BS: Militant atheism has become a religion

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerend
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 05:19 PM

Now now Dears, put your toys back in your collective prams and play bonny
Remeber you are growm ups now, at least some of you are with the usual exception of Roger The Cabin boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 02:55 PM

Well..

Apologise for calling me a liar and who knows?

I was fascinated by watching the documentary where the BBC reporter had enough with the religious spokesman who tried wearing him down and then called him a liar.

Whilst I am not angry like the BBC bloke was with the scientology spokesman, Salty Jack has moved on to that level.

Why stop now? can't wait to see what you try next.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 02:35 PM

Musket sans self control.

"Taking the piss out of busted flushes such as you isn't really fun any more."

Yet you continue to make the attempt.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 02:27 PM

My money appears safe. I'd hate to sell the jet skis.

Taking the piss and lying aren't the same thing. Religious leaders can differentiate. They'd have problems raising funds and indoctrinating children otherwise.

Taking the piss out of busted flushes such as you isn't really fun any more. Lying has never been needed because basically I don't lie. You see, you don't need an imaginary friend to be one of the good guys but you need an excuse such as religion to justify otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 12:43 PM

Nice try sunshine. Why should I take your word for any of that?   According to "Musket." Musket just takes the piss.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans truth
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 12:29 PM

Here's a competition. The first person to show where I have lied anywhere at any time either on these threads or where I have said have ever lied gets a cool £1, 000, 000.00.

Just to help. I have never said god exists or that lack of religion means anti religion. I have never lied about being religious in order to get an education for my children nor told journalists lies.

If Jack the sailor says I am a liar that's ok though because most other things he says are absurd waffle borne of ignorance and stupidity so why would anyone believe I have ever told lies just because the discredited old fool says so?

Any chance of an apology?

Thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 10:39 AM

crumbs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 05:52 AM

Jack the Sailor, is sorry that the man who demands that his "secret" be kept even though he regularly spills it himself has a low opinion of Jack the Sailor.

JtS is shocked! Just shocked! that Ian Musket is calling Jack the Sailor names. But JtS is not concerned because, according to Musket, everything Musket says is just "taking the piss." Ho ho ho. It is all in good fun! Musket is simply teaching JtS a lesson in manners right?

The person behind Jack the Sailor is not monumentally stupid enough to lie to a journalist about his real name then to make up an even ruder less rational, morally bankrupt character easily associated with that name. Is Ian Mather?

For reasons listed above person behind Jack the Sailor is unconcerned about what "Musket" or "Mather" thinks about him. Speaking of being in a room with children Jack the Sailor hopes for the sake of Ian & Musket that at least one of them has learned something about the consequences of childish behavior online, especially taking for granted that someone will aid and abet their duplicity after being abused by him for three weeks. But I doubt it. If I were a betting man, I would bet that Ian Mather is arrogant enough to get himself in a scandal over this and probably will be fired for this.

It won't be Jack the Sailor's doing. It will be Ian Mather's. Ian Mather can stop lying and protect himself whenever he wants. Maybe Ian Mather wishes to heed Max's advice.

"We care about your safety but we are not in the business of protecting you. Your kind and civil behavior is your best protection."

Maybe he does not.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans Ian
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 03:15 AM

Ok.

Ian Mather thinks Jack the Sailor is a prize prick. Ian Mather is of the opinion that the coward behind Jack the sailor is unsavory and shouldn't be left in the room with children.

Happy now?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 07:16 PM

So what's your real name, Jacko? I think you should put up or shut up about others'. Coward.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 02:47 PM

Ian Mather tell me please what incentive there is for anyone on this forum to protect your persona of Musket, when you repeatedly tell us that is its sole purpose is so that you can protect yourself from the consequences of verbally abusing us?

If Musket cares one whit about the reputation of Ian Mather. He had best end his quixotic quest or keep a more civil tongue. If you want to continue to abuse people, keep switching names as Krinkle does or find a more covert way to protect your identity. Continuing as you are with your English pals occasionally and consistently calling you "Ian" or "Mather" is no protection at all. If either you or Musket think that any journalist worth their salt could not put you two together you really need a reality check.

Here are the terms and conditions of the Mudcat.com.

"Anonymity and Guest Posting are permitted.

You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty, or either FOR or AGAINST that of-what-we-do-not-speak.

Be aware of what personal information you decide to share within the forum. It is public. Unlike Facebook, there is NO PRIVACY at all.

We care about your safety but we are not in the business of protecting you. Your kind and civil behavior is your best protection."

