Singing with belief

Subject: Singing with belief
From: Johnny J
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 04:28 AM

On a recent thread, a poster made the following statement...

"You don't have to believe everything you sing."

I thought this might be worthy of further discussion.

Although I don't believe that every song should be "meaningful" as such(After all there are lots of good nonsense songs)or necessarily always entirely represent your own sentiments i.e. some gospel songs may fall into this category and maybe love songs too, I wouldn't feel comfortable about singing a song where I was completely at odds with what was being expressed in the lyrics or something which I considered to be offensive.
If nothing else, I wouldn't be able to convince anyone else about the song if I couldn't convince myself.

However, I'm sure many of you might take a different view. After all, a singer might consider that he or she is similar to an actor and take on various roles, e.g. playing a "baddie" or somebody who is quite disagreeable. Many great actors relish such parts. Yet, in real life,they are "pussy cats" who wouldn't say "boo to a goose".
So, they would consider that their job is to "interpret" the song.

Of course, this already happens in musicals, opera and so on but, arguably, this is part and parcel of the acting role. Should a different criteria apply if these songs are taken out of context and performed elsewhere?
Another good example would be singing ballads where the performer is taking on the role of a narrator.

As I say, I don't expect every singer to have "lived" a particular song or to be 100% committed to every lyric and many songs are fairly harmless. However, I'd suggest that is is much harder to sing a song with real conviction if you don't personally believe in its contents...at least it is for an *amateur* such as myself. It may be easier for professional and more experienced performers?

There was a recent instance at my local singing group where I refused to sing a particular song which "bashed" and severely scolded church goers and lectured them that they had to be "born again" before they could be Christians.
Although I knew this might upset church people for whom we would be performing later, my main reason for disliking the song was that I(personally) wasn't particularly religious and didn't want to be lecturing others on how to live their lives or to shove a particular point of view down their throat especially when I didn't believe it myself. Thankfully, a few others in the group agreed with me and the tutor had to, reluctantly, back down.

I'm sure many of you will be able to give examples of subjects which you might refuse to sing about. I'd imagine that racist, sexist, and bigoted material in general would be a "No.. no" for most of us but some might wish to argue that even some of these songs are are OK as long as we can somehow "detach ourselves" from them?
What do you think?

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 04:49 AM

The song you mention just doesn't sound like a very good song! As an atheist, I can imagine singing a song celebrating how good it feels to be filled with the Holy Spirit - just not one that says "you lot aren't going to be saved and serve you right".

Protagonists of traditional songs get into some quite extreme situations. I can be singing about people committing robbery, adultery, rape, murder, suicide, incest, or various combinations of the above, and I'm right there - you need some imaginative identification to make the song work.

I think the key is identifying with the emotions of the song, however extreme the situation is. I like "Sheath and knife" ("I've just buried my sister, who had given birth to my son, and now I can't tell anyone about any of it"); I don't like "The shearing's not for you" ("I raped her, she's pregnant, I'm off"). The first has a much more extreme (and unusual) situation than the second, but the character's emotions are much more sympathetic.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: GUEST,Musket seeing entertainment as abstract
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 05:09 AM

Good subject matter.

I was a miner at the time of the strike and was saddened, to put it mildly, by both sides of the argument so to hear a retired college lecturer stick his finger in his ear and sing "Blackleg Miner" doesn't make the evening one of long entertainment....

Similarly, a couple recently sang a Provo song on the basis of history and the folk tradition, but their rather warped colours came out when I sang Harvey Andrews's The Soldier closely afterwards.

Yes, I often don't believe in what I sing. I'd join a debating society if I did. There are limits, and if you sing a song wanting a section of society to die, prepare to be challenged. Music is a strong political tool. I used to love helping out singing in concerts for residents of care homes and found them stimulants to get recognition from people with advanced dementia. But just because I have no need for religion etc, doesn't mean I won't sing them The Old Rugged Cross.

You sing for others, not yourself. Unless you have narcissist tendencies.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 05:14 AM

I can only think of two songs where the issue has come up for me and where I will flatly refuse to join in: "Dublin in the Rare Old Times" and "Hey Zhankoye".

