BS: Militant atheism has become a religion

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans body
Date: 28 May 13 - 01:28 AM

pete says you cannot observe evolution as it is in the past.

Well, you are in the present and have not evolved beyond medieval superstition whilst the growing UK population has.

Evolution in action baby!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 May 13 - 09:21 PM

Well, Steve, maybe not Pete, but others are on board. They're just sitting on the other side where you can't see them. Pete is another story.

Sorry, Pete, I hate to say this, but you don't even have it together enough to express the Creationist/Intelligent Design questions about evolution clearly. Of course, there are good and coherent responses to them...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 13 - 06:36 PM

You could well be right, Stim. The only thing is that the choir does not appear to include Jacko, pete and Joe. Or Ron. Possibly not even that bitter fellow Snail, in spite of his rather solemn scientific tiptoeing. But, as I said, all I do is react to other people's posts. Is it fun? Er...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 13 - 06:30 PM

seeing evolutionism in the present is not an option because...well,it [supposedly] happened in the past.

Stick to creationist shite, pete. This statement alone demonstrates that you haven't a clue about evolution or anything else. Not even Mars Bars, probably.

sorry i dont have details to hand

Well shut up about it then. When I come on here to post about science I have details to hand. I accused you a day or two ago of being a lazy bugger and you've just confirmed it. You are content to rely on received wisdom from near-lunatics (I think I may be being kind). Try doing some work for yourself for a change. "Sorry i dont have details to hand" my arse. Have you no dignity at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 27 May 13 - 05:38 PM

yet another evasion steve.
just a long winded ,not to mention foulmouthed, reaffirmation of fact free assertions.
eating confectionary is an experiment i can do in the present.seeing evolutionism in the present is not an option because...well,it [supposedly] happened in the past.
mind you ,i seem to remember someone,sometime did an experiment with something like bacteria which have a fast reproducing life and so were ideal to study to see what they might change into over the years.sorry i dont have details to hand but i dont seem to remember any step on the microbes to microbiologists pathway!
surely you must have something that demonstrates evolutionary development beyond the limits of natural selection if your "evolution is true " statement is true!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 May 13 - 02:25 PM

I do get the spirit of what you were trying to say. To use a metaphor you probably aren't that comfortable with, you're preaching to the choir here. Which is to say that I don't have a problem with anything that you said in that 12:57pm post at all.

One of my empty, meaningless and mercifully brief comments is, "Creationism is just an excuse to sleep through Biology Class."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 13 - 12:57 PM

Well, it would be really hard to pick out a simple enough self-evident case to compare with evolution, and I thought someone might pick me up on the Mars Bar technicalities. Fair enough, but I'm sure you see the spirit of what I was trying to say. I suppose I could have picked just an additive-free sugar cube. The point is, the natural phenomena we see around us (the sun, the stars, the wildlife, evolution in action) are not the science. Potassium catching fire in a bowl of water is not science. The science comes in the process of us humans getting our heads round those things, explaining them. We have certain protocols, for example we need evidence that can be replicated and checked over. We are allowed to extrapolate and even guess, but a science process involving proper investigation must follow such speculative activity, otherwise it ain't science. We can't allow impossible non-explanations in, God for example, and people who shove God into science to "explain" things are ignoramuses and charlatans (anyone who argues for irreducible complexity, for example, or who says idiotic things like "I believe in evolution but God must have kicked it off"). But say what you like as long as we only call stuff science that is truly science. The very best we get in science is a theory to explain something. A theory has lots of evidence to back it up. It don't get better in science than theories. We don't do proofs. When eejits say that "evolution is only a theory" they are not using "theory" in its scientific sense, that of a comprehensive explanation of phenomena. They don't get it but they say it anyway, which makes them eejits. Like pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 13 - 12:38 PM

Oops, we crossed there.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 13 - 12:37 PM

I certainly do! Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 May 13 - 12:36 PM

For what it's worth, I like this thought, "The science is our way of explaining a phenomenon that is not science, but which is there in nature and always was and which is true." Given that, we could have a real whiz-bang knock-out drag out fight about the idea of Mars Bars being sweet--

Salient points for me would be:

1)"Sweetness" can be considered a qualitative perception, making it subjective, or, more simply, dependent on the user's experience, whereas the amount of the sweetener that the Mars Bar contained it is quantifiable,making it an objective fact.