Does it say anything about protecting personae specifically created to be unkind and uncivil? What should your expectations be about having your unkindness and incivility protected?

This is not the friendly little sandbox you wish it to be. I know that from hard experience. Max has warned you. I have warned you. Heed the warnings.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 02:12 PM

I suppose the best thing about admitting you are taking the piss is that you don't have to think twice before posting. Judging by Sailor Boy's comments, any post that doesn't resonate with his view of the world is everything he is accusing me of.

No, you silly sailor. I have not got a simian nom de plume. I haven't got an alternative reality either. I do have a name that whether I like it or not, is judged in public arena based on careful judgement and opinion. I used to use my name on mudcat till a journalist asked if that was me.

I suppose as Musket, in the same way as you being Jack the Sailor, it is easier through the quasi anonymous chat room style of this site to let go, stretch and perhaps not be quite as diplomatic as you have to be normally. Suffering fools gladly can be frustrating, but is a trait necessary at times. There are never those times at Mudcat. If you or anybody else says something daft, I can laugh and call you a dozy bugger. Likewise, you can to me. If I think you or anybody else is being outrageous, I can say so and reply in kind.

So... I have always been curious by the well documented view that there is a concerted effort amongst Christians to get back to the high position the church had in Western society many years ago, taking on tactics such as claiming persecution and claiming lack of religion is an organised effort to replace religion with a secular form of religion, in the soviet sense.

So when I see you riding up to the stereotype, I saw an excellent opportunity to test it.

You know what? I reckon there is something in it because you are pure text book and Olddude is reducing his own credibility by joining in. That's sad.

I love the crap you send back, and shaking my head with a smile is light relief. Just lay off the dragging the day name into it eh? That is reserved for music and reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 10:30 AM

They are playing my song!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 10:26 AM

Heheh. Said without a trace of irony, Wacko, me old salt!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 09:06 AM

That's it Steve, push down that bile! Cherish it. Wallow in it! Feed it. Maybe one day it will grow into a cute little tumor in a sailors cap. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 08:13 AM

They are finally sussing you out Jerk the Sailor!!!.

Check it out!!! Now, Apart from his usuall quasi socialistic ramblings and his smug and patronising posts, he appears to have learnt to use the cut and paste function on his computor.Well open my paint box and tickle me pretty pink!!

Fess up Barnacle clems.. you arent really an salt stained academic is you?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 07:55 PM

Dammit no, Michael. I will not sully the associations of a lovely hornpipe with thoughts of an intemperate and clearly troubled nitwit hereabouts...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 05:09 PM

& while on the subject, what shall we do with...?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 05:08 PM

Why, Steve: it must be Jolly Jack Tar.

What else?!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 04:51 PM

Hey, Wacko Jacko. You appear to like spouting other people's real full names when you feel got at by 'em. What your real full name, eh, Wacko? Come on now, lad. I feel got at too and I want to use your real full name, don't you see? Jack V. Lad? Jack O'Alltrades? Jack B. Nimble? Jack Sh*t? But worry not, me old sea dog. We don't mind if you carry on slagging off real names while you hide behind cowardly anonymity. It don't half cast us in a good light next to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 03:15 PM

Musket is Ian Mather's Chongo then eh?

Heaven forbid that things are said on the Mudcat that don't conform to Ian Mather's idea of what is right and all the angels that can dance on a pin cannot protect the heretic from the wrath of Ian Mather's imaginary friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 02:39 PM

That's two people. Not one person with an imaginary friend. It is disconcerting but Musket doesn't drive to Birmingham most days interfering with healthcare.

Neither does he insult people for lacking delusion then argue rational people must worship an old bloke in Oxfordshire.

He takes the piss. Chiefly because without it, some fairly outrageous comments would go unchecked and superstition would retain the respect it demands and doesn't deserve.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 12:24 PM

It is a little disconcerting Sam, especially when he acts like he is two different people.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 11:46 AM

Musket doesn't provide health services.

What he does do is respond to the stupid assertion that there is such a thing as militant atheism and not believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden means you support this presumed movement.

What that has to do with health services, I have no idea. Mind you, there is nobody "like Musket." If there was, I would pay them royalties. Sailor Boy keeps complaining that I am just taking the piss, largely on the basis that I am just taking the piss.

I do however find your post disturbing. Do you have a role in mugging old ladies perchance? Or gross indecency in public parks? (Dogging I believe it is called.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Sammy
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 11:18 AM

The fact that somebody like Musket has any role in providing health services for other human beings is a bit disturbing, even for skeptics.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 10:31 AM

Obama Moves Lacto-Socialist thread
From: Jack the Sailor - PM
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 10:04 AM

Jackbooted Kenyan Neo-Colonial thugs have tried to move this important news from the public eye.

