Advice to all singer songwriters

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: Songwronger
Date: 19 May 13 - 11:12 PM

It's about time this topic was addressed. Why do we need A.P. Carter, Bill Monroe and the like when we already have plenty of songs? And that Zimmerman guy who wrote so much, he changed his name to Dylan because the stuff was so bad. And come to think of it, did we really need Dylan Thomas' poetry when we already had a young man from Nantucket, who carried it 'round in a bucket? A little more respect for the classics is definitely in order.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 19 May 13 - 09:15 PM

I quite like John Grant...especially his group, The Czars. One of those Czars cd's might make my Top 200 Albums of All Time.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 19 May 13 - 08:36 PM

Apologies, that was me last post.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 13 - 08:05 PM

If you're going to suggest John Grant, at least suggest his best track Pale Green Ghosts

That is subjective, of course. It's actually the ONLY track of his I like on that album.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 19 May 13 - 07:19 PM

The thing is, the advice that you'd give to one singer/songwriter is not the same advice you'd give to another. The most nearly universal advice I've ever heard is from Arthur Laurents, who said, "Anything good is better shorter.", but that isn't helpful to say, someone writing haiku. Beyond that, most songwriters and performers have irregular cash flow, and do well to avoid buying on credit.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 May 13 - 07:09 PM

"I am not against singer songwriters, just the bad ones"... "Singer songwriters tend to collect together in little mutual admiration societies"... From the defensive/agressive to the fatuous/incorrect, such statements say more about the writer than the subject.

Good songwriters invariably start out as bad ones and improve. Stop them early and they will never mature. Some songs speak to one heart and not to another; don't try to account for taste. And sure, there are plenty of brilliant songs out there, many undiscovered - but there is always room for one more.

Writing songs is a medium of expression, like speaking or writing a letter, or trying to do your best in what interests you, be it sport, a job, charity work etc. So, in the interests of freedom of expression (without offending anyone, incidentally, though even if it did so what), do us all a favour and don't try to preach. Life is hard enough to negotiate without having know-alls giving valuable "advice" from the sidelines.

You don't like the songs being written? Write one yourself. Anyone can, if they apply themselves. If you cannot be arsed to try, where exacly is your valuable advice rooted?

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 19 May 13 - 06:05 PM

Navel-gazing: excessive focus on oneself (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/navel-gazing). Excessive is excessive, by whatever criterion. If you publish a text, or sing it publicly, you implicitly claim to have something to say that is of interest to others; Shakespeare etc. definitely had.

Naval gazing at the ocean horizon can drive you crazy as well.

Good lyrics can be about any topic, and so can bad ones.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: alanabit
Date: 19 May 13 - 05:38 PM

"From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 19 May 13 - 10:52 AM

every song you write is about yourself. even if it's about someone else - its about your feelings."

That is an interesting take Al. Over recent years, I have consciously tried to take myself out of the songs. I am trying to speak with the voice of the character - or narrate for him or her.

What you say certainly rings true though, because what I like about your songs is that I always hear a lot of your voice - whether you are singing about a younger version of yourself, a gangster or a convicted murderer. The characters are all very different, but they always have that sardonic Big Al Whittle take on them. Food for thought!

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: BobKnight
Date: 19 May 13 - 03:25 PM

Of course your experiences in life come through in your songs, everybody looks at the world through their own experiences and perspective, but I don't write about me, or things I've done.

However, that doesn't mean my experiences are totally isolated. If you can communicate a shared and common experience in your songs, then people will react well to them.

For example, Garth Brooks sang, "Sometimes late at night, I lie awake and watch her sleeping." In songwriting talks I often give this as a kind of negative example of an idea I could never have come up with since it's totally outside my experience, explaining that since I wear glasses, I take them off when I go to bed, and therefore can't see a damn thing. :)

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 13 - 02:46 PM

All I can say about Wordsworth Tintern Abbey is 'tis an abbey...

To the man who just dismissed everyone who made an effort to say that they didn't like introverted self-penned songs and then went on to say dismissing anyone's efforts is churlish, arrogant and ignorant I put this question. Does your writing course cover irony?

