Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge

Subject: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 11:25 AM

I'm drafting a retelling of the story of Kullervo called The Pearl Of Combat, following Grishka's advice to find a shorter folktale to retell first. This story is dungeon punk (cyberpunk/high fantasy), loosely based on its source, and the country of Kalevala, its setting, is modelled culturally on Karelia and southeastern Finland as portrayed in the Kalevala. (Karjala, Finnish/Karelian for "Karelia" is one of its Northern provinces) It has colonised Pohjola, based on Siberia and southwestern Alaska. The Maiden of Pohjola's culture is based on Siberian and Central Alaskan Yup'ik cultures, and Kullervo's is based on the Aleut.

I found out that there is a Karelian Kalevala-metre folk song called "The Revenge of The Kalova Boy" which is the seed of the whole Kullervo story. In brief, the Kalova boy is an orphan living in a blacksmith's house. His master's wife doesn't like him and sends him out to be a cowherd, baking a stone in his loaf of bread. He discovers what she's done when he tries to cut the bread and his knife breaks. He take his revenge, turning all her cows into bears, getting them to maul her when she leaves the house to milk them. I know that one of the lines is "Tuo kaunis, Kalovan poika (The handsome Kalova boy)" but can't find anything else.

Does anyone know anything about this song and its lyrics? Could someone help me find a full text with an English translation, if one exists?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 11:29 AM

*takes*.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 07:11 PM

Refresh. Can anyone help?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Kalervon Poika (Trad. Finnish)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 06:56 AM

For reference, here's what I found after searching (first on a Finnish database
-through Google Translate- I can't speak or read Finnish, and anyway according to an online friend, this song is written in a very old dialect of Finnish.) It's a variant of the Kalova Boy's Revenge song/poem.

Tuo kaunis Kalervon poika
Kaupattih on Karjalaha
Vienahan Vienäjän moalla,
Kahtee kattilah ranihe,

Viiteh viikate kuluhe,
Kuutee kuokan ruopivohe.
Tuo kaunis Kalervon poika
Jopa noin sanoiksi virkki:

"Kulla työllä uusi orja,
10 Roavolla rahan alaini?"
Pantih lapsen katsojiksi.


"Syötä lasta, syö itseki,
Katso lasta, kaiva silmä."
Syötti lasta, söi itseki,
15 Katso lasta, kaivo silmän.

Jopa noin sanoiksi virkki:
"Kull' on työllä uusi orja.
Roavolla rahan alaini?"
Pantih nuotan soutajiksi.

20 Hänpä näin sanoiksi virkki:
"Soutanenko veän takoa,
Vain souan asun mukaha."
Vetäjä on Venarin poika,
Perimies Pelasen poika

25 Hänpä noin sanoiksi virkki:
"Mikä siitä soutajasta,
Kuin ei soua veäntakoa,
Kuin soutaa asun mukahe."

Souti hankat hajalla,
30 Levitti lesen venehen,
Katajaiset koaret katko.

Itse noin sanoiksi virkki:
"Kull' on työllä uusi orja,
Roavolla rahan alaini?"

35 Pantih häntä tarpojiksi.
Hänpä noin sanoiksi virkki:
"Tarponenko veän takoa,
Vain tarvon asun mukahan?"
Vetäjä on Venarin poika,
40 Perimies Pelosen poika,

Jop' on sanoiksi virkki:
"Mikä siit' on tarpojasta,
Kun ei tarvo veän takoa,
Kuin tarpou asun mukaha."

45 Honkan varreksi hotasi,
Pani poajen tarpomeksi,
Tarpo nuotan tappurahe,
Vejen velliksi sevotti,
Kalat liivakse litsotti,

50 Kalojah hän käsin) kantoi.
Itse noin sanoikse virkki:
"Kull' on työllä uusi orja,
Roavolla rahan alaini?
Pantih hänt' kasen ajoho.

55 Leikkai puuta kaksi, kolme,
Itse nousi kannon peähä:
"Kuni huuto kuulunohe,
Sini kaski koatukohe,
Älkä vesa venykkä,


60 Älkä kanto kasvakka,
Olen hyvän ottakka,
Vain älkä terävän tekkä
Kasessa Kalervon poijan."

Itse noin sanoiksi virkki:
65 "Kulla työllä uusi orja,
Roavolla rahan alaim?"

Pantih häntä paimeneksi,
Viijen vitan vartihaksi,
Puun kaheksan katsojaksi.

70 Mäni päivä männiköllä,
Kului päivä kuusikolla,
Vieri vehnä koivikolla,
Karkasi katajikolla.
Jo emäntä koista huusi:
75 "Aik' on syyvä uuven orjan,
Ravita rahan alaisen."

Veti veitsehe kivehe,
Karahutti kallivoho:
"Syöjätär paha emäntä,
80 Kiven leipo leipähäni,
Vehnän peälitse veteli,
Vejin veitseni kivehe,
Karahutin kallivoho."

Itse noin sanoiksi virkki:
85 "Millä maksan naisen naurun,
Naisen naurun, piian pilkan,
Emännän pahan piännän?
Millä jaksan, sillä maksan."

Jo emäntä koista huuti:
90 "Mist' on paimen pillin soanut,
Rautivo rahasen torven?"

