Folklore/History: Irish Famine

Subject: BS: Irish Famine
From: Jim Martin
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 07:18 AM

"What happened back then eventually led to a rebellion, and I think sometimes the Irish tend to take stuff lying down.

"Sometimes we can be so stoic and accepting that we just get on with it. I think we are tough, but sometimes we should be more outraged."

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/grainne-shock-at-stumbling-on-her-roots-in-famine-village-29400960.html

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Jim Martin
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 07:24 AM

By all accounts, Thomas Carlysle was an absolute disgrace:

http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10163096/

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 09:01 AM

I think that many people who study the history of the time would conclude that it wasn't a famine at all, if you're using the word "famine" to signify some unavoidable natural disaster. It certainly wasn't one of those.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Megan L
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 09:09 AM

How foolish it is to dwell constantly in the past, for no one may alter that which has gone before.

Beware lest your absorption in the wrongs of previous generations stops you from acting to protect those being harmed today.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 09:13 AM

Well I think there's merit in trying to learn from history. A shame that Blair and Bush didn't bother to, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 09:28 AM

......A forgotten sign to our own time
When we witness the very same.

For from Pakistan to the Sudan,
Famine vistims they wait in need,
And a country like ours which has known this curse,
Must surely take the lead............

Megan. The above comes from a song which John Tunney wrote about the famine, and how we should use the memory of it to obliterate the conditions which cause famine in our time. I can't recall the entire text but maybe some kind soul will post it here.

In any event, it is the perfect antidote to people who complain about excessive reliance on history. Yes, it's far too easy to wallow in contemplative hatred of "rapacious English landlords", or of any bunch of exploitative crooks. The point however is not so much to get angry at things which have happened in the past, as to channel that anger into doing something about similar events which are taking place now.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 12:36 AM

I wonder if she knows the song Johnny Seioghe, about a workhouse manager and someone, apparently someone who really died in the famine and wrote the song, asking to be let in on Christmas eve...great rendition on our famine cd.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: michaelr
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 12:49 AM

"Far from being merely a natural disaster, the Irish potato famine ranks with the Jewish and Armenian holocausts as one of the great genocides of recent centuries, as the landed gentry exported huge quantities of grain and beef to England while an estimated one million starved to death and millions more were forced to emigrate.

"Shanakyle (from the Gaelic sean cill, meaning "old church") is a famine graveyard near Kilrush, Co. Clare. Thirty-nine hundred people died in the Kilrush workhouse in the years 1847-1849 and were buried in mass graves. This song was written in the 1860s by local poet Thomas Madigan. One of the most powerful and memorable moments of my travels in Ireland came when I sat in the graveyard and sang this song while gazing at the marker and at Inis Cathaig, the "holy isle" referred to in the song."

From the liner notes to "Lone Shanakyle" on my band's latest recording.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 05:52 AM

Johnny Seoighe is still very well remembered, and sung, around the Conamara Gaeltacht to this day. And not without good reason.

Here's a text and translation of it, taken from the Joe Heaney Archive at http://www.joeheaney.org.

Amhrán Sheán Uí Sheoighe
A Sheáin Uí Sheoighe tuig mo ghlór is mé ag tigheacht le dóchas faoi do dhéint
Mar is tú an réalt eólais ba deise lóchrann dár dhearc mo shúil ariabh
Is tú bláth na h-óige is deise breághtha i dhearc mo shúil i d-Teampall Dé
Agus as ucht Chríost, tabhair dom relief go gcaithfear oidhche Nodlaig féin.

Lá ar na mháireach nuair i fuair mé an páipéar is mé a bhí sásta agus ghluais mé an siubhail
Ní bhfuair mé freagra ar bith an lá seo acht mé féin is mo pháistí amuigh faoi an drúcht
Tá mé caillte, bruighte, feannta, dóighte gearrtha ó neart an t-siúil
Agus i Mhister Joyce tá an Work-House lán agus ní glacfear ann isteach níos mó.

Nach mór an cliú do phoball Carna ó thosuigh an lánmhain seo ag dul thrid
Ba deise breághtha méin na mná ná an Morning Star nuair d'eirigheócha sí
Tá an Bhanríoghan tinn is i na luighe lag síos, deir na dochtúirí go bhfaoi sí bás
Sé fios m'údair go ndeir siad liomsa faoi nach bhfuil sí pósta ag Mr Joyce.