2) Mars Bars have a high amount of sweetner, and for many people, high levels of sweetner have a paradoxical effect, that is to say, they are perceived as unpleasant.

3) Mars Bars have a variety of other ingredients, additives, and preservatives, which a number of sensitive individuals perceive as unpleasant and adverse tastes, and which may be the dominant taste that they percieve when they taste a Mars Bar

4) Mars Bars, at least in the US, are generally made with High Fructose Corn Syrup, and not sucrose (for political reasons, sucrose has a high import tariff, and is substantially more expensive.


Points 2 and 3 are not simply rhetorical devices--I've had a lot of interaction with kids who have sensory differences, and it isn't uncommon to have them get very upset about "bad tastes" in candy, cakes, and other treats.


Anyway, this insight into my thought processes should give you a sense as to why I try to keep my comments brief;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 May 13 - 12:25 PM

I am actually very sorry for those two remarks, Steve--they were intended to be droll rejoinders, and they came off as being mean. I am sure you understand how that sort of thing can happen...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 13 - 08:46 PM

i,m still interested in getting steve to defend his "evolution is true" mantra

Well you see, pete, in spite of Snail's protestations (to which I suspect you've been attaching far too much credence), "evolution is true" is not a mantra. It is a statement of the self-evident. If I say that Mars Bars are sweet, that is not a mantra. It is a self-evident truth that could be denied only by a deluded idiot with no taste buds. Let's suppose that the deluded taste bud-free idiot kept coming on here denying that Mars Bars were sweet, and li'l ol' me was stupid enough to keep posting that Mars Bars were, in fact, sweet. The fact that I had kept on repeating that Mars Bars are sweet would not have turned "Mars Bars are sweet" from a truism into a mantra. It's just me being a parrot because some bloody idiot couldn't see truth even if it reared up and bit him on the bollocks.

Now, pete, you are a man, as we all know, who wouldn't see truth even if it reared up and bit you on the bollocks. The truth of evolution is all around you, but you don't see it because you are in with a bunch of complete clods who have told you that it isn't true. Now I know that your delusion is not your own original idea, because every single time you post about what you think is the science of evolution you get it so dismally wrong that it's clear you haven't a clue what you're talking about. Of course, Snail is going to see this any minute now and probably start with his philosophising again, so, for his benefit and yours, here it is in a nutshell: evolution definitely happens. It cannot be denied, as the evidence for it is so overwhelming. That is not to say that certain aspects of this giant subject can't be modified or added to. But evolution is a natural phenomenon, not science, just as the sweetness of a Mars Bar is. The explanation of how evolution takes place is called the theory of evolution by means of natural selection. That's where the science is, all the evidence, and it's beautiful and elegant and everything discovered since Darwin has added to the story. The science is our way of explaining a phenomenon that is not science, but which is there in nature and always was and which is true. To explain why a Mars Bar is sweet would involve science. We could come up with a theory, supported by lots of evidence to do with the solubility of sucrose and the way it interacts with taste buds and the part of the nervous system linking taste buds to the brain. We could argue about the exact mechanisms involved and do more experiments. But none of that would ever lead to the denial that a Mars Bar is sweet. It is true that a Mars Bar is sweet and only a fool would try to deny it. Evolution is all around you, it's true, and you are a fool because you try to deny it. I should really be in bed. Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 13 - 08:15 PM

Well I must say I'm amazed that the guest was you. Or maybe not, as you were trying not too long ago, as I recall, to assume the role of Mudcat management's lackey, what with your threats as to what might happen to me. You're a nice bloke and all that but I'm really struggling with you here. All you ever seem to do is make rather empty, meaningless and mercifully brief comments. I look forward to a somewhat more substantial contribution that actually gives your considered and detailed opinion about something (anything will do). I invite anyone reading this to trawl back through your recent posts to see if they can be any more successful than me in finding something of note.