DtG

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: theleveller
Date: 19 May 13 - 02:10 PM

What particularly annoys me is the inarticulate use of the term 'navel gazing'. Navel gazing would encompass much of our greatest poetry including, for example, Wordsworth's Tintern Abbey, Gray's Elegy, Shakespeare's sonnets, the love poems of John Donne and much of Edward Thomas' poetry.

I teach a creative writing course and my advice is always to start with what you know; your own experiences, feelings, opinions. As an ice-breaker I often ask my learners to quickly write the first line or lines of their autobiography. The results are often astonishing and humbling. To dismiss anyone's efforts at self-expression in such a way as has been done here is churlish, arrogant and ignorant. No-one is saying you have to listen to the results but to try to discourage people from doing it is disgusting.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 19 May 13 - 01:08 PM

Allan, no objection whatsoever from me. With your flautist, you are better off than most. My "advice" was for songwriters who feel good enough to play in the World Professional League, so if they are willing to associate with a composer, they are likely to want one who knows the trade well. Good training, whether in classes or self-taught, is such a giant advantage over mere "creative feeling" that it is not wise to dispense with either.

There are many excellent composers around who are looking for a companion whose strength is on the lyrics side. If both have a decent knowledge of the other's art, all the better. The exact roles can vary - but they are the main reasons why such cooperations fail. This is no different from other kinds of intimate partnership.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 19 May 13 - 12:22 PM

Hear what you are saying Grishka but there are more ways than the two you mention. I know I can write a lyric that at least some people like; I know I can pen a tune that at least some people like (one doesn't need to be a trained composer to come up with a good melody) and I know I can hold a tune and that at least some people really like my singing. I also know that musically my ability is limited compared with some people in our club. I can play enough to give myself some basic accompaniement but not much more than that and would struggle to do much of an arrangment on songs for other intruments. However I am lucky enough to be surrounded by good musicians who are happy to add some percussion, some viola or some flute or some better guitar work etc on my songs. Hence although it is my song in that I've provided the words, melody and chord structure the song evolves with other people, sometime just by trial and error, gradually adding their bits. There is no essential need for a trained composer as such. Just people sharing in the creative process.

I was one of those bedroom players who went for years with only really close family hearing my songs until a leading light of the local club persuaded me to come along to the open mic - and it took a fair bit of initial persuasion. Quite honestly had I read some of the posts in this thread prior to going it may well have put me off. I'm more confident now and know that not everyone is going to like my material but as long as a fair few do then that is good enough for me. I do have a good initial screening regime though in that my wife is very quick to let me know if something is perhaps not up to scratch, and the young lady who plays flute and adds harmonies for me is quite firm with the "no that one is crap" phrase. I may not always like being told that something I am working on is inferior to other songs but I am glad they do it. I can't always tell myself which ones are going to go down well.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: Jeri
Date: 19 May 13 - 12:18 PM

If you hear "Pleasant and Delightful" from 10 different people, the difference between each performance is who's singing. So traditional songs are centered solely on the singer. How well that person sings a song everyone already knows.

It's interesting to think of all the ramifications of that. I'm sure the ill-will is a matter of ego, but whose ego, and why?

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: theleveller
Date: 19 May 13 - 12:13 PM

"This is bloody brilliant: John Grant GMF "

Agreed - much better than listening to some spittle-bearded bleating traddie groaning out yet another tuneless version of John Barleycorn.

My advice to songer/songwriters is ignore the likes of Breedloveboy and Canalwheeler and get on and do it. Those who can, do - those who can't, sit around and whinge about the rest of us.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 13 - 11:57 AM

I sing those songs to my little nieces, Dave. They are a bout me because I am a nice man expressing my love and desire to entertain little kids.

The choice is always about something - OR IT SHOULD BE! Macca chose mary had a little lamb to comment on the BBC. The song choice, the setting, the interpretation is everything.