Seo amhrán eile a déanamh aimsir an droch shaoghail 1847. Rinne file é a dtugtaí Micheál Mharcuis = Micheál Mac Con Iomaire as Cárna nuair a chuaidh sé ag iarraidh leath-chloch mine buidhe ar Sheán Seoighe, an fear nó an máighistir a bhí ar an min agus deite sé é. Nuair a chinn air rinne sé an cheathramhadh dheireanach den amhrán ag moladh na mná agus thug an bhean an leath-chloch dó.

Translation

Johnny Seoighe, hear my voice as I come to you in distress; for you are the lodestar of truest light that my eye has ever beheld. You are the flower of youth, the fairest I have ever seen in God's temple; and for Christ's sake, give me relief until Christmas night is past.

The very next day I got the paper, and I was content as I walked away; but I got no reply that day, with my children and myself out under the dew. I am tormented, broken and flayed, burnt and gashed from all the walking; and Mister Joyce, the workhouse is full and won't accept any more.

Isn't it a great compliment to the Carna district since this couple began to frequent its streets! The woman's countenance is fairer and kinder than the morning star when it rises! The Queen is ill, lying weak in her bed, and the doctors say that she will die; and the reason is, as the doctors tell me, that she's not married to Mr Joyce.

Here's another song that was composed during the Famine 1847. A poet named Micheál Mharcuis, i.e. Micheál Mac Con Iomaire, from Carna, composed it when he went looking for a half-stone of yellow meal from Seán Seoighe, the man, or the master, who controlled the meal – and he refused him.2 When his appeal was denied, he composed the final stanza of the poem, praising the woman, and the woman gave him the half-stone [of meal].

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 06:48 AM

"How foolish it is to dwell constantly in the past, for no one may alter that which has gone before."
The Famine shaped Ireland's history and made it what it is today, a permanently migratory nation.
It is still very much a part of the Irish psyche, not aimed against the British people as a whole but at an Empire "on which the sun never set - nor the blood ever dried", a power that allowed such atrocities to happen.
It is still truely referred to as 'Ireland's holocaust'.   
One of the finest books on the subject was written by an Englishwoman - 'The Great Hunger' by Mrs Cecil Woodham Smith - still unsurpassed in my opinion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 07:05 AM

I had ancestors (g-g-grandparents) who came across to England from Naas in Kildare as a result of the famine. They stayed here for some years and then, with the exception of my g-grandmother, disappeared off the UK records. They may have gone back to Ireland, gone elsewhere or just died. The father - one Thomas Boland - was employed as a bricklayer and navvy in Nottinghamshire.

It's worth recording that, in the late 1830s, 30,000 agricultural workers (including relations of my ancestors) emigrated from East Anglia to places like Canada and Australia as a result of the Poor Laws, the rise of the harsh Union workhouses and increasing mechanisation of farming. All fostered by the gentry and the clergy.

No matter where, the poorest and lowest classes have always been under a yoke of some sort.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 08:01 AM

History repeats itself because historians repeat each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 08:11 AM

Au contraire, GUEST - historians frequently disagree profoundly.

History repeats itself because the lessons that history can teach us are either misunderstood, ignored or forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 10:04 AM

Another historical perpective.
"How culpable were the British ministers of the 1840s? They are charged with having given inadequate, limited relief because of their commitment to a doctrine of laissez faire. However, given the scale of the problem and the acute nature of the crisis once the harvest had failed for a second time in 1846, there was little they could do."

Read more: http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/lessons-of-history-the-great-irish-famine#ixzz2Z7fhxnXV
http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/lessons-of-history-the-great-irish-famine#axzz2Z7f2StzS

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 11:34 AM

The Famine itself was, as has been pointed out, an unavoidable natural disaster.
What was far from 'natural' or in any way human were the mass evictions for non-payment of rent by English landlords - many of them from the property of the English landed gentry and nobility. These left many thousands of families to starve to death at the side of the roads or (when they were lucky) to die in filled to capacity because of lack of resources, staff or food or simply to die of untreated typhoid or cholera.
These evictions were more often than not followed by 'cabin tumblings', the deliberate destruction of homes and crops so the tenants could not return.
Often, these evictions took place in order to give the newly acquired homes and land to friends or loyal employees of the landlords - the history books are full of such cases - several songs drawn from real cases about it happening.
There are records (mentioned in Woodham-Smith's book) of relief ships crossing the Irish Sea three or four times without being unloaded in order to make profits for unscrupulous profiteers - with the full collusion of Government officials who nodded them through each time.
Locally (West Clare) people still talk about 'The Shilling Walls', built on the estate of a local landlord by the Famine Relief scheme - he was paid two shillings and sixpence per week to pay the workers, but only paid them one shilling and pocketed the rest (and got new walls built for free into the bargain).
There are thousands of reports of corruption on the part of officials and landlords, and of indifference on the part of the English Establishment.
The Government was well aware of what was going on - many of the worst culprits were members of The House of Lords (try Googling William Sydney Clements, 3rd Earl of Leitrim).
Even the church was not above inhuman behaviour.
We still have what is left of a "souper" school, which was run by Protestant churchmen who offered famine relief in the form of a daily bowl of soup only to the children whose families agreed to change their religion.
Had this corruption or at best, gross incompetence, taken place anywhere else in The British Isles heads would, quite rightly, have rolled - in a big way.
Some of the most comprehensive reports, and certainly some of the most powerfully evocative images came from 'The London Illustrated News', which sent reporters and sketch artists to capture information and artistic impressions from some of the worst-hit areas, notable Skibbereen, in West Cork.   
Interesting to see that Britain still has its share of 'Holocaust deniers'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 12:07 PM

