BS: Unarmed soldier killed, (London-May 2013)

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 04:43 AM

"One law for Jim and one law for everyone else."
I was referring to Mike's saying he had nothing more to say to me
As much as I regret not being able to take part - and to respond to your reply to my points, we are under great pressure to finish the sound-clips and notes for a talk we are giving shortly, before this ******* computer gives up the ghost, which it is about to do.
Please don't make an issue of this.
"saying that I am an Islamophobe again"
I have apologised and explained my stance on this
"I have just trawled through your posts and it appears I owe you an apology - you have not actually taken a stance on this matter"
Please don't make an issue of this either.
"Don't know how some people can bear to be so predictable"
You too Mike - always there when needed - as long as you don't have to actually commit yourself (except when the mask slips, of course)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 04:47 AM

I pointed out earlier that there were numerous definitions of the word
No. You did not.
and I produced the quotes that made my point
No. Only ones that gave the non- violent meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 04:54 AM

I was referring to Mike's saying he had nothing more to say to me
You may well have been referring to Mike in the original post but in this post you accuse me of the same.

And I also apologise for bring up something you had already apologised for. I was just so annoyed at your double standards.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 04:54 AM

"Commit myself" to what, Jim? (I know I wasn't going to say more to you, but you are a very able provocateur, I'll give you that!)

I have "committed myself" to the conviction, giving reasons (which you may dismiss as a 'rant or a 'vicious diatribe', but a fat lot of support you got in your appeals for others to join you in denouncing them as such) that Islam is a faith mischievous in teaching and intent, whose presence in any numbers on the part of its adherents is likely to be detrimental to the interests of states where it is not the established system, and so such presence should be resisted.

This is a sincere and firmly held opinion, which I have made no attempt to conceal; and which contains no element reasonably defined as 'racist', except for the Brother-Paul-football analogues, whatever: it is just a matter of conflicting interests which will be exacerbated by too much close coexistence.

How much more 'commitment' do you want you mulish head-in-sand object, you!

Yeah yeah I know, mixed metaphor ~ it isn't mules who bury heads in sand. So sue me!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 05:28 AM

And I'm committed to Arsenal FC, Cambridge University, Andy Murray, rare steak with freshly-made English mustard, Quintin Tarantino, Natural Greek yogurt with honey, fried eggs easy-over with unsmoked back bacon & mushrooms & rye toast...

so away with you with your

"as long as you don't have to actually commit yourself",

you slanderous little stinker...

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 05:49 AM

""Don ~ You are not getting my point. I think I have made it clearly enough, but you just don't want to see it. So I won't go on about it. We know well enough what each other thinks.""

And you are not listening! You cannot extrapolate from one sixtieth to the whole and come up with a valid conclusion. In doing so, you mirror those we call radical, rabid, mad, and other epithets when they use the same method to recruit terrorists.


""Re this apparent self-contradiction you find in Keith's attitude, I don't see it as such. It is not a case of either it's all religiously motivated, or politically""

If you take a look at the early posts, that is exactly what Keith was saying.

Religious, NOT political. In fact he was scathing when somebody mentioned reaction to Iraq and Afghanistan, and dismissed it out of hand.

He wants it to be entirely religious! Do you?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 06:01 AM

he was scathing when somebody mentioned reaction to Iraq and Afghanistan

Hundreds die daily in Iraq, but not killed by us.
Fewer in Afghanistan, but again not by us.
So, why do they really kill us?
Why do they kill Christian people and children (many school kids this week) in Nigeria?
Somalia?
Mali?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 06:08 AM

I am not trying to extrapolate anything from anything, Don. I am simply expounding my perception of the nature of the religion professed by the whole of this demographic. What proportion of them believe in it, as the old French counting-out recitation puts it, un peu, assez, beaucoup, passionément, à la folie, pas du tout, I have no way of knowing, and do not even try to speculate. I simply think that its very nature does not bode well towards rendering its adherents likely to be congenial long-term close co-existers. That is the point I think you are failing to get..
.,,.

"He wants it to be entirely religious! Do you?" ~~~

Well, obviously not; or I wouldn't have posted what I did about the inextricability of the relig and the polit, would I? If that is what Keith said, then I obviously don't agree with that bit.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 06:25 AM

The stated aim of the Islamists is the establishment of Islamic governments, the overthrow of democracies, and eventually a global caliphate.
That is the objective behind all their attacks.

