how you would have the address of a BDSM forum so convieniently to hand? SKellingtons in cupboards spring to the lips.

Don(Wyziwg)t your remark is possibly the most stupid (even for you)that i have read on this site;

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 05:32 PM

Page 17, and this is pretty clearly not getting anywhere...

"Time gentlemen please"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 11:20 AM

""What really concerns me is you people actually have the vote............very scary!!""

Even more scary is the concept of you writing, without a brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 09:42 AM

Nobody could ever accuse Steve of being evasive could they?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 08:40 AM

Well, one can echo it indeed; but I have a particular contempt for people who log on to a site that they know will be uninteresting to them, purely for the purpose of self-righteously telling us all so as if we gave a pigsbum for what the likes of concerened think. Something inenarrably masochistic about it, it always seems to me. I can give you a link to a good BDSM forum, concerened, if that is where your fancy lies.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 07:39 AM

Well, concerened, I can echo that.

All very confusing, Snail, but that's the bloody interwebbie thingie for you. I'll keep it tighter when I write my life story. And that's the truth. In theory.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 07:11 AM

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwnnnn!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 07:06 AM

So I was right, Steve can't bring himself to say that Darwin's Theory of Evolution is a scientific theory and therefore CANNOT be described as TRUE. Strange because this would be a totally unremarkable statement from anyone else with a scientific background. After passionaately emphasiszing the difference between evolution and the theory of evolution, you now seem to be blurring the boundaries again.

My point, totally lost on Snail, is that you're a fool if you argue against the truth of evolution.
Apart from the fact that I am reluctant to dismiss people I disagree with as fools, I quite agree. I have never tried to argue against the truth of evolution. Neither have I tried to argue against the truth of the theory of evolution, I have merely said that it is not an applicable term.

I'm not sure who the rest of that post is aimed at. Whose "alternative" to what?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerend
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 06:56 AM

What really concerns me is you people actually have the vote............very scary!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 13 - 06:19 PM

Strictly speaking, Michael, a theory sets out to be as comprehensive an explanation as possible of a given phenomenon. Whilst there is no doubt that evolution (as a natural phenomenon, which exists in spite of science) is true, I admit that it's a bit harder to say that the theory is true. Many aspects of the evidence supporting the theory are incontrovertible. In fact, evidence itself can comprise natural phenomena: this fossil of the femur of Eohippus exists. It is a natural phenomenon. It existed way before science ever did. You can't argue with its existence (and you can't argue with its age either, within limits, as the science of radio-isotope dating is pretty solid). Much of the evidence supporting evolution consists of incontrovertible phenomena. Whether it all adds up to a theory (an explanation, remember) that is true is a moot point. A theory can be tweaked or added to, and some of its tenets may one day be trashed. My point, totally lost on Snail, is that you're a fool if you argue against the truth of evolution. In order to do that you have to reject a vast amount of good, honest evidence. Worse, in putting forward your "alternative", you have to ignore good evidence and interpose utterly unsupportable notions of your own. It's just like belief in God. You have to deny reality and subscribe to utterly evidence-free concepts.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 13 - 11:24 AM

Why would you want me to?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 May 13 - 11:24 AM

It can be described as true as much as any observable process, eg the solar system, can be described as true. To call it a mere theory which cannot be called true is mere idle solipsism.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 May 13 - 10:49 AM

Quite a fundamental error and just one example of many. I drew attention to it when you first said it and you didn't take the opportunity to correct yourself then.

What I think is what I've just said.

You just can't bring yourself to say that Darwin's Theory of Evolution is a scientific theory and therefore CANNOT be described as TRUE can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 13 - 08:58 AM

Bad proofreading I'm afraid. What I think is what I've just said.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 May 13 - 08:54 AM

Ah well, let's not waste time.

