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BS: Boston Lockdown

Songwronger 25 Apr 13 - 09:37 PM
Don Firth 25 Apr 13 - 10:13 PM
Q 25 Apr 13 - 10:26 PM
Rapparee 25 Apr 13 - 10:39 PM
Stilly River Sage 25 Apr 13 - 11:26 PM
Songwronger 25 Apr 13 - 11:29 PM
Rapparee 26 Apr 13 - 12:16 AM
Jeri 26 Apr 13 - 12:43 AM
Elmore 26 Apr 13 - 12:46 AM
Don Firth 26 Apr 13 - 01:27 AM
GUEST,Eliza 26 Apr 13 - 03:58 AM
Dead Horse 26 Apr 13 - 04:56 AM
Bettynh 26 Apr 13 - 12:21 PM
Pete Jennings 26 Apr 13 - 12:31 PM
Megan L 26 Apr 13 - 12:36 PM
Q 26 Apr 13 - 01:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Apr 13 - 02:16 PM
Jack the Sailor 26 Apr 13 - 02:54 PM
Don Firth 26 Apr 13 - 02:58 PM
Songwronger 26 Apr 13 - 08:06 PM
Joe Offer 26 Apr 13 - 08:40 PM
Don Firth 26 Apr 13 - 09:30 PM
Don Firth 26 Apr 13 - 10:25 PM
Joe Offer 26 Apr 13 - 10:30 PM
Songwronger 26 Apr 13 - 10:58 PM
Don Firth 26 Apr 13 - 11:59 PM
Songwronger 27 Apr 13 - 12:44 AM
Don Firth 27 Apr 13 - 01:54 AM
akenaton 27 Apr 13 - 02:18 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 27 Apr 13 - 05:28 AM
Elmore 27 Apr 13 - 09:37 AM
Bettynh 27 Apr 13 - 12:34 PM
jacqui.c 27 Apr 13 - 12:53 PM
GUEST,Jack Campin 27 Apr 13 - 01:04 PM
Don Firth 27 Apr 13 - 02:09 PM
Don Firth 27 Apr 13 - 05:58 PM
Richard Bridge 27 Apr 13 - 06:55 PM
Don Firth 27 Apr 13 - 09:35 PM
Songwronger 28 Apr 13 - 07:26 PM
Don Firth 28 Apr 13 - 10:03 PM
Songwronger 28 Apr 13 - 11:03 PM
Don Firth 28 Apr 13 - 11:11 PM
Elmore 29 Apr 13 - 12:14 AM
Don Firth 29 Apr 13 - 12:24 AM
Q 29 Apr 13 - 12:36 PM
Don Firth 29 Apr 13 - 02:35 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Apr 13 - 05:08 AM
Songwronger 30 Apr 13 - 06:56 PM
Elmore 30 Apr 13 - 08:31 PM
akenaton 01 May 13 - 04:03 AM
mayomick 01 May 13 - 08:07 AM
Songwronger 01 May 13 - 10:19 PM
Don Firth 01 May 13 - 10:35 PM
Elmore 01 May 13 - 11:19 PM
Elmore 01 May 13 - 11:26 PM
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Subject: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Songwronger
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 09:37 PM

THE BOSTON LOCKDOWN AND THE BILL OF RIGHTS

With the implementation of a state of military siege against the population of Boston last week, the American ruling class has crossed a historical, legal and political Rubicon. The die is cast and the sun is setting on the democratic forms of rule that have existed in the United States for the past two centuries.

What history will remember as most significant about the events in Boston will not be the bombing near the marathon's finish line or the perpetrators or their motives. What will be remembered instead will be the unprecedented military lockdown of an entire major American city, with military vehicles in the streets and heavily armed soldiers going house to house—tromping through living rooms, bedrooms and kitchens, staring down their assault rifles at terrified, barefoot families in their pajamas.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/04/25/bill-a25.html


THE NEW YORK TIMES AND THE STATE OF SIEGE IN BOSTON

The New York Times published an editorial Monday that not only endorses last week's police-military lockdown of Boston, but suggests that it was entirely consistent with democratic procedures. In "How to Handle a Terrorism Case," the Times makes the absurd argument that the operation that led to the arrest of alleged Boston Marathon bomber Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was a vindication of "the fundamental rights that distinguish this country from authoritarian regimes."