You could argue that is a political ideology, or an intention to replace politics with religious dogma.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 06:37 AM

Or indeed, Keith, as is the case, an inextricable mélange of both.

Got that now, Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 08:42 AM

You could argue.
Or you could say that to replace all politics with religion is a purely religious objective.
That is what the Islamists intend, and the clue is in the name.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 11:51 AM

Or a purely political one...

Wheeeeeeeeeeee ~~~ we could go on like this for hoursnhoursnhoursn

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 03:28 PM

""Or indeed, Keith, as is the case, an inextricable mélange of both.

Got that now, Don?""

I got it long ago.

You haven't yet! You asked earlier whether a book critic would be prevented fom criticising one book more than another.

You obviously think that said critic would be justified in judging these books from reading five or six pages of each. Based on that, some heavyweights of the literary world whose prose takes a bit of getting into, would have been panned by you.

People like Dickens, Conan Doyle, Mary Shelley and Bram Stoker for example.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 04:15 PM

So we are all too ignorant to be allowed to even have an opinion!
Why do you not tell Jim that his opinion is worthless too?
And what about your opinion Don.
Is that based on reading 5 pages out of hundreds and therefore worthless?
If so, why are you wasting everyone's time posting your worthless opinions based only on profound ignorance?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 05:22 PM

No point continuing this dialogue I think, Don. You have to my mind completely lost the plot.

See you some time on some other thread.

Maybe.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 03:46 AM

"you slanderous little stinker..."
Grow up, for ***** sake, you infantile little name-caller - you really can't take being shown up for what you have obviously been all along.
Your hissy-fits ring a little hollow coming from somebody who has accused those who criticise a terrorist state too severely (in your opinion) of being "Anti Semitic. or "Jew Baiting"
None of you have come anywhere near to showing that this murder has the slightest to do with religion other than the rantings of a madman at the scene of the crime - hasn't stopped you from using the killing as yet another pop at docile British communities.
Why do tiny minorities of fanatics attack Britain and the US? - The Gulf War maybe, or invented weapons of mass destruction, or selling weapons to despots weeks after the 'Arab Spring' started in order to ensure a continued oil supply, or generations of racial or cultural abuse....... or maybe it might just be because the world sat on its hands and watched while a murderous regime massacred hundreds of thousands of its civilians - who knows?
We certainly won't find out here as neither of you have the bottle to even tackle the idea that the reasons that were suggested right at the beginning of this thread (when there were some human beings around) might have some validity.
Keith
Your pathetic attempts to implicate me in something that is standard practice with you are just that - pathetic.
If I had attempted to produce favourable quotes for a word that everyone knows has violent connotations I would have selected this one, which is just as likely to be the cause of young zealots going to fight abroad as any other (from the same link I gave).
As I said - I link all my quotes - you seldom do, only when you are forced to.
Jim Carroll

"The best of jihad
During the Arab Spring, many peaceful demonstrations in the Arab world faced violence and gunfire by their government's regime. The gunfire encouraged the protesters and led them to revolutions, based on their strong faith in what is called "the best of jihad". The best of jihad was encouraged by their prophet, Muhammad, saying:[23][24]
"The best Jihad is the word of Justice in front of the oppressive Sultan [ruler]."[25]
In a battlefield context, when jihad is used to denote warfare, Ibn Nuhaas cited the following hadith to explain the meaning of the "best Jihad":
Ibn Habbaan narrates: The Messenger of Allah was asked about the best jihad. He said: "The best jihad is the one in which your horse is slain and your blood is spilled."[26]
In a similarly worded Hadith to the one above, Ibn Nuhaas cited a hadith from Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, where it states that the highest kind of Jihad, is "The person who is killed whilst spilling the last of his blood."(Ahmed 4/144)[27]
It has also been reported that Muhammad considered performing hajj to be the best jihad for Muslim women.[28]

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 04:18 AM

I like that, Jim -

"The best Jihad is the word of Justice in front of the oppressive Sultan"

Even though it is, yet again, cherry-picked. But seeing as everyone is at it, why not :-) I believe it goes a long way to say what I have been trying to say in this any many other threads. The enemy is never the ordinary people. They are like the rest of us. The enemy is the people who crave power and so send ordinary people to their deaths. On ALL sides.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 04:45 AM

None of you have come anywhere near to showing that this murder has the slightest to do with religion other than the rantings of a madman at the scene of the crime

He was the killer, so he was in a good position to know why he did it.
There is no evidence or even a suggestion that he or his accomplice are mad.
He now calls himself Mujaheid.

