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BS: Militant atheism has become a religion

Jack the Sailor 24 Mar 13 - 10:26 PM
Little Hawk 24 Mar 13 - 10:48 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Mar 13 - 11:02 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Mar 13 - 11:12 PM
Little Hawk 24 Mar 13 - 11:17 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Mar 13 - 11:29 PM
Jack the Sailor 24 Mar 13 - 11:35 PM
Jack the Sailor 24 Mar 13 - 11:47 PM
Stilly River Sage 24 Mar 13 - 11:58 PM
Mrrzy 25 Mar 13 - 12:18 AM
Ron Davies 25 Mar 13 - 12:58 AM
Joe Offer 25 Mar 13 - 01:39 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Mar 13 - 02:10 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 25 Mar 13 - 03:29 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Mar 13 - 05:03 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 25 Mar 13 - 05:18 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Mar 13 - 07:07 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Mar 13 - 07:31 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 25 Mar 13 - 07:32 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Mar 13 - 07:33 AM
Greg F. 25 Mar 13 - 08:13 AM
John P 25 Mar 13 - 08:49 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Mar 13 - 08:49 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Mar 13 - 09:08 AM
Richard Bridge 25 Mar 13 - 09:10 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 25 Mar 13 - 09:50 AM
GUEST,Jack Sprocket 25 Mar 13 - 09:59 AM
Lighter 25 Mar 13 - 10:14 AM
Bill D 25 Mar 13 - 10:54 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Mar 13 - 11:17 AM
Megan L 25 Mar 13 - 11:49 AM
pdq 25 Mar 13 - 12:58 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Mar 13 - 01:06 PM
GUEST,Stim 25 Mar 13 - 01:09 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Mar 13 - 01:16 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Mar 13 - 01:23 PM
Musket 25 Mar 13 - 01:32 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Mar 13 - 01:34 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Mar 13 - 01:35 PM
Musket 25 Mar 13 - 01:46 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Mar 13 - 01:53 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Mar 13 - 02:02 PM
Musket 25 Mar 13 - 02:11 PM
Wesley S 25 Mar 13 - 02:18 PM
bobad 25 Mar 13 - 02:25 PM
GUEST,Stim 25 Mar 13 - 02:35 PM
Greg F. 25 Mar 13 - 02:37 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Mar 13 - 02:42 PM
Bill D 25 Mar 13 - 02:43 PM
Musket 25 Mar 13 - 02:57 PM
theleveller 25 Mar 13 - 03:06 PM
John MacKenzie 25 Mar 13 - 03:46 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Mar 13 - 03:46 PM
GUEST,Stim 25 Mar 13 - 03:49 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Mar 13 - 03:51 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 25 Mar 13 - 04:14 PM
theleveller 25 Mar 13 - 04:24 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Mar 13 - 04:24 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Mar 13 - 04:30 PM
Lighter 25 Mar 13 - 04:55 PM
sciencegeek 25 Mar 13 - 05:11 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Mar 13 - 05:34 PM
Lighter 25 Mar 13 - 08:20 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Mar 13 - 08:57 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Mar 13 - 09:08 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Mar 13 - 09:11 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Mar 13 - 09:13 PM
Greg F. 25 Mar 13 - 09:16 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Mar 13 - 09:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Mar 13 - 09:38 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Mar 13 - 09:52 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 25 Mar 13 - 10:37 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Mar 13 - 11:39 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Mar 13 - 11:43 PM
Jack the Sailor 26 Mar 13 - 12:05 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 26 Mar 13 - 12:07 AM
Jack the Sailor 26 Mar 13 - 12:08 AM
TIA 26 Mar 13 - 12:11 AM
Jack the Sailor 26 Mar 13 - 12:12 AM
Jack the Sailor 26 Mar 13 - 12:21 AM
Joe Offer 26 Mar 13 - 01:04 AM
Jack the Sailor 26 Mar 13 - 01:47 AM
theleveller 26 Mar 13 - 04:24 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 26 Mar 13 - 05:50 AM
mayomick 26 Mar 13 - 09:23 AM
theleveller 26 Mar 13 - 10:14 AM
Ed T 26 Mar 13 - 10:29 AM
mayomick 26 Mar 13 - 11:58 AM
Ed T 26 Mar 13 - 12:26 PM
saulgoldie 26 Mar 13 - 12:45 PM
GUEST,Stim 26 Mar 13 - 12:57 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Mar 13 - 01:00 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Mar 13 - 01:18 PM
theleveller 26 Mar 13 - 02:19 PM
MGM·Lion 26 Mar 13 - 02:36 PM
saulgoldie 26 Mar 13 - 03:01 PM
Little Hawk 26 Mar 13 - 03:08 PM
GUEST,Stim 26 Mar 13 - 03:20 PM
Jack the Sailor 26 Mar 13 - 03:36 PM
Jack the Sailor 26 Mar 13 - 03:40 PM
Jack the Sailor 26 Mar 13 - 03:45 PM
GUEST,Stim 26 Mar 13 - 05:11 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 26 Mar 13 - 06:26 PM
Jack the Sailor 26 Mar 13 - 06:41 PM
GUEST,Stim 26 Mar 13 - 07:19 PM
Ed T 26 Mar 13 - 07:48 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Mar 13 - 08:58 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Mar 13 - 09:08 PM
Jack the Sailor 26 Mar 13 - 09:21 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Mar 13 - 09:47 PM
Ed T 26 Mar 13 - 10:02 PM
Ed T 26 Mar 13 - 10:09 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Mar 13 - 10:22 PM
Jack the Sailor 27 Mar 13 - 12:01 AM
GUEST,Stim 27 Mar 13 - 01:02 AM
GUEST 27 Mar 13 - 01:39 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 13 - 07:04 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 13 - 07:08 AM
Musket 27 Mar 13 - 07:16 AM
Little Hawk 27 Mar 13 - 09:26 AM
GUEST,guest from Sanity 27 Mar 13 - 11:48 AM
Jack the Sailor 27 Mar 13 - 12:06 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Mar 13 - 12:43 PM
GUEST,Stim 27 Mar 13 - 12:46 PM
mayomick 27 Mar 13 - 12:51 PM
Jack the Sailor 27 Mar 13 - 12:54 PM
Jack the Sailor 27 Mar 13 - 01:21 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 13 - 01:21 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 13 - 01:56 PM
Jack the Sailor 27 Mar 13 - 02:01 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Mar 13 - 02:15 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 13 - 03:00 PM
bobad 27 Mar 13 - 03:01 PM
Musket 27 Mar 13 - 03:13 PM
Jack the Sailor 27 Mar 13 - 04:04 PM
GUEST,Stim 27 Mar 13 - 04:33 PM
Stringsinger 27 Mar 13 - 05:06 PM
Jack the Sailor 27 Mar 13 - 05:19 PM
mayomick 27 Mar 13 - 06:59 PM
Ed T 27 Mar 13 - 07:26 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 13 - 07:28 PM
GUEST,Stim 27 Mar 13 - 09:11 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 13 - 09:35 PM
Amos 27 Mar 13 - 11:22 PM
Jack the Sailor 28 Mar 13 - 03:25 AM
Jack the Sailor 28 Mar 13 - 03:30 AM
Musket 28 Mar 13 - 06:34 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Mar 13 - 07:09 AM
GUEST 28 Mar 13 - 08:36 AM
GUEST 28 Mar 13 - 09:36 AM
Little Hawk 28 Mar 13 - 10:02 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 28 Mar 13 - 10:35 AM
Amos 28 Mar 13 - 11:39 AM
Little Hawk 28 Mar 13 - 11:43 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Mar 13 - 01:05 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Mar 13 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 28 Mar 13 - 01:49 PM
Little Hawk 28 Mar 13 - 01:55 PM
Jack the Sailor 28 Mar 13 - 02:22 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Mar 13 - 02:35 PM
Jack the Sailor 28 Mar 13 - 03:25 PM
Ed T 28 Mar 13 - 03:51 PM
GUEST 28 Mar 13 - 05:45 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Mar 13 - 05:45 PM
GUEST 28 Mar 13 - 06:53 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Mar 13 - 07:46 PM
GUEST 28 Mar 13 - 07:53 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Mar 13 - 08:11 PM
GUEST 28 Mar 13 - 08:20 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Mar 13 - 08:30 PM
GUEST, 28 Mar 13 - 09:04 PM
GUEST 28 Mar 13 - 09:41 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Mar 13 - 09:54 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Mar 13 - 11:49 PM
GUEST 28 Mar 13 - 11:58 PM
Jack the Sailor 29 Mar 13 - 12:03 AM
GUEST 29 Mar 13 - 12:29 AM
Jack the Sailor 29 Mar 13 - 12:38 AM
GUEST 29 Mar 13 - 01:13 AM
GUEST 29 Mar 13 - 03:02 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 29 Mar 13 - 03:05 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Mar 13 - 09:26 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 29 Mar 13 - 03:36 PM
GUEST,GUE 29 Mar 13 - 03:44 PM
Ron Davies 30 Mar 13 - 06:36 PM
Greg F. 30 Mar 13 - 08:08 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 30 Mar 13 - 10:41 PM
MGM·Lion 31 Mar 13 - 02:35 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 31 Mar 13 - 03:27 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 13 - 05:11 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Mar 13 - 06:37 AM
MGM·Lion 31 Mar 13 - 07:10 AM
Stringsinger 31 Mar 13 - 10:30 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Mar 13 - 11:28 AM
Amos 31 Mar 13 - 11:54 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Mar 13 - 12:22 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 31 Mar 13 - 12:56 PM
Musket 31 Mar 13 - 01:00 PM
Don Firth 31 Mar 13 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 31 Mar 13 - 01:44 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 31 Mar 13 - 01:46 PM
Don Firth 31 Mar 13 - 01:47 PM
Don Firth 31 Mar 13 - 01:49 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 31 Mar 13 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 31 Mar 13 - 01:51 PM
GUEST,Futwick 31 Mar 13 - 02:05 PM
Musket 31 Mar 13 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 31 Mar 13 - 03:17 PM
Don Firth 31 Mar 13 - 03:43 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 31 Mar 13 - 03:58 PM
Don Firth 31 Mar 13 - 04:00 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 31 Mar 13 - 04:36 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 31 Mar 13 - 04:40 PM
Stringsinger 31 Mar 13 - 06:06 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 31 Mar 13 - 08:32 PM
Stringsinger 01 Apr 13 - 11:01 AM
Amos 01 Apr 13 - 11:13 AM
Jack the Sailor 01 Apr 13 - 12:58 PM
Jack the Sailor 01 Apr 13 - 01:07 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 01 Apr 13 - 01:19 PM
Jack the Sailor 01 Apr 13 - 01:24 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 01 Apr 13 - 01:30 PM
Jack the Sailor 01 Apr 13 - 01:34 PM
Jack the Sailor 01 Apr 13 - 01:35 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 01 Apr 13 - 01:40 PM
Ed T 01 Apr 13 - 06:14 PM
Jack the Sailor 01 Apr 13 - 06:39 PM
Jack the Sailor 01 Apr 13 - 06:41 PM
Ed T 01 Apr 13 - 08:07 PM
GUEST,Stim 01 Apr 13 - 10:13 PM
Jack the Sailor 01 Apr 13 - 11:16 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 02 Apr 13 - 03:51 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 02 Apr 13 - 10:59 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Apr 13 - 11:24 AM
Stringsinger 02 Apr 13 - 11:44 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 02 Apr 13 - 12:17 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 02 Apr 13 - 01:28 PM
GUEST,Stim 02 Apr 13 - 01:40 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 02 Apr 13 - 02:25 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 13 - 02:53 PM
Jack the Sailor 02 Apr 13 - 03:02 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 02 Apr 13 - 03:22 PM
Jack the Sailor 02 Apr 13 - 03:48 PM
Ed T 02 Apr 13 - 03:58 PM
Jack the Sailor 02 Apr 13 - 04:09 PM
Stringsinger 02 Apr 13 - 04:50 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Apr 13 - 01:53 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 13 - 04:14 AM
Jack the Sailor 03 Apr 13 - 06:44 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 13 - 08:02 AM
BrendanB 03 Apr 13 - 11:12 AM
Stringsinger 03 Apr 13 - 11:46 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Apr 13 - 02:06 PM
Little Hawk 03 Apr 13 - 02:20 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Apr 13 - 02:51 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Apr 13 - 02:54 PM
Ed T 03 Apr 13 - 03:34 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Apr 13 - 03:54 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 Apr 13 - 04:09 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 Apr 13 - 04:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 13 - 05:35 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 Apr 13 - 06:21 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Apr 13 - 07:15 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Apr 13 - 07:25 PM
JohnInKansas 03 Apr 13 - 07:29 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Apr 13 - 02:03 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 04 Apr 13 - 09:06 AM
Stu 04 Apr 13 - 10:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 13 - 10:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 13 - 10:15 AM
Stringsinger 04 Apr 13 - 11:53 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 04 Apr 13 - 12:07 PM
Lighter 04 Apr 13 - 12:52 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Apr 13 - 02:09 PM
GUEST 04 Apr 13 - 02:39 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Apr 13 - 03:07 PM
BrendanB 04 Apr 13 - 04:07 PM
Ed T 04 Apr 13 - 04:17 PM
bobad 04 Apr 13 - 04:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 13 - 05:22 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Apr 13 - 05:48 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 13 - 05:57 PM
BrendanB 04 Apr 13 - 06:05 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Apr 13 - 06:11 PM
Joe Offer 04 Apr 13 - 06:26 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Apr 13 - 06:31 PM
Joe Offer 04 Apr 13 - 07:45 PM
Ed T 04 Apr 13 - 08:32 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Apr 13 - 08:38 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Apr 13 - 09:00 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Apr 13 - 09:08 PM
Joe Offer 04 Apr 13 - 09:25 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Apr 13 - 09:27 PM
Ed T 04 Apr 13 - 09:44 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Apr 13 - 09:50 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Apr 13 - 09:50 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Apr 13 - 09:50 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Apr 13 - 09:53 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Apr 13 - 09:56 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Apr 13 - 10:12 PM
Joe Offer 05 Apr 13 - 01:27 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Apr 13 - 01:31 AM
Joe Offer 05 Apr 13 - 01:51 AM
Joe Offer 05 Apr 13 - 01:58 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Apr 13 - 02:01 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Apr 13 - 02:13 AM
Joe Offer 05 Apr 13 - 02:20 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 05 Apr 13 - 06:14 AM
Ed T 05 Apr 13 - 07:41 AM
Ed T 05 Apr 13 - 08:13 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 05 Apr 13 - 08:38 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Apr 13 - 08:41 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Apr 13 - 08:52 AM
Stringsinger 05 Apr 13 - 10:04 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Apr 13 - 10:27 AM
GUEST,Stim 05 Apr 13 - 10:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 13 - 10:41 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Apr 13 - 10:58 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 05 Apr 13 - 11:45 AM
Stu 05 Apr 13 - 12:07 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 05 Apr 13 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,Stim 05 Apr 13 - 02:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 13 - 02:16 PM
Jack the Sailor 05 Apr 13 - 03:13 PM
Jack the Sailor 05 Apr 13 - 03:39 PM
Joe Offer 05 Apr 13 - 04:15 PM
Jack the Sailor 05 Apr 13 - 04:33 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 06 Apr 13 - 02:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Apr 13 - 04:28 AM
Joe Offer 06 Apr 13 - 04:47 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 06 Apr 13 - 04:57 AM
Joe Offer 06 Apr 13 - 05:10 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 06 Apr 13 - 06:29 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Apr 13 - 06:39 AM
GUEST,keith A 06 Apr 13 - 06:52 AM
Jack the Sailor 06 Apr 13 - 07:23 AM
Musket 06 Apr 13 - 07:44 AM
Jack the Sailor 06 Apr 13 - 07:54 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 06 Apr 13 - 08:27 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 06 Apr 13 - 08:36 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Apr 13 - 09:46 AM
Jack the Sailor 06 Apr 13 - 09:49 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Apr 13 - 09:51 AM
Jack the Sailor 06 Apr 13 - 09:52 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Apr 13 - 10:26 AM
Jack the Sailor 06 Apr 13 - 10:37 AM
mayomick 06 Apr 13 - 10:47 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 06 Apr 13 - 11:12 AM
Jack the Sailor 06 Apr 13 - 11:15 AM
Jack the Sailor 06 Apr 13 - 11:27 AM
BrendanB 06 Apr 13 - 11:39 AM
Stringsinger 06 Apr 13 - 11:51 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 06 Apr 13 - 12:11 PM
mayomick 06 Apr 13 - 12:33 PM
Jack the Sailor 06 Apr 13 - 12:37 PM
Jack the Sailor 06 Apr 13 - 12:47 PM
Jack the Sailor 06 Apr 13 - 12:51 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 06 Apr 13 - 01:06 PM
Jack the Sailor 06 Apr 13 - 01:14 PM
mayomick 06 Apr 13 - 02:31 PM
Jack the Sailor 06 Apr 13 - 03:19 PM
Ed T 06 Apr 13 - 03:25 PM
Jack the Sailor 06 Apr 13 - 03:27 PM
mayomick 06 Apr 13 - 03:48 PM
Jack the Sailor 06 Apr 13 - 04:06 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Apr 13 - 04:35 PM
Jack the Sailor 06 Apr 13 - 05:03 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Apr 13 - 10:07 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 07 Apr 13 - 03:31 AM
Jack the Sailor 07 Apr 13 - 06:39 PM
Stringsinger 07 Apr 13 - 09:00 PM
Jack the Sailor 08 Apr 13 - 04:09 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Apr 13 - 04:38 AM
Jack the Sailor 08 Apr 13 - 05:13 AM
Ron Davies 10 Apr 13 - 06:53 AM
Stringsinger 10 Apr 13 - 10:48 AM
Mrrzy 10 Apr 13 - 01:14 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 13 - 02:48 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Apr 13 - 03:10 PM
Ed T 10 Apr 13 - 03:10 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 10 Apr 13 - 03:30 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 10 Apr 13 - 03:51 PM
GUEST 10 Apr 13 - 04:21 PM
Jack the Sailor 10 Apr 13 - 05:14 PM
Jack the Sailor 10 Apr 13 - 05:22 PM
Jack the Sailor 10 Apr 13 - 06:39 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 11 Apr 13 - 04:43 AM
Jack the Sailor 11 Apr 13 - 07:36 AM
Musket 11 Apr 13 - 09:31 AM
Ron Davies 12 Apr 13 - 07:49 AM
Ron Davies 12 Apr 13 - 08:34 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Apr 13 - 08:43 AM
Ed T 12 Apr 13 - 09:26 AM
Jack the Sailor 12 Apr 13 - 10:17 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Apr 13 - 11:43 AM
Jack the Sailor 12 Apr 13 - 12:38 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 12 Apr 13 - 01:00 PM
Jack the Sailor 12 Apr 13 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 12 Apr 13 - 01:37 PM
Jack the Sailor 12 Apr 13 - 02:32 PM
Jack the Sailor 12 Apr 13 - 02:46 PM
Stringsinger 12 Apr 13 - 04:38 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Apr 13 - 08:40 PM
Jack the Sailor 12 Apr 13 - 09:11 PM
olddude 12 Apr 13 - 09:17 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 13 Apr 13 - 02:38 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Apr 13 - 09:11 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Apr 13 - 09:20 AM
Ed T 13 Apr 13 - 10:48 AM
Stringsinger 13 Apr 13 - 02:47 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Apr 13 - 07:34 PM
Stringsinger 14 Apr 13 - 11:42 AM
Stringsinger 14 Apr 13 - 05:36 PM
Jack the Sailor 14 Apr 13 - 06:21 PM
Jack the Sailor 14 Apr 13 - 06:49 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Apr 13 - 09:18 PM
Jack the Sailor 14 Apr 13 - 10:20 PM
Ron Davies 15 Apr 13 - 12:49 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Apr 13 - 04:33 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 15 Apr 13 - 05:31 AM
mayomick 15 Apr 13 - 05:46 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Apr 13 - 05:58 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Apr 13 - 06:21 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Apr 13 - 06:26 AM
Jack the Sailor 15 Apr 13 - 08:21 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Apr 13 - 09:05 AM
Jack the Sailor 15 Apr 13 - 09:41 AM
Jack the Sailor 15 Apr 13 - 09:49 AM
Stringsinger 15 Apr 13 - 09:57 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Apr 13 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 15 Apr 13 - 10:43 AM
GUEST,Stim 15 Apr 13 - 12:55 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Apr 13 - 07:30 PM
GUEST,Stim 15 Apr 13 - 08:35 PM
GUEST,Sammy the Skeptic 15 Apr 13 - 09:37 PM
Jack the Sailor 16 Apr 13 - 12:48 AM
GUEST,Stim 16 Apr 13 - 02:53 AM
Jack the Sailor 16 Apr 13 - 09:00 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 16 Apr 13 - 09:40 AM
GUEST,Sstim 16 Apr 13 - 10:33 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Apr 13 - 04:19 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Apr 13 - 04:21 PM
Stringsinger 16 Apr 13 - 04:42 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Apr 13 - 05:04 PM
GUEST 16 Apr 13 - 05:45 PM
GUEST,Sammy the Skeptic 16 Apr 13 - 06:37 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Apr 13 - 07:45 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Apr 13 - 08:23 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Apr 13 - 08:40 PM
GUEST,Sammy the Skeptic 16 Apr 13 - 11:49 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Apr 13 - 10:15 AM
Ron Davies 17 Apr 13 - 08:38 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Apr 13 - 09:53 PM
Ron Davies 18 Apr 13 - 02:36 PM
Stringsinger 18 Apr 13 - 03:11 PM
GUEST,BrendanB 18 Apr 13 - 03:44 PM
bobad 18 Apr 13 - 06:43 PM
Jack the Sailor 18 Apr 13 - 08:40 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Apr 13 - 08:59 PM
Jack the Sailor 18 Apr 13 - 09:08 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Apr 13 - 09:13 PM
Jack the Sailor 18 Apr 13 - 09:42 PM
MGM·Lion 19 Apr 13 - 05:13 AM
GUEST,BrendanB 19 Apr 13 - 06:05 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Apr 13 - 07:31 AM
GUEST,BrendanB 19 Apr 13 - 08:37 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Apr 13 - 08:56 AM
Jack the Sailor 19 Apr 13 - 09:08 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Apr 13 - 09:16 AM
Jack the Sailor 19 Apr 13 - 09:49 AM
Jack the Sailor 19 Apr 13 - 09:52 AM
BrendanB 19 Apr 13 - 10:11 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Apr 13 - 10:42 AM
Jack the Sailor 19 Apr 13 - 10:48 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Apr 13 - 11:26 AM
GUEST,BrendanB 19 Apr 13 - 12:08 PM
Jack the Sailor 19 Apr 13 - 12:25 PM
GUEST,Stim 19 Apr 13 - 06:27 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Apr 13 - 08:07 PM
MGM·Lion 20 Apr 13 - 02:14 AM
Jack the Sailor 20 Apr 13 - 02:18 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 20 Apr 13 - 03:47 AM
BrendanB 20 Apr 13 - 05:26 AM
Jack the Sailor 20 Apr 13 - 05:38 AM
GUEST,Stim 20 Apr 13 - 11:18 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Apr 13 - 04:33 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Apr 13 - 04:41 PM
GUEST,Stim 20 Apr 13 - 06:05 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Apr 13 - 08:48 PM
GUEST,Stim 20 Apr 13 - 09:46 PM
Jack the Sailor 21 Apr 13 - 06:52 PM
GUEST,Stim 21 Apr 13 - 07:41 PM
Jack the Sailor 21 Apr 13 - 07:57 PM
Ron Davies 21 Apr 13 - 11:56 PM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 22 Apr 13 - 02:43 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Apr 13 - 05:31 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Apr 13 - 05:40 AM
Jack the Sailor 22 Apr 13 - 08:33 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Apr 13 - 08:53 AM
Jack the Sailor 22 Apr 13 - 09:20 AM
Jack the Sailor 22 Apr 13 - 09:22 AM
Ron Davies 22 Apr 13 - 10:42 AM
Jack the Sailor 22 Apr 13 - 10:50 AM
Steve Gardham 22 Apr 13 - 03:39 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Apr 13 - 07:57 PM
Jack the Sailor 22 Apr 13 - 10:32 PM
GUEST,Musket sans reality check 23 Apr 13 - 02:22 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Apr 13 - 03:30 AM
Jack the Sailor 23 Apr 13 - 04:19 AM
Musket 23 Apr 13 - 04:45 AM
Jack the Sailor 23 Apr 13 - 04:51 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Apr 13 - 05:22 AM
Musket 23 Apr 13 - 05:31 AM
Jack the Sailor 23 Apr 13 - 05:49 AM
Musket 23 Apr 13 - 06:57 AM
Jack the Sailor 23 Apr 13 - 07:02 AM
Musket 23 Apr 13 - 07:17 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Apr 13 - 07:31 AM
Musket 23 Apr 13 - 07:47 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Apr 13 - 09:19 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Apr 13 - 09:22 AM
Jack the Sailor 23 Apr 13 - 09:37 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Apr 13 - 09:51 AM
Jack the Sailor 23 Apr 13 - 09:54 AM
Musket 23 Apr 13 - 10:19 AM
Jack the Sailor 23 Apr 13 - 10:23 AM
Jack the Sailor 23 Apr 13 - 10:31 AM
GUEST,Sammy 23 Apr 13 - 11:18 AM
Musket 23 Apr 13 - 11:46 AM
Jack the Sailor 23 Apr 13 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman 23 Apr 13 - 02:39 PM
Jack the Sailor 23 Apr 13 - 03:15 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Apr 13 - 04:51 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Apr 13 - 05:08 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Apr 13 - 05:09 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Apr 13 - 07:55 PM
GUEST,concerened 24 Apr 13 - 08:13 AM
Jack the Sailor 24 Apr 13 - 09:06 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 13 - 10:26 AM
Jack the Sailor 24 Apr 13 - 10:30 AM
Musket 24 Apr 13 - 02:12 PM
Jack the Sailor 24 Apr 13 - 02:47 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 13 - 07:16 PM
GUEST,Musket sans Ian 25 Apr 13 - 03:15 AM
Jack the Sailor 25 Apr 13 - 05:52 AM
GUEST,concerened 25 Apr 13 - 10:39 AM
GUEST,Musket sans truth 25 Apr 13 - 12:29 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Apr 13 - 12:43 PM
GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman 25 Apr 13 - 02:27 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Apr 13 - 02:35 PM
GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman 25 Apr 13 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,concerend 25 Apr 13 - 05:19 PM
Ron Davies 26 Apr 13 - 10:57 AM
Ron Davies 26 Apr 13 - 11:21 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Apr 13 - 02:03 PM
GUEST,Ron Davies 26 Apr 13 - 10:25 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Apr 13 - 05:24 AM
Jack the Sailor 27 Apr 13 - 07:17 AM
GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman 27 Apr 13 - 08:03 AM
GUEST,JtS 27 Apr 13 - 09:26 AM
GUEST,concerendi 27 Apr 13 - 10:35 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 27 Apr 13 - 10:48 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Apr 13 - 10:53 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Apr 13 - 05:09 PM
Jack the Sailor 27 Apr 13 - 05:41 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Apr 13 - 06:38 PM
Jack the Sailor 27 Apr 13 - 06:54 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Apr 13 - 12:37 AM
GUEST,Musket sans body 28 Apr 13 - 02:45 AM
Ron Davies 28 Apr 13 - 10:06 PM
Ron Davies 29 Apr 13 - 07:32 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Apr 13 - 05:38 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Apr 13 - 05:47 AM
GUEST,Stim 30 Apr 13 - 01:30 PM
GUEST,Musket sans sin 30 Apr 13 - 01:31 PM
GUEST,The Other Mr. Abernathy 30 Apr 13 - 02:54 PM
GUEST,Musket sans sin 30 Apr 13 - 05:52 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 May 13 - 09:45 AM
GUEST,Stim 01 May 13 - 03:51 PM
GUEST,Musket sans reality check 02 May 13 - 01:18 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 May 13 - 08:35 AM
GUEST,concerened 02 May 13 - 04:31 PM
GUEST,Stim 03 May 13 - 11:24 AM
Ron Davies 04 May 13 - 10:02 AM
Ron Davies 04 May 13 - 10:05 AM
GUEST,Musket sans reality check 04 May 13 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,concerened 05 May 13 - 03:26 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 May 13 - 04:07 AM
GUEST,Musket sans Ian 05 May 13 - 04:24 AM
Ron Davies 06 May 13 - 07:06 PM
Steve Shaw 06 May 13 - 07:49 PM
Ron Davies 07 May 13 - 11:27 AM
GUEST,Musket sans Ian 07 May 13 - 12:38 PM
BrendanB 07 May 13 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,Musket sans reality check 07 May 13 - 03:34 PM
John P 07 May 13 - 04:32 PM
Steve Shaw 07 May 13 - 06:34 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 May 13 - 06:15 AM
John P 08 May 13 - 09:57 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 08 May 13 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,Musket sans sin 08 May 13 - 02:15 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 May 13 - 02:21 PM
Steve Shaw 08 May 13 - 03:04 PM
GUEST,concerened 08 May 13 - 03:54 PM
GUEST,concerened 08 May 13 - 04:13 PM
GUEST,concerened 08 May 13 - 04:21 PM
GUEST,corcerened 08 May 13 - 04:31 PM
GUEST,concerened 08 May 13 - 05:12 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 May 13 - 05:49 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 May 13 - 05:51 AM
John P 09 May 13 - 10:18 AM
GUEST,concerened 09 May 13 - 12:22 PM
TheSnail 09 May 13 - 12:42 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 May 13 - 01:15 PM
BrendanB 09 May 13 - 02:31 PM
Steve Shaw 09 May 13 - 04:01 PM
TheSnail 09 May 13 - 05:35 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 09 May 13 - 06:18 PM
Steve Shaw 09 May 13 - 08:28 PM
TheSnail 09 May 13 - 09:27 PM
GUEST,concerened 10 May 13 - 01:14 AM
GUEST,Musket sans reality check 10 May 13 - 04:52 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 10 May 13 - 05:24 AM
Steve Shaw 10 May 13 - 06:23 AM
Steve Shaw 10 May 13 - 06:41 AM
John P 11 May 13 - 12:52 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 11 May 13 - 04:29 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 11 May 13 - 05:57 AM
GUEST,concerend 11 May 13 - 07:46 AM
Steve Shaw 11 May 13 - 09:51 AM
Steve Shaw 11 May 13 - 10:10 AM
Ebbie 11 May 13 - 11:25 AM
Joe Offer 11 May 13 - 07:19 PM
Steve Shaw 11 May 13 - 07:28 PM
Ebbie 11 May 13 - 09:21 PM
Joe Offer 11 May 13 - 09:25 PM
Joe Offer 11 May 13 - 09:36 PM
GUEST,Stim 11 May 13 - 10:26 PM
Joe Offer 12 May 13 - 12:05 AM
Ebbie 12 May 13 - 12:41 AM
GUEST,Stim 12 May 13 - 01:37 AM
GUEST,Stim 12 May 13 - 01:39 AM
Joe Offer 12 May 13 - 01:47 AM
Steve Shaw 12 May 13 - 06:36 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 12 May 13 - 06:40 AM
Steve Shaw 12 May 13 - 07:28 AM
Steve Shaw 12 May 13 - 09:35 AM
GUEST,Musket sans sin 12 May 13 - 10:12 AM
GUEST,Stim 12 May 13 - 03:53 PM
Ebbie 12 May 13 - 04:35 PM
GUEST,Stim 12 May 13 - 04:51 PM
Steve Shaw 12 May 13 - 09:04 PM
GUEST,Stim 12 May 13 - 11:38 PM
Joe Offer 13 May 13 - 12:51 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 May 13 - 03:49 AM
TheSnail 13 May 13 - 08:18 AM
Steve Shaw 13 May 13 - 09:04 AM
Steve Shaw 13 May 13 - 09:20 AM
Joe Offer 13 May 13 - 11:27 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 13 May 13 - 12:21 PM
Steve Shaw 13 May 13 - 01:08 PM
RichM 13 May 13 - 01:12 PM
Steve Shaw 13 May 13 - 01:16 PM
GUEST,Stim 13 May 13 - 08:23 PM
Steve Shaw 13 May 13 - 09:09 PM
Steve Shaw 13 May 13 - 09:40 PM
Joe Offer 14 May 13 - 12:02 AM
GUEST,Musket on a PC that loses posts!!! 14 May 13 - 04:11 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 14 May 13 - 08:02 AM
TheSnail 14 May 13 - 08:21 AM
Steve Shaw 14 May 13 - 09:22 AM
Steve Shaw 14 May 13 - 09:33 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 14 May 13 - 12:18 PM
Steve Shaw 14 May 13 - 01:08 PM
TheSnail 14 May 13 - 07:27 PM
Steve Shaw 14 May 13 - 07:30 PM
GUEST,Stim 14 May 13 - 10:24 PM
Joe Offer 15 May 13 - 02:09 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 May 13 - 04:27 AM
Steve Shaw 15 May 13 - 05:57 AM
Steve Shaw 15 May 13 - 05:59 AM
TheSnail 15 May 13 - 07:52 AM
Steve Shaw 15 May 13 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 15 May 13 - 12:51 PM
Steve Shaw 15 May 13 - 07:32 PM
GUEST,Stim 15 May 13 - 10:53 PM
Joe Offer 16 May 13 - 12:19 AM
John P 16 May 13 - 12:26 AM
Joe Offer 16 May 13 - 01:10 AM
John P 16 May 13 - 01:35 AM
John P 16 May 13 - 01:41 AM
Joe Offer 16 May 13 - 02:21 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 13 - 06:40 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 16 May 13 - 07:36 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 13 - 08:51 AM
Q 16 May 13 - 01:19 PM
Q 16 May 13 - 01:25 PM
GUEST,Musket sans respectability 16 May 13 - 03:40 PM
Q 16 May 13 - 07:42 PM
Joe Offer 17 May 13 - 01:09 AM
GUEST,Musket sans body 17 May 13 - 03:31 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 17 May 13 - 02:36 PM
Q 17 May 13 - 03:11 PM
Joe Offer 17 May 13 - 03:53 PM
Steve Shaw 17 May 13 - 06:12 PM
Joe Offer 17 May 13 - 06:38 PM
Steve Shaw 17 May 13 - 07:24 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 18 May 13 - 05:57 AM
Steve Shaw 18 May 13 - 08:42 AM
GUEST,Musket with smelly wee 18 May 13 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,Musket sans truth 18 May 13 - 02:15 PM
Jack the Sailor 19 May 13 - 01:40 AM
Joe Offer 19 May 13 - 03:41 AM
GUEST,Musket sans Heisenberg 19 May 13 - 03:54 AM
Steve Shaw 19 May 13 - 08:41 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 19 May 13 - 05:14 PM
Steve Shaw 19 May 13 - 08:15 PM
Joe Offer 19 May 13 - 09:27 PM
GUEST,Stim 19 May 13 - 11:18 PM
GUEST,Blandiver 20 May 13 - 06:16 AM
Steve Shaw 20 May 13 - 06:59 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 20 May 13 - 08:19 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 20 May 13 - 11:57 AM
Steve Shaw 20 May 13 - 06:10 PM
Joe Offer 21 May 13 - 03:47 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 May 13 - 04:06 AM
Joe Offer 21 May 13 - 04:21 AM
GUEST,achmelvich 21 May 13 - 04:27 AM
Joe Offer 21 May 13 - 04:53 AM
GUEST,Musket sans reality check 21 May 13 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,achmelvich 21 May 13 - 05:56 AM
Steve Shaw 21 May 13 - 09:29 AM
Steve Shaw 21 May 13 - 09:37 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 21 May 13 - 11:19 AM
Steve Shaw 21 May 13 - 11:33 AM
TheSnail 21 May 13 - 01:05 PM
GUEST,BrendanB 21 May 13 - 02:33 PM
GUEST,Blandiver 21 May 13 - 03:00 PM
Joe Offer 21 May 13 - 03:56 PM
Steve Shaw 21 May 13 - 04:45 PM
Steve Shaw 21 May 13 - 04:54 PM
Steve Shaw 21 May 13 - 04:59 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 May 13 - 06:13 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 May 13 - 06:20 PM
Joe Offer 21 May 13 - 07:04 PM
GUEST,Blandiver 22 May 13 - 06:24 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 22 May 13 - 05:00 PM
Steve Shaw 22 May 13 - 06:08 PM
Jack the Sailor 23 May 13 - 12:00 AM
Joe Offer 23 May 13 - 12:25 AM
GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman 23 May 13 - 08:29 AM
TheSnail 23 May 13 - 10:03 AM
Musket 23 May 13 - 01:39 PM
TheSnail 23 May 13 - 03:20 PM
Steve Shaw 23 May 13 - 03:46 PM
Steve Shaw 23 May 13 - 03:49 PM
Steve Shaw 23 May 13 - 03:55 PM
Joe Offer 23 May 13 - 04:23 PM
TheSnail 23 May 13 - 05:45 PM
Steve Shaw 23 May 13 - 07:43 PM
Steve Shaw 23 May 13 - 08:01 PM
Steve Shaw 23 May 13 - 08:13 PM
Ron Davies 24 May 13 - 12:21 PM
Steve Shaw 24 May 13 - 01:37 PM
GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River 24 May 13 - 02:19 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 24 May 13 - 05:56 PM
GUEST,Pastor Bob McBride 24 May 13 - 07:50 PM
Steve Shaw 24 May 13 - 08:03 PM
Joe Offer 24 May 13 - 08:46 PM
GUEST,Pastor Bob McBride 24 May 13 - 09:34 PM
Jeri 24 May 13 - 09:40 PM
Joe Offer 24 May 13 - 09:48 PM
GUEST,Musket sans Ian 25 May 13 - 04:14 AM
GUEST,concerened 25 May 13 - 06:23 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 25 May 13 - 06:38 AM
GUEST,concerened 25 May 13 - 07:20 AM
GUEST,Musket sans body 25 May 13 - 08:58 AM
GUEST,concerened 25 May 13 - 10:19 AM
GUEST,Musket sans body 25 May 13 - 03:41 PM
Steve Shaw 25 May 13 - 08:31 PM
GUEST,concerend 25 May 13 - 09:50 PM
GUEST,Stim 25 May 13 - 10:37 PM
Joe Offer 26 May 13 - 03:09 AM
Steve Shaw 26 May 13 - 05:59 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 26 May 13 - 08:57 AM
Steve Shaw 26 May 13 - 12:37 PM
GUEST 26 May 13 - 04:53 PM
Steve Shaw 26 May 13 - 05:54 PM
GUEST,Stim 26 May 13 - 07:52 PM
Steve Shaw 26 May 13 - 08:15 PM
Steve Shaw 26 May 13 - 08:46 PM
GUEST,Stim 27 May 13 - 12:25 PM
GUEST,Stim 27 May 13 - 12:36 PM
Steve Shaw 27 May 13 - 12:37 PM
Steve Shaw 27 May 13 - 12:38 PM
Steve Shaw 27 May 13 - 12:57 PM
GUEST,Stim 27 May 13 - 02:25 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 27 May 13 - 05:38 PM
Steve Shaw 27 May 13 - 06:30 PM
Steve Shaw 27 May 13 - 06:36 PM
GUEST,Stim 27 May 13 - 09:21 PM
GUEST,Musket sans body 28 May 13 - 01:28 AM
Steve Shaw 28 May 13 - 05:37 AM
MGM·Lion 28 May 13 - 06:15 AM
Steve Shaw 28 May 13 - 07:14 AM
GUEST,Stim 28 May 13 - 07:17 AM
MGM·Lion 28 May 13 - 07:29 AM
MGM·Lion 28 May 13 - 07:31 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 28 May 13 - 03:57 PM
MGM·Lion 28 May 13 - 05:20 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 28 May 13 - 06:58 PM
Steve Shaw 28 May 13 - 07:18 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 29 May 13 - 04:55 AM
Steve Shaw 29 May 13 - 07:52 AM
Ron Davies 30 May 13 - 12:15 AM
GUEST,Musket sans body 30 May 13 - 03:32 AM
TheSnail 30 May 13 - 09:13 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 May 13 - 11:51 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 May 13 - 11:53 AM
Jack the Sailor 30 May 13 - 11:56 PM
Joe Offer 31 May 13 - 12:09 AM
Steve Shaw 31 May 13 - 05:38 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 31 May 13 - 06:02 AM
Steve Shaw 31 May 13 - 07:04 AM
TheSnail 31 May 13 - 07:16 AM
Steve Shaw 31 May 13 - 07:35 AM
TheSnail 31 May 13 - 08:54 AM
Steve Shaw 31 May 13 - 08:58 AM
TheSnail 31 May 13 - 10:49 AM
MGM·Lion 31 May 13 - 11:24 AM
Steve Shaw 31 May 13 - 11:24 AM
Steve Shaw 31 May 13 - 06:19 PM
GUEST,concerend 01 Jun 13 - 06:56 AM
TheSnail 01 Jun 13 - 07:06 AM
GUEST,concerened 01 Jun 13 - 07:11 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Jun 13 - 07:39 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Jun 13 - 08:40 AM
TheSnail 01 Jun 13 - 09:42 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Jun 13 - 11:20 AM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jun 13 - 05:32 PM
GUEST,concerened 01 Jun 13 - 08:09 PM
MGM·Lion 02 Jun 13 - 12:15 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Jun 13 - 12:18 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Jun 13 - 12:20 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Jun 13 - 06:37 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Jun 13 - 08:05 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Jun 13 - 03:14 PM
MGM·Lion 02 Jun 13 - 05:39 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Jun 13 - 05:55 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Jun 13 - 01:53 AM
Joe Offer 03 Jun 13 - 02:19 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Jun 13 - 06:20 AM
TheSnail 03 Jun 13 - 02:19 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Jun 13 - 04:47 PM
TheSnail 04 Jun 13 - 05:57 AM
Jack the Sailor 04 Jun 13 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 04 Jun 13 - 01:28 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Jun 13 - 05:08 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Jun 13 - 05:09 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Jun 13 - 07:47 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Jun 13 - 10:29 PM
Joe Offer 05 Jun 13 - 01:31 AM
GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman 05 Jun 13 - 01:36 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Jun 13 - 05:55 AM
GUEST,concerened 05 Jun 13 - 07:06 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 05 Jun 13 - 07:46 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Jun 13 - 08:28 AM
Jack the Sailor 05 Jun 13 - 10:04 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Jun 13 - 11:51 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 05 Jun 13 - 01:05 PM
MGM·Lion 05 Jun 13 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,Musket sans body 05 Jun 13 - 02:14 PM
Donuel 05 Jun 13 - 05:34 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Jun 13 - 06:52 PM
Jack the Sailor 05 Jun 13 - 08:51 PM
Jack the Sailor 05 Jun 13 - 09:11 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Jun 13 - 09:40 PM
Jack the Sailor 05 Jun 13 - 11:06 PM
GUEST,Musket sans respectability 06 Jun 13 - 03:13 AM
TheSnail 06 Jun 13 - 06:30 AM
Jack the Sailor 06 Jun 13 - 11:49 AM
GUEST,concerened 06 Jun 13 - 12:26 PM
Jack the Sailor 06 Jun 13 - 12:48 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Jun 13 - 08:45 PM
Jack the Sailor 06 Jun 13 - 10:27 PM
GUEST,musket sans Ian 07 Jun 13 - 03:45 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 07 Jun 13 - 07:25 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 07 Jun 13 - 12:40 PM
Jack the Sailor 07 Jun 13 - 12:45 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 07 Jun 13 - 12:52 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 07 Jun 13 - 01:01 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 07 Jun 13 - 01:33 PM
Jack the Sailor 07 Jun 13 - 02:02 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 07 Jun 13 - 02:21 PM
Jack the Sailor 07 Jun 13 - 02:22 PM
Jack the Sailor 07 Jun 13 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 09 Jun 13 - 04:48 PM
Jack the Sailor 09 Jun 13 - 05:42 PM
Musket 10 Jun 13 - 05:30 AM
Jack the Sailor 10 Jun 13 - 03:07 PM
GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman 10 Jun 13 - 03:28 PM
Jack the Sailor 10 Jun 13 - 04:04 PM
GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman 10 Jun 13 - 04:18 PM
GUEST 10 Jun 13 - 04:41 PM
Jack the Sailor 10 Jun 13 - 04:57 PM
Jack the Sailor 10 Jun 13 - 05:10 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jun 13 - 07:37 PM
Jack the Sailor 10 Jun 13 - 08:03 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jun 13 - 08:29 PM
Joe Offer 10 Jun 13 - 10:29 PM
Jack the Sailor 10 Jun 13 - 10:51 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Jun 13 - 06:30 AM
GUEST,Musket sans body 11 Jun 13 - 07:42 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 11 Jun 13 - 07:45 AM
GUEST,Musket sans Ian 11 Jun 13 - 09:49 AM
GUEST 11 Jun 13 - 11:13 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 11 Jun 13 - 03:41 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Jun 13 - 07:26 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 12 Jun 13 - 12:56 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Jun 13 - 01:30 PM
GUEST,Musket sans respectability 12 Jun 13 - 04:07 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 12 Jun 13 - 04:58 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Jun 13 - 07:20 PM
Joe Offer 12 Jun 13 - 09:24 PM
GUEST,musket without sans 13 Jun 13 - 01:13 PM
GUEST 13 Jun 13 - 01:23 PM
GUEST,Musket sans sin 13 Jun 13 - 03:34 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jun 13 - 08:29 PM
Joe Offer 14 Jun 13 - 05:30 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 14 Jun 13 - 11:43 AM
Joe Offer 14 Jun 13 - 07:44 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Jun 13 - 01:19 AM
Joe Offer 15 Jun 13 - 01:44 AM
GUEST,Musket sans without 15 Jun 13 - 01:53 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Jun 13 - 02:58 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 15 Jun 13 - 04:55 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 15 Jun 13 - 04:55 AM
GUEST,Musket sans body 15 Jun 13 - 05:52 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Jun 13 - 07:29 PM
Ron Davies 16 Jun 13 - 12:13 PM
MGM·Lion 16 Jun 13 - 12:22 PM
GUEST,Musket sans piss taking 16 Jun 13 - 01:26 PM
MGM·Lion 16 Jun 13 - 01:38 PM
GUEST,musket without sans 17 Jun 13 - 11:09 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 17 Jun 13 - 11:21 AM
GUEST,Musket sans the Big Bang 17 Jun 13 - 01:02 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Jun 13 - 01:13 PM
MGM·Lion 17 Jun 13 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 17 Jun 13 - 04:22 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Jun 13 - 07:34 PM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 18 Jun 13 - 07:21 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 18 Jun 13 - 11:26 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Jun 13 - 11:37 AM
Bill D 18 Jun 13 - 01:27 PM
GUEST,Musket sans Fred Hoyle 18 Jun 13 - 01:27 PM
MGM·Lion 18 Jun 13 - 05:46 PM
Jack the Sailor 19 Jun 13 - 12:26 AM
GUEST,Musket sans reality check 19 Jun 13 - 02:52 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 19 Jun 13 - 12:32 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Jun 13 - 12:52 PM
Musket 19 Jun 13 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 19 Jun 13 - 04:58 PM
GUEST 19 Jun 13 - 05:32 PM
Bill D 19 Jun 13 - 08:33 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Jun 13 - 08:33 PM
Ron Davies 20 Jun 13 - 04:44 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jun 13 - 08:34 PM
GUEST,Musket sans Bach 21 Jun 13 - 01:22 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Jun 13 - 03:19 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Jun 13 - 05:54 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Jun 13 - 06:36 AM
GUEST,Musket sans art 21 Jun 13 - 06:49 AM
Ed Brown 21 Jun 13 - 06:57 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Jun 13 - 08:26 AM
Ron Davies 22 Jun 13 - 12:54 AM
MGM·Lion 22 Jun 13 - 01:53 AM
GUEST,Musket sans scepticism 22 Jun 13 - 03:45 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jun 13 - 09:42 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jun 13 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,Musket sans atheism 22 Jun 13 - 10:14 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jun 13 - 10:19 AM
GUEST,Musket sans sloppy seconds 22 Jun 13 - 12:12 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 22 Jun 13 - 04:26 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Jun 13 - 05:23 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Jun 13 - 05:35 PM
Don Firth 22 Jun 13 - 07:02 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Jun 13 - 07:17 PM
Ebbie 22 Jun 13 - 07:59 PM
Don Firth 22 Jun 13 - 10:22 PM
GUEST,Musket sans revelations 23 Jun 13 - 03:00 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Jun 13 - 08:29 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Jun 13 - 08:35 AM
Musket 23 Jun 13 - 09:19 AM
Jack the Sailor 23 Jun 13 - 01:18 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Jun 13 - 01:22 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 23 Jun 13 - 03:18 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Jun 13 - 05:03 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Jun 13 - 05:05 PM
GUEST,Musket sans grammar 23 Jun 13 - 05:19 PM
GUEST,musket sans millenium 23 Jun 13 - 05:29 PM
GUEST,Musket sans Ian 23 Jun 13 - 05:51 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Jun 13 - 07:06 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Jun 13 - 07:11 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Jun 13 - 07:27 PM
Ron Davies 24 Jun 13 - 12:46 AM
GUEST,Musket sans gatekeeper 24 Jun 13 - 02:52 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Jun 13 - 07:01 AM
GUEST,Musket sans martyrdom 24 Jun 13 - 12:15 PM
GUEST,gillymor 24 Jun 13 - 01:01 PM
GUEST,Musket sans infection control 24 Jun 13 - 02:11 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jun 13 - 07:28 PM
Bill D 24 Jun 13 - 07:57 PM
Jack the Sailor 24 Jun 13 - 11:43 PM
MGM·Lion 25 Jun 13 - 12:05 AM
GUEST,Musket sans body 25 Jun 13 - 02:12 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Jun 13 - 03:03 AM
GUEST,Musket sans the finished article 25 Jun 13 - 07:40 AM
Jack the Sailor 25 Jun 13 - 08:34 AM
Jack the Sailor 25 Jun 13 - 08:48 AM
GUEST,Musket sans sarcasm 25 Jun 13 - 08:51 AM
GUEST,Musket sans salon stuff 25 Jun 13 - 11:09 AM
GUEST 25 Jun 13 - 04:51 PM
GUEST,Musket sans martyrdom 25 Jun 13 - 05:05 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jun 13 - 06:38 PM
Bill D 25 Jun 13 - 08:55 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jun 13 - 09:09 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jun 13 - 09:09 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jun 13 - 09:10 PM
Bill D 25 Jun 13 - 09:48 PM
GUEST,Musket sans martyrdom 26 Jun 13 - 03:08 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jun 13 - 06:17 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jun 13 - 06:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jun 13 - 06:42 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jun 13 - 06:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jun 13 - 06:46 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jun 13 - 07:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jun 13 - 07:28 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jun 13 - 07:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jun 13 - 08:35 AM
Jack the Sailor 26 Jun 13 - 09:21 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jun 13 - 10:14 AM
GUEST,Musket sans Jack's parrot 26 Jun 13 - 10:19 AM
GUEST,gillymor 26 Jun 13 - 10:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jun 13 - 10:48 AM
GUEST,gillymor 26 Jun 13 - 10:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jun 13 - 10:54 AM
GUEST 26 Jun 13 - 11:12 AM
GUEST,gillymor 26 Jun 13 - 11:17 AM
GUEST,Musket sans body of Clapton 26 Jun 13 - 11:34 AM
GUEST,gillymor 26 Jun 13 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,Musket sans fun 26 Jun 13 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,gillymor 26 Jun 13 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,Musket sans shame 26 Jun 13 - 12:53 PM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jun 13 - 12:59 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 26 Jun 13 - 01:39 PM
GUEST,gillymor 26 Jun 13 - 01:42 PM
dick greenhaus 26 Jun 13 - 02:11 PM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jun 13 - 02:18 PM
TheSnail 26 Jun 13 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,Musket sans gatekeeper 26 Jun 13 - 03:06 PM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jun 13 - 04:06 PM
GUEST,gillymor 26 Jun 13 - 04:38 PM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jun 13 - 04:53 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 26 Jun 13 - 05:36 PM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jun 13 - 06:42 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jun 13 - 06:52 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jun 13 - 06:58 PM
Jack the Sailor 26 Jun 13 - 09:27 PM
Dave the Gnome 27 Jun 13 - 02:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Jun 13 - 02:56 AM
GUEST,Musket sans body of Clapton 27 Jun 13 - 04:31 AM
Joe Offer 27 Jun 13 - 04:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jun 13 - 05:04 AM
TheSnail 27 Jun 13 - 05:30 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Jun 13 - 05:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Jun 13 - 05:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Jun 13 - 06:10 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Jun 13 - 06:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Jun 13 - 06:32 AM
Joe Offer 27 Jun 13 - 06:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Jun 13 - 06:45 AM
GUEST,Musket sas belief 27 Jun 13 - 07:05 AM
GUEST,gillymor 27 Jun 13 - 08:37 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Jun 13 - 08:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jun 13 - 08:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Jun 13 - 08:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jun 13 - 08:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jun 13 - 09:00 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Jun 13 - 09:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Jun 13 - 09:34 AM
Jack the Sailor 27 Jun 13 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,Musket sans sea legs 27 Jun 13 - 01:02 PM
Dave the Gnome 27 Jun 13 - 04:22 PM
GUEST,Musket sans blood of the Messiah 27 Jun 13 - 04:59 PM
GUEST,concerned 27 Jun 13 - 05:24 PM
GUEST,Musket sans salesmanship 27 Jun 13 - 05:34 PM
Dave the Gnome 27 Jun 13 - 05:48 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Jun 13 - 08:45 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Jun 13 - 08:56 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Jun 13 - 09:21 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Jun 13 - 09:39 PM
GUEST,Musket sans terroir 28 Jun 13 - 03:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Jun 13 - 03:55 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Jun 13 - 05:48 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Jun 13 - 05:53 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Jun 13 - 06:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Jun 13 - 08:59 AM
GUEST,gillymor 28 Jun 13 - 09:09 AM
GUEST,Musket sans pinotage 28 Jun 13 - 09:43 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Jun 13 - 09:57 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Jun 13 - 10:04 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Jun 13 - 10:24 AM
GUEST,Musket sans blood of the Messiah 28 Jun 13 - 11:32 AM
Ebbie 28 Jun 13 - 12:30 PM
GUEST,Musket sans Ian 28 Jun 13 - 02:02 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Jun 13 - 02:03 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 28 Jun 13 - 06:13 PM
Jack the Sailor 28 Jun 13 - 11:03 PM
Ron Davies 28 Jun 13 - 11:32 PM
GUEST,Stim 28 Jun 13 - 11:40 PM
GUEST,Musket sans jerkiness 29 Jun 13 - 02:38 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Jun 13 - 06:02 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Jun 13 - 06:06 AM
GUEST,Musket sans treble bob 29 Jun 13 - 09:36 AM
Little Hawk 29 Jun 13 - 09:39 AM
Greg F. 29 Jun 13 - 09:51 AM
Little Hawk 29 Jun 13 - 10:01 AM
GUEST,gillymor 29 Jun 13 - 10:09 AM
GUEST,Musket sans obvious post 29 Jun 13 - 10:12 AM
GUEST,gillymor 29 Jun 13 - 10:15 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Jun 13 - 01:23 PM
Little Hawk 29 Jun 13 - 01:55 PM
GUEST,Musket sans shame 29 Jun 13 - 02:07 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Jun 13 - 04:19 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cryptic references 29 Jun 13 - 06:24 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Jun 13 - 07:10 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Jun 13 - 07:19 PM
GUEST,Musket sans body of Clapton 30 Jun 13 - 04:02 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Jun 13 - 07:27 AM
GUEST,Musket sans bingo calling 30 Jun 13 - 07:56 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Jun 13 - 09:24 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Jun 13 - 09:52 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Jun 13 - 09:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Jun 13 - 01:34 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 30 Jun 13 - 01:55 PM
GUEST,Musket sans large crowds 30 Jun 13 - 02:32 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Jun 13 - 02:47 PM
Ebbie 30 Jun 13 - 03:14 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Jul 13 - 10:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Jul 13 - 01:06 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Jul 13 - 04:03 PM
GUEST,Musket sans bingo calling 01 Jul 13 - 06:28 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Jul 13 - 06:57 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Jul 13 - 08:32 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Jul 13 - 02:55 AM
GUEST,Musket sans real instruments 02 Jul 13 - 04:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Jul 13 - 06:38 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Jul 13 - 07:43 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Jul 13 - 08:22 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jul 13 - 03:06 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jul 13 - 03:56 AM
GUEST,Musket sans Clapton 03 Jul 13 - 04:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jul 13 - 05:24 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Jul 13 - 06:09 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Jul 13 - 06:10 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jul 13 - 06:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jul 13 - 07:50 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Jul 13 - 08:09 AM
GUEST,Musket sans pickled eggs 03 Jul 13 - 09:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jul 13 - 09:34 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Jul 13 - 10:40 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Jul 13 - 10:42 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jul 13 - 10:56 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Jul 13 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,Musket mellow 03 Jul 13 - 12:58 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jul 13 - 02:47 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jul 13 - 02:54 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 Jul 13 - 03:09 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Jul 13 - 03:14 PM
GUEST,Musket between courses 03 Jul 13 - 04:09 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jul 13 - 05:29 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Jul 13 - 07:38 PM
GUEST,Musket sans Clapton 04 Jul 13 - 02:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Jul 13 - 02:54 AM
GUEST,Musket being business like 04 Jul 13 - 12:09 PM
GUEST,concerened 04 Jul 13 - 03:39 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Jul 13 - 03:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Jul 13 - 03:58 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Jul 13 - 08:53 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Jul 13 - 11:56 AM
GUEST,Musket sans Clapton 05 Jul 13 - 12:39 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Jul 13 - 01:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Jul 13 - 03:40 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Jul 13 - 07:13 AM
Musket 06 Jul 13 - 08:38 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Jul 13 - 08:56 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cash 06 Jul 13 - 02:02 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Jul 13 - 07:29 PM
GUEST,concerened 07 Jul 13 - 07:14 AM
Musket 07 Jul 13 - 07:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Jul 13 - 10:31 AM
GUEST,Musket sans Clapton 07 Jul 13 - 10:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Jul 13 - 01:46 PM
GUEST,concerned. 07 Jul 13 - 05:00 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jul 13 - 07:51 PM
GUEST,Musket sans Clapton 08 Jul 13 - 06:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Jul 13 - 08:24 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 08 Jul 13 - 09:17 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Jul 13 - 11:08 AM
GUEST,Musket in 70s comic mode 08 Jul 13 - 05:14 PM
Jack the Sailor 08 Jul 13 - 06:44 PM
Jack the Sailor 08 Jul 13 - 06:46 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Jul 13 - 08:07 PM
Jack the Sailor 09 Jul 13 - 02:02 AM
GUEST,Musket sans wurlitzer 09 Jul 13 - 02:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Jul 13 - 02:51 AM
Jack the Sailor 09 Jul 13 - 03:22 AM
GUEST,Musket sans truth 09 Jul 13 - 09:34 AM
Jack the Sailor 09 Jul 13 - 01:42 PM
GUEST,Musket teaching ignorant foreigners 09 Jul 13 - 02:38 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Jul 13 - 02:56 PM
Jack the Sailor 09 Jul 13 - 03:16 PM
Dave the Gnome 09 Jul 13 - 03:31 PM
Dave the Gnome 09 Jul 13 - 03:33 PM
GUEST,Musket sans blood of the Messiah 09 Jul 13 - 04:17 PM
Jack the Sailor 09 Jul 13 - 04:28 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Jul 13 - 06:24 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Jul 13 - 06:27 PM
GUEST,Musket sans Clapton 10 Jul 13 - 01:21 AM
Ebbie 10 Jul 13 - 02:13 AM
Jack the Sailor 10 Jul 13 - 02:49 AM
Jack the Sailor 10 Jul 13 - 02:53 AM
Jack the Sailor 10 Jul 13 - 02:54 AM
Jack the Sailor 10 Jul 13 - 03:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Jul 13 - 03:53 AM
GUEST,Musket sans blood of the Messiah 10 Jul 13 - 05:09 AM
Jack the Sailor 10 Jul 13 - 01:56 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jul 13 - 02:51 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Jul 13 - 04:12 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jul 13 - 06:43 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Jul 13 - 07:34 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jul 13 - 07:58 PM
GUEST,Musket thinking it through 11 Jul 13 - 07:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jul 13 - 08:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jul 13 - 08:08 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Jul 13 - 12:05 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jul 13 - 12:15 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Jul 13 - 12:30 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jul 13 - 12:52 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jul 13 - 01:17 PM
Jack the Sailor 11 Jul 13 - 03:51 PM
Jack the Sailor 11 Jul 13 - 04:11 PM
GUEST,g angry with his phone keyboard 11 Jul 13 - 04:58 PM
Jack the Sailor 11 Jul 13 - 10:14 PM
GUEST,Musket grateful for that 12 Jul 13 - 03:51 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Jul 13 - 05:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Jul 13 - 10:13 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Jul 13 - 08:30 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Jul 13 - 09:52 PM
GUEST,Musket sans Clapton 13 Jul 13 - 03:50 AM
Joe Offer 13 Jul 13 - 04:47 AM
Jack the Sailor 13 Jul 13 - 05:18 AM
Joe Offer 13 Jul 13 - 05:20 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Jul 13 - 08:35 AM
GUEST,Musket getting his tuppence worth 13 Jul 13 - 09:14 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Jul 13 - 10:31 AM
GUEST,Musket scouring the North 13 Jul 13 - 12:50 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jul 13 - 08:35 PM
Ebbie 14 Jul 13 - 01:56 AM
GUEST,Musket sanctimonious as a sailor 14 Jul 13 - 03:22 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Jul 13 - 05:52 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 14 Jul 13 - 06:24 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Jul 13 - 07:10 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jul 13 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,Musket getting nostalgic 14 Jul 13 - 01:44 PM
Little Hawk 14 Jul 13 - 04:19 PM
Jack the Sailor 14 Jul 13 - 04:26 PM
GUEST,Blandiver 14 Jul 13 - 05:53 PM
Little Hawk 14 Jul 13 - 06:04 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Jul 13 - 07:09 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Jul 13 - 07:16 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Jul 13 - 07:26 PM
GUEST,Musket sans bingo calling 15 Jul 13 - 04:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Jul 13 - 06:02 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Jul 13 - 07:09 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Jul 13 - 07:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Jul 13 - 07:24 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Jul 13 - 11:03 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Jul 13 - 11:05 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 13 - 07:21 PM
GUEST,Musket par for the course 16 Jul 13 - 05:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Jul 13 - 12:44 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Jul 13 - 06:08 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Jul 13 - 06:17 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Jul 13 - 06:26 PM
Little Hawk 16 Jul 13 - 06:54 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Jul 13 - 08:14 PM
Musket 17 Jul 13 - 05:29 AM
GUEST,Musket sans blood of the Messiah 17 Jul 13 - 05:44 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jul 13 - 06:18 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Jul 13 - 06:43 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Jul 13 - 08:31 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Jul 13 - 08:31 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Jul 13 - 08:34 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 18 Jul 13 - 03:54 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Jul 13 - 06:43 AM
GUEST,Musket as a spiv 18 Jul 13 - 07:15 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Jul 13 - 07:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Jul 13 - 08:31 AM
GUEST,Musket looking out window 18 Jul 13 - 08:45 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Jul 13 - 08:26 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Jul 13 - 05:45 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jul 13 - 08:10 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 19 Jul 13 - 11:21 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jul 13 - 12:40 PM
GUEST,Musket sans bingo calling 20 Jul 13 - 03:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jul 13 - 03:18 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Jul 13 - 06:26 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Jul 13 - 06:31 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Jul 13 - 09:44 AM
Ron Davies 21 Jul 13 - 09:46 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Jul 13 - 09:57 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 21 Jul 13 - 03:16 PM
Dave the Gnome 21 Jul 13 - 03:20 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 22 Jul 13 - 02:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Jul 13 - 02:34 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jul 13 - 06:21 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Jul 13 - 06:29 PM
Ron Davies 24 Jul 13 - 08:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jul 13 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,Musket sans Clapton 24 Jul 13 - 01:59 PM
Jack the Sailor 24 Jul 13 - 02:23 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jul 13 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,Musket taking no shit from you pal 24 Jul 13 - 03:00 PM
Ron Davies 26 Jul 13 - 08:11 AM
Ron Davies 26 Jul 13 - 08:17 AM
Musket 26 Jul 13 - 08:28 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jul 13 - 08:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jul 13 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,Musket curious 26 Jul 13 - 03:04 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jul 13 - 09:15 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Jul 13 - 05:37 PM
GUEST,Musket sans Clapton 28 Jul 13 - 03:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Jul 13 - 09:34 AM
GUEST,concerened 28 Jul 13 - 04:03 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Jul 13 - 05:52 PM
Jack the Sailor 28 Jul 13 - 07:16 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Jul 13 - 07:34 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Jul 13 - 07:58 PM
Ron Davies 28 Jul 13 - 08:30 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 29 Jul 13 - 02:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Jul 13 - 10:15 AM
GUEST 29 Jul 13 - 10:52 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 Jul 13 - 11:16 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Jul 13 - 12:37 PM
GUEST,Musket the co Messiah 29 Jul 13 - 02:38 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Jul 13 - 03:20 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Jul 13 - 06:25 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Jul 13 - 08:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Jul 13 - 09:56 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Jul 13 - 06:19 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Jul 13 - 08:55 PM
GUEST,Musket confused 01 Aug 13 - 03:16 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Aug 13 - 06:54 PM
Musket 02 Aug 13 - 03:56 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Aug 13 - 04:41 AM
Ron Davies 02 Aug 13 - 10:19 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Aug 13 - 03:38 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Aug 13 - 07:12 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Aug 13 - 12:09 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Aug 13 - 02:21 PM
Ron Davies 03 Aug 13 - 04:01 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Aug 13 - 06:39 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Aug 13 - 09:15 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 04 Aug 13 - 03:28 AM
robomatic 04 Aug 13 - 02:19 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Aug 13 - 02:45 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Aug 13 - 07:03 PM
GUEST,Musket sans bingo calling 05 Aug 13 - 01:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Aug 13 - 03:45 AM
GUEST,Musket 05 Aug 13 - 01:05 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Aug 13 - 04:54 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Aug 13 - 08:02 PM
GUEST,Musket curious 06 Aug 13 - 04:59 AM
GUEST,Concerened 06 Aug 13 - 08:58 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Aug 13 - 10:07 AM
GUEST,Concerened 06 Aug 13 - 10:25 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Aug 13 - 10:35 AM
GUEST,Musket wondering 06 Aug 13 - 10:41 AM
GUEST,Concerened 06 Aug 13 - 11:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Aug 13 - 01:08 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Aug 13 - 01:33 PM
Ron Davies 07 Aug 13 - 08:32 AM
GUEST,Musket getting blasé 07 Aug 13 - 09:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Aug 13 - 09:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Aug 13 - 02:22 PM
Ron Davies 08 Aug 13 - 09:06 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Aug 13 - 10:32 AM
GUEST,Musket happy to oblige 08 Aug 13 - 12:40 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 Aug 13 - 01:00 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Aug 13 - 02:53 PM
Ron Davies 08 Aug 13 - 08:36 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Aug 13 - 08:48 PM
GUEST,Musket again 09 Aug 13 - 12:15 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 13 - 11:02 AM
Ron Davies 10 Aug 13 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,musket calling Ron a c 10 Aug 13 - 02:33 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Aug 13 - 04:49 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Aug 13 - 06:08 PM
GUEST,concerened 10 Aug 13 - 07:18 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Aug 13 - 07:52 PM
Stilly River Sage 11 Aug 13 - 02:00 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 11 Aug 13 - 02:55 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Aug 13 - 08:33 AM
Stilly River Sage 11 Aug 13 - 11:36 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Aug 13 - 06:43 PM
Ron Davies 12 Aug 13 - 12:22 PM
GUEST 12 Aug 13 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,Musket curious 12 Aug 13 - 01:43 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Aug 13 - 06:06 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Aug 13 - 06:06 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Aug 13 - 06:09 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Aug 13 - 06:22 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Aug 13 - 06:32 PM
GUEST,Musket between courses 12 Aug 13 - 07:38 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Aug 13 - 07:43 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Aug 13 - 05:14 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Aug 13 - 05:45 AM
bobad 13 Aug 13 - 07:06 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Aug 13 - 07:21 AM
Ron Davies 14 Aug 13 - 10:39 PM
Ron Davies 14 Aug 13 - 10:43 PM
GUEST,Musket being patriotic 15 Aug 13 - 03:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Aug 13 - 03:56 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Aug 13 - 06:34 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Aug 13 - 08:08 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Aug 13 - 08:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Aug 13 - 08:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Aug 13 - 10:25 AM
GUEST,Musket sans blood of the Messiah 15 Aug 13 - 11:07 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Aug 13 - 03:02 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Aug 13 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,Musket curious 15 Aug 13 - 05:33 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Aug 13 - 05:38 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Aug 13 - 06:49 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 16 Aug 13 - 02:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Aug 13 - 03:29 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Aug 13 - 05:42 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Aug 13 - 05:55 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Aug 13 - 06:19 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Aug 13 - 08:30 AM
GUEST,Musket getting geographical details wrong 16 Aug 13 - 09:40 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Aug 13 - 08:31 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Aug 13 - 08:41 PM
Ron Davies 17 Aug 13 - 11:44 AM
Ron Davies 18 Aug 13 - 11:40 AM
Stringsinger 18 Aug 13 - 01:24 PM
GUEST,Musket sans blood of the Messiah 19 Aug 13 - 02:32 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 19 Aug 13 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,Musket curious 19 Aug 13 - 04:48 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 Aug 13 - 03:19 AM
GUEST,Musket the Co Messiah 20 Aug 13 - 03:44 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Aug 13 - 06:04 AM
Stringsinger 20 Aug 13 - 11:41 AM
GUEST,Musket in festival mode 20 Aug 13 - 12:45 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Aug 13 - 06:55 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Aug 13 - 08:40 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Aug 13 - 09:04 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Aug 13 - 09:12 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Aug 13 - 09:12 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 21 Aug 13 - 10:02 AM
GUEST,musket there you go 21 Aug 13 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Aug 13 - 10:21 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Aug 13 - 12:29 PM
Dave the Gnome 21 Aug 13 - 01:25 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Aug 13 - 06:13 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 22 Aug 13 - 01:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Aug 13 - 06:19 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Aug 13 - 07:06 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Aug 13 - 07:31 AM
GUEST,Musket being patriotic 22 Aug 13 - 07:51 AM
Stringsinger 22 Aug 13 - 11:37 AM
GUEST,Musket again 22 Aug 13 - 04:05 PM
GUEST,concerened 22 Aug 13 - 04:14 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Aug 13 - 04:47 PM
GUEST,Musket thoughtful 22 Aug 13 - 06:40 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 22 Aug 13 - 07:48 PM
GUEST,Concerened 23 Aug 13 - 02:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Aug 13 - 02:50 AM
GUEST,Musket checking his file 23 Aug 13 - 05:20 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Aug 13 - 06:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Aug 13 - 06:10 AM
GUEST,Musket and his vanity 23 Aug 13 - 06:26 AM
Stringsinger 23 Aug 13 - 04:46 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 24 Aug 13 - 02:43 AM
GUEST,concerened 24 Aug 13 - 07:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Aug 13 - 07:09 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Aug 13 - 07:27 AM
GUEST,Concerened 24 Aug 13 - 10:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Aug 13 - 10:15 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 24 Aug 13 - 10:24 AM
GUEST,Musket pissing himself 24 Aug 13 - 03:46 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Aug 13 - 05:09 PM
GUEST,concerened 25 Aug 13 - 08:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Aug 13 - 02:41 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Aug 13 - 07:58 PM
GUEST,Musket curious 26 Aug 13 - 02:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Aug 13 - 04:06 AM
GUEST,concere 26 Aug 13 - 06:52 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Aug 13 - 07:04 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Aug 13 - 07:33 AM
GUEST,Musket struttin' 26 Aug 13 - 12:23 PM
Dave the Gnome 26 Aug 13 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,concerened 27 Aug 13 - 05:30 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Aug 13 - 07:45 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Aug 13 - 08:32 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Aug 13 - 12:52 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Aug 13 - 12:52 PM
Dave the Gnome 27 Aug 13 - 03:35 PM
GUEST,Musket sanctimonious as a sailor 28 Aug 13 - 01:01 AM
GUEST,concerened 28 Aug 13 - 06:35 AM
GUEST,concerened 28 Aug 13 - 07:15 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 28 Aug 13 - 07:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Aug 13 - 08:09 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Aug 13 - 04:45 PM
Stringsinger 28 Aug 13 - 07:28 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 29 Aug 13 - 01:13 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Aug 13 - 03:42 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Aug 13 - 07:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Aug 13 - 07:23 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 29 Aug 13 - 07:39 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 Aug 13 - 08:18 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Aug 13 - 08:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Aug 13 - 08:36 AM
Stringsinger 29 Aug 13 - 12:56 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Aug 13 - 01:28 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Aug 13 - 03:25 PM
GUEST,Musket in canine mode 29 Aug 13 - 04:07 PM
Jack the Sailor 29 Aug 13 - 04:25 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Aug 13 - 07:14 PM
GUEST,Musket sanctimonious as a sailor 30 Aug 13 - 02:29 AM
GUEST,concerened 30 Aug 13 - 07:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Aug 13 - 08:30 AM
GUEST,Musket struttin' 30 Aug 13 - 10:04 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Aug 13 - 10:47 AM
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Subject: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 10:26 PM