Be vigilant! Important news must be spread!



Subject: BS: Obama wants to Socialize Lactation
From: Jack the Sailor - PM
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 04:29 AM

In an unprecedented big government plan his plan is to issue breast pumps, to all lactating women collect the milk in predetermined holding facilities then redistribute the natural bounty to any citizen who has an NRA sticker on their car.

"I'm gonna milk those mothers for what they got and give those crybabies what they deserve." He was quoted as saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 10:23 AM

Yawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 10:19 AM

Defending the absurd takes tactics. Pointing out absurdity takes reason.

You can't recognise anything I say in anyone else's articles in the tactical sense because all the comments and observations I make are just that. Comments and observations. I have no position to defend nor hobby to push.

I merely point out that lack of belief is not a belief. If some say it is, then that is similar to you being religious and so were crusaders, human sacrifice merchants etc. Just because some idiot calls himself an atheist chaplain or whatever, doesn't mean that rational people with no need for a comfort blanket defend atheist chaplains.

You just don't get it. You like to push the dogma you follow but the minute you have to get defensive, you start name calling, quote trawling and seeing how far out of context you can get in order to say that your branch of delusion has any relevance outside of your own mind. If I were so unsure of my faith, I'd find another faith, presuming I felt my mind needed one.

I'd pm Goofus if I were you. He likes to think he is a shrink, (there, using an American term just for you.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 09:54 AM

Have a nice day Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 09:51 AM

I haven't got a tactical bone in my body. I just type what I think. I don't have to worry about being tactical because you never say anything I need to get tactical about. Other people of faith, on the other hand, are far more challenging and reasonable than you are. You merely appear to think we're all out to persecute poor old Jacko.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 09:37 AM

"Wacko, if I 'd really wanted to equate the two I would have said "one is as bad as the other" or words to that effect"


Steve if you had up to this point shown any intention to communicate with your words, I might believe you.

I don't. You were not trying to make a point. You were trying to change the subject. This thread was started because I recognized a little bit of you and Musket in de Waals observations of Atheist dogmatists. You have proven that point far far beyond what I could have imagined at the time. You are all tactics and no thought. When the lack of thought behind your dogma is demonstrated you bring up more dogma. You (as a group) have repeated tried to prod me into defending everything from the Crusades to practices in east Africa that have a lot more to do with ancient superstitions (I mean the actual word rather than the Dawkins definition) than religion. (Try finding if a man's penis touches a clit it will burn like fire in any Abrahamic text.)   Just because some religious person committed some atrocity somewhere else does not mean your neighbors are not a hell of a lot more qualified than you and Dawkins to decide how to raise their kids.   

You are an atheist dogmatist. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 09:22 AM

One of the priests at my secondary school came up with a definition of sin that's always stuck with me, the very opposite of the moralising tosh about breaking rules that Jack came out with: sin is a loss of love. I still like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 09:19 AM

Yeah. I was at a funeral of a friend of mine a couple of years ago. The vicar (his wife was Christian so she organised a Christian funeral - hmmm, that default thing again...) declared that he'd led such a good life (which he had) because of his Christian background. Well he hadn't been near a church for forty or more years except when he'd been dragged there unwillingly for weddings and funerals. He'd led a lovely yet Godless life, shock horror, vicar!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 07:47 AM

"Equating the two is the kind of seed that Dawkins places in damaged minds."

Mmmm... Ever wondered why religion reps spend time with the sick and the needy? Why they speak of providing sanctuary? Saving fallen women etc.

I was at a christening last year and the mother was a teenager, and is raising her baby as a single mum. The insensitive vicar, despite this being a private service, got one of her usher people to get up and give a speech, aimed at the mother, about how she was "fallen" and had "sinned" but Jesus came into her life and all is well now. Distressing, wrong and when I (gently) pointed out to her afterwards that is was not subtle, never mind unasked for, the vicar said she would pray for my soul.