A further documented fact to be dismissed by the 'deniers' - there was enough food to feed the Irish population four times over being exported out of Ireland throughout the famine years.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 12:12 PM

Jim's "holocaust denier."
Stephen Davies is a program officer at the Institute for Humane Studies and the education director at the Institute for Economics Affairs in London.
Dr. Davies attended the University of St Andrews from 1972 to 1976, graduating with a First Class degree in History. He also obtained his PhD from the same university in 1984, on the topic of the Scottish criminal justice system before the abolition of private courts.

He formerly taught at the Manchester Metropolitan University where he was senior lecturer. His academic and research interests include the history of crime and criminal justice, history of ideas and political thought, comparative economic history, and the history of the private supply of public goods. He teaches, amongst other topics, courses on the history of crime and punishment in Britain, and the history of the Devil.

He has published a number of books and articles on a range of topics. His books includeThe Dictionary of Conservative and Libertarian Thought (which he edited with Nigel Ashford) and just recently Empiricism and History. Among his published essays are two in the recently published collection The Voluntary City, on the subjects of the private provision of law enforcement and the use of markets and property to plan urban growth.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 12:28 PM

Not bothering to argue established facts with you Keith - been there before and it's a waste of time arguing with agenda-driven morons.
If you have any evidence whatever to disprove, or even challenge anything I have put up - feel free to do so.
Otherwise, take your claims elsewhere.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 12:34 PM

I take an interest, but am no historian Jim.
I quoted a respected historian with a different perspective to the ones already quoted.
You are free to agree or disagree, but what is your opinion worth?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 12:40 PM

Prof Stephen Davies, same piece.
"In traditional Irish history the blame for this great disaster is placed firmly on the British government. For exponents of this view such as Cecil Woodham-Smith, the death and suffering happened because of the incompetence, callous indifference, and rigid attachment to laissez faire of the British government and its Irish chief secretary, Charles Trevelyan.2 For some the culpability was even more serious. For nationalist historians the British policy was genocidal and the outcome intended or welcomed. This view is still widely held, and not only in Ireland. In 1996 an act was passed in New York State requiring that all schools teach the Irish famine as an act of British genocide.3 The reality is more complex, more interesting in some ways, and leads to very different conclusions about events both then and today.
.......
How culpable were the British ministers of the 1840s? They are charged with having given inadequate, limited relief because of their commitment to a doctrine of laissez faire. However, given the scale of the problem and the acute nature of the crisis once the harvest had failed for a second time in 1846, there was little they could do. Moreover, the root of the problem, as most contemporary observers agreed, was the nature of the Irish land system, and to support the system would only lead to further famines in the future. A policy that had the effect of keeping large numbers on the land and preventing agricultural improvement was bound to have disastrous results. Moreover, the Corn Laws prevented large-scale importation of grain into Ireland until after they were repealed in 1846 (partly because of perceptions of their impact on Ireland) and so the initial response of market forces to the acute food shortage caused by the blight was so blunted as to be minimal.
What should we learn from this terrible story? First, governments are not as powerful or effective in relieving disaster as many believe. The cry "We must do something" is very seductive, but often "doing something" will be ineffective, may even make matters worse, or will preserve the factors that produced the problem in the first place.


Read more: http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/lessons-of-history-the-great-irish-famine#ixzz2Z8HmKZss

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 12:54 PM

Odd, isn't it, that with the resources and power available to the Victorian ruling classes, they were totally unable to stop thousands of people from dying.

Nothing to be done. They were totally impotent. Impossible to have alleviated the situation one whit.

I gather Queen Victoria sent £5 - so that was all right then.