If your emotional and artistic vocabulary thinks singing is akin to singing from a ringbinder numbers from the telephone directory. I guess theres always the Eurovision song contest. Or you could try another scintillating version of Sheath and Knife.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 19 May 13 - 11:55 AM

What Dave said. Actually, I would disagree with Al's contention that you are always singing about yourself, and that if you're not, it's not worth listening to (if I take his meaning). My attitude is that you are giving voice to the person - real or fictitious - in the song; that you should try to put yourself in their shoes. I've said on another thread - or was it this one - that it's about the song, not the singer. With pop music, it's the other way around. They (the poppies) are saying "this is about me" - the song is their vehicle. We are saying "I am this person". There's a considerable difference.
I am not a drowned sailor, a jolly ploughboy, a deserted maiden, a Lord, Lady, Knight, unapproved-of suitor (actually, come to think of it, scrub that one...)...etc. Dave once said of me that I seem to method-act the songs. I suppose I do. I just hope it works.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: Rockhen
Date: 19 May 13 - 11:31 AM

If you don't put any of yourself into a song you write, it is much harder to feel any passion about it. It is not necessarily about yourself but conveys the way you feel about something. If you don't put something, whether from your own sense of humour, your experiences, your thoughts etc...which bit of it is yours? They are just words and a tune.
If it is telling someone else's story it will still have something of you in it. I think.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 13 - 11:22 AM

There's loads of songs that are not about yourself. Bah bah black sheep. The grand old duke of York. The wheels on the bus. Just three off the top of my head!

:D tG

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 13 - 10:52 AM

every song you write is about yourself. even if its about someone else - its about your feelings.

for examples Guthrie's Pretty Boy Floyd wasn't a documentary truth telling exercise. The song is about how Guthrie felt about the powerful rich of America, the victimised poor; law enforcement; the way the powerful skewed news coverage to their own advantage and much more ......

It's bloody sad that so many English singers are attracted to songs ossified in tradition - devoid and atrophied of all meaning.

I wouldn't give a damn for a song, or song selection that wasn't to a great extent about yourself.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 19 May 13 - 09:54 AM

The idea of the singer-songwriter concept is that it stands for the most direct communication between artist/s and audience, most suitable for personal messages. The principal problem is of course that many poetic messages, however convincing, are either quite general or uninteresting "navel-gazing". In the first case, it is preferable to have a good singer - with a voice and training adequate to the style of the song - than one who happens to be identical to the author.

If we leave singing aside, the question is still about lyricist and composer. The type of person we are thinking of is primarily a poet; let us assume an excellent one. Let us further assume s/he is a mediocre composer - should s/he also write the music or leave it to a specialist? The advantage of the first method is not so much the increased "authenticity", but that the author can simultaneously tweak both the lyrics and the tune until they fit.

Excellent lyrics can do with music that is merely good, and vice versa. If however either is below some line, the song will inevitably fail (in my ears), however good the other. My advice to poets: cooperate closely with a trained composer who understands your poetry; if you do not find any, improve your poetry. Ingenious multi-talents are exempt, but then they are not likely to ask us for advice.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 13 - 09:09 AM

"Not all sonwriters are introspective navel-gazers. I've NEVER written a song about myself. I prefer to use my imagination,"

Nor me. But I have written songs about other people using the first person.

Here's another angle. I'd rather here a good original song sung badly, but to the best of the writer's ability than a rubbish introspective song that is obviously just a vehicle for the performer to show how wonderful they think they are.

Tone

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 13 - 06:41 AM

OK DB - Agreed. There are a few exceptions. As long as we know that not all singer/songwriters are navel gazing introverts and not all trad. folkies are card-carying nazis!

I must admit it is the generalisations that get up my nose and a lot of them are being bandied about here! I think it is probably true to say that 80% of every group you can think of are middle of the road. 10% are abysmal and 10% are brilliant. Of course that is a huge genaralisation... :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 19 May 13 - 06:22 AM

By tarring 'pretty much everyone' that posted with the same brush you probably alienated a lot of innocent people.

With few exceptions the tone of the thread from the OP onwards was one of petty negativity & much in-the-know advice being bandied around - with comments like but it ain't folk, and nobody will be singing it in 10 years time typifying the reactionary know-it-all folkwit mindset. Just as long as they're singing it now, eh?