Also, the organisation he aspired to fight for said the killing "proclaimed Islam."

So Jim, you are wrong again.
There is every reason to infer that this killing and beheading were religious acts.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 04:53 AM

Grow up, for ***** sake, you infantile little name-caller - you really can't take being shown up for what you have obviously been all along.
Your hissy-fits ring a little hollow coming from somebody who has accused those who criticise a terrorist state too severely (in your opinion) of being "Anti Semitic. or "Jew Baiting"
We certainly won't find out here as neither of you have the bottle to even tackle the idea that the reasons that were suggested right at the beginning of this thread (when there were some human beings around) might have some validity.
Your pathetic attempts to implicate me in something that is standard practice with you are just that - pathetic.
the world sat on its hands and watched while a murderous regime massacred hundreds of thousands of its civilians........

& on & on & on & on &...

And he has the gall to accuse anyone else of ranting.

Fatuous pathetic little booby

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 05:29 AM

The Daily Telegraph. 23rd May 2013

"The setting was the Old Bailey in 2006, where four men were arrested for fighting with police and photographers as they turned out in support of a fanatic on trial for calling for British soldiers to be killed.
Among those led away in handcuffs that day, still arguing that he was within his rights to urge people to "behead those who insult Islam", was Michael "Mujahid" Adebolajo. Seven years on, Adebolajo, a British-born Muslim convert, is suspected of having answered the call to arms as one of two men who butchered Drummer Lee Rigby in Woolwich."

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 11:13 AM

""Is that based on reading 5 pages out of hundreds and therefore worthless?
If so, why are you wasting everyone's time posting your worthless opinions based only on profound ignorance?""

You get more bloody ridiculous with each post.

I say you can't judge the 6236 plus verses Q'ran by 109 cherry picked verses which Mike and others are using.

You then ask if I'm judging by five or six pages.

HELL-O-OH!.. What do you use for a brain?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 12:37 PM

"Even though it is, yet again, cherry-picked. "
No it wasn't Dave - I selected all of those as examples of the fact that there were numerous interpretations of the term 'Jihad' - for your benefit if I remember rightly - please read what I wrote.
"If I had attempted to produce favourable quotes for a word that everyone knows has violent connotations I would have selected this one"
The opposite of "cherry picking" in fact - I picked them all at random.
Apart from that - for what it's worth, I agree entirely with your comments on "ordinary people like us", which is more or lest exactly what I have been fumbling to say.
"He was the killer, so he was in a good position to know why he did it."
Not if he was a mad fanatic he wasn't. He also claimed that it was what was happening to Muslims over the world that inspired him.
Are you saying that he knew why he did it when it suits your own nasty agenda, but he didn't when it doesn't - can't have it both ways Keith?
Something you have yet to answer - if it was down to the religion they'd all be at it - are they all suppressing their cultural implants, d'you think?
"Fatuous pathetic little booby"
Tiresomly juvenile little name-caller - I'll get you after school!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 12:53 PM

Fairy Nuff, Jim - But I was not using cherry picking in a bad sense anyway - Just demonstrating the point that selected quotes can always be found to back up one's points.

I gave up believing such 'proof' a long time ago which is why I was pleased to see the link to the full article by the Moslem, half-Pakistani lady who's name escapes me without going back up the thread (Old before my time...) I found it quite revealing that by picking selected passages from it both sides could prove opposite points. Paul Daniels could not have worked better magic!

On the point of 'sides' - and this is to all parties concerned - do we not think that we should not fight each other as this only demonstrates that the people who really wield the power have got us beaten. Again.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 01:15 PM

"Something you have yet to answer - if it was down to the religion they'd all be at it -"
.,,.

Can such a fatuous, foolish, irrational, illogical argument ever have disgraced a decent forum?

It proves that missionary actitvity can't be inspired by religion, doesn't it? ~~ or we'd all be out there with our collars back to front, busy converting people, wouldn't we?

Fatuous pathetic little booby.



So where do you want to meet after school, then? I'll be bringing my big brother and his mates, mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 01:22 PM

Not if he was a mad fanatic he wasn't

There is no suggestion that they were mad Jim.
You are making that up.