Jätti lehmäset leholla,
Maion antajat aholla,
Hatasarvet hoavikolla,

95 Kultasarvet kuusikolla,
Ajoi köllit kotihe,
Karhut kirjokartanohe.

"Oi sie entini emäntä
Tule lehmies lypsämähe,

100 Roavahis roavittamahe,
Vaikeitas valuttamahe!"
Mäni lehmies lypsämähe,
Roavahia rovittamahe,
Vaikeita valuttamahe.

105 Susi peällä suimastihe,
Karhu peällä koamistihe,
Jalan reijestä revitti,
Keän katkoi kalovehesta,
Kiskoi karvat kinttuloista.

110 Hän noin sanoiksi virkki:
"Oi Ukko ylijumala
Eli toatto taivahini,
Nossa pilvi luotehesta,
Toini kohta koilisesta,

Oi Ukko ylijumala
Eli toatto taivahini,
Nossa pilvi luotehesta,
Toini kohta koilisesta,

115 Tapa sie Kalervon poika
Rakehilla rautasilla,
Niekloilla teräsnenillä!"
Hänpä joutu kuulomassa,

Itse noin sanoiksi virkki:
120 "Oi Ukko ylijumala,
Toatto taivon valtivoija,
Nossa pilvi luotehesta,
Toini lännestä lähetä,
Vihmu vettä taivosesta,

125 Mettä pilvistä pirota,
Jott' ei tukki tulta ottais,
Vänttä veäntäisi savuo,
Suurina sotakesänä,
Vainovuonna vaikiena."

130 Kuulin minä kummempia,
Näin minä imehempiä
Hämehessä käyessäni.

Hämehess' on härkä suuri,
Sonni Suomess' lihava,
135 Ei ole härkä suuren suuri,
Eikä ole härkä pienen pieni,
Keski lehmien vasoja;
Päivän lenti peäskölintu
Härän sarvien välitse,

140 Hätäsestä peähä peäsi;
Kuun juoksi kesäorava
Härän häntäluuta myöte,
Eipä vielä peähä peässy,
Härän hännällä lepäsi,

145 Siit' on vasta peähän peäsi;
Kesän kärppä keäntelih
Yhen kyntyvön sijalla.
Etsitähkö iskijövä,
Tahotahko tappajoa.

150 Läksi ukko iskemähe,
Palvani pitelemähe,
Virokannas viilemähe.
Härkä peätä heiluhutti,
Mussat silmät muljahutti.

155 Ukko kuusehe kajahti,
Palvani pajun nenähä,
Virokannas kannon peähä.

Ukko kuusesta toruve,
Palvani pajun nenästä,
160 Virokannas kannon peästä:
"Kuin mie tullen toisen kerran,
Soan verta seitsemän venehtä,
Satoa syltä makkaroita,
Satoa puutova lihoja,
165 Kuuta kuusi leiviskeä."

Siitä mäni toisen kerran,
Ukko hammast' hivove,
Palvani pitelöyve,
Virokannas viilömähe:

170 Sai verta seitsemän venehtä,
Sata syltä makkaroita,
Sata puutova lihoja,
Kuuta kuusi leivisköä.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:32 AM

I did some searching, Morwen, but couldn't find anything. However, I did see an interesting tie-in with the Bible verse which asks, "Which of you, if your son asked you for bread, would give him a stone? Or if he asked you for fish, would give him a snake?"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 06:42 PM

@leeneia: That's fascinating, since Idid find references to a biblical reference in that song. Obviously some themes are common; the idea of stone in bread is ''so'' shocking and dramatic because a loaf of bread was ''extremely valuable'' both in Biblical Palestine and in Russian Karelia, so baking a stone into it was a violation of social norms. Add the fact that the boy is an orphan, and the mistress's wickedness symbolises the possible victimisation faced by the orphan who had to work for their keep.

I think the song may have been intended as a cautionary tale on how not to treat children, especially orphans. Sorry if this post's a bit rambling!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 06:53 PM

*Sorry, that should be so and extremely valuable, especially in a region that (in the 19th century at least), frequently experienced famine and poverty.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 07:34 PM

Oh, and did.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 12:40 PM

There's another thing going on in the story. The orphan is living at the blacksmith's, and if he's healthy enough, he could learn to be a smith, too. However, the wife sends him out to herd animals, a job that's far less rewarding. She's denying him a future.

In many traditional societies, herding the animals is a kid's task. It doesn't pay anything, and it's not well-regarded. Basically, "any warm body could do it." A smith, however, is a respected man who is well paid.

By the way, there are a bunch of enjoyable mystery novels by Donna Andrews where the main character is a modern-day, female blacksmith. She sells her hand-made ironware at fairs. So you don't have to be a Hercules to be a blacksmith.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 07:48 PM

@leeneia: I never really noticed that element of the plot before. Interestingly, in the Kalevala, Untamo, the orphan's uncle, says that he'll sell Kullervo, the boy, to Karelia, "to the blacksmith, Ilmarinen/there to swing the heavy hammer."

But, as we've seen, that's not what happened.

A similar tale turns up in Alaska, Canada, and Greenland. In this story, the boy is called Kaujjarjak, Quadjaq, and other names, and he usually pounds whale blubber, a similarly degrading job. But he still takes his revenge through bears and a knife still plays an important role in the plot (giving him a knife was one of the kindest things anyone did for the kid).

