Poor Performers & What to do?

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 May 13 - 07:56 AM

I would be surprised if EFC didn't check out demo CDs and web presence for every act they book, and look at reviews and promo, and they've still had a few disasters. Anybody can fall victim to a misleading recording backed by mendacious hype.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 May 13 - 07:23 AM

I agree with Johnny J, I think there's room for both types of event but problems can arise when there's a mismatch of expectations. I don't think the fact that the audience is paying matters so much as what they think they are paying for. If they are paying to be entertained, then the event has a duty to put on performers who reach at least a minimum standard. However it's different if the audience is paying to participate in an event where everyone is encouraged to perform, where mere participation may be more important than quality.

What is important is to be clear to both audience and would-be performers what sort of event it is, and what is is expected of both of them.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 13 - 07:04 AM

In the case of non-booked visitors/regulars, most clubs I have been involved with have been able to organise some sort of assistance to singers who wished to work on their singing, and most of them have met with some degree of success.
I have never been convinced about the one-to-one "teaching" of people to sing, but the most successful I've known were those where a group of singers/enthusiasts have met regularly on a formal basis, asked 'wannabes' to bring along a number of songs to be worked on, then worked on them in a chaired discussion around the strengths and weaknesses of the performance, finally making specific suggestions of how to approve the singing – positive and negative suggestions being the rule of the day.
We always avoided telling people "how to sing", but if we were going to put in time and effort to help we did expect the singer/s to show that they had put in the work between meetings.
The democratic nature of this set-up was a two-way street; hopefully the singer/s took away something to work on and the rest, by being put in a situation of having to think about what was happening, picked up tips that they could apply to their own singing.
A bit of a simplistic explanation of the work; some of these 'workshops' took the work much further than ths explanation.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 16 May 13 - 05:30 AM

don't give anyone a platform unless you've heard them on YouTube or reverbnation or bandcamp or myspace or wherever.

If they haven't got any kind of recording or video or anything available, then it's legitimate to ask why they actually want to appear in public...

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Johnny J
Date: 16 May 13 - 04:30 AM

It's unlikely that there will ever be agreement on this one.

One school of thought argues that it is unprofessional for a club to feature floor singers and/or budding performers(s) as a support. After all, people have paid good money to see the guest artist or band.

On the other hand, many argue that folk clubs are failing in their duty if they don't encourage club members and local singers, In some venues, they are even seen as more important.

Edinburgh Folk Club usually has a pre-arranged opening spot and we still welcome floor singers albeit, due to time restrictions, it's always wise to ask in advance before the night starts. There's an impression in some quarters that we don't actively encourage the latter and this may be true but it's usually because there's "always someone there".
Our friends at Leith don't have floor spots at all but do have an opening spot where local acts are encouraged to apply while in many of the rural clubs there are more singers nights than anything else.

Personally, I'd rather things were more black and white.... i.e. either a guest night or a "floor singer, open mic, or whatever night". It's the hybrid scenario which always seems to cause the most contention.
(These are just my own views though)

However, in Edinburgh we are spoiled for choice and there are all manner of sessions, singarounds etc some of which are more organised than others. So, it's possible for the likes of ourselves and Leith to concentrate more on a concert format. Besides, the punters would be unlikely to come along to these clubs just to hear local singers etc when they can just as easily go to the pub.

I do realise that in rural areas and small towns circumstances are a little different. So, I appreciate there's more of a need to cater for the Senga McGlumphers of this world who want to get up there and "do a turn".

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 16 May 13 - 04:12 AM

I make it clear I'm always ready to murder a couple of songs if there is a shortage of real talent on the night, but not offended to be left out if there isn't. Usually the threat is enough for someone to get on the 'phone and get some more people along to fill in!

RtS
("Roger don't sing too good, but he sing with feeling" anon of Greece)

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 May 13 - 04:09 AM

20 minutes for an unknown and unproved act sounds too long. In most UK folk clubs the usual floor spot is two, maybe three songs. Once you've proved yourself you might be asked to do a longer slot, perhaps as support for a booked artist, but you have to earn it.

It's difficult if an event is advertised as an open-mic, as people feel they have a right to perform and the MC loses control. A floor spot should be a privilege, and the MC should decide who gets to play and who doesn't.

Some performers who aren't up to scratch will appreciate honest feedback, others will take offence and not return - but is that any loss?

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 May 13 - 09:38 PM

No, we don't pay the performers, Ron. All they get is a CD recording of their set and a chance to sing for an attentive audience (Juneau audiences are great!). We don't take in much money- we charge $5.00 at the door; children are free- the rationale being that we want those same children to be on our stage someday. We pay $100.00 for the rental of the hall. In a pinch we can seat close to 150 people but that would be a rare occasion- most of the time we draw around 75 people. Luckily so, because it is a tight fit for a hundred plus people.

