BS: Militant atheism has become a religion

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 04:38 PM

Having read Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, and Dennett it is my opinion that the only major thing that they have in common is wanting to protect their ability to speak their minds on this subject. When they do this, however, they are charged with being "militant" because religious people have been telling non-believers for years to just shut up. Those days are gone.

A religion has to have adherents that fundamentally agree on many points. Atheists don't do that. They think for themselves. I think this is an ideal goal in raising children. There may be some atheists who try to indoctrinate their children with their ideas, but this is not the usual case. Some atheists have gone so far as to allow their children to go to Sunday School just to see what it is or to take them to a church service for their education.

"Militant" is used as a pejorative that means angry or aggressive. The two terms are not necessarily together in meaning. One can be aggressive without rancor but the idea to use "militant" is a device to discredit atheists and their respective non-belief.

Even if Atheism were a religion (which it is not) hypothetically, it would have encountered the most vicious form of religious intolerance equivalent to Mosque burning, Temple desecration or Sikh shooting. For this reason, I am thankful that atheism is not a religion although there are too many religious fanatics that treat it this way.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 02:46 PM

>>>If you must quote out of context, try to fit in the bits where I state I do not see myself as an atheist.<<<

It is not the one or two times you have said that that gets to the truth of the matter it is all the time that you inadvertently admit to being an atheist.

>>>Atheists can be spotted by their ability to tell people how to raise kids.<<<<

I say that you and Steve are trying to tell people how to raise their kids. You generalize that to all atheists and include yourself.

YOU brought up the term atheist in this thread. You and Steve have been doing this all along in many of the threads, where I have been trying to stick to "Neo-atheist, New-atheist or Dawkins, Mr Shaw and Musket.

>>where I state I do not see myself as an atheist<< you haven't been paying close attention, I've implied that the three of you are hypocrites for doing this a few times.

Put is this way. If it walks like an atheist, it talks like an atheist, it defends the idea of being an atheist and it takes it personally when atheists are insulted....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 02:32 PM

CD!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 01:37 PM

Yes. British.

Although Michael Palin is a far nicer person than me.

If you must quote out of context, try to fit in the bits where I state I do not see myself as an atheist. Plenty out there. Irreligious yes but atheist is a term others use not me. I don't describe myself as such. In fact I nod appreciatively at the comment Einstein said on the matter.

A huge difference between being aggressive and taunting sailors.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 01:13 PM

My! but you are thick Musket. I said that you two are "outside the main stream" because you do it. You two don't do that because you are atheists. You do it because you are so in love with your own opinions and insults that you have no idea how stupid they sound.

You both are like the vendor in the Parrot shop sketch.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 01:00 PM

Read all about it!

Atheists can be spotted by their ability to tell people how to raise kids. Sailor spills the beans!

You know, that's a bit rich making a mental leap from my comment that my eldest paid me the compliment of saying I taught him how to think rather than what to think. Your observation about people's ability to be more forthright in forums than in real company meaning you question my honesty is a little beyond reason but no matter. After all, the object of the exercise is to identify atheism as a Creed so you can sanctimoniously denigrate it as a lesser belief than your own.

Well I've got news for you. You've failed.

On a more positive note for you, you prefaced this thread by stating your thesis (sic) has a hypothesis that states the more aggressive towards religion you are, the more strict your religious upbringing.

As you keep using me as an example of outside of mainstream I can inform you that to my knowledge I am not unique and have never had religion nor a religious upbringing. My parents did but saw the folly of inflicting it on us.

I suspect there are more people than ever in the same boat. When my granddaughter is christened soon it will be tradition and family event rather than taking any interest in what the vicar is actually saying. Churches tend to delude themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 12:38 PM

(live and let live) in other words, presumably, not evangelising and indoctrinating people,

In whose other words? Are you that stupid? No you can't be. Someone has given you access to a computer.

You can't practice "live and let live with your children" You can't be that much of a moron. You have to be playing the Monty Python argument game!

The conflation my dear man was with living privately and "loud mouthed bishops"

More Pythonesque humour I presume?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 11:43 AM

Mr. Shaw and Mr. Musket are certainly outside the main stream. "Live and let live" is very unlikely in a world where they are telling others how to raise their kids.

