BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 11:57 AM

All sort of inspirational sounding, Jack; but all a bit nebulous in actual intellectual content, it seems to me.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 01:56 PM

He wasn't trying to argue or to impress M~. He was trying to inspire.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 02:22 PM

""of course i also think theists have caused much of the war, child abuse and pollution in our world.they forgibe thenselves anything, child rape, war and toture, while never forgiving anyone asking obvious questions""

I do wish that debaters would refrain from aligning "Theists" with the followers of religious organisation.

As one of those Theists, I can confirm that we are set apart from Christians, Muslims, Protestants and all the other groups whose stock in trade is telling their followers what to believe, by the simple fact that we know the difference between "Faith" and "Religion", and don't follow the latter.

It is precisely for this reason that I say I am more at home talking to Atheists, for they are almost sure that there is no God, while I am almost sure there is.

The certainties of the various religions permits of no fruitful discussion.

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 02:31 PM

I know he was trying to inspire, Jack. My point is that he failed, because his exposition and content were so woolly and imprecise. All part of that 'air of having triumphantly demonstrated what has merely been strenuously asserted' that John Gross described [writing of another critic] as 'faintly comic'. He was a noted academic, for heaven's sake. One should expect some intellectual, not merely vaguely 'inspirational', argument from him, surely?

A bit like an art critic saying, "ooh, aah, this is beautiful" over & over again. I should never bother to look at any art on such a one's recommendation or say-so.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 03:44 PM

Mrs.Brown's reflections to the Mormons

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 06:44 PM

But no mere mere Christian, he (C.S.Lewis) became arguably the leading popular Christian apologist of the 20th century, a defender and explainer of the faith who was hailed by popes, Protestant evangelists, politicians, and other world leaders for his brilliant yet accessible campaign against the rising tide of unbelief in the modern world.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/051212/12lewis.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 12:05 AM

Well, Jack; he might have inspired popes, Protestant evangelists, politicians, and other world leaders - and you.

But his woolly irrational assertiveness sure as hell didn't inspire me.

Sorry and all that...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 03:54 AM

Here's a reflection on religion and atheism.

Which is least offensive to our self styled religious people, atheism or The Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster?

(Mind you, not The Reformed Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster. Chism inducing bastards. )

Is it any religion that is illogically defended here or just one particular flavour? I think some people are quicker to defend Christianity on these threads rather than religion. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Dean of Rochester
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 11:12 AM

Good grief people, believe whatever you want to believe, just don't hurt anyone else. We're all on this planet together.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 11:44 AM

This, and the endlessly proliferating similar threads, seem to have got the 'religiosos' going in my part of the world (Manchester, UK). The other day I was approached by two Mormon "Elders" (they were both about 20!) in the city centre. These be-suited young men said that they were from Utah. I welcomed them to the city but, before they started preaching, told them that I wasn't religious and that if they hoped to convert me to their cause they would have to prove that God existed. They said that they couldn't offer such proof and after a further exchange of pleasantries they drifted off, presumably to attempt to convert other, more biddable, Mancunian 'heathens'.

On Saturday I noted an earnest looking bloke, in a local town centre, attempting to inform passing shoppers about "the-good-news-about-this-man-Jesus" ... or something. Passing shoppers ignored him (don't blame them!) and, apart from noting his presence, so did I.

Then, this morning, as I was proceeding towards the local supermarket, to do the weekly shop, I noted two "evangelists" with literature (presumably, telling "the good news etc, etc.")on a trestle table. They too were being ignored.

What is the matter with these people? They completely baffle me!

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 12:49 PM

musket - just for myself,i dont feel obliged to defend religion in general.as a christian believing Jesus to be the only way to God , it is only the christian faith that i am at all qualified to testify to.the religions that do believe in God do however have something to go on imo.

shimrod - i agree that street evangelists often seem to be achieving nothing,but i do know that sometimes people do stop and chat to them and occasionally conversions follow in course of time.either way people have the opportunity to listen and discuss,and the christians responsibility and desire is to please God rather than people anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 01:34 PM

pete. Thank you for that observation. My note was that some people are saying religion when they mean their own religion. Your point that your religion is the only one you are using in debates is a point some others should listen to.