In the editorial, the leading organ of the "liberal" establishment shamelessly falsifies what actually occurred, omitting any mention of the use of National Guard troops, SWAT teams, machine-gun mounted armored vehicles and Black Hawk helicopters. It makes no mention of the order for some 1 million residents to remain in their homes or the warrantless house-to-house searches carried out by heavily armed police.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/04/25/time-a25.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 10:13 PM

More of your special blend of bovine excrement, Songwronger.

Not knowing initially that the bombing was the work of only two young men, the authorities issued the order for people to stay home for their own protection and so they wouldn't be inadvertently interfering with tracking down whoever was responsible.

To have done otherwise would have been dereliction of duty on the part of the police and other authorities to protect and safeguard the public.

And if they HAD NOT done so, you would have been on their case for THAT!!

Songwronger, don't you realize how much of a fool you are making of yourself with your perpetual hate-filled attempts to trash President Obama?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Q
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 10:26 PM

Not only did the lockdown serve to protect the citizen, but it closed off escape routes.
A great effort by the city of Boston and all the law agencies involved.

How any sane person could quarrel with the lockdown is beyond me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 10:39 PM

I suppose you'd rather martial law was imposed? A dusk to dawn curfew, with passes and checkpoints? Such as was done during the riots in LA, Chicago and Detroit during the riots in the 1960s? Or such as was imposed (with "shoot to kill" orders) in SF in 1906 and up in the Coeur d'Alene mines during the labor unrest of the 1900s?

I've seen streets full of military and police vehicles, with imposed curfews and all the rest. YOU obviously don't know what you're talking about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 11:26 PM

The thing to do is to stop feeding trolls. Songwronger is a troll. He starts these threads to stir people up. So don't feed the troll. Let it drift off of the page and out of sight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Songwronger
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 11:29 PM

Crime happens every day. Let's lockdown all cities all the time so the bad guys don't get away.

You're being sold a protection racket by the elite. And they love you for it. Be sure to turn in your guns when they tell you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 12:16 AM

Songwringer, try this simple thing:

1. Grab both of your ears with the appropriate hands: right hand to right ear, left hand to left ear.

2. Give a long, steady pull.

3. When you hear a loud POP your head will have come out of your ass.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 12:43 AM

Rap, if trolls couldn't count on you and a couple other regulars to "service" them, I wonder if we wouldn't be infested with them. Thanks to you guys, they aren't going anywhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Elmore
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 12:46 AM

Nonsense. Lived in the Boston area most of my life. We are not pawns in the game. What state are you from, Songwronger? State of confusion?


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 01:27 AM

One wonders whether to respond to this sort of asininity or just simply let it go. The problem is that if someone doesn't challenge the allegations made by conspiracy theorists and hate-mongers like Songwronger and couple of others here, there are, unfortunately, some here who might actually buy what they're trying to peddle.

I don't like to waste my time countering nonsense like this, but I think that when someone makes egregiously untrue statements, someone needs to talk sense and show the silly allegations for what they are.

Songwronger may just be a troll, trying to get a rise out of people. BUT, I tend to suspect that he really believes some of the nonsense he posts. Among my acquaintances, there is one woman who thinks she's being spied on by hummingbird size drones fluttering outside her windows (where, oddly enough, she has a windowbox full of flowers). And another person who is selling her house and moving to the eastern part of the state because she's heard from some late-night radio nut-case that Mt. Rainier is going to erupt (if it does erupt, the town she's moving to is downwind and she'll be buried in the ashfall!).

They've been fed this tripe and are naïve enough to have come to believe it!

Yes, Songwronger. Crime does happen every day. Someone robs a convenience store, a couple of kids hotwire a car and go joyriding, someone burgles a house when the occupants are on vacation, someone snitches the newspaper off your front porch. . . .

But a half-dozen or so people dead, over 200 people injured, some with minor injuries, some very serious, such as losing limbs, as a result of a bombing at an event attended by thousands of people and obviously intended to kill and maim as many people as possible. That tends to really get the attention of the law enforcement authorities.