Knowing that aspect of the story makes this passage,

   -snip-
"Of the youth am I the poorest,
Hapless lad and full of trouble,
Evil luck to me befallen!
I alas! must idly wander
O'er the hills and through the valleys,
As a watch-dog for the cattle!"
-From John Martin Crawford's 1888 full translation of the Kalevala, which is also where the first quoted passage came from

which is Kullervo's lament about his bad situation, more poignant.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 07:59 PM

*Kaujjarjuk*

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: Deckman
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 09:36 PM

Kittos! bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 10:42 PM

@Bob: What does that mean?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 05:24 PM

That's certainly interesting about the parallels in Alaska, Canada, and Greenland. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: Deckman
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 08:42 PM

"thanks"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:10 PM

@Bob and Leeneia, and anyone with : Interestingly, in researching folktales and their forms in different cultures (in order to how other people have solved the same question of how to transfer stories to a different cultural context). I came across various forms of the Cinderella story and other folktales like say Jack and The Beanstalk in different parts of the world, even in parts of America. But unfortunately not in my part of the world, for some reason.

Seems to me that the Kullervo story, both in folktale form and Kalevala form, is a Finnish/Karelian variant of "Cinderlad" or "Ash Boy" tales with a wicked mistress/employer taking the stepparent role.

Also, it seems weird to me that the original folktale, found in variants of folk poems in Finland and Karelia,(the version of the story used in the poems of the Kalevala comes from the shores of Lake Ladoga in southern Karelia) has no distinctive local American variants despite the number of Finnish immigrants to America, particularly in Appalachia, where the really distinctive variants of European tales seem to be from. You could easily take out the Finnish elements, transplant the story to somewhere in the States, and it would still be the story of Kullervo.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:11 PM

*(useful information)*

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:18 AM

There's also an Estonian tale, The Royal Herd-Boy, along the same lines. There too is the evil mistress who abuses the young herdboy, who's of royal/noble origin.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:21 AM

*In that tale, too, she's torn apart by wolves and bears.*

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: AKS
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 04:24 AM

Kullervo is the tragig figure of Finnish folklore. Some variations name him "Kalervon poika" /son of Kalervo/, some "Kalevanpoika" /mythical giant/, strong, handsome man with golden hair.

Several, slightly different versions have been collected. The one found in Kalevala is based mainly on version(s) collected in Inkeri (Ingria, Ingermanland, area around St. Petersburg). Here is the plot in short:

-Kalervo and Untamo get to quarrel with one another.
-Untamo raids Kalervo's house and kills everyone except a servant gir (who btw is pregnant by Kalervo.), she becomes Untamo's slave.
-Kullervo is born, grows beatiful and strong, but unfit to any real work. Several means to get rid of (=kill) him are tried with no success.
-Kullervo is sold to Seppo Ilmarinen (seppä/o = 'blacksmith'), who sends him to herd the cattle. Ilmarinen's wife does not like Kullervo at all and bakes a stone into his bread one day.
-Kullervo's puukko (=knife) gets broken when cutting the bread. That drives him frantic, because that particular knife is the only thing left to remind him of his real father.
-Kullervo conjures bears and wolves to kill the evil wife and her cows – and runs away.
-Miraculously he finds his family alive, only his sister missing. He is sent to take the tax money to the collector, and on the way back meets a fair lass, whom he seduces – but later finds out her to be his sister. Sister drowns herself into the rapids.
-Ashamed and in despration Kullervo sets himself to war against Untamo's house. While on campaign he comes to know that, finally, his closest have died one after another. He succeeds to destroy Untamo's kin, returns home but finds no peace of mind.

-so finally:
Kullervo, Kalervon poika, tempasi terävän miekan / Kullervo, Kalervo's son, pulled (his) sharp sword
katselevi, kääntelevi, kyselevi, tietelevi / looks at, turning over, asks, inquires
Kysyi mieltä miekaltansa, tokko tuon tekisi mieli /asked his sword's opinion, whether it would mind
syöä syyllistä lihoa, viallista verta juoa / to eat guilty meat, to drink sinful blood

Miekka mietti miehen mielen, arvasi uron pakinan / the sword thought man's mind, guessed brave's speech
Vastasi sanalla tuolla: "Miks' en söisi mielelläni, / answered with a word thus: why wouldn't I willingly eat
söisi syyllistä lihoa, viallista verta joisi? /eat guilty meat, drink sinful blood
Syön lihoa syyttömänki, juon verta viattomanki." / I do eat meat of the not guilty, drink blood of the innocent

Here's the almost iconic painting of Kullervo's Curse by Akseli Gallén-Kallela.

AKS

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 06:33 AM

Hi, AKS. You wouldn't happen to know anything about that poem I quoted in my OP, would you? Including what its translation is in English? I've been told by a Finnish online friend and some Finnish online acquaintances that that particular poem is written in the equivalent of Middle English. And am I right in thinking that those poems about Kullervo come from all over the Finland/Russia border, both Ingria and south Karelia?