I don't know what all the fuss was about women vicars, with the exception of Dawn French, they seem as bad as the male lot....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 07:31 AM

Wacko, if I 'd really wanted to equate the two I would have said "one is as bad as the other" or words to that effect. But I didn't. Thanks to Don for the Jehovah's Witnesses example. I hadn't thought of that, and I suppose it has a bit more punch. The point I was making, which everyone bar Jack is seeing, is that a number of things are done in the name of religion that I don't accept are beyond the need for us to talk about, whether we're inside religion or not. Nearly every boy born into a practising Jewish family will be circumcised. I could have used the more emotive term "mutilated", which is accurate, but I didn't. I think that's worth talking about in terms of that child's human rights possibly being violated. I think the same applies to female genital mutilation, which is far worse in every regard I can think of. That's OK to say, I think. I can't equate physical abuse of these kinds with potential mental abuse in terms of severity and I haven't tried to. But I can equate them in terms of potential violation of a child's human rights. A child is not less human because it's a child and I don't think we should regard its rights as being on hold until it's no longer a child. I'm saying I don't think it's right for a parent to decide which rights they can apply to their child and which they can sideline. I think a child has a human right not to be misled by adults, to be told to believe that myth is truth and that if you demur there are sanctions ranging from ostracism to hellfire. I accept that there are non-authoritarian ways of putting that stuff to your kids that will make them think (and give them the opportunity to reject) instead of stopping them from thinking, but I'm not into giving religions a blanket copout clause. Therefore I think it's legitimate to talk about it and not simply allow religion to cosily hide it away in the false guise of "letting parents decide what's best for their kids".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 07:17 AM

You may have posted in the correct thread this time, but it is still irrelevant.

Mind you, let's play pedantic shall we? You use the word OR. Wherever you got that from is recognising that superstition does not have the monopoly on the word "moral."

Also, where I am sitting and indeed where you are sitting, there is no religious law. No such thing, as law requires compliance and you haven't been fined for not attending church here since Cromwell.

Oh, and its offence. I'll accept offensive, but the noun is with a c. There's a good chap.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 07:02 AM

Sin
a : an offense against religious or moral law.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 06:57 AM

Quick! Make sure you don't get paranoid!!! Get your bible out and start praying in case that Anti Christ zoology practitioner starts infecting your mind!!!!!!!!!!

"female genital mutilation is a grievous wrong.

Sunday school is not."

From your viewpoint. From the viewpoint of many cultures, it may be the other way around. Either way, it is using religion as a convenient cover for inflicting control on minors. Children can flourish without the lies and guilt you know. Many do.

I get it. Atheism is like other religions to you. It needs pushing away so your Christian vision is the prevailing one. You appear capable of throwing together sentences with words of more than two syllables. How did it screw your mind so much that you can defend goodness as being coupled with religion whilst dismissing other religion as savage?   I have news for you. Lack of religion is neither one nor the other.

It is reason. It is enjoying life for what you see now, not what was promised in the next impossible stage by those wishing to control you. It is life without the hang up, guilt or bastardisation of the word sin.

A fecking men.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 05:49 AM

Don't be a berk Don, of course he is equating the two. Haven't you been following what he is saying?   He is retreating from his long held position that Christian education is child abuse and "a grievous wrong" to use a Dawkins phrase and tossing out the "female genital mutilation" bomb to cover his tracks.

female genital mutilation is a grievous wrong.

Sunday school is not.


There is the line. That is the difference. Equating the two is the kind of seed that Dawkins places in damaged minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 05:31 AM

Luckily, we have laws to prevent that. You make a good point Don. UK law assumes children cannot give informed consent in such matters and loco parentis prevails. Where children do have capacity, they can consent but anything where they will be harmed through omission, parents, legal guardians under The Childrens Act etc would be held to account for harming them. (The Health and Social Care Act 2008 (Regulated Activities Regulations 2010))

UK law recognises that children are not capable of understanding the consequences of faith in the real world. Civilisation seems to agree that there are no such things as religious children.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 05:22 AM

""So now sending you kid to Sunday School is on a par with female genital mutilation? What DID those priests do to you to make your emotions scream in your head at you like that? What sends a man into such a state of surreal madness?""

Don't be an ass Jack.

He isn't equating them in terms of severity. He is making the point that they are each rituals considered necessary in their respective religions, and asking you where you draw the line in what parents should do to their children in the name of faith.

Taking another, pehaps more apposite example, do you think it is right to allow a child to die rather than permit a blood transfusion?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 04:51 AM

Ah! The famous, "if Christians have ever jumped off a bridge then Blather can too" defense.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 04:45 AM

I suppose if I were a Christian, I would never misinterpret or use biblical justification for my deeds out of context....

Translations of ramblings of translations.. (A quote by the way from a Victorian Archbishop of Canterbury.) Funnily enough, I do know what you are supposed to take it to mean, in the same way as explaining to young colleagues about the proof of the pudding... However, people take things to mean what it suits them to mean.