Very interesting article. Why are some atheists so militant.

Prominent non-believers have become as dogmatic as those they deride

"I like this analysis better than the usual approach to secularization, which just counts how many people believe and how many don't. It may one day help to test my thesis that activist atheism reflects trauma. The stricter one's religious background, the greater the need to go against it and to replace old securities with new ones."


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 10:48 PM

Yes, I've always said that everyone is really "religious" about something (It could be God, money, themselves, success, possessions, sex, fame, their body, their intellect, their profession, their country, their party, their sexual preference, their racial profile, their gender, their home team, their hobby, their drug of choice, etc.), atheists included. Everyone puts a lot of faith in a few particular favorite baskets. And if they're also dogmatic about it, and they want to attack or ridicule all religions, faiths, and obesssions which are different from their own...then they're a pain to be around.

There's a lot of good stuff in that article. This, for instance:

"Dogmatists (either religious or atheistic dogmatists) have one advantage (in a debate): they are poor listeners. This ensures sparkling conversations when different kinds of them get together the way male birds gather at "leks" to display splendid plumage for visiting females. It almost makes one believe in the "argumentative theory," according to which human reasoning didn't evolve for the sake of truth, but rather to shine in discussion."

One sees that in government all the time, specially when the cameras are running. And one sees it on discussion forums.

That's why I'm starting to prefer PMs for difficult subjects. I can talk to just one person then, and neither one of us is tempted to start grandstanding for the rest of the online audience. It makes for far better communication. Also, you don't keep getting interrupted constantly by other people who want to divert things in some other direction. Again, far better communication when it's just two people talking.

Which is why they say, "Too many cooks spoil the soup."