What continues to amaze me about this thread (apart from the silence regarding the sheer idiocy of pete and Ron, who get away with blue murder here) is that, when an atheist such as meself invokes the word of the Lord, for example about keeping quiet and humble about one's good deeds (and I do admire many, though not all, of the alleged sayings of Jesus), it can cause such a sting. The actual choice of what went in the Bible was selective enough as it is, but now it seems that its adherents are free to ignore the bits that are included that they themselves find inconvenient. Complicated folks, these Christians! Selectively ignoring papal edicts on contraception, etc., is one thing, but eschewing the word of the Lord himself... scary!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 26 May 13 - 07:52 PM

Sorry, Steve. That was me. I am not taking sides with either. I am telling you that you're not in the classroom dealing with unruly schoolboys and that your approach is old and tired. Further more, when you carry on like this, I don't think you show any signs that you know any more about anything than they do, (though I know that you do) Responding in kind really doesn't help your case.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 13 - 05:54 PM

Condescending, oh anonymous guest?? Do you know, chaps, I find it utterly amazing that anyone can take sides with the likes of pete (who consistently displays utter, wilful ignorance of science) and Ron (who displays utter, wilful ignorance full stop). Tell me, Mr or Mrs Anonymous: how else would you deal with pig-ignorance? Prejudice? Wilful stupidity? I await your tips and wrinkles...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 13 - 04:53 PM

That condescending schoolmaster act went out with "The Browning Version", Steve. Give it a rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 13 - 12:37 PM

the DNA information requires a complex decoding machine,the ribosome,but the instructions to build the ribosomes are on the DNA .and decoding requires energy from the ATP-synthase motors,built from instructions in the DNA decoded by ribosomes.

Heheh. This is pete's question. But pete doesn't understand his own question, does he? This stand-out literate sentence (relatively) is a copy-paste job from somewhere or other. I'll address it when pete asks the question again, in pete-ese English this time, showing that he understands what he's supposed to be asking. Tell us what you mean by "a decoding machine", pete! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 26 May 13 - 08:57 AM

avoiding the diversions of abuse,cheap shots and their victims i,m still interested in getting steve to defend his "evolution is true" mantra by addressing specific points.he has dodged yet another ,as though he could not work out what i was asking.
i suppose in fairness ,it may be not part of his area of expertise so we will try something else.
the DNA information requires a complex decoding machine,the ribosome,but the instructions to build the ribosomes are on the DNA .and decoding requires energy from the ATP-synthase motors,built from instructions in the DNA decoded by ribosomes..
all this sounds very complicated but it looks to me that an evolutionary explanation is excluded by a vicious circle.
i would venture that such complexity speaks of a designer rather than blind chance.
maybe steve can tell us how it could come about darwinally?
failing that i suggest that he cease from claiming that there is no evidence for a designer and maker of all .
he will probably fall back on his assurances that "science" will soon reveal the answers,but with each evasion those claims sound more and more hollow.
i reckon science is already suggesting the answer but steve and the other antitheists are not listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 13 - 05:59 AM

I responded to a stupid post from Ron. That's the man you should be attacking for lionising you embarrassingly at what he apparently sees as the expense of us atheists. And, quite frankly, if someone here asked me to go through my good works I'd consider it infra dig to respond. That makes me different to you. For what it's worth, I have a perfectly adequate picture of you in my mind already and I'm sure it's not a lot different from anyone else's picture of you. And I must say that I don't appreciate these multilateral veiled threats of retribution for my perceived lèse-majesté. Now those really are cheap shots. You can disagree calmly, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 May 13 - 03:09 AM

Steve, you don't play by the rules of civil discussion. You're really good at the "cheap shot," but you're lacking in substance.
I have avoided making a statement about what my faith is and what it means to me, because I knew that would be making myself vulnerable to just the shit that you threw at me. Since I respect Frank and he asked what it is that I do believe, I took the risk of exposing myself to attack and told him in this statement: (click). It was about as honest and balanced a statement of what is important to me, as I could come up with. And, since you are apparently a man of negligible integrity, you took advantage of the risk I took. I spoke from the heart, but you didn't give a shit about that. Guess I don't have much to say to you then.

For those of you who don't know what Stim is referring to, and to prevent the spread of innuendo, let me tell you that Clinton Hammond, and Martin Gibson got "put on the bench" for a week for serious personal attacks on the physical handicaps of particular Mudcatters. They got miffed, and didn't come back...except to peek in every once in a while. Shambles got mad about being required to restrict himself to one thread at a time on his chosen subject, so he left...and came back, and then quietly disappeared. [Note added later: this paragraph was meant to dispel any hints of retribution that might have been perceived in Stim's message. -Joe-]

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 25 May 13 - 10:37 PM

Before you go any further, Steve, I suggest you ask Clinton Hammond, Martin Gibson, or The Shambles about what it's like at the end of the path you're treading.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerend
Date: 25 May 13 - 09:50 PM

Lazy and stupid is right

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 13 - 08:31 PM

Steve Shaw says: We prefer to hide our lights under bushels, Ron

Bullshit!!!