In both cases the problem is that the song is not generally seen as saying anything unacceptable: for "Hey Zhankoye" most people simply have no idea of the historical background and the appalling atrocity the song is celebrating, and for DitROT it seems to be generally considered okay to attack a black immigrant as a menace to Irish womanhood because, well, we just don't criticize Irish songs, do we?

Whereas (in the UK at least) "detachment" works fine for a pro-Confederacy or Jacobite song. The causes they advocate are so thoroughly dead and buried that nobody could be manipulated by a song into supporting them.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 05:44 AM

yes, i think ias a singer do have to have some affilation with some aspect of the song to sing it well.
I would not BE ABLE TO sing hugh of lincoln WELL.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 05:48 AM

Jack, I've read a little about Zhankoye, including your contributions to a previous thread on that song, and I still have no idea of the appalling atrocity the song is celebrating. Stalin's deportation of the Crimean Tatars was an appalling atrocity, but it took place 20 years after the events celebrated in the song.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Johnny J
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 05:52 AM

"Hey Zhankoye"

I'm not happy about singing songs in foreign languages at the best of times when I have no idea what the language means but it doesn't seem to bother many people. Often tutors don't even know themselves or have the correct pronunciation.
They sound good or "clever" with good harmonies and performed in rounds etc but what's the point? I'd be just as happy singing "la, la, la" or playing a tune.

Re "The rare ould times", I'm not excusing the lyrics but I don't believe it was intended to be deliberately offensive. However, it wouldn't be acceptable or advisable to write this way today.
Back then, many people regarded people from other races and ethnic origins as a "curiosity" but didn't necessarily harbour any ill feelings towards them. It was more ignorance than anything else.
So, it was basically a song "of its time" but I quite respect your position for not wanting to sing it now.

I've never actually sung it myself but, if I did, I'd probably either leave out that verse or alter the words slightly.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: BobKnight
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 05:56 AM

I try to avoid anything with religion in it, as I'm a non believer. As regards "The Shearings No For You," there are several versions of this song. My version has no rape and no desertion. It's just a love song.

The Shearin's Nae For You

Oh the shearin's nae for you, my bonnie lassie oh
Oh the shearin's nae for you, my bonnie lassie oh,
Oh the shearin's nae for you, for yer back it winna boo,
And yer stammick's growin' fu' my bonnie lassie oh.

Dae ye mind the banks o' Ayr, my bonnie lassie oh,
Dae ye mind the banks o' Ayr, my bonnie lassie oh,
Dae ye mind the banks o' Ayr, whaur my hairt ye did ensnare,
And my love I did declare, my bonnie lassie oh.

Tak the ribbons fae yer hair, my bonnie lassie oh,
Tak the ribbons fae yer hair, my bonnie lassie oh,
Tak the ribbons fae yer hair, and let doon yer ringlets fair,
Think ye nae on doul an' care, my bonnie lassie oh.

Tak the buckles frae yer sheen, my bonnie lassie oh,
Tak the buckles frae yer sheen, my bonnie lassie oh,
Tak the buckles frae yer sheen, for yer dancin' days are deen
Aye yer dancin days are deen, my bonnie lassie oh,

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Johnny J
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 06:00 AM

I always used to think it was a song about bestiality too.
:-)

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 06:35 AM

Interesting question that can be taken on several levels.
Can you sing a song whose 'message' you find offensive or contrary to your own views?
Or
Can you sing say a supernatural song if you don't believe in 'Ghosties and ghoulies....'
We did quite a lot of work on this in various workshops down the years.
On the first - maybe - in the right context.
I used to sing 'Blackleg Miner' a lot at one time but realised I couldn't come to terms with the idea of one group of workers fighting with another over jobs.
Nowadays I would only sing it in certain circumstances, where I could introduce it, possibly in a 'feature' or themed evening.
In the middle of the 19th century mineowners took advantage of immigrants fleeing the Irish Famine by reducing the wages of the indigenous miners under the threat of being replaced by starving Irish labour.
Prefix that information into your performance and you still have a powerful song directed at the employers rather than the 'scabs', which is what the song should have been about in the first place.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 07:01 AM

Bob - that's a lot nicer!