Something like the Boston Marathon bombing is of a completely different magnitude from what might be called "every day crime" and calls for extraordinary measures. The law enforcement agencies did exactly what they should have done.

"The Elite?"

Is that something like the "Illuminati?" How about "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion?" Aliens, perhaps? Or is the legendary Atlantis about to rise to the surface and we'll be invaded by Gill Men?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 03:58 AM

I don't rate the dreadful events in Boston as mere 'crime', I call them appalling terrorism. As far as the Police and other suthorities knew, there could have been a whole battalion of bombers hiding in their city, with bombs and dangerous devices at the ready. If I lived there, I'd be so reassured to know that the Police etc had the situation contained and were steadily working through each area to catch the monsters. After it was over, the Bostonians I saw on TV weren't raging in anger at the Lockdown, they were dancing around joyfully in relief. I think Boston deserves a huge accolade for the firm and decisive way they dealt with this atrocity. People often 'hate' Police/Military powers, until they desperately need their aid. Then they're favourite!


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Dead Horse
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 04:56 AM

'Appalling terrorism' is when it happens on or near your turf.
When it happens far far away the good people of Boston support it.
NORAID


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Bettynh
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 12:21 PM

It's spooky, I'll admit that. All those empty streets and uniformed men rushing around in special vehicles. My first thought was the hunt for Montag in Fahrenheit 451 (which in the movie was entirely for the TV audience). But it's not unprecedented. Google "empty streets" for most major cities and you'll find pictures of New York, Chicago, Boston and others - battened down usually for a stowstorm or hurricane. People have learned that it works - when traffic was allowed in New York during a storm this winter the Long Island Expressway during a storm this winter the end result was a parking lot of cars with people needing rescue and then a tow zone that took days to clear. Boston learned that lesson in 1978. Give it a day. Stay home. That said, there were no guards demanding that people go inside. Most pictures of "empty streets" show a few pedestrians, usually attached to dogs that needed to go OUT. In Boston, there were small groups of students foraging for a meal as well. In the uncertainty of that day, it wasn't possible for life to continue as normal. They were defusing bombs and searching for an unknown number of people who had killed without warning twice in a week. House-to-house searching was voluntary and methodical. They missed searching the home with the boat by a couple blocks (never underestimate the running range of a 19 year old adrenalated guy). And, of course, the streets were empty for the movement of broadcast vehicles as well. What you don't see is the size of the hoard BEHIND all those TV cameras.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 12:31 PM

Sensible move if you ask me and, as Rap says, preferable to martial law being imposed. I said to the missus at the time that you've got to give it to the Americans: they certainly don't mess about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Megan L
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 12:36 PM

Bettynh there is a very old postcard which shows two pictures of Aberdeen(Scotland) the top one shows the empty streets the lower the streets crammed with people the the label below the top picture reads "Aberdeen of a flag day(Street collection for charity) the label for the lower reads "And on a house collection day"


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Q
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 01:08 PM

Personally, I would remove "member" Songwronger from mudcat and stop all his posts.
This is not likely with the present setup.

Don Firth suggests challenging these insane posts and responding with sensible argument. I have sometimes done this as I have here, mostly reflexive action on my part, but only mental incompetents would believe his posts.

Mudcat regulators, the only way to stop his garbage is to ban him from posting, and careful elimination of "guest' posts from others of his ilk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 02:16 PM

The other way would be to void taking the bait.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 02:54 PM

I'm sorry to hear about the lock being down. I didn't even know they had a canal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 02:58 PM

Kevin, I agree with that. Let the twit dangle there, twisting in the wind.

The only problem with that is that the pronouncements of people like Songwronger and his tiny coterie of sycophants are made up of gross misinformation (which SW tries to support with documentation, usually from crackpot web sites), and as I pointed out in my previous post, unless someone sets the record straight, there are some poor souls out there who are naive enough to believe it.

And some of them vote.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Songwronger
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 08:06 PM

In deference to the people who think of themselves as "liberal" here (which is most of you), I try to post information from liberal sources. And if you'll notice, the original post refers to articles from the World Socialist Website. That's pretty liberal. And even THEY are telling you that the constitution was egregiously violated in Boston. They mark it as a milestone in the conditioning of the U.S. populace. The Rubicon was crossed.