Gosh, no-one's telling anyone how to educate their kids in matters religious (er, slightly different from "raise", but we can let that pass). Just saying that if you wish to define yourself as live-and-let-live, in other words, presumably, not evangelising and indoctrinating people, one would logically expect that to extend to their children as well. If you send your kids to schools which make them bow their heads in praise of or in supplication to a fellow who might not exist, with prayers and hymns expressing unsupported certainties about him, and tell them that it's disrespectful at best and sinful at worst to demur, you're hardly practising a philosophy of live and let live with them, are you?

" First, do they conduct their personal religious affairs in private, or do they subscribe to loud-mouthed organisations that have bishops"

My affairs aren't private if a bishop goes on TV?

A beautifully disingenuous conflation there. Heheh. At least you were honest enough to include the original to show us all what a clot you can be.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 10:17 AM

Mr. Shaw and Mr. Musket are certainly outside the main stream. "Live and let live" is very unlikely in a world where they are telling others how to raise their kids.

Though it is a testament to the power of Mr. Dawkins Dogma.

" First, do they conduct their personal religious affairs in private, or do they subscribe to loud-mouthed organisations that have bishops "

This is a another novel line in the sand. My affairs aren't private if a bishop goes on TV?

Its pretty clear that Shaw and Musket have issues far beyond religion. Earlier in this thread Musket said he felt free to say things here that he could not say in real life. He called it being "honest."

Perhaps such honesty should be confined to the office of a licensed professional where sedatives can be introduced when it gets out of hand. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 09:26 AM

""Ali Razeghi, a Tehran scientist has registered "The Aryayek Time Traveling Machine" with the state-run Centre for Strategic Inventions"".

And, some thought it was impossible:)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 08:43 AM

Mudcat believers are far more willing to live and let live than many Mudcat atheists are.

Ah, that old chestnut. Well, a believer who truly "lives and lets live" has two hoops to jump through. First, do they conduct their personal religious affairs in private, or do they subscribe to loud-mouthed organisations that have bishops on every other news bulletin and religion advertised large all over our streets and towns? Second, do they let their children "live and let live" by waiting until they are old enough to understand, or do they start to indoctrinate them while they're still toddlers with baby Jesus and firm it up from there all through their childhood? I'm afraid there are plenty who complain that they should be allowed to live and let live who fail both these tests.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 08:34 AM

"that some of the same"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 07:49 AM

As I've noted, I have no dog in this fight.   I have no idea of the truth or falsehood of any religion. Neither, by the way--- despite the more-rational-than-thou stance of Mr. Shaw, Musket, and other stalwarts who attack religion and the religious--do they.   

It's however possibly of interest that the some of the same arguments they use to discredit Catholics and Catholicism, especially sexual abuse by some priests, were used by the Nazis circa 1935-36 in Germany---for exactly the same purpose.

Does that make Mr. Shaw, Musket, et al. Nazis?    Somehow I doubt it.   But the approach is, intriguingly, precisely the same.

And it is just as fair to blame all or most atheists, or atheism, for the Nazi attacks on religion (or those by Stalin and Mao) as to blame all or most Catholics, or Catholicism, for sexual abuse by some priests.


Gee, I wonder what kind of response this news will get.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 09:31 AM

A bit deep if you ask me.

I prefer it on the other thread where you get curious as to whether I commit adultery with a chicken.

The Albert quote by the way is one I have been known to use in my real life. Believing in dinosaurs is however a bit like believing in my ability to scratch my arse. You quote pete as being enlightening. Clapton help us. If that bugger had his way, fairy tales would be taught at the level of science and if that isn't child abuse, I fail to see what is. Perhaps you should have a read of the young age creationist thread before you choose your mates. He and his mates are trying to hold back our understanding. Humans evolve the same as any other fauna or flora, and superstition is playing its last dodo encore.

If you want an adult conversation, I suggest you first do the following;

1. Find out what BS means as a prefix for these threads.

2. Find out what an adult is.

3. Set out an action plan for becoming one.

I don't even pretend to know more about science than pete. However, I have yet to post a thread displaying contempt for how "science" derives its data. Nor have I pounced on an irregularity and tried filling the gap with my imaginary friend. So on balance, I may not know more or less than him but I doubt I am shredding my PhD thesis just yet.