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: GUEST,Breedloveboy
Date: 19 May 13 - 05:27 AM

Canalwheeler, I'm with you 100%, and he can't even control a Basketball!

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 19 May 13 - 04:37 AM

"But I suspect that many great singer/interpretors are ignored because the industry doesn't want anybody who won't also generate money by writing and copyrighting the material."

Hm but here in the UK over the past decade and a half the industry (at its most commercial end) has been choc-a-bloc with people singing other people's songs. I'm talking about all the various reality talent shows where the singers either can't or are plain just not allowed to write their own material. As far as I know there has been no high profile record industry TV push to find the next singer-songwriter.

Also if you are a songwriter who can also perform then surely the performing is a good way to get your songs out? Both directly to local audiences and to other performers who may wish to interpret them. I think the important thing is that there is a measure of peronal quality control but that goes for all the performing and not just for the singer-songwriters.

I am talking above about club performers but we do bring about hald a dozen guests to Kelso every year too. The bulk of those seem to pen at least most of their own songs and I find the quality is normally (not always of course) pretty high.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: BobKnight
Date: 19 May 13 - 03:44 AM

Not all sonwriters are introspective navel-gazers. I've NEVER written a song about myself. I prefer to use my imagination, and I never use other people's tunes either. Okay, call me a control freak, but I just prefer to keep it "in-house."

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 19 May 13 - 03:42 AM

"This is bloody brilliant: John Grant GMF"

No it's not. I was bored after 30 seconds.

I grant you it might be popular with the naval gazers but it ain't folk, and nobody will be singing it in 10 years time.

Tone

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 May 13 - 02:56 AM

I think we don't give enough recognition and thanks to the people who spread the music of others through radio, writing, cd reviews, columns, blogs etc..we are blessed in the pnw of north america with incredible radio shows..portland, astoria, seattle, everett, op en mike in california..some great columns by percy h and alice w in victory review..some blogs...some venues such as nw seaport that put on such great shows..people like deckman who archive and publicize historical recordings...stew who puts out a great blog and puts on concerts and does recordings...people who put on the music camps and the festivals and work out collective cds...it all comes together and with the internet it will be referred to again and again...mg

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: GUEST,Larry Saidman
Date: 18 May 13 - 10:47 PM

Grishka asks: Who is more likely to produce a good song:
-(singer-)songwriters (including teams of such, like Lennon/McCartney)
    or
-teams of specialized lyricists, composers, and singers?

How about "none of the above"?

I would think it would be by people who have a calling to say something---lyrically, musically, or both.

That is the 'songwriter'....somebody I have incredible respect for.

Then there is the 'singer'....whose job it is to 'distribute' what that person had to say.

It's rare for somebody to be great at both. Certainly there are a few.

But I suspect that many great singer/interpretors are ignored because the industry doesn't want anybody who won't also generate money by writing and copyrighting the material.

And many a great songwriter is ignored because he/she isn't a 'performer'.   Can you imagine if the great poets and songwriters of yesterday were judged totally on the basis of their quality as a performer? Would we have heard of George Gershwin, Irving Berlin, Cole Porter, many of the great classical composers, etc. Even the great Leonard Cohen (who has blossomed into a fine performer as well) would have been virtually unheard of if singers like Judy Collins, Chad Mitchell, and others hadn't discovered the songs and performed them.

Songwriters are becoming extinct.   So are great singers (in the popular, folk, country, and even jazz traditions).

There isn't enough motivation for that '3rd category' of people....those inspired to say what they need to say....to work at doing it, and for those who do, there's not enough motivation for performers to 'spread the word'.

The only solution is for all people who are primarily performers to work at finding great material....whether it be traditional, songs by non (or barely) performing songwriters, or even occasionally their own song.   And for all who are primarily songwriters to put their work into their art......and only focus on the performing aspect if you are 'called'.   Find others to do that work.