The Boston incident accomplished what it was designed to do; Americans were shown troops on the street, police barging into homes, and a million people being told they couldn't come out their front doors. Also, there was the money shot of the man in the boat. From that one photo most of you will now believe that we need more cameras, and cameras mounted on drones. Mission accomplished.

The Running of the Bullshit is the most on-target thing I've read about the marathon incident so far.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 08:40 PM

I suppose this wasn't technically martial law, but it seemed like martial law to most of us. What's the difference? Martial Law is an interesting topic. It's not specifically allowed by the U.S. Constitution, so I suppose the legal absolutists will scream about it even in situations like this where it makes absolute sense - you just can't have civilian gawkers in the way of a possible shootout.

http://constitution.findlaw.com/article2/annotation09.html has some interesting comments, as does Wikipedia.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 09:30 PM

Megan McArdle, special correspondent for Newsweek writes:

"Many progressives, and especially, many libertarians, are criticizing this [the Boston lockdown] as an overreaction that involved immense intrusions into personal liberty. An overreaction it may have been, but I'm less worried about the liberty aspect, because as far as I can tell, compliance with the shutdown was pretty much entirely voluntary. I haven't seen any complaints about jackbooted police officers forcing people back into their homes when they tried to come out, and I have heard reports from folks who drove into the office without getting hassled. I'd imagine that most people were quite willing to stay inside for a day if that would help the police capture the marathon bombers."

I reiterate:   If the authorities had NOT done what they did to safeguard the citizens of Boston and facilitate the apprehension of the bombers, Songwronger would be up in arms criticizing them for THAT.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 10:25 PM

Songwronger, I think your idea of what Liberals are all about is more than just a little bit warped.

I consider myself a Liberal—a Classical Liberal—and I do not consider Socialists to be Liberal in nearly the same sense. Nor do most other Liberals that I know.

Classical Liberalism advocates civil liberties and political freedom, limited government, rule of law, and legally regulated Capitalism.

Classical Liberalism adopts Thomas Hobbes's theory of government, that governments are created by individuals to protect themselves from each another. Including the machinations of the very wealthy, which is the situation that prevails today.

A lot of people throw words like Liberal, Conservative, Socialist, Communist, Fascist, and other political terms around without knowing the least bit about what they mean. There is much more to it than the way you're tossing the term around.

I'd recommend that you get a good book on political science and read it carefully.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 10:30 PM

I like your definition of a "classical" liberal, Don. It's a good one, far removed from all the name-calling and mud-slinging we hear these days. I think a "classical" liberal could also be called a "rational" liberal. There used to be "rational" conservatives once upon a time, but they all got scared away by the Tea Party and the Internet and FoxNews.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Songwronger
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 10:58 PM

Something similar has happened to America's liberals. They backed Obama heavily, and he has demonstrated publicly now that he is no liberal. Just the opposite. He's a fascist. So, America's liberals are persevering in their support of a fascist president. The phenomenon is a good example of belief perseverance. When you publicly support something and then it is publicly demonstrated to be erroneous, you can either accept that you were wrong or you can persevere in the belief. Unfortunately, most of America's so-called "liberals" are supporting fascism now instead of working to defeat it. Sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 11:59 PM

Songwronger, you're raving!

Barack Obama is NOT a Fascist! Not even remotely.

Read a book!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Songwronger
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 12:44 AM

Belief perseverance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 01:54 AM

Not "belief," Songwronger. Knowledge.

The one point where I initially differed with Classical Liberalism is that it tended to lean heavily toward what it called a "free market," or essentially unregulated Capitalism. We learned the danger of that in the stock market crash of 1929 and the subsequent Great Depression. Franklin Roosevelt got us out of that with his initiation of regulatory agencies such as the Securities and Exchange Commission and several others, along with his work programs like the WPA and the CCC, to get money back into circulation—not by "bailouts," but by putting money (wages) into the hands of poor and previously unemployed people, knowing that they would have to spend it right away on necessities.

