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Naval Songs and Ballads
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Subject: Naval Songs and Ballads From: GUEST,Dr Sam Willis, Navy Records Society Date: 27 Mar 13 - 08:18 AM Hi Guys, One of the Navy Records Society's early publications, NRS Vol.33 (1908) was 'Naval Songs and Ballads' It would be fantastic if we could find recordings of those songs that we could post on our dedicated online publication site www.navyrecordsonline.co.uk Any volunteers/ideas about how we would find them? |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: GUEST,Sam [again] Date: 27 Mar 13 - 08:19 AM aha! and you can contact me editor@navyrecordsonline.co.uk Thanks! |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: MartinRyan Date: 27 Mar 13 - 08:28 AM Hmmmm... I think I actually had a bound copy of that book in my hand in a nautical bookshop in Greenwich (England) last autumn - or else something with a very similar title and date, defintitely American. Couldn't afford it, of course! Is there a copy online (haven't looked) or even a Table of Contents? Regards |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 27 Mar 13 - 08:57 AM Martin Thats's Firth's Naval Songs and Ballads, 1908. There used to be an online copy at google books, but it looks like there was a reissue in 2012 and the online copy has gone. You can see the list in the Roud index by searching for (precisely) Naval Songs and Ballads in the Source field: Naval Songs and Ballads entries. (222 entries). Otherwise, I'll try and post a list from my copy in a little while. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 27 Mar 13 - 09:02 AM In fact here's the list from my copy. There are probably typos in the text because it's the ocr output in a djvu copy, but it should be enough to work on (the numbers are the page numbers). There are 188 here I think, so I don't quite know how that compares to the entries in the Roud index. Many of the songs are from broadsides and there may not be tunes for them. However it is possible to get those with Roud numbers and find other collected/recorded sources for those. I'll see if I can do that on my copy of the Roud index. Mick
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 27 Mar 13 - 09:51 AM I've just done a quick search on Roud for Source:Naval Songs and Ballads and Roud No:Not empty and there are 64 results in that list. These are the ones with non-broadside sources and are therefore most likely to have tunes available. I haven't checked the Roud numbers for which might have tunes. Many of the tunes in Firth from broadside sources specify tunes and I can check for those in Simpson to see which tunes are known (this obviously excludes the like of To a pleasant tune). The list below removes duplicates from the Roud search, and are the most likely ones to find sung. There may well be others from a text only source that people have put tunes to. Perhaps Sam can tell us what material he is looking for. Does he want commercial recordings? Does he want the exact version as it appears in Firth? If he doesn't mind non-commercial recordings, it's quite likely that people here could do that using existing tunes from other versions, or the broadside tunes where they exists. (I haven't time to check broadside tunes at the moment, but I can do it tomorrow probably). Mick ADMIRAL BENBOW Roud number 3141 BATTLE OF THE SHANNON AND CHESAPEAKE Roud number 963 BILLY TAYLOR (A BURLESQUE BALLAD) Roud number 158 BLANCHE FRIGATE, THE Roud number 4583 BORNEO HEROES, THE Roud number V1666 BRAGS OF WASHINGTON, THE Roud number 22795 CAPTAIN BARTON'S DISTRESS ON BOARD THE LICHFIELD Roud number V1856 CAPTAIN COBB'S BRAVERY Roud number 7005 CAPTAIN KID'S FAREWEL TO THE SEAS; or, THE FAMOUS PIRATE'S LAMENT Roud number 1900 CAPTAIN MANSFIELD'S FIGHT WITH THE TURKES AT SEA Roud number 951 CAWSAND BAY Roud number 22827 CONSTITUTION AND GUERRIERE, THE Roud number 626 DEATH OF ADMIRAL BENBOW, THE Roud number 227 DEATH OF PARKER, THE Roud number 1032 DOWNFALL OF PIRACY, THE Roud number 8115 ENGLAND'S TRIUMPH AND HOLLAND'S DOWNFALL; or, THE SECOND ROYAL VICTORY Roud number V1307 FAIR SALLY LOV'D A BONNY SAILOR Roud number V2837 FAMOUS SEA-FIGHT BETWEEN CAPTAIN WARD AND THE RAINBOW Roud number 224 FANCY FRIGATE, THE Roud number 2563 FEMALE LIEUTENANT, THE; or, FAITHLESS LOVER REWARDED Roud number 158 HAWKE'S ENGAGEMENT Roud number 18256 HEARTS OF OAK Roud number V391 HOSIER'S GHOST Roud number 22377 HUMOURS OF THE ROYAL BILLY, THE Roud number V3972 JOHN DORY Roud number 249 LOSS OF THE CENTAUR, THE Roud number V851 MAIDEN'S FROLICK, THE; or, A BRIEF RELATION HOW SIX LUSTY LASSES HAS PREST FULL FOURTEEN TAYLORS... Roud number V5616 NEWS FROM THE COAST OF SPAIN; or, A TRUE RELATION OF A BRISK AND BLOODY ENCOUNTER... Roud number V1994 NEW SONG COMPOSED BY THE WOUNDED TARS AT THE SIEGE OF BOULOGNE, A Roud number 3175 OH CRUEL (ANSWER TO) Roud number V1837 OH CRUEL Roud number V1836 PAUL JONES Roud number 967 ROYAL TRIUMPH, THE; or, THE UNSPEAKABLE JOY OF THE THREE KINGDOMS Roud number V1306 RUSSIANS WON'T COME OUT, THE Roud number V5353 SAILOR'S ONELY DELIGHT, THE