Which is why I said nothing for a long, long time. I do what I do, because I enjoy it - not because I'm looking for any praise, and not because I'm looking for any sort of repayment in this life or the next.

But somebody asked what I do, so I told them - and I was afraid some bastard would throw that "lights under bushels" shit at me.

So, Steve, take that and your accusations of my twisting your words (when I was very careful not to), and "shove it where the sun don't shine," as they say.

-Joe Offer-

Very defensive, Joe. Call it bullshit but by so doing you're calling your Lord a bullshitter. What he said was what I said. So somebody asked you what you did so you told 'em. Well, you didn't have to, but you did, loud, clear - and at length. The light-under-bushels, as well you know, is not shit. It is a very well-founded notion, preaching as it does humility. You can make your point without giving out your credentials, simultaneously losing dignity as you do it. I had to do that on another thread when some lunatic questioned my science credentials, so I'm not innocent, but, unlike you it seems, at least I know what I did. And please don't forget, in your ire, that my post was a response primarily to Ron's usual stupidity. As they say, keep calm and carry on. Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans body
Date: 25 May 13 - 03:41 PM

Lazy and stupid. That's me.

Better than hiding behind a dubious past eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 25 May 13 - 10:19 AM

Not only a foul mouthed lout.. but a foul mouthed unoriginal oaf as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans body
Date: 25 May 13 - 08:58 AM

And to copy and paste from another thread is lazy.

Really pete? You would like to think he or she isn't mocking? Not very "christian" of you if you don't mind me saying.   That's one reason why I am not qualified to be Christian. I can't quite get the hang of hypocrisy or selective sanctimony.

I suppose concerned will have to put up with lazy cutting and pasting from me too.

Fuck off. There's a good chap.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 25 May 13 - 07:20 AM

Bless you Brother Pete...I seldom mock.

To err is human; to forgive devine..............

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 May 13 - 06:38 AM

it would be nice to think you were not mocking ?!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 25 May 13 - 06:23 AM

Well, if nothing else this thread has shown up the foul mouthed lout Musket for the fraud he undoubtedly is.He even outpaces salty imposter Seaman Staynes.

It would be easy for me to answer you back in kind Brother Musket, but I am now a born again christian who has just returned from a religouse retreat. Being in a state of grace I can now forgive you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans Ian
Date: 25 May 13 - 04:14 AM

There's a wonderful line from Sir Henry at Rawlinson End, also in Rhinocratic Oaths and other Bonzo genius.

"That'll fix it thought Ron, but he was wrong."

Once I finished laughing at Ron's post above I recalled the line. ..

Sanctimonious prat. I don't know or wish to know how Joe and his mind work but I doubt he would act any differently if he didn't have faith. I reckon that to say you can only do good if it satisfies a voice in your head is an insult to anybody, rational or otherwise, who cares about their fellow man.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 May 13 - 09:48 PM

Pastor Bob, you're a breath of fresh air amongst all these atheistical folks. How big a donation do you want?

Hallelujah!

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jeri
Date: 24 May 13 - 09:40 PM

I read earlier today that Pope Francis said it's more about the good people do. I think I like this Pope.

I think threads like this... maybe all the argument threads at Mudcat, but definitely this one that invites people to get all high-and-mighty, holier/more enlightened than thou really bring out the evil in folks.

I think everyone has an opinion. I think everyone believes things about which they can't KNOW. I think that people have to be some kind of nasty to belittle others, no matter what they believe. They can believe in God, but not Good, which makes me wonder why they bother because they're making a lie out of their belief. Anyone who continuously tries to tell others they're stupid because they believe differently and can't prove theirs is the only truth are showing they're the most stupid.

So... what I think is the true evil and stupidity in this thread, doesn't have anything to do with people not believing the right things.

It's that you think it's worth fighting about.