A few weeks ago, in this very thread 08 May 13 - 03:04 PM you said -

We don't know that the theory of evolution is true because Darwin said so. We know it's true because he gave us real evidence to chew over, things we can go out and find for ourselves (I do it every day) and everything that's been explored in that particular field since Darwin has confirmed the theory.

so you do seem to be saying the Theory of Evolution is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 13 - 07:35 AM

Beware of people asking for straight answers when they're merely trying to set traps. I think what I've said is clear enough now, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 May 13 - 07:16 AM

Any chance of a straight answer to my question, Steve? Are you saying that Darwin's Theory of Evolution is a scientific theory and therefore CANNOT be described as TRUE?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 13 - 07:04 AM

Well, Snail, a theory is science's best shot at providing a comprehensive explanation of a natural phenomenon. As I've said a million times, you can argue with the details of the theory, tweak them, add to them and even ditch some of them as the quest for knowledge continues. What you can't do (unless you're demented) is argue that evolution does not take place. Evolution is not the theory. Evolution is not the science. Evolution was happening billions of years before that wonderful human activity called science started to happen. There was no-one around to theorise about it, gather evidence, confirm it or deny it. Evolution is a natural phenomenon that definitely takes place. It is true that evolution takes place. If you say that I can't say that, you're saying that evolution does not, or may not, happen. That's how I understand the everyday use of the word "true". Quibble away.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 May 13 - 06:02 AM

And where would I fit into that assessment Joe?

I have faith without religion, and yet, I find myself more at home with the non believers than with the religious.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 13 - 05:38 AM

How odd that you advocate tolerance and good manners, yet in the same post you imply that people you've never met (presumably, including some people who post here) who disagree with you are bigots, obsessed with "truth" and unaware of reality.

It would also appear that the irony of your accusing us of being unaware of reality is lost on you. In order to believe in God you have to suspend belief in the laws of nature and ignore a mass of evidence. So who's being "unreal"?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 May 13 - 12:09 AM

Nope. Still nothing of substance here. The bigots think they won the battle - those "militant atheists" are still doing of good job of proving the original thesis of this thread: that some militant atheists are just as obnoxious and intolerant as some fundamentalist "believers."

And both sides are completely unable to perceive a middle path, a path that is open to a variety of perspectives and able to benefit from all of them.

These fundamentalist believers and unbelievers alike, make interesting bedfellows. Both sides are obsessed with "truth" - and quite unaware of reality.

As for me, I believe that tolerance and good manners can accomplish a lot more.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 May 13 - 11:56 PM

>>'change ... advantageous to that organism.
this is probably more correctly natural selection in operation.'
.,,.
But Pete ~~ that is what 'evolution' means.<<

M that is not what I learned in science class.

"Natural selection" is one mechanism by which evolution occurs.

It certainly seems to me that a certain percentage of bugs had resistance to the chemicals and given the lack of food competition once their non-resistant peers died the quickly bread to fill the gap.

I don't agree with pete's implied point that every creature on earth was created with all its potential for change built in. But I have to concede that his evaluation of the ddt resistant insects is correct. On the other hand I think the idea of "devolution" is nonsense. Adaptation to environmental change is adaptation to environmental change, nothing more nothing less.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 May 13 - 11:53 AM

Militant Atheism myth thoroughly busted!!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 May 13 - 11:51 AM

""i was on my way out to an open mic where i done 3 songs [all of which you would detest]""

So let me guess!

"Too Much Monkey Business" and a couple of other Creationist, or anti evolution, songs?

There you have it folks!

Is there anybody out there who can swear, hand on heart, that he or she has EVER heard an Atheist sing even one song claiming that God doesn't exist, let alone three?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 May 13 - 09:13 AM

Really teribly busy so can't spend much time on this. Just want to get things straight. Steve, are you saying in your post of 26 May 13 - 08:46 PM that Evolution is a natural phenomenon that CAN be described as TRUE whereas Darwin's Theory of Evolution is a scientific theory and therefore CANNOT ve described as TRUE?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans body
Date: 30 May 13 - 03:32 AM

I'm still not sure if the issue in these interesting but ultimately dead threads is atheism or a perceived lack of respect for religions that seem to need respect in order to survive.

It was brought home to me the other week in Leeds. I was walking down The Headrow near The Town Hall and came to a road junction. There was a young man in a white shirt and Paisley tie, very respectable looking, shouting the love of God as the only salvation and handing out leaflets. I got one thrust in my hand and before binning it noticed it wasn't some loony small cult but a big one, the leaflets were printed by the diocese.

Fair enough.

In front of me was a small elderly lady and what turned out to be her daughter. The man thrust a leaflet at her and she tried not to take it but rather than it fall on the floor she took it and as she put it in the convenient bin I used, turned to her daughter and said " Chuffing GodBotherers. Council should do something about them." Her daughter said that wasn't a Christian attitude. She said that she hoped she had raised her to know better than that. Making idiots look normal doesn't help them.