Within recent years, Reagan, in the 1980s essentially castrated the regulatory agencies, allowing the financial institutions to go back to their practices pre-FDR. And we're seeing the results of that now.

So I am very much in favor of efficient, functioning regulatory agencies.

Another point where Classical Liberalism has gone astray is that much of the sound philosophy and economic principles have morphed into Libertarianism—not far from the complete laissez faire stance of Ayn Rand. The Tea Party is the non-intellectual branch of that belief.

So I am most certainly not a "pure" Classical Liberal. They have changed their position. I have not.

I have thought about my political position, and I'm still thinking about it. And furthermore, I know what the terms (Liberal, Conservative, Socialist, Fascist, et al, mean, and something of the history of each one and how they work—or don't work—in practice.

You, Songwronger, are demonstrating that you don't even know what the words you are using even mean.

READ A BOOK! READ SEVERAL BOOKS!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 02:18 AM

"Within recent years, Reagan, in the 1980s essentially castrated the regulatory agencies, allowing the financial institutions to go back to their practices pre-FDR. And we're seeing the results of that now.

When areas of Capitalism become uncompetitive in the new "global" economy, they must be deregulated, or fail.

The deregulation is simply a means of buying time for a system which is deeply flawed.

The next step is the scenario provided by Songwronger.
It has all happened before to a lesser extent, but this is the big one.
Forget your political theory Don......just read some history.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 05:28 AM

...you just can't have civilian gawkers in the way of a possible shootout.

Joe might just has well have said probable shootout. Or even certain shootout. From a distance it looks like it's the only solution America understands. I've been in several countries of late - admittedly some of the many where the US is generally despised - where reaction to the Boston incident has been seen as an entertaining farce.

Before debating the lockdown, people should be wondering how it was that the 19-year-old was still at large. If firefights are such a wonderful solution, and with such an amount of manpower brought to bear, how was the (seriously injured) boy able to saunter off the scene? What were the police aiming at during all that shooting? Surely not identifiable targets?

Some news channels carried a Skype interview with a guy who said one of the bullets had gone through a chair where he had been sitting moments earlier. Has anyone expressed interest in who fired that bullet?

The lockdown was just more evidence that the US doesn't do subtle, and probably never will. The fact that it achieved nothing - the suspect was found after the lockdown, and the property he was hiding in was never searched - will concern no-one, except possibly a few obsessives like Songwriter.

If the whole crazy response raised no questions, I wouldn't be surprised.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Elmore
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 09:37 AM

The only good thing about Songwronger posts is that they elicit thoughtful, erudite responses from those who know what they're talking about. e,g.: Don Firth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Bettynh
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 12:34 PM

A few things to mention:

For folks out of the USA, those army uniforms you see in Marathon pictures aren't regular army. They were National Guard, commonly called "weekend warriors" here. They were hired by the state government to assist in crowd control (and probably counted as a duty day for the Guard members). A few at the front of the rush into the scene weren't on duty at all - they had just run (or trotted or marched) the 26 miles in uniform with 35 pound packs as a fundraiser for a veterans' group.


On another note, I don't often visit the sites Songwronger linked to. I was frustrated a bit by the fact that when they write an extensive critique of another site (like the NY Times) there's no link to the original site. I'm no internet wizard, but even I can do that. I have to think that the socialist site doesn't want to muddy the stream of criticism by inviting the reader to form his/her own opinion.

And I'm sure there's lots of investigation about all that gunfire going on right now, especially since the suspect apparently didn't have a gun by the time of the final confrontation. I don't expect to hear any results of police inquiry for several months - they have hundreds of bullets to account for, and inquiries of that sort usually try to account for each bullet fired. The process of inquiry, however, I expect to be out of public view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 12:53 PM

The one thing that I am taking away from this horrible event is the goodness of people in general.

Those who ran toward the explosions to help others. Those who opened up their homes to stranded runners or offered lifts home.

On the news last night there were army veterans who have lost limbs going into the hospitals to talk to victims of the explosions about what they might expect and what could be accomplished with the loss of limbs.

A couple of young men in Maine are selling Boston Strong teeshirts and have already made thousands of dollars for the fund for the injured. The One fund is now in the millions.