Very often in threads these day, I see the smartest people as the ones who refuse to get involved in the fuckwittery. Because whatever you roll around in sticks to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Pastor Bob McBride
Date: 24 May 13 - 09:34 PM

Steven Shaw, I have been reading this thread, and I see that you are a Christian who has fallen from grace. We here at the Pickle Lake Bible Church of God have welcomed many like you. You've been led away from the path of righteousness by earthly temptations. So many sinners convince themselves that they've found happiness and contentment by the light of day, only to lie awake all night, wrestling with their conscience. Is that the life you want to lead?

You say that you are a scientist. Did you know that Christ was a scientist too? I know this because there used to be a "Church of Christ, Scientist" over in Pickle Crow, but the minister had a run in with some bears and went back to Thunder Bay. This was years ago. Pickle Crow is a Ghost Town now, and the minister is selling Amway
Products and Burglar Alarms. It just goes to show you what can happen.

The Pickle Lake Bible Church of God welcomes people of all faiths. We have to, because there aren't any other churches up here. A lot of Catholics come up here and ask, "If this is a Church, where are
the nuns?" I say, "We have none." They never think it's funny. Then I have to say something to get them to come back, so I ask, "If there's only one God, why do you need more than one church?" This gets them thinking, and I give them the old "One-Two Punch" and say, "And we've got the only God in Northern Ontario."

This is not strictly true. The First Nations have totems poles full of gods. They fish with harpoons, too. Are you and that Richard Dawkins going to tell them they are delusional? Good luck with that.

Anyway, abandon your Godless ways and embrace the Redeemer today. You'll be glad you did!

Pastor Robert "Blessed Bob" McBride
Author of "Satan's Got Your Family Jewels"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 May 13 - 08:46 PM

Steve Shaw says: We prefer to hide our lights under bushels, Ron.

Bullshit!!!

Which is why I said nothing for a long, long time. I do what I do, because I enjoy it - not because I'm looking for any praise, and not because I'm looking for any sort of repayment in this life or the next.

But somebody asked what I do, so I told them - and I was afraid some bastard would throw that "lights under bushels" shit at me.

So, Steve, take that and your accusations of my twisting your words (when I was very careful not to), and "shove it where the sun don't shine," as they say.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 13 - 08:03 PM

Heheh. This thread has suddenly morphed into humour mode. Just the thing for a Friday night.

I could get all seriarse and answer pete point by point, but, on this occasion (and I reserve the right to revert to type next time), I'll just say that he's talking utter incomprehensible shit, as ever. What was it about those trees again?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Pastor Bob McBride
Date: 24 May 13 - 07:50 PM

Shane, you are a drunken sinner. God gave you two eyes to see the the way, two legs to stand on,and two hands to pull yourself up out of the mud. Instead, you're too blind to see the truth in front of you, too lame to walk toward the light, and I am too polite to even mention what those two hands of yours are doing!

It's time that you forsake that raggle-taggle band of beer-soaked internet cynics that you wallow around with in the swill of self-abuse and atheism. Cast off the chains of iniquity which you have forged from sin, lust, and avarice, and walk into the waiting arms of our sweet redeemer.

You'd better do it soon, too. The next time you roll your truck in the the graveyard here at the Pickle Lake Bible Church of God, we'll have you up on charges. We know it was you. We've got a "security cam" in the graveyard now.

Pastor Robert "Blessed Bob" McBride
Author of "Drunk No More" and "God Saw What You Did"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 May 13 - 05:56 PM

LOL! I dont think i have quoted the bible for a long time and blow me down ,steve does!
if steve wants to insist that evolution is true ,it is a meaningless statement if he cannot demonstrate it.
and whatever he does come up with - if anything - needs to be evidence that excludes an alternative explanation which might be offered from a creationist perpective.
as he claims i have not presented any evidence that supports creationism,yet conveniently forgets my recent challenges ,- i will move on.
mind you i would prefer to talk in terms of discussion rather than confrontation.
what would be your take on polystrate trees?the creationist position would be that the different strata were laid down in flood conditions quite quikly and therefore prevented decay.how do evolutionists account for the non decay over the supposed millenia between strata.
i have no doubt you have an answer and i would be interested to know the darwinist take on this.
maybe we can discuss one thing at a time rather than toss meaningless mantras around.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 24 May 13 - 02:19 PM

Militant pretty much flippin' ANYthing is a religion! Trust me. You only gotta be arownd the militant flippin' people a bit to know that. They never flippin' stop goin' on and on abowt their flippin' militant flippin' opinyon abowt it all, eh? And they figger they got the one vital flippin' truth that really flippin' matters in this word AND they know who the REAL flippin' ENEMY is too! And they are out to flippin' save or flippin' condemn anyone who sees it at all different from them.