Stephen Davies may be an eminent historian, but I think I prefer to take a different view from him. It's worth reading about the Captain Swing riots, the changed attitude to the working classes embedded in the Poor Laws and the rise of the union workhouses in the 1830s to get a good idea of the mentality and abilities of the ruling classes when they chose to exercise their power.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 12:57 PM

So - nothing further on what I wrote?
Try these for size
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/blair-issues-apology-for-irish-potato-famine-1253790.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/victorians/famine_01.shtml
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 12:57 PM

How effective was US government in providing for New Orleans after the hurricane?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 01:39 PM

It wasn't a question of the ability to be effective - it was the attitude of the government and the government agencies that was a factor in how New Orleans was not given enough aid.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We have nations which can move mountains if they choose to - mobilise thousands of men and equipment thousands of miles to fight a war, for example - but choose not to in other situations.

The Victorians ammassed an empire, plundered the world's resources, conquered nations - but were totally impotent to do better in a national emergency on their own doorstep, just a few miles across the Irish sea.

Hmm... 'nuff said from me on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 02:05 PM

We might also look at the history of inclosure in England. Again theft by the rich from teh poor. Goodness me do I detect a modern parallel?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 04:39 PM

Using a famine as an opportunity to attempt to alter a land system, with the idea that the change might reduce the likelihood of famines in future years, is grotesquely irrelevant. It's like revising building regulations instead of trying to save people trapped in blazing building that was jerry-built.

Of course if you can reduce the population sufficiently, by death and other means, this does have the effect of reducing the likelihood of similar famines in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 04:45 PM

I do not think anyone is claiming that McG.

Robert Nielson.
The most controversial issue in Anglo-Irish affairs is the allegation that food was exported during the Famine. This was first claimed by Irish nationalists as a reason to end British rule and the Famine certainly put an end to the idea that Ireland would be a part of the United Kingdom for good. However, it is extraordinarily difficult to prove the claim true or false, and to my knowledge no one has. Records of exports simply weren't kept or have since been lost. It is certainly true that some food was exported, but there is no way of knowing how much or if it would have prevented the Famine. Food was also imported, though again, it is unknown where this outweighed the food that was exported. The starving Irish had little money so merchants naturally (in their mind) sold it abroad where they could get a better price. Had a ban on exports been put in place, lives would have been saved, but how many is unknown.
http://robertnielsen21.wordpress.com/2013/03/05/was-the-irish-famine-genocide/

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 05:04 PM

Jim, there is nothing on the face of this earth that can put a people down like a major bout of starvation. Ask people who come from a Russian or Ukrainian region that was affected by the Holodomor.

And all the British did during this time was increase the penalties for "stealing"; stealing to live. They were trapped within.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 05:45 PM

"Jim, there is nothing on the face of this earth that can put a people down like a major bout of starvation"
It is still put forward as a suggestion that the famine was welcomed by many English Politicians as an answer to the @Irish Question'.
Whatever the truth, it an undeniable fact that the greatest suffering in Ireland was the mass evictions and the total indifference of the Government.
As I have already said, "had this happened anywhere else in the British Isles...."
Much the same thing happened in Scotland, and was met with the same indifference.
Jim Carroll

"Potato famine[edit]
Main article: Highland Potato Famine
As in Ireland, the potato crop failed in the mid nineteenth century, and a widespread outbreak of cholera further weakened the Highland population. The ongoing clearance policy resulted in starvation, deaths, and a secondary clearance, when families either migrated voluntarily or were forcibly evicted. There were many deaths of children and old people. As there were few alternatives, people emigrated, joined the British army, or moved to growing urban centres such as Glasgow, Edinburgh, and Dundee in Lowland Scotland and Newcastle-upon-Tyne and Liverpool in the north of England. In places some people were given economic incentives to move, but few historians dispute that in many instances landlords used violent methods."   
Clearances
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 05:46 PM

The idea that the key to a better future is reducing the "surplus population " is pretty widespread, now as then, and that has often included seing merit in taking advantage of natural disasters such as famines, natural or manmade. Sad, but inevitable abd necessary...

As Dickens had Scrooge say, writing in 1843 ``If they would rather die,'' said Scrooge, ``they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population. Besides -- excuse me -- I don't know that.''