Jack - I think you're conflating two different periods. Jewish colonisation of Crimea was organised from within the USSR between 1924 and 1932; Jewish families were resettled from Russia and Ukraine as well as coming to the region voluntarily from outside the USSR. The project was part-funded by the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee, which set up a group called Agro-Joint to help organise it. Land was 'redistributed' to the new settlements from the local population - which was majority Tatar, but also included Russian and German speakers - but there were no massacres or deportations. The massacres (of Jews) started in 1942, and the deportation (of Tatars) in 1944.

I wouldn't sing Hey Zhankoye myself - I don't think it's a particularly glorious episode in anyone's history - but the background isn't as bad as you suggested.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 07:04 AM

Jim - if you take the view that the Blackleg Miner was adapted from the Yahie Miners by Bert Lloyd (or his source), the original was a powerful song directed at the employers rather than the 'scabs'.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 08:18 AM

"Yahie Miners"
I'd forgotten Bert's explanation Phil and I go along with your point, but taking the text at face value and placing it in a British context, without that information it becomes a worker v worker song and you need to make it otherwise for it to work in a contemporary setting - I do anyway
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Mo the caller
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 08:19 AM

I don't join in the chorus of Champion he was a Dandy .
Some songs have jolly rousing tunes and choruses that don't quite go with the suject. Three score & ten.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 09:04 AM

I vividly recall being in Horton Barker's living room in St. Clair's Bottom near Chilhowie, Va. in 1955 for an evening of his singing—he even played my guitar to sing "San Antonio"—which I remember as one of the astonishing nights of my life.

When he sang "Wayfaring Stranger" and "Wondrous Love" he no longer sat, but stood in honor of the songs. I was stunned by his radiance in singing those two songs. Though I was an atheist then and am now, his quality of belief in those two performances was something that left me stunned.

I came back home singing those songs with all the radiance I could muster—a poor copy of what Mr. Barker had done, I'm sure. So I was very surprised after singing "Wayfaring Stranger," all three verses,

... But beauteous fields lie just before me, where God's redeemed their vigils keep ...

... I'll drop the cross of self-denial, and enter on my great reward ...

to a guitar-playing friend of my parents, Harrison Taylor, who sang many Burl Ives songs. I hoped she would hear the clarion call of that song as Barker had done it. What a surprise when she said "I never sing more than the first verse. I just don't believe in the others."

It threw me for a loop. If anyone had asked me, I'd have said it didn't matter whether I believed in any given song or not.

Since then my discomfort with songs that I disbelieve has grown. I have sung a number of gospel and hymn songs—even recorded a few (and I love to listen to impassioned gospel by the likes of Dorothy Love Coates). But singing, I carefully choose the songs that steer clear enough of theism enough not to disturb my disbelief. "Chased Old Satan Around the Stump," "What Kind of Shoes You Goin' to Wear," etc are fine. But I do, now, abstain from singing (except sotto voce over dishwashing, perhaps) the admittedly magnificent "Wondrous Love."

So yes, ability to believe in the song has come to matter to me. What makes me wonder is that there was a time in my life when I thought it couldn't.

I've come to feel the act of "belief" in itself is a risky, pitfall-filled way of approaching life, and I tend to use it with caution ... for what that's worth.

So does that mean I abstain from believing in any song I sing? No. But the song needs to be this side of that line. And though belief tends to be temporary, alive and electric during the song, it ends when the song ends.   