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 11:02 PM

It is actually of very little interest. What a bloody thing to waste time labouring through. It's the same old story. Certain persons of faith feeling so threatened by rational people disagreeing with them that they have to try to imagine that we over here have an alternative belief system, that we're angry, that we're militant, that we're equivalent, in effect, to some wacky religion or other. I have to call myself an atheist (annoying in itself) because I'm cast in that mould by believers. No invention of God, no believers, no atheists. The whole thing is your doing, not ours. We don't band together conspiratorially like Christians, Muslims and Jews do (cf. AIPAC). We don't capture people into our "cause" (by christening, for example) at least twenty years before they understand the notions that bind. We don't preach stuff because we have nothing to preach about. We are not equal and opposites to believers. That legitimises believers beyond all justification. You pontificate from the pulpit, claiming that myth is truth, via programmes on the radio and telly and by indoctrinating school kids from the age of five. We haven't got an opposing body of knowledge to you because there is not the information to possess one. That is a damn sight more honest than Christian belief, which deals in myth as truth, uncertainties as certainties and the entrapment and brainwashing of children. So don't come the old, worn-out "militant atheist" bollocks. We are pussycats without a central organisation, unlike the racist, authoritarian, misogynistic setups of the three major religions, and your false characterisation of us betrays not only crooked thinking but also an unhealthy, rampant, unjustified fear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 11:12 PM

Yes, I've always said that everyone is really "religious" about something

Ah yes, the usual bogus equivalence argument! It suits you to characterise people who have ardent disagreements with your cosy Christian line as "religious" in some alternative way. You do realise, don't you, that in so doing you are actually making "religious" into a dirty word? That is so laughable. So, in sum, no, we are not religious. Oh yes, we have certain convictions, hard-won (unlike religion, which is hard-received) that are based on the requirement for and critical assessment of evidence. I can't think of anything on earth as different from "religious" as that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 11:17 PM

Can I PM you about that? ;-)

Most of the people I've ever met worship money, not God. Just offer them a whole of it, and you'll see right away where their priorities lie. Money rules the world! (at present)   

Then there's sex...another major item of worship in our society...check out the latest issue of Cosmopolitan, and you'll see by the titles of the articles on the cover. Sex, sex, sex, and more sex. People worship it, and it's used to sell everything under the sun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 11:29 PM

You seriously need to inspect and extend your vocabulary. You worship God, you do not worship money. You may lustfully acquire it, steal it, bamboozle people out of it, hoard it, count it, fret about it. You do not do those things with your God. Choose a different word. You do not worship sex. You seek it, yearn for it if you can't get it, fail at it, dream about getting it, worry that God or your dead granny is watching what you get up to. Not worship. Wrong word. This stuff is completely symptomatic of the need of a certain type of believer to obsessively seek equivalence for other people's base, worldly desires with your assumed higher calling in order to make you look good. Live your life, stop making silly, spurious comparisons and get off your religious high horse. And we'll discuss in public if it's all right with you. I hate having to do things twice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 11:35 PM

Mr. Shaw, You said,

"It is actually of very little interest. What a bloody thing to waste time labouring through. It's the same old story. Certain persons of faith feeling so threatened by rational people disagreeing with them that they have to try to imagine that we over here have an alternative belief system, that we're angry, that we're militant, that we're equivalent, in effect, to some wacky religion or other. I have to call myself an atheist (annoying in itself) because I'm cast in that mould by believers."

The article doesn't say any of those things. The article was in fact written by an atheist. That is explained in the first couple of paragraphs. You obviously didn't read it. Tell me why should anyone care about your uninformed opinion of the article? Please also tell me where you find the arrogance to express it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 11:47 PM

Mr. Shaw,

"You seriously need to inspect and extend your vocabulary. You worship God, you do not worship money. You may lustfully acquire it, steal it, bamboozle people out of it, hoard it, count it, fret about it. You do not do those things with your God. Choose a different word. You do not worship sex. You seek it, yearn for it if you can't get it, fail at it, dream about getting it, worry that God or your dead granny is watching what you get up to. Not worship. Wrong word."

Pretty strong criticism from a man who said that Hell is minor discomfort and Heaven a sip of whiskey. Would you please apologize to Little Hawk because he did no more than take the same poetic liberties that you did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 11:58 PM

I see the role of "atheist" much in the same way as I am a "non smoker." I was subjected to cigarette smoke against my will for many years, and when I protested I met defensive and angry put-downs. Now that that worm has turned, I insist that smokers take it elsewhere and not intrude on my space. The same with bible-thumpers.

Resisting the status quo doesn't make you militant or strident. Speaking your mind and making your preferences known is just that. If religious folk see that as militant, that is THEIR problem.

I've only glanced at the article, but the lines "I now draw a sharp line, based not on what exactly they believe but on their level of dogmatism. I consider dogmatism a far greater threat than religion per se" ring true.

This paragraph, though, is as far as one seems to need to read: "Religion looms as large as an elephant in the United States, to the point that being nonreligious is about the biggest handicap a politician running for office can have, bigger than being gay, unmarried, thrice married, or black. This is upsetting, of course, and explains why atheists have become so vocal in demanding their place at the table. They prod the elephant to see whether they can get it to make some room. But the elephant also defines them, because what would be the point of atheism in the absence of religion?"

A philosophy of life without reference to the judeo-christian or other industrial religions is entirely possible - as long as you don't let them control the discussion and define the terms. Humans are superstitious - chances are there has been some form of religion in most cultures going back a very long time. For many people today a combination of ethics and science takes care of how they deal with others and provides answers to how things work. Those people are observant of nature and the world around them and think about it without reference to a supernatural god. Philosophers come in all stripes, some are religious. Most of those I know or know of, aren't. Every so often some holy-roller comes to my door and wants to bring me into their fold. On the times that I have actually engaged them in any kind of conversation, I've suggested we drop the scripture they want to use to define the conversation and instead use the writings of some of the important 20th century French philosophers.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 12:18 AM

Although SOME atheists like churchiness, none are dogmatic; where would dogma come from?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 12:58 AM

"none are dogmatic".   Right.   Just try reading some of the religion threads here.

Mudcat atheists are the soul of tolerance.    Sure they are.

Some (not including Bill D and Amos) believe as strongly that they are correct and that the religious have no clue as any fundamentalist believes his or her own view is the only correct one.

In fact at least one has confirmed the thesis of the OP.    I'll be glad to point it out when the next one does.

It will be interesting to monitor this thread and see just how tolerant the usual Mudcat atheists are.

Have at it, boys.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:39 AM

To Whom It May Concern:

If you don't doubt what you believe (or disbelieve) at times, then you and I may have a problem. A good dose of doubt, makes a person tolerant and willing to look at things from the perspective of others.

If you can tell me what I believe, without my telling you myself, then I think we probably have a problem there, too.

Respectfully,

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:10 AM

As usual, from the thread title on, it is definitions [or, rather, 'over-definitions'] that we are arguing about.

"You are making a 'religion' of atheism [or sex or food or Adele or sunbathing] by 'worshipping' them."

"No, that is not what 'religion' or 'worship' really mean."

"Well, what would you call it then?"

& so on [& on & on & on ...]

Let's have a little traditional song, shall we?, so we can move all this above the line. All together, now ~~

"Here we go round the mulberry bush, the mul...."

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 03:29 AM

Another misguided case of judging others by your own delusions I suppose.

I get rather fed up of saying I am not an atheist. Sailor boy's thread here makes my case perfectly.   Atheism is a word invented by superstitious people as a negative word. Me? Im irreligious. Not militant, just fed up with the social influence of fantasy and mind control of the lowest order.

Tolerant? Yes. Where it is reciprocated. To date that would be the Quakers and The Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster. (The reformed Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster can be chippy buggers though. )


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 05:03 AM

People constantly use the word "religion" as if it were equivalent to "faith". The Latin word "religio" from which it comes means obligation or bond, and the word still carries an implication of being part of a more or less ordered group, with a common set of beliefs and practice.

Atheism is clearly a faith, but it's hard to see how it really qualifies as a religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 05:18 AM

Sorry. Serious question for once.

How can you say atheism is a faith if those to whom faith is an irrelevance get tarred with the atheist brush?

I appreciate your dictionary and ancient interpretation of religio but as 99% of people bandying words around don't know or appreciate that, we are led to reading their words as intended.

I do exhibit faith. To Sheffield Wednesday. And looking at the league table I see many parallels. ..


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 07:07 AM

Ah, so much to come back at (and I will, but time is short this morning). But I couldn't help but pick up this gem:

Some (not including Bill D and Amos) believe as strongly that they are correct and that the religious have no clue as any fundamentalist believes his or her own view is the only correct one.

I have no time for any "atheist" who expresses their standpoint as a certainty. The world's most famous atheist puts himself at 6.9 on his own scale of 0 to 7 with 0 = certainly a God and 7 = certainly no God. He cheerfully subscribed to the London bus campaign that stated "There is probably no God..." I have never, in thousands of posts I've made about faith and religion, said that there is no God. I have said only that the evidence I can honestly glean, and my interpretation of it, suggests that the probability of his existing is vanishingly small. I can't say I don't believe in God because I honestly don't know whether there is one, though my conclusion is that I can happily get on with my life unconcerned about any influence he might have on me now, might have had in the past or may have in the future. Quotes such as the above represent the typically intolerant, ill-considered caricature of those poor souls who are perceived to be not in their camp. The cry of the scared Christian: those who criticise our faith and take a different world view (especially those who express it, and especially especially those who express it bluntly, as bluntly as faiths express themselves with their "certainties") are fundamentalist, we have an atheist faith, we have an atheist belief system, we are evangelical, we are militant, it's really just a perverted kind of religion. Actually, when you think about it, we are none of the above. We literally have nothing to get together and talk about and make plans over. We have no organisation. No schools in which to indoctrinate children. We nearly always merely react. Some of us are quite good at that (I always think it's easier to be good at it when you tell yourself you will not be derailed from rationality). This thread was started by a Christian. Just thought I'd mention it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 07:31 AM

The article doesn't say any of those things. The article was in fact written by an atheist. That is explained in the first couple of paragraphs. You obviously didn't read it. Tell me why should anyone care about your uninformed opinion of the article? Please also tell me where you find the arrogance to express it.

Excuse me, but I read it end to end. The writer, paradoxically, thinks that the type of atheist that he himself isn't (and I disagree vehemently with the classification he adheres to in any case) makes far too much noise, yet here he is making an awful lot of noise himself in telling us not to be so noisy. He is an atheist but he writes like many a Christian. The Vatican should be paying him a shilling or two. He has nothing new to say. Parenthetically, he is wrong in saying that the biggest disadvantage for an American politician is non-belief. The biggest disadvantage for an American politician is to want to open your mouth in criticism of Israel, indulgence in which is the certain way to end your career. Far worse. He attempts to stun us with his rhetorical mention of Hitchens favouring Dick Cheney over Mother Teresa. The pause at the end of that sentence was to accommodate some time for righteous tut-tutting and sanctimonious head-shaking from his "audience". Unfortunately, anyone who has ever looked in Mother Teresa's life knows that Hitchens was spot on with his choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 07:32 AM

As Steve Shaw said: "We are not equal and opposites to believers."

Exactly!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 07:33 AM

"You seriously need to inspect and extend your vocabulary. You worship God, you do not worship money. You may lustfully acquire it, steal it, bamboozle people out of it, hoard it, count it, fret about it. You do not do those things with your God. Choose a different word. You do not worship sex. You seek it, yearn for it if you can't get it, fail at it, dream about getting it, worry that God or your dead granny is watching what you get up to. Not worship. Wrong word."

Pretty strong criticism from a man who said that Hell is minor discomfort and Heaven a sip of whiskey. Would you please apologize to Little Hawk because he did no more than take the same poetic liberties that you did.


The perfect embodiment of mischievous disingenuousness. And Talisker is whisky, not whiskey, ignoramus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 08:13 AM

"Militant Atheism"" - an oxymoron if ever there was one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: John P
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 08:49 AM

What a bunch of utter bullshit. If you want to say that "some atheists care as much about their atheism as some Christians care about their religion" I might be able to go along with it. But saying that atheism is a religion, or that some atheists are religious, is like saying that I'm a stamp collector because I don't have a stamp collection. It is more logical and more true to say that all Christians are Satan worshipers.

Jack the Sailor, I think you are a really good person, but this thread is really offensive. Be ashamed.

Ron Davies, we're all tired of your bullshit response every time this subject comes up. You are wrong, you can't prove what you say, and you are exhibiting bigotry. Be ashamed.

Joe, I rather liked your response. I have to confess that I have no doubt whatsoever (speaking unscientifically) that the God described in the Bible does not exist. But if your words are taken to heart by any of the offensive "you're just like me" crowd, I will be glad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 08:49 AM

Yes, Greg, along with such characterisations as "bitter ex-Catholics" that we often have to endure. It's a casual and easy way of achieving instant demonisation. A good atheist putting his or her well-considered arguments has had to go against a massive tide. They have worked hard. They do not deserve to be shot down by the kind of resort to lazy thinking that is implied by the title of the thread, or by the writer of that article, or by the oft-parroted, by not just him I hasten to add, received wisdoms of Ron Davies. That's where the true noise in these conversations always comes from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:08 AM

There was one nugget of real interest, which I would like to have had in a recent discussion.

""In Puebla, D'Souza featured near-death experiences as scientific proof of the afterlife. After a brush with death, some patients report having floated outside of their bodies or having entered a tunnel of light. This surely seems bizarre, but D'Souza failed to bring up new neuroscience of a small brain area known as the temporo-parietal junction (TPJ). This area gathers information from many senses (visual, tactile, and vestibular) to construct a single image of our body and its place in the environment. Normally, this image is nicely coherent across all senses, so that we know who and where we are. The body image is disturbed, however, as soon as the TPJ is damaged or stimulated with electrodes. Scientists can deliberately make people feel that they are hovering above their own body or looking down on it, or have them perceive a copy of themselves sitting next to them, like a shadow ("I looked younger and fresher than I do now. My double smiled at me in a friendly way"). Together with the hallucinogenic qualities of anesthetic drugs and the effects of oxygen depletion on the brain, science is getting close to a materialist explanation of near-death experiences.

Frans de Waal is the author of "Our Inner Ape," among many other works. He is the C.H. Candler professor in Emory University's psychology department. He has been named one of Time magazine's 100 Most Influential People.
""

His credentials also seem impressive.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:10 AM

With all due respect (ie not much) it seems to me that what many object to about religion is not that the religious believe that there is a god but that they believe that they are entitled, in the name of their god, to demand that those who do not believe in that god obey its rules.

Look at all the evils committed in the name of religion, from the human sacrifices of old to the crusader invasions of the East Mediterranean to the fantastic repression and even genocide by the Roman Catholics to the religious cries of the (thankfully fairly atypical) Islamist bomber or proponent of stoning for "sex outside marriage" when in fact raped or challenge of morality rules by FEMEN.

Has not religion done and does not religion do more harm than good?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:50 AM

Many worship money. Some worship football teams, me for instance. I used to worship Kate Bush but that's another matter.

Since when has the word worship been exclusive to your imaginary friend? At least money, football and Kate Bush exist.

Just as atheist is a word so is worship. No bugger has the monopoly on either.

When I signed up to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster in order to take the piss out of the monitoring forms I have to declare in my work, a friend said it isn't real and as I was baptised as a baby I am a Christian. Bollocks. I signed up of my own free will which makes me a real pastafarian. Albeit one who believes the silly bits as much as an intelligent person who claims to be Christian does..


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Jack Sprocket
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:59 AM

If atheism is to be considered just another religion, as theists appear to be arguing, can we please have Richard Dawkins on Thought For The Day and Sunday Worship?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 10:14 AM

Show me someone who "worships" money the way other people "worship" God, and I'll show you the lunatic asylum he's already in:

"Oh, cash of my fathers, please bless me and my family! Please give me the strength to face death! And, while I'm at it, thanks for teaching me how to behave and for creating the universe too!"

I detect significant differences.

By the way, atheism has never been so "militant" as in the USSR and its spin-offs. But people could still pray inside their heads. If religion could survive Stalin and Mao, it can survive democratic secular humanists.

I'm not endorsing or condemning either religion or atheism, by the way. Just observing the facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 10:54 AM

well... since I am referenced above, I will say this: I prefer to be known as a skeptic, not as an atheist- meaning that I just doubt, because of lack of convincing evidence, the claims and language of most dedicated believers. If it were relevant, I would bet a dollar that the Universe has no intelligent designer, but the bet is silly as we just can't settle it. (I can list many ways in which a designer, if one existed and was so moved, could settle the bet, but lacking such intervention, I can only shrug).
It upsets frustrates me that some 'atheists' are so militant that they cause articles to be written. (he said, with a bit of irony implied)

I do agree that much of the argument here (and the title of the thread) is based in language and the logical fallacy called Equivocation. (For those who don't click on links, it just means that people are using words differently and thus talking past each other.)(I have debated Little Hawk on this for years.)

My personal attitude is that I fully understand why the history of humanity is laced with various religious threads, and therefore I try very hard to respect that basic feeling, as long as it is not accompanied by proselytizing. I will even say further that if I were given a button that instantly caused all humans to be convinced that their previous religious ideas were wrong, I would not push that button. If atheism/skepticism is the wave of the (far distant) future, I'd prefer it just gradually seeps in. .... and if there is a god who cares about being known AS a god, I'd pefer it not be so coy and wait thousands of years between messages.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 11:17 AM

Hmm. Assuming there was any Godly message in the first pace. Evidence, dear boy, evidence... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 11:49 AM

Oh hear the rabid turncoat
Just how he does rant and rail
He'd shoot the flaming lot of them
And hang them ower the pale.

He sees no good in others
Aye looking for the bad
He's shouting on street corners
He really looks quite mad.

There is good and bad in all men
It really gets my goat
When folk stop seeing people
And judge the blooming coat

Tis the thought of revolution
It allows a man to kill
The man who was his neighbour
And bore him no ill will


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: pdq
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 12:58 PM

The official American face of the religion of...

                                                                                              Atheism


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:06 PM

About Mr. Shaw...

Well it is clear that Shaw is on this thread for the mischief, Saying he read the article, referencing things that are not there then pretending he has read it by referencing things he has read on this thread. Then the final straw, When it was pointed out that he was attacking Little Hawk for an action very similar to his own, the childish insult over me using the common spelling for whiskey where I live was telling. Wasn't it.

I am not accusing Shaw of belonging to a religion. But he acts a lot like Meryl Streep The head nun in the movie Doubt doesn't he.

It seems quite the act of blind faith, very similar to religious martyrdome, on a small scale, to try to change the world by insulting non-believers (in what you believe) one at a time.

Which brings me to the point of the article.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:09 PM

Richard Bridge: when you say,"Has not religion done and does not religion do more harm than good?", it occurs to me that that same could be said of all of the institutions and enterprises constructed by humans. Regarding the acrimony that seems to underlie everything on this forum, might one not ask, "Has not Mudcat done, and does not Mudcat do, more harm than good?"

I think Mudcat is dying, since so much of what was good is gone, and so much of what is left is embodied in this thread. I, for one, will miss even the most contentious of you, so everybody, please leave a way that we can check up on you from time to time (though Steve Shaw, for instance, is one of a kind, there are many who use that name, so Googling doesn't help much).


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:16 PM

John P. If I bear shame it is for not explaining my opinion of the article more clearly. I do not fully buy the article's title which was chosen by the editors at salon, No doubt to stir controversy among readers and "trends" on the twitter. I do not think that "Militant atheism has become a religion" but it is really clear to me that some militant atheists take on some of the less appealing traits and tactics of religious zealots. You must know how difficult to have a non-confrontational talk about a religious subject on this forum without being called "superstitious" or "silly." I have been using the term "evangelical atheist" for a while, I don't know if I was the first to use it. But I think not. It is a pretty obvious term once you see one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:23 PM

I think that "Mudcat is dying" would be a good subject for discussion on another thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:32 PM

Perhaps you will pray for it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:34 PM

The content of the article.

While I don't agree that the article proves the premise of the Salon.com title there are several gems in it that have enriched my understanding of evangelical atheism. There are also some interesting insights into primate behavior and into Mr Der Waal's upbringing. All in all I thought it was well worth the read and well worth bringing to anyone here who might care to. Including Mr. Shaw ;-)


Mrrzy asked...

"Although SOME atheists like churchiness, none are dogmatic; where would dogma come from? "


This is one of the places in the article where Franz der Waal addresses that point.

"Then there is the persistent myth that science trumps religion in every possible way, and that science distracts from religion, and vice versa, as in a zero-sum game. This approach goes back to nineteenth-century American polemists, who famously declared that if it were up to religion, we'd still believe in a flat earth. This was pure propaganda, however. Speculation about our planet's roundness began with Aristotle and other ancient Greeks, and every major scholar during the so-called Dark Ages was fully aware of it. Dante's "Divine Comedy" portrays the earth as a sphere, and the exterior panel of Bosch's Garden triptych takes an in-between approach by showing a flat earth floating in a transparent ball surrounded by a black cosmos. When it comes to evolution, too, there is a tendency to point at religion as a solid opponent while ignoring that the Roman Catholic Church never formally condemned Darwin's theory or put his works on the Index (the list of forbidden books). The Vatican has endorsed evolution as a valid theory compatible with the Christian faith. Admittedly, its endorsement came a bit late, but it is good to realize that resistance to evolution is almost entirely restricted to evangelical Protestants in the American South and Midwest."


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:35 PM

I pray for you Musket. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:46 PM

Bless you my son.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:53 PM

The difference between agnostics and atheists is that the latter do have "a faith", by which I mean a settled belief about how the world works. If it's only provisional, a matter of "probably", or even "almost certainly", they are agnostics.

While in many parts of the world atheists may reasonably see themselves as battling against "a massive tide", that is hardly the case in England, at least in metropolitan England if anything it's the other way round, it. Is believers who are in that situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:02 PM

From the article.

"But I am not anymore. In my interactions with religious and nonreligious people alike, I now draw a sharp line, based not on what exactly they believe but on their level of dogmatism. I consider dogmatism a far greater threat than religion per se. I am particularly curious why anyone would drop religion while retaining the blinkers sometimes associated with it. Why are the "neo-atheists" of today so obsessed with God's nonexistence that they go on media rampages, wear T-shirts proclaiming their absence of belief, or call for a militant atheism? What does atheism have to offer that's worth fighting for?

As one philosopher put it, being a militant atheist is like "sleeping furiously.""


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:11 PM

Just to be serious for a minute..

Religion is expanding and more people apply their religion to their everyday lives. Look at the rise of Islamic intolerance of others, look at Dumbfuckistan and their bible belt, look at UK religious leaders saying that discriminating against gay people isn't bigotry when you tell people Jesus thinks like they do...

No. It isn't militant atheism. It is seeing religious equality turning into religious privilege and that is worth resisting by intelligent people who prefer to be taught how to think rather than what to think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Wesley S
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:18 PM

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that after several hundred posts that no one will change their viewpoints on this matter and nothing will be decided. But I could be wrong....


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: bobad
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:25 PM

"I once wanted to be an atheist but I gave up... they have no holidays." -Henny Youngman


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:35 PM

It's called the BS section, WesleyS, because no matter importance of the issue, the discussions themselves amount to...well, you know...


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:37 PM

by which I mean a settled belief about how the world works

You're talking about science, perhaps? Science isn't a "belief" - its the way things are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:42 PM

Wesley. I started the thread, changing viewpoints was not a goal. I just wanted to talk about a subject that interests me and introduce a few interesting ideas from the article. That part, IMHO is going well. The noise of the Mudcat is what it is.

I have had tinnitus since the 70's when I went to too any rock music clubs. I complain about the tinnitus now and then. It does exactly as much good as complaining about the fighting on the Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:43 PM

"Religion is expanding and more people apply their religion to their everyday lives."

That's a hard thing to pin down. One recent survey disagrees. It may be that many people are applying religious principles without strict adherence to a belief system.
I know that the polarization has been more obvious recently, and a number of issues have caused more confrontation in various cultures. I would not personally make any claims about an overall trend yet. It's easier to predict trends in climate change.

(That survey has been quoted and discussed on many different sites recently)


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:57 PM

Bang on Stim. It is called BS for a reason. Although look at those who complain when someone pisses on their bonfire. You'd think they were holding a real debate with real people.

We don't exist, silly.

Just like.........


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 03:06 PM

"Why are the "neo-atheists" of today so obsessed with God's nonexistence that they go on media rampages, wear T-shirts proclaiming their absence of belief, or call for a militant atheism?"

Are they? The whole premise of the article rests on whether or not you actually believe that to be true. Personally I don't, so, to quote Sillitoe's Arthur Seaton, "….all the rest is propaganda".


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 03:46 PM

Almost all single issue stances, seem to acquire an aura of a crusade.
What I cannot understand is this compulsion towards total acceptance, whether one wants to, or not.
I adhere to the old Groucho Marx maxim, I wouldn't want to be a member of any club, that would accept me, as a member. Or words to that effect.
Why are y'all so deperate to be accepted, treated as normal?
Dare to be different, it's much more interesting!
People who agree with me, can be just as wrong as those who disagree with me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 03:46 PM

TheLeveler,

The last part of the article revolves around a conference in Mexico where the author witnessed such things.

I think it is fair to say that things have happened which you have not witnessed. You lack of experience with them does not mean these things do not exist.

I am going to Google it.

Search 1 "Neoatheists

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism

"The term is commonly associated with individuals such as Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens (together called "the Four Horsemen of New Atheism" in a taped 2007 discussion they held on their criticisms of religion, a name that has stuck),[2] along with Victor J. Stenger,[3] Lawrence M. Krauss and A.C. Grayling.[4] Several best-selling books by these authors, published between 2004 and 2007, form the basis for much of the discussion of New Atheism.[5]"

I have seen the "media rampages" myself on Youtube. Haven't you?

Search 2: "Atheist tee shirts."

There are plenty of them for sale. I can only speculate about who is wearing them but I suspect that many are being worn by atheists trying to push their point of view.

Search 3: "Call for militant atheism"

This video appears to be Richard Dawkins calling for militant atheism. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxGMqKCcN6A

I am satisfied that the author has made a point worth considering. If you read his arguments and consider them in context.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 03:49 PM

When asked, "Where is that smell coming from?" my biochemist roommate launched into a lesson about putriscine, cadaverine and the decarboxylation of lysine. He did not, however, explain why he'd put a raw chicken in a pan and left it in the cabinet next to the stove for a month.

This, to me, has always been the problem with science.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 03:51 PM

Excellent! Stim!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:14 PM

Compelling arguments from Steve Shaw here. Obviously he has the not insignificant advantage that logic is on his side but, even so, his comments are extremely well expressed; not least his quarrel with Little Hawk's misappropriation of vocabulary.

Several times I felt moved to chip in with thoughts of my own, only to find that Steve has already expressed them. So it remains only for me to take issue with McGrath, whose characterisation of me as a person of faith is offensive. (The fact that I believe in no god makes me - if words mean anything - an atheist. Atheism, according to McG, is a faith.)

Wrong, McGrath. I interpret the evidence before us all as establishing that our universe evolved from a big bang. Many religious people accept the same. But that's sod-all to do with faith. If I am asked what came before the big bang or what caused it, I can say only that no supernatural force was necessary but that a supernatural force could nevertheless have been involved.

I do not go as far as Stephen Hawking, who has argued that no god could have brought about the big bang because before the big bang, time did not exist and therefore there was no time for any god to do his work. I don't go that far if only because I know the answer: God can do anything.

On what basis does McG presume to say that my thoughts about all this, or Hawking's for that matter, are a faith?

Incidentally I did read the linked article and considered it thoughtless. It doesn't need rocket science to understand why some atheists fight their corner more forcefully than the article's author apparently does.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:24 PM

Jack, existence does not equal prevalence.

For instance:

http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/


http://www.zazzle.co.uk/flat_earth_society_shirts-235093236610040717


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:24 PM

"I do not go as far as Stephen Hawking, who has argued that no god could have brought about the big bang because before the big bang, time did not exist and therefore there was no time for any god to do his work. "

If find this highly unlikely. It would indicate that Mr. Hawking does not know what a singularity is and that would be a surprise to me because I learned what a singularity is from Mr. Hawking's writings.

We, Mr. Hawking included, I would hope, who accept the definition of a singularity make no presumptions about what can occur within a singularity because by definition, we cannot know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:30 PM

theleveller

Your post is very cryptic.

Please consider that I was quoting Mr der Waals argument about the source of the dogma. I think he made a reasonable point. I remember repeating that dogma myself and being very surprised to find that ancient Greeks had thought that the world was a sphere and had calculated the diameter.

I hope I addressed the correct point in this reply.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:55 PM

> "Why are the "neo-atheists" of today so obsessed with God's nonexistence that they go on media rampages, wear T-shirts proclaiming their absence of belief, or call for a militant atheism?"

De Waal must live in a unique area. For every outspoken atheist I've seen on American TV (few if any of whom I'd describe as "militant" and none wearing atheist T-shirts), I've seen a score of clergymen and lay fudamentalists, some of them raving about a so-called "War on Christmas" (which allegedly has been going on for at least a decade with no obvious success) and now a follow-up "War on Easter."

They seem to believe that Christians are, really, a persecuted minority.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: sciencegeek
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 05:11 PM

In college I had a friend who was a "vocal" atheist... who then became a "Jesus Freak", including the smiley button. I figured he had become an atheist to spite god and then repented. Whatever..

I spent 8 years in Catholic elementary school and finally gave up trying to be devout, or even Catholic. The hypocricy was more than I could stand... including my lip service to the dogma. The fact was and is that I just do not believe in any form of theology... that requires some faith, which I just do not have.

As long as someone doesn't try to shove their beliefs onto me, it's let's agree to disagree... don't put your religious dogma into laws that affect me... don't bomb folks who believe differently than you...

My feeling is that waging war over religion is as stupid/insane/pointless as fighting over belief in the tooth fairy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 05:34 PM

"De Waal must live in a unique area. "

According to the article, suburban Atlanta. I have no doubt he has witnessed these things.

"Why are the "neo-atheists" of today so obsessed with God's nonexistence that they go on media rampages, wear T-shirts proclaiming their absence of belief, or call for a militant atheism?"

three quick Googles convinced me that they exist to some degree.

It is just one point in a much longer book.

I love the book title The Bonobo and the Atheist


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 08:20 PM

> I have no doubt he has witnessed these things.

Me neither. I just don't think his experience is typical of the whole country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 08:57 PM

It is quite remarkable, having just got in after a long day, to see how the perpetrator of this thread has handled himself. First, he posts a link to a very long article from which he quotes about two lines and adds no comment of his own (why the hell did he post it at all, I wondered, apart from to say that here's a bloody great big long article which I agree with and I think I'll let it do all my work...) Then, of course, and risibly, when I responded he accused me of not reading it (odd, that, as it had occurred to me from his opening post that he'd only managed a quick bit of cherrypicking himself, but, as I didn't know that for sure, I thought better about saying it). During the day he's done what he should have done at the outset (stung into getting off his arse?) and revisited bits of the thing in order to comment on it.

Now I said that the article was of little interest and was a pain to wade through. Yer ex-Catholic, atheistic author simply expounds the tired old reactions to the alleged new atheism that has been trotted out so many times before. We neo-atheists (has he paused, by the way, to consider the inflammatory insult-potential of that stupid expression? Thought not!) are vehemently opposed to religion and resent its privileges in society. These atheists don't think that disbelief should be kept locked up in the closet. They speak of "coming out," a terminology borrowed from the gay movement, as if their nonreligiousness was a forbidden secret that they now want to share with the world. Well I never! He and Jack ought to get together, get out more and find us some of these miserable people. It is a lamentably poor characterisation, not even a caricature. In fact, they don't exist (and I know a lot of atheists who make so bold as to not keep conveniently silent about it). The writer's thesis that activist atheism reflects trauma. The stricter one's religious background, the greater the need to go against it and to replace old securities with new ones…… is just about the most stale part of a very stale article. The good old "bitter ex-Catholic" notion will always fill the gap nicely for a lazy non-thinker such as yer man, and why not take it a demonising step further and imagine that we're traumatised into the bargain. Nutty or what. We have inner demons to be kept at bay... in the same way that firefighters are sometimes stealth arsonists and homophobes closet homosexuals, [why] do some atheists secretly long for the certitude of religion? Not only do we harbour demons (so who needs demonising!), we lust after certitude. I told you, Jack, up the thread that neither Dawkins nor Shaw demands or requires certitude. Certitude is the enemy of atheism, stripping it of all its rationality. The article is full of absurdities but that one is the most wrong-headed of the lot. In this conversation all the certitude lies in the laps of believers (with honourable exceptions such as Joe). Your prayers, your hymns, your edicts, your traditions, what you tell your kids, and our towns and cities full of religious symbolism everywhere, are replete with certitude. Yet the most militant "neo-atheist" in the world says only that there is probably no God. Next, we are "poor listeners", then he goes on to ridicule a big university debate he went to. Well I'll tell you what. YouTube is full of Richard Dawkins debating religion and atheism in their various facets with all manner of eminent opponents, and I challenge you to find a more careful listener than he.

Jack, your article is more of the same old poppycock that says nice atheists are quiet and well-mannered (we can put up with them, they're OK) while the other sort are just petulant, demon-ridden, noisy morons. In a world in which religion is the default mode even in allegedly "secular" countries (which all have their mosques, synagogues and churches, decorated with God-glorifying symbolism shouting its questionable message to the world, not just to the flock, and "faith" schools to which parents may choose to send their unfortunate offspring in order to be indoctrinated just like they once were), you should be welcoming those few voices (and it ain't that many of us, let's face it!) that might just get a few more people not joining us (we ain't like that) but at least beginning to ask some of the right questions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:08 PM

We, Mr. Hawking included, I would hope, who accept the definition of a singularity make no presumptions about what can occur within a singularity because by definition, we cannot know.

That's fine, as long as you will also agree not to think up the most unlikely fantasy-ridden stuff that breaks all the laws of nature and then tell us that we can't know it wasn't in that singularity. Chocolate teapots going round Mars and all that, you know?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:11 PM

"Me neither. I just don't think his experience is typical of the whole country. "

Which country? In the article he talks about an Englishman (Hitchens) at a conference in Mexico.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:13 PM

When asked, "Where is that smell coming from?" my biochemist roommate launched into a lesson about putriscine, cadaverine and the decarboxylation of lysine. He did not, however, explain why he'd put a raw chicken in a pan and left it in the cabinet next to the stove for a month.
This, to me, has always been the problem with science.


Hmm. Perhaps, in a kind way, he was gently persuading you to up your game a bit and learn enough science for you to avoid being taken in. It behoves us all, you know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:16 PM

QWhich country? ANY country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:34 PM

The difference between agnostics and atheists is that the latter do have "a faith", by which I mean a settled belief about how the world works. If it's only provisional, a matter of "probably", or even "almost certainly", they are agnostics.

An "atheist" who professes absolute certainty is not a proper atheist, just a twit. So, going from that and from what you say, there are not really any atheists at all. Certainly, Dawkins doesn't fit the bill, and neither do I. But I'm not bothered. In any case, "atheist" is an unfortunate word with negative undertones and I'll shed it without regret if you insist. But that leads to your next problem in that what you're left with, "agnostics", is woefully inadequate in expressing the spectrum of convictions from the debating almost-certain thinking near-atheist right down to the don't-give-a-shit-about-none-of-that-stuff bloke down the pub, with plenty of in-betweens. My view is that "agnostic" bears too much connotation of unsure fence-sitting blending to apathy. There a brand of lily-livered-ism, too, that passes for "agnostic", the insurance policy brigade. Just a thought. I can't really be arsed to argue the point, to be honest.   

While in many parts of the world atheists may reasonably see themselves as battling against "a massive tide", that is hardly the case in England, at least in metropolitan England if anything it's the other way round, it. Is believers who are in that situation.

It depends on whether you open your mouth. In our local paper yer in Cornwall where church and chapel hold sway, a brave chap frequently gets an atheistic polemic printed in the letters pages (lovely chap though he has too little regard for outcome, unfortunately). He gets plenty of flak and not a lot of support. I know we don't get shot at much or locked away for heresy these days. I'm not especially aware of believers having to fight back the tide. Not round here anyway. One thing you do NOT bring up down the pub is religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:38 PM

I would class your position as being agnostic, Peter K. And that I would not describe as a faith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:52 PM

though Steve Shaw, for instance, is one of a kind, there are many who use that name, so Googling doesn't help much).

Just add the name of the instrument I play to "Steve Shaw"! If nothing else it'll persuade you that I'm a real geezer. You do have to wonder about some of the people round here... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 10:37 PM

Me: "I do not go as far as Stephen Hawking, who has argued that no god could have brought about the big bang because before the big bang, time did not exist and therefore there was no time for any god to do his work."

Jack: If find this highly unlikely.

Whoops - that must be blind faith, Jack, as the evidence that Hawking has put forward exactly that argument is there for all to read in The Grand Design, which he co-authored and you have obviously not read.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 11:39 PM

I find it much much less likely that you quoted him accurately. Because, if he did that he contradicted his own definition. Do you have any idea how many times some jackass misquotes a celebrity on the internet or even more common how many times a celebrity's name is falsely put on a quote?

Whoops, the problem I have with faith is with you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_singularity

"According to general relativity, the initial state of the universe, at the beginning of the Big Bang, was a singularity."

I have read Dr. Hawking say that we cannot know what is in a singularity because NO INFORMATION other than gravitation force escapes from a singularity. For the Big Bang singularity there was not even an external universe from which to measure it. You are saying that somehow, now by claiming that he has somehow measured or deduced the lack of the passage of time from measurements within this singularity and positively reported that there was none and that therefor there is no God.

I heard no report that he has a brain tumor and therefor I don't believe you. Sorry. Do you have the book? can you give me an exact quote so that I can look it up?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 11:43 PM

"An "atheist" who professes absolute certainty is not a proper atheist, just a twit"

To that "twit" definition I would a and atheist who bullies and taunts people about things he claim not to believe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:05 AM

Peter K. I owe you an apology. Apparently Dr. Hawking did make the argument much as you described it Here it is.. I also commend you for not going that far.

It is a profoundly stupid argument. It can be easily counted with "Where did the singularity and all of the physical laws unfurled by the Big Bang come from?"

His very definition of time is as a measurement of time is basically the measurement of change in this Universe. It has no meaning before the Big Bang. But obviously the singularity existed to Bang before the Universe we know existed and something made it go Bang. And by his own definition of singularity he has no possible source of information about what caused the bang or how long it took to cause it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:07 AM

Jack, your belief in what you think Hawking said is uplifting to uphold. Please don't be led astray by what is there on the printed page in his last book. Faith is a wonderful thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:08 AM

BTW the author of the link I posted makes some arguments against Hawking's statement as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TIA
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:11 AM

Atheism cannot possibly become a religion if you understand both of those two words.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:12 AM

I guess we cross posted there. Your speculation about my "faith" is at least as far off as mine about Hawking.

I promise not to mock it with broad condescending stereotypes :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:21 AM

I don't think that the editors at Salon who created that title meant to be precisely literal. As I said before, it seems that they were being provocative.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 01:04 AM

Here's a very pious-sounding wish from the Pope Francis thread:

    I can only hope---no I don't have the temerity to call it pray---for humans to continue to evolve psychologically past the social virus called religion.
    Atheism, freedom and truth await.