BTW, you might know that this story was also Tolkien's favourite Finnish folktale. He did a retelling of it in 1914 but never finished it, which you can find here: The Story of Honto Taltewenlen (Kullervo, son of Kalervo) by J.R.R. Tolkien, with notes by Verlyn Flieger. In that version, the incest is the result of a curse by the evil mistress.

The story was the basis of Tolkien's later Narn I Hin Hurin, The Children of Hurin, which also has a young hero, Turin, whose name is similar to one of the names of the incestuous brother in some of the Ingrian songs separated from his family as a child, living in a foster home, where he is taunted by a member of the household, who he later kills. He then falls in love with his unknown sister, then kills himself with his talking sword, asking it to drink his blood, when he learns who she is.

In The Children of Hurin, Turin and Nienor, his sister, actually get married and Nienor gets pregnant. Glaurung, the Dark Lord Morgoth's greatest dragon, who cursed her with amnesia, tells her, after listing all of Turin's bad qualities and deeds when he meets her, "But the worst of all his deeds you shall feel in yourself." Then she leaps off a cliff into the sea in despair and drowns herself- the same as the way Kullervo's sister dies. Soon after, Turin asks his sword Anglachel, which can talk, glows and loves to taste blood, to kill him, and falls upon it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 06:55 AM

*(whose name is similar to one of the names of the incestuous brother in some of the Ingrian songs)*

A note on that Tolkien version. From a Tolkienite's standpoint, this unfinished story is fascinating. The invented names are very similar to his later Quenya names and words and you can kind of see the roots of what eventually became the Narn. Also, this story is small-scale, only involving two clans feuding over resources, a contrast to the Narn, which is an epic involving all of the Free Peoples of Arda and the Dark Lord, fighting over control of the realms of Middle-earth. So, Tolkien basically took this story about a family feud and turned it into an epic. The Narn is one of my favourite Tolkien books, btw.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: AKS
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:30 AM

Well, the language in "Tuo kaunis Kalervon poika..." (that beautiful Kalervo's son) is not that old at all, I'd say. To a (modern) Finn it sounds archaic because it is rather a mixture of Karelian and Finnish – I'd place it somewhere between Vuokkiniemi & Suomussalmi – and besides, I am pretty sure that the person who has "given" it, must have read Kalevala as well.
I'll try to spare some time to give a translation of that "fragment" of Kullervo's tale (even though his name is not once mentioned in it!)

AKS

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:00 AM

@AKS: Thanks for the explanation! Please do that-- I'd really appreciate it. Also, ahead of time, can I have your permission to quote your translation in my novel?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:17 PM

Here's what I found from The Traditional poetry of the Finns by Comparetti.

p 145 The fundamental rune is the Son of Kaleva's' (or of
Kalervo's) Vengeance. This rune may be said, in a certain
sense, to be double, for it has two very different forms; with

146 this in common, however, that they both treat of ven-
geance. One relates how Kaleva's son, soon after he was
born, rent his swaddling bands, broke his cradle, etc.; how
he was sold to a smith whose wife used him as a shepherd
and gave him a loaf with a stone inside, and how he re-
venged himself by killing her.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 07:39 AM

Refresh. I wonder why AKS thinks "the person who has "given" it, must have read Kalevala as well."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 06:52 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 07:37 AM

On the Lönnrot poems about Kullervo: I've read they were based on three or four separate elements that were combined into one; a poem about the Son of Kaleva/Kalervo, a slave who works as a shepherd and takes his revenge on his mistress after his knife is broken, a poem about Turikkainen or Tuiretuinen or Turo, who seduces his sister and unknowingly causes her death; and a poem about a man who goes off to war and asks his family if they'll cry for him if he dies in action- and only one says yes. Then while he's setting off, he hears of the deaths of all his family, but is only moved at the death of one.

Comparetti (book I quoted in a previous post) mentions four poems. Other sources mention three, which makes me wonder if those stanzas were sung as part of the same rune.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 07:34 PM

Refresh. Hope that AKS gets back to this thread with his translation.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 10:10 AM

Hello, Morwen. The Mudcat is often quite sluggish on weekends. Now that it's Monday morning, at least in some parts of the world, perhaps AKS will get back to you.

As for me, I am now thoroughly confused by Karelia, Kalova, Karjala, Kullervo and Kalevala. However, one thing seems clear to me. If you wish to make a modern tale from the story of the adopted and unwanted boy, you have to re-write the savage ending. In a modern tale, the evil mother would have put the stone in the bread while under the influence of alcohol. You would write in some drinking buddies who cackle with evil glee and encourage her in doing that stupid stunt.

Here's some info on beer in Finland:

"Finland has a long history of beer dating back to the Middle Ages..."Suomalaisen oluen päivä", or the Finnish Beer Day is celebrated on the 13th of October to commemorate the founding of Oy Sinebrychoff Ab (a brewery) and the birth of Finnish beer...Most of the beers brewed in Finland are pale lagers. Finland's standing is 9th in per capita consumption of beer. Finnish people consume a total of 440 ML of beer annually and the trend is increasing by 11.7 633 mL bottles year-on-year per capita."

And that doesn't even begin to touch the evil spells and cruel deeds that would result once people got into vodka!

In modern times the boy wouldn't murder the woman, he would get his 'revenge' by being better than she is. There are many ways he could do that, and that's the beauty of the creative process.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 07:37 PM

@Leeneia: Someone told me that vodka tastes horrible.