Roud number 134 SAUCY SCYLLA, THE Roud number V4653 SHANNON AND CHESAPEAKE, THE Roud number 1583 SIR ANDREW BARTON Roud number 104 SLAVE CHASE, THE Roud number 22376 TERRIBLE PRIVATEER, THE Roud number 9381 YE PARLIAMENT OF ENGLAND Roud number 2078 |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: MartinRyan Date: 27 Mar 13 - 09:56 AM Firth still available at archive.org HERE Regards |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 27 Mar 13 - 10:48 AM I checked archive earlier! I must have typed something wrong in my search field. Here's the list of entries in Firth that specify a tune. This is from my copy of the Roud index (it was easier to get the results. You can do the search online at VWML but if you want to see most of the fields - including tune - in the results you have to go one song at a time and copy them out. Derek if you're reading and have any sway at VWML it would be nice to be able to specify which fields you'd like in the List option for results!). My copy is old, but I should think fairly accurate for this book. The list has Title(upper case) Roud-No: Specified-Tune(lower case). (No Roud appears as -1). This list with the list above (there is some overlap) should be the most likely to find versions for. When I've time I'll check the tunes against Simpson to see which are known. Mick
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: MartinRyan Date: 27 Mar 13 - 11:12 AM Hi Mick I reckon what I saw in Greenwich was This one . Firth looks more interesting! Regards |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: Gutcher Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:41 PM PAUL JONES An American frigate Bonhomme Richard by name Mounted forty four guns and from New York she came To sail in the channel of old England"s fame Wi a noble commander Paul Jones was his name. Ere we had lang cruised twa sail we espied A large forty four and a twenty beside- Fifty fine shipping weel loaded wi stores And the convoy stood in for the old Yorkshire shores. About the hour of twelve we cam alangside Wi a lang speakin trumpet whence cam ye he cried Come answer me quickly I"ll hail ye no more Or else a broadside into you I will pour. We fought them four glasses four glasses sae hot Till forty brave seamen lay dead on the spot And fifty five more they lay bleeding in gore While Paul Jones"s thunderous cannon did roar. Our carpenter frightened to Paul Jones did say Our ship leaks in watter since fighting today Paul Jones he made answer in the height o his pride If we can do no better we"ll sink alangside Paul Jones he then smiled and to his men he did say Let every man stand to the best of his play Sae broadside for broadside they fought on the main And like true buckskin heroes we returned it again The Serapis wore round our ship for to take Which made the proud heart of the English to quake The shot flew so hot they could not stand it long And the bold British colours from English came down. Oh now my brave boys we have taken a fine prize A large forty four and a twenty likewise God pity the poor mothers that have reason to weep For the loss of their sons in the fathomless deep. As sung in Galloway in my grandfathers day. We were still dancing a dance called the "Paul Jones" in my dancing days. |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Mar 13 - 02:48 PM From memory - Come Brave Honest Jack Tar and the Sea Martyrs were both included on the Critics Group sea albums, the last one on 'Ye Mariners All' (John Faulkner, Terry Yarnell and Dick Snell) I think Ewan MacColl sang Martyrs on 'As We Were A'Sailing Let me know if you can't get a copy of them Jim Carroll . |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: GUEST Date: 27 Mar 13 - 02:49 PM Hi guys, this is fantastic. What I am going to do is look at the original book tomorow when I have a mo and will get back to you then. I really just want something to complement the original -- which I ASSUME is just a list of words, like poems. I want to bring them alive. I all of them is too much trouble then some of them would be excellent. Perhaps we could get someone to perform them... |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Mar 13 - 03:36 PM Critics Group again - Frankie Armstrong (lovely lady) makes a good job of 'Death of Parker' on the album 'Waterloo, Peterloo' Just checked - Come Brave Honest Jack Tar' is listed as 'Jack Tar' in N S and B Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: GUEST,mg Date: 27 Mar 13 - 03:46 PM I would love to see words of Captain Kidd's Farewell to the Sea if ever possible. mg |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: Anglogeezer Date: 27 Mar 13 - 04:03 PM GUEST, mg; said - "I would love to see words of Captain Kidd's Farewell to the Sea if ever possible. mg " try here Captain Kidd's Farewell Jake |
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Subject: Lyr Add: CAPTAIN KID'S FAREWEL TO THE SEAS From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Mar 13 - 04:09 PM Sorry for the continuous text - late and any mis-scanning Jim Carroll CAPTAIN KID'S FAREWEL TO THE SEAS; OR, THE FAMOUS PIRATE'S LAMENT. To the Tune of Coming down.