Their claim that we are killing lots of Muslims in their lands is an empty one.
Muslims are killing lots of Muslims.
We are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 01:24 PM

Don, I was suggesting that you and Jim are no more knowledgeable than Michael or me.
If we are not entitled to an opinion, why are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 05:38 PM

Have you ever played that party game where you sit round in a circle, & one in the middle has to ask each person a question in turn; but the answerer always answers the question addressed to the previous person [the first question has to be answered just with some random answer]; and the unfortunate person in the middle, who is not in on the secret, has to work put what is going on? It's quite a fun game.

Don seems to be playing it. He has for some reason taken every time to answering the points he failed to grasp in my 3rd or 4th post back; without, tho, even bothering to read the ones in between.

Poor old Don. No wonder he has, as I said a bit back, completely lost the plot.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 02:31 AM

"There is no suggestion that they were mad Jim. You are making that up."
So hacking people to death on the streets of Hartford is 'normal' behaviour?
Explains your manic hatred of ethnic minorities, I suppose - remind me never to go there.
No answers, no response to facts, no logic, nothing - as pointless as every other hate-thread you've dragged out to extinction.
"the people who really wield the power have got us beaten. Again."
These hate-preachers wield no real power Dave - if they did their effect would be they skate on the edge of the law and take advantage of the discontent generated

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 02:31 AM

"There is no suggestion that they were mad Jim. You are making that up."
So hacking people to death on the streets of Hartford is 'normal' behaviour?
Explains your manic hatred of ethnic minorities, I suppose - remind me never to go there.
No answers, no response to facts, no logic, nothing - as pointless as every other hate-thread you've dragged out to extinction.
"the people who really wield the power have got us beaten. Again."
These hate-preachers wield no real power Dave - if they did their effect would be they skate on the edge of the law and take advantage of the discontent generated

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 02:56 AM

These hate-preachers wield no real power Dave

I know that, Jim. that is why I said the people who really wield the power. Those who pay the piper call the tune and the preachers are much more piper than payer!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 02:56 AM

So hacking people to death on the streets of Hartford is 'normal' behaviour?

So simple, naive Jim does not know that beheading is not considered unusual or aberrant behaviour among jihadis?

You did not know that it is actually the preferred method of ridding the world of the wretched Kafir.
You did not know that they love to video the proceedings for future masturbatory pleasure and to inspire the young to join their cause.

You take us all for fools Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 03:01 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 03:02 AM

Whoops - premature ejaculation.
"the people who really wield the power have got us beaten. Again."
These hate-preachers wield no real power Dave - if they did their effect would be far more obvious than it is.
They skate on the edge of the law and take advantage of the discontent generated by the situation the Muslim British people find themselves in - Pakistanis are the poorest and the most discriminated against in Britain today.
The younger generation are not prepared to put up with it in the same way as the older ones have - they kick against what's happening to them and they break with their own culture.
The crimes committed by young Muslims are as offensive to traditional Muslims as they are to the rest of us. The first statement by a Muslim cleric on the Woolwich murder was that it was "an insult to Islam"; the sexual behaviour of the criminal minority is directly against the "no sex before marriage" Islamic practice, as is constantly being pointed out by the traditionalists.
These islands have had their own brand of militant imams all to ready to stir up hatred and take advantage of discontent that has nothing whatever to do with religion - take a look at the behaviour of Ian Paisley and his mob of fundamentalist preachers who have done so much to keep the people of Ireland divided with their sectarian bloodletting marches and their "Papist spawn-of-the-Devil" sermons. - We're just about to enter into the 'marching season' and they'll be out in force again establishing their supremacy - can't wait!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 03:11 AM

Sorry Dave - cross posted
What the **** was that all about Keith?
Seems you've had an M and M moment.
Having used this forum as a racist soapbox, you are now tuning it into a porn site.
What on earth has any of that vomit to do with ordinary Muslim communities in Britain - or anywhere else, for that matter?
We appear to back to your old argument that all Christians who commit terrorist crimes are mad and all Muslim ones are sane.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 03:18 AM

It has nothing to do with ordinary Muslim communities in Britain.
It has everything to do with ordinary Islamist communities, here and elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 03:26 AM

'The first statement by a Muslim cleric on the Woolwich murder was that it was "an insult to Islam"'
..,,.,.