In the same way I cannot comment on behalf of atheists as I have no idea what people mean when they attest to being one. It could mean irreligious same as me or it could infer a positive stance with inferred structure.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 03:09 PM

I have never claimed to speak on behalf of any religion. I don't evenbelong to one in any organized or group sense.

Musket I can't recall you having claimed to speak for or about atheists as group. You have been more about trying to poke holes in specific arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 04:14 PM

Dogmas of science.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 04:21 PM

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 06:53 PM

Dogmas of science? I got through 1 min 26sec of that before I concluded irrevocably that here was a demented man talking through his bottom. Shame on you, Jack. By the way, it's always been wacko, never whacko. You couldn't even get that right. Anyway, by posting that tripe you proved the soubriquet to be entirely appropriate. Cheers! Now get yourself back to the Very Silly column. pete's missing you.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 07:01 PM

Did anyone bother to look at the links to Walter Kaufmann I posted up there ^? There's enough in the 2nd one to see some really important distinctions in this issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 08:03 PM

Good grief people, believe whatever you want to believe, just don't hurt anyone else. We're all on this planet together.

But you can hurt people with your religion. The world is full of 'em. We'll get the world you want when people of faith can be persuaded to keep it strictly to themselves. And away from the kids especially.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 08:07 PM

Bill there is a lot of reading in those links, none of it current. I had a look at The Faith of the Heretic. The comparison of Jesus to other religious figures to see which is the greatest is not interesting to me. I don't claim that Jesus is the greatest role model or speaker or whatever, just that he is the one for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:23 PM

"I got through 1 min 26sec of that before I concluded"

Yes your closed-mindedness is your best feature.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 05:04 AM

"I don't claim that Jesus is the greatest role model or speaker or whatever, just that he is the one for me."

You're welcome to him. Although to be fair, (assuming even 1% of that attributed to him is accurate) he was about love, peace, tolerating etc. Just a pity none of that was ever done in his name. Turning people into Christians at any price seems to be the history of that founded using him as the big chief.

I wouldn't mind a role model who could turn water into wine, but as nobody in history has ever done that, other than by the traditional means which, lets face it, isn't worth recording, I'll have to keep looking for inspiration elsewhere. Might buy a mirror....

After all, if you want a hero in human guise, you need to look for humans. Heroes in the mind have a habit of being too easy to agree with, and that would never test you enough. I wonder if that is the draw of religion? Easy cop out?

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 09:46 AM

If you see a police car in the mirror you might wish that the good Lord would turn your wine into water.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 12:51 PM

why would anyone follow a religion that hurts other people?

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 12:55 PM

The Aztecs cut out peoples hearts but it seemed they thought that was for the greater good.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 01:01 PM

Aztecs weren't good travellers though, so they couldn't get in the same league as The Crusades, The Inquisition, genital mutilation, terrorism, dismissing contraception or child abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 01:06 PM

Again, Musket sans logic. You are saying that they could not travel far enough to engage in child abuse? Pray tell us, without children, how did they reproduce?

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Musket sans sin
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 02:30 PM

Zzzzzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 09:54 AM

belief-in-an-angry-god-associated-with-variety-of-mental-illnesses/

Interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 11:33 AM

I don't have a dog in this hunt but the ruling has some interesting implications about the idea of religious freedom.