Actually, the story's fantasy/cyberpunk, but your idea's still a good one. Thanks!

There's actually a similarity between this tale and older variants of Cinderella. Both Kullervo and Cinderella are of noble or prominent birth and forced to work as servants for surrogate families. Their surrogate mothers ill-treat them, and are killed as punishment.

La Gatta Cenerentola (The Cat Cinderella) has the heroine have two stepmothers. The second one starts out kind but turns out to be much crueller than the first.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 08:02 PM

And re: the confusion. AFAIK, Karjala is the Finnish/Karelian word for Karelia, a border region between Finland and Russia. Kalevala is the collection of folk tales that contains the story of Kullervo.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: AKS
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 09:08 AM

Now please, be patient, folks! Translating – even briefly – is not just putting words after one another, I am working on it! ;-)

naulemmisii (now, let me see):
Karelia / Karjala, explained
Kaleva, could refer to person, but mostly used as a place name, meaning the same as Kalevala, where the ending -la makes it mean place, bigger or smaller, like Karja-la.
Kalova, no such thing! One has to be careful with Finnish vowels, even the unstressed ones are 'fully voiced' and carry meaning (unlike the English ones that only are to fill the space between consonants :-)
Kullervo, a male first name, still in use, might have something in common with kulta 'gold'.

AKS

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 09:57 AM

Thanks, AKS. I'm interested in languages, and Finnish is so different from English. It's intriguing.

Morwen, I'm not a drinker, and to me all booze tastes rather bad, some worse than others. I think vodka smells rather like paint stripper. There are people who imagine that other people won't realize they have been drinking if they stick to vodka. While it's true vodka doesn't have the strong 'dark' flavors of whiskey, I know someone's been drinking it because their breath smells, as I say, like paint stripper.

Some distiller used to advertise their vodka with "It leaves you breathless." Ha!
======
The possibility that the name 'Kullervo' is linked to gold might be a good one to exploit in your retelling. Perhaps he will be denied the chance to become a blacksmith and will become a magical goldsmith instead.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 07:22 PM

@AKS: You explained the other stuff much better than I could! And, like leeneia, I didn't know that! :)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 09:50 PM

'Tis the Mudcat Cafe, realm of sophisticates.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 12:22 AM

@leeneia: Yeah.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: AKS
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 02:54 AM

OK, here's the draft, I have kept the Finnish word order (mostly) – so you get some idea of what word means what.

from Suomen kansan vanhat runot, I/2/945:
(Old Runes of the Finnish Folk)
in Uhtua (now Kalevala), 6th of July 1872
on "Kalevan pojan kosto" 'Kaleva's son's revenge', as "sung" by Arhippa Hilipänpoika Ohvokainen (c. 1820–1890)
collected by A. Berner

Tuo kaunis Kalervon poika        / that beautiful Kalervo's son
Kaupattih on Karjalaha        / was traded (as) is into Karelia
Vienahan Venäjän moalla        / into Viena* on Russian soil
Kahtee kattilah ranihe        / for two worn out kettles
Viiteh viikate kuluhe        / for five dull scythes
Kuutee kuokan ruopivohe        / for six well used grubs

Tuo kaunis Kalervon poika        / that beautiful Kalervo's son
Jopa noin sanoiksi virkki        / right thus into words spoke out
"Kulla työllä uusi orja        / to what labour the new slave (shall be set)
Roavolla rahan alaini?"        / to toil the one worth money

Pantih lapsen katsojiksi        / (he) was set to care the cild
"Syötä lasta, syö itseki        / feed the child, eat yourself
Katso lasta, kaiva silmä"        / watch the child, dig an eye (=be careful)
Syötti lasta, söi itseki        / fed the child, ate himself
Katso lasta, kaivo silmän        / watched the child, dug an eye

Jopa noin sanoiksi virkki        / right thus into words spoke out
"Kull' on työllä uusi orja        / to what labour the new slave
Roavolla rahan alaini?"        / to toil the one worth money

Pantih nuotan soutajiksi        / (he) was set the seine to row
Hänpä näin sanoiksi virkki        / he this into words spoke out
"Soutanenko väen takoa        / shall I row with all/full strength
Vain souan asun mukaha"        / or shall I row as needed (lit. 'according to form')

Vetäjä on Venarin poika        / hauler is Venari's son
Perimies Pelasen poika        / steersman Pelanen's son
Hänpä noin sanoiksi virkki        / he thus into words spoke out
"Mikä siitä soutajasta        / what is that rower
Kuin ei soua väen takoa        / who does not row with all strength
Kuin soutaa asun mukahe"        / but rows as needed

Souti hankat hajalla        / (he) rowed the oarlocks asunder
Levitti lesen venehen        / widened the (whole) boat
Katajaiset koaret katko        / junipery ribs (he) did snap off

Itse noin sanoiksi virkki        / himself so into words spoke out
"Kull' on työllä uusi orja        / to what labour the new slave
Roavolla rahan alaini?"        / to toil the one worth money

Pantih häntä tarpojiksi        / (he) was set to drive the fish (into sein by beating water with a pole)
Hänpä noin sanoiksi virkki        / he so into words spoke out
"Tarponenko väen takoa        / shall I beat with all strength
Vain tarvon asun mukahan?"        / or shall I beat as needed