Back to dear old Mandy R-D

Ho hum

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 04:38 AM

"It has everything to do with ordinary Islamist communities, here and elsewhere."
No - it has everything to do with regimes who rule and absolutely control ordinary Islamist abroad - there are no identifiable "Islamist communities" in Britain and no Muslim community would ever commit or condone such an act.
Some of the states abroad who behave in such a way are among Britain's most profitable trading partners and political allies - did you not see 'Death of a Princess'?
This murder occurred on British soil - it was a frenzied attack by a madman, and is being described as such.
You are attempting to claim the killer was sane and you have selected one of the number of things he said in his rantings as proof that this was a religious act, while at the same time ignoring everything else - other than religion possibly being a part of his madness, it was not.
"Back to dear old Mandy R-D"
Your mask is slipping again
Go and play in the garden and we'll go for a nice walk later.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 04:57 AM

What mask? I hide nothing of my opinions. They might not suit your stupid predictable doctrinaire jejune infantile notions. But they are there for all to see. Calling their expression 'mask-slipping' is typical of your complete inability to think any concept thru, but always to fall back on the nearest ill-thought-out insult to ☝.

So it wouldn't take a lot of effort to think of some googol of individuals with whom I should prefer a nice walk, thank you very much just the same.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 05:08 AM

there are no identifiable "Islamist communities" in Britain

Yes there are. MI5 and the police are aware of many.

and no Muslim community would ever commit or condone such an act.
Not the majority of ordinary, decent British Muslims.
Apart from the public pronouncements, there were many who protested and showed their disgust spontaneously.
I remember those with placards saying "not in my name" after 7/7.

Only fool (you Jim) would deny that there is a significant minority who believe in Islamism.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 09:16 AM

"Islamism is winning the cognitive war – thanks to manipulative and gullible journalists."

The Telegraph

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 10:18 AM

"Yes there are. MI5 and the police are aware of many."
No there aren't - you have been ably, by stretching a point to claim two thousand 'Islamists' - risks to national security nationwide. - how many "communities" can you make out of that number?
Tell us where they are or stop making things up.
"Not the majority of ordinary, decent British Muslims"
M and M has just scuppered that one with his ""Back to dear old Mandy R-D" ("they would say that, wouldn't they?") - no matter how many "decent British Muslims" there are, none of them are to be trusted - your running-mate just said so.
"Islamism is winning the cognitive war"
Hi Boo-Boo, broken it off with Yogi Bear have you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 10:29 AM

Islamist vs. secular Muslim debate - shades of Mudcat: YouTube.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 10:42 AM

MI5 knows of "thousands."

What is the lower limit for a community Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 11:12 AM

"MI5 knows of "thousands."
What's yours - or MI5's
Name one Islamist community or link to proof that MI5 have identified made such an obscene claim.
Looked up "Islamist communities in Britain" – Google asked me "did you mean Islamic communities"
No Islamist communities in Britain – pure vindictive invention on your part.
Did find this though
Jim Carroll

MUSLIMS ARE WELL-INTEGRATED IN BRITAIN – BUT NO ONE SEEMS TO BELIEVE IT
British Muslims often express a stronger sense of belonging than other citizens, so why are they still seen as outsiders?

Leon Moosavi
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 3 July 2012 13.00 BST