Anyway, that's my rant. Sorry if I get repetitive, but to me it just seems so obvious as I hear so much of the 'dreck' that fills up these hourlong cd's.....virtually all written by the person who is performing on them.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: Acorn4
Date: 18 May 13 - 07:00 PM

Most of Eurovision predictably the songs sounded like "Abide with Me" with a drum machine, nonetheless it is an innocent bit of fun and the forecasting who will politically vote for who is all part of that.

I thought the Dutch song was interesting although slightly too Lloyd Webberish - thought Georgia was a well constructed pop ballad and the winner for me, which was a guarantee that it wouldn't win.

Ironically the winning song was one that Bonnie would have sung well in her prime - she seemed to pitch the song she sang too low to show her voice off at it's best.

At one stage a Norwegian victory seemed a remote possibility; now whoever would have thought that?

Re songwriting, I agree with most of what Jeri has posted.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 18 May 13 - 05:37 PM

Some songs are better than others. Some songwriters are better than others. That surely though is the same with everything? Not everyone who sings covers or traditional material is up to scratch either. I've sat through many a perfromance where someone with not too great a voice or perfromance ability insists on singing all 15 verses of a ballad which seems to drag on endlessly. Doesn't mean we'd tell 90% of ballad singers not to bother. It's much easier to knock people than it is to actually perform or create. In my experience rather than insist that everyone needs to listen to every song written songwriters are often not very confident about initially perfroming a song and worry that it won't be perceived well.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: GUEST,Spleen
Date: 18 May 13 - 05:35 PM

Bollocks. Totally forgot about the Eurovision. Narrow it down Dave - who's your tip to win, if you had to choose one?

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 13 - 05:22 PM

True, John. Only too true.

Blandwhatist. Your exact words - look above - were ignore pretty much everything written above. It represents the worst pseudo-muso know-it-all bullshit that typifies a certain loud-mouthed factor in the folk world Please note the 'pretty much everything written above'. Haw can that be taken to mean anything but most of the contributors above belong to the 'loud-mouthed factor in the folk world.'? By tarring 'pretty much everyone' that posted with the same brush you probably alienated a lot of innocent people. Including me and including a lot of folk club organisers. A good career move? Probably not...

I will conclude my case by declaring, quite proudly, that I have just spent an enjoyable couple of hours watching the Eurovision song contest. Including a 'legendary Greek folk singer'. No, it wasn't George... My predictions before the votes? Well, not predictions really but I enjoyed Russia, Hungary, Iceland and Greece. Bonnie Tyler made a good effort but it didn't do it for me.

Now, you can laugh at me as loud as you like :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 May 13 - 05:16 PM

Me above. Must remember to type name. Sorry.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 13 - 05:16 PM

"So why do new, youngish introspective songwriters think everything they write is worthy of our ears?"

Do they, though? Have you asked them?

Here's my current favourite singer songwriter. This is bloody brilliant: John Grant GMF

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 18 May 13 - 04:54 PM

Bugger...kitten, not kitte

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 18 May 13 - 04:47 PM

Dave: You have surely roamed these subterranean corridors long enough to know that, should you ever venture to declare any misgivings about any subject under the heavens (and some anonymous 'guest' will condemn me to eternal and merciless torture for remotely, obliquely, even ironically hinting at the utterly preposterous and unforgiveable notion of the shadow of a possibility of such a concept as heaven)...er..you will incur the monumental, towering and unforgiving wrath, venom, vituperation (whatever that is) and lots of other stinging, boiling, vitriolic, scalding ...er...stuff of every troll, goblin, devil and wailing banshee in Cyberspace, and be condemned for a squalling, cringing, low, foul-smelling, puss-spewing, worm-infested, crud-ridden fascist, racist, homophobic, mean, hungry, spiteful, railing, ranting, fascist, racist, elitist, long-haired, mysoginistic, kitte-strangling paedophile...er..
I get all that stuff as well.
Sorry Sean. Just 'avinalarf.
JK

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 18 May 13 - 04:28 PM

Many years ago I had the privilege of interviewing Richard Thompson on a hot day in a hot van behind the stage at Cropredy.

I asked him what the failure rate was of songs that he has written and decided to dump. IIRC it was about 60%.