We get a lot of pats on the back for this concert series. We have completed eight seasons (October through March) and our audiences have steadily grown in size. We have introduced a great many performers to the larger community which was our aim in the first place. Most of our performers are local but from time to time we get some from out of town. Several times we have booked a guest and given him/her the gate. A couple of times we have paid airfare into town to a performer who is touring the state.

At the end of the season we donate most of the leftover money to some cause that we, the founders, agree upon, whether that is to a burnt out family or applied to someone's medical bills or given to a private agency. We are pretty laid back. None of the founders take any money so we are not all uptight about the financial end of the thing.

It's just that once in awhile we don't like a particular performer, and in some cases have told each other: Never again. I remember one 60-year old who put on a kittenish act that was about as offputting as one could imagine. *g*

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 May 13 - 08:53 PM

It seems reasonable, as others have noted, that any person who bills himself or herself as a perfomer should be willing to audition for you--or send a recording. You say you don't audition, but you also say word of mouth has not always worked out for you.    20 minutes is in fact too long to sit through a talentless navelgazer. One song--no more-- is about right.

Without some sort of audition--live or recorded (and a recording, as others have observed, may not be an accurate picture of what you will get at your gig)-- there's no solution to your problem. In your position, I'd be willing to gamble if the recording was good.   But an audition of some kind is essential.

Do you pay these performers?

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Joe_F
Date: 15 May 13 - 07:53 PM

In the Boston (MA) area, at any rate, there are groups that openly advertise that talent is not required. Their members sing for each other & enjoy themselves. I am sorry to have to indulge in Blaming the Victim, but it is stupid to aspire to show business if what you really want is to have fun.

The ability to enjoy oneself at a low level of competence is a precious resource for happiness & should not be sacrificed to the will-o'-the-wisp of Excellence.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 May 13 - 07:46 PM

Some of these poor critters have put their stuff on youtube.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: kendall
Date: 15 May 13 - 07:38 PM

I don't understand how a person who really sucks deludes himself into thinking he can sing.
Jack, I was singer but I lost my singing voice, so now I don't even try. I can do a good impression of Mr. Creosote, but that's it. Not a big audience for that.
Someone remarked about ex champion, Joe Frasier, "Who ever told him he could sing"?
Answer, "Who's going to tell him he can't"?

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,Jay
Date: 15 May 13 - 07:28 PM

I booked a group for our club, unfortunately all four of the advertised members turned up. I wish I'd waited a few years as I hear they became a trio. One of the most patronising, unpleasant people I have come across. I hope to book the 'Trio' from Sheffield soon.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 13 - 07:10 PM

I had a similar experience to that.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 May 13 - 06:28 PM

Be wary of booking a group if they send you a recording - Booked a Five Piece on the strength of a cassette once - they turned up as a quartet and only two of them had been in the original group !!

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 15 May 13 - 06:15 PM

I've got an idea. If somebody is completely new to you, let them do one number as a tryout before granting a 20 minute act.

Twenty minutes can seem like an eternity.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 May 13 - 06:11 PM

Make a rule that you don't book an act until you've heard the person perform. Recordings are easy to make nowadays.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 May 13 - 05:35 PM

As far as 'floor singers' go , if someone has travelled a distance to do a short set , I feel it is only polite to give them a try .
With 'locals' you may need the numbers and not want to put off his support IF he brings audience with him

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 May 13 - 05:28 PM

In UK Folk Clubs , rather than 'concerts' the problem is the unpaid floor singer who MAY be a visiting performer looking for a booking , or a local who is a club supporter .
The former will usually be at least competent , and the latter may well bring a number of friends along , but still be dodgy .
Often , unless you have seen the performer , its a chance either way

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 May 13 - 05:23 PM

"You know...we/I feel that you need more work on your delivery and holding a tune." etc... "Have you tried recording yourself and listening as though you didn't know who it was?"

I knew some very nice, sincere people who simply could not carry a tune... and others who simply could not sing without a cheat-sheet.

The point of singing is to happily share music.....but if your audience is not happy, adjustments need to be made- and it can be more cruel to let them 'think' they're doing ok than to gently suggest more work.

(and 20 minutes the first time on stage? Why not 2 song tryouts?)