Yes, I'll freely admit that there is much harm done in the name of religion, especially in the name of my Catholic denomination. Still, I know a huge number of intelligent, fair-minded, loving people for whom religion is a very important part of their life. They are quite possibly just as intelligent and insightful as our poster. But for them, religion has meaning and value. However, they have a different perspective than has our poster, and our poster finds that unacceptable.

If you look around at the religious people at Mudcat, very few of them have any desire to proselytize, or to "lord" it over anyone. For the most part, they just want to be left alone.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 01:47 AM

"For the most part, they just want to be left alone."

I like to be left alone to intelligently discus my religious feelings with my friends on the Mudcat. But Evangelical atheists keep coming on threads and as Steve Shaw puts it "taunting me" so when I saw the article I thought maybe this guy has seen what I have seen.

But no. His experience is different from mine in many ways. But the article had several interesting ideas, and the guy is a primatologist and I am a big fan of bonobos and monkeys. So I posted it anyway.

Some people were interested. Some people took it personally. Some people expressed tangential opinions. That is in my opinion how we got to this point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 04:24 AM

"theleveller

Your post is very cryptic."

Simply pointing out that, if you look for them, you can find all kinds of strange beliefs expressed on the internet and on t-shirts. That doesn't mean they are are prevalent. Most of my friends are non-believers; I read widely about religious subjects - but militant athiesim, as expressed in this article, is not something I've encountered. So I'm saying that this article is, in my opinion, based on a small minority of people. He may just as well have chosen flat-earthers to write about, or those who consider Startreck is a religion. But then, it is based on what happens in the USA. In Britain we don't take religion anything like as seriously. Seems to me he's just a journalist scratching around for a contentious subject to write about to make a fast buck.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 05:50 AM

Sailor Jack wants to be left alone to discuss religion with his mates.

Fair play.

But publicly posting on the BS section of Mudcat precludes blinkered debate as the grown ups may want to join in.

As is their right.

I have a fascination with religion. I remain fascinated how intelligent people can see it as relevant.   I have every right to explore my fascination and others have the right to tell me to bugger off.

Snag is, I remsin curious because if your God is omnipotent rather than impotent, he / she should be able to brush off the carping and ridicule of immature idiots like me.

Do why be so touchy? Why keep looking for protection and finding ways of dreaming that lack of superstition is some sinister plot?

You started the bloody thread. Don't complain about where it is heading. .


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 09:23 AM

There are a load of these new proselytizing atheists out there, Leveller - they certainly DO exist.Very serious people intent on disproving the existence of Bertrand Russell's teapot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 10:14 AM

I'm not saying they don't exist - merely questioning whether they are as prolific as the article suggests. They don't seem to be a major force in the UK despite the fact that a majority of people do not now consider themselves to be religious and only 9% of the population regularly attends a church. That there are "a load" of "militant" atheists out there who are creating a new religion is totally fatuous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 10:29 AM

An interesting perspective on Buddhism, which some see as a religion, but may be more of a philosophy of life. I link it because, I observe that some Athiests are "coming together" and making initiatives to develop a form of life philosophy.

Buddhism-Religion or Philosophy of life?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 11:58 AM

Perhaps it's just that these atheists are getting more organized, but I come across them all the time in Ireland - particularly in left-wing and academic circles. Some of them can be very insulting to religious people. About this time ,last year there was a "crucifixion party" organized as an alternative to Good Friday in Dublin by people claiming to be atheists . The crudest stuff imaginable and all done in the name of freedom of speech . A lot of these new atheists started to make their presence felt in support of the Danish anti-Muslim cartoons a few years ago, then started turning their attention to Christians .

I do agree that we're not witnessing the birth of a a new religion as such , but people could be forgiven if they see eratz religion : the proselytizing ,all the talk about secular ethics , the organizing of atheist Sunday services etc.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:26 PM

IMO, it seems reasonable that there are a variety of perspectives among those who indicate thay believe in a God. Similararily, I expect there is a wide spectrum of perspectives among people who indicate thay do not believe in a God. My observation is there a whole lot of folks in the middle in both camps, who remain uncertain.

I suspect that more vocal folks in most movements are in the minority, not the majority. Rather than merely being comfortable with their own perspective, the actions of some seems to lean towards demonstrating some form of "surperior reasoning"? It seems to me that the focu is often to convert others to "see the light" of their viewpoint, rather than learning something from the perspectives of others?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: saulgoldie
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:45 PM

I don't care what religion or atheism anyone practices, as long as s/he does not force it on me by compelling me to perform certain acts or paying for it through my taxes. If Sikhs want to wear turbans, that is their business. If Muslim women choose to wear burkas, that is their business, and I am not hurt by it.

HOWEVER, if Christians want ten commandments--which ten, by the way?--placed on public ground, then it is an imposition on my freedom from religion. And I DO take offense at that. But militant? Like what, "preventing" them from believing in a diety? Or forcing them--how, by the way?--to say prayers or make pledges that are not their own? Or forcing them to ordain women?

Saul


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:57 PM

I can attest to the fact that he is absolutely right. The thing that some of you don't seem to understand is that over the last 40 years or so, a lot of religious fundamentalists, the "True Believers" have crossed over to the other side. Unfortunately, many of them have brought their dogmatic mindsets and their obsession with doctrine with them. They just embrace a different doctrine.

Back in the 60's, a friend of mine was fond of pointing out that just because somebody grew their hair long and smoked pot didn't mean that they'd stopped being a jerk. The rule still applies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 01:00 PM

I like to be left alone to intelligently discus my religious feelings with my friends on the Mudcat. But Evangelical atheists keep coming on threads and as Steve Shaw puts it "taunting me"

You post an article about a currently contentious matter in the already-contentious arena of discussion of religion - and you want to be left alone?? Jack, dear fellow, the content of the article you posted is highly controversial. It's about atheism and atheists and it is critical of a certain category of atheist (as defined by the author). Are you really telling me you expected the atheists that you know inhabit this forum to step aside while you and your fellow-believers have a cosy little natter about us, in public, in a thread, right in front of us?

Incidentally, I'd be obliged if you could point out to me the post where I put it that "evangelical atheists" were "taunting you". I don't recall making such a remark.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 01:18 PM

The thing that some of you don't seem to understand is that over the last 40 years or so, a lot of religious fundamentalists, the "True Believers" have crossed over to the other side. Unfortunately, many of them have brought their dogmatic mindsets and their obsession with doctrine with them.

Well if this is true (and I seriously doubt that it's a widespread phenomenon, to be honest), I think your analysis here is facile. What are you calling a "dogmatic mindset" exactly? The term sounds suspiciously like a derogatory characterisation of people who like to speak their minds but who you've fallen out intellectually with. Why not call them people of conviction instead? Atheism, whether you like it or not, does not possess dogmatic equivalence with the authoritarian aspects of religious teaching. Actually, apart from our uninterest in God, there is no dogma at all (and even that isn't really dogmatic, as long as you're a real atheist - sorry, McGrath! - who acknowledges doubt). It isn't the right word. Really, calling atheists dogmatic is no more than irritated, aimless lashing out, is it? I'd even quarrel with "mindset". Anyone who has made the sea-change you refer to has smashed their mindset to smithereens. I can hardly think of a more radical conversion, and you can't achieve that by retaining a large part of your previous mental stiffness: you really do have to change everything in your thinking. Perhaps you think that a certain kind of person has mindset-rigidity built into their genes and the trait will manifest itself in whatever walk of life their next hobby-horse rears its head. And perhaps I'll disagree with you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 02:19 PM

The use of terms like "militant", "atheist" and even "religion" is an attempt to put people in a box that's convenient for the opinion that the author wishes to express. It's a well-known totalitarian strategy: only when you can classify and categorise people can you criticise and, ultimately, control them. Don't get me wrong, many people like to be in a box – it gives them their sense of identity and belonging. For me, it's the ultimate insult. So, on the very rare occasions when someone asks me my religious beliefs, I say that I'm a free-thinker. Politically, I'm a utopian anarchist. This allows others to form their own opinions, which it's easy for me to refute, whilst, at the same time, it allows me to modify what I think in line with any new information I come across or when I have a 'lightbulb' moment.

And whilst on the subject of modifying your beliefs, one of the most pertinent things I ever heard from a religious person was whilst listening to Thought for the Day on Beeb 4 some years ago. A C of E bishop, whose humanity and intellect I respect (but whose name, unfortunately, for the moment escapes me) said something to the effect that the only people who really frighten him are not those who have no faith or belief but those whose belief is so steadfast that they have stopped searching.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 02:36 PM

"when someone asks me my religious beliefs, I say that I'm a free-thinker"...
,.,.,..
I just say I haven't got any.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: saulgoldie
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:01 PM

I heerd a few years back that the evangelist was knocking on doors, looking for converts. He knocked on the door of a Unitarian (probably didn't see the "question mark" hedge in the front yard). He asked her if she was a Christian. She said, "Oh, I'm at least that!"

Saul


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:08 PM

"the only people who really frighten him are not those who have no faith or belief but those whose belief is so steadfast that they have stopped searching"

Well put. Most of the religious people I know are continually searching and asking further questions. That's why I enjoy being around them, because they are continuing to search, and they are not resting on their laurels or clinging to rigid dogma. This is also true of the non-religious people I most enjoy being around...that their minds aren't all made up and aren't tied to any absolute dogma, but are continuing to look to further possibilities.

It's the ones who figure they've got it all neatly tied up and have no further questions to ask who worry me. So I agree with the bishop you mentioned, "leveller".

I've always been a freethinker. That's a person who thinks freely, for himself, realizes that he doesn't have all the answers, continues to search, continues to ask questions, is not constrained by official lines of dogma..........whether religious or otherwise. A freethinker may be religious, he may be secular, he can easily be either one or the other.

My point being, M, that freethinkers are found within the religions as well as outside them. Some of the most courageous and thoughtful freethinkers I've ever know are also religious.

The enemy of the freethinker is the dogmatist, and dogmatists are found both within and outside of religions. The thing they all share is the rigid presumption that their way is the ONLY right way...and that everyone else is wrong, perhaps even evil! You see these dogmatists in extreme political movements of all kinds, acting with or without any connection to religion. You also see them in extreme religious sects and proponents of extreme philosophies. There is in them a strong element of fear allied with an intent to dominate others. They are the enemies of both freethinking religion AND freethinking secular life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:20 PM

I'm just telling you how it is, Steve. What you think is, as always, your own business. As for myself, I will point out that it is as possible for people to be rigid, dogmatic and doctrinaire on any side of any issue.

And, actually, switching sides is not a radical conversion, because you're still playing the same game.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:36 PM

" merely questioning whether they are as prolific as the article suggests"

I don't think that the artist suggests that they prolific at all. I think that he points out that the do exist, that he is curious about them and that he saw some at a conference and he commented about that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:40 PM

"The thing that some of you don't seem to understand is that over the last 40 years or so, a lot of religious fundamentalists, the "True Believers" have crossed over to the other side. Unfortunately, many of them have brought their dogmatic mindsets and their obsession with doctrine with them. They just embrace a different doctrine."

This is one of the points explored in the article.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:45 PM

"The use of terms like "militant", "atheist" and even "religion" is an attempt to put people in a box that's convenient for the opinion that the author wishes to express. "

I don't think that you need to be insulted by this. I think it was aimed at Chris Hitchens and those doing the same work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 05:11 PM

I know that, Jack, but I also know that no one read the article. And no one read Eric Hoffer's "The True Believer", either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 06:26 PM

...it is as possible for people to be rigid, dogmatic and doctrinaire on any side of any issue.

All you're missing there, Stim, is that there is no equivalence. Atheism is a logical response to everything we know; religion is wishful thinking: the primitive mind's solution for what we can;t yet grasp.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 06:41 PM

>>>...it is as possible for people to be rigid, dogmatic and doctrinaire on any side of any issue.

All you're missing there, Stim, is that there is no equivalence. Atheism is a logical response to everything we know; religion is wishful thinking: the primitive mind's solution for what we can;t yet grasp. <<

Interesting that the point is proved in the argument against it, name calling, rigidity and dogma in a single sentence.

Calling our minds primitive has no basis in fact and undermines your claim to logic.

As Bill D said, some things cannot be proven one way or the other. Claiming that you know absolutely is rigid dogma. Not even Mr Shaw, who you say expresses your views, goes that far.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 07:19 PM

Thanks for proving the point, PeterK!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 07:48 PM

""It is rigid dogma that destroys truth; and, please notice, my emphasis is not on the dogma, but on the rigidity. When men say of any question, 'This is all there is to be known or said of the subject; investigation ends here,' that is death.It may be that the mischief comes not from the thinker but for the use made of his thinking by late-comers. Aristotle, for example, gave us out scientific technique ... yet his logical propositions, his instruction in sound reasoning which was bequeathed to Europe, are valid only within the limited framework of formal logic, and, as used in Europe, they stultified the minds of whole generations of mediaeval Schoolmen. Aristotle invented science, but destroyed philosophy.""
— Alfred North Whitehead, Dialogues of Alfred North Whitehead


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 08:58 PM

All you're missing there, Stim, is that there is no equivalence. Atheism is a logical response to everything we know; religion is wishful thinking: the primitive mind's solution for what we can;t yet grasp.

You beat me to it, Peter. Equivalence between religious belief and the shunning of same is a completely bogus invention of religion. If it weren't for the fact that we are undeniably flesh and blood, we would be no more than a figment of the imaginations of the faithful. And if there were no faithful, we, without doing a single stroke, wouldn't exist at all, and not one scrap of philosophy would have been lost.

And, actually, switching sides is not a radical conversion, because you're still playing the same game.

And what game would that be? Atheists, Stim, are not tacticians. We don't even make up teams. To play a game we need a pitch, but we have none. The only pitch is on your turf, which, of course, is exactly where you want us. But our evanescence will continue to elude you. We are only here because you need us here, a foil to your insecurity of belief. There is no game! There are no sides, no pitch, no teams, no tactics! We don't compete! Not much of a game, eh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 09:08 PM

religion is....the primitive mind's solution for what we can't yet grasp.

I note that both Jack and Stim appeared to have taken offence at this, yet it is the exact position of religion, ironically, virtually as religion defines itself. We are not to question that which is beyond science. No matter how improbable, no matter how he breaks all nature's laws, God is God and faith must trump questions. Our feeble minds cannot grasp it. We must, instead, relish the mystery! It's a shame you don't care for what Peter said, considering that it's the very basis of and rationale for all religious belief. Aren't you both scratching your heads?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 09:21 PM

"Aren't you both scratching your heads?"

I might if I expected your to make sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 09:47 PM

I might if I expected your             to make sense.


Heheh...


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 10:02 PM

""Outside the practice of science itself, scientists have sometimes been the greatest offenders in adhering to dogmatic ideas against all the evidence"".
— Mary B. Hesse, Science and the Human Imagination: Aspects of the History and Logic of Physical Science (1955).


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 10:09 PM

""I can still recall vividly how Freud said to me, 'My dear Jung, promise me never to abandon the sexual theory. That is the most essential thing of all. You see, we must make a dogma of it, an unshakable bulwark' ... In some astonishment I asked him, 'A bulwark-against what?' To which he replied, 'Against the black tide of mud'—and here he hesitated for a moment, then added—'of occultism'.""
— Carl Jung,Memories, Dreams, Reflections


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 10:22 PM

The most important bit of your two posts is the phrase "Outside the practice of science itself..." Vital to remember that charlatanism in science is not of science.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:01 AM

Dogmatism about Science to justify atheism. Dr der Waal would be pleased!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 01:02 AM

I am never truly offended by anything you say, Steve, because I don't take you very seriously. I hope you're not offended by that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 01:39 AM

Militant atheism has become a religion


I'll believe that when it has a tax-free status.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:04 AM

Well I take you seriously. I respond carefully to what you post. Just because you may not like it, it doesn't mean my response wasn't serious. It means "I don't agree with you, and here's why..." I suggest that if you don't take seriously someone who takes you seriously, you'd better be careful that you're not taken for a fool.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:08 AM

Dogmatism about Science to justify atheism.

Anyone care to explain what this means?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:16 AM

It means the same as anything else where the supernatural and metaphysical has to be shoehorned into rational debate....

Considering "science" doesn't justify anything other than what is observed and deduced, and considering no branch of science has, to my knowledge, proved that there is no intelligent force somewhere behind observing rats running in cages, it means Sailor Boy has been looking up words in his dictionary. In fact, all "science" has proposed is that the evidence doesn't fall in line with the scriptures organised religions depend on.

And that pisses off a few people. Mainly those who have comfort blankets and especially those who sell them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 09:26 AM

It explains not being willing to look outside one's usual favorite habits and assumptions. It also means thinking that your usual way of doing things is the ONLY valid way of doing things, and that no other approach to life is even worthy of your consideration.

For instance, you might get a person who respects nothing except math and science and logic...and material things. (like my father)

How is he going to assess what is a good poem and what is not a good poem? Math, science, and logic will not assist him in doing so.

My father was incapable of assessing what is a good poem and what is not a good poem (and he freely admitted to this on one occasion I remember)...because it didn't fall in an area he could relate to...or wanted to relate to.

This didn't mean, ipso facto, that there are no good or bad poems, and it didn't mean that poetry has no value. It just meant he had no comprehension of what constitutes good poetry, and he never would, and his math, science, and logic couldn't do a thing to change that.

They are not the answer to everything in life. They are just the answer to some of the things in life, in the particular areas where they can effectively be applied. To think they ARE the answer to everything is to adhere to a form of fundamentalist dogmatism that is quite similar to the most dogmatic forms of religion, in that it thinks it already has all the answers to all the questions worth asking.

It doesn't. And it never will.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 11:48 AM

Ever explored all the possibilities love can bring??....Oh, it must not be....you can't see it








..unless you have eyes to see it.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:06 PM

I can't think of militant atheist on this forum who haven't is some way or another put forth BOTH of these ideas.

Science is only what can be observed.

I can proudly use Science as an ally to support my atheistic arguments.

Until they reconcile these things in their heads they will remain the intellectual equals of puppies chasing their tails.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:43 PM

Not sure how 'militant' an atheist I might qualify to be, Jack; but an avowed and convinced atheist is certainly what I am; and I have not, to the best of my recollection, mentioned the word 'science', or any synonym thereof, on this thread until now. I have no need of any sort of science to indicate to me what concepts I find unacceptable to what seems to me any world view of any conceivable rationality or intellectual respectability.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:46 PM

The thing is, Steve, you tend to trash others, and what you imagine their beliefs to be, rather than simply expressing your own. You tend to tilt at windmills, which, can either be amusing or annoying, depending on the weather...and so it goes...


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:51 PM

The words "dogma" , "dogmatic" "doctrine" and "doctrinaire" only ever seem to get used these days in their negative, pejorative senses - to denote hidebound, uncritical ways of thinking. But there is an element of dogma and doctrine in all systematic attempts to explain the world, whether the attempts are scientific or mystical: the passing-on of any firmly held opinion through teaching must necessarily involve dogma and doctrine to some extent. The early doctors of the church taught and passed on a body of knowledge to seminarians, doctors of science did, and still do, the same thing. The notion of the world being supported on the back of a giant turtle was dogma for people in some parts of the world, as was the Garden of Eden myth for Christians .Things have moved on, but I wouldn't deny that the idea of humans being descended from lower life forms isn't dogma for those who espouse the theory of evolution. It is for me, because without that central idea, the whole theory of evolution collapses.


The problem I have with new atheists is about the insulting language they use to religious people, not the fact that they hold strong opinions on the issue of evolution. I agreed with a lot of what the article said, but thought that it over-emphasized the similarities between the supposed "rigid mindsets" of protagonists on either side of this debate. By putting an equals sign between two sets of rigid "doctrinaires" it could leave readers with the impression that the evolution versus creationist controversy is really nothing more than two sets of blinkered antagonistic dogmatists slugging it out over which side of the same coin is more valid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:54 PM

MtheGM

I can't recall having seen you chase your own tail in these arguments. I can't recall you being militant or mean when you engage in them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 01:21 PM

Musket,

There is a difference between wanting others to show some maturity and not piss on my bonfire and having them actually show some maturity and stop doing so.


Musket said..

"Although look at those who complain when someone pisses on their bonfire."

Perhaps we ought to consider the credibility and motives of those who consider their own contributions to the discussion as "pissing on a bonfire."

Musket said...

"Sailor Jack wants to be left alone to discuss religion with his mates.

Fair play.

But publicly posting on the BS section of Mudcat precludes blinkered debate as the grown ups may want to join in.

As is their right.

I have a fascination with religion. I remain fascinated how intelligent people can see it as relevant.   I have every right to explore my fascination and others have the right to tell me to bugger off.

Snag is, I remsin curious because if your God is omnipotent rather than impotent, he / she should be able to brush off the carping and ridicule of immature idiots like me.

Do why be so touchy? Why keep looking for protection and finding ways of dreaming that lack of superstition is some sinister plot?

You started the bloody thread. Don't complain about where it is heading. . "


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 01:21 PM

The thing is, Steve, you tend to trash others, and what you imagine their beliefs to be, rather than simply expressing your own. You tend to tilt at windmills, which, can either be amusing or annoying, depending on the weather...and so it goes...

You post little one-point posts on the whole. A couple of times recently you've posted condescending stuff such as the above. The irony of your trying to trash me in this manner, whilst at the same time complaining about my alleged trashings, is completely lost on you, I suppose. My posts tend to be a bit more involved than yours, picking up on what someone has said and dissecting it carefully. If you think that amounts to trashing I might have to disagree. In the cases where, weak sod that I am, I respond to silly posts with sarcasm, it still isn't trashing. The poster of the silly post has already trashed himself before I even get there. Now why don't you just address things point by point as they come up?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 01:56 PM

Science is only what can be observed.

That is the first time I've seen that wacky notion expressed here. Science cheerfully and openly expresses its shortcomings and gaps in knowledge. Science acknowledges that certain phenomena have yet to be properly observed because we have yet to develop the means to properly observe them. Science accepts that theories have to be under constant review as new knowledge comes to light. Good science knows no dogma. Dogma is the enemy of good science. Wow, Jack. Doesn't all that make your little sentence above look so dismal. It's a good job you don't actually think it. And neither does anyone else.

I can proudly use Science as an ally to support my atheistic arguments.

You do not "use" science to support anything. Science is neutral. What you do is to subject assertions made to you to the rigour of science. Now whilst science acknowledges its own gaps (see above), it is still perfectly valid to check assertions made to you against the bar of evidence. It can be quite a high bar. Your assertion may not satisfy every demand of evidence but it may do so sufficiently to be allowed as a hypothesis or theory. Those two words simply express notions that are of interest to science because, at least in part, until further evidence comes to light, they can yield to exploration via the scientific method. All good stuff. But it is possible to make an assertion that can never yield to scientific enquiry. The existence of God is one such. He is defined in such a way as to be not only outside the laws of nature but also to be beyond investigation. Now this is quite a serious matter. It doesn't take the average scientist long to accept that there isn't much point pursuing the existence of God as a scientific project. Do you see? Science at this juncture has parted company with God. They don't even connect tangentially. They can't communicate. You can't use science either to prove or disprove God because the two simply don't see each other.

Now my problem as an atheist is, who actually defined God in that way? Was it people? Or did someone come down to primitive Man in a chariot of fire and permanently imbue him with the God notion? I'm a little suspicious that God was deliberately designed to be both above all natural laws and inaccessible. A God of that kind can never be challenged. His truth cannot be undermined. Those tenets are enshrined in the major religions. Further embellishments to the story turn God into someone who intervenes and who can be quite authoritarian. That is also rather useful to big religion. So my suspicions stack up. I turn back to the only rational means I know, the scientific method, to assess all the evidence. And find it wanting. Absent, in fact. That's what makes an atheist an atheist. Note that at no time do I say that God does not exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 02:01 PM

"You do not "use" science to support anything."

I don't know who the "you" is that Mr. Shaw is talking to. But Mr. Steve Shaw on this forum does it all the time. Keep and eye out for it folks. You will see it soon, even though after reading this he will try his best not to do it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 02:15 PM

""The words "dogma" , "dogmatic" "doctrine" and "doctrinaire" only ever seem to get used these days in their negative, pejorative senses - to denote hidebound, uncritical ways of thinking.""

Not just the word in many cases Mick, but also the systems they describe, and the people whose mindset they describe, are hidebound and uncritical.

Almost every scientist is busily trying to change previous theories by gaining new knowledge and producing new ways of looking at just about everything in his own area of expertise in the Universe.

Hardly hidebound or uncritical and definitely neither doctrinaire, nor a follower of dogma.

Can you say the same of those who rely on "You've got to have faith"?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 03:00 PM

"You do not "use" science to support anything."

I don't know who the "you" is that Mr. Shaw is talking to. But Mr. Steve Shaw on this forum does it all the time.


Silly Billy.

Everything (except God, of course) is of science. It's a nonsense to say that you support things with science. The things are science. It's like saying my bones support my skeleton. Notions and assertions can be tested against the scientific method to see whether they make the evidence bar. If they do, it doesn't mean they are supported by science. It means they are worthy of being called hypotheses, or theories, that's all. It means they are supported by some evidence. Note the implicit uncertainties. 'Tis those that make science such a joy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: bobad
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 03:01 PM

Just thought I'd throw this in here as a semi-relevant interest item:

'Atheist' shoe company claims U.S. Postal Service is discriminatory
By Stephen C. Webster
Wednesday, March 27, 2013 14:00 EDT

Using an incredibly clever infographic, a shoe company in Germany revealed this week that they conducted a study which found that boxes shipped to the U.S. with tape that reads "ATHEIST" were much more likely to be delayed or lost en route than packaging without the label.

The company, which is actually called Atheist Shoes, specializes in selling ostensibly handmade shoes that declare one's nonbelief in a deity.

"We have lots of customers in the USA, but sometimes the shoes we send them take longer than they should to arrive, or even go missing," a post on the Atheist Shoes website explains. "And when some of our customers asked us not to use ATHEIST-branded packaging tape on their shipments, we started to wonder if the delays were caused by the US Postal Service taking offence at our overt godlessness…"

They planned to test this theory with an ingenious bit of marketing zeal: they would mail two packages to 89 different people in 49 states, one with the ATHEIST tape and one without, and see how many arrive and how long it takes.

The results: Packages with ATHEIST tape took three days longer to arrive on average, and were 10 times more likely to never make it to their destination. The company added that they conducted similar tests in Germany and across Europe that exhibited no such bias.

"Interestingly, this seems to be a national problem — traditionally less religious and more liberal states also saw high levels of delay and disappearance," they wrote. "Sadly, many of our customers who took part in this experiment were not surprised by our findings, even thought tampering with post is a Federal Offence."


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 03:13 PM

Hello Sailor!

Thanks for repeating my post. Perhaps if you type it out next time rather than cut and paste, it might just? ... Naw.

Militant? What do you mean by that? You're the one with the position to defend. I merely have to ask you for proof of your belief and that settles that. Militant? No. Just rational.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 04:04 PM

"I merely have to ask you for proof of your belief and that settles that."

Yet you have yet to do so. Because you would rather mock and snipe? Very irrational.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 04:33 PM

I do tend to post little, one-point posts, Steve. I find that it's better than posting big, pointless ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 05:06 PM

There is a misinterpretation of militant atheism which I don't think is real. Any refutation of religion is going to be interpreted by believers as militant as it offends what they think people should believe.

Dawkins has been accused of being "militant" when I think he is just reasonable.

Atheism can never be a religion because there is no unilateral thought that guides it.
Every atheist is slightly different in their objection to religion.

Every atheist I know, and I have known quite a lot, is not militant but searching and seeking a rational way to view the world. They are open to science which is always evolving and changing and never as dogmatic as any religious tenet.

This "militant atheism as a religion" is a propaganda device delivered by those who object to anyone who objects to their religious beliefs as being "universal".

You can't use science to support something that isn't real but is only in the minds of believers.

The logical fallacy remains, you can't support a negative in a discussion. The existence of a god is a negative. You can't prove it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 05:19 PM

Stringsinger


It is apparent that you have not read the article, or the thread. You read two words, attached your own assumed meaning to them and dismissed them with self-referential logic. Thank you for your opinion, such as it is.

BTW here is a commonly accepted definition of "religion."

Please can you please provide a definition that requires the use of "unilateral thought to guide it" whatever that may be?

re·li·gion
/riˈlijən/
Noun

    The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.
    Details of belief as taught or discussed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 06:59 PM

Don
My problem with some of the old atheists on this thread is their insistence on some sort of an ideal scientific mindset . Many of the qualities describing the supposed "dogmatic mindset" here are actually essential to the working scientist -rigidity certainly is. Sometimes a scientist has to be stubborn in the face of new ideas- remember there was that UK scientist last year who swore to eat his underpants if a CERN experiment disproved Einstein. Even faith to some degree : in the course of their work scientists have to be confident that they're not completely off the mark in their experiments ,after all .

The real problems for science aren't mediaeval mindsets, but present-day lack of resources. Science isn't geared towards looking to the Universe . Almost all scientists are busily engaged in trying to secure work in industries that have little or no interest in new ways of looking at anything other than ways of staying afloat. When industry has no need for scientists , state funding for the teaching of science in schools dries up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:26 PM

I post this because it refers to a survey that I see related to the topic. (Hopefully, it contributes to the discussion, rather than takes away from it).

The only information I get from the site host is he seeks increased political influence for Athiests and Agnostics. This seems to put his affiliation in a political camp, rather than a religious one - does it not?

It seems puzzling to me is some Athiests/Agnostics (or at least the one hosting the site) see those who identify as having no particular religious affiliation as being "in the same camp". To me, this is a big "leap of faith",(excuse the pun;) and such a determination would require much more investigation - as I suspect it is more complex than that.

   


Pew report


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:28 PM

I do tend to post little, one-point posts, Steve. I find that it's better than posting big, pointless ones.

Ah yes, a typical Stim post! So witty, yet so bereft of content! Would you at least admit that, unlike you, I put a bit of effort into mine?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 09:11 PM

Better to be be witty and bereft of content than protractedly so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 09:35 PM

Stim, better to keep silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and prove it...

Do let us know when you have anything you'd like to discuss.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 11:22 PM

There's nothing religious about atheism, which is esentially the belief that a particular spiritual proposition has been found wanting for lack of evidence. Let's not go distorting definitions just for the sake of argument.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 03:25 AM

Please read the article Amos. I think you will find it interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 03:30 AM

"Ah yes, a typical Stim post! So witty, yet so bereft of content! Would you at least admit that, unlike you, I put a bit of effort into mine? "

I don't think that is evident at all.

"I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead."

So wrote Mark Twain.

You don't even try to keep your opinions consistent within threads. You constantly repeat yourself. What ever bubbles up in your snarky mind seems to find its way directly through your fingers to this forum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 06:34 AM

Hey! Yes you! As a Mudcat member, you too can have a hobby!

All it takes is these two simple steps;

1. Start a thread in full knowledge it will insult the intelligence of rational people.

2. Attack everybody who points this out.

You too can be the centre of attention at all the parties you throw at ___________ (insert address or ship name) and after all, this has at least one advantage over self abuse, it won't impede your passage to heaven! Win, Win!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:09 AM

One of Jack's main moans is that I'm inconsistent. But all he ever does is say I'm inconsistent. Whenever I ask him how I'm being inconsistent he never answers. It's literally what a parrot does: chunters out the same phrase again and again but can never expand on it. I suppose I could take the Jack/parrot analogy further but I'll leave it there for now...


There's nothing religious about atheism, which is esentially the belief that a particular spiritual proposition has been found wanting for lack of evidence. Let's not go distorting definitions just for the sake of argument.

Well I might substitute "conclusion" for "belief" but otherwise that'll do me, Amos.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 08:36 AM

No sooner said the Earth is round,
And formed from dark and void,
When up spake Harry in the back,
'You twit, it's ellipsoid!'


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:36 AM

I wonder if the thoughts of men
Who wax so scientific,
Are really just religious ploys
For causes beatific;
And whether gods are playing games
With darkness tenebrific,
And mortals locked in helices
Of soundings so specific.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 10:02 AM

It's not fair, really. We religious people have to work HARD for many years to form a good relationship with God. We have to engage in study, contemplation, self-examination ("the unexamined life is not worth living"), meditation, prayer, good works, self-discipline, the development of a degree of humility, recognition of the divine not only in oneself but in others too, acceptance of responsibility toward others as equals...it's a long and arduous course.

While all the atheist has to do to find God is...look in the mirror!

This is what my father did every day. He got up, looked out upon His worldly dominion with satisfaction, knowing He that was sovereign over all of it, went to the washroom, and looked at the face of God in the mirror while He shaved Himself. He then exercised His Godly and omnipotent powers over all the poor fools, dullards, and other lesser beings in His world for the rest of the day. Every day. He ruled!!!

It's so much simpler and less demanding than the religious life! And you get to be "Number One". And you're always right, and other people are always wrong. Bonus! No wonder it's become such a popular lifestyle choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 10:35 AM

You forget that most men are married, regardless of whether they have irrational fear and doubt.   If you don't have God to tell you how to live you still have a wife.

Joking apart, there are people out there who actually think that not being religious is vanity.   Honestly, hanging is too good for them...


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Amos
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 11:39 AM

Dogmatism is not equal to religiosity. Some dogma are religious and some religionists are dogmatic, but they are not identical sets. Religion is not the ONLY form of irrationality around, after all!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 11:43 AM

It's worse than vanity, mate! It's sheer appalling hubris and overweening egotism of the most extreme sort. ;-) It's thinking that YOU are the center and source of everything important, which is exactly what every ego loves to think about itself. It's thinking that you're the boss.

Great philosophers and great theologians are aware of this problem that arises with ego, but the average man is not, because he's been quite sure that he was the centre of everything important right from the moment he first drew breath as a wailing infant. This makes his life a survival/competition game...that is, "survival of the fittest" (or the most devious)(or the cleverest)(or the richest)...and from that is derived pretty much every ugly, sordid, and brutal aspect of human life. The ego's triumph is to assert that it is number 1 and it plays the game to WIN. Anyone who wants to be number 1 surely doesn't want a God in the picture, do they? That would imply that they're not number 1, and it would also make it incumbent upon them to treat others as they would wish to be treated themselves, given that others are just as valuable in the sight of God as they are.

You're right that most men have a wife. However, my father was never under the impression that his wife was in charge of how he was going to live. Hardly. ;-) The man was as self-governing as Genghis Khan. As for his wife, my mother, she was equally self-absorbed and determined to have things HER way, so they butted heads for an entire lifetime and both had it THEIR way...in most respects...although my father did so to a greater extent, being utterly oblivious to anyone else's "way". I have seldom seen a more flagrant case of 2 grimly determined egos in my life than those two. And never for a moment did religion play any part in their lives. They managed to make a Hell for themselves entirely without religion.

I was not well impressed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 01:05 PM

It's not fair, really. We religious people have to work HARD for many years to form a good relationship with God. We have to engage in study, contemplation, self-examination ("the unexamined life is not worth living"), meditation, prayer, good works, self-discipline, the development of a degree of humility, recognition of the divine not only in oneself but in others too, acceptance of responsibility toward others as equals...it's a long and arduous course.

While all the atheist has to do to find God is...look in the mirror!


Ah, this demonisation of atheists by Christians is a dirty business. Unfortunately for "you religious people", it isn't only "you religious people" who take that long and arduous course. Not only that, a goodly number of "you religious people" don't take it in any case. Now get yourself off to confession: the "degree of humility" bit of the course didn't work in your case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 01:41 PM

So, can atheists actually be good musicians??...after all, 'they ain;t got no soul'!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 01:49 PM

In the original post, our resident Jack tar stated that he has a thesis that the more 'atheist' you are is a reflection of how a religious past you had. Correct me if I read that wrong?

When he bandies the word around perhaps he gets confused between being anti religion ie nobody should have an imaginary friend and not being impressed when religion is allowed to influence laws affecting rational people who don't buy into such nonsense.

Examples here in The UK include Sunday opening, easter being moved around the calendar regardless of how illogical it makes the spacing of public holidays and not having to abide by laws set up to protect people on equal terms.

If people want to collectively hug each other in a drafty old church and sing chants that would make Charles Wesley cringe, no problem. If there are people saying that is wrong or that Muslims shouldn't have a quick time out for Friday prayers, then they should be repelled every bit as much as those who would wish law to reflect religious interpretation.

I just think some of the more sanctimonious Mudcat brethren can't tell the bloody difference. ..


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 01:55 PM

The straw man you chaps are battling here is one of your own creation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 02:22 PM

"Correct me if I read that wrong?"

Your read wrong. The statement was in quotes. Is is one of the theses of the article. It is defended in the article. I put it there so people might be curious and read the article.

I find the article interesting. I think it parallels a lot of the behaviors I see here. Politically, my beliefs, Joe Offer's beliefs, Little Hawk's beliefs are no threat to science or the beliefs of any other person. Why are we mocked? Why are we taunted? Why are childish tantrums thrown when we express them.

Why do apparently otherwise sane people give themselves license to throw any any semblance of self-restraint and civility.

Could this be why? From the article. ....

"All I get out of such exchanges is the confirmation that believers will say anything to defend their faith and that some atheists have turned evangelical. Nothing new about the first, but atheists' zeal keeps surprising me. Why "sleep furiously" unless there are inner demons to be kept at bay? In the same way that firefighters are sometimes stealth arsonists and homophobes closet homosexuals, do some atheists secretly long for the certitude of religion? Take Christopher Hitchens, the late British author of "God Is Not Great." Hitchens was outraged by the dogmatism of religion, yet he himself had moved from Marxism (he was a Trotskyist) to Greek Orthodox Christianity, then to American Neo-Conservatism, followed by an "antitheist" stance that blamed all of the world's troubles on religion. Hitchens thus swung from the left to the right, from anti–Vietnam War to cheerleader of the Iraq War, and from pro to contra God. He ended up favoring Dick Cheney over Mother Teresa."


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 02:35 PM

""It's so much simpler and less demanding than the religious life! And you get to be "Number One". And you're always right, and other people are always wrong. Bonus! No wonder it's become such a popular lifestyle choice.""

Perhaps, if you ha spent a little time under the control of the Jesuit brotherhood, you would recognise your father in them also.