What he did say was, if he had doubts about one of his songs he left it in a draw for a few months, then went back to it. It gave him a far better idea of whether it was any good that way.

So why do new, youngish introspective songwriters think everything they write is worthy of our ears?

Tone

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: Jeri
Date: 18 May 13 - 04:16 PM

It seems that if 90% (or whatever %) of everything is crap, complaining about it is just stupid. You have to listen to a lot of stuff you don't like to find something you do, and then, it can be amazing. It's something that I find worth the effort. If you don't want to risk only infrequently being delighted, go listen to recordings of music you already like and sink into the safe repetitiveness.

You don't get the good stuff without an enormous amount of everything else. You can read that from the point of a listener, or that of someone writing songs. A lot of it is going to be crap. Don't give up.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 18 May 13 - 04:03 PM

Right. Try again......Marge said something about self-criticism; good point. In the past, I've written songs which I never sung out, and one or two which I only sung out once or twice, not necessarily because of doubts as to their worth so much as doubts as to whether or not they would have the same resonance with the punters. I listened carefully to the applause, and if it seemed less than enthusiastic, those songs didn't get sung out again, even if I still sang them to myself. This is all very well for Johnny Nobody (that'd be me) doing a local floor spot, but the danger is that once a singer/songwriter gets a following, he's likely to be singing to rooms full of devotees, who may greet all his songs with more enthusiasm than some deserve. Which won't set any alarm bells ringing. What Anne Lister has just said is a valid point; Singer/songwriters have been around for a long tome - Troubadours, Trouveres etc. But the old broadside ballads, many of which we are still singing, were not the product of singer/songwriters. The singers were Mr.& Mrs.J.Public, who had heard the ballad sellers singing them on street corners and bought copies, often in huge numbers. I have heard figures of up to 5 Million quoted for some of them, and that at a time when the population was something like 20 million. The sort of sales Tin Pan Alley could only have erotic dreams about. And here's my brilliant idea (well,I thought it was quite good anyway): what if, instead of yer singer/sonwriter being paid on the basis of 2x45-minute spots - maybe 15 songs, he/she printed up the somgs on individual ballad sheets, and sold them at £1 a sheet. It would soon become obvious that some were earning maybe £20 or £30 every time s/he saang them while others were earning nowt. I think there'd be some programme revisions. Of course someone is going to have a go at me about the question of artistic integrity versus commercial success. I think I have some degree of artistic integrity, but in a few months time, I'm likely to be off the road. You know, some of the greatest artists drew ejaculating phalluses in the margins of books....
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 18 May 13 - 03:59 PM

What we like, we like, what we don't, we don't and we are all perfectly entitled to our own tastes and opinions. Aren't we?

Absolutely. If you don't like something, leave it alone - it'll only make you miserable. Stick to what you love - it's no better than what you like, only it'll makes you happy, the same way the other stuff makes other people happy. Don't be fooled by consensus.

and you made matters even worse by suggesting that those who do not like singer songwriters and do like traditional music have right wing policies and are guilty of racism.

All down the years I keep meeting these people - self-confessed singer-songwriter hating (unless it's Eric Bogle, Jez Lowe or Allan Taylor) traddy purists who have this big Nationalistic subtext running through everything they do. They may not be in the majority (I must stress that the overwhelming majority of folkies are tip-top good-egg humanitarians who rightly baulk at any implication of anything right of New Labour) but this 'other lot' do tend to be quite vocal about it (after a pint or five). Plus the fact the only black faces you're ever likely to see in a Designated Folk Context will be those of fashionably blacked-up morris men sporting feather rimmed top hats carping on about our True Cultural Heritage & the Yardsticks thereof.

Folk is a relatively recent invention, the Folk Revival even more so. It will pass, but the Tradition of Human Music Making will continue as long as there are human beings alive to make it.   

*

singer-songwriters are more "traditional" than singers of traditional songs, as there have always been singer-songwriters, in every culture and at every time in history, but there haven't always been people who have researched and learnt (or copied) old songs from books and recordings.