(On the subject of science versus fantasy, that's a thought. A central plank of my thesis is based on a hypothesis that has since been revised. If I had written about theology rather than physics, I would have been able to argue my theory still stood. Hence the contempt rational people have for fantasy dressed as fact.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 07:36 AM

Musket. People can have an adult conversation as long as they respect one another and present their opinions honestly.

Name calling, taunting, ridicule, admitting that you have no reason to be honest, all things you have done on this one thread thread, have no place in adult conversation. Did I read you saying you are better in real life? I hope so.

"Poor bloody dinosaurs, first they get wiped out physically then they get wiped out metaphorically. "

Knowing about dinosaurs, believing in dinosaurs, doesn't make you and adult. Three year old children believe in dinosaurs. Two year old Christian Children think Dinosaurs think they are purple and can sing.

You think you know more scientific fact than pete. Unless he is very modest, perhaps you do. But that does not necessarily make you smarter. It certainly doesn't make you wiser. And everyone on this thread, probably on this forum knows whose behavior is more adult.

As an illustration of the comparison between you and pete in terms of varied intellectual talents. I offer this cartoon. I'm pretty sure that you are the monkey. Which animal pete is does not matter.

Monkey Musket

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 04:43 AM

Hello Sailor!

You say that pete is having an adult conversation. Is this the same pete who thinks the earth is young because the Bible is a better judge than scientific discovery? Poor bloody dinosaurs, first they get wiped out physically then they get wiped out metaphorically.

Dawkins isn't my hero, you are. I doubt he could ever argue bollocks so succinctly. I suppose the only thing worse than claiming you are consistently logical is having some idiot accusing you of being so. Strange logic indeed. Especially my firm belief that Sheffield Wednesday are the greatest football team ever. I doubt logic would support my stance nor influence my belief.

You haven't thought your insults through have you? Never mind, nobody seems to take you seriously. The main difference between us being I have no desire to be taken seriously. Im having a laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 06:39 PM

an-open-letter-to-the-church-from-my-generation

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 05:22 PM

Guest,

I think, I hope, that Jim is just blowing off some over due steam. He is IMHO for the most part blaming the people responsible, the Nuns Priests, Bishops and Popes who condoned and conducted the wrongdoing. The spillover to other religions and even to me is understandable. His experience and Ebbie's and mine are very different. I haven't seen a dark side of religion that is nearly that dark. I wish I could say more about those topics but I don't have the knowledge or experience. I guess I am grateful that I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 05:14 PM

"The issue here is whether you see no belief as a belief. "

The issue here is whether one is suffering from the delusion that in these discussions it is possible to have "no belief." Dawkins, your hero is not so arrogant as to say that he is free of beliefs. That he is absolutely on firm logical ground. He simply says that he BELIEVES that the probability of him being wrong is very small. He uses a joke by Douglas Adams to illustrate this.

The Dogma that Musket (or whichever of our more arrogant Mudcat Atheists happens to be speaking at the time) is a creature of logic while "believers" are bound by their beliefs has been thoroughly debunked in these threads. They have been shown to fall far short of "Spock-like" logic as Dawkins

The apparent fact that he clings to his delusion that he is talking logically is an indication of the power of the Dogma.

pete and Rob Naylor are having an adult conversation. They are exchanging information that they have gathered with the goal of enlightening and persuading. Perhaps you have information to contribute Musket. I think it would be much

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 04:21 PM

All the ills of the world have to be somebody's fault, don't they Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 03:51 PM

Ok. I shall make a contribution based on giving my perspective on Pete's contribution above.

There is a huge difference between attacking a belief and attacking a position. The issue here is whether you see no belief as a belief. Compounded to that is the issue of arbitrary belief in the metaphysical being put forward as a hypothesis for gaps in scientific understanding for no reason other than an interpretation of ancient stories.