In the Iris Famine the typical pattern was for the absentee landlord to instruct the agent to get id of the urplus tenants. The agent, with armed police support, would comply. What happened next to the evicted tenants was of course nothing to do with the landlord. What happened next was typically that they died, by the road, in workhouses, or in coffin ships.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Iain
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 07:57 PM

Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it.
Edmund Burke
As many have said on this thread, the famine was a tragedy compounded by the inadequate response of the colonial masters in Westminster and their fear of creating dependancy. The end result was a catastrophe.
Vast numbers starved while foodstuffs were still being exported. The population showed a dramatic fall from the combined effect of starvation, and in many cases, forced emigration.
   Skibbereen was one of the most severely hit towns with mass graves
containing nearly 10,000 bodies. Today the town and hinterland has a population of around 3500.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 08:20 PM

The trouble with calling it a famine is that it makes it sound like some kind of act of God, which it wasn't. There was plenty enough food in Ireland but it didn't find its way into the mouths of the peasantry. The trouble with calling it a tragedy, well, the same. "Tragedy" is one of those words we apply to air crashes or tsunamis. The implication, again, is that the thing was an act of God. Isn't God an easy bloke to blame?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 10:02 PM

'It wasn't a question of the ability to be effective - it was the attitude of the government and the government agencies that was a factor in how New Orleans was not given enough aid.'

That isn't so. The question then as now is why they weren't effective. Much of the aid required was there; much of it wasn't utilized. In fact, a SAR team, very skilled, was in NO before the head of FEMA knew there was a problem. Call a spade a shovel.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 02:58 AM

Steve, it was a famine triggered by the blight.
All historians agree it was catastrophic for Ireland.
The old "nationalist" historians regarded the English as being uniquely uncaring and the Irish as uniquely the victims.

"Revisionist" historians challenge the view that England was culpable.

English and Scots peasants were also displaced and filled coffin ships.
Richard mentioned the enclosures, and in Scotland were the clearances.
It was the English surplus population that Scrooge wanted reduced.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 03:38 AM

However the parallel continues, did you see the fear in government of creating dependency.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 04:04 AM

"The old "nationalist" historians regarded the English as being uniquely uncaring and the Irish as uniquely the victims."
No - the documented facts present the English Government as such - deal with the ones you have been presented with or accept them as a reality; ignoring them is an indication that you have no proof whatever to their not being the facts.
More documented facts below
Jim Carroll

From English historian and Journalist, Robert Kee's 'Ireland – A History' based on the BBC/RTE Television series - 1980.

Peel's third decision was to remove all the protectionist duties on grain imported into the United Kingdom of Britain and Ireland in order to lower the price of bread. In other words, to repeal what were known as the Corn Law's. In English terms this was a big decision. But lowering the price of bread in Ireland was of little use to people there. One-third of the Irish population - those about to be hit hardest by the coming
famine - could hardly afford bread at any price. That was precisely why they lived off potatoes. Still, by the standards of the day Peel had acted quite imaginatively.
These standards of the day were not, primarily, those virtues of charity and selfless generosity towards the poor and needy of the Christianity then so widely professed, but the principles of another religion altogether known as 'political economy'. Certain almost unshakeable, sincerely held economic beliefs were to underlie all governmental policy towards the Famine. And the greatest of these was that principle of political economy which maintained that you should interfere to the absolute minimum with the market forces of supply and
demand because if you did so interfere, you endangered the natural flow by which supplies could reach the market.
The State could not gift people food because, by doing so, it would undermine market prices and thus make merchants withhold food from the market altogether - the last thing you wanted in time of famine. The flaw in this was of course in the supposition that the needy would be able to buy on the market at all.
The foremost guardian of these principles of political economy – a man who. as chief official in charge of relief measures, was soon to assume something like dictatorial powers of life and death behind the scenes - was a British civil servant. Charles Trevelyan, permanent Head of the Treasury of the day. An able, well-bred, cultivated man in his late thirties, he was given to reading aloud chapters from the Bible in a loud
sonorous voice.
Now Trevelyan's watchfulness for the rules of political economy had to be particularly sharp. His Prime Minister, Sir Robert Peel, was bending these rules to some extent by bringing any government food into Ireland at all. But firstly. Peel was careful to import a specific commodity for which there had not hitherto been a market in Ireland.
Secondly - and this seems almost inconceivable today - it was brought in not primarily as food to be eaten immediately by people who were beginning to starve but only as a gently-applied economic lever. The government would judiciously release Indian corn for sale from the government depots when it judged that prices on the general food market were rising too high. Thus, although Indian corn was stored in the Government Depot at Cork where the poor were dangerously short
of food since the end of January 1846. it was not until two months later that the first government sales took place and a near-riot was the predictable result. Even then such evidence of the strength of the demand was used as an argument for quickly suspending the sales, since it was judged that supplies must be held back for the inevitably greater pressure of the summer.
This was in April 1846. It was not until a month later, in the middle of May. that the government ordered the general opening of depots for the sale of the Indian corn all over Ireland. By then the poor were becoming desperate. Food carts carrying flour or Indian corn or wheat, oats and barley grown for rent, sometimes on its way to market or to the ports for export, were being attacked and there was a noticeable increase in sheep-stealing.
The possibility of such disorders had been long dreaded. Indeed, there were times late in 1845 and early 1846 when it had seemed that respectable British opinion was more concerned with the danger to property resulting from the potato famine than with the danger to those starving. And there was already before the House of Commons a so-called 'Coercion' Bill proposing special police measures including a curfew and punishment of fifteen years' transportation for breach of it.
But in Ireland, priorities seemed very different. The Freeman's Journal wrote on 15 April 1846:

"There have been attacks on flour mills in Clonmel by people whose bones protruded through the skin which covered them - staring through hollow eyes as if the) had just risen from their shrouds, crying out that they could no longer endure the extremity of their distress and that they must take that food which they could not procure.... As we pass into summer, we pass into suffering Every week develops the growing intensity of the national calamity."
The trouble was that the other arm of the government's relief action, the relief commission's subsidizing of local committees to help provide both cheap food and the money with which to buy it through employment on public works, was proceeding very slowly. Special local sessions had been held at which schemes for local public works such as road-building were presented and had money allotted to them, but these then had to be sent to the Board of Works for approval. Long bureaucratic delays often ensued before they could be put into practice.
When a boat-load of flour and Indian meal on its way from Limerick to Clare was boarded by a party of fourteen armed men near Smith's Island, held for six hours and emptied of a hundred sacks of flour and twenty of Indian corn the local paper, the Limerick Examiner.
commented:

"These people had hitherto been kept quiet by the promises that the government would every other day carry into operation the public works so often spoken of; and now when they see no immediate source of relief from that quarter I fear
they will resort to means such as the foregoing.
After all, every sort of food except the potato was there because the harvest in even' other crop but the potato was excellent. Food was leaving the country for export in vast quantities. Even more was coming in. Quite apart from the Indian corn, nearly fourtimes as much wheat was being imported into Ireland as exported. It was just not available to the hungry.
Trevelyan's chief concern was that such cheap Indian corn as was being sold, was going to people suffering from the distress normal to Ireland at that time of year between harvests and not just to people in distress because of the potato failure. And he had come to a severe decision. "Indiscriminate sales", he wrote with curious logic, "have brought the whole country on the depots and, without denying the existence of real and extensive distress, the numbers are beyond the power of the depots to cope with. They must therefore be closed down as soon as possible". In other words, while hoping for a good potato harvest in the summer of 1846, the poor must do what they could on the open market with such money as they could earn from the public works.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 04:19 AM

So Jim favours the "nationalist" version of the famine.
No surprise there Jim, but why should we ignore the views of modern historians who rufute it?
Again, what is your opinion as a historian worth?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 04:30 AM

"refute"

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 04:33 AM

I moved this thread from BS to the music section because the subject has a lot to do with music. I hope I don't regret that decision.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 05:19 AM

Records of exports simply weren't kept or have since been lost.

This is utter garbage. Every port in the Empire kept records of what goods went and out, and what the market rate for them was. (In the case of Leith, the one I've read most about, you only needed to look in the daily paper, which had columns about freight movements and commodity prices).

Whatever "qualifications" Davies may have been awarded by ruling-class finishing schools like St Andrews, he's an ultra-right Tory ideologue who wouldn't know a historical truth if it bit him in the arse.

The British state knew what it was doing. They'd administered a famine on the same scale in India fifty years before, had tried to use famine as a weapon during the American War of Independence, and casually sat back and let Shetland starve in the late 1780s. It wasn't like this sort of phenomenon was anything new to them. And no this was NOT the "English" - the guy in charge of India during the famine was Henry Dundas, the most powerful politician in Scotland, and the Scottish elite was still playing a disproportionate role in running the Empire two generations later.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 05:32 AM

For all I know, but it is hard to dismiss all the modern historians who have formed a different view.
Davies is but one.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 05:56 AM

"So Jim favours the "nationalist" version of the famine."
No Keith - I live surrounded by the history of the famine, my family were victims forced to flee the famine so it's a subject that interests me greatly, I have read and recorded a great deal of famine history - and most of all - I have posted a great deal of documented information on the subject, mainly from British historians who have based their findings on historically verified British documentation - REFUTE IT AND STOP ATTEMPTING TO SMEAR ME AND IGNORE HISTORICALLY VERIFIED FACTS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: bubblyrat
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 05:57 AM