Amen to that as well!

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: GUEST,Breedloveboy
Date: 18 May 13 - 03:50 PM

Well Wesley, as I said early I am not against singer songwriters per se, just the bad ones. Songwriting has become very popular in recent years and thats fine, but the current attitude that there is something deeply meaningfull, relevant, and in some way superior about burdening others with their own introspective ramblings is to me quite annoying.

I would be the first to admit there are good singer songwriters out there, but lets be honest at the amateur folk club level the vast majority range from embarrassing to just plain boring. Problem is a Folk Club audience is the only audience that will give these tortured souls a quiet enough platform upon which to bare their souls, so they like to say they are Folk Singers when in fact they have very little to do with Folk.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 13 - 03:12 PM

Oh - and you made matters even worse by suggesting that those who do not like singer songwriters and do like traditional music have right wing policies and are guilty of racism. Unless I very much mis-read your post. Did I?

DtG

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 13 - 03:10 PM

Nah, BD - Just plain fish and blood :-) I don't think anyone was suggesting 'Authenticity Land' though. Just saying they didn't like a lot of what singer/songwriters do. I have said the same although I qualified it by saying I thought it was less than 90% dross and the brilliant ones more than made up for it.

What really narked me is the attitude that if anyone says they do not like something, others then attack them. Just what is wrong with not liking something? We don't have to like everything do we? I am not fond of opera or diddly-diddly Irish stuff. But I reckon someone will jump up and down on me for that.

What we like, we like, what we don't, we don't and we are all perfectly entitled to our own tastes and opinions. Aren't we?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: Anne Lister
Date: 18 May 13 - 03:07 PM

*putting head briefly above the parapet* You could argue that singer-songwriters are more "traditional" than singers of traditional songs, as there have always been singer-songwriters, in every culture and at every time in history, but there haven't always been people who have researched and learnt (or copied) old songs from books and recordings. Of course some songs are better and more likely to survive than others. Of course there are a lot of mediocre songs around (quite a substantial number in the more commercial music world). But writing songs and singing them has always been a feature of the human race.
Probably criticising them has been, too.
*dodging the inevitable reactions and putting up defensive shield*

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 May 13 - 03:01 PM

I'm still not quite sure what Breedlove Boy prefers to a singer-songwriter.

All songs are written by somebody. They don't just spring from the ground. Just because the writers name has been forgotten doesn't mean that it wasn't written by a songwriter - somewhere.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 18 May 13 - 02:59 PM

I was writng a reeponse to something Marge said, and had just about finished, when I inadvertantly deleted the whole post. Meanwhile there have been several more posts. I hate computers and the people who invent, sell, design or even like the accursed things. I'll be back when I've calmed down enough to tell you the brilliant idea I had while writing the post which, no doubt is still retrievable if I send the hard drive to some git in Africa, but which I can't find. GRRR
JK

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 18 May 13 - 02:58 PM

Although the OP is obviously meant as a mere provocation, there is an interesting aspect worth discussing:

Who is more likely to produce a good song:

• (singer-)songwriters (including teams of such, like Lennon/McCartney)
• or teams of specialized lyricists, composers, and singers?

There are many examples, good and bad, in either category, but this may be due to the specific multi-talents of the persons involved, or lack thereof.

As for old European folk songs, I guess in the overwhelming majority of cases the lyricists differ from the composers. This includes many songs that are particularly cherished for their good match of lyrics and tune. Often the gifted "matchmaker" was neither the poet nor the composer.

Subject: RE: Advice to all singer songwriters
From: GUEST,John Foxen
Date: 18 May 13 - 02:52 PM

As someone who is occasionally guilty of writing songs I try to remember Ernest Hemingway's wise words: "The most essential gift for a good writer is a built-in, shock-proof, shit detector."
And if you can't trust your own radar then watch the audience. Are they singing along or falling asleep?
I once asked Sid Kipper why he had dropped certain songs. "They weren't getting the laughs," he said.
By all means write songs but we should all try to be our own sternest critics - although that's hard given the levels of criticism you can get from some Mudcatters :-)