I call that a flippin' religion. A real bad one too.

- Shane

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 13 - 01:37 PM

We prefer to hide our lights under bushels, Ron.

Take heed that you do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise you have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when you do your alms, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Truly I say to you, They have their reward. But when you do alms, let not your left hand know what your right hand does: That your alms may be in secret: and your Father which sees in secret himself shall reward you openly.
(Matthew 6: 2-4)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 May 13 - 12:21 PM

So, after over 750 posts, what have we learned?

We've learned that some of our illustrious atheists have an awful lot of time on their hands to waste.    So certainly for that time they are doing precisely zero social good.

On the other hand we have learned on these threads that Joe works about 40 hours a week in social causes:    "in a respite center for women in poverty, working with homeless people and working for a more humane and effective criminal justice system in California."


And many other Catholics are doing similar good work.

So now it's time for our wonderful atheists to tell us how long per week they spend working on causes for social good.   Also exactly what those causes are.

Until they do, they have no leg to stand on in criticizing Joe or his religion for anything.

I won't hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 13 - 08:13 PM

Four people in every ten in the US agree with pete that evolution is wrong. What does that say, do you suppose? You say that people like pete should be accommodated. I say that people like pete should be vigorously challenged and ridiculed (for their inability to accept evidence when it's staring them in the face) at every turn. People like pete want equal billing in schools for their nonsense. Don't you think that religious instruction in schools is nonsense enough without bolting creationism on to it? You say you want to find common ground with that kind of person. I'm intrigued to know how you see that happening. How will you prise open their eyes?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 13 - 08:01 PM

Steve, on the matter of your attitude to the philosophy of science, I quoted you directly. You have repeatedly banged on that "Evolution is true" because the overwhelming weight of evidence proves it.

Er, hang on a mo. I've just spotted this little beauty. I have posted God knows how many times to assert that science never "proves" anything. What I have said, and what you appear to be too lily-livered to agree with, is that the fact of evolution is supported by such a large body of evidence that it cannot be overturned. Not in every detail, of course. There is much still to be tweaked and many gaps of evidence to fill in. But that evolution happens cannot be gainsaid. Now you either agree with this or you don't (hello, pete). If you do, then you agree that evolution is true. Evolution is not science (we'll let the theory hang on to that mantle), it's a phenomenon that is as true as night following day is true. It is a truth that is beautifully explained by Darwin's theory (which, in itself, has been elegantly bolstered by all the evidence that has accumulated since the first edition of his book). Now, like the man who went to his doctor complaining that he couldn't pronounce his Fs and THs, I can't say fairer than that then. Nighty-night.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 13 - 07:43 PM

There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying that evolution is true. When I accused you of saying it wasn't, you got cross - remember? As I said, do start a thread on the philosophy of science. This thread isn't really about that, though, is it? Much as we'd all like to indulge your hobby-horse, the last thing we would want is for this thread to go all ungainly on us. Go on - start a new thread. I promise not to call you evangelical if you so do.

I'm sorry, Joe, but on a couple of occasions this past week you have misrepresented what I've said and I've pointed it out to you. I don't care whether you retract or not, but the matter stands. I do acknowledge your infinite patience with those of us on both sides who don't follow your middle ground, but I don't accept that we should ever try to seek accommodation with people like pete. You seriously misunderstand the motives of these people. It is quite important in the mudcat context that we don't allow people like him to hold sway (I feel the same about those horrid anti-Palestinians who post on those Israel threads). They are prejudiced, intolerant, ignorant and insulting to hard-working scientists. You see pete as a person basically of your ilk who can be accommodated. OK, but you are Christian, as is he, by accident of birth only. So let's imagine that pete is not an ignorant, fundamentalist Christian but an ignorant, fundamentalist Islamist (and I use that word deliberately to discriminate between them and the vast majority of ordinary Muslims). I can't imagine you exactly pleading for accommodation with him then, can you? But what's the difference, really? Isn't he as bad, or worse, than them? Isn't he just like those horrid Middle-ages Christians who burned people at the stake and waged war against peaceful Muslim nations? Or has his faux-gentle, smiling nature got you hoodwinked? The only difference between them and him is that he hasn't got a handle.