A good example of the difference between having a stance and seeing a stance as irrelevant to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 May 13 - 12:15 AM

"lights under bushels".      Nice try, but no cigar.    Your record does not, shall we say, support this assertion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 13 - 07:52 AM

It might be specific, but it still doesn't make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 May 13 - 04:55 AM

i was on my way out to an open mic where i done 3 songs [all of which you would detest] and they went down well.thankyou for your interest.
i did look up articles afterward and i dont have much more to add.
what i have already said is much more specific than any of your wordy,generalization assertions.i am expecting to be away rest of week.next time i log on i will see if anything worth discussing has been posted.see yer later - maybe!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 13 - 07:18 PM

The ever-patient Michael is being quite nice to you, pete, so, in good cop-bad cop tradition, let's say, once again, that every post you post betrays the lamentable fact that you haven't a clue what you're talking about. I'd really love to ask you what you think it is I'm supposed to have evaded, but I just know I won't get a sensible reply.

And here we go again: i have come across this before and i dont have time to look up stuff right now

Well why's that, pete? What are you doing that's so important that it forces you, time and time again, to post here totally unprepared? Or are you, as I think you are, a lazy bugger who only deals in received wisdom from near-lunatics?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 May 13 - 06:58 PM

if that is what evolution is,i guess that makes me an evolutionist!
it would also make edward blythe,the creationist who wrote about natural selection before darwin did, an evolutionist also.
the difference between them was that the former wrote from what he observed,but darwin extrapolated from that to what was unobservable.
pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 05:20 PM

'change ... advantageous to that organism.
this is probably more correctly natural selection in operation.'
.,,.
But Pete ~~ that is what 'evolution' means.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 May 13 - 03:57 PM

well, the pesticide resistance is at least an argument as opposed to steve and ians assertions and attempts at belittling.
i have come across this before and i dont have time to look up stuff right now but a few interim observations.
1 the headline might say it is evolution but there is unlikely be anything suggesting any change other than an advantageous one to that organism.
2 this is probably more correctly natural selection in operation.
something switched off in the genes maybe that rendered a survival advantage probably.
3   assuming that to be the case it is devolution, not evolution [at least in the GTE understanding .evolutionists often equivocate natural selection with the GTE ],though i accept that this is not always deliberate deception.
thanks anyway for a specific argument.maybe you would like to tackle some of mine that steve dodged

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 07:31 AM

... in headline of which, pete, note the word "evolving"...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 07:29 AM

Regret couldn't put hand on that precise report, Stim ~~ fear gone to great recyclers in the sky. But I found by googling this similar recent report

http://www.nature.com/srep/2013/130314/srep01456/full/srep01456.html

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 28 May 13 - 07:17 AM

This is where my problem starts to emerge--as long as you're trying to explain stuff to Pete, I'm good, but the editorial comments wear thin.

Oddly enough, I think Pete is trying to engage to the degree that he can--which, when it comes down to it, is what we're all trying to do.

Good example, M, can you find a link?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 13 - 07:14 AM

Don't ask, Michael, don't ask...   :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 06:15 AM

And it is of course absurd to suggest that any proponent of evolution could imagine, as pete seems to think they might, that the evolutionary process is now complete. Things are evolving all the time, pete my duck: only yesterday there was a report in The Times of some pest that has evolved a strain resistant to all the pesticides thus far designed in an attempt to eradicate it. "Evolution" isn't a historical event: it is a constantly ongoing process. Can pete really not get that?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 13 - 05:37 AM

pete sez you can't see evolution because it's in the past. But every piece of information that ever swelled human knowledge was, in some sense, in the past. If I'd made some new observation of the flower structure of an orchid last Sunday, it's in the past. The evidence for evolution includes fossil lineages leading us to common ancestry, of physiological and biochemical links, radio-isotope dating, comparative anatomy and development and our ever-burgeoning understanding of how genetics works. In every case we stand on the shoulders of giants. In many cases, dead ones. From the past. Now pete can't see evolution because he thinks it's in the past. Yet he'll hang on every word of chaps of tendentious intent who lived 2000 years ago. The Famous Four of those chaps told us all about Jesus, yet they were about as close to Jesus in time as I am to Queen Victoria. They are in the remote past, yet pete believes their every word. Jesus was in their remote past (demonstrated by howling inconsistencies in their hand-me-down accounts of him). How much more "past" can you get? So wassup, pete?