It's apples and pears. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 03:30 PM

i suppose it depends on how "attack anothers belief" is defined.if not believing that anothers position is correct and true,then the whole spectrum of posters,or near all of us,are "attacking" anothers beliefs.if on the other hand it is more narrowly defined as verbal abuse,mockery,belittling,accusations of lying of persons, etc,i suspect that a detailed survey of posts would confirm ron davis opinion,an opinion he ventured without any of the negative traits outlined above.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 03:10 PM

""Is shaving your head a hairstyle""?


Well, yes, especially if it is a Mohawk, also referred to as a mohican or an "Iro"- (even though, historically the hair was plucked out rather than shaved)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 03:10 PM

Is shaving your head a hairstyle?

Of course it is!

Minimalist coiffure!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 02:48 PM

"I see nothing wrong with militant atheism."
You still haven't explained "militant atheism" beyond a little name-calling, which you and your fellow theists have indulged in in spades.
You protested "conspiracy theory" when I suggested you had opened several threads so you could hop from one to another to avoid awkward questions, yet this is exactly what you are doing.
You asked me a number of questions on the 'atheist' and have studiously avoided my answers, which I have put below.
I know many Christians who pride themselves in their honesty; as you have made a point of accusing others of being dishonest why are you behaving so underhandedly?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 03:30 AM

"I have seen Atheists say that if you believe in God you are stupid and mentally ill."
Pretty small stuff compared to a lifelong of brainwashing from the day you begin to think and speak. Some sort of hard words are to be expected by somebody who climbs into the minds of our children and, using fear and coercion implants an irrational doctrine there that has been passed down the millenia.
"I think "lets work together in peace"
With who exactly, Atheists and believers, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, all Christians....?
Inter-religious dispute has been and continues to be one of the great causes of hatred and a major threat to world peace on this planet - not much signs of lions lying down with lambs there.
Sounds to me as if you are mustering your forces for a 'last battle' in a war you are losing.
In my lifetime Christian churches have climbed into bed with some of the greatest monsters in history, Hitler, Mussolini, Pinochet, Salazar, Franco, Papandreou, Videla, Massera, Agosti......
"Did the C of E say "if you don't go to church you'll. (go to Hell or whatever?)"
Now your talking brand-names - the threat of hell and eternal damnation is part and parcel of every religion - sometimes it comes wrapped in a velvet glove, sometimes it is presented in all its magnificence.
"You are a real piece of work."
Not a bad "piece of work" yourself.
Evasion is the most common form of lying on all these threads and you have proved yourself a master of the art. You have not addressed once the effect of implanting myths and legends as facts into the minds of children, you have skirted around the behaviour of the church towards the faithful, particularly and most horrifically children, (hinting darkly 'it was them wot dunnit' "Did the C of E say....") - a form of inter-religious one-upmanship that continues to infest our lives, and you have whined at being called a few names at a time when the world is torn apart and threatened with extinction by inter-religious disputes.
You are not the victims here, and to claim you are is the greatest lie of all.
Whatever failings they may have, Dawkins and co have my gratitude for their robust attempts they are making to break the stranglehold of religion - I hope I live to see it, but I'll probably toasting my feet on the hobs of hell you have invented to terrorise people into submissive obedience.
Why not surprise us and answer some of the serious aspects of religion rather than dodging behind unfounded accusations of 'bullying' and 'persecution'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 01:14 PM

Is shaving your head a hairstyle?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 10:48 AM

Frans de Waal is a non-believer. He is an "apathist" by his own definition and declares he doesn't care about whether a god exists or not.

Ron, I think you would have to provide chapter and verse on your criticism. I see brickbats being thrown on both sides of an argument that has never been clarified for if it were, there wouldn't be so many brickbats being thrown around like you just did by your accusation about some on Mudcat.

"Fair play" is in the eye of the beholder. There is a reason why religion is being held under scrutiny today and it's because it hasn't historically provided fair play for everyone. This causes some to react emotionally and perhaps not with clear communication. But there are reasons for these reactions that need to be explored.

"Militant atheism" is a canard that is used as a brickbat to stifle the concerns of those who hold non-belief. It is an attempt to stifle and tell others to shut up. The purpose of any discussion is not to stifle those with whom we disagree but to bring out in the open the concerns of different points of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 06:53 AM

One of the classic hallmarks of dogma is intolerance of those who believe differently than the speaker. This is often shown by attacking others' beliefs.