I have read books about this terrible event . I seem to recall being surprised that there could be such utter reliance on just one single foodstuff , in a country entirely surrounded by water ; why didn't they catch and eat more fish ?? But, apparently , as the crisis worsened , all the fishermen sold their boats and nets in order to buy food .Meanwhile , many tenant farmers continued to grow cereal crops in order to raise the money for their rents . Even if there had been sufficient grain available for bread production ,there were too few mills in Ireland to cope with the task of flour grinding ; another consequence of total reliance on the potato .
                     I believe that , in desperation , maize was distributed widely , but unfamiliarity with this alien substance led to tragedy in many instances of people eating it raw and unprocessed ; I believe that many children suffered grievously in this case. I suspect that the Irish ,for whom I have the greatest respect , and therefore no wish to insult them , were ,in many ways , the authors , to some extent ,of their own misfortune . Sorry , but it does seem rather obvious . But , whatever the cause or causes , it was definitely NOT "genocide" ; there were no egg-headed crazed scientists beavering away in secret laboratories in order to cultivate "in vitro" potato blight .Well, probably not ,anyway.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 05:57 AM

As I said at the outset - Holocaust Denying - again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 06:06 AM

"Nationalist" is no smear Jim.

Were you not aware that "revisionist" historians do not accept the view that "nationalist" historians have for so long regarded as objective truth.
Sorry, but that is a fact.
I am not a historian of any kind, and am just a messenger on this, so please don't shoot me.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 06:17 AM

The revisionist response & interpretation: from the foreword to The Great Famine
R. Dudley Edwards & T. Desmond Williams (eds.), The Great Famine: Studies in Irish History 1845-52, 1956
The traditional interpretation of the Great Famine is
fundamental to an understanding of the character of
Irish society in the second half of the 19th century and
later. But if modern research cannot substantiate the
traditional in all its forms, something surely more
sobering emerges which is, perhaps, of greater value
towards an appreciation of the problems that beset all
mankind, both the governors and the governed in every
generation. If man, the prisoner of time, acts in
conformity with the conventions of society into which
he is born, it is difficult to judge him with an
irrevocable harshness. So it is with the men of the
famine era. Human limitations and timidity dominate
the story of the Great Famine, but of great and
deliberately imposed evil in high positions of
responsibility there is little evidence. The really great
evil lay in the totality of that social order which made
such a famine possible and which could tolerate, to the
extent it did, the sufferings and hardship caused by the failure of the potato crop.

http://www.iisresource.org/Documents/KS3_Famine_Interpretations.pdf

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Iain
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 06:51 AM

I would say the lesson for us all is that the elite cannot be trusted to look after the little man when the paradigm gets busted.
The enclosure acts in England, the Highland clearances, the creation of a dependency on the potato in Ireland leading to the ensuing famine after the blight struck: These events all show the ruling classes engineered the circumstances leading to massive migrations. It is not just Ireland that suffered, although the dependence on the potato and the blight made the situation in Ireland far more severe. To argue it was or was not a famine or a catastrophe is to merely argue semantics. The facts are in the public domain and cannot be denied.
The present day erosion of liberty and employment in the west is beginning to show some very uncomfortable parallels with the recent past. To say that the study of history is futile would seem to revel in ignorance of both the past and the future. You might as well stick your head in a bucket of sand, but beware that reality does not kick you up the ******.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 06:56 AM

Don't write "refute" when what you mean is "dispute", Keith.

"Deliberately imposed evil" has never been the point. Failing to intervene to save lives is another matter.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 07:27 AM

..or to intervene in a way that proves hopelessly inadequate.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 07:36 AM

Refute.
1. To prove to be false or erroneous; (overthrow by argument or proof:) refute testimony.
2. To deny the accuracy or truth of: (refuted the results of the poll.)

2, is what the historians do.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 08:08 AM

Neither the Concise nor the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary admit that second meaning. Nor does Fowler's Modern English Usage.

The problem with using the word when the second meaning is intended is that it risks implying that the first meaning is intended. That is very often the intention, though I am not claiming that that was your intention.

It's analogous to using "accused" as if it meant the same as "convicted" in a court case.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 08:38 AM

Thanks Kevin.