I don't know if that helps. Just the tale of one life's journey. Bob

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 09:20 AM

Well put, Bob. I know atheists who love to sing Sacred Harp music. I am uncomfortable on those, or other gospel songs. However, as you said, when you hear someone who is singing what they believe is the absolute truth it affects the listener, I think. There's a young dulcimer player/singer who is Christian who sings a version of "This is My Father's World" which makes my arm hair stand up. True, I was raised where songs like that were sung a lot. I wound up not buying into all the other stuff surrounding it. Same thing with political songs. As far as "Father's World" goes, I wouldn't try singing it. I have played it as an instrumental on guitar for my dad, when he was dying of cancer.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 09:22 AM

I was astonished, many years ago, hearing Mike Tickell singing "The Bonny Hills of Kielder". It had never occurred to me that there were even any bad songs about hunting, and here was this incredible voice singing a song with a glorious tune about how the finest way you could possibly spend your time was stomping around the countryside on horseback with a pack of dogs trying to rip some little animal to bloody shreds.

I couldn't do that one, but in modern Scottish culture hunting is about as acceptable as Greenland whaling or beating your wife in a sheepskin, so it doesn't bother me to listen to it.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 09:52 AM

Since I posted the original comment Johnny J quotes, a bit of history might be in order.... though it doesn't detract from the deeper relevance of the idea.

The American group, "Bok, Trickett and Muir" many years ago..(20?) gave a concert at Gaston Hall Georgetown University - Georgetown - Washington, DC.
They were always being offered new & interesting songs, and that evening they introduced a song called "The Middle Class Life is Best of All"..(I do not remember the author, and can find no reference to it now)

Ed Trickett invited the audience to join in on the chorus, remarking: "You don't have to believe everything you sing." It was quite a catch-phrase in the area for awhile simply because it WAS a useful way to explain...if anyone asked... why one was singing Gospel songs or 'politically incorrect' chanties or unedited Civil War songs for historical accuracy.

It is always an issue how to present certain songs that may, in certain circumstances or to certain audiences, be offensive or uncomfortable, but many singers feel that, with proper disclaimers, non-PC songs can be not only 'shocking', but also educational. Gospel songs, at least in the circles where *I* sing, are usually just accepted as part of the culture, even if only a small % of the audience 'believes' them.

The best example I, personally, have is a Green Irish song called "One Sunday Morning", in which an Orangeman is subjected to horrendous treatment..in only 3 verses. I have know it for 45 years, but sung it only 15 or so times... and always to make a point of how hate and narrow religious attitudes can do strange things to men's 'souls'.
   I also do "The Ould Orange Flute" at times... but that never seems quite as 'pointed'.

As to "the middle class life"....I dunno... I'd like to try rich upper-class, then I'll let you know.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: maeve
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 01:09 PM

This song, Bill, right here in the DT ? Middle Class Life Is the Best of All- Bob Coltman

---

thread (click)

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 01:47 PM

urrrkk.. Doesn't Google index the database? I never thought to look in the DB...

Yes... that one...

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: maeve
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 01:53 PM

Looks like Art Thieme was the one who added it. I enjoyed your story about "Middle Class Life." Ed and his family used to stay with me when they came to Maine, so your story piqued my interest in finding the song.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Elmore
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 01:57 PM

"Middle class life is the best of all." Sounds tongue in cheek to me. As for singing what you believe, a couple of my favorite singers of Christian gospel songs were Jewish. Not sure what their beliefs were. Many of us who wouldn't be caught dead in church enjoy sacred harp singing.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 02:13 PM

PETE SEEGER is an example of someone who sings with belief.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 02:31 PM

most of my songwriting is inspired and informed by my faith,so i do sing with conviction.i mainly do open mics but sessions as well.a few people find my songs offensive but most seem to respect me,even though not subscribing to my faith.as i am only likely to get 3 songs usually, i figure that objectors can go to the bar/loo/smoke while i,m on.and some do
as some of you have commented,-you appreciate the conviction behind the singing,even if not agreeing with the song content.that seems a very resonable attitude IMO.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 02:49 PM

"..a couple of my favorite singers of Christian gospel songs were Jewish. "

Like Helen Scheyner! People refused to believe me when I told them she was Jewish.... she simply appreciated a good song.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Elmore
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 03:19 PM

Bill D.: Helen was one of the people I had in mind. She sang everything with conviction.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 03:21 PM

Could I sing a song not believing it? Yes of course, If I needed to.
I'd give it the same effort as any song I sang.
If I wasn't in line with sentiment I would only sing it if I were requested to of course, just like any paid professional is required to in any industry, artistic or otherwise.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: GUEST,Musket giggling
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 03:29 PM

Some people find pete's songs offensive?