On this score, quite a few Mudcat atheists fit the bill far better than Mudcat religious believers.    Mudcat believers are far more willing to live and let live than many Mudcat atheists are.

If by some chance somebody disagrees with this assessment, I'lll be glad to provide (more) chapter and verse.

As I've noted before, I am not religious--just interested in fair play for those who are. Which, I observe, is not a major concern of many Mudcat atheists.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 05:13 AM

I see nothing wrong with militant atheism. IMHO people are entitled to their opinions.

The article simply makes the point that some militant atheists have become dogmatic. I certainly think that Mr. Dawkins has dogma and I think I have seen some of that dogma has spread to this forum. I am not even saying that having dogma is a bad thing. I gladly defend Mr. Dawkins right to his dogma even though I agree with almost none of it and I certainly dislike his approach.

What puzzles me is the denial that the dogma the defense by Mr Shaw and others, with arguments similar to "there is no atheist dogma" (even though both Dawkins and Shaw are not atheists by their own definitions), It all science and reason blah blah blah.

I say that in the very interesting article at the beginning of this thread that equally disses Christian and Atheist dogma, written by the atheist Frans de Waal, the point is well made that militant atheists have dogma. But I think it falls far short of making the case that militant atheism is a religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 04:38 AM

Some atheists are 'militant', some just want to get on with their lives. So what else is new? I would imagine that Dawkins, who published a book with what was surely intended to be a provocative title, would admit to being, if not a 'militant', at least a proselytising atheist.

Myself? Sometimes the one, sometimes the other ~~ matter of such variables as mood, occasion, atmosphere, opportunity, degree of acquaintance... I am probably being a bit 'militant' on this thread; but that's what this forum is for, isn't it?

It's not a new phenomenon. Shelley was sent down from University College Oxford in 1811 for writing & publishing, and placing in all the local bookshops, a pamphlet called The Necessity Of Atheism.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 04:09 AM

" Militant atheism just means that instead of hiding their convictions, they are expressing them and offending all who are not atheists. "

You are making progress. all week you have been saying that there is no such thing as Militant atheism.

""militant atheism" is a term that is used like "anti-Semitism" today, to silence rather than open a discussion. "

I am curious as to who has been doing this. I posted an article with the term in the title by one of your favorite authors to open a discussion about it. Who has been using it to silence people?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Apr 13 - 09:00 PM

There have always been many different atheists without monolithic views. There will always be pushy Christians (called evangelists), Muslims, Jews, Buddhists etc. Militant atheism just means that instead of hiding their convictions, they are expressing them and offending all who are not atheists. Some are obnoxious as are some Christians, Muslims, Jews etc.

There are varying degrees of so-called militancy. Not all are obnoxious but adamant in their view that atheists should not be attacked because they don't believe. No atheist can hold a public office in the US today. That is an attack on civil liberties. Kids in high schools are vilified and cornered by their high school principals.

Going after atheists for their views is great sport among certain pushy religious people who use the "militant atheist" epithet to silence opposing views to their own.

If atheism is a religion then why not offer the same tolerance toward it as toward any other religion (of course I don't think it is a religion).

There is a good point to be made that many new "born again" atheists are still clinging to the religion that they once held but this is not true of every non-believer.

Dogmatism on any level is abhorrent, religious or not. Still, "militant atheism" is a term that is used like "anti-Semitism" today, to silence rather than open a discussion. "Islamophobia" is another one. "Terrorist"....another. It used to be "communist".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Apr 13 - 06:39 PM

I did read to the end Musket!

Not technically ... I only read to the "arse"

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 07 Apr 13 - 03:31 AM

'Good people of all creeds who dislike bigotry'

Good coffee drinkers who dislike caffeine?

I'll tell you this Jack, you occasionally give good entertainment value if nothing else.

Still not up to debating my earlier points? never mind, far better than making you look an even bigger arse.