The rest of it? It is past. The culprits are known, one is dead and the other in custody. It doesn't appear that the inhabitants of Watertown felt that the authorities were wrong in clearing the streets in an effort to keep them safe. I have talked to a friend who was stuck at work all that day and the feeling was that, although it was a bit of a pain, it was probably the right thing to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 01:04 PM

Something like the Boston Marathon bombing is of a completely different magnitude from what might be called "every day crime" and calls for extraordinary measures. The law enforcement agencies did exactly what they should have done..

Obama's drone pilots have, on their own figures, killed 890 civilians so far. Two guys with pressure cookers are nowhere near in that league.

Who's locking down cities to hunt down Obama's death squads?


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 02:09 PM

Not "theory," Ake. Knowledge of what works and what does not.

And history happens to be one of my strong suits. Perhaps you could use a bit more study in that area—without preconceptions.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 05:58 PM

I have heard a lot of hate rhetoric directed at American presidents over the years from people who are ultra-partisan, generally extreme, and sometimes from conspiracy-theorists of various stripes.

As a kid, I remember the vitriol spewed at FDR by Republicans and other Right-Wingers because he was putting the brakes on the Republicans darlings and supporters, the Wall Street rip-off artists that precipitated the Great Depression. And Truman, who followed Roosevelt and continued his economic policies. And on through the rest of the century. A percentage of the "outs" will say damned near anything, no matter how untrue or personally insulting, about the person in office.

That seems to be the nature of politics. The United States is not unique in this. I've followed English and French politics from time to time, and the same thing goes on there as well.

But I have never heard as many—and such extreme—blatant lies about any American president as I have about President Barack Obama.

Now, despite what Songwronger, GoofBall, and the other Stooges accuse me of (not bothering to inquire, of course) is that I am "brainwashed" into thinking that Obama is the Messiah Returned. Not so! I had great hopes for Obama in the beginning, and I must admit to being somewhat disappointed by what he has managed to accomplish. I thing he is trying too hard to be "Mr. Nice Guy" and willing to compromise in order to get things done. But the Republican Congress has dug its heels in and refuses to compromise on anything. Obviously that tack is not working. So Obama needs to get tough!

Obama may not be ideal, but when I compare him to the other viable candidates (i.e., capable of actually winning the election) on the ballot, I'm glad I voted for him.

And I haven't been "brainwashed" by anyone.

Don Firth

P. S. And who would YOU have voted for, Songwronger?

P. P. S. And by the way, how did you manage to divert this thread into another "trash Obama" thread?

Oh, yes! The Boston Marathon bombings were part of a devious plot by Obama to take over total control of the United States government!


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 06:55 PM

Agreed, Don. And I am glad to see you distinguish "Liberal" from "Socialist". I am the latter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 09:35 PM

The word "Socialism" does not refer to a monolith as some of those who throw the word around indiscriminately seem to think. It covers a fairly wide spectrum of political systems.

Richard, could you give a brief, comprehensive dissertation on its various flavors?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Songwronger
Date: 28 Apr 13 - 07:26 PM

Fascist is as fascist does.

Obama has privatized the medical industry with Obamacare. His proposed budget for 2014 guts Social Security and Medicare. It also privatizes things like the TVA. He claims the authority to kill anyone anytime anywhere, and he's doing so with drones (which he reviews on a big screen teevee in the white house).

That's not socialism, communism, liberalism, Democrat or Republican. Those are morally corrupt, fascist actions. Judge the man by his actions, not his words.

But back to Boston.

Boston mayor wants drones for next year's marathon


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 13 - 10:03 PM

Songwronger, your first paragraph doesn't say a helluva lot.

Your second paragraph is loaded with lies and oversimplifications. And Obama does NOT claim the right to kill anyone at any time with drones.   Outright, blatant lie.

Drones (which can be used strictly for surveillance) over the next Boston Marathon?

All things considered, a damned good idea.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Songwronger
Date: 28 Apr 13 - 11:03 PM

Obama says he can kill anyone (the NDAA). His weapon of choice is drones. "Terror Tuesdays" at the white house. Obama and his boys gather to pick targets, then Obama watches the nosecone snuff films later. Helluva guy.