No shit....

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 03:29 PM

I too believe in singing with conviction- for those moments I will be in happy love or devastated with loss or looking forward to heaven where all will be well through eternity.

Some years ago a band formed in Juneau, Alaska, that featured country music. Problem was that they performed tongue in cheek, and I didn't like it.

I spoke to their lead singer about it and she said that in Juneau their approach was the only one that would work in Juneau, a town and community that tends toward jazz and rock and a *little* folk.

I still disagree with that view.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 04:35 PM

There are certain religious songs that really move me. I suppose many would be songs that I sing at Catholic funerals, like "On Eagle's Wings," and "You Are Mine," "Shepherd Me, O God," and "Make Me a Channel of Your Peace." I don't think I'd sing any of these songs at a singaround - I just don't think it would be appropriate. I think when you sing a moving song, it should be moving to both the singer AND the audience.

One of the most popular workshops at San Francisco's Camp New Harmony, is Bob Reid's "Songs of Significance" Workshop, and he does it almost every year. The workshop has to run two hours to accommodate everyone who wants to sing. In that workshop, he asks singers to sing something that touches their heart, and the general idea is that listeners will listen without being judgmental. I go to the workshop only sometimes, because usually I prefer workshops where I can get a little goofy. Two hours of heartfelt intensity, can be a little much for me. The word "smarminess" can come to mind at times when I'm in that workshop - whether that's fair or not.

But I like the general idea of Bob's workshop, because it lets people sing what's in their hearts, without embarrassment. One year, I was thinking a lot of my late friend Jim, who was my wife's previous husband. At his deathbed and again at his funeral, I sang Bob Franke's Thanksgiving Eve:

What can you do with your days
But work and hope
Let your dreams bind your work to your play
What can you do with each moment of your life
But love 'till you've loved it away
Love 'till you've loved it away.

So I told the story of my friend Jim and sang the song at the "Significant Songs" workshop. I couldn't tell that story or sing that song in every situation, but it worked well in that workshop (except that I wanted to sing it a cappella, and some guy with a damn guitar decided to accompany me).

But anyhow, that's a religious-sounding non-religious song that expresses what I believe. When I express what I believe, it makes me vulnerable, so I'm careful about when and where I sing such songs.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 05:16 PM

I don't hear anything in Dublin in the Rare Ould Times about a black immigrant being a menace to Irish womanhood. The protagonist says he courted a Dublin girl, but lost out to a young man, and they went to live over in England where he came from. And he mentions the chap was black and a student. Where's the menace to Irish womenhood in that?
...........
The crucial difference when it comes to stuff like racism and sexism and such is between celebrating or promoting such things and revealing them.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Janie
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 07:33 PM

Good music, like all of the arts, speaks to some aspect of making or finding meaning from a human perspective. Creativity is the act of making meaning. Whether one is the author, the singer or the listener - all are creative processes. Good poetry and good music are not literal, they are evocative. The person playing or singing imbues their own meaning, and the person listening does the same.

If one is unable to find a connection to being human or part of creation within a song, one can not sing it with authenticity. If one can find that connection, then one can sing or play a song or tune with passion and belief, whether or not one literally espouses the literal language of the song.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: GUEST,ST
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 06:22 AM

My view is I have to be able to feel the song rather than believe it – it's response at an emotional level that matters. Some songs I can feel even if I don't believe in them. I do, however, also try to take into consideration what the audience may take from my singing of the song. If I disagree with the topic covered by the lyrics, and the club/singaround is the sort where I can introduce my song, I can put it in context; if I'm just supposed to get on with it and sing, I may apply a different filter. I don't hunt, for example, and don't approve of "sport" hunting but I'll sing hunting songs at some places because I know they won't offend (and they do have great choruses for joining in with.) At other places I'd only sing them if I could explain my disagreement with the practice but appreciation of the history, pageantry and "country" culture that spawned them.