Vetäjä on Venarin poika        / hauler is Venari's son
Perimies Pelasen poika        / steersman Pelanen's son
Jop' on sanoiksi virkki        / right thus into words spoke out
"Mikä siit' on tarpojasta        / what is that beater
Kun ei tarvo väen takoa        / who does not beat with all strength
Kuin tarpou asun mukaha"        / but beats as needed

Honkan varreksi hotasi        / a pine for helve (he) grabbed
Pani poajen tarpomeksi        / put a flag (of stone) (at the end, to finish a tool called tarvoin)
Tarpo nuotan tappurahe        / beat the seine into (a bundle of) tow
Vejen velliksi sevotti        / water into pap stirred
Kalat liivakse litsotti        / fishes into jelly pounded
Kalojah hän käsin kantoi        / fishes he by hand carried

Itse noin sanoikse virkki        / himself so into words spoke out
"Kull' on työllä uusi orja        / to what labour the new slave
Roavolla rahan alaini?"        / to toil the one worth money

Pantih hänt' kasen ajoho        / (he) was set to cut a kaski**
Leikkai puuta kaksi, kolme        / cutted down trees two three
Itse nousi kannon peähä        / himself rose on (the head of) a stump
"Kuni huuto kuulunohe        / as far away as (my) cry is heard
Sini kaski koatukohe        / thither shall kaski be cut down
Älkä vesa venykkä        / shall no sprig stretch itself
Älkä kanto kasvakka        / shall no stump grow (new sprigs)
Olen hyvän ottakka        / may it take (=grow) good straw
Vain älkä terää tekkä        / (but may it) only no head make
Kasessa Kalervon poijan        / in kaski of Kalervo's son

Itse noin sanoiksi virkki        / himself that into words spoke out
"Kulla työllä uusi orja        / to what labour the new slave
Roavolla rahan alaini?"        / to toil the one worth money

Pantih häntä paimeneksi        / (he) was set to be herdsman
Viijen vitan vartihaksi        / five twigs to guard
Puun kaheksan katsojaksi        / trees eight to watch over
Mäni päivä männiköllä        / went by a day on pine barren
Kului päivä kuusikolla        / passed a day in spruce forest
Vieri vehnä koivikolla        / strolled rascal in birch wood
Karkasi katajikolla        / escaped on junipery (meadow)

Jo emäntä koista huusi        / (already) mistress from home cried
"Aik' on syyvä uuven orjan        / time (it) is to eat for the new slave
Ravita rahan alaisen"        / to foster (himself) the one worth money

Veti veitsehe kivehe        / drove his knife into stone
Karahutti kallivoho        / struck onto rock
"Syöjätär paha emäntä        / ogress evil lady (of the house)
Kiven leipo leipähäni        / a stone baked into my bread
Vehnän peälitse veteli        / wheat over it spread
Vejin veitseni kivehe        / I drove my knife into stone
Karahutin kallivoho"        / struck onto rock

Itse noin sanoiksi virkki        / himself so into words spoke out
"Millä maksan naisen naurun        / with what shall I pay back woman's laughter
Naisen naurun, piian pilkan        / woman's laughter, maiden's mockery
Emännän pahan piännän        / mistress's bad treatment
Millä jaksan, sillä maksan"        / with what I am clever at, with that shall I pay

Jo emäntä koista huuti        / (already) mistress from home cried
"Mist' on paimen pillin soanut        / whence has the herdsman a whistle gotten
Rautivo rahasen torven?"        / the smith a high-priced horn

Jätti lehmäset leholla        / (he) left the cows on the grove
Maion antajat aholla        / milk-givers on the clearing
Hatasarvet hoavikolla        / small-horned ones on aspen grove
Kultasarvet kuusikolla        / gold-horned in spruce forest
Ajoi köllit kotihe        / drove the bruins*** home
Karhut kirjokartanohe        / bears to ornamented mansion

"Oi sie entini emäntä        / oh thou old (pre-existent) mistress
Tule lehmies lypsämähe        / come milk your cows
Roavahis roavittamahe        / your neats to stroke
Vaikeitas valuttamahe!"        / your difficult ones to (make milk) flow
Mäni lehmies lypsämähe        / (she) went her cows to milk
Roavahia rovittamahe        / neats to stroke
Vaikeita valuttamahe        / difficult ones to flow

Susi peällä suimastihe        / a wolf onto her jumped
Karhu peällä koamistihe        / a bear on top rushed
Jalan reijestä revitti        / leg from the thigh on slashed
Käen katkoi kalovehesta        / arm broke upto armpit
Kiskoi karvat kinttuloista        / teared hair off the shanks

Hän noin sanoiksi virkki        / she thus into words spoke out
"Oi Ukko ylijumala        / oh Ukko supreme god
Eli toatto taivahini        / or old man heavenly
Nossa pilvi luotehesta        / raise a cloud from the north-west
Toini kohta koilisesta        / another soon from the north-east
Tapa sie Kalervon poika        / kill thou Kalervo's son
Rakehilla rautasilla        / with hails of iron
Niekloilla teräsnenillä!"        / with nails steel-nosed