Don't ever admit you were wrong about Obama, Mr. Firth. Hold him more closely to your breast the more he betrays you. The drowning man reflex. Belief perseverance.

Or, you can cut your losses and admit the truth.

I know it's hard. I've gone through the process with several ex-heroes.

Winston Churchill. Greatest man of the twentieth century? That's what I was taught. But then I learned how he withheld naval protection from the Lusitania in an effort to draw the U.S. into WWI. Also, he wanted to "drench" Germany with poison gas. Didn't see a problem with it at all in WW2. Hardly the actions of a great man. But there will be those who persist in saying he was great.

Wake up and smell the fascism in the U.S. An incident that has CIA written all over it justifies Obama's killer drones in the skies over America? No. Wake up. fascism. Smell it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 13 - 11:11 PM

Paranoid schizophrenia.

Or tinfoil hat syndrome.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Elmore
Date: 29 Apr 13 - 12:14 AM

Songwronger doesn't know the difference between a mayor and a police commissioner. Tom Menino , not Ed Davis is Mayor of Boston and you Songwronger are pathetic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Apr 13 - 12:24 AM

The question of Churchill and the sinking of the Lusitania is nowhere near as settled as you are trying to claim. Churchill was indeed First Lord of the Admiralty during the first part of the WW I, and later on, some people accused him of removing protection from ships like the Lusitania. BUT these accusations came from his political enemies, and his complicity in the matter is not settled by historians by any means, nor is it as cut-and-dried as you claim it is.

In my post, up-thread at 27 Apr 13 - 05:58 p.m., I clearly state my thoughts and feelings about Barack Obama as President, which either you didn't read, or you are deliberately trying to distort.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Q
Date: 29 Apr 13 - 12:36 PM

People who would deny the use of the measures taken to protect citizens in Boston, are themselves a danger to the general public if any of their blather is taken seriously by authorities.

Drones can replace the expensive helicopters and their crews now in use. Kneejerk rejection because of alleged misuse in warfare is illogical.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Apr 13 - 02:35 PM

There are plenty of good peacetime uses for remote controlled aircraft—Drones—Unarmed Aerial Vehicles—that are currently being experimented with. Such as NOAA's experimentation with drones based in the Caribbean, and used for close-in investigation of hurricanes and possible developing hurricanes (often too dangerous for manned aircraft).

Other agencies are beginning to use them in the Arctic for such things as monitoring polar bears and various migrating animals (e.g., caribou), plus monitoring icebergs that can become potential navigation hazards (anybody remember the Titanic?).

And with all the oil drilling in the Arctic, oil spills are another reason why drones can be useful. For example, with the number of pipelines running from the Arctic, not only can they help to detect oil spills in the first place, they can then help figure out exactly where oil is moving. As I recall, a few years ago, there was a bad leak in a pipeline leading down from the Prudhoe Bay oil field, and it leaked oil for several days before it was discovered. A regular, frequent survey with drones would minimize ecological disasters like that.

Hunting for people who are lost in wilderness areas is an obvious use of drones. Mountain climbers who are stranded or hikers who are lost or may be injured, for example. Usually helicopters are used for such missions. But drones—several drones—can cover a wider area less expensively, and if one crashes (as happens from time to time with helicopters on such search missions), you lose a relatively inexpensive drone instead of a very expensive helicopter—and no one gets killed.

When I worked doing morning and evening rush hour traffic reports over the radio in the early 1970's, I had to monitor four Seattle Police radios and two Washington State Patrol radios simultaneously, listen to the conversation back and forth, and try to put together a comprehensive report of areas to avoid and good alternate routes for the commuters who depended on such reports to get to work on time. Being psychic would have helped, but I never knew when I voiced the report if it bore any relation to what was actually happening on the streets and freeways out there. Apparently I was doing okay, because people kept telling me I was doing a great job.

One of the other radio stations in town had a small plane flying over the freeways and radioing in reports. But Seattle is a pretty big city and when he was checking out the Northgate area traffic, he had no idea of what was happening in the south end of the city.

Looking back on it, a fleet of drone aircraft equipped with cameras could make duck-soup out of compiling drive-time traffic reports.