(Just think, this time you have the whole message to get through before I name call you. If ever you get as far as debating rather than pontificating, we might even get bloody progress. ..)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 10:07 PM

Things have soured over the past ten years , and I'm not sure if I could have the same debates today as I did thirty years ago. Steve's agnostic positions have been politely expressed as far as I can see , and I don't think they would have evoked such a hostile reaction here ten years ago . But Steve is wrong to think that there is no such thing as a new militant atheism out there that is goading religious people , getting their backs up . The same atheists that published the anti- Islam Danish cartoons in 2005 in Ireland in the name of toleration , a few years later started organizing crucifixion parties on Good Friday - again in the name of toleration.

If there is a brand of atheism that gets its oxygen from goading, then I distance myself from it. Likewise, those bloody idiots who thought it was a great idea to publish those cartoons are not in my camp. A good atheist is not interested in demonising. A good atheist is only interested in saying that their particular stance is predicated on their understanding of the evidence for and against the existence of God. As God can never be either proved nor disproved, all any of us have is evidence. It's down to you whether you accept tradition, witness, hearsay, edicts, visions and the sayings of holy men as evidence, or whether you set the bar higher. In the latter case, no "evidence" ever makes it and never will. That does not disprove God, but it makes rational people see that the likelihood of his existence is so small as to be completely inconsequential.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 05:03 PM

I empathize Don. My eyes have been hurting. Its made me cranky.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 04:35 PM

""Don T,

I am pretty sure Brendan was talking to Steve Shaw when he said that. Are you sure he was referring to you?""

You are absoutely correct and once more I apoogise to Brendan. I lokked at what appeared a single paragraph, and saw my name midway down, then made an unwarranted assumption, not looking at the name at the top.

I think this throat infection and the meds are causing brain fade.

Perhaps I ought to take a break, but when your breathing is so bad tha you can't lay down for too long, there's bugger all else to do. Tapping a keyboard is the only thing that doesn't make me breathless at the moment.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 04:06 PM

Your dad made a good point Ed.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 03:48 PM

I would say amen to that Jack, but , you know......mick

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 03:27 PM

We are going to have to disagree about whether Steve has been polite. Thank you for you perspective on "new militant atheism out there that is goading religious people , getting their backs up "

I think that the biggest problem is not between Atheists & Christians. It is between Atheist agitators, and Muslims and good people of all creeds that dislike bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 03:25 PM

My Dad used to say that "you should not search back too far in your family history, because you may find you are closely related to a monkey". :)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 03:19 PM

My Dad used to say that he didn't believe in evolution because he isn't a monkey.

I explained to him that he isn't. He accepted the explanation and reinforced the idea that he did not come from a monkey.

I believe that evolution is the probable origin of man and that the bible stories are allegory. I don't call my dad "delusional" to bully him out of his beliefs. Even if I thought that, it wouldn't be polite would it?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 02:31 PM

Thanks for clearing that up, Jack. My point in mentioning my Muslim friend was that atheists and religious people can argue and still get along. I'm not sure if I used the word "delusion", but I was arguing the general atheist line against Ibrahim at the time - I would certainly have used a word like it . He answered by saying that ,if I imagined I was a monkey , what was the point in arguing with me. "Go away monkey!"

Things have soured over the past ten years , and I'm not sure if I could have the same debates today as I did thirty years ago. Steve's agnostic positions have been politely expressed as far as I can see , and I don't think they would have evoked such a hostile reaction here ten years ago . But Steve is wrong to think that there is no such thing as a new militant atheism out there that is goading religious people , getting their backs up . The same atheists that published the anti- Islam Danish cartoons in 2005 in Ireland in the name of toleration , a few years later started organizing crucifixion parties on Good Friday - again in the name of toleration . Some of the images they published last year were worse than the ones on the indymedia site here:


http://www.indymedia.ie/article/99569?search_text=crucifixion%20party&userlanguage=ga&save_prefs=true

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 01:14 PM

"you idiot."

I stopped reading after that.

I hope you don't mind.

Next time I'll probably stop reading after "musket."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 01:06 PM

Ah yes. When you jumped to a conclusion once. You have to be a reader of The Perishers to have seen the joke at the time and believe me, the male prostitute bit was your construction not mine you idiot.