My name is Captain Kid, who has sail' [who has sail'd],
Upon the ocean wide, when I sail'd, etc.,
My faults I will display while I sail'd, etc.,
Many' long leagues from shore when I sail'd, etc.,
Because a word he spoke when I sail'd, etc.,
I struck with a good will when I sail'd, etc.,
A Quida merchant then while I sail'd, etc.,
A banker's ship of France, while I sailed, etc.,
Full fourteen ships I see when I sailed, etc.,
We steered from sound to sound while we sailed,
Upon the ocean seas while we sailed, etc.,
At famous Malabar when we sailed, etc.,
Then after this we chased, while we sailed,
Many Moorish ships we took while we sailed,
I, Captain Cullifoord, while I sailed, etc.,
Two hundred bars of gold, while we sail'd, etc..
St. John, a ship of fame, when we sailed, etc.,
We taken was at last, and must die, etc.,
Tho' we have reigned awhile we must die, etc.,
Farewel the ocean main, we must die, etc.,
From Newgate now in carts we must go, etc.,
Some thousands they will flock when we die,
We taken was at last, and must die, etc.,
Tho' we have reigned awhile we must die, etc.,
Farewel the ocean main, we must die, etc.,
From Newgate now in carts we must go, etc.,
Some thousands they will flock when we die, |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: Lighter Date: 27 Mar 13 - 04:13 PM Few of Firth's songs have ever been recorded. A great many look like poems that may never have had tunes to begin with. |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: Steve Gardham Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:04 PM Sam, If you only want a selection, why not make your own selection and we'll do our best to accommodate you? I have a copy of Firth myself and on a quick glance I'd say all of them are from stall copies, but as already attested a good number made it as songs in oral tradition. |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: Gutcher Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:26 PM I am surprised that "Thurot"s Defeat" does not get a mention in any of the lists quoted. Again this was a favourite in Galloway and if I had the equipment/expertise I could give the tune. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THUROT'S DEFEAT From: Gutcher Date: 27 Mar 13 - 08:45 PM THUROT"S DEFEAT. On the fourteenth day of February as I heard the people say Three French ships of war boys they anchored in our bay They anchored in our bay and they landed at Culrout And marched to Carrickfergus without any more dispute. They thought to take the castle without any more ado Till brave Colonel Jennings of them he got full view And gave them such a store boys of his powder and his ball Till four hundred and eleven of those French dogs they did fall. Thurot takes his spyglass and views the shore all round Where the people they came flocking from country and from town Boys we cannot stay long here boys this place is getting warm See those bold heroes in clusters how they swarm We"ll demand great provisions boys we will take more or less Because we cannot safely boys stay long into this place If the English by some chance boys do come in by the sea We"re so guarded by the land boys they will give us warm play. On the twenty first of February the wind it blew northwest And we poor British sailors were very sore opprest For we could not beat up to them the wind it blew so high And for proud monsuire Thurot we were forced to lie by. Early the next morning as daylight did appear Elliot he spied Thurot which put him in good cheer Elliot he spied Thurot which put him in good cheer Saying shakeout your reefs boys and after him we"ll steer. The first came on was the Brilliant boys and gave him a broadside The next came up was the Police and she fired as she flyed The third came up was Elliots ship and gave him fire around Aha my boys says Thurot this is not Carrick town. Elliot walked the deck with visage clear and calm Give them another broadside boys and we"ll slay them every wan Give them another broadside boys and sink them in the sea Don"t let them get their hooks aboard or we will lose the day. Thurot walks the deck with visage pale and wan Saying strike your colours brave boys they will sink us every man For their heavy shot it comes so fast it comes both weather and lee Come strike your colours brave boys or they"ll sink us in the sea. Before they got their colours struck great slaughter there was made Of many a clever Frenchman on Thurot"s deck lay dead They came tumbling down in swarms on Thurot"s deck they lay While the bold British heroes cut her boom and yards away. And as for Thurot"s body as I hear the people say It was carried out by Elliot"s men and buried in Ramsay bay Here"s a health to Captain Elliot I have got no more to say Though the French they be kings on land we"re British boys by sea. A wheen verses missing as the memory is not what it was. |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 27 Mar 13 - 08:49 PM Here's a list of recordings from the Roud index for the songs in Firth with a Roud Number. (This may omit some more recent additions to the index; it was done from my old copy for convenience). These are field recordings or (AFAIK) traditional singers (as opposed to revival singers). Not all of these may be accessible of course (I'm thinking of some of the archive collections). Mick