Hänpä joutu kuulomassa        / he happened to overhear
Itse noin sanoiksi virkki        / himself thus into words spoke out
"Oi Ukko ylijumala        / oh Ukko supreme god
Toatto taivon valtivoija        / old man heaven's ruler
Nossa pilvi luotehesta        / raise a cloud from the north-west
Toini lännestä lähetä        / another from west send
Vihmu vettä taivosesta        / drizzle water from heaven
Mettä pilvistä pirota        / juice (lit. honey) from clouds sprinkle
Jott' ei tukki tulta ottais        / that log would not take fire
Vänttä veäntäisi savuo        / crooked (firewood) would (not) turn into smoke
Suurena sotakesänä        / in great war summer
Vainovuonna vaikiena."        / in the year of persecution hard

(the rest of the verses in the "fragment" belong rather to "Ison härän runo" 'Big Bull's Rune')


* Viena = Finnish name for the area where northern dialect of Karelian is (was?) spoken, in English White (Sea) Karelia, I think
** kaski = patch of woodland cleared for cultivation by cutting the trees and burning the brush piles
*** bear, (ursus arctos) has numerous euphemisms in Finnish; even "official" karhu /rough, hairy/ is one

have fun
AKS

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 04:06 AM

@AKS: That's pretty good for a draft! :) If that's a draft, I wanna see the final version! Do you mind if I use that translation in the story I mentioned?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 04:07 AM

Thanks, btw.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: AKS
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 06:34 AM

Art welcome, ME.
You may use it in any other way except: if it is "put to music and/or performed as is", you need a permission from Teosto (Finnish Composers' Copyright Society, www.teosto.fi).

AKS

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 07:37 AM

@AKS: Incidentally, what made you think the singer had probably read the printed version in the Kalevala as well?

BTW, IMO the story is one of the saddest folktales dealing with orphanhood- folk stories about abused orphans are quite common, but this one is especially heartwrenching. Even Kaujjarjuk (Alaskan/Canadian/Greenlandic Kullervo equivalent) and Cinderella received a bit of kindness. Then again, I think this is a folktale on "how to treat orphans."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 12:51 PM

AKS, thank you very much for the translation. That must have been a lot of work!

I enjoyed the earthy humor of him wrecking everything by working as hard as he could. There's a lesson for us all there.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 07:10 PM

@leeneia: I never thought of it that way. (don't know if AKS does) AFAIK, that was the result of his magical abilities. And IMO this tale is the saddest one about orphans ever- the low status of the orphan in many traditional societies meant that they were vulnerable to bad treatment.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: AKS
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 03:49 AM

Be my guest, L.

And yes, Kullervo really is the sad figure of Finnish epic.

On the other hand, some of his actions – esp. here – remind me of Tuhma-Jussi* 'stupid John'; both are told to do this or that, without first showing/teaching them how to!** The difference being that Jussi in the end turns out to be the successful one, whereas Kullervo is not.

I think Kullervo quietly accepts his share until the point when he finds the stone in his bread: "Perkele, I may be a slave and a fool, ok, but this goes too far now" and the hell is loose!

* a comic character in fairy tales, youngest of three brothers, his deeds always are topsy-turvy
** a method still in use when I was a child :(

AKS

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 04:47 AM

@AKS: Look at this
The story above is the Alaskan/Canadian equivalent of Kullervo. In fact, one version I found here

begins: "A boy and his sister during a seal hunt on the sea ice were cut off from people. No-one could help them as their ice pan drifted away. Their parents and older brother gave them up for dead. But this was not so- after many days the wind blew the ice pan near the shore of a strange land where people lived. Each was adopted by a different family and this is how they came to live among strangers."

In fact, after Kaujjarjuk got his supernatural strength and killed the people who abused him, I thought his sister lived in a separate village or something and he was going to wander across the tundra, meet a girl on the way to finding his sister, marry her and then find out she was his sister and then they'd both commit suicide.

That idea is horrifying. All the more because some people probably still do it today.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 05:04 AM

*their*

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 09:20 AM

Another note: This folk version's different from the Kalevala version in that in the folk version, Kullervo ruins all the tasks (caring for a baby, threshing grain, cutting trees, fishing with a seiner) at Ilmarinen's house, not at his uncle Untamo's house.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 12:42 PM

Kullervo is clearly a supernatural figure, not an ordinary orphan. How else could a boy have the strengh to beat a net back to tow (linen fibers) and all the fish in the water into jelly?

Perhaps in the Kalevala, as in Shakespeare's Tempest, the magical beings are bereft of human emotions such as compassion, love, and guilt. That may be why he revenges the stone in the bread so savagely.

Attn pedents: maybe 'revenge' has never been a transitive verb before. It is now.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 06:29 PM

@leeneia: The line between "ordinary human" and "supernatural figure" isn't always clear, though. Orphans with incredible supernatural























































































































@leeneia: The line isn't always clear, though. Humans with incredible powers are common in fol0klore or mythology, and often they are orphans or outcasts of some kind. Incidentally, am I the only one who noticed the parallels with Cinderella in the Kalevala version? Hero/heroine is mistreated by their evil foster family/stepfamily and is turned into a slave when they had previously been of high rank? (Cinderella, of course, fits that description but Kalevala Kullervo doesn't really.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 06:43 PM

Ignore the line at the top of the post

*folklore*

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 05:57 PM

And of course there's all of the expressions dealing with orphans... the Guerze, an ethnic group in Guinea, refer to durable shoes as "orphan's shoes." The idea of the cruelly treated orphan seems to be very common.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 05:13 PM

Yes, it does. The orphan and the step-child are often mistreated in folklore. Hansel and Gretel and Snow-white come to mind.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 07:59 PM

I think that that goes back to the vulnerability of the orphan who doesn't have family ties and needs to work for their keep.