So... You accept everything I put after hello sailor then? Whether or not you read it, which you did because earlier you were looking for bits to quote out of context, so you do read what I put, I cannot make the mental leap that you understand it.

Your earlier piss poor comments suggest not...

If you want to discuss male prostitutes, pm Akenaton. He seems to have a bottim fixation judging by his continuous reference to male on male sex.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 12:51 PM

"Hello Sailor! " from Musket, the voice of "reason."

Oh yes! The greeting that you said was a joke about male prostitution. please forgive me for reading no further. I just don't see the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 12:47 PM

"Perhaps that is what religious people find offensive - atheists effectively calling them liars "

mayomick Please forgive me for expecting you understand that the claim that I had quoted was the "dubious" claim that I was referring to.

Here is is again.

"Perhaps that is what religious people find offensive - atheists effectively calling them liars "

and again.

"Perhaps that is what religious people find offensive - atheists effectively calling them liars "

HERE is an indication that I did not think that your conversation with your Muslim friend was dubious.

>>>mayomick, You have made my point perfectly.

Mr Dawkins uses the word delusional the same way that your Muslim friend to ridicule you and disrespect you as a partner in the "debate." <<<

Do you see that I used that "claim" to reinforce my point? I did! I did because it does. Your Muslim friend was a better man than Dawkins is IMHO.

I am sorry that I was not clear. Do you have any questions? Would you like for me to explain again?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 12:37 PM

"Please cite the page number of his book where he declares this statement. I would like to see that in context with what he says as well."

I see an article in Salon with this exact title "Militant atheism has become a religion" with his credit as author.

I haven't been making the claim that "Militant atheism has become a religion" If you had bothered to read the whole thread you would know that I distanced myself and tried to distance de Wall. But he did allow that title to be published in his name. Then you linked to the same article with a similar title making the same claim about Militant atheism. SO IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THOSE WORDS, YOU NEED TO TAKE IT UP WITH HIM and Salon.

I am sorry if it bursts your bubble about Dr de Waal, but that is just the way things are.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 12:33 PM

"But, surely, Christians are effectively calling Muslims liars because Christianity does not recognise Mohammed as a prophet of God!"

Not at all it's more like they are calling Muslims mistaken , unenlightened , wrong – delusional if you like!- but not liars . There's a distinction between those who tell an untruth because they're mistaken and those who knowingly tell an untruth.

For example . Somebody above wrote to say that my account of a conversation with an old Muslim friend was "dubious". If I had been making it all up , that would make me a liar. But if I genuinely believed that this conversation had taken place, but was mistaken in my reporting of it , or if my memory of the conversation was only the memory of a dream I once had , that wouldn't make my recounting of the imagined/delusional conversation here a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 12:11 PM

Hello Sailor!

When reason knocks on the door of an empty house, childish taunts are an effective calling card. However, pointing out that blasphemy is or isn't a crime, however technical, doesn't help. It is a crime in many countries., and as you and I are in different countries, thank Clapton, you should be more careful with your statements. In any case, it is sn example of how in the past religions have had privilege, and the UK state schools farce are an excellent example of political pandering.

I am not immoral any more than you are ugly. I haven't seen your face and you are no judge of my view. You can agree or disagree but if it takes telling a sanctimonious headteacher tthat you believe in fairies to get a good education for your child, the system has an issue, not the parent. I doubt you ever read the licence agreement for software despite clicking that you have done. I have yet to meet anybody who has, although some ruddy pedant here will claim they do.

They are not Christian schools, they have to teach on the basis that all and no religions are part of society. Whether a child has been raised to believe in things that are beyond the laws of physics is irrelevant.

Keith said something about lying for your children. So... when you tell them God exists and he is watching them, that isn't lying then? Increasing their paranoia and making them feel guilty about enjoying life isn't child abuse? telling them what to think instead of teaching them how to think isn't the saddest indictment you can think of?

I love hypocrisy. It teaches me never to get complacent. To always challenge the malign influence of those who advocate restricting others. Those who wish to judge and those whose so called faith is so fragile they think mocking reason is clever.

I'd pray for you but sadly, there is no one to hear it.