I googled, and the first 2 hits gave that.
The third hit was Oxford Dictionary which gave,

verb
[with object]prove (a statement or theory) to be wrong or false; disprove:
(these claims have not been convincingly refuted)

•prove that (someone) is wrong:)
(his voice challenging his audience to rise and refute him)

•deny or contradict (a statement or accusation):
(a spokesman totally refuted the allegation of bias)

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 10:20 AM

"Nationalist" is no smear Jim."
It is in my book - and it is not my position as you well know.
I have did over and over again in relation to Ireland that my position is that while the country is divided the trouble will continue, as proven by the "animilistic" (according to the head of the PSNI) behaviour of the rioters there over the last few days).
You have the evidence of the contemporary government statements from Peel and Trevelyan, you have the evidence from on the ground (all of which is available to you elsewhere (look up Lord Leitrim, the Vadeleur evictions, and everything else you have been given, the London Illustrated London News articles...)
Your unlinked cut-'n-paste is dated 1956 - way out of date as far as famine scholarship goes.
On the 150th anniversary of the famine there were a dozen or so new books published here, most of them confirming the stance that the British Government took - the "nationalist" account as you loadedly and dishonestly put it - they made it quite clear that the British Government were more interested in maintaining the economic status quo that they were in feeding the starving - as does Robert Peel's statement, which you have chosen to ignore.
You have recently been an open apologist for every shitty little despotic regime we have discussed and you have now added Ireland's history to that list - keep up the good work!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 10:24 AM

Kevin is right. The "deny" usage is a solecism.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 10:38 AM

Jim, I am not the historian, and I did not expect you to agree with them all, but they are eminent and respected.

I did not choose the terms "nationalist" and "revisionist" as applied to historians of the famine.
Google "revisionist nationalist history famine ireland" and see what comes up.

Nothing I gave is unlinked.
The '56 piece was from an up to date source for schools on the differing views of the famine.
The link is provided!

That final nasty little smearing swipe at me is completely unjustified and unwarranted, but you always have to make these things personal.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,George Lambie
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 12:27 PM

Are there any records of comparison with the Belgium potato famine and the experiences on the Continent? If they were dealt with substantially differently and they were of similar severity then that would add weight to the case for deliberate genocide. At the moment I accept the culpability of the British establishment in failing to effectively prevent the horrors of the famine in Ireland but also believe that the situation was more complex than being looked at from a modern perspective - there was still no democracy as we understand it today and no modern accountable political culture which could have mobilised resources - these were eventually to start to come about after the First World War.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 01:25 PM

"Jim, I am not the historian, and I did not expect you to agree with them all, but they are eminent and respected."
And yet again you refuse to respond to what has been presented to you.
You have documented evidence before you - from Government records, from the author and television producer who produced one of the most comprehensive series ever shown on British television - Robert Kee, a respected broadsheet newspaper sources reporting a British former Prime Minister's apology to the Irish nation for England's behaviour during the famine.... all unequivocal and fully documented proof of the events. You have even chosen to totally ignore the words of the Prime Minister responsible for the criminally murderous neglect of the famine victims by placing economic interest above saving the lives of starving people.
I can think of no better description for your attitude as Holocaust denial.
As for your past similar behaviour on other issues - far from being a "smear" - your reputation speaks for itself and has been archived.
And once again you are dominating a thread with yourultra-right propaganda.
Respond to the facts presented - in other words - piss or get off the pot.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 01:52 PM

And yet again you refuse to respond to what has been presented to you.
You have documented evidence before you - from Government records, from the author......

Must I tell you again I am no historian?
I read what historians write after they have studied all those sources.

I find there is an old traditional version of famine history, and a version that modern historians have put in its place.
It says little for your scholarship that you were not even aware of that dichotomy, never mind the accepted terms for the 2 sides of the rift.

All I did was to give something of the modern view after the thread had dwelt at length solely on the traditional, nationalist version.

You have recently been an open apologist for every shitty little despotic regime
That is a nasty smear and a lie.
I have been an apologist for no regime.
If I had been, we could still have a reasoned discussion of this.
Do not try to make this about me again.
Do not make it personal.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mg
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 02:00 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7LrYOS-Qk0

Here is Brendon Graham talking about his beautiful famine song..one of the most beautiful..as many are...this is about a mother leaving her red-head daughter in the graveyard.

I wish we had this song on our famine cd...and I am not trying to profit off it but share it..so PM me if you want to buy it..$10 US plus shipping. THere are several mudcat people on it...Seamus, Alice, Tony, Mick, myself...hope I am not forgetting someone...the songs are gorgeous and we are all of Irish descent ...it is in honor of our ancestors..mine came from Dingle and Tralee and possibly Blasket Islands and also probably CLonmanoise...three of the songs are about my own