One example of a "hunting" song I sing is a version of "The Coast of Peru". I'll only sing it if I can put it into context as I can find no justification for whaling these days but there was a time when it was integral to the survival of some communities. I actually treat the song ("feel" it) as an anti-hunting song that sits at the time when whaling was changing from a means of food-gathering and subsistence to a time of greed and extermination. With a suitable introduction, lines like "Which made her to vomit and the blood for to spout" and "And you that wants money I'd have you to go; To the coast of Peru me boys, where the whalefish they blow" carry a real message for me. I don't "believe" the song but I can feel both the hard life of the whalers and the greed for money that turned whaling into an industry that's set to exterminate species.

P.S. And where would my repertoire be if I ditched all the hunting songs, incest songs, infidelity songs, murder ballads, slaving (Flying Cloud) songs, Man Selling his Wife songs, songs extolling delicacies like Lumpy Tums, etc?

P.P.S. I share McGrath of Harlow's view about DITROT. Or should I also be offended by its condemnation of students! (On second thoughts….)

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 06:46 AM

"If one is unable to find a connection to being human or part of creation within a song, one can not sing it with authenticity."

I don't know exactly what "authenticity" is. I see the human voice as primarily an instrument, I see singing as a technical skill you can learn to develop. I think I learned to see it that way when I had some singing lessons from a choral singing and early music expert. I've been taught to sing songs I personally loathed, it was all about learning to shape the right notes and tones - believe it or not, you can make a pretty good job of mimicking authentic feeling.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 07:09 AM

I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned singers/songwriters like Randy Newman, who brings to a fine art the "inhabiting" of a personality that is totally unlike Newman himself. And he does this usually to make a social or political comment.

A song like "Rednecks" (my favourite Newman composition) exposes the hypocrisy of a liberal attitude to racism - a style inherent in "Short People". And who could not warm to his "Political science": "They all hate us anyhow, so let's drop the Big One now." ("Boom goes London and Book goes Paree..."

Great stuff, but it's Newman in disguise, inhabiting a character that he's created.

Personally I eschew all songs about going to sea, whaling, ploughing, blues of the "Woke up this morning" variety, etc., etc. I love songs which have little or no meaning whatsoever - superficial trash from the days of music-hall to the 1920s and 1930s - what W.S. Gilbert might have called "airy persiflage".

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 07:29 AM

Re "Dublin in the Rare Ould Times": Yes - I recall posting in a thread a long time ago that a Dublin working class fella of the time would have taken AT LEAST as much offence at having his mot run off with a "stewdent" as with a Brummie with West Indian origins.

Regards

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Elmore
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 11:10 AM

Sorry, but I don't understand what the line from DITROT has to do with Singing with belief.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Snuffy
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 12:45 PM

As it's usually pronounced Birming-HAM in the song, I've always assumed that the "student chap" was an American from Alabama, rather than a Brummie.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 01:37 PM

Standard Dublin pronunciation!

Regards

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 01:41 PM

.. and that's Dublin Ireland, not Dublin, Alabama! ;>)>

Regards

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: CupOfTea
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 02:09 PM

Like Johnny J, the comment in a previous thread "You don't have to believe everything you sing" stuck with me like a mental burr. I've mulled this idea over numerous times with hard-core traditionalists, 'washed in the blood' Christians, Jewish banjo pickers who delight in Gospel songs, staunch Unitarians who always seem to be supporting great songs, people who sing casually, people who sing ancient sacred music professionally, Pagans, Atheists who wouldn't touch a Christian based song for any reason, Social/political Activists who wouldn't sing a song unless it was preaching something.

All those debates hit me strongly last night in a couple different ways. I went to a concert where I went to see cherished singers & songwriters Mustard's Retreat open for Peter Yarrow. Now, David and Michael can write great songs made for singing along. One of theirs is "Ours is a Simple Faith." While picking songs for a study of Folk Music & Faith, in the consideration of newer songs in the folk tradition, I left that one out because the presentation was for my Episcopal Church Lenten Study. "There is no heaven or hell" wasn't going to work in that context. At that point, I decided to skip adding it to my repertoire.