Peacetime drones can be very useful for many worthwhile purposes, including saving lives.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Apr 13 - 05:08 AM

""But I have never heard as many—and such extreme—blatant lies about any American president as I have about President Barack Obama.""

Just think for a moment about the unique difference between Obama and every other President in the (short) history of the USA, and the reason for the above becomes crystal clear.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Songwronger
Date: 30 Apr 13 - 06:56 PM

But Obama is using drones to kill people. Even Americans. Look up Terror Tuesdays. That's when he arbitrarily selects who will live and who will die by his drones. Can't expand a drone program with someone like that in charge. That would be like putting Churchill in charge of guarding the poison gas reserves.

Obama's one success as president is that he's been able to delude his followers. Belief perseverance. I don't think I've ever seen such an extreme case on so large a scale. But in fairness to you deluded people, the media is manipulating you. Seems you would get tired of it after a while, though. When they have you saying you should scrap the rights enumerated in your founding document, then you've jumped the rails.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Elmore
Date: 30 Apr 13 - 08:31 PM

Songrwronger: Have you figured out who the mayor of Boston is yet, or does the truth spoil your Narrative? You continue to be pathetic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: akenaton
Date: 01 May 13 - 04:03 AM

There are very many people, a large proportion of whom are liberals, who are appalled, by the move to "drone warfare", and Mr Obama'personal involvement in "targettng".

Latest news is that drones are now being controlled from the uk.

Figures for civilian deaths from drone strikes in Pakistan, were reported recently by BBC as "over 850 including many women and children"


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: mayomick
Date: 01 May 13 - 08:07 AM

The over- the-top reaction to the OP mirrors an attitude prevalent in sections of American society that frightens many people in other parts of the world. I'm very pleased though that there seems to be a growing number of people in the US who feel the same way to the rest of the world - opinion polls conducted since the Boston bombings indicate that more in the US are frightened by their own government abusing constitutional liberties than they are of the dangers posed by foreign terrorists.
http://www.sodahead.com/living/poll-americans-fear-government-more-than-terror/question-3662897/?feed=3393667&new=1&scroll=1
(Against that I suppose you have to balance the opinion expressed here by UK lawyers who seem to think it ok to overturn Magna Carta on account of the danger to public safety posed by these pressure cooker WMDs .)

Law professor Obama has never actually claimed the right to kill anyone at any time with drones perhaps , but , it's really not far from that . In practice that is what he does on Kill Tuesdays isn't it? I get the impression that some of his admirers wouldn't object if Obama did claim de jure the right to commit murder as and when it suited him - he is the leader of the free world after all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Songwronger
Date: 01 May 13 - 10:19 PM

The over- the-top reaction to the OP mirrors an attitude prevalent in sections of American society that frightens many people in other parts of the world.

I'm the original poster and I concur with that statement. The government's cheerleaders are verbally violent towards those they view as a threat. The problem is they don't know what the real threat is. The threat is to our constitution.

As far as Obama killing, I went over the drone stuff in this thread. Obama's a real piece of dirt. He watches the nose cone snuff films of his kills. Like they're sporting events. And a new law in the U.S. (one called the National Defense Authorization Act) covers him in his perverse hobby.

And why is Elmore picking on me? I guess he thinks I'm one of "these people" as he said once. I'm not black, dude.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 May 13 - 10:35 PM

No, you're not. But President Obama is black.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Elmore
Date: 01 May 13 - 11:19 PM

Yes, Songwronger, I did use the term, "these people", with reference to the people in my congressional district, the third most conservative congressional district in the United States; the ninth congressional district of Georgia. I was wondering how, I, a liberal from Massachusetts was going to fare down here. So, while I don't expect you to refrain from distorting my remarks, or taking them out of context, I deeply resent the charge of racism, as well as your forcing me to type when it should be obvious, even to you, that I can't. Finally, I'm certain that everybody who has followed this thread will empathize with you for having been "picked on".


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Subject: RE: BS: Boston Lockdown
From: Elmore
Date: 01 May 13 - 11:26 PM

By the by, Songwronger, Do you continue to insist that Ed Davis is the mayor of Boston?


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