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Deckman
Date: 15 May 13 - 05:12 PM

Hi Ebbie ... You ask some tough questions. As someone who has been on stage longer than I've been alive, and who still (stooopid me) produces and selects performers for local concerts, I've been in your shoes many times. I would offer the following thoughts:

Be honest. If they're not "ready for prime time", tell them so. You don't have to be mean about it, but holding back does no one any favors.

If you've the time and inclinations, make some notes on paper, sit them down, and critique their performance. Suggest improvements. Perhaps recommend a local performance coach.

One of these days (daze?) I'd like to get up your way for a festival gig.

Best wishes ... bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 May 13 - 04:51 PM

Where you get a tougher problem is with somebody who was once good and is now losing it for some reason. Okay, with alcohol addiction, "try again when you've dried out" is best all round. With progressive illness of other kinds you're on the spot.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 May 13 - 04:24 PM

To make another thing clear: not only artists, but also editorial readers, critics, competition jurors etc. can be very incompetent and arrogant in their roles, even if working for a prestigious institution for a good salary.

Long ago I read about someone who had copied passages from extremely successful and highly acclaimed recent novels, changed some names, and sent each to the original publisher, pretending it to be an excerpt from his own new novel. None of the addressees recognized their own publications, and all were quite definite in their negative verdict. (Chinese politeness is rarely deemed necessary nowadays, unless the aspiring artist is a prominent politician or similar.)

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,Rev Bayes
Date: 15 May 13 - 04:17 PM

When these people are on their deathbeds, the fact that you were once brutally honest with them will weigh little. Don't hold back.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,Auldtimer
Date: 15 May 13 - 04:01 PM

A couple of weekends ago I sat through a cringe inducing 35 min. set by a two East Europe "performers". A storyteller and a singer who could neither sing or tell a story. It was a waste of time since there were other performers who had their time cut back to make room for them. A poor show and a poor deal at £20 for the Sat. Night concert.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 May 13 - 03:45 PM

Good ideas so far. I'm open for more...

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: mg
Date: 15 May 13 - 03:38 PM

I think you should at least know beforehand if they can carry a tune and what their repertoire is more or less..they could sing you a song over the phone..I would not buy a pig in a poke...mg

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 May 13 - 03:37 PM

You can do it like a Chinese book publisher: "Dear author, your novel is so excellent that in comparison it would make our other authors' talents look small. We cannot take that responsibility, therefore to our regret we must refrain from publishing your work."

More occidental: "For our programming policy of a well-balanced mix, we need something different. Please do not take this as a judgment about the quality of your performance." (— "So what is it that you want? I can write it quickly!" — "We cannot possibly ask you to compromise your artistic integrity." Don't be specific about what you want, to avoid endless arguing.)

Instead of an audition, ask for a short recording, e.g. to be mailed as an MP3 file.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 May 13 - 03:08 PM

"Dunning and Kruger proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will:

    tend to overestimate their own level of skill;
    fail to recognize genuine skill in others;
    fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;
    recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they are exposed to training for that skill."

Well, that may describe it but it's not helpful in how to deal with it.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Nick
Date: 15 May 13 - 02:45 PM

I'd suggest being acquainted with the Dunning Kruger syndrome and its implications

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 May 13 - 02:30 PM

Good one, Richard!

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 13 - 01:58 PM

"Yes, we'll ring you when we have a suitable slot"?

Subject: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 May 13 - 01:55 PM

How do you feel about eager but not-so-good performers? What is one's responsibility to an audience? How many eager but not-so-good performers can one get away with and how often before an audience gives up on the venue?

We hold a wintertime concert series and we are always alert, watching for new performers to come along. We don't audition but word of mouth is usually a good indicator of what to expect. Sometimes, however, the outcome is disappointing and one could wish for the hook of the Gong show. There are people out there who seem to have little insight into their abilities and who have either decided that staying on key ranks low in importance and self-penned songs that express one's angst are what is important; that each song has the same key and ALMOST the same tune is a minor concern.

A good many of the poorer performers are recommended by established, i.e. well-known, performers. I have come to think that frequently good performers promote a poorer one in the interests of not discouraging a new singer/songwriter/instrumentalist, and that quite possibly they have been asked to help the poorer one find a gig. That support, no doubt, is laudable but in reality they are merely passing along a problem they themselves presumably don't know how to address.

A further complication: Quite often the performer will request a return engagement and although I attempt to be diplomatic I'm never sure what one should say. Does one say, "Sure, we'd be happy to have you back"? Or, "You're a crowd pleaser- thanks for asking – but we have the bill already filled for that month." Or, "I can give you the phone number of a venue that is a huge draw for people in your age group." Or…?

Mind you, these are just 20 minute sets, which means that anyone can sit through practically any one of them.

Any suggestions?