'More than half (55%) of Britons would be concerned if a mosque was built in their area.' Photograph: Martin Godwin for the Guardian
In Britain today there is a mismatch between how non-Muslims often perceive Muslims and how Muslims typically perceive themselves. This disconnect is down to a tendency by non-Muslims to assume that Muslims struggle with their British identity and divided loyalties. These concerns were challenged a few days ago,in a report by the University of Essex that found Muslims actually identify with Britishness more than any other Britons.
This study is just one of several recent studies that have consistently found that Muslims in Britain express a stronger sense of belonging in Britain than their compatriots. Consider the following examples:
• 83% of Muslims are proud to be a British citizen, compared to 79% of the general public.
• 77% of Muslims strongly identify with Britain while only 50% of the wider population do.
• 86.4% of Muslims feel they belong in Britain, slightly more than the 85.9% of Christians.
• 82% of Muslims want to live in diverse and mixed neighbourhoodscompared to 63% of non-Muslim Britons.
• 90% of Pakistanis feel a strong sense of belonging in Britain compared to 84% of white people.
Those who work closely with Muslim communities will attest to the integrated position of British Muslims and that despite frequent exoticisation, British Muslim lives are much the same as any other citizen's. British Muslims also appreciate their ability to practise their religion in Britain without the type of subjugation that fellow Muslims are subjected to under despotic regimes in several Muslim-majority countries. Even though negative depictions may encourage people to imagine Muslims as similar to the 7/7 bombers who struck seven years ago this week, your average British Muslim is much more likely to be similar to a confident Amir Khan, a bubbly Konnie Huq or a hardworking James Caan.
There is, quite frankly, no major issue of Muslims not wanting to be a part of British society. But there is an issue with the common but unspoken xenophobia pervasive in British society that casts Muslims as outsiders. That is why despite Muslims repeatedly pledging their dedication to Britain, a consistent spattering of polls show that many non-Muslim Britons still view Muslims as a potential enemy within. Consider the following examples:
• 47% of Britons see Muslims as a threat.
• Only 28% of Britons believe Muslims want to integrate into British society.
• 52% of Britons believe that Muslims create problems.
• 45% of Britons admit that they think there are too many Muslims in Britain.
• 55% of Britons would be concerned if a mosque was built in their area.
• 58% of Britons associate Islam with extremism.The minority of Muslims in Britain who do view Britain with contempt – as indeed, we must recognise there are some – frequently explain their disaffection as a result of being labelled as outsiders and told they do not belong. Thus, the inability to appreciate British Muslims as typical citizens can actually create the very atypical citizens that are feared in the first place. Muslims want to be part of British society but their marginalisation may lead to some retreating to the margins.
If the myth that Muslims in Britain will not integrate is allowed to be propagated, it will only lead to the continuation of a harmful cycle whereby greater distrust and animosity is sown. The results of this can be devastating. Last Sunday marked the three-year anniversary of the Islamophobic murder of Marwa El-Sherbini by a far-right attacker, a crude example of an inability to accept that Muslims are at home in Europe. This intense rejection of Muslims is increasing across Europe, which is especially disturbing considering that a significant number of the far right would consider armed conflict against Muslims, as the case of Anders Breivik revealed. In Britain, we have seen several far-right plots that seek to undermine the presence of Muslims in British society, such as a recent arson attack on a mosque in Stoke-on-Trent. Clearly, there are weighty consequences to the dismissal of Muslims as fellow British citizens.
While politicians may claim that multiculturalism has failed, there is a strong case to be made that it operates successfully every day when Britons of different faiths, ethnicities and backgrounds convivially co-operate alongside each other to make the nation what it is today. Muslims are integrated, feel at home in Britain and are quite simply as British as the next person, even though this does not quite match the sensationalised cynicism that some enjoy indulging in. This rather unexciting conclusion is actually rather exciting as it lays to bed many of the unwarranted concerns that are held about British Muslims.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2012/jul/03/muslims-integrated-britain

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 11:41 AM

Looked up "Islamist communities in Britain" – Google asked me "did you mean Islamic communities"
No Islamist communities in Britain

That does not convince Jim.
We know there are at least thousands of Islamists and a community can be less than a hundred.

Talking of proof, why do you state the killers were mad?
Carrying out an Islamist execution is evidence of Islamism, not insanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 12:35 PM

You have totally failed to name ONE "Islamist" community and you have failed to point out ONE SINGLE statement that there are any "Islamist" communities in Britain - NOT ONE.
THERE ARE NO ISLAMIST COMMUNITIES IN BRITAIN
What a team - one invents anti Muslim propaganda and the other implies that no-one can trust what any Muslim says.
The B.N.P. are crying out for people like you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 12:53 PM

Stop squabbling right now, you naughty, naughty boys, otherwise it'll be straight to bed with no supper.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 01:29 PM

You have totally failed to name ONE "Islamist" community

Name, British Islamists.
Number, thousands.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 02:07 PM

"The term community has two distinct commutative meanings: 1) Community can refer to a usually small, social unit of any size that shares common values. The term can also refer to the national community or international community, and 2) in biology, a community is a group of interacting living organisms sharing a populated environment.
In human communities, intent, belief, resources, preferences, needs, risks, and a number of other conditions may be present and common, affecting the identity of the participants and their degree of cohesiveness.
Since the advent of the Internet, the concept of community has less geographical limitation, as people can now gather virtually in an online community and share common interests regardless of physical location. Prior to the internet, virtual communities (like social or academic organizations) were far more limited by the constraints of available communication and transportation technologies."

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 05:43 AM

Enough I think.
More than a month has passed.

The dreadful killing was committed by religious extremists, who shouted praises to Allah as they performed an Islamic style execution.

I think and believe it was religiously motivated, and I accept that Jim Carroll does not but think he is on his own.