That attitude and behaviour is by no means limited to those who are non religious, and neither is any human fault, foible, or vice you can recall.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 03:25 PM

"neither is any human fault, foible, or vice you can recall."

Why attack religious people for being like every other human unless you have a personal beef with religion?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 03:51 PM

I understand the word dogmatism.

But, what is the definition of godmatism?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 05:45 PM

"Militant atheism has become a religion"????

Hard to say...atheists seem so devoutly religious, spending massive amounts of time and energy deeply meditating on battling the center of nothing...then disappointed that they couldn't feel a victory!!!...THEN screaming at others that there is no nothing they could find in all of it!

That's why they make so much sense....eh??

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 05:45 PM

"Militant atheism has become a religion"????

Hard to say...atheists seem so devoutly religious, spending massive amounts of time and energy deeply meditating on battling the center of nothing...then disappointed that they couldn't feel a victory!!!...THEN screaming at others that there is no nothing they could find in all of it!

That's why they make so much sense....eh??

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 06:53 PM

Militant anything becomes religion. Religions do not require logic or reason save in the confines of their self-established parameters. Jesus said, Mohammed said, Moses said, Confucius said, etc. Who cares? You weren't there to hear it and so your assertions about what they said is based on what someone else says someone else says someone else heard. Recall when GWB said there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Instant religion. A new crusade. And over 100,000 souls sent to say hi to their respective makers. The banks are failing, our money is worthless, we need more more more. The almighty dollar became the new face of the world religion and money itself became the new prophet to worship. Fuckin' spare me. Join the Westboro Baptist Church. Brilliant PR and stupid eyes. I heard that Ann Coulter is their High Priestess and Dick Cheney their Pope.

Really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:46 PM

...and Barrack Obama is...what?? Their false prophet??...or Messiah??

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:53 PM

The thing is, GfS, you took that as though it was addressed to you. It wasn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 08:11 PM

Not too good that, o Guest. There's a complicated picture here all right. About half the world's people adhere to one or the other major religions. I happen to think that religious belief is deluded. I have no time for bogus disciplines such as theology (am I losing friends??). I think that organised religion is, first and foremost, a very earth-bound way of keeping people in check (and it works far better and for far longer than any political regime in history, no matter how authoritarian, you can name). But here's the thing. I really would like to change the world, but I will never do it. So I need a different gambit. It's best not to call masses of people deluded. They are, in most aspects of their lives, no such thing, and I'd better confront that. Better to assert that religious belief is deluded (a notion from which I cannot be swayed) but that people, on the whole, are just fine, because (uncomfortable though it may be for big religion) religious belief informs people's everyday lives in only the slightest, most tangential way, on the whole (I know there are exceptions, of course). Their path is not mine, but their end result may be just as "good" (go on, argue...) as mine. If I don't acknowledge that, I've lost the argument. Having conceded a fair bit there, I then turn sharply around and tell believers that they'd better shut up about their faith imbuing them with their moral framework. That is the most pathetic thing I've ever heard. Find one atheist with superb moral values and that bogus tenet is immediately shot to pieces. You do not need religion to be good. Some very bad people claim to be religious and some very good people have no interest in the Almighty. And vice versa, of course. Next, I find it very tiresome when I hear religious people rattling on about their "spirituality". If you boast about your spirituality, as one or two people here are wont to do, what you are actually saying is that you have assumed for yourself a mysterious dimension to your existence that raises you above the other poor souls around you. There is nothing more conceited than claiming that you are a "spiritual person". Get off your arse and tell us what you are actually on about! I love nature. I'm an expert on the wild flowers of the British countryside and I know loads about birds and butterflies as well. I've taught myself about geology and meteorology too, and I have a stunning collection of cloud photographs. I can go outside right now and show you where that new comet is supposed to be (bloody clouds...) I'm not swanning around like some around here telling people how spiritual I am. I'm out there loving all that I see around me and I can't get enough of it. That leaves me precious little time for contemplating my spiritual navel. I have a bit more time to waste posting to this forum at the moment because of my bad back, but once that gets fixed I won't have time for this! I love the music of Bach, Beethoven and Mozart, and my knowledge of the latter two would lose most people. I never miss a chance to visit local churches and cathedrals alike and I stood in front of a Titian Madonna for half an hour last year, transfixed. Spiritual was it? Of course not! Mysticism is in the eye of the conceited delusionals only. I have never had a vision, an out-of-body wotsit or a transcendental moment that I haven't managed to come back from (helped, perhaps, by the fact that I have never taken an illicit drug in my sheltered life). The Lord hath never appeareth unto me, nor hath he spake unto me in a dream. My back's wrecked, my tinnitus plagues me and I was born with bad bones. But I'm here and because I'm here I'm a winner. What I've got is great, and a damn sight better than what most people have got (though a bit more more Talisker would be useful), and I don't need no God to pester for even more!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 08:20 PM

It's taken a few years, Steve, but at last we agree on something. Bless you my son.

The fookin' Irish are as hard-headed as Newfies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 08:30 PM

Who are you, dad?

Flippin, 'eck, I didn't half go off on one there. Cor.

But does anyone see that as an atheist manifesto? I hope not! But it's my bloody atheist manifesto and I've just read it back to myself and I'm wondering where all that rabid militancy is supposed to be.

"You go your way, I'll go mine, judge me as to whether I'm being good and I promise not to call you deluded. I will not promise not to call your beliefs deluded, because you'd rather I told you the truth, eh? Now, let's talk about evidence..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:04 PM

'But does anyone see that as an atheist manifesto?'

Not I. It is but a chimera in a drop of water, relegated to our thoughts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:41 PM

As a btw, Shaw, you are brilliant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:54 PM

Flattered though I potentially am, I'd still like to have an inkling as to who you are. Any danger...?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 11:49 PM

Guest: "The thing is, GfS, you took that as though it was addressed to you. It wasn't."

Thing is, I don't know what you are talking about, nor how you arrived at that conclusion....???

Steve Shaw: "I love the music of Bach, Beethoven ...."

Hmmm....Do you really want to re-visit Beethoven's quotes again??....Aw, why not???.......Beethoven. (when asked how he could come up with the music that he did):""No friend have I. I must live by myself alone; but I know well that God is nearer to me than others in my art, so I will walk fearlessly with Him."

And: ""Music is the mediator between the spiritual and the sensual life."

And: "The vibrations on the air are the breath of God speaking to man's soul. Music is the language of God. We musicians are as close to God as man can be. We hear his voice, we read his lips, we give birth to the children of God, who sing his praise. That's what musicians are."


Maybe he wasn't really a musician....OR maybe he didn't know what he was talking about...OR he just said those things to piss you off...Ya' think???

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 11:58 PM

The thing is, GfS, you took that as though it was addressed to you. It wasn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 12:03 AM

Mudelfs, would you please either delete or identify the the cowardly GUEST, trying to slur my ethnic group.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 12:29 AM

It was a joke, Jack. Newfoundlanders are not an ethnic group. They mostly are displaced Irish people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 12:38 AM

Please delete or identify this coward.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 01:13 AM

Like the angel said, Steve, "you've led a wonderful life."


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 03:02 AM

Guess: "Like the angel said, Steve, "you've led a wonderful life."
..angel from where???

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 03:05 AM

Someone is getting touchy again. ..


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 09:26 AM

Guffers rears his clottish head again! Old chap, I know better than to get mired with you in discussions of anything remotely serious. On that score thou hast shat in your own bed one too many times. Suffice to say that I do not admire my heroes of art or science for what they did or said outside the spheres for which they are most noted. I'll even put up with a bit of murkiness (Furtwangler and Richard Strauss were fabulous, though both had questionable connections with the Nazis. They just about pass my test. Wagner was a horrible man, antisemitic and racist, and would have made a good Nazi. I won't have his music in my house. I have got a red line). Riposte all you like, Guffo. I won't be responding. I have no intention, you see, of sitting at this keyboard of mine having to question my own sanity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 03:36 PM

That's indicative of someone who has nothing to say worth anything....and who can't answer, if the bias isn't going his way...and his bias is away from reality.
...yeah, Beethoven didn't know what Beethoven was talking about, he should have checked first with Steve!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,GUE
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 03:44 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 06:36 PM

"cosy Christian line"


Didn't take long for our beloved Mudcat atheists to show their true colors. Always the soul of tolerance, never attacking someone else's beliefs,   open to new perspectives and not in the least dogmatic.

Right.

And I'm the president of the US or the king of England, take your choice.

Looks like the OP had it right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 08:08 PM

Yeah, damn those miserable athiests anyway! Who do they think they are, behaving just like fundagelical "Christians"[sic]!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 10:41 PM

Personally, I like where Beethoven was plugged into....and he even showed up with proof!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 02:35 AM

Ah, yes, dear old Ludwig v is the best example you people could possibly choose to make your case. He loved and served his god all his life; who showed his reciprocal love & appreciation by rewarding him with the worst affliction a man of his calling could possibly suffer and left him to get on with expressing his worship the best he could for the rest of his miserable life. Why, what a dear kind old deity you poor people do believe in and choose to lavish your love on, to be sure.

Is that 'militant' enough atheism for you, just for once and despite what I said about it above? If so, sorry Jack. But don't any of you dare to accuse me of having a 'religion'!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 03:27 AM

Ron Davies adds his name to the list of those who feel threatened by reality. Cosy little Christian indeed. ..

Atheism does not describe a wish to rid the world of religious superstition. Communism fits that bill perfectly, but then only as a perceived threat.

Today, Christians celebrate something that never happened. An executed criminal coming back to life. Wonderful metaphor and of use as a story with a moral, although the actual moral escapes me. As does messing the rest of us around with the date. It would make more sense to pick a date and stick to it if the rest of us have to plan industry downtime on it.

But that's the point really, isn't it? Christianity affects me through Sunday restrictions on commerce and insisting the holi in holiday means holy, yet the minute you question the relevance of it, which you have every right to, you are called s militant atheist.

The difference between religious equality and religious privilege is?

Right. That's it. Going to get my hammer and nails. ..


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 05:11 AM

"Atheism does not describe a wish to rid the world of religious superstition."
I'll drink to that.
Not sure what 'militant atheism' is - I've yet to see atheists terrorising pregnant women outside family planning clinics or, as is happening here in Ireland, pro-lifers (sic) mail-shotting the entire population prior to the Government, who has been forced into reviewing the law on abortion announcing its findings following the death of a woman who died in childbirth because, according to the doctors, "Ireland is a Catholic country".
I certainly am aware of 'articulate and vocal' atheists, but the "militants" of this world are those who forbid discussions on The Theory of Evolution, or the clergy who (way back admittedly, but still within living memory) physically broke up and tried to destroy traditional dancing, smashing musical instruments in the process, or the hospital staff who refuse to put "none" in the box marked "religion" on my entry form and instead put "not disclosed" or, when I lived in the UK, somewhat hilariously put "Church of England".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 06:37 AM

I'm not sure that Ludwig was quite the God-botherer you assume him to have been, Michael. He was no atheist by all accounts but he appeared to have a very personal and individualistic view of the power and glory. He often referred to the divine or the Godhead rather than God directly, and once he was quite rude to a fellow who suggested to him that a particular manuscript would soon be finished "with God's help". One of his last works, composed when he was totally deaf, has a movement headed Heiliger Dankgesang eines Genesenen an die Gottheit, in der lydischen Tonart ("A convalescent's hymn of thanksgiving to the Divinity, in the Lydian mode") - "the divinity" or "Godhead" if you like, but a bit arm's-length from "God". The movement itself, in the third manifestation of the "hymn", amasses incredible power that obliterates any hint of reverence or mysticism. I also think that, of all the greatest composers' efforts, Beethoven's music most represents triumph emerging from very earthbound, human struggle, and there isn't much intrinsic in it that is especially religious. Not to me anyway, but I'm biased!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 07:10 AM

Steve ~~ What about

"The Missa solemnis in D major, Op. 123 was composed by Ludwig van Beethoven from 1819 to 1823. It was first performed on 7 April 1824 in St. Petersburg, Russia, under the auspices of Beethoven's patron Prince Nikolai Galitzin; an incomplete performance was given in Vienna on 7 May 1824, when the Kyrie, Credo, and Agnus Dei were conducted by the composer.[1] It is generally considered to be one of the composer's supreme achievements. Together with Bach's Mass in B minor, it is the most significant mass setting of the common practice period" wiki

then?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 10:30 AM

Here's an article that sheds important light on this subject.


Has dogmatism become the new religion?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 11:28 AM

Well, Michael, Vaughan Williams wrote a lovely little Mass in G minor for unaccompanied singers, one of my favourites, yet he was an avowed atheist. "There is no reason why an atheist could not write a good Mass," he said. Yes, Beethoven penned that magnificent Mass, but then most composers of that time saw it as de rigeur to write at least one Mass. I think it's interesting that he made the final movement of the Choral Symphony, with the The Ode To Joy, into a far more secular than religious experience. True, it has one reverential and hymn-like passage, but it also includes a good dash of marching-band militarism, and its overall appeal is more to the brotherhood of man than to any deity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 11:54 AM

"Militant", I assume in this context, means aggressively argumentative and assertive about the falsity of theism. How can that possibly be construed as religious? This is a bewildering mishmash of semantic tapdancing.

Spiritual matters are not really suited for argument; surely the last thousand years or two have demonstrated that. They don't yield to "rightness versus wrongness", since they are not empirical phenomena, and their perceptions are not subject to objectification or physical proof, are only haphazardly repeatable, and are usually not subjected to enough analysis to identify underlying laws and principles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 12:22 PM

Point taken, Amos, but are these really spiritual matters?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 12:56 PM

Steve Shaw: "Point taken, Amos, but are these really spiritual matters?"

You have certainly pointed out Beethoven's afflictions...but those were 'external', by way of his hearing loss...but alas, the spirit WITHIN him, was certainly in touch with something that could not be seen, nor heard, but by his spirit..and translated into sound, music.
Perhaps, if some musicians today could tap into the same, God only knows what would be manifest!
By the way, it has often been said, that genius in music is where technology(tools of the day) meets the spirit within.
I'm quite sure that applies to other fields, as well.
Though Beethoven has passed, his music still lives on...touching the spirit in new listeners, though the centuries....ever wonder what that resonating node is??

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:00 PM

Nice take on Beethoven Goofus.

I thought you would have preferred Bach?

Woof!   Woof!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:20 PM

I'm impressed, Goofy! A cohesive, fairly well-reasoned post!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:44 PM

They mostly ALL are...but there is no friction without movement!

BTW, 200.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:46 PM

..or is it the other way around...without movement there is no friction...Oh well, either way...

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:47 PM

199, actually. THIS is 200.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:49 PM

Cross-posted. You win.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:50 PM

Well, I'd hate to break my record!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:51 PM

...or would that be 'TOUCHE'...again!?!?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 02:05 PM

Folks, if we're going to talk about composers who were not religious and put it in their works, look no further than Scott Joplin. In his 1915 opera, Treemonisha, he equates hoodoo and Christianity both as rank superstition holding black people back. In the clip below, we see Parson Alltalk sermonizing while the "conjurors" walk among the crowd throwing magic dust. Joplin told them through the main character that the true way to liberation was through education not religion.

In the clip, the people are told to be good not because a god cares or because the bible says so but merely because it is:

Good Advice


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 02:10 PM

Or Lennon's Imagine?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 03:17 PM

Futwick: "In the clip, the people are told to be good not because a god cares or because the bible says so but merely because it is", )Then you say).."Good Advice"..(and that links to the video.

Question: By what criteria do you judge what is 'Good'??

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 03:43 PM

Goofballupagus, just to mend a misconception that you seem to share with many people about the protocols of the sport of fencing:   It is NOT the fencer scoring the touch who calls "Touché!" It is considered discourteous and quite bad form to claim scoring a point.

Fencing is very much a game of honor and courtesy, to the point where many experienced fencers claim that they can get real clues as to a person's character, intelligence, and honesty by the way they conduct themselves in a fencing match. I've found this to be true.

It is for the fencer who has been score against to announce that he or she has been touched by calling "Touché!" which is "Touched" in French (much of the language associated with fencing is French, although many Italian terms are used also).

A fencer who claims touches and who doesn't acknowledge touches generally winds up standing a corner somewhere because no one wants to fence with him or her.

Just thought I would instruct you in a few of the courtesies of the sport.

Don Firth

P. S. Now back to our regular screaming match.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 03:58 PM

Care for some games of chess??

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 04:00 PM

"By what criteria do you judge what is 'Good'??"

By the way, a very good question. You're in good form today!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 04:36 PM

Well, with ALL due respects, when we began our 'exchanges', you may remember that I posted that my posts with you were actually an opportunity to have both sides of the 'debate'(taken to the limit)...in order to have people (readers) THINK, beyond the propaganda..if I recall, I said, "...that instead of people being TAUGHT WHAT to think, they should be taught HOW to think"..and that would be objectively, of course....and not just unthinkingly parroting frequently repeated 'talking points'....(come to think of it, we may have either met or exceeded the limits, but that's another story)...I also posted that, for the musicians who write lyrics, that I would be posting BUNCHES of phrases that should jog a few out of any 'writer's block'(though I didn't use the phrase 'writer's block'...and actually, I thanked you ahead of time on that one, for providing that opportunity!!!!
If you have been following the news about that subject, we covered most all of the legal arguments..WAY AHEAD OF THEM!!!
We kicked ASS!!!
(wink!)

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 04:40 PM

....oh, and I forgot..I also mentioned about using the 'angst of the political debate' to emit emotions, from the musicians who could tap into it, and use it for their playing...and making it tangible...I even pissed off Bobert, when I suggested using the death of his cat.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 06:06 PM

jack apparently you haven't read my post so I'll post it again.

Dogmatism analyzed

I wish you would read it because it makes a lot of sense and eschews and answers the rancor
that many have toward atheism.

I did read all of this thread and I'm not misinterpreting anything that was said.

I heard you say loud and clear that certain atheists are "jerks" which doesn't sound like you've read any of their works as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 08:32 PM

Stringsinger: "I heard you say loud and clear that certain atheists are "jerks" which doesn't sound like you've read any of their works as well."

Well, just for the record, there are some 'clerics' who are jerks, too!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 11:01 AM

I owe Jack an apology. It was comical of me to introduce the same article that he already posted. I'll try to do better in the future and read everything that people post. I admit to not reading the opening article.

Jack, however, the idea that there are people with which you don't agree are "jerks" is short-sighted particularly when it comes to Dawkins who criticizes religion as a delusion.
I think Dawkins is clinically correct although I acknowledge that there are some religious people who contribute positive actions in society but not too many comparatively.

Dawkins in his books and lectures really has an open minded investigatory nature and is not coming from a dogmatic position but one that has researched the subject carefully and is anything but a "jerk".

I have read Dennet, Dawkins, Hitchens and Sam Harris and I don't agree with everything they say, with maybe the exception of Dawkins since he is a scientist, they aren't "jerks" in the sense that they are bad people. Hitchens is the most abrasive and perhaps his alcohol was talking some of the time but if they are "Jerks" then Christianity and many of the world's religions are filled with "jerks" if we accept your standards here.

A critical reaction to religion doesn't constitute anyone to be a "jerk".


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Amos
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 11:13 AM

In celebration of the advent of spring this year, the new Pope has issued a decree requiring all bishops, priests, nuns and choirboys associated with the Catholic hierarchy to foreswear any jerkery for twenty-four hours. Esse Non Jercues, the Papal Bull issued Sunday, imposes the conduct of non-jerkiness on all male members of the Church. The Pope acknowledged in an off-record interview that it was risking considerable non-compliance, but he declared that only through experimentation can the Church progress into the future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 12:58 PM

Stringsinger, de Waal's article imho is no easier on Dr. Dawkins than I am. It implies that he is a hypocrite who does not see the "religion" in his own behavior.
My thesis about Dr. Dawkins being a jerk stems from his mocking of Religious people. The God Delusion is a deliberately offensive title.
If he can call me mentally ill without meeting me to sell a few extra books, I can call him a jerk.
It is easy to agree with Dawkins without being a jerk yourself. Avoid the name calling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:07 PM

Good one Amos.

In response to the Pope's announcement, the Association of TV and Radio Preachers of America have announced that they too will take a day off from being jerks. Their programming will be replaced by a fine selection of liturgical music.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:19 PM

Jack the Sailor: "It is easy to agree with Dawkins without being a jerk yourself. Avoid the name calling."

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Nice one, huh?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:24 PM

GfS, would you please explain what you mean.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:30 PM

Just re-read your sentence....I couldn't have said it any ironically!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:34 PM

I didn't mean it ironically. Though I guess it did come off as dry.

I just meant to say this I guess. It seems to me that Dr. Dawkins does make some good logical points in his book. But the marketing and promotion, especially the title, seem very jerk-like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:35 PM

I didn't mean it ironically. Though I guess it did come off as dry.

I just meant to say this I guess. It seems to me that Dr. Dawkins does make some good logical points in his book. But the marketing and promotion, especially the title, seem very jerk-like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:40 PM

Dry, but witty, just the same....oh no!.....you might fall into designated 'troll bin'.....but that's only by someone who just can't appreciate it....no sense of humor!

(I was going to sign off with 'Regards'...but that may take some more deliberations........)

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 06:14 PM

""For a long time it has been known that the first systems of representations with which men have pictured to themselves the world and themselves were of religious origin. There is no religion that is not a cosmology at the same time that it is a speculation upon divine things. If philosophy and the sciences were born of religion, it is because religion began by taking the place of the sciences and philosophy."" — Émile Durkheim, The Elementary Forms of the Religious Life (1912),


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 06:39 PM

Ed, I feel that is a muddled translation,

"it is because religion began by taking the place of the sciences and philosophy."

"it is because religion began by being the repository of the sciences and philosophy." Maybe...


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 06:41 PM

a persuasive case that Dawkins is a jerk.

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/30/dawkins_harris_hitchens_new_atheists_flirt_with_islamophobia/


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 08:07 PM

JTS, As I resist the temptation to translatate "the Bible, I also resist the temtation to translate, or speculate this quote from ther original French. (I prefer to leave it to the better qualified than I. So, I will go with the orginal,as posted, and I understand the meaning. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 10:13 PM

This bit from the Wikipedia entry on Durkheim's "The Elementary Forms of Religious Life" clarifies his perspective:

"Durkheim... argued that our primary categories for understanding the world have their origins in religion. It is religion, Durkheim writes, that gave rise to most if not all other social constructs, including the larger society.... In the end, even the most logical and rational pursuit of science can trace its origins to religion. Durkheim states that, "Religion gave birth to all that is essential in the society."

If anyone here cared to read even a page or so of his book, the discussion here would be much more interesting than it is. I'm not holding my breath, though, because most of you didn't even read the article in the OP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 11:16 PM

Thanks Stim.

I like that interpretation a lot.

Sorry that I offended you Ed. I simply did not think that he meant to say that religion took the place of two things that didn't exist before religion it took their place. Your translation make him look like he did not understand English grammar.   Thought it would be easier and clearer to say what was implied by the quote than to say what I just did. I was right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 03:51 AM

So.. if a book says something you disagree with, the author is a jerk? By your standards then The US Library of Congress and British Library combined would be called the wall of jerk because I doubt logic and reason could ever stray into your personal radar field.

It is called The God Delusion on account of the content and conclusion. I doubt he put any thought into whether he could provoke a confused idiot as a bonus. You aren't that important you know.

Once you work out that your insults of others are no better than the ones you receive in return, you might stop trawling puerile articles to further your own delusion.

You realise you are making even Goofus appear rational. ..


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 10:59 AM

Musket: "You realise you are making even Goofus appear rational. .."

Mudcatters rejoice!!..Musket is coming to...out of his coma!!!....Ok, how many fingers am I holding up???

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 11:24 AM

""a persuasive case that Dawkins is a jerk.

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/30/dawkins_harris_hitchens_new_atheists_flirt_with_islamophobia/
""

I read every word of that article and it totally fails to make its case and the author comes across as barely rational when he describes New Atheists (whatever the hell those might be) as Islamophobes because they don't believe in Allah.

So Atheists, who don't believe in God, don't believe in Allah either?

Well.....DUH! What a f**king surprise!

Disbelief in something does not equate to hatred, JtS.

I don't believe in fairies, but I don't hate them. For me to hate them, they would have to exist!!

That's the whole bloody point.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 11:44 AM

There is a concerted effort on the part of Christian or other religious people to demonize atheists. (Duh!) Articles like the puerile one above reinforce that behavior.

I don't know any atheist that would desecrate a Mosque or call Islamic people "towel heads" but I certainly know a lot of Christians who would do just that. I try not to know them but
they keep turning up much to my disgust. Atheists such as Dawkins et. al. don't go around burning bibles or korans. They investigate and listen to people who spout their religion and wear it on their sleeves.

Islamophobia is another buzz word used like "terrorist" or "socialist" or "liberal" to demean those who disagree with a certain point of view.

Whatever you think "militant atheism" is, Jack, the three men who have been criticized are not totally in agreement with each other but they defend the right for each other's views to be heard. You may not like those views but to dismiss them as "jerks" only brings back the old adage, when you point a finger at someone else, three fingers point back at you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 12:17 PM

Stringsinger: "Islamophobia is another buzz word used like "terrorist" or "socialist" or "liberal" to demean those who disagree with a certain point of view."

Oh!!..I got it!!..You mean like 'bigot', 'racist', 'homophobic', 'hate monger', 'Tea Party radicals', 'Right wing Christian'....

Problem is, this country is being torn apart with this nonsensical rhetoric..and this is by design. Remember, "United we stand, divided we fall"???...so the question you need to be asking yourselves is WHO has the most to 'gain' by dividing us...musicians????..nope....minorities??..nope....spiritually minded people??....nope....how about the back of the curtain controllers??...hmmm...getting warmer....the bankster funded governmental arm of corporations????....getting hotter!.....
Then the question goes to 'WHY???'.....is the majority of people IN the corporate/bankster/governmental arm...nope....so it's a minority of wealthy people who control the dialogue....hmmm...getting REAL hot....
do you think that it takes TWO to make the argument???....mm hmmm....like the TWO parties who ARE the governmental arm of the corporate/banksters????...well, who else???.....and all this dialogue is scripted through 'talking points'.....bingo!!!!
All those who have been suckered into this crap, raise your hands!
Suckers!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 01:28 PM

How many fingers is Goofus holding up? The fact that he can at all is progress I suppose.

Many people say they are tired of all the mud slinging on these atheism knocking threads. Im not.   They help me realise what a concerted effort is going into forthright assertive attacks by some people who claim to be Christians.

Who told you to use Mudcat in order to push your fantasy on others Jack? Why have you stopped trying to argue your point for that matter? is it because you realise what an absurd showing you have made? Your credibility has got about as low as possible. Yo know? That's sad.

Starry Pete was celebrating earlier because they baptised an atheist in his church the other day. You realise of course that most baptisms are of atheists. Children have not made any commitment and even if they did it is null and void. The last christening I went to there were three Christians in the church. The vicar organist and nice old lady handing out service order sheets. Most of us get christened through tradition which is fine but the numbers allow the church leaders to tell politicians they have many members.

Did you know that till very recently in England you were counted as Christian unless you stated otherwise?

Then an ex Archbishop of Canterbury the other day moaned that government must listen to him and his mates. Fook 'em.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 01:40 PM

You known a few Stalinists in your day, haven't you Frank?

Stalin was an avowed atheist, and he desecrated more than 20,000 mosques. He also orchestrated the deportation of tens of thousands of Muslims, particularly from the Caucasus...needless to say, untold thousands of them died. But you know that...


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 02:25 PM

..continuing from Stim....Not to mention many Christians and Jews or any religious factions who he felt was a threat to his tyrannical power.
Could it possibly be that history teaches us that man never learns from history??....Hasn't anyone noticed that with all the stepped up rhetoric and talking points gone berserk, that we have been conned into carrying on about 'religion' much the same way Stalin, Marx, Mao, and Pol Pot, and Hitler did....but now, they've got us doing it on the local level...when do you get the clue??..when you find yourselves turning in local prayer groups to Homeland Security??????
Hop aboard the clue train..and snap now and avoid the rush!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 02:53 PM

"Did you know that till very recently in England you were counted as Christian unless you stated otherwise?"
In England not too long ago, if you gave your religion in hospital "none" it was invariably entered as "Church of England" - presumably the lady behind the desk didn't count C of E a 'real' religion.
"Stalin was an avowed atheist"
Maybe arising out of his experiences in the seminary while training to be a priest!
Stalin had as much to do with "Marxism" as Hitler, Pinochet, Batista, Mussolini - or even Pope Pius XII... and all the other monsters had to do with capitalism or Christianity.
The Jesuit boast - 'Give me the child for his first seven years, and I'll give you the man'
Such stuff was The Manchurian Candidate made of.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 03:02 PM

I forgive you Musket.

For your own mental health and blood pressure, may I point out that you are in no way obligated to read anything that I post. Relax, breathe deeply.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 03:22 PM

Jim Carroll: "The Jesuit boast - 'Give me the child for his first seven years, and I'll give you the man'
Such stuff was The Manchurian Candidate made of."

So, I guess not all that preach the Bible know much about the spirit of it..history sure shows us that!...so lets check out where they fall down....

True..but you failed to quote Jesus who said:
"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect"


Yeah yeah,....I know it's already been pointed out to me that I do expose hypocrisy!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 03:48 PM

GfS, Jim,

I think it is fair to say that that particular Jesuit boast strayed from the path that Jesus set.

Historically Some Jesuit priests were bullies and sadists maybe some still are. They did considerable damage to many natives in Canada if I recall my middle school history correctly. I pray for the sake of this world that the present Pope, himself a Jesuit, (or at least a former one) takes the words GfS posted very very literally.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 03:58 PM

JTS, No offense taken. My intended response was that I am wary about changing a translation, muddled or not.

I understood the quote to mean religion was "science and philospohy" before they came onto their own. And, the Christian religion had an extreme influence on both at that point in time, on scientific thinking in the early and "transition years" (as I suspect earlier religions did also in earlier years).

Here are two related quotes, from early Christian science minds:

""By denying scientific principles, one may maintain any paradox.""
Galileo Galilei

""Behind The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false."" Thomas Aquinas


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 04:09 PM

I like this one Ed.

>>>""Behind The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false."" Thomas Aquinas <<<

Is it likely that the typical Kansas school board member would understand it and take it to heart? ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 04:50 PM

"You known a few Stalinists in your day, haven't you Frank?"

Actually I have. Stalin was a monster of course and did everything you said just like
the historical Christians did during the Crusades and at other times.

"Stringsinger, de Waal's article imho is no easier on Dr. Dawkins than I am. It implies that he is a hypocrite who does not see the "religion" in his own behavior."

Jack, I read it differently and I never heard de Waal call Dawkins a hypocrite. I have heard de Waal speak live.



"My thesis about Dr. Dawkins being a jerk stems from his mocking of Religious people. The God Delusion is a deliberately offensive title. "

Actually, the title has nothing to do with you. It has to do with religious belief in general.
If you really are sincere about what you believe then you shouldn't have to worry about what somewhat else thinks and react so defensively.

"If he can call me mentally ill without meeting me to sell a few extra books, I can call him a jerk."

You certainly can call anyone a "jerk" if you want to, but does that establish your defense
or enlighten the conversation in any way?

Dawkins doesn't need to sell a few extra books. His books, highly popular among intelligent people, have been selling for years. He is an established scientist.

You would do well to actually read one of his books. Maybe you would understand him better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:53 AM

Why, thank you, Jack!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 04:14 AM

Hello Sailor:
"I think it is fair to say that that particular Jesuit boast strayed from the path that Jesus set." (I'm sure you meant to write 'beast').
Isn't this what all these arguments should be about?
As an atheist (nothing more) I really don't give a toss what people believe - anybody is entitled to their own beliefs. It only becomes my problem when others attempt to force their beliefs and values onto me - it is you people who make war on the beliefs and actions of others.
Let's face it - if your Jesus (assuming he existed) returned to earth he would have stood trial in front of the HUAC and had he gained any sort of real influence he would have ended up with a CIA or MI5 bullet in the back of his head (or, at best, wearing an orange jump-suit in a concentration camp on the Cuban coast).
Christianity, or any religion is, or should be a guide to living, a philosophy; Marxism on the other hand is a socio/economic theory, an attempt to understand the world and change it, hopefully for the better.
Any failings in either of these are down to the people in the driving seat, neither is in a position to claim superiority in practical terms.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 06:44 AM

I forgive you Jim.

I forgive you Frank.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 08:02 AM

"I forgive you Jim."
A convenient - is somewhat arrogant back-door for you and your buddies away from dealing with the real issues which you have studiously avoided.
You may have meant it as a joke, but it's an attitude I've encountered throughout my life.
I know very few atheists who seek to impose their views on believers, but we now live in a world that has become extremely dangerous because of religious intolerance, by differing religious groups.
Some time this year, following the tragic death of a young woman who died through a hospital refusing to end an unviable pregnancy because "this is a Catholic country", Ireland will (hopefully) hold a referendum into whether these and other such circumstances should allow terminations. It is just possible that, should a reasonable and humane decision be arrived at and should the church (not to mention the howling and menacing mob of 'pro-lifers' (sic)) be resisted, Ireland will, with one mighty bound, take a flying leap into somewhere in the middle of the 20th century.
The tragic irony of all this is that any such changes will only have been made possible by the revelations of decades, possibly centuries of clerical sexual abuse of children by supposedly celibate old men who have taken it upon themselves to tell us how to live our lives.
Militant atheism my arseum.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: BrendanB
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 11:12 AM

I am in the somewhat peculiar position of being a practising Catholic while recognising that, in an entirely material world, my faith is irrational. I am aware that there are those, atheists and theists, who despise people like me for electing to believe without requiring evidence - but I can live with that.
I, in my turn, despise the mindset of atheists and theists who seek to tell others what to believe.
I utterly reject the idea that religion or atheism should have a voice in government. If religious believers want to change the world, do it by example. The same goes for atheists. My faith is no-one's business but mine, your atheism is no-one's business but yours.   
Some of the postings in this and associated threads do seem to be unnecessarily defensive or aggressive and, as a consequence, have undermined rather than enhanced the discussion. None of us knows if we are right, we live in hope. Steve Shaw once instructed me to 'get up of my knees'. (no, I can't remember the thread and can't be arsed to look for it.). Starry Pete ( or should that be starry pete?) took me to task for not accepting every word of the Old Testament as the literal truth. Such responses simply convince me that they both have issues of their own to resolve. On the other hand, if I am irritating those two I must be doing something right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 11:46 AM

Brendan, I absolutely support your idea of Separation of Church and State. One's personal conviction should have no role in deciding public policy.

If you are irritating, however, then the point of discussion is lost.

A belief system can't be rational because it contains no proof empirically.

I don't despise you for having a belief system. I had one once myself. I was not traumatized by it in any way. In my own case, I outgrew it.

There is no militant atheism any more than there is militant Catholicism, Christianity, Judaism, etc. (of which many will argue that these militant views exist).

Atheists today are no different from what they've always been, non-believers. They have been suppressed by religious people and are now speaking out. The dialogue will continue as more people leave their respective "faiths".

I'm not in favor of attacking anyone's religious beliefs unless they prove to be a menace to society imposing their will through violence and intimidation.

I think these threads are useful in that they explore alternative ideas to the prevailing
"monolithic" views of the majority of the public.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 02:06 PM

""I am aware that there are those, atheists and theists, who despise people like me for electing to believe without requiring evidence""

Where did that come from Brendan, you doughnut.

Theists too believe without evidence, just not in men with black frocks, dog collars, or turbans.

But we certainly don't want, expect, or ask anyone to join our ranks. We're far too busy fending off Evangelists, Jehovah Witnesses, Children of Mary and the Salvation Army, all busy trying to convert us.

Ninety percent of the atheists I know are similarly indifferent to your choices.

Get this firmly fixed in your skull! You only impinge on our consciousness when you try to push your ideas on us.

Leave us alone and we won't even know you exist.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 02:20 PM

Everyone has their own personal religion. Just watch them. You can eventually determine the nature of their religion by the following:

1. What do they habitually attack?

2. What do they habitually defend?

3. And how do they behave toward other people?

Their religion always has a God too....but quite often that God is nothing other than themselves. Their God of Self speaks every time they open their mouths, and they see Him/Her whenever they look in the mirror. Their loyalty to this one God of Self is absolute (although they can get angry or depressed when He or She messes up)! They will have NO other Gods before Him or Her! Specially not the Gods of organized religions. Almost everything in commercial society encourages the development of this One Personal God...and all the fear that goes with it...because that helps sell product! $$$$

Be nice to your Personal God today. Go buy some more stuff at the mall and "pamper" yourself. You deserve it, because you are Number One.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 02:51 PM

As for church and state, I could not agree more!

God has no place in politics, even though (maybe even because) he is incorruptible.

And please don't be offended by that "Doughnut". It was most fondly used.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 02:54 PM

Lighten up LH! Not every poster takes himself that seriously.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 03:34 PM

That was odd, LH.
You may be paying too much attention to verses from the "Chongo Chronicles."


:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 03:54 PM

I, in my turn, despise the mindset of atheists and theists who seek to tell others what to believe.

Several things. Atheists do not tell people "what to believe". Believing is a trait that is not within the pantheon of atheism (we do continually try to tell you this, you know). As for seeking to tell people, well now there's a pot calling a kettle black if ever I heard one. 'Tis organised religion that is the expert in telling people what to believe. So much so that organised religion does not believe in education. That would be far too dangerous. Questioning and critical appraisal of evidence, the mainstays of real education, is to be severely discouraged. Organised religion starts telling you, right from the cradle, right through your developing years (when you can't be expected to understand), what you must believe, under pain of excommunication/ostracism/fatwa/honour killing/hellfire. All atheists do, apart from quietly getting on with their lives, is to declare that they require evidence for anything they are told by authority. And that, as far as the alleged existence of God is concerned, that evidence is severely wanting. End of!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 04:09 PM

>>>"I forgive you Jim."
A convenient - is somewhat arrogant back-door for you and your buddies away from dealing with the real issues which you have studiously avoided.
You may have meant it as a joke, but it's an attitude I've encountered throughout my life.<<<

It was my impression that you had talked condescendingly to me and attacked my beliefs. I am sorry if I was mistaken about that. Jesus told us to ask the Lord to forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. (I am paraphrasing). I don't want to bicker with you. I forgave you for my benefit. To let go my anger and defuse the situation from my side. I am sorry if it offend you. Hopefully it did not give offense as responding in kind would have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 04:19 PM

Don(Wyziwyg)T
"Where did that come from Brendan, you doughnut."