And every time you call someone like me who doesn't start any of these threads "evangelical" you just make a bloody fool of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 May 13 - 05:45 PM

Steve, on the matter of your attitude to the philosophy of science, I quoted you directly. You have repeatedly banged on that "Evolution is true" because the overwhelming weight of evidence proves it. That is what I mean by your version of science. Where is the misrepresentation in that?

All that education and they never taught you about falsifiability? Very strange.

Yes Steve, I do have a bee in my bonnet. I get very agravated by people who present a false view of science, especially when their qualifications should led them to know better. pete and Jack are of no importance.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 May 13 - 04:23 PM

Sorry, Steve. I can't see reason for a retraction. Your approach still seems to me, to be as blindsided and doctrinaire and "evangelistic," as that of the evangelicals.

There is a middle, more philosophical path. That path sees the wider ramifications, the necessary part played by philosophy and the arts - in balance with science. Those who follow that path are wise enough not to bother arguing with those who take a literalist biblical view of the origins of things.

It's futile to argue with fundamentalists and to attempt to defeat them. Better to accept the fact that they're not going to change - and try to seek peace and common ground with them so we can accomplish what needs to be accomplished.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 13 - 03:55 PM

On the evangelical note, I reiterate (Joe still hasn't retracted, I note). I don't start these threads. I find their contents sporadically interesting and I sometimes react to what other people say. Dictionaries out, chaps. See for yourselves whether my approach chimes with the accepted definition of evangelism. Then ask yourselves whether you're merely indulging in that time-honoured yet deluded practice of branding atheists as equivalent to believers, only opposite.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 13 - 03:49 PM

"Are you off to see Sheffield Wednesday?"

"Aye, lad, but I'm off to see Liverpool Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday an' Tuesday."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 13 - 03:46 PM

I don't think any such thing. Off you go to join the ranks of the Joe-Jacko-pete school of serial misrepresentation.

Apropos of my scientific background, I have a degree in biological science from Imperial College. I taught biology in secondary schools for 25 years, much of that time as head of department, and became an assistant chief examiner (after ten years' distinguished service as an assistant examiner) in A Level biology for the University of London. I tell you this not in order to brag but in order to put this perpetual canard to rest once and for all. Snail, I have never given you "my version of science" (simply put, you're not worth it, internet stalker that you be) so why don't you just crawl away and do what those hermaphroditic gastropods do best (or, at least, would if they could).

Interesting that Jacko and Snail home in on li'l ol' me in spite of egregiously dreadful pete posts. Had I lacked my scientific background I'd probably have concluded that they were both closet religious fundamentalists. Instead, I'll just have to settle for the far more likely explanation that they're just bitter, jealous blokes with bees in their bonnets.

As for you, Musket, Sheffield Wednesday, I'm told, are so named in order for football aficionados to have another six days to follow Liverpool. As for harmonica players not buying their round, they're doing you a favour. If we ever try to carry more than a single pint at a time we always end up dribbling in the beer.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 May 13 - 03:20 PM

Musket
I reckon it may be that he is fed up of people speaking of superstition as if it is a form of scientific discovery.

Which is why it is important to make it clear what science is, what lies at its core - the scientific method. Steve rejects this completely - " I have no time for your displays of philosophical musings over the meaning of science.". He thinks it is simply a matter of accumulating evidence but without the underlying philosophy, evidence is meaningless or can mean whatever you want it to.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 23 May 13 - 01:39 PM

Perhaps truth doesn't leave a slime in its wake?

If Mr Shaw, who can speak for himself, sounds evangelical, I reckon it may be that he is fed up of people speaking of superstition as if it is a form of scientific discovery. If it were, you would find that each scientific discovery puts it further from reality and more into the metaphor that many more rational people are comfortable with, and on that basis call themselves religious.

But of course, that would discriminate against the slightly unhinged brethren, and so it goes....




(He is idiosyncratic in his ramblings though to be fair. His football leanings are weird and I have yet to find a harmonica player who is anywhere near the bar when it is his shout.)