Interestingly, in that folk version, the curse isn't that the evil wife will die, it's that for the year, but that the firewood won't ever catch light because of the constant rain :)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 28 Apr 13 - 12:29 AM

*Ignore the "but that".

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 28 Apr 13 - 08:22 PM

BTW, IMO this is an example of how some oral tales are actually LESS brutal than the literary versions. (notice how the boy doesn't pray to Ukko to kill the wife, just to make the firewood not catch fire. Also, in the literary version created by Lönnrot, Ilmarinen's wife makes a series of promises to Kullervo before cursing him.

In the literary version, too, there's a scene of the woman baking a stone into the bread, which doesn't exist in this song version (and maybe other variants) The folk version lets us infer that she baked it in, it doesn't show us outright.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 29 Apr 13 - 02:39 AM

Is "Syöjätär" meant literally or metaphorically? eg. is the implication that the mistress is literally a witch, or that she's a witch metaphorically?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 29 Apr 13 - 06:19 PM

refresh. Syöjätär often appears as a wicked stepmother in folktales from Karelia where the hero/heroine must look after her horses.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 30 Apr 13 - 03:40 PM

All these orphans remind me of one of my favorite fairy tales when I was a kid . It was about a Russian girl who was driven out by her stepmother and finds herself in the cottage of Baba Yaga. The cottage is on chicken legs, which gives you some idea of what Baba Yaga's like.

The girl has a little, magical doll whose eyes twinkle and which speaks when given a tiny offering of beer and bread. Is the doll her mother's spirit? Could be.

At one point the doll says something I have remembered all my life. It said, "The morning is wiser than the evening." More than once in my life I have found that a problem I couldn't solve at night had become clear by morning. And also, anger that wanted to be expressed in the evening had changed into an intelligent plan for changing things by morning.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 30 Apr 13 - 06:03 PM

@leeneia: I think that'd be Vasilisa The Beautiful. Baba Yaga's counterpart in these folktales is either an old crone (akka) or Syöjätär.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 01 May 13 - 05:44 PM

Refresh.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 May 13 - 11:31 AM

Yes, that's it! How did you find that out?

By the way, I checked on Amazon, and that set of books (the Junior Classics) came with Collier's Encyclopedia. Our set was the 1938 version. Someone is asking $200 for that set today - a set in fine condition.

There's another thing I remember from 'Vasilisa the Beautiful.' Baba Yaga mixes poppy seeds with dirt and orders the little girl to retrieve every tiny seed. The magic doll organizes an army of ants, who expertly get every seed out for her.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 02 May 13 - 06:38 PM

@leeneia: I read it on the SurLalune fairy tales page :)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 02 May 13 - 07:47 PM

Interestingly, Syöjätär can also be used to describe an evil or unpleasant woman, though I like the idea of Kalervonpoika as a witch's slave!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 May 13 - 11:35 AM

Are you familiar with Mussorgsky's music about Baba Yaga? (I bet you are.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PjIiavyAag

The music makes me think that the chicken legs aren't holding still. Creepy!

This is good music to play when you're angry about something. Put it on and turn the volume up good and high. In our house there was no carpeting on the stairs, so it really helped to stomp up and down the stairs at the same time.
===============
"Syöjätär can also be used to describe an evil or unpleasant woman..."

Let us bear in mind that the line between a witch and a woman getting old, demented, ill-tempered or crippled could be dangerously thin in the days of yore.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 04 May 13 - 01:13 AM

@leeneia: Yes.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 04 May 13 - 11:32 PM

But, oddly it doesn't say an unpleasant old woman... just an unpleasant woman.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 06 May 13 - 04:55 AM

And, apparently there are also versions with references to the Mistress of Pohjola.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 06 May 13 - 12:17 PM

Yes, that's true. Unfortunately, young or middle-aged women were sometimes accused of witchcraft too. But most of the time, a witch is old, I think.

This is not related to folkore such as we are discussing here, but it's a good thing to be aware of: the religious page of my newspaper had an article by a minister who visited a village in Ghana to which women accused of witchcraft are banished. I can't recall all the pathetic reasons for which women are banished, but here's one I recall clearly:

A woman can be labelled a witch and driven from her village and her family if people around her get sick from something, but she doesn't.

Isn't that terrible? Other villagers might have eaten some spoiled food which she didn't eat, but the villages don't know anything about microbes and food poisoning, and so she loses her home and family. Or the other villagers might have suffered a viral infection to which she had already developed immunity.

Stories like this make you realize the value of education.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 06 May 13 - 11:04 PM

Children are burned as witches by their fundamentalist families in parts of Nigeria.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Karelian folk song: orphan boy's revenge
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 May 13 - 01:11 PM

That is so terrible and so completely unnecessary.