Don,

You have just criticized a calm, reasoned intelligent post by Brendan by nitpicking over a definition and called him a name.

The semantic nitpicking is an old Mudcat tradition. I've done it myself many times. Does it serve the conversation?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 05:35 PM

. So much so that organised religion does not believe in education.

Yet in UK, Christian faith schools are massively over-subscribed and people lie about their beliefs (or lack of) to get their kids the benefit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 06:21 PM

"Several things. Atheists do not tell people "what to believe". Believing is a trait that is not within the pantheon of atheism (we do continually try to tell you this, you know). As for seeking to tell people, well now there's a pot calling a kettle black if ever I heard one. 'Tis organised religion that is the expert in telling people what to believe. So much so that organised religion does not believe in education."

Don T, I think I may have found the source of your accusation that I was dissing all atheists.

Brendan spoke for himself and about his own experiences with "atheists and "theists" he has encountered. Mr. Shaw attacks him and all of religion for attacking all of atheism. I think that Brendan will be wise enough not to rise to the bait where I was not. It looked like I was attacking all atheists when I was merely trying to counter a baseless argument.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 07:15 PM

So much so that organised religion does not believe in education.

Yet in UK, Christian faith schools are massively over-subscribed


Thanks for making my point. The people who are so desperate to get their kids into "faith schools" are exactly the people who were indoctrinated that way themselves. Those, and, of course, the people who see faith schools as somehow giving their kids a social advantage. It is, of course, well known that the latter faction can easily buy faith schools off. And don't even think of contradicting me. I worked in faith schools in the East End for years and I saw all the tricks and all the quiet acquiescence. And I was a Catholic at the time!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 07:25 PM

Well, Jacko, we can either respond sensibly to posts or we can shut up. In no way was my post an attack on the poster. The fellow made a ludicrous assertion by any measure and I put him right. That is not an attack. That is what discussion forums are supposed to be about. Now I've noticed of late this new tendency of yours to leap to the defence of people who (a) haven't even had a chance to defend themselves yet, or (b) might not want your help. I could conclude that there's a little touch of paranoia there. Hold back and let people respond. Or don't listen unto me and continue your unstoppable crusade to make a complete arse of yourself. You have a choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 07:29 PM

When WWI ended, a multiplicity of other nations wrote a new Constitution for Germany, commonly called the "Weimar Constitution."

For some time, Germany followed the Weimar Constitution, which was considered "a very good Constitution."

It was, in fact, so good that most constitutional scholars considered it almost identical in effect, to the US Constitution.

It differed in only ONE condition considered "significant" (largely in retrospect) in that it did not prohibit a "State Religion."

The first international treaty made by the new Government ca. 1938 was a treaty with Rome, and declaration of ROMAN CATHOLICISM as the official state religion.

Despite the good intentions of some persons of good intent, religious or others, some rather unfortunate results followed soon after, since no religion imposed by government can avoid the appearance of "permission to hate" anyone who deviates from the official line.

Several other actions by the new government followed, that are generally considered to have contributed to the "German difficulties" although some disagree that they were all bad ideas. The Bush II administration appears to have attempted to followed several of the German concepts in nearly their same form (and in almost identical order) like rigging the highest courts, propagandising hatred of "undesirablees," promotion of religiosities, and the like; but here the results thus far came out a little better than for the Germans.

Since most religions, along with the non-religious, here recognize that a government dictated belief system is undesirable, atheists have no reason to be excluded from resisting imposition of religious law just as must be done by the majority of religious believers when fanatic radicals attempt to impose their own religion on everyone else, and there is no reason to call atheists "militant" if they object along with those persons of faith with whom they're willing to take a stand.

BUT:

First Amendment doesn't apply here: N.C. lawmakers push bill for state religion

There's always another nutcase who can get a few votes by pandering to the fanatics who ARE MILITANT.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 02:03 AM

John in Kansas: "It differed in only ONE condition considered "significant" (largely in retrospect) in that it did not prohibit a "State Religion."
The first international treaty made by the new Government ca. 1938 was a treaty with Rome, and declaration of ROMAN CATHOLICISM as the official state religion."

Take a bow, John, you hit a BIG bingo!!

Three major German Reichs (empires) that have existed. These were, respectively:

1. The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, which lasted from the coronation of Otto I as a Holy Roman Emperor in 962 to 1806, when it was dissolved during the Napoleonic Wars;

2. The German Empire, which lasted from the unification of Germany in 1871 to its collapse after World War I, during the German Revolution of 1918–1919;

3. The National Socialist state commonly known as the Third Reich or Nazi Germany, which lasted from the Machtergreifung in 1933 to the End of World War II in Europe in 1945.


The "Holy Roman Empire" came about by the Roman Empire co-opting Christianity, which had made serious inroads, and threatened the Roman Empire, which was wrought with wars, hedonism, a poly theistic religion, decadence etc etc. In the co-opting of Christianity, who, at first they persecuted fiercely, the merged the two together, while retaining the trappings of their earlier 'pagan' religion.
Hence, they created a Theocracy...where the Pope replaced Caesar as the sitting head.
By the way, as this pushed eastward the 'king' of Russia was referred to as 'Czar'....an adaptation of 'Caesar'.

For what it's worth.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:06 AM

brendan- please be assured that i was not,and am not now irritated by your pick and choose beliefs.i trust that my believing the bible does not irritate you either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stu
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 10:02 AM

"Yet in UK, Christian faith schools are massively over-subscribed and people lie about their beliefs (or lack of) to get their kids the benefit."

That's not because there's some drift towards religion by the child-bearing populace, but because faith schools are considered superior to state schools. They may be so, but that's got sod all to do with divine influence and more to do with the fact faith schools discriminate against poorer or less able pupils (see data here).

Faith schools are divisive and retrogressive; they don't encourage integration, tolerance or allow their pupils to mix with people whose views might not be their own. This is not good for the pupils or greater society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 10:13 AM

Steve.
The people who are so desperate to get their kids into "faith schools" are exactly the people who were indoctrinated that way themselves. Those, and, of course, the people who see faith schools as somehow giving their kids a social advantage.

Like Musket's friend. (11th April 2012)

Either the word faith is an active word or religious belief has bugger all to do with it. A friend of mine who isn't superstitious had to pretend to be a believer in Christian superstition in order to get his kids into the local performing school. No matter I suppose, and I would do the same. Yeah yeah, course I'm a God botherer and I believe in all that stuff. Now educate my children please.

I'd lie, same as he did. It doesn't matter because there is no hell they can send you to, and lying to delusion pedlars isn't a crime, it's playing their absurd game with them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 10:15 AM

Sorry, that should have been in quotes.
It was what Musket posted about his friend and himself.

"Either the word faith is an active word or religious belief has bugger all to do with it. A friend of mine who isn't superstitious had to pretend to be a believer in Christian superstition in order to get his kids into the local performing school. No matter I suppose, and I would do the same. Yeah yeah, course I'm a God botherer and I believe in all that stuff. Now educate my children please.

I'd lie, same as he did. It doesn't matter because there is no hell they can send you to, and lying to delusion pedlars isn't a crime, it's playing their absurd game with them. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 11:53 AM

We have to ask the question, why has militant Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or any other
militant religion become a religion and then maybe some answers that are valuable might emerge.

I have the right to criticize atheism or any other kind of "ism" if it becomes dogmatic and intrudes upon my right not to believe it.

I am beginning to think that these discussions are proving fruitless because of all the name calling and vituperation they cause. Still, it's a worthy subject and new insights into it
might ameliorate the emotional outbursts here.

I disagree with the notion of Militant or New Atheists since I think this is a canard.
Atheists haven't changed at all except now they (whoever and however different they are) are more vocal.

Of course religionists have done their share of vocalizing and proselytising disproportionately to non-believers. When they claim victimhood, while being the loudest in the majority, it's a great big joke.

I think we need a new set of bumper stickers. "Believe what you want but don't spill it on me", or "You have the inalienable right to be stupid" or "I have faith that faith doesn't exist" or "Jesus who?" or "Islamophobia, homophobia or atheophopia? What's the difference?"

I am tending more toward Frans de Waal's "Apathysist" to climb from under all the brickbats being thrown.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 12:07 PM

Keith. Have I ever spouted a view on trombones?

Just wondered.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Lighter
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 12:52 PM

Long ago I posted my favorite bumper sticker, from around 2007:

"Don't Believe Everything You Think."


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 02:09 PM

One problem with lying to get your kid into a faith school is that you are severely disadvantaging your kid by sending them to a school which will teach them myth as truth and which will make them bow their heads to a deity they must not question. So a very large chunk of their time will be spent in enduring anti-educational "lessons", chanting "prayers" and going to services. If it's a Catholic school they will spend every lesson under the sightless gaze of a sparsely-dressed brutalised dead man hanging on a cross on the wall in front of them. Another problem is that you will depriving a perfectly good state school and its pupils of your child's talents. When enough people do that, and they do, the system is thrown into imbalance. I'm scratching my head here wondering whether anyone who approves of this kind of discrimination can really be called "Christian".


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 02:39 PM

The "Holy Roman Empire" came about by the Roman Empire co-opting Christianity, which had made serious inroads, and threatened the Roman Empire, which was wrought with wars, hedonism, a poly theistic religion, decadence etc etc. In the co-opting of Christianity, who, at first they persecuted fiercely, the merged the two together, while retaining the trappings of their earlier 'pagan' religion.
Hence, they created a Theocracy...where the Pope replaced Caesar as the sitting head.


You appear to be confused between the adoption of Christianity by Constantine, and its establishment as state religion by later emperors (around 360-450CE) and the (originally Frankish, later mostly Germanic) Holy Roman Empire started nominally by Charlemagne about 400 years later. Of which it has been said, was neither holy nor Roman, and scarcely an empire. The Pope was never head, even in title, of either the Roman Empire or the Holy Roman Empire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 03:07 PM

Dan (olddude) says that you are a good guy so I am going to try to get to know you. I am not going to ignore you as if you were like some of the others.

Lets start with this.

>>I have the right to criticize atheism or any other kind of "ism" if it becomes dogmatic and intrudes upon my right not to believe it."<<

The der Waal excerpt I linked to at the beginning of this thread makes the point that the neo-atheists have become as dogmatic at some of the believers they condemn.

>>I disagree with the notion of Militant or New Atheists since I think this is a canard.
Atheists haven't changed at all except now they (whoever and however different they are) are more vocal.<<

"neo" means "new" Der Wall complains about neo-atheists in that article and identifies Hitchens and Dawkins as neo-atheists and points to them directly as being too dogmatic.

You seem to be both praising der Waal for his insights and directly contradicting those insights. It confuses me. Would you please clear that up?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: BrendanB
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 04:07 PM

Steve, regarding atheists telling me what to believe - I would have been more accurate if I had said atheists telling me what NOT to believe. Can you honestly say that nowhere in any of your posts is there a form of words that could be construed as meaning one should not believe in religion? I also feel that your description of Catholic schools in the UK is a distortion of today's reality.
Don, I can cope with being called a doughnut, you should hear what my friends sometimes call me!
pfss .....'your pick and choose beliefs'(!). .....'nuff said!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 04:17 PM

""I usually lump organized religion, organized labor, and organized crime together. The Mafia gets points for having the best restaurants"". Dave Beard


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 04:38 PM

"The best mind altering drug is truth".


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 05:22 PM


One problem with lying to get your kid into a faith school is that you are severely disadvantaging your kid


So why do they do it?
Answer, because the faith schools get the best results.

That is why atheists lie about being Christians.
To get their kids a place they are not entitled to, with no moral compunction about depriving Christian families of a place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 05:48 PM

BTW Brendan, I think you realize that I was not defending you. Just pointing that what had been done to me was being done to you.

I am truly sorry if you took that as any hint that I thought that you could not or would not defend yourself if you thought it was necessary.

You handled it better than me. Stupid me, kept engaging him AFTER I had pointed out that he was not consistent post to post. Which you pointed out in your last post.

And obviously the doughnut comment was not my interest. I mentioned it jokingly. It was the Mudcat pedantic nitpicking which sidetracks so many conversations here that I wanted to addres. Lately I have been asking myself "does it serve the conversation?" and have refused to nitpick over little, unintentional things.

I apologize to you Don that I singled you you out. I was irritable at the time and singling you out was wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 05:57 PM

Musket, I do not remember if you ever posted about trombones.
I remembered that post because it shocked me a little.
An atheist stating that lying is OK because there is no God, so it is OK to lie to deprive a Christian child of a place at a Christian faith school and get your own kid in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: BrendanB
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 06:05 PM

Rest easy Jack, I don't take offence very often and nothing you have said could possibly offend me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 06:11 PM

Steve, regarding atheists telling me what to believe - I would have been more accurate if I had said atheists telling me what NOT to believe. Can you honestly say that nowhere in any of your posts is there a form of words that could be construed as meaning one should not believe in religion?

Well I don't think anyone's talking about "believing in religion". I expect there are many people who believe in God who also hate religion. I don't care what you believe in. I've said that so many times I feel like a parrot. What I do care about is that you do not force those beliefs on children. My reason for thinking that is that it is entirely inappropriate to expect children to understand what you are telling them. In addition, religions talk to children about God as if he's an absolute certainty. That automatically makes religions liars. It's no good trying to tell me that the modern way is to "get them to think and talk about it". That is not good enough. All your hymns and prayers contain explicit certainty and you make children chant them off by heart. The Lord's Prayer is full of rock-solid certainties. Every Christian child can chant it from memory. Well, that's how they brainwashed people in those horrid communist regimes we are all so glad are now consigned to history, remember?

I also feel that your description of Catholic schools in the UK is a distortion of today's reality.

So are you telling me that Catholic schools don't tell children that Catholicism is the only way, the truth and the light? That there are classrooms without crucifixes? That they don't herd children off to services on holy days at the drop of a hat? Make them sing Christmas carols? Make them bow their heads in prayer? Is that what you're telling me?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 06:26 PM

Well, Steve, three of my four kids went to Catholic schools, and one to a Waldorf/Steiner school. They were all exposed to Catholic teachings as children, along with indoctrination in my beliefs in tolerance and left-wing politics and a number of other things.

When they grew up, they chose their own paths. Not one of them is practicing a religious faith. I suppose I might have liked it if at least one of them were still Catholic, but that didn't happen and it's not my right to push them in any direction.

Still, I don't think they were hurt by seeing crucifixes in their classrooms. But I don't think the Catholic religion was taught to them (or to me) as rigidly as you might expect.

But hey, if I'm Catholic and I'm raising kids, why is it wrong for me to bring them up in my religious tradition? I made it clear to them that when they were of age, the choice would be up to them. They all grew up to be good, nonideological people who have been exposed to a wide spectrum of schools of thought.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 06:31 PM

"So are you telling me that Catholic schools don't tell children that Catholicism is the only way, the truth and the light? That there are classrooms without crucifixes? That they don't herd children off to services on holy days at the drop of a hat? Make them sing Christmas carols? Make them bow their heads in prayer? Is that what you're telling me? "

Make them?

Make! them?


Make!!!!! them?!!!

They are enrolling in Catholic schools Mr Shaw!! THEY ARE SIGNING UP FOR ALL OF THAT!!!   

What are you saying???? Are you saying that Atheist parents should lie to get their kids into a Catholic school then complain because the school is Catholic?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 07:45 PM

Steve, many Catholic schools pride themselves in teaching what they call "critical thinking" - the Jesuits take special pride in this, and have taught in this method for centuries. I think this could also be called "nonideological thinking."

I was taught from early on, by both my parents and my Catholic school teachers, to take everything with a grain of salt. I was taught that Bible stories should be studied for their meaning, for the lessons they teach - not for historical facts. Never once was I told to doubt evolution, although I was generally told that God acted and is acting through the process of evolution.

In general, I think it's safe to say that reality is, what it is. We see the same natural processes. If I see God acting through those processes and you see the same process without seeing an action of God, it's still the same process - we just have different perspectives.

I just got a call from our parish religious education director, asking me to teach this Sunday's session for the class for kids who are going to receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation (i.e., penance, confession). I asked her what I should cover, and she just said, "Do your thing, Joe." She knows I'd do "my thing" anyhow, and I think she likes to have me teach the kids because she knows I present things in a nonideological manner. So, we're going to talk about what it means to be sorry, to apologize, and to forgive. I will do my best to try to bring them to an understanding of these things as it means to them in their hearts, not in some dogma.

Now, I have to say that when I use my nonideological methods on people who are more comfortable with ideology, things don't always work out well. I've detailed in other threads how often people with a grammar school religious education have accused me of heresy, and I have a pastor who is scared to death of what I might say to people. But I think I stick pretty close to Catholic teaching - I'm just nonideological about it. I try to ensure that the people I teach have an understanding of myth, the meaning of ritual, and the thinking that should go behind making a moral decision. Some of this stuff sounds like heresy to ideological Christians, but what I teach has always been taught by nonideological Christians, back to the time of Christ and the Apostles.

So, usually at the end of every class, I'll do a review and find out what people have learned. Sometimes, it makes me want to scream. If people have an ideological mindset, they just don't get it - and then they can come up with some really weird ideas. But I keep trying.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 08:32 PM

""In addition, religions talk to children about God as if he's an absolute certainty. That automatically makes religions liars.""

To put it into another perspective - for analysis purposes only- parents tell their children a number of imaginary characters are real such as Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and a multitude of other fabled characters, and talking animals in stories and cartoons. In some cases kids can even sit on their knee, to prove they are real.

I hardly expect that this scars kids for a lifetime? I expect, (and their is likely evidence to back it up), as they reach the "age of reason" these young adults realize (through sound reasoning, on their own) that these characters are not real? They then "move on" to freely make their own informed choices in life to move forward with or without these imaginary, and harmless childhood chararcters in their lives. Is it not so? If so, is there not a degree of parallel in parents choice to expose their children to religion, and related positive messages?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 08:38 PM

i had to fix a couple of typos...you can remove the other one....


Guest(whoever you are because you don't sign in with a name, and you should)..I'm aware of Constantine, and the battle at Istanbul, in which he claimed to see a cross etc etc...and about his mother pushing for all the other stuff too...and i was going to put that history into my post, and you are correct...but I cut and pasted from another site, being short on time....regardless, the Roman Empire co-opted the newly spreading Christian faith..(much like the Democratic Party co-opted the 'Peace Movement' in the 60's)..Christianity had nothing to do with forming the 'First Reich'..and for that matter not really much to do with the formation of the Catholic Church, either.

That being said...which brings us to the second point, Catholic schools spit in the milk of public schools academically....NO Comparison!! If a parent wanted their kids to get a decent education and are willing to pay the tuition, let them...matter of fact, all the more power to them!
.....and that being said.....Spirituality is a gift..it does not come from how many crucifixes are on the wall, or how many chants you repeat....it doesn't come from liturgical attendances...music, as well is a gift...it doesn't come from what 'artists' you like..or what everyone around you is listening to...or what is 'hip' and the trend d'jour....it IS a gift....and truth to tell, it comes from the same place spirituality comes from...not because you picked up an instrument in your pubescent years just to get noticed or laid....and the people who excel at music are people who have a PASSION for it...people who get spiritually closer are people who have a PASSION for it...and that doesn't particularity mean making a pest of yourself about it or trying to shove it down other people's throats...it's way too personal, as is music and how it forms within.
...and of course, that being said......
'Religion', the word, just means 'way of life'...for those who miss out on being spiritual there's always a Religion(as in an organized church) that they can subscribe to. That doesn't mean that a parishioner isn't or can't be spiritual, but it also doesn't mean that their spirituality comes from being a good parishioner or 'church member'....
....that being said(again), your 'way of life'(religion) has to do more with your behavior patterns, more than what you THINK you 'Believe' or say you profess.......
..and that being said (once again) atheism is NOT a religion, or way of life...but it can be an excuse for bad behavior and resenting authority...but atheism is NOT a striven for attainment of anything...if so, what?...and if they 'battle God' or the widespread belief in God, then it would be safe to say that they are more obsessed about God, than many a church going parishioner!!!

Now instead of re-acting, just THINK about it, first...CALMLY...and you will probably come to the same conclusion....unless you're still grinding you own personal axes...that nobody sees, or even cares about.
(Must feel about the same as a 'religious' fanatic!!).

Waving.........
GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:00 PM

Well, you see, Santa and the Tooth Fairy are yarns that we actively release our kids from when they get to a certain age. Let's dispel the somewhat mischievous comparison of those benign fellows with what children are told about God and Jesus. Yes, we have baby Jesus and angels and shepherds and all that lot. Along with them, parenthetically, we have the hymns and the the carols and the Gentle Jesus prayers. Are you released from these images as you grow up, as with Santa and the tooth Fairy? Why no, you are not! The very opposite,in fact! You are soon introduced to the darker concepts of sin, heaven and hell, the prayers get more assertive (and more riddled with certainties) and the whole thing suddenly becomes very grown-up. Unfortunately, the children to whom this stuff is peddled are not grown up. You can't afford to wait until then, of course, as you'll lose them if you're not careful. There's all that indoctrination by prayer, hymn, services and instruction, and those crucifixes to remind you every minute of the club you're in. Now there are enlightened fellows like Joe who debate issues with their kids and let them know they have a penalty-free choice. That is very nice. In Africa and Latin America, millions of Catholic women are suffering from having too many kids, from HIV/Aids, from poverty, from knitting-needle abortions and from gross inequality, and all because they never had a Joe Offer to let them know they had the choice to argue back and escape the shackles of the Church, penalty-free, if they wanted to. Even if they had, the iron grip of the Church would still have stayed their liberation. The real world out there might just not be that of middle-class America after all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:08 PM

Make!!!!! them?!!!

They are enrolling in Catholic schools Mr Shaw!! THEY ARE SIGNING UP FOR ALL OF THAT!!!


Well, Jack, let me make the somewhat elementary point you appear to have overlooked that the people who are doing the signing-up are the parents. The ten-year-olds (or younger) who are being enrolled are not, generally, engaged in a serious, grown-up conversation about what mummy and daddy are letting them in for. I'm so glad I could clear that up for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:25 PM

Steve, I don't think you give those "poor African savages" the credit due them. It's not one's instruction that makes one able to think for oneself instead of blindly following a leader - it's who one is as a person. I'm quite sure that there are many nonideological people spread throughout the world, even in "darkest Africa."

As for the others, even if they ARE ideological, they get to choose their ideology.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:27 PM

Yes and that is such a good point because you know so better than their parents what those kids need.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:44 PM

""Well, you see, Santa and the Tooth Fairy are yarns that we actively release our kids from when they get to a certain age."'

Well, possibly I was in a fortunate minority? When I look back, I fell that I was just as "released" to make my own decisions on religion, as with all the the fabled characters mentioned. Some I retain, and even passed (the experience) on to my children (Santa an the like) as they enlightened my youthful life. With religion, I ensured my children had exposure, and were free to make their own choices, which they did (my son is an athiest, my daughter a non-practicing but believing christian).

But, I look back at all these youth experiences (including religious awareness) with a smile, as I see that they did no harm to my childhood, but did add perspective and, yes, a sparkle of joy in my youthful eye:)

BTW, my intent is in not intended as "somewhat mischievous comparisons" I see them as meaningful comparisons, that have no mischevious intent at all - but could have a purpose in the discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:50 PM

Steve, I don't think you give those "poor African savages" the credit due them. It's not one's instruction that makes one able to think for oneself instead of blindly following a leader - it's who one is as a person. I'm quite sure that there are many nonideological people spread throughout the world, even in "darkest Africa."

I'm appalled at your characterisation, which you appear to be attaching to me here, of African women as savages. Time and time again I've stood up here for women in Africa and Latin America. I've attacked with vehemence the teachings of so-called Christians like Mother Teresa who strove to keep women in ignorance and poverty. There is nothing in the make-up of African women, any more than any women, that condemns them to their large families, constant pregnancies and high rates of sexually-transmitted disease. It is men who keep them that way. Their own traditions, their own menfolk and those men in Rome who decree that they will stay just as they are. If Africa is dark then it's us who keep it dark. If the women look like savages it's because men condemn them to look that way. And some of those men you appear to be rather quick to defend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:50 PM

Steve, I don't think you give those "poor African savages" the credit due them. It's not one's instruction that makes one able to think for oneself instead of blindly following a leader - it's who one is as a person. I'm quite sure that there are many nonideological people spread throughout the world, even in "darkest Africa."

I'm appalled at your characterisation, which you appear to be attaching to me here, of African women as savages. Time and time again I've stood up here for women in Africa and Latin America. I've attacked with vehemence the teachings of so-called Christians like Mother Teresa who strove to keep women in ignorance and poverty. There is nothing in the make-up of African women, any more than any women, that condemns them to their large families, constant pregnancies and high rates of sexually-transmitted disease. It is men who keep them that way. Their own traditions, their own menfolk and those men in Rome who decree that they will stay just as they are. If Africa is dark then it's us who keep it dark. If the women look like savages it's because men condemn them to look that way. And some of those men you appear to be rather quick to defend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:50 PM

Steve, I don't think you give those "poor African savages" the credit due them. It's not one's instruction that makes one able to think for oneself instead of blindly following a leader - it's who one is as a person. I'm quite sure that there are many nonideological people spread throughout the world, even in "darkest Africa."

I'm appalled at your characterisation, which you appear to be attaching to me here, of African women as savages. Time and time again I've stood up here for women in Africa and Latin America. I've attacked with vehemence the teachings of so-called Christians like Mother Teresa who strove to keep women in ignorance and poverty. There is nothing in the make-up of African women, any more than any women, that condemns them to their large families, constant pregnancies and high rates of sexually-transmitted disease. It is men who keep them that way. Their own traditions, their own menfolk and those men in Rome who decree that they will stay just as they are. If Africa is dark then it's us who keep it dark. If the women look like savages it's because men condemn them to look that way. And some of those men you appear to be rather quick to defend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:53 PM

I sent that once. Typed it, checked it, corrected it, copied in case it went awol - then hit send. Once. So it's here three times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:56 PM

Ya' gotta forgive Steve...he's still bitter about his Catholic upbringing....so much, he's hung up on the God thing...even more so than those proselytizing Catholicism.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 10:12 PM

300 whoop-ti-doos!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 01:27 AM

Steve Shaw, you're just too ideological for me. You seem to thing the world is one big brainwashing machine, controlled by demagogues - so you want to ensure that the demagogues impose your way of thinking on the earth.

There's no doubt that the birth rate in Africa is high. My contention is that this is a cultural thing that has gone on for centuries, not a function of a 1968 declaration by the Pope in Rome. And yes, I would guess that you are right that that high birth rate may well be the doing of men. In general, it seems to me that impoverished rural societies tend to have higher birth rates. As societies become urban and gain a higher standard of education and living, the birth rate tends to go down. Rome has little or nothing to do with it.

If you can find me data to prove that it's Rome that's causing the birth rate in Africa, I might believe you. But to me, that sounds preposterous.

And your condemnation of Mother Teresa, heartfelt though it may be, sounds just as preposterous.

Both of your conspiracy theories seem to be based on an inflated view of the power of ideology, like you think Rome and Mother Teresa are brainwashing entire nations, or something. We get accusations like that all the time in the right-wing county where I live. My friend the former Jesuit put on a panel discussion of capital punishment at the local community college. He was accused of "brainwashing" college students because he didn't invite supporters of capital punishment to speak. And the pro-gun people make the same accusations, as do the anti-immigration people and those who think Social Security is Communism.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 01:31 AM

Joe Offer: "And the pro-gun people make the same accusations, as do the anti-immigration people and......"

..and vise verse!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 01:51 AM

Not in my county, GfS. All the brainwashing accusations come from the vast, right-wing majority. I think we're rated the most conservative county in the State of California.

In general, it seems to me that it's ideologically-oriented people (on both the left and the right) who raise the charge of "brainwashing."

Myself, I don't really believe in brainwashing, although I have found that some people are indeed stupid.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 01:58 AM

Here's an interesting study: World Health Organization (WHO) - Family planning in sub-Saharan Africa: progress or stagnation?. I would think that an organization like WHO would be an appropriate conveyor of birth control supplies and information - and it's a job WHO should be able to do very effectively. Why lay that responsibility on the churches?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:01 AM

Do you live in Orange County??

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:13 AM

"Spirituality is a gift..it does not come from how many crucifixes are on the wall, or how many chants you repeat....it doesn't come from liturgical attendances..."
.,,.
Maybe not entirely, or even perhaps mainly, GfS. But these tendentious aids certainly help in fixing & reinforcing the 'spiritual' message, don't they?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:20 AM

Hi, GfS - I live in Placer County, northeast of Sacramento. Orange County has had a huge rise in its Hispanic population, and lost its reputation for conservatism in the process.

This page gives a political analysis of California. Figure 3 shows Placer as more conservative as Orange, but Shasta as the most conservative.

I think we share a congressman with Shasta with the recent redistricting.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 06:14 AM

Keith. You are not depriving a Christian child a place at school by lying about believing in all that nonsense to get your child a place for two reasons.

1. A state school cannot discriminate based on belief even though they break the law repeatedly by doing so. My taxes pay for equal opportunities.

2. There is no such thing as a Christian child.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 07:41 AM

My mother was a rc, and my father an athiest.

However, both were comitted to ensuring that their children were exposed to a religious experience in early life. I once overheard my father talking to one of his friends about what seemed to be a paradox on his part.He said that, while he was not a believer, he saw a personal and social benefit of the Christian messages. He indicated that he did not want to impose his views exclusively, but preferred to have his children exposed to religious thought so they could make up their own minds as adults. In reflection, that seemed to make a lot of sense to me, so, I followed his example, IMO, with good results.

While there is no doubt that humans have used religion and distorted religious messages to promote bad causes throughout history. But, this should be more of a reflection on the people "who did the deeds", rather than the instruments they misused.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 08:13 AM

What was interesting about my athiest father was a close friend of the local rc priest. They frequently visited each other, fished trout together, and even shared a drink or two on occasion.

When questioned about the odd relationship, I once overheard my father say "the reason we get along is we do not impose our "personal" views on each other. We have common interests and he, (the priest) knows he is not going to convert me and I know I am not going to convert him. So, we put aside those personal differences and talk about other things and just enjoy each others company".

Again, it makes sense to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 08:38 AM

Most of my family and friends are Christian. One or two of the in laws rather strongly. The local vicar where I used to live was a good mate, member of our Thursday night poker school and as with most people, we had a good few discussions over whisky regarding the subject.

I think what makes Internet debate slightly different is that whilst some people treat it exactly the same as they would face to face, many, me included tend to drift to the pole end of our opinions on the basis that it and by inference we don't exist.

I for one enjoy being more forthright than Ian could possibly be. It doesn't mean Ian would disown Musket. Just that Musket can speak his mind and that alone is cathartic.

So.. bollocks to all I suppose?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 08:41 AM

Dearie me. Let's see if I have this right. You don't have to be a brainwasher to think that religious "education" is a good thing. You can send your kid to the local faith school (in which, let's face it, you don't really know what's going on) and then offer correctives at home.

Well forgive me for concluding that this is just one unholy mess. Your children are taught that myth is truth, then they come home and you tell them something different. This is kids, remember, not mature adults. What's more, that's just you. My parents and millions like them just let the school get on with it. We all trudged off to Mass every Sunday but not once did we ever discuss religion at home. And I don't think that that was exactly a freakishly-unusual household, do you? You appear to be justifying the whole concept of the indoctrination of immature and highly-impressionable children on the basis that you, Joe Offer, give them context at home. Well, that's a bit of an eyes-shut notion if you don't mind my saying so. And let me ask you this schoolroom question (the other one is "who made God then?"): why, when faith and religion are such complex and grown-up matters (and don't tell me they're not - I don't need to ask you whether you've read a theology book lately!), can't we just leave it out until the kids are grown up? Seventeen or eighteen, let's say, when they are old enough to consider the information and decide for themselves, instead of having their faith and their instruction in it decided for them when they are too young to understand the consequences? What would be the harm?

(Actually, I do know the answer, but I'll wait for you to give your imaginative alternative before saying more...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 08:52 AM

...And are you really trying to tell me that the Church's ban on contraception (and don't tell me that stuff about "conscience" and "choice" - you have no choice when you country can't or won't provide condoms), in those third-world countries that are predominantly Catholic, has absolutely nothing to do with high birth rates, high abortion rates, a raging epidemic of HIV/Aids among women and all the ensuing poverty that goes with it all? And you say that it's me who's being preposterous?

As for Mother Teresa, my opinion of her is based on my honest search for information about her. If you do the same thing you will find that it's impossible to come to any conclusion about her sheer wickedness that's any different to mine. None so blind...


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:04 AM

Actually, if "militant atheism" has become a religion, which I doubt, then why is it that
Christians are so intolerant of it? Why, for example, on this thread, are brickbats being thrown at atheists and a religious war against atheists is being waged?

Why is it that some Christians are so insulted and offended that criticism is mounted at what they believe? Could it be that their so-called "faith" is so flimsy that it can't stand to be examined?

I have known some religious people, the Quakers, for example, who will not chastise those who criticize or examine how they believe but they quietly go on doing their work, most of it socially redeeming and disregard any comment that they don't like. They, in my experience, are not hypocrites because their actions are of social importance, at times of disaster they are there, sending food overseas to the needy.....so many things.

I like the famous Native American chief who said that "churches are where white men go to fight about god".


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:27 AM

MtheGM: "But these tendentious aids certainly help in fixing & reinforcing the 'spiritual' message, don't they?"

Maybe a 'religious' message, but not necessarily a 'spiritual' one. I suppose if you think that seeing a crucifix on a wall, gives a church the authority to smack a kid, you could draw an analogy to the Jewish clergy wanting Jesus killed...and Pilate okaying it, because he was in fear of losing his job!!
Gosh, sounds like the chemistry of church/state tyranny???

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:33 AM

It strikes me that many of our outspoken atheist contributors care more about venting their opinions than they do about the effect that it has on our rapidly dying community.

It is possible to discuss one's ideas about the nature of life and the choices we have in dealing with it without calling others names, though this is not as cathartic as some of you need.

The thing about catharsis is that no one wants to walk through the detritus, and as Mudcat dwindles, most of what we've got left is detritus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:41 AM


Keith. You are not depriving a Christian child a place at school by lying about believing in all that nonsense to get your child a place for two reasons.

1. A state school cannot discriminate based on belief even though they break the law repeatedly by doing so. My taxes pay for equal opportunities.

2. There is no such thing as a Christian child.


The faith schools are oversubcribed.
If you lie and cheat to get a kid in, you are depriving an honest kid.

Also, you will have to explain to your kid why you lied and cheated.
The school will be telling the kid it is wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:58 AM

It strikes me that many of our outspoken atheist contributors care more about venting their opinions than they do about the effect that it has on our rapidly dying community.

It demonstrates an even greater degree of Christian panic than even I'd imagined when I see such resort to blackmail... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 11:45 AM

So you are saying that the children in performing schools whose parents don't believe in all that nonsense are not honest kids?

No hope for you then.

My lads both went to the local comp. My eldest, on becoming a father himself recently, paid me the compliment of saying we taught him how to think, not what to think. I doubt a well balanced child would call their parents liars and cheaters. I also doubt that the mainly irreligious teachers would encourage the thought. If society is such that people have to resort to saying they have an imaginary friend (preferably without pissing themselves laughing when saying it) in order to obtain a decent education, it is society and indeed government policy that has the issues, not the parents.

Good grades and education are not a result of reading from the big book of fairy stories but the discipline and sense of attainment that go with any school that does not see itself as child minder for chavs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stu
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 12:07 PM

"It strikes me that many of our outspoken atheist contributors care more about venting their opinions than they do about the effect that it has on our rapidly dying community."

Wow. You're going to lay the blame for the perceived decline of a forum at the feet of one part of the community?

Think about that sentence you wrote and what it really means.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 01:00 PM

Yeah. It is all the atheists fault. Bastards.

Zzzzzzzzzzzz


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:14 PM

The "decline" is dramatic, and it's been discussed in another, current thread, where I've made a more extensive comment. As to "blame", I am not blaming you, a careful reader will note that I didn't say you were responsible for it dying, just that you weren't helping things.

If I haven't said it before, I will say now that anything you have to say about music is more interesting than everything you have to say about religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:16 PM


So you are saying that the children in performing schools whose parents don't believe in all that nonsense are not honest kids?


No.
Only the ones who lied and cheated to get a place, like your friend did, and you say you would.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 03:13 PM

Obviously a parent who checks "Catholic" on an enrollment forum , when the family is not, is performing an immoral act.

Obviously a child taught to lie to his schoolmates and teachers about the faith of his family is learning to lie and is making lying part of daily life.

It is difficult to imagine that looking at crosses in the classroom would be more damaging than that. Though I guess that once they graduate they could go into politics or sell used cars.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 03:39 PM

"Actually, if "militant atheism" has become a religion, which I doubt, then why is it that"

No one on this thread has claimed that. The title above is title of the de Waal article on Salon. If you have a problem with it take it up with him. This is talked over and explained in the first few posts of this thread. You've claimed to have read the thread by now. Haven't you? Please show some respect for us and know what we said instead of arguing against things that we never did say.

>>Christians are so intolerant of it? Why, for example, on this thread, are brickbats being thrown at atheists and a religious war against atheists is being waged?<<

There is no religious war against atheists. I made it clear that I was talking about the aggressive tactics of three people and three only. Mr Dawkins, Mr. Shaw and Musket. It is interesting to note that at different times the first two have disqualified themselves from the definition of atheist. Comb the thread. Try to find a negative comment about atheists that was not about these three or a reply to another speaker about the words of that speaker. I've argued that calling people of faith delusional is childish and mean. But no where have I said that all atheists do it. In fact outside this forum the only place I have seen it defended or done was by Mr. Dawkins.

So please, discontinue this line of attack and please read the thread before the next time you complain about the contents.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 04:15 PM

Well, Steve, I guess I have to admit that I would not send my children to schools that take the literalist view of religion that you describe. One of the things I liked best about the Catholic schools my children attended, was that I was always welcome in the classroom. I was invited to sing and tell stories in all the classrooms every fall, and I occasionally taught a class on something or another. I was very much aware of what was being taught to my children - and it was nothing like what you describe.