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: GUEST Date: 28 Mar 13 - 04:11 AM This is fantastic guys, thanks. Mick - How do I go about trying to find these recordings? Sam |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: GUEST,Dr Sam Willis, Navy Records Society Date: 28 Mar 13 - 04:25 AM These recordings will be fantastic wif we can find them, but can we get any music for the ones without audio? |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 28 Mar 13 - 08:25 AM Sam - I'm a bit busy at the moment, but I'll get back to this later today. Briefly: some of the recordings are commercial releases and we can probably get audio for some or all of those from people here. As far as permissions to use them, many were released by specialist folk labels and I imagine they might be happy to let your respected institution used them. Some are research outfits and they may also be willing to let you used their recordings (or link to them) eg Max Hunter, LOC. Some (eg Hartness, Fowke, Warner) are held by universities and not (currently) publicly available, but again they may well be willing to supply you with copies. (There may be some that I didn't catch too; eg Death of Parker, I'm sure is available) As for the ones without audio, the fall into two groups, as per my lists above. The first list (those with Roud number above) generally have other versions available and I'll see which have tunes (probably most, but some will have only text). The second list is those with only a tune specified and I need to check those tune names against the list of tunes in a standard reference (Simpson: The British Broadside Ballad and its Music) to see which are known with music. If you want some of the songs sung to any of these tunes, there are probably people on here happy to do them and you can take your pick! I'll get back to you on both of these, probably later today. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: Steve Gardham Date: 28 Mar 13 - 11:15 AM Sam, It might be worth thinking about what sort of recordings you want, straight unaccompanied, simple backing, elaborate backing, professional recording etc. |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:11 PM I've been through the list with specified tunes, comparing them with Simpson and the results are below. About 30 of them have tunes that are known. The results are below. They are shown as TUNE LOST, meaning that Simpson says that this is so, NOT FOUND meaning that I didn't find it in Simpson; otherwise the main title in Simpson that the tune title is classified with is given. I'll have a look at the other list - those with Roud numbers - tomorrow and see which have known tunes (probably most of them). Mick
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: Gutcher Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:44 PM Sam--A French ballad with it"s English translation is given in A.W. Moore"s "Manx Ballads and Music" 1896, describing Thurots exploits at sea. As far as I can make out with my limited music reading ability the tune given for this ballad bears no resemblance to that to which the words given above are sung. A long article on Thurot and Elliot is given in Manx Notes & Queries for the year 1904. |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: GUEST,mg Date: 29 Mar 13 - 04:00 AM Thanks for the captain kidd...but why does it say the tune is lost? we know the standard tune for captain kid and it looks like the longer ersion would go to the same tune... |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Mar 13 - 04:28 AM "but why does it say the tune is lost?" I wondered that; maybe the OP knows. I scanned it in from our copy of 'Naval Songs and Ballads' which was published in 1907; maybe the song wasn't as universally popular then. The same tune is used for the goodnight ballads, Tedburn Hill and Jack Hall, and I seem to remember it being attached to one called 'I'll Be No Submissive Wife' - quite a popular tune. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: Steve Gardham Date: 29 Mar 13 - 05:07 AM It could be that Simpson was merely being precise in that we have no guarantee that the current 'Jack Hall' tune was the original tune. However the death of Kidd, Benbow and Hall all occurred within a few years of each other in the early years of the 18thc. |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 29 Mar 13 - 07:41 AM The situation is that the ballad tune specified, namely Coming Down has been lost. Simpson treats the tune Coming Down (specified for the Captain Kid... song) under the heading song Sound a Charge and here is most of the text for that tune: I have not found a ballad from which the tune name "Sound a Charge" could be derived. About 1660, however, a ballad was published that calls for the tune. It is T.R.'s "The Royall Subjects Joy" (Euing, Roxburghe; reprinted