Then last night, singing along - with gusto- on this song, in an audience who were mostly hearing it for the first time, it solidified my feeling that there's a different criterion of "belief" in whether you are presenting the song (performance/song circle/open mic/worship service) or singing along in any of those same contexts.
I love me some Kipling, and sing "A Pilgrim's Way" regularly - but I wouldn't sing it for an offertory at Church.

Later, listening to Peter Yarrow singing his songs used in social justice and teaching youth about respect for others, with lots of "preaching to the choir" talk in between the music, it seemed to me that some songs that didn't move me as much personally or need to add to my repertoire, nonetheless came out as something I wanted very much to sing along with because of the deep, deep belief and conviction with which Peter sang them, as well as agreement with the message.

I appreciate Janie's grasp of the situation completely when she says:"Good music, like all of the arts, speaks to some aspect of making or finding meaning from a human perspective... Good poetry and good music are not literal, they are evocative... If one is unable to find a connection to being human or part of creation within a song, one can not sing it with authenticity..."

Joe's reference to "songs of significance" resonates, too. It makes me think that for me, the "songs of significance" are those with which we are in total sympathy and agreement. You sing those songs with a passion, intensity, CONVICTION that gives it an authenticity that casual singing doesn't have - or NEED.

It's all on a continuum from songs that are spiritually transcendental, to you won't even sing along with for their loathsome viewpoint. Context is an important factor in where a song lands on your particular continuum.

Joanne in Cleveland

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 02:15 PM

It seems to me that people learn a song for different reasons - nice tune, good plot, nice poetry, even a few good lines....
I have learned songs for specific reasons - feature evenings or theatrical performances for instance.
All these reasons will produce a reasonable performance, (providing you put in the work of course) but I don't believe any of them are enough to encourage you keep singing a song - I've found that a song you don't "feel for" will last as long as your original motivation wears so thin that you become bored with it - it ceases to surprise you.
I have not long started to sing again after a gap of 20-odd years and am finding it interesting to learn which of my largish repertoire I can just re-learn and which I have to totally re-think.
We started to record elderly traditional singers in 1973 and continued for thirty years,. We made a point of questioning as many as we could on what the songs meant to them, how they saw them, where they fitted into their lives, what they "saw" while they were singing them...... Without exception, everyone we asked talked about involvement, mental pictures, and above all "truth" and "belief".
Listen to singers like Sam Larner or Texas Gladden talking and you'll find a total committment to their songs.
If I was asked to choose between a skilful singer who could deliver his/her song perfectly and knew exactly where to put their fingers and when (assuming they sang accompanied), and one who is maybe past his/her prime, but was capable of communicating their feelings for their song - no competition - give me the latter every time - anything else is one-dimensional.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 06:12 PM

It certainly is easier to sing a song that you like, and are in touch with its sentiments, even if you have not yourself directly experienced the situation described in the song. I suppose when I was younger it was nice tunes that really attracted me to certain songs. Now that I am older (maybe slightly wiser?) the words have an increasingly important significance, and I'm far more likely to go off and search for the provenance if the song. (The latter of course being easier to do in the current digital age!)
I'd agree with Jim that there are some singers, who may have less than perfect voices (however you judge that!) and may not be the world's most gob-smacking instrumentalists if they accompany themselves, but DO know how to put a song across.
Times where I have had difficulty sometimes is in a group setting, where you have your own idea if how a song should go, but you have to take it faster/slower/ stress certain syllables ( and at least half the other singers forget this instruction!) and the whole song ends up being an institutionalised mush. (Just as with tunes, there are some that just do not lend themselves to group playing, especially slow airs, where personal use of ornamentation is crucial to how a tune sounds.)
I also do not like singing songs about domestic abuse e.g. Blue Bleezing Blind Drunk or Eric Bogle's Glasgow Lullaby: thankfully I have never been a victim of this, but it still makes me feel uncomfortable, as it is more than likely statistically that someone in the room will have experienced it.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 06:23 PM

I sing fervid Gospel tunes with as much elan as I can muster, when I like the music and tone of them. There are some songs which I just don't do--those that are hateful without redeeming social value, those that are clyingly sentimental without irony, and a few other types. The Unreconstructed Rebel is full of anger and avowed hatrred but I will sing it any day for the sheer attotude of its last line.