And this particular Catholic school wasn't unusual - it was typical for most schools in most dioceses in the United States. No, I can't speak for English or Irish Catholic schools. But the general philosophy of Catholic education in the United States is quite progressive - often more progressive than some public schools that have to water down their curriculum to placate the fundamentalists and other special interest groups.

I knew my kids were getting a good education in Catholic school, that they were being taught to think for themselves. I knew Catholics who preferred to send their children to "Christian" (born-again) schools - mostly because they thought the Catholic schools were too liberal. Many of these "Christian" schools took the literalist approach you decry, doing their best to turn out good, Christian, Tea Party Americans.

My oldest son went to Jesuit High School in Sacramento, where often-wealthy students are required to spend a week with homeless people before graduation. Yes, there were complaints of "socialist brainwashing" from some parents, but the Jesuits kept the requirement.

Steve, I totally reject your view that exposing children to religious tradition is harmful. Much of my Catholic religious tradition is rich and interesting. Even if my children don't practice it, I think they learned a lot from it. Yes, there are extremes that are more like indoctrination than education, but I wasn't foolish enough to send my kids to indoctrination.

But more than that, I find your own view of religion to be rigid, literalist, and doctrinaire - very different from my experience of religion. If that's what you experienced in early life, then I'm sorry that happened to you. But that's not the way that religion is supposed to be. For me, it was fun to grow up Catholic.

I know people who grew up Catholic in India, the Philippines, Korea, several African and Latin American nations, England, Ireland, France, and a host of other nations. For some, it was rigid and oppressive. But for many, it was a rich and enjoyable experience - and they received an excellent education along with it.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 04:33 PM

Joe, My Mother taught in a Catholic school in a suburb of Toronto for several years. I think around 1997 to 2005 somewhere in there. The way she described it, it was almost as liberal as the public schools which she taught in for many years but without nearly as many discipline problems. She wasn't able to face the public school children at her age.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 02:36 AM

Keith.

It is not lying or cheating to say you believe in fantasy as there is nothing to lie about.

I wouldn't hesitate to join the thousands of parents who do this each and every year. If Igo to a wwedding, are you saying I am lying when out of decency I bow my head when the prayers start? It means nothing to me yet I do it. Same thing.

You seem to think that there are such things as Christian children. There aren't. Full stop. There are children of Christian or Muslim parents but like most cults, they have ceremonies such as confirmation etc as religions seem to accept the need to affirm faith through adult free will.

In the meantime, the law forbids faith schools to discriminate on grounds of religious membership or opinion of parents or carers. Many children in care are sent to such schools and I can confirm that their local children's social services departments are irreligious by law.

Your rather silly and in some ways nasty comments don't appear to have any credibility.

It's about time it came into these threads. Blasphemy is a victimless crime. Ha bloody ha


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 04:28 AM

If you participate in a wedding or funeral not of your belief, you are acting out of respect and not stealing a benefit to which you are not entitled by deception.
UK faith schools "may give priority to applicants who are of the faith of the school",[1] but must admit other applicants if they cannot fill all of their places and must ensure that their admission arrangements comply with the School Admissions Code.

That is why atheists lie and cheat to get a faith education for their kids even if it may deprive genuine Christian's of a place at a Christian school.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 04:47 AM

Religious schools in the U.S. are not supported by tax money. That eliminates some of the UK duplicity described above, but tuition for high school can be as much as $10,000 per year or more at private schools. Despite the cost, these schools are much in demand because of higher standards of education and a generally safer atmosphere. The Catholic schools in my Sacramento diocese welcome students of other faiths or no faith. There is usually a requirement to attend all classes, including religion - but the classes are generally taught in an "inclusive" manner.
But Catholics who belong to and participate in a Catholic parish, are offered a discount. Some people lie to get the discount, but such is life.
I sent my oldest son to a Jesuit high school. I liked the school, but I felt uncomfortable with the fact that so many of the students were so wealthy and materialistic. My son had to ride to school in a carpool, but the parking lot at school was full of fancy cars belonging to students. I talked with a few priests on the faculty about how the materialism bothered me. They agreed, and said that they did their best to fight off the materialism. But with tuition of $10,000 a year, materialism and wealth were dominant forces (gee- now it's $12,010). I sent my younger son to a (LaSalle) Christian Brothers school, and that school was much less materialistic. Tuition there is $11,835, but there are scholarships available - funded by the proceeds of the sale of the Christian Brothers Winery. The Jesuit "Abbey" winery in California wasn't worth much.

Still, the two boys' Catholic high schools have both been the school of preference for the Movers and Shakers of Sacramento, no matter what their religious preference. That has made us po' folks feel like second class citizens.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 04:57 AM

Redundant apostrophe. You may benefit from a school yourself Keith.

When a child gets into a school nobody is being deprived anything because a child is being taught. Silly.

There is no privilege for religion or non religion in a community and the clause you refer to is presently subject to a challenge in The European courts for discriminating public services on grounds of religion. Gove has already indicated that the faith schools will have to be reassessed after the ruling that even he expects.

Thousands and thousands of parents want the best for their children and if you say you are a Christian to get it, well it can't be lying because saying you believe in something that isn't based on fact or evidence makes you exactly the same as those who do. The difference is that you are deluding one less person, ie yourself.

Again, there are no Christian children. No such thing.

No matter. You keep reminding us that your vote goes to a right wing potty party so your views won't ever interfere with reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 05:10 AM

No Christian children, Musket?

Come to my parish church and tell the kids that. They will disagree.

I have to say that I disagree with you, too, since I've worked with Christian children all my life. They live in Christian families and they're brought up in Christian tradition - and they generally seem to be quite at home in that context. They may grow up and choose some other path - but for the time that they're children, they're Christian children.

Now, if you're Anabaptist and believe only in adults belonging to churches, then maybe that's a different story. But many (maybe most) Christians bring their children up as Christians - and rightly so. When the kids become adults, the choice is theirs.


-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 06:29 AM

They are children being brought up in a family with Christian values Joe and that is a very different thing. Just about every religion has a ceremony of rites of passage. There is a genuine reason for that.

You can say a child is blonde, has blue eyes or is American by birth but you cannot ascribe something suggestive such as religion and make mental leaps.

Children are by any value innocent. There rests the case M'Lud.

If by choice in the future retain their faith then you have another card carrying member and I hope it is a comfort for them rather than fuck their brains, but a child is a child and dressing them as adults doesn't alter it one jot. Your Bible explains it better than I can.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 06:39 AM

""brendan- please be assured that i was not,and am not now irritated by your pick and choose beliefs.i trust that my believing the bible does not irritate you either.""

Pete, nobody gives a tinker's cuss what you choose to believe.

The irritant is when you try to shove your beliefs down our throats as science.

Keep 'em where they belong, in your own mind and heart, and leave science to people who know what it is, no problem.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 06:52 AM


When a child gets into a school nobody is being deprived anything because a child is being taught. Silly


If the school is over-subscribed, as is often the case with faith schools, the lying family may well force out an honest family.
That is morally wrong.
Lying and cheating to obtain an advantage for your own is also morally wrong.
Making your child participate in the deception by rehearsing lies, is despicable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 07:23 AM

"It is not lying or cheating to say you believe in fantasy as there is nothing to lie about. "

So the kids are not being told to lie to their teachers "because there is nothing to lie about"?


Keith I do not think you are getting the implications of what Musket is saying. He is saying that it is NOT morally wrong to lie to or about people of faith because they believe in "fantasy."

That is the type of provisional morality one usually sees in small, tight knit religious cults and sects which I will not name. This is the first time I have ever seen it expressed by someone who would not normally be considered by society to be a religious zealot.

One thing that such an attitude says to me that if you are religious or defending religion is that he has no moral or ethical barriers to lying to you. Anything he says to you could be a lie. I'm not saying that he is necessarily lying to you. I'm saying that he just said he has no problem doing so. It makes such a person a very poor source of information of course and an untrustworthy debating partner.

Please everyone I am not attacking all atheists. I am talking about the expressed attitude of one person.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 07:44 AM

Don't be bloody stupid Sailor Boy, even by your own standards..

Keith, they are strong words which ring hollow when twisted in the way you have done.

We have schools in The UK. The state run schools are by law subject to equal access, regardless of faith, creed, colour, sexual orientation etc. This is covered by The Human Rights Act. The government has allowed state funded schools to express a faith and this is subject to challenge when they are the local state run school. In the meantime, the only way you can assert your legal right to education of your offspring in those areas where such schools are situated is to pretend to go along with their soon to be outlawed dogma.

It is not lying, cheating or anything else. it is ensuring a decent education for your children. And yes Jack, lying about your faith is not a crime as there is nothing tangible under law about it. Most people who call themselves Christians don't actually believe in all that nonsense as being fact, including many clergy. I recall an ex Bishop of Durham getting into hot water for saying the virgin birth, rising from the dead etc was cobblers to amaze ignorant peasants into accepting it as special.

Most politicians pretend to be religious in order to get the hypocritical vote. Most parents of children in faith schools are no more Christian than I am and happily say so.

Hypocrisy has many flavours and the false outrage of you two does you no favours whatsoever. Yeah, Yeah, I'm a Christian. Yeah, Yeah, I am smug. Yeah, Yeah, my words attacking Musket have no christian values contained in them whatsoever.

Jack, you have not been a trustworthy debating partner since you started pushing your beliefs down the throats of people you knew would react.

The only thing despicable here Keith is those who brainwash their children. Yep, I'm proud of the fact my lads were taught how to think rather than what to think.

Sanctimonious twats.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 07:54 AM

"Most politicians pretend to be religious in order to get the hypocritical vote. Most parents of children in faith schools are no more Christian than I am and happily say so."

How do we know he is not making this up as he goes? Does he have some sort of wholesale mind reading machine?   He says it is OK to lie. Is he lying? Tough question.

He certainly thinks calling people "silly" and "stupid" is an acceptable part of "debate."

I would think the very definition of stupid would be to tell someone it is OK to lie to people who have the same beliefs as them then expecting those people to trust his words.

It makes me think that his object is not to debate but to abuse. I think he is violating the terms of service at worst, being very disrespectful at best.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 08:27 AM

Of course, it's the various forms of Christianity that are " in your face"!
Five minutes ago, a couple of Mormons - or whatever - were knocking on my door.
Earlier this week, I was having a quiet coffee in café when a couple of Jehovah Witnesses tried to give me a leaflet.
Come tomorrow morning, I will be awakened to the sound of church bells.
Every week on BBC TV, there is a programme called "Songs of Praise"!
BBC radio has a daily [religious'] "Thoughts for today" message.

Now there is nothing coming from - militant - atheist to balance that lot!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 08:36 AM

That's right Jack. Explore whether you can get opposing views restricted. You have form in this regard.

My points are made from reading results of surveys, interviews and media interest. The Sunday Times commissioned a survey regarding pretending to believe in God to get your kids into performing schools. The results are widely published. The deputy Prime Minister and leader of the opposition have both declared that before admitting they are not Christians they had both gone along with the idea in order to ensure votes. My local MP where I used to live did likewise and after he retired said so.

And this will carry on happening whilst ever religions attempt to influence decent people.

Anybody who goes along with religious nonsense in order to gain equality has committed no crime, no moral problem and no issue. If religions seek to influence more, this is what they are encouraging.

The answer is to keep your faith in your churches and mosques and stop finding ways of ramming it down people's throats and then get upset when nobody wants to play silly games.

I repeat. Blasphemy. A victimless crime. Ha bloody ha.

In supporting parents in this way, I am part of the majority over here by the way. Sleep tight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 09:46 AM

""Can you honestly say that nowhere in any of your posts is there a form of words that could be construed as meaning one should not believe in religion? I also feel that your description of Catholic schools in the UK is a distortion of today's reality.""

Yes Brendan, I believe I can honestly say that. My posts have expressed only my lack of belief in, or need for any organised religion or church. I have never, as far as I can recall, invited anyone to join me, let alone told anyone whet he should or should not believe.

My description of my childhood experiences at one specific Catholic grammar, under the auspices of one specific group of Jesuit brothers, could not, by any stretch of the imagination, be mistaken for a description of ""Catholic schools in the UK"", today or at any other time.

I think very carefuly about how I compose posts and it's disconcerting when they are then taken to mean something someone else would like to respond to.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 09:49 AM

"I repeat. Blasphemy. A victimless crime. Ha bloody ha. "

Blasphemy is not a crime at all and is not immoral.

Fraud is a crime. Lying on an application is fraud. Lying is immoral. You say it is OK to lie? You are immoral. These ideas are not complicated. But these ideas are the foundation or civilization.

I am not exploring ways to have your political views restricted. I am point out that you are being rude and engaging in personal attacks by calling them stupid and silly.

I'm sorry, it may be your view that I am stupid. Though you would have a very very tough time proving that I am stupid compared to you. But you don't have a right to express that view here. You are being allowed some leeway I would assume. But if your abuse of that leeway is pointed out and as your insulting talk continues to become a habit for you, you will probably find your posts restricted or deleted. Why wait for that to happen. Why don't you just cut down on the childish taunts?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 09:51 AM

""I apologize to you Don that I singled you you out. I was irritable at the time and singling you out was wrong.""

No apology required JtS, I've done it meself a time or six.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 09:52 AM

Don T,

I am pretty sure Brendan was talking to Steve Shaw when he said that. Are you sure he was referring to you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 10:26 AM

""If I haven't said it before, I will say now that anything you have to say about music is more interesting than everything you have to say about religion.""

Let's see if i've got this straight Stim.

We post (most of us) aour thoughts and ideas on music above the line, and below the line you want music too?

Doesn't the prefix BS ring any bells then?

Have you not yet managed to figure out that Max deliberately placed this section to take BS away from the music?

Funny how most of those who want to change the way this forum is run post as Guests.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 10:37 AM

Thanks for the kind words Don. I don't think that Stim was aiming those comments with you Don. Pardon me for saying this but you seem to be looking for a fight with someone not looking to fight you. I've done that a time or six myself. I've found the results to be less than satisfying. Good luck to you though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 10:47 AM

I don't think that the vast majority of atheists are being deliberately insulting when they say that somebody who holds a religious point of view is delusional. The crux of the atheist critique is, after all, that religion is a form of superstition. If religious people find that offensive and insulting, it is what the atheist honestly thinks, and, so long as atheists aren't personalizing things it's something religious people have to put up with in a democratic society. For the most part religious people do just that. knowing that they are quite capable of dishing it out as well if they need to - I had a Muslim friend years ago who used to mock my defence of Darwin by calling me a monkey. You can put up with things like that if you know there's no bad intent involved.

"saying you believe in something that isn't based on fact or evidence makes you exactly the same as those who do."
That seems to be saying that a truthful religious person is exactly the same as an atheist who is deliberately telling lies, and that, what atheists have in the past regarded as religious delusion ,is in fact a lie perpetrated by billions of people every day, world wide.Perhaps that is what religious people find offensive - atheists effectively calling them liars ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 11:12 AM

mayomick said:
"Perhaps that is what religious people find offensive - atheists effectively calling them liars ?"

But, surely, Christians are effectively calling Muslims liars because Christianity does not recognise Mohammed as a prophet of God!

Of course, Christians would think twice about stating those beliefs in public!

The truth is that Judaism, Islam and Christianity are - effectively - an insult to each other!

But - most of the time - they tip-toe around that fact!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 11:15 AM

mayomick, You have made my point perfectly.

Mr Dawkins uses the word delusional the same way that your Muslim friend to ridicule you and disrespect you as a partner in the "debate."

The fact is that you are not a monkey and I am not delusional.

Mr. Dawkins is stretching the definition of "delusion." He justifies that by quoting a quip. This is hardly logical scientific reasoning.
Mr. Dawkins is not being any more respectful and honest than your friend. He is going around the world claiming to represent science and logic and reason. I'm guessing your friend didn't claim all of that when he called you a monkey. Kudos to your friend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 11:27 AM

"From: GUEST,Tunesmith - PM
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 11:12 AM

mayomick said:
"Perhaps that is what religious people find offensive - atheists effectively calling them liars ?" "

So, mayomick says something dubious, that makes it so. So pour more dubious comments on that. Is that what is happening?

The only religious person I know who has complained about Dawkins misuse of the word "delusion" is me. I am not offended. I have been making the point that his doing so puts him on an equal footing with those HE is complaining about. Which goes back to the point made in the de Waal article of the original post that some atheists are becoming dogmatic.

You two seem to be making the point that "we atheists are bad, but you religionists are worse. Since that reinforces my point, I don't think that I fundamentally disagree with you. We are just tidying up the details. Thank you sirs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: BrendanB
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 11:39 AM

Don, Jack is right when he says that particular comment was addressed to Steve, not you.   (Irritatingly I used the word 'religion' when I should have used the word 'God' in the question I addressed to Steve, thereby weakening the point I was trying to make.)
I respect your punctilious adherance to a high standard of debate and would not suggest that you would instruct anyone regarding their beliefs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 11:51 AM

Joe, I must respectfully disagree with you when you say that there are Christian children. No child is ever born into the world as automatically a Christian. They have to be taught to believe that way. Also, many of the children that you have cited may probably grow up to leave the Church. Indoctrination is one way that children are controlled.

"No one on this thread has claimed that. The title above is title of the de Waal article on Salon. If you have a problem with it take it up with him."

Jack, I have heard de Waal speak on two occasions and am reading his book, "The Bonobo and the Atheist" and he has never stated that "militant atheism has become a religion". That's not his title. He calls himself as a non-believer, an "apathist" meaning he doesn't care about the issue of whether god exists or not. Please cite the page number of his book where he declares this statement. I would like to see that in context with what he says as well.

Mr. Dawkins, if you ever met him Jack, would be very respectful of you personally. He would not consider you "delusional" in every aspect of your personality. You have yet to prove, however that god is not a delusion. There's no point in demonizing Dawkins for disagreeing with you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 12:11 PM

Hello Sailor!

When reason knocks on the door of an empty house, childish taunts are an effective calling card. However, pointing out that blasphemy is or isn't a crime, however technical, doesn't help. It is a crime in many countries., and as you and I are in different countries, thank Clapton, you should be more careful with your statements. In any case, it is sn example of how in the past religions have had privilege, and the UK state schools farce are an excellent example of political pandering.

I am not immoral any more than you are ugly. I haven't seen your face and you are no judge of my view. You can agree or disagree but if it takes telling a sanctimonious headteacher tthat you believe in fairies to get a good education for your child, the system has an issue, not the parent. I doubt you ever read the licence agreement for software despite clicking that you have done. I have yet to meet anybody who has, although some ruddy pedant here will claim they do.

They are not Christian schools, they have to teach on the basis that all and no religions are part of society. Whether a child has been raised to believe in things that are beyond the laws of physics is irrelevant.

Keith said something about lying for your children. So... when you tell them God exists and he is watching them, that isn't lying then? Increasing their paranoia and making them feel guilty about enjoying life isn't child abuse? telling them what to think instead of teaching them how to think isn't the saddest indictment you can think of?

I love hypocrisy. It teaches me never to get complacent. To always challenge the malign influence of those who advocate restricting others. Those who wish to judge and those whose so called faith is so fragile they think mocking reason is clever.

I'd pray for you but sadly, there is no one to hear it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 12:33 PM

"But, surely, Christians are effectively calling Muslims liars because Christianity does not recognise Mohammed as a prophet of God!"

Not at all it's more like they are calling Muslims mistaken , unenlightened , wrong – delusional if you like!- but not liars . There's a distinction between those who tell an untruth because they're mistaken and those who knowingly tell an untruth.

For example . Somebody above wrote to say that my account of a conversation with an old Muslim friend was "dubious". If I had been making it all up , that would make me a liar. But if I genuinely believed that this conversation had taken place, but was mistaken in my reporting of it , or if my memory of the conversation was only the memory of a dream I once had , that wouldn't make my recounting of the imagined/delusional conversation here a lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 12:37 PM

"Please cite the page number of his book where he declares this statement. I would like to see that in context with what he says as well."

I see an article in Salon with this exact title "Militant atheism has become a religion" with his credit as author.

I haven't been making the claim that "Militant atheism has become a religion" If you had bothered to read the whole thread you would know that I distanced myself and tried to distance de Wall. But he did allow that title to be published in his name. Then you linked to the same article with a similar title making the same claim about Militant atheism. SO IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THOSE WORDS, YOU NEED TO TAKE IT UP WITH HIM and Salon.

I am sorry if it bursts your bubble about Dr de Waal, but that is just the way things are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 12:47 PM

"Perhaps that is what religious people find offensive - atheists effectively calling them liars "

mayomick Please forgive me for expecting you understand that the claim that I had quoted was the "dubious" claim that I was referring to.

Here is is again.

"Perhaps that is what religious people find offensive - atheists effectively calling them liars "

and again.

"Perhaps that is what religious people find offensive - atheists effectively calling them liars "

HERE is an indication that I did not think that your conversation with your Muslim friend was dubious.

>>>mayomick, You have made my point perfectly.

Mr Dawkins uses the word delusional the same way that your Muslim friend to ridicule you and disrespect you as a partner in the "debate." <<<

Do you see that I used that "claim" to reinforce my point? I did! I did because it does. Your Muslim friend was a better man than Dawkins is IMHO.

I am sorry that I was not clear. Do you have any questions? Would you like for me to explain again?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 12:51 PM

"Hello Sailor! " from Musket, the voice of "reason."

Oh yes! The greeting that you said was a joke about male prostitution. please forgive me for reading no further. I just don't see the point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 01:06 PM

Ah yes. When you jumped to a conclusion once. You have to be a reader of The Perishers to have seen the joke at the time and believe me, the male prostitute bit was your construction not mine you idiot.

So... You accept everything I put after hello sailor then? Whether or not you read it, which you did because earlier you were looking for bits to quote out of context, so you do read what I put, I cannot make the mental leap that you understand it.

Your earlier piss poor comments suggest not...

If you want to discuss male prostitutes, pm Akenaton. He seems to have a bottim fixation judging by his continuous reference to male on male sex.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 01:14 PM

"you idiot."

I stopped reading after that.

I hope you don't mind.

Next time I'll probably stop reading after "musket."


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 02:31 PM

Thanks for clearing that up, Jack. My point in mentioning my Muslim friend was that atheists and religious people can argue and still get along. I'm not sure if I used the word "delusion", but I was arguing the general atheist line against Ibrahim at the time - I would certainly have used a word like it . He answered by saying that ,if I imagined I was a monkey , what was the point in arguing with me. "Go away monkey!"

Things have soured over the past ten years , and I'm not sure if I could have the same debates today as I did thirty years ago. Steve's agnostic positions have been politely expressed as far as I can see , and I don't think they would have evoked such a hostile reaction here ten years ago . But Steve is wrong to think that there is no such thing as a new militant atheism out there that is goading religious people , getting their backs up . The same atheists that published the anti- Islam Danish cartoons in 2005 in Ireland in the name of toleration , a few years later started organizing crucifixion parties on Good Friday - again in the name of toleration . Some of the images they published last year were worse than the ones on the indymedia site here:


http://www.indymedia.ie/article/99569?search_text=crucifixion%20party&userlanguage=ga&save_prefs=true


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 03:19 PM

My Dad used to say that he didn't believe in evolution because he isn't a monkey.

I explained to him that he isn't. He accepted the explanation and reinforced the idea that he did not come from a monkey.

I believe that evolution is the probable origin of man and that the bible stories are allegory. I don't call my dad "delusional" to bully him out of his beliefs. Even if I thought that, it wouldn't be polite would it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 03:25 PM

My Dad used to say that "you should not search back too far in your family history, because you may find you are closely related to a monkey". :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 03:27 PM

We are going to have to disagree about whether Steve has been polite. Thank you for you perspective on "new militant atheism out there that is goading religious people , getting their backs up "

I think that the biggest problem is not between Atheists & Christians. It is between Atheist agitators, and Muslims and good people of all creeds that dislike bigotry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 03:48 PM

I would say amen to that Jack, but , you know......mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 04:06 PM

Your dad made a good point Ed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 04:35 PM

""Don T,

I am pretty sure Brendan was talking to Steve Shaw when he said that. Are you sure he was referring to you?""

You are absoutely correct and once more I apoogise to Brendan. I lokked at what appeared a single paragraph, and saw my name midway down, then made an unwarranted assumption, not looking at the name at the top.

I think this throat infection and the meds are causing brain fade.

Perhaps I ought to take a break, but when your breathing is so bad tha you can't lay down for too long, there's bugger all else to do. Tapping a keyboard is the only thing that doesn't make me breathless at the moment.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 05:03 PM

I empathize Don. My eyes have been hurting. Its made me cranky.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 10:07 PM

Things have soured over the past ten years , and I'm not sure if I could have the same debates today as I did thirty years ago. Steve's agnostic positions have been politely expressed as far as I can see , and I don't think they would have evoked such a hostile reaction here ten years ago . But Steve is wrong to think that there is no such thing as a new militant atheism out there that is goading religious people , getting their backs up . The same atheists that published the anti- Islam Danish cartoons in 2005 in Ireland in the name of toleration , a few years later started organizing crucifixion parties on Good Friday - again in the name of toleration.

If there is a brand of atheism that gets its oxygen from goading, then I distance myself from it. Likewise, those bloody idiots who thought it was a great idea to publish those cartoons are not in my camp. A good atheist is not interested in demonising. A good atheist is only interested in saying that their particular stance is predicated on their understanding of the evidence for and against the existence of God. As God can never be either proved nor disproved, all any of us have is evidence. It's down to you whether you accept tradition, witness, hearsay, edicts, visions and the sayings of holy men as evidence, or whether you set the bar higher. In the latter case, no "evidence" ever makes it and never will. That does not disprove God, but it makes rational people see that the likelihood of his existence is so small as to be completely inconsequential.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 07 Apr 13 - 03:31 AM

'Good people of all creeds who dislike bigotry'

Good coffee drinkers who dislike caffeine?

I'll tell you this Jack, you occasionally give good entertainment value if nothing else.

Still not up to debating my earlier points? never mind, far better than making you look an even bigger arse.

(Just think, this time you have the whole message to get through before I name call you. If ever you get as far as debating rather than pontificating, we might even get bloody progress. ..)


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Apr 13 - 06:39 PM

I did read to the end Musket!

Not technically ... I only read to the "arse"

LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Apr 13 - 09:00 PM

There have always been many different atheists without monolithic views. There will always be pushy Christians (called evangelists), Muslims, Jews, Buddhists etc. Militant atheism just means that instead of hiding their convictions, they are expressing them and offending all who are not atheists. Some are obnoxious as are some Christians, Muslims, Jews etc.

There are varying degrees of so-called militancy. Not all are obnoxious but adamant in their view that atheists should not be attacked because they don't believe. No atheist can hold a public office in the US today. That is an attack on civil liberties. Kids in high schools are vilified and cornered by their high school principals.

Going after atheists for their views is great sport among certain pushy religious people who use the "militant atheist" epithet to silence opposing views to their own.

If atheism is a religion then why not offer the same tolerance toward it as toward any other religion (of course I don't think it is a religion).

There is a good point to be made that many new "born again" atheists are still clinging to the religion that they once held but this is not true of every non-believer.

Dogmatism on any level is abhorrent, religious or not. Still, "militant atheism" is a term that is used like "anti-Semitism" today, to silence rather than open a discussion. "Islamophobia" is another one. "Terrorist"....another. It used to be "communist".


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 04:09 AM

" Militant atheism just means that instead of hiding their convictions, they are expressing them and offending all who are not atheists. "

You are making progress. all week you have been saying that there is no such thing as Militant atheism.

""militant atheism" is a term that is used like "anti-Semitism" today, to silence rather than open a discussion. "

I am curious as to who has been doing this. I posted an article with the term in the title by one of your favorite authors to open a discussion about it. Who has been using it to silence people?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 04:38 AM

Some atheists are 'militant', some just want to get on with their lives. So what else is new? I would imagine that Dawkins, who published a book with what was surely intended to be a provocative title, would admit to being, if not a 'militant', at least a proselytising atheist.

Myself? Sometimes the one, sometimes the other ~~ matter of such variables as mood, occasion, atmosphere, opportunity, degree of acquaintance... I am probably being a bit 'militant' on this thread; but that's what this forum is for, isn't it?

It's not a new phenomenon. Shelley was sent down from University College Oxford in 1811 for writing & publishing, and placing in all the local bookshops, a pamphlet called The Necessity Of Atheism.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 05:13 AM

I see nothing wrong with militant atheism. IMHO people are entitled to their opinions.

The article simply makes the point that some militant atheists have become dogmatic. I certainly think that Mr. Dawkins has dogma and I think I have seen some of that dogma has spread to this forum. I am not even saying that having dogma is a bad thing. I gladly defend Mr. Dawkins right to his dogma even though I agree with almost none of it and I certainly dislike his approach.

What puzzles me is the denial that the dogma the defense by Mr Shaw and others, with arguments similar to "there is no atheist dogma" (even though both Dawkins and Shaw are not atheists by their own definitions), It all science and reason blah blah blah.

I say that in the very interesting article at the beginning of this thread that equally disses Christian and Atheist dogma, written by the atheist Frans de Waal, the point is well made that militant atheists have dogma. But I think it falls far short of making the case that militant atheism is a religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 06:53 AM

One of the classic hallmarks of dogma is intolerance of those who believe differently than the speaker. This is often shown by attacking others' beliefs.

On this score, quite a few Mudcat atheists fit the bill far better than Mudcat religious believers.    Mudcat believers are far more willing to live and let live than many Mudcat atheists are.

If by some chance somebody disagrees with this assessment, I'lll be glad to provide (more) chapter and verse.

As I've noted before, I am not religious--just interested in fair play for those who are. Which, I observe, is not a major concern of many Mudcat atheists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 10:48 AM

Frans de Waal is a non-believer. He is an "apathist" by his own definition and declares he doesn't care about whether a god exists or not.

Ron, I think you would have to provide chapter and verse on your criticism. I see brickbats being thrown on both sides of an argument that has never been clarified for if it were, there wouldn't be so many brickbats being thrown around like you just did by your accusation about some on Mudcat.

"Fair play" is in the eye of the beholder. There is a reason why religion is being held under scrutiny today and it's because it hasn't historically provided fair play for everyone. This causes some to react emotionally and perhaps not with clear communication. But there are reasons for these reactions that need to be explored.

"Militant atheism" is a canard that is used as a brickbat to stifle the concerns of those who hold non-belief. It is an attempt to stifle and tell others to shut up. The purpose of any discussion is not to stifle those with whom we disagree but to bring out in the open the concerns of different points of view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 01:14 PM

Is shaving your head a hairstyle?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 02:48 PM

"I see nothing wrong with militant atheism."
You still haven't explained "militant atheism" beyond a little name-calling, which you and your fellow theists have indulged in in spades.
You protested "conspiracy theory" when I suggested you had opened several threads so you could hop from one to another to avoid awkward questions, yet this is exactly what you are doing.
You asked me a number of questions on the 'atheist' and have studiously avoided my answers, which I have put below.
I know many Christians who pride themselves in their honesty; as you have made a point of accusing others of being dishonest why are you behaving so underhandedly?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 03:30 AM

"I have seen Atheists say that if you believe in God you are stupid and mentally ill."
Pretty small stuff compared to a lifelong of brainwashing from the day you begin to think and speak. Some sort of hard words are to be expected by somebody who climbs into the minds of our children and, using fear and coercion implants an irrational doctrine there that has been passed down the millenia.
"I think "lets work together in peace"
With who exactly, Atheists and believers, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, all Christians....?
Inter-religious dispute has been and continues to be one of the great causes of hatred and a major threat to world peace on this planet - not much signs of lions lying down with lambs there.
Sounds to me as if you are mustering your forces for a 'last battle' in a war you are losing.
In my lifetime Christian churches have climbed into bed with some of the greatest monsters in history, Hitler, Mussolini, Pinochet, Salazar, Franco, Papandreou, Videla, Massera, Agosti......
"Did the C of E say "if you don't go to church you'll. (go to Hell or whatever?)"
Now your talking brand-names - the threat of hell and eternal damnation is part and parcel of every religion - sometimes it comes wrapped in a velvet glove, sometimes it is presented in all its magnificence.
"You are a real piece of work."
Not a bad "piece of work" yourself.
Evasion is the most common form of lying on all these threads and you have proved yourself a master of the art. You have not addressed once the effect of implanting myths and legends as facts into the minds of children, you have skirted around the behaviour of the church towards the faithful, particularly and most horrifically children, (hinting darkly 'it was them wot dunnit' "Did the C of E say....") - a form of inter-religious one-upmanship that continues to infest our lives, and you have whined at being called a few names at a time when the world is torn apart and threatened with extinction by inter-religious disputes.
You are not the victims here, and to claim you are is the greatest lie of all.
Whatever failings they may have, Dawkins and co have my gratitude for their robust attempts they are making to break the stranglehold of religion - I hope I live to see it, but I'll probably toasting my feet on the hobs of hell you have invented to terrorise people into submissive obedience.
Why not surprise us and answer some of the serious aspects of religion rather than dodging behind unfounded accusations of 'bullying' and 'persecution'.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 03:10 PM

Is shaving your head a hairstyle?

Of course it is!

Minimalist coiffure!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 03:10 PM

""Is shaving your head a hairstyle""?


Well, yes, especially if it is a Mohawk, also referred to as a mohican or an "Iro"- (even though, historically the hair was plucked out rather than shaved)


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 03:30 PM

i suppose it depends on how "attack anothers belief" is defined.if not believing that anothers position is correct and true,then the whole spectrum of posters,or near all of us,are "attacking" anothers beliefs.if on the other hand it is more narrowly defined as verbal abuse,mockery,belittling,accusations of lying of persons, etc,i suspect that a detailed survey of posts would confirm ron davis opinion,an opinion he ventured without any of the negative traits outlined above.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 03:51 PM

Ok. I shall make a contribution based on giving my perspective on Pete's contribution above.

There is a huge difference between attacking a belief and attacking a position. The issue here is whether you see no belief as a belief. Compounded to that is the issue of arbitrary belief in the metaphysical being put forward as a hypothesis for gaps in scientific understanding for no reason other than an interpretation of ancient stories.

It's apples and pears. ..


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 04:21 PM

All the ills of the world have to be somebody's fault, don't they Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 05:14 PM

"The issue here is whether you see no belief as a belief. "

The issue here is whether one is suffering from the delusion that in these discussions it is possible to have "no belief." Dawkins, your hero is not so arrogant as to say that he is free of beliefs. That he is absolutely on firm logical ground. He simply says that he BELIEVES that the probability of him being wrong is very small. He uses a joke by Douglas Adams to illustrate this.

The Dogma that Musket (or whichever of our more arrogant Mudcat Atheists happens to be speaking at the time) is a creature of logic while "believers" are bound by their beliefs has been thoroughly debunked in these threads. They have been shown to fall far short of "Spock-like" logic as Dawkins

The apparent fact that he clings to his delusion that he is talking logically is an indication of the power of the Dogma.

pete and Rob Naylor are having an adult conversation. They are exchanging information that they have gathered with the goal of enlightening and persuading. Perhaps you have information to contribute Musket. I think it would be much


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 05:22 PM

Guest,

I think, I hope, that Jim is just blowing off some over due steam. He is IMHO for the most part blaming the people responsible, the Nuns Priests, Bishops and Popes who condoned and conducted the wrongdoing. The spillover to other religions and even to me is understandable. His experience and Ebbie's and mine are very different. I haven't seen a dark side of religion that is nearly that dark. I wish I could say more about those topics but I don't have the knowledge or experience. I guess I am grateful that I don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 06:39 PM

an-open-letter-to-the-church-from-my-generation


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 04:43 AM

Hello Sailor!

You say that pete is having an adult conversation. Is this the same pete who thinks the earth is young because the Bible is a better judge than scientific discovery? Poor bloody dinosaurs, first they get wiped out physically then they get wiped out metaphorically.

Dawkins isn't my hero, you are. I doubt he could ever argue bollocks so succinctly. I suppose the only thing worse than claiming you are consistently logical is having some idiot accusing you of being so. Strange logic indeed. Especially my firm belief that Sheffield Wednesday are the greatest football team ever. I doubt logic would support my stance nor influence my belief.

You haven't thought your insults through have you? Never mind, nobody seems to take you seriously. The main difference between us being I have no desire to be taken seriously. Im having a laugh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 07:36 AM

Musket. People can have an adult conversation as long as they respect one another and present their opinions honestly.

Name calling, taunting, ridicule, admitting that you have no reason to be honest, all things you have done on this one thread thread, have no place in adult conversation. Did I read you saying you are better in real life? I hope so.

"Poor bloody dinosaurs, first they get wiped out physically then they get wiped out metaphorically. "

Knowing about dinosaurs, believing in dinosaurs, doesn't make you and adult. Three year old children believe in dinosaurs. Two year old Christian Children think Dinosaurs think they are purple and can sing.

You think you know more scientific fact than pete. Unless he is very modest, perhaps you do. But that does not necessarily make you smarter. It certainly doesn't make you wiser. And everyone on this thread, probably on this forum knows whose behavior is more adult.

As an illustration of the comparison between you and pete in terms of varied intellectual talents. I offer this cartoon. I'm pretty sure that you are the monkey. Which animal pete is does not matter.

Monkey Musket


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 09:31 AM

A bit deep if you ask me.

I prefer it on the other thread where you get curious as to whether I commit adultery with a chicken.

The Albert quote by the way is one I have been known to use in my real life. Believing in dinosaurs is however a bit like believing in my ability to scratch my arse. You quote pete as being enlightening. Clapton help us. If that bugger had his way, fairy tales would be taught at the level of science and if that isn't child abuse, I fail to see what is. Perhaps you should have a read of the young age creationist thread before you choose your mates. He and his mates are trying to hold back our understanding. Humans evolve the same as any other fauna or flora, and superstition is playing its last dodo encore.

If you want an adult conversation, I suggest you first do the following;

1. Find out what BS means as a prefix for these threads.

2. Find out what an adult is.

3. Set out an action plan for becoming one.

I don't even pretend to know more about science than pete. However, I have yet to post a thread displaying contempt for how "science" derives its data. Nor have I pounced on an irregularity and tried filling the gap with my imaginary friend. So on balance, I may not know more or less than him but I doubt I am shredding my PhD thesis just yet.