in RB VII 678), which has the following distinctive stanza form: You Loyall Subjects all sing for joy, sing for joy Good news here's at White-Hall, sing for joy, A second Charles is come, Though heavy news to some, Let them say no more but mum, sing for joy, sing for joy. Another is "Touch and go; or, The French Taylor finely Trapann'd", c1670, beginning " A Tayler in the Strand,/Touch and go, touch and go," to the tune "Sound a Charge, Sound a Charge" (Rawlinson, reprinted in RB VII, 486). Its stanza contains four rather than three lines upon the b rhyme. I have found no music entitled "Sound a Charge". The Dancing Master, 1701 et seq., contains a tune "Touch and Go", whose rhythms are unsatisfactory for singing either ballad. Several other pieces cast in the mold of "The Royall Subjects Joy" give us names of still other tunes which do not seem to have survived: "Captain Kid's Farewell to the Seas," c.1701, is to the tune of "Coming Down" (Lord Crawford 843, reprinted in C.H.Firth's Naval Songs and Ballads, 1908, p134); and a D'Urfey poem "The Moderator's Dream" is to "Chimney Sweep" (Pills, 1719-1720, II, 182, without music). There is however in Pills, 1714, V, 117, VI 251, an amorous song beginning "A Young Man and a Maid, put in all, put in all" which contains music (Fig 438) suitable to all these ballads save the hpermetrical "Touch and Go". The same air is found in The Dancing Master, II, 2d ed, 1714, 121, entitled "Put in All". Although we cannot be sure that this tune was used for the seventeenth century pieces, a strange bit of evidence strengthens the possibility. "Londons Farewell to ye parliament," a manuscript ballad of c.1642 in the hands of Henry Lawes and attributed to him, is coupled with an unnamed air (Fig 439) clearly related to the eighteenth-century "Put in all". The first stanza, a variant form interlining the music, shows the close metrical similarity to the ballads just cited: farewell to ye parlyament with a Hey with a Hey far well to ye parliament with a Hoe, your dear delight ye Cittye, whose wants have made us witty & a figg for ye close Comittee with a Hey tronony nony noe Except for the length of the closing line here (in the text of the ballad the line contains an additional "nony") the structure is congruent with that of the other pieces under discussion. The difference is reflected in the final phrases of the two tune .... The stanza pattern of "The Royall Subjects Joy" is also found in the more recent ballad "Sam Hall," with a fine traditional tune. It lies, however, outside the scope of our discussion. (Footnote: For an illuminating study of the roots of this ballad and associated texts and tunes, see Bertrand H. Bronson "Samuel Hall's Family Tree," California Folklore, I (1942), 47-64) (I'll put up the two tunes later, but my dog is currently demanding the great outdoors!) So Coming Down is lost, though the tune given by Simpson from Pills could be used (parts are similar to the Captain Kidd tune you know, though minor) or you could use something from the Sam Hall family. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 29 Mar 13 - 11:26 AM I've been through my second list now - songs with Roud numbers - looking for other versions which have music specified. The search was for music or audio and both are included in the list. For songs with many versions with music I have only included 6 of them. Unless it says that only some are shown, all the other sources with tunes (in the Roud index) are listed. I think 25 of them have other versions with tunes. The lists should show all the songs with tunes of some sort available. Mick
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: Steve Gardham Date: 29 Mar 13 - 05:44 PM That's a lot of great info there, Mick. Though no tune has survived for Blanche Frigate (as RoyP tells us in OBSS) it does go very well to the Earsdon Calling on Song and fits the spirit of the song well. Isn't 'The Saucy Scylla' just another version of 'Fancy Frigate' and as such to the tune of 'Derry Down' which is well covered in Simpson? |
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Subject: RE: Naval Songs and Ballads From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 29 Mar 13 - 08:37 PM Steve The Saucy Scylla in Firth has no named tune and no Derry-down chorus specified. I can see the similarities with the Fancy Frigate songs (there's one of those in Firth immediately before the Saucy Scylla) but they have separate Roud numbers (2 other SS in addition to Firth - Madden and a collection in the BL), which is why the search didn't find any other versions with tunes. Re The Blanche Frigate, I can see that the Earsdon Calling on Song would do fine for it. I also see from RoyP's note that Tars of The Blanche was called for as the tune on a version of The Black Velvet Band (there was some discussion of this in a couple of threads here, particularly Lyr Req: Old versions of Black Velvet Band). It's not evident if it's the same tune as used now for BVB, but it would fit. Mick |
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