IDF Rabbinate shows non-Jews the door in mezuzah book ruling

"The idea that views non-Jews as having equal rights in the state goes against the opinion of the Torah, and no representative of the state is authorized to act against the will of the Torah."




http://www.councilforthenationalinterest.org/israelpalestineconflict/missingheadlines/item/2691-idf-rabbinate-shows-non-jews-the

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 05:15 PM

http://www.musicismyreligion.eu/

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 09:57 AM

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-april-24-2013/the-golden-rage

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 10:21 AM

Bassem Youssef on dogma

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 10:28 AM

Just like tumbleweed in a ghost town.... except in Seaman Stayns case... seaweed

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 10:55 AM

The Golden Rule

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 11:32 AM

the link on angry god/mental disorder was no where near as definite as the title of the article might suggest.i would suppose that a one sided view of God that ommitted his grace and forgiveness would be detrimental to mental health,especially for anyone already unstable.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 11:42 AM

From the story pete refers to.

" a belief in a forgiving, loving God is associated with positive psychological traits, "almost protecting against psychopathology," she told Raw Story. "

Is that what you were talking about pete?

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 01:25 PM

more or less jack.it might have been billy graham that suggested that many mental health problems might disappear if some could know forgiveness.such a conviction no doubt gave rise to newtons "amazing grace"

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Musket sans sin
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 02:03 PM

Err.. and I ask this of pete or anybody with a knowledge and experience of interpreting religion;

In terms of mental health, what would you be asking to be forgiven for?

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 02:32 PM

Health benefits of religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 05:22 PM

I am staggered!!

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 07:34 PM

Well, pete,the angry/callous/uncaring God, if there is a God, is an unassailable fact. All that death, disease, pain, fear, predation, starvation and waste of life in the struggle for existence condemn him immediately. After all, he's all-powerful so he didn't have to organise things that way. On the other hand, his grace and forgiveness can be no more than a speculation. When are we going to see it, and, when we do, will he be able to tell us why he's so partial in the way he doles it out?

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 08:43 PM

i am uncertain as to whether musket misconstrues my post or is confirming that some atheists have no sense of wrong.
i suppose they have no final authority to determine what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 08:59 PM

I think that is what he calls "taking the piss." I don't think it is meant to be taken seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 01:15 AM

Read the post Jack. I asked for anybody with a knowledge to answer. . I don't recall lifting the sheet off your cage.

Pete. I genuinely accept the concept of requiring a sense of shame at being wrong and finding forgiveness from peers as the road to putting things right. My question was linking a mental health issue which is a medical condition with the need for feeling you need forgiving? Sure, if your irrational actions harm others it would be nice to acknowledge this in more lucid moments but I just want to know if there is any whiff of God's punishment in the medical diagnosis?

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 02:54 AM

It seems quite clear to me that if you believe in a god, believing s/he's a nice deity who's looking out for you is going to have a much better impact on your mental health than believing s/he's angry, vengeful and out to get you. Also all that smiting can get a bit stressful.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 03:23 AM

Well Done Musket..! yet another who is fed up of the arrogant posings and self opiniated tripe of old Barnacle balls. Yet when he is called to account he gets more abusive..and starts cutting and pasting the rules...What is that all about Jerk The Sailor?

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 07:20 AM

Yes Spleen Cringe, True enough. Also, I think pathology might be drawn to the God that suits it or people with issues might project them onto their perception of God. I think someone with paranoia think that God is out to punish them. A person who has been abused might see the qualities of their abuser in God. etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 08:12 AM

What a load of psuedo intellectual claptrap!!! You have really excelled yerself in this mumbo jumbo semi digested claptrap.

Your grip on religion, philophesy and the real word is as flaky as you posing as a mariner.

People with paronoia think that EVERYONE is out to punish them.

Oh, and your latest gem "A person who has been abused might see the qualities of their abuser in God. etc."

Would six million jews see them qualities in the SS of their God?

Go way and play with your duck in the bath, you maritime fraud, everyone is finding you out for the buffoon you are

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Musket
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 10:05 AM

It occurs to me that to some people, as shown on this and similar threads lately, equate either all actions as explained by their religion, or others as saying all actions have nothing to do with religion.

So... is this Christianity or something called christianity which isn't? And who gets to decide?

How to spot the Anti Christ American style

Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Musket
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 10:12 AM

And 100