(On the subject of science versus fantasy, that's a thought. A central plank of my thesis is based on a hypothesis that has since been revised. If I had written about theology rather than physics, I would have been able to argue my theory still stood. Hence the contempt rational people have for fantasy dressed as fact.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 07:49 AM

As I've noted, I have no dog in this fight.   I have no idea of the truth or falsehood of any religion. Neither, by the way--- despite the more-rational-than-thou stance of Mr. Shaw, Musket, and other stalwarts who attack religion and the religious--do they.   

It's however possibly of interest that the some of the same arguments they use to discredit Catholics and Catholicism, especially sexual abuse by some priests, were used by the Nazis circa 1935-36 in Germany---for exactly the same purpose.

Does that make Mr. Shaw, Musket, et al. Nazis?    Somehow I doubt it.   But the approach is, intriguingly, precisely the same.

And it is just as fair to blame all or most atheists, or atheism, for the Nazi attacks on religion (or those by Stalin and Mao) as to blame all or most Catholics, or Catholicism, for sexual abuse by some priests.


Gee, I wonder what kind of response this news will get.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 08:34 AM

"that some of the same"


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 08:43 AM

Mudcat believers are far more willing to live and let live than many Mudcat atheists are.

Ah, that old chestnut. Well, a believer who truly "lives and lets live" has two hoops to jump through. First, do they conduct their personal religious affairs in private, or do they subscribe to loud-mouthed organisations that have bishops on every other news bulletin and religion advertised large all over our streets and towns? Second, do they let their children "live and let live" by waiting until they are old enough to understand, or do they start to indoctrinate them while they're still toddlers with baby Jesus and firm it up from there all through their childhood? I'm afraid there are plenty who complain that they should be allowed to live and let live who fail both these tests.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 09:26 AM

""Ali Razeghi, a Tehran scientist has registered "The Aryayek Time Traveling Machine" with the state-run Centre for Strategic Inventions"".

And, some thought it was impossible:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 10:17 AM

Mr. Shaw and Mr. Musket are certainly outside the main stream. "Live and let live" is very unlikely in a world where they are telling others how to raise their kids.

Though it is a testament to the power of Mr. Dawkins Dogma.

" First, do they conduct their personal religious affairs in private, or do they subscribe to loud-mouthed organisations that have bishops "

This is a another novel line in the sand. My affairs aren't private if a bishop goes on TV?

Its pretty clear that Shaw and Musket have issues far beyond religion. Earlier in this thread Musket said he felt free to say things here that he could not say in real life. He called it being "honest."

Perhaps such honesty should be confined to the office of a licensed professional where sedatives can be introduced when it gets out of hand. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 11:43 AM

Mr. Shaw and Mr. Musket are certainly outside the main stream. "Live and let live" is very unlikely in a world where they are telling others how to raise their kids.

Gosh, no-one's telling anyone how to educate their kids in matters religious (er, slightly different from "raise", but we can let that pass). Just saying that if you wish to define yourself as live-and-let-live, in other words, presumably, not evangelising and indoctrinating people, one would logically expect that to extend to their children as well. If you send your kids to schools which make them bow their heads in praise of or in supplication to a fellow who might not exist, with prayers and hymns expressing unsupported certainties about him, and tell them that it's disrespectful at best and sinful at worst to demur, you're hardly practising a philosophy of live and let live with them, are you?

" First, do they conduct their personal religious affairs in private, or do they subscribe to loud-mouthed organisations that have bishops"

My affairs aren't private if a bishop goes on TV?


A beautifully disingenuous conflation there. Heheh. At least you were honest enough to include the original to show us all what a clot you can be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 12:38 PM

(live and let live) in other words, presumably, not evangelising and indoctrinating people,

In whose other words? Are you that stupid? No you can't be. Someone has given you access to a computer.

You can't practice "live and let live with your children" You can't be that much of a moron. You have to be playing the Monty Python argument game!

The conflation my dear man was with living privately and "loud mouthed bishops"

More Pythonesque humour I presume?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 01:00 PM

Read all about it!

Atheists can be spotted by their ability to tell people how to raise kids. Sailor spills the beans!

You know, that's a bit rich making a mental leap from my comment that my eldest paid me the compliment of saying I taught him how to think rather than what to think. Your observation about people's ability to be more forthright in forums than in real company meaning you question my honesty is a little beyond reason but no matter. After all, the object of the exercise is to identify atheism as a Creed so you can sanctimoniously denigrate it as a lesser belief than your own.

Well I've got news for you. You've failed.

On a more positive note for you, you prefaced this thread by stating your thesis (sic) has a hypothesis that states the more aggressive towards religion you are, the more strict your religious upbringing.

As you keep using me as an example of outside of mainstream I can inform you that to my knowledge I am not unique and have never had religion nor a religious upbringing. My parents did but saw the folly of inflicting it on us.

I suspect there are more people than ever in the same boat. When my granddaughter is christened soon it will be tradition and family event rather than taking any interest in what the vicar is actually saying. Churches tend to delude themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 01:13 PM

My! but you are thick Musket. I said that you two are "outside the main stream" because you do it. You two don't do that because you are atheists. You do it because you are so in love with your own opinions and insults that you have no idea how stupid they sound.

You both are like the vendor in the Parrot shop sketch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 01:37 PM

Yes. British.

Although Michael Palin is a far nicer person than me.

If you must quote out of context, try to fit in the bits where I state I do not see myself as an atheist. Plenty out there. Irreligious yes but atheist is a term others use not me. I don't describe myself as such. In fact I nod appreciatively at the comment Einstein said on the matter.

A huge difference between being aggressive and taunting sailors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 02:32 PM

CD!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 02:46 PM

>>>If you must quote out of context, try to fit in the bits where I state I do not see myself as an atheist.<<<

It is not the one or two times you have said that that gets to the truth of the matter it is all the time that you inadvertently admit to being an atheist.

>>>Atheists can be spotted by their ability to tell people how to raise kids.<<<<

I say that you and Steve are trying to tell people how to raise their kids. You generalize that to all atheists and include yourself.

YOU brought up the term atheist in this thread. You and Steve have been doing this all along in many of the threads, where I have been trying to stick to "Neo-atheist, New-atheist or Dawkins, Mr Shaw and Musket.

>>where I state I do not see myself as an atheist<< you haven't been paying close attention, I've implied that the three of you are hypocrites for doing this a few times.

Put is this way. If it walks like an atheist, it talks like an atheist, it defends the idea of being an atheist and it takes it personally when atheists are insulted....


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 04:38 PM

Having read Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, and Dennett it is my opinion that the only major thing that they have in common is wanting to protect their ability to speak their minds on this subject. When they do this, however, they are charged with being "militant" because religious people have been telling non-believers for years to just shut up. Those days are gone.

A religion has to have adherents that fundamentally agree on many points. Atheists don't do that. They think for themselves. I think this is an ideal goal in raising children. There may be some atheists who try to indoctrinate their children with their ideas, but this is not the usual case. Some atheists have gone so far as to allow their children to go to Sunday School just to see what it is or to take them to a church service for their education.

"Militant" is used as a pejorative that means angry or aggressive. The two terms are not necessarily together in meaning. One can be aggressive without rancor but the idea to use "militant" is a device to discredit atheists and their respective non-belief.

Even if Atheism were a religion (which it is not) hypothetically, it would have encountered the most vicious form of religious intolerance equivalent to Mosque burning, Temple desecration or Sikh shooting. For this reason, I am thankful that atheism is not a religion although there are too many religious fanatics that treat it this way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 08:40 PM

A religion has to have adherents that fundamentally agree on many points. Atheists don't do that. They think for themselves. I think this is an ideal goal in raising children. There may be some atheists who try to indoctrinate their children with their ideas, but this is not the usual case. Some atheists have gone so far as to allow their children to go to Sunday School just to see what it is or to take them to a church service for their education.

Agreed. also, any "atheist" who tries to indoctrinate their children with their notions is not an atheist. There can be be no certainty in atheism (unlike religion), so indoctrination is not an option. Our children went to schools which were not faith schools but which abided by the law of the land in providing acts of "daily worship". We could have withdrawn our kids from those lessons, but we thought it far better to let them not stand out from the crowd (no-one else withdrew their kids) and provide the counterbalance at home. They are, now in their thirties, both free thinkers and both are atheists with no pressure whatsoever from us. I tend to think that they're the lucky ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 09:11 PM

"A religion has to have adherents that fundamentally agree on many points. Atheists don't do that."

You two are doing that now!

LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: olddude
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 09:17 PM

Strings
until I got pissed off a little while ago and started an atheist thread, it was no person of faith that told anyone here how to believe or what to believe. The never ending attacks on faith here in mudcat is coming from a few atheists. And in fact are trying to tell others what they can believe or not believe. It is the exact opposite as what you just said. Now as far as my rights to speech, atheism is indeed a religion to many. They want to try and tell others what they can and cannot say. I am no religious zealot. But religious zealots too can speak their opinions and not just atheists as some would love to see happen. Freedom of speech does indeed go both ways


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 02:38 AM

I seem to be lumped into some virtual gang that is attacking religion. Sorry old dude, I can't see many examples of that. From anyone.

Now.. attacking the idea that religion has a place in society at large I will question. Attacking the idea that somebody's delusion should have an effect on me I will question. Being told my concerns are straw men I will question. Seeing religious privilege masquerading as religiosity freedom I will question.

When I call it nonsense and refer to imaginary friends and comfort blankets, when I point out the bizarre sense of justification it gives to controlling others, when I see it getting legal rights here in The UK to subjugate women and gay people, when I point outthat the little boy has a point and I too fail to see clothes on the emperor. I am expressing an opinion.

So when my opinion is given labels in order to either scorn or pity, it doesn't exactly make me wonder if I may be wrong in some way. I often alter my view on matters after debate, in fact I see it as part of my professional life, but the fascination with seeing lackof bbelief as a belief says more about the instability of faith than it does about rational thought.

Live and let live. Something the door knockers and Lords Spiritual haven't quite got the hang of.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 09:11 AM

The never ending attacks on faith here in mudcat is coming from a few atheists. And in fact are trying to tell others what they can believe or not believe.

Find me one example, with quote please, of any atheist here "telling" people what they can or can't believe. Go on, you have acres of threads to choose from. It should be plenty easy enough for you to support this assertion of yours. Go on - put up or...

Now as far as my rights to speech, atheism is indeed a religion to many.

Well, apart from your sentence containing a classic non-sequitur, we've been over (and debunked comprehensively) the myth of atheism being "a religion" so many times. Bringing it up in this manner yet again is nothing more than a lazy, cheap shot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 09:20 AM

Incidentally, if you really want to find people who tell people what to believe, you'll find them in droves the world over in churches, synagogues, mosques and faith schools. Telling you to believe that myth is truth and you'd better not argue. Starting, unfailingly, with tiny children far too young to understand what they are being told to believe (catch 'em young, eh, or don't catch 'em at all...?). It's actually laughable that a Christian should be accusing atheists that it's us who perpetrate anything near equivalent to this egregiously immoral activity. Cast out the beam, say I.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 10:48 AM

"Pride is pleasure arising from a man's thinking too highly of himself."

"Further conceive, I beg, that a stone, while continuing in motion, should be capable of thinking and knowing, that it is endeavoring, as far as it can, to continue to move. Such a stone, being conscious merely of its own endeavor and not at all indifferent, would believe itself to be completely free, and would think that it continued in motion solely because of its own wish. This is that human freedom, which all boast that they possess, and which consists solely in the fact, that men are conscious of their own desire, but are ignorant of the causes whereby that desire has been determined."

Both quotes, Baruch Spinoza


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 02:47 PM

Mayomick when you say "I'm not sure if I could have the same debates today as I did thirty years ago." I think this may be true. You can see the insults and brickbats that have flown on this discussion already.

Musket, excellent point. "but the fascination with seeing lack of belief as a belief says more about the instability of faith than it does about rational thought."

It is absolutely delusional which is a by-product of a shaky "faith". It's because those accusations reflect a need to verify that "faith" by the folks who make them. Shakespeare said, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." which has been changed to "Methinks thou dost protest too much" to refer to those on a soap box whose actions belie their intended claims and try too hard to convince others that they are right. It backfires in most cases.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 07:34 PM

I suppose I could have posted this in one of the Maggie threads, but it contains much that is relevant here. I apologise for my lack of ability to do proper links on this website. You'll just have to copy and paste.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2013/apr/12/margaret-thatcher-doubt-wimps-human

Giles Fraser, a man of the cloth par excellence, is one of the very few believers who consistently expresses his faith in a way I can truly respect. This is an excellent article, scathing about Thatcher's apparent religious certainties and explicit about how true faith cannot have certainties. An awful lot of religion's millions of proselytisers could learn much from him. Here's an excoriating analysis of Thatcher faith, and, unfortunately, it's a brand of faith that is all too common and which is grist to the mill of the Dawkinses (and Shaws, Jack) of this world:

For her, Christianity was all about being on the side of what is right. It was a moralistic version of Christianity that, when crossed with a Samuel Smiles philosophy of self-help, would inoculate her against doubt and criticism. Thus she wore her indifference to objection as a badge of pride. That was what she meant by faith.

And how about this for a novel and focussed definition of faith that will prickle a believer or two:

But what she never appreciated was that faith is fundamentally bound up with doubt. Faith strains to imagine a world so much more expansive than the measure of our own minds and convictions. This is why faith is always a certain sort of loss, the failure to comprehend things in their totality. Faith is the confession of a failed atheism, the suspicion of a constant remainder to the neat equations of life. It begins with an ineradicable "I do not know", continually straining to make raids into this unknowable, continually returning with the wisdom gained by another fresh defeat.

But read the thing. It isn't long, and I have no wish to be accused of quoting out of context.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 11:42 AM

Dan, I didn't get that atheists were telling anyone how to think. That's an impossibility.
They were criticizing religion with an attempt at logic in their diagnosis. Sometimes, this is unachievable but attacking someone's faith is impossible as long as those who proclaim it are really devout and sincere. Then, instead of reacting in a violent way, they should merely shrug their shoulders and say "that's your opinion" instead going after them because their feelings were hurt.

The idea that atheism has become a religion doesn't make sense because you can't be religious and non-religious at the same time. It's an oxymoron.

"Atheists" is probably not the best term to describe non-belief. They (atheists?) may agree on many points but not all in the absolutist sense that many religionists do. They don't have a bible, koran, torah, baghavad ghita or any holy book upon with which to base their ideas. Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Dennett, Rand, Marx or anyone else who uses the term to define their point of view of non-belief represent no great community of "believers" as do the adherents to religion. To say otherwise is a distorted lie.

It's true that Ayn Rand has a coterie. Marx through Lenin established a government but both are reputed "atheists" and they don't agree on anything. It's only because new ideas about the negative aspects of religion are being revealed, not by "prophecy" but by individuals who write books on the subject that these ideas engender hostility instead of consideration, acceptance or rejection.

I will always respect and admire people who are kind, socially conscious, not given to picking fights, open to ideas for examination and reflect the loving that Christians often preach about but never practice. That is very much in evidence here on Mudcat.

The insults and brickbats in the final analysis are meaningless. As Joe Offer said, it's how you behave in society, what you do to improve society, how you act in your personal life and as EdT implied, how you are not just tolerant but understanding of another's point of view, but I add, not having to agree with it and be able to express that disagreement in a logical, communicative and forthright way, this is more important then wound licking because someone disagrees with your ideas.

As I said, before, talk is cheap. To walk the walk is harder but ultimately the most important.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 05:36 PM

" Freedom of speech does indeed go both ways." I agree Dan and I hope that the ensuing discussions will honor that fact. I am not going to tell anyone what to believe. That's an "inalienable right" in our US Constitution. Remember Dan, when we discuss ideas, ideologies or religion or non-religion this (at least on my part) is not an attempt to disrespect anyone personally. I try to stick to the issue and not insult someone who doesn't agree with me. That's the only rational way to have a conversation.

There are those who react emotionally, passionately and take things personally. The preferred way to discuss in my opinion is to try to see the other's point-of-view and discuss that without insults, invectives or hurt feelings. Only then, can you have an adult conversation.

The problem with America today is that the art of conversing this way has become an endangered species. People don't know how to talk to one another anymore. Because of the political climate we live in we have "talking points" where pundits are trying to keep score rather than understand another's point of view. They act as a model on discourse because so many people see this on TV talk shows and pseudo news broadcasts.

So essentially, I agree with you Dan and would rather generate light than heat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 06:21 PM

Not so fast there sir! You can't use the lack of a book to follow as a difference.

They don't have a bible, koran, torah, baghavad ghita or any holy book upon with which to base their ideas. Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Dennett, Rand, Marx

Dawkins followers have "The God Delusion"
Hitchen's "God is not Great"
Rand "Altas Shrugged", "The Fountainhead" and a number of "non-fiction" polemics
Marx-the Communist Manifesto and enough writings on Communism to fill a small library.

I know Harris and Dennett have books. I just don't know what the names are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 06:49 PM

"There are those who react emotionally, passionately and take things personally. The preferred way to discuss in my opinion is to try to see the other's point-of-view and discuss that without insults, invectives or hurt feelings. Only then, can you have an adult conversation."

OK Stringsinger, It is my point of view that when you repeat things like

"God is a delusion", "
"Faith can be very very dangerous, and deliberately to implant it into the vulnerable mind of an innocent child is a grievous wrong."

you are insulting a group to which you know I belong, you know Dan belongs to that group as well, and therefor you are insulting me (and Dan)

In my opinion this whole thread has been about whether The new atheists and two people on this forum are being intentionally insulting when you say those things.

I refuse to have a conversation with you ABOUT RELIGION if you are in accord with those two statements. I believe they are childish, insulting and semantically wrong.

Those two statements are in my opinion, the foundation of fundamentalist atheism. They are Richard Dawkins' dogma and not moderate in any way.

My question to you is simple do you accept Dawkins' dogma or do you want as you put it "an adult conversation?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 09:18 PM

OK Stringsinger, It is my point of view that when you repeat things like

"God is a delusion", "
"Faith can be very very dangerous, and deliberately to implant it into the vulnerable mind of an innocent child is a grievous wrong."

you are insulting a group to which you know I belong, you know Dan belongs to that group as well, and therefor you are insulting me (and Dan)


Hmm. Well Stringsinger is a far less abrasive fellow than I am, and it's my bet that he never sets out to insult anyone. However, he speaks truthfully when he says that it is wrong to implant faith in the mind of a child. Let me put these questions to you, and to anyone else who thinks it's fine to bring up children in your particular faith:

*Do you not accept that your child is born into your religion by nothing more than accident of birth?

*Do you think that a tiny child can possibly understand the complexities and the implications of the religion you are bringing him up in?

*Do you think that your religion is the one true religion?...

*...If not, what gives you the right to bring up your child in your particular religion and not another one?...

*...if so, on what do you base your certainty (taking into account that inconvenient accident of birth) that you are right to indoctrinate your child (bearing in mind that indoctrination relies on the certainty you appear to possess)?

*Why do you not simply satisfy yourself that education (in the true sense of the word) in comparative religion and the history of religion is perfectly sufficient for your child until he reaches an age at which he can decide to accept, or reject, your particular faith of choice? What are you afraid of?

*Did you have your child christened? If so, how do you justify that? And how do you feel about having a child that was a "Christian child" from the time when they couldn't yet speak, think or even focus their eyes? Was that really fair? Why didn't you wait until they were old enough to decide whether they wanted to be a Jew, a Muslim, a Buddhist, or none of the above? What's your excuse? And again, what were you afraid of?

*Did you send your child to a faith school at which you knew they would be herded off to services and force-fed prayers and hymns containing certainties about what might very well be no more than myths? If so, why did you choose that school and not a school with proper secular values?

*Can you, in all conscience, making every effort to be honest and true to yourself, fail to confront a single one of these questions?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 10:20 PM

It is the parent's responsibility to raise the children Mr. Shaw. Children WANT to emulate their parents.
It would be pretty alienating, I think if the parents were devout and hired a babysitter when they went to church.

*...If not, what gives you the right to bring up your child in your particular religion and not another one?

Because it is YOUR RELIGION AND YOUR Child. It is your right and responsibility. That's what Joe told you he did. He told you his kids turned out OK. How would a Christian parent even know how to raise a Hindu? Not to mention that the child might not even feel he belongs in the family.

And are you suggesting that Atheist parents sent their kids to Sunday School to see what "other religions" are out there or are do you just want to tell Christians how to raise their kids?

What gives YOU the right to tell other people how to raise their kids?

You do not appear to see our society for what it is. Would you seriously impose this on people? Would you say this to a young mother. How are you different from a protester in front of an abortion clinic? Are you LESS dogmatic? Are you less shrill? Are you less pushy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 12:49 AM

Amen, Jack.   It appears you have Mr. Shaw well pegged.    "less shrill" is a nice touch.

Isn't it good to know that Mr. Shaw, the soul of tolerance and good feeling, will no doubt just let the thread die now without any retort?

We should all try to emulate his calm even-handedness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:33 AM

"Marx-the Communist Manifesto and enough writings on Communism to fill a small library."
Marxism is not a religion, it is a socio/economic/politico/ theory, and to describe it otherwise is a typical lie of those who would continue with the practice of the enforced teaching of children by men and women of doubtful repute.
In the "small library's" worth of Marxist literature, religion features very small.      
The oft-quoted "opium of the people" was intended for the introduction of a work by Marx, 'A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right'; which was actually never written - the introduction alone was published in 1844 in Marx's own journal.
It is an continuing lie claim Marxism as "a religion", and it is a total distortion of the facts to say that Marx or any major writer devoted anything but a passing mention to religion other than as a tool of oppression.
On the other hand, the last Tzar of Russia, at the height of his power was heavily influenced by an insane Christian monk who is regarded by many in modern non-Communist Russia as saintly.

"Grigori Yefimovich Rasputin (Russian: Григорий Ефимович Распутин; IPA: [ɡrʲɪˈɡorʲɪj jɪˈfʲiməvʲɪtɕ rɐˈsputʲɪn]) (22 January [O.S. 10 January] 1869 – 29 or 30 December [O.S. 16 December] 1916) was a Russian mystic and advisor to the Romanovs, the Russian Imperial family. He was never officially connected to the Orthodox Church but considered a "strannik" (or pilgrim) wandering from cloister to cloister. He is even regarded as a starets (ста́рец, "elder", a title usually reserved for monk-confessors), believing him to be a psychic and faith healer.[1] He impressed many people with his knowledge and ability to explain the Bible in an uncomplicated way.
In 1907 Rasputin was invited for the first time by Tsar Nicholas II and Alexandra as a healer for their only son, Tsarevich Alexei, who suffered from hemophilia. It is supposed he became an influential figure in the later years of the Tsar's reign, especially after September 1915. It has been argued[2] that Rasputin helped to discredit the tsarist family, leading to the fall of the Romanov dynasty in February 1917. The Tsarina and her family saw Rasputin variously as a saintly mystic, visionary, healer and prophet but his enemies, as a debauched religious charlatan, heavily interested in sexual relations with his followers. There has been much uncertainty over Rasputin's life and influence, as accounts have often been based on dubious memoirs, hearsay and legend.[In Russia he is nowadays seen by many people and clerics, among them Elder Nikolay Guryanov as a righteous man"
I thought Christians were "seekers after truth - tut-tut
Jim Carroll

Some facts about Marxism and religion from, a pamphlet I picked up when I was working as an electrician at the Humanist Society headquarters in London.

"The founder and primary theorist of Marxism, the nineteenth century German sociologist Karl Marx, had an ambivalent attitude to religion, viewing it primarily as "the opium of the people" that had been used by the ruling classes to give the working classes false hope for millennia, while at the same time recognizing it as a form of protest by the working classes against their poor economic conditions. In the end, Marx rejects religion.
In the Marxist-Leninist interpretation of Marxist theory, developed primarily by Russian revolutionary Vladimir Lenin, religion is seen as negative to human development, and socialist states that follow a Marxist-Leninist variant are atheistic and explicitly antireligious. Due to this, a number of Marxist-Leninist governments in the twentieth century, such as the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China, implemented rules introducing state atheism. However, several religious communist groups exist, and Christian communism was important in the early development of communism."


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 05:31 AM

I had my children christened. I support local traditions and older family felt more comfortable with it.

It doesn't make them Christians. They couldn't speak and ga goo isn't exactly informed consent.

Another local tradition is Morris dancing. Those who introduce their children to that tradition don't to my knowledge say their kids buy into ancient fertility and harvest assurance.

Kids want to emulate their parents. Hence be careful what gets hard wired into them. My lads are as trapped as I am in supporting a football team that doesn't offer much in terms of success but they like me are trapped anyway.

Same with religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 05:46 AM

Dan, I didn't get that atheists were telling anyone how to think. That's an impossibility. ....stringsilver

What Stringsilver wrote about the impossibility of telling people how to think is right .But telling people how to think is what some people claiming to be atheists are doing here. I'm not sure who it was said that he was proud he taught his kids how to think , and not what to to think .
Muskett wrote above :
"It is seeing religious equality turning into religious privilege and that is worth resisting by intelligent people who prefer to be taught how to think rather than what to think".


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 05:58 AM

Because it is YOUR RELIGION AND YOUR Child. It is your right...

Well, by that logic it would be no-one's business but yours if you decided to bring up your child in a religion that demanded they be sacrificed to the gods at 14, or that your daughter should undergo genital mutilation at some point during her childhood. I am saying that (without shrill, the attribution of which quality anyone who knows me personally would find laughable), by telling your children that God is true and is a huge exception to the need to apply critical thinking and the demand for evidence, you are potentially damaging them intellectually just as much as sacrifices and mutilations damage them physically. This is a challenge to you that you can't just shrug off by saying it's my kid and I'll do what I like. When they grow up, your kids go into bigger society and that affects far more people than you, them and your family. And don't tell me that a religious upbringing is a benign thing when you live in a country in which almost half the population deny evolution, in which near-lunatics with a cockeyed religious message receive mass adulation, in which abortion doctors live in fear of their lives thanks to religious zealotry and in which a President can publicly invoke God in justification for starting a criminal war. Not so benign, and you don't get off the hook by saying that you brought up your kid that way and, because of your interventions, they survived. The obvious riposte to that is , why did you put them through it in the first place? Why didn't you ,from the outset, educate them to be free thinkers? Yeah, your child, your right. Your child has rights too, and one of the key ones is the right to education. Last time I looked, that didn't mean some education with big exceptions. Telling your child that evidence-innocent mythology is truth (and that people who tell you otherwise are simply being shrill, or militant, or something like that) is no part of education by any definition I've ever seen. In fact, it's anti-education.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 06:21 AM

I had my children christened. I support local traditions and older family felt more comfortable with it.

Well I refused to allow my two to be christened and I met with huge condemnation from certain quarters in my family (they're in their 30s now and I still receive criticism to this day). They both attended religious instruction lessons at their (non-faith) schools, the law of the land (we could have withdrawn them, but that would have made them into outcasts in the eyes of their peers - another non-benign effect of faith...) Your point about supporting local tradition is harder to counter by us atheists. We don't have clubs or churches, unlike big religion. I allowed my son and daughter to join the Cubs and Brownies, which at the time started their weekly proceedings with an enforced bout of head-bowing. Religion survives by existing as a not-so-benign tumour inextricably bonded to society. That is deliberate, and it wouldn't survive any other way. I can't be dishonest and sit here pretending that good things can't sometimes come from this, but there are plenty of bad things possible as well, intellectual stunting being one such. My children were exposed to religion but were never of it. They always knew that they could decide to have themselves christened when they grew up. It is an option that neither took up. Am I pleased? I don't give a damn. What adults do in that regard is their business, their right. Get it, Jack?

It doesn't make them Christians. They couldn't speak and ga goo isn't exactly informed consent.

Maybe not, but you made an awful lot of promises on their behalf.

Another local tradition is Morris dancing. Those who introduce their children to that tradition don't to my knowledge say their kids buy into ancient fertility and harvest assurance.

False analogy. Morris dancing is peripheral to society in a way that religion never is. No-one is going to excommunicate you, ostracise you or threaten you with hellfire if you give up morris dancing. There is no holy book or body of theology attached to morris dancing. You don't have to deny evidence in order to be a morris dancer. Practising morris dancing does not tie you to ancient fertility, etc. Maybe you need a slightly better analogy, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 06:26 AM

Amen, Jack.   It appears you have Mr. Shaw well pegged.    "less shrill" is a nice touch.

Isn't it good to know that Mr. Shaw, the soul of tolerance and good feeling, will no doubt just let the thread die now without any retort?

We should all try to emulate his calm even-handedness.


Well, it's a good job we don't all emulate your penchant for lashing out in your posts without adding a shred of substantive content.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 08:21 AM

Shaw I'm putting you in the intentionally rude column. But that is not news, four anyone that actually knows you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:05 AM

Really, Jacko? Are you in charge of something around here none of us knows about?

The questions I put cannot be answered by people like you and Ron hurling snide comments back. Those are simply the mark of people who are afraid to face up to some awkward realities. You bring up your kids to believe in something for which there is no evidence, yet for which there is a whole lifestyle and intellectual frame of reference attached, then you should be ready, conscience clear, to answer those questions. Not to me. I don't give a damn if you can't, or won't, answer the questions, but, if you don't, or hedge around, conclusions about your integrity may well be drawn. The way we bring up and educate our children is far too important a matter for it to be absolutely no-one's business save mummy's and daddy's. One day those children will be running the planet. It's abundantly clear that people running the planet who are encumbered by religion have done a massive amount of damage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:41 AM

"The questions I put cannot be answered by people like you and Ron hurling snide comments back."

The questions you put are insane unrealistic jabberings of a dyed in the wool brainwashed Dawkinsist. There are no realistic answers.

Relax. Millions of people are raising their kids with their own values. That is the way parenthood works. That is the way it will always work. Christians get to raise their kids with their values. Argumentative individual who think a glass of liquor is Heaven and a paper cut is Hell raise their kids with their values. All kids get "indoctrinated". They learn a lot more from what you do and say in life than what some preacher or some rude pop science author tells them.

Kids will find their own way, in this information rich society it is inevitable.

"Really, Jacko? Are you in charge of something around here none of us knows about? "

I did not say I was in charge or anything of the kind. I am sorry that I have upset you to the point of childish name calling and shrill hyperbole, again. Calm down. But realize that I asked the question of Stringsinger. You would not be so upset if you had not butted in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:49 AM

I said near the beginning of this this thread that I thought that your behavior and Musket's reminded me of some of the behaviors described in the article. I am pleased to inform you that Steve in particular has confirmed this suspicion way beyond my expectations.

I also came to the conclusion that Dawkins is way too unscientific and way to rude to be a spokesperson for rational thought. I think that Dr. de Waal is much more reasonable and much less biased.

Please forgive me for all of the things I have said that may have given offense and please forgive me for not having the interpersonal skills to draw this to a close sooner.

God Bless you all and good fortune to all who think that was an empty gesture.

I don't have anything else to say on this topic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:57 AM

Back in the Crusade business, the so-called moderate wing of Mudcat is intent on trashing the books of atheists who don't agree on ideas.

Instead of analyzing the books in a creative way, the detractors claim that their feelings are hurt and are victims instead of curtailing the judgments and invectives hurled out of a pseudo-self defense. There are no "insane unrealistic jabberings of a dyed in the wool brainwashed Dawkinsist". This is just another ad hominem to keep the discussion closed in some way by trashing those with which the pseudo-moderates don't agree.

This is by no means moderation but an attempt to smear others as part of the religious tradition of bullying.

Religious bullies

Sam Harris has written a book titled "The End of Faith" and "Letters To A Christian Nation"
Dan Dennett's recent book is called "Breaking the Spell".

I would strongly suggest that you read some of these books before casting aspersions on them. Then we would have something to really talk about. Also, read Dawkins' book(s)
as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:59 AM

The questions you put are insane unrealistic jabberings of a dyed in the wool brainwashed Dawkinsist. There are no realistic answers.

Because they are too awkward for you?

All kids get "indoctrinated".

Oh no you don't, old chap. There you go again with a back-door attempt to equate faith with non-faith. My kids were not indoctrinated in any way (which isn't to say I never made any mistakes in bringing 'em up). Indoctrination is the sole preserve of people who deal in unsupportable certainty. I'm perfectly prepared to accept that there is a way of being a religious family in which children are not indoctrinated. But there are plenty more who do indulge.

They learn a lot more from what you do and say in life than what some preacher or some rude pop science author tells them.

Indeed. And what you do may include herding them to church and sticking them in a faith school.

Kids will find their own way, in this information rich society it is inevitable.

But Jack. You and your ilk have been doing things the same way, bringing up your kids to not question the tenets of faith, for thousands of years. The information age has been with us for hardly more than a generation out of all that time. Good job the information age came along to let you off your moral hook then, eh? Just carry on the same old way and google will sort your kids out then! Phew, what a philosophy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 10:43 AM

Delusion may sound harsh at the personal level but if it quacks..

The word describes things perfectly in the same way as faith. If things religion dictates actually existed you would have no need for faith, hence the delusion is an important facet.

If delusion is insulting, how do you deal with asking for forgiveness for sinning or feeling not worthy being as a virtue? The bollocks that clergy deal out at the altar sometimes make delusion sound a little tame.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 12:55 PM

Your questions make a lot of assumptions about what people do that are not necessarily true, and beyond that, you assume that their choices have the same meaning to them as they do to you.

The questions that you ask, in addition to being leading and prejudicial, have an inquisitorial tone, which causes one to smilingly reflect that you haven't really gotten over that Catholic upbringing.

Beyond that, your questions have very little to do with either the way I've brought up my kids, or what any of us believe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 07:30 PM

Your questions make a lot of assumptions about what people do that are not necessarily true, and beyond that, you assume that their choices have the same meaning to them as they do to you.

If my assumptions are not true then it shouldn't be too difficult for you to tell me how. But you haven't. As for choices, we are not talking about grown-ups making choices for themselves. We are talking about them making choices for their children before those children are old enough to make the choices for themselves. Well, that's parenting for you, but in the particular areas we're talking about here the danger is that of making a choice for them predicated on a blend of accident of birth and denial of evidence. That sounds quite serious to me. As far as I was able, I wanted my children to know what was true and how they could learn to verify truth for themselves, not have some unsupportable doctrine poured over them. I don't doubt for one second that many people of faith make those choices with the best possible intentions, but in no way does that guarantee their rectitude.

The questions that you ask, in addition to being leading and prejudicial, have an inquisitorial tone, which causes one to smilingly reflect that you haven't really gotten over that Catholic upbringing.

You are misusing the word "prejudicial". Selecting random pejorative adjectives does you no credit. My questions were not an opinion poll or drafted for a referendum. They are intended to be challenging to the mindset typical of millions of believers who feel rather safe in their cocoons of church/society. I suggested that you honestly confront them. But I'm not bothered if you won't, or can't, really. And your tired and lazy reference to my upbringing, which was probably as benign as Catholicism comes, is just desperate. Not something that thinking people need to resort to. There isn't much thinking beyond the spleen of your whole post, though, is there?   

Beyond that, your questions have very little to do with either the way I've brought up my kids, or what any of us believe.

Which sounds like denial to me. I'd love you to prove me wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 08:35 PM

If you were to spell out the ideas that you have a problem with, identify the religions groups that hold them, and then show us how those ideas cause problems when they are taught to children, then we might have something to talk about. The fact that you haven't done that seems to me to be just plain laziness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Sammy the Skeptic
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:37 PM

Ah, Dude, you said

My questions were not an opinion poll or drafted for a referendum. They are intended to be challenging to the mindset typical of millions of believers who feel rather safe in their cocoons of church/society.

If you think that you are challenging millions of believers when you post anything here, you better have yer doc check your meds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 12:48 AM

Stim is there a way to send u a message?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 02:53 AM

You can contact me through Bruce.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 09:00 AM

Bearded bruce?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 09:40 AM

If you think that you are challenging millions of believers when you post anything here, you better have yer doc check your meds.

Indeed, but what you are challenging is the idea that these beliefs have any sort of objective currency and are somehow worthy of our respect. If people choose to believe that God favours them for believing in system of centuries old misanthropic horse-chocolate written by the loopy scribes of yore then that's their beeswax. Out here in the real world, the Earth turns on a godless axis and even the most militant Atheist must surely delight in the fact that we're all in this together, regardless of what lies & bullshit religion has been feeding us all these aeons.

Atheism is not a religion; it is the recognition of the objective, common reality we all share regardless. It is a lingering epiphany of liberation born of science, enquiry, and a true thirst for knowledge which ran us up such blind alleys centuries ago when we couldn't but look at a sunrise without ripping the guts out the nearest virgin by way of veneration. The religious find comfort in such blind alleys; they thrive in their foetid piss-reeking darkness, peering out in sanctimonious terror at the roaring highway of human progress in all its dynamic glory convinced that it's a highway to hell. Maybe it is at that; but there's no turning back...

(Please note: No offence at any single individual was intended during the composing of the above post. It was written in good humour in celebration of (as the poet said) the sheer sharp excellence we all of us share in simply being alive in the first place.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Sstim
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 10:33 AM

Murdoch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 04:19 PM

If you were to spell out the ideas that you have a problem with, identify the religions groups that hold them, and then show us how those ideas cause problems when they are taught to children, then we might have something to talk about. The fact that you haven't done that seems to me to be just plain laziness.

If I'm lazy then you can't read English. I have done what you said so many times I'm sick of saying it. You are not teaching "ideas" to children. You are actually not teaching them at all. You are force-feeding children with the dogma that there is a true God and your instruction to those children is full of unsupportable certainty. You do this from the cradle right through childhood and adolescence, a far longer apprenticeship that even the finest lawyer or surgeon has to undergo. The more benign among your number may give your kids the intellectual get-outs that the preacher or faith school don't provide, but that little "may" in that sentence represents a massive copout, a huge denial. We end up with billions of people who believe in a particular god they were told to believe in that is no more than an accident of their birth, a ludicrous and very damaging position. And they are the people who, generation after generation, are shaping our world. And it doesn't work very well. I've said why many times before and you have my posts there if you want to find out. I strongly suspect you don't really want to. If you don't, then there is little point talking to me. Do your own regurgitating. I have far better things to do. If I sound annoyed it's because I'm fed up with you pretending to be a champion dimwit.


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