A

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 06:47 PM

I believe that it IS possible to sing about something you don't believe in, in certain circumstances, and this is how: As a songwriter I of course always write about subjects that I am interested in, but occasionally I present them from the opposing view to mine. Two such typical songs are "Thieves of Innocence" and "Traitor's Love". In the first of these I take on the role of the child soldier, through his abduction and training to his eventual becoming a murderer and abductor of others. It's not that I support that viewpoint, but I find that the use of the "first person" allows me to highlight the horror of those events better. In "Traitor's Love" I take on the role of the "false patriot" who is in fact a traitor, against Jim Causley's accused "traitor" who is in fact the true patriot. So I rail on about God-given rights and how traitorous it is to criticise one's country, when in fact I, George, believe the opposite.

In both of those I become an actor - I act the roles I am in fact personally opposed to. So while I (George) don't believe in the message of the lyrics, the character I play (the child soldier, the bigoted traitor) does believe. And that character sings them with what I hope comes across as sincerely meant conviction. My own beliefs support the overall message of the song, though they are in fact opposed to the words of the characters I represent. It's the acting that allows me to do that. Actors have to do that, otherwise one could never get anyone to play the baddies.

Extrapolating from that to other songs including traditional, for example hunting songs - I am against hunting as a sport - I can sing them because for those 2-3 minutes I "act" the role of someone who likes hunting. But there has to be a redeeming something that allows me to sing them, as I am opposed to both the message of the song overall and the lyrics themselves, and in the case of such songs it is my wish to help preserve those songs from another era and a different set of beliefs.

Thinking about it, there may also be an element of "degree of abhorrence" at play here. In other words I can sing hunting songs to preserve them, but I cannot imagine myself singing pro-slavery ones. I can imaging myself singing atheist songs (being in fact a Christian, though I like to think a non-fanatical one who is happy to live alongside Muslims, Buddhists, pagans and even Richard Dawkins) but not pro-fascist ones. And so on.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 10:05 AM

Seems to me a folksinger sings mainly to please himself and anyone who might happen to be present.

A folkie sings largely to wow an audience as part of a "performance."

So the question of "believing in the songs you sing" will mainly be a problem for the folkie.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 10:26 AM

I do not think the Dublin song racist, but I admit I don't do it when there are black folks in the group.
There are enough songs, why risk offence.
I enjoy rebel songs, but some sentiments I prefer not to voice.
I always leave out the last verse of Skibbereen, with its talk of going back to exact revenge.

I also omit the last broken token verse of Plains of Waterloo.
It is such a silly idea it spoils the previous verses.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 01:08 PM

I always leave out the last verse of Skibbereen, with its talk of going back to exact revenge."
Some versions have the lyrics remember skibbereen, I prefer to sing that version.

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Marje
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 02:02 PM

I think there's a difference between songs that are meant to serves some moral or spiritual purpose (e.g. hymns, and some political songs) and older songs with implied values which may or may not correspond to those of a modern singer and audience. I don't have a problem singing a song about going hunting or awaiting the return of a brave soldier from battle, because to me such songs are products of their times, and reflect they way people once lived and thought. The underlying emotions (delight in a gallop across the fields, anxiety and then relief when the soldier returns - albeit from some futile battle) are universal and not difficult to identify with. I can sing them with some sort of "belief". But if someone produced a modern song about why we should bring back hunting or send more troops to the Middle East, I wouldn't want to sing it.

The main point coming across in this discussion, though, is the importance (to most of us) of thinking about the words you sing, and feeling that they matter. You don't get so much of this in other genres of music, and it's one of the things that makes folk and traditional song special.

Marje

Subject: RE: Singing with belief
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 02:57 PM

Well put, Marje