Especially when invoking scripture to make your point.

But not, it would seem, when mistaking irony....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 04:19 AM

Only in the Blather Mather Dictionary of Conscience Free Lies does suffer mean to cause another to suffer.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 03:30 AM

On your side, Musket, as you know. But, semantically now ~~ 'suffer' as used by Jesus had nothing to do with 'making them suffer', it just meant 'allow' in C17 English: "Suffer little children to come unto me and forbid them not" [Luke 18.16] simply means, "Let the children come & listen to me and don't prevent them".

Retained that meaning right up to Jane Austen at least; Miss Bates in Emma, who has fallen on hard times but retains her dignity, thinking that Mr Perry the apothecary might not charge for attending her niece Jane, says "That cannot be suffered, you know. Mr Perry has a wife and children to support and is not to be giving away his time."

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 02:22 AM

I suppose when the medieval scholars claimed to be translating ancient stories and slipped in the line "suffer the children, " they weren't being ironic.

There are many people who as adults decided it was all bollocks yet as children were made to comply with weekly worship etc. Even as a brain washing idea it fails. Or at least the Christian flavour seems to. Many find it harder to opt out of some cults, Islam being an example because it is more likely to be shunned by your family whilst people with Christian parents only have to consider if their parents feel let down. Either way it is unnecessary.

If either of my children started smiling too often and wearing sandals I would at least have the comfort of knowing and supporting their open choice rather than thinking I was responsible. I hope I taught them the garden is wonderful without having to refer to fairies at the bottom of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 10:32 PM

>>I've never said anything different.<<

But more importantly You haven't said it until now.


>> Parents bring up their kids in whatever way they like and I'm not going to argue with that right,<<

You have condemned people for doing so.


>>
but there is a conversation to be had if there is room for opinion on whether some aspects of that upbringing may be damaging. You wouldn't expect most people to shut up about female genital mutilation, for example, seen by some as an appropriate part of bringing up kids. <<

So now sending you kid to Sunday School is on a par with female genital mutilation? What DID those priests do to you to make your emotions scream in your head at you like that? What sends a man into such a state of surreal madness?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 07:57 PM

So teaching religion is "brainwashing" kids but not "child abuse".

Perhaps you'd care to tell us what you think the difference is so that we'll know what you're talking about. I don't recall trying to make that distinction, as you're obviously implying.

We're still waiting for your admission that it is up to the parents---and nobody else --to determine what sort of religious education--if any--a child receives.

I've never said anything different. Parents bring up their kids in whatever way they like and I'm not going to argue with that right, but there is a conversation to be had if there is room for opinion on whether some aspects of that upbringing may be damaging. You wouldn't expect most people to shut up about female genital mutilation, for example, seen by some as an appropriate part of bringing up kids. That's physical abuse. There is more than a suspicion that force-feeding dogma about an almost certainly non-existent God might just be a form of mental abuse if executed in a particular, authoritarian manner (one trademark of big religion, unfortunately). Religious indoctrination has a severe effect on the world. Boston may yet appear to be a recent example. It might just be everyone's business occasionally. So you don't get the right to keep us quiet about it. But no-one I know has ever suggested banning parents from bringing up kids in religious faiths, me especially, but that doesn't mean I can't try to provoke them into thinking about it.

As Joe and others have pointed out, there are lots of religious people who are willing to let others live their lives without imposing any religious requirements on them.

This does not apply to anyone who forces children to go to church, to sing hymns, to bow their heads in prayer or to make them go to faith schools. You don't get to make millions of children your convenient exception to your cosy live-and-let-live doctrine. I'm not saying don't let them live their lives, etc., but I am saying I have an opinion and well we do believe in free speech still, don't we.

You, on the other hand, seem champing at the bit to stop all religious instruction---including of that of children of religious people.

Never said it, never will.

The trouble is, Ron, you skim over a lot of posts from a lot of people, can't really remember the details but are far too lazy to go back and look, get a vague picture in your head of someone you think you disagree with and end up saying ridiculously inaccurate things. Yep, you're right down there with wacko, pete and Goofus all right.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 03:39 PM

My God! I've just come down below the line for the first time. I'd absolutely no idea that many people gave a shit about religion!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 10:50 AM

"You, on the other hand, seem champing at the bit to stop all religious instruction"

That's what it seemed like didn't it. But his most recent statements indicate to me that it is probable that Mr Shaw was simply repeating Dawkins' memes without realizing the implications of his statements. That is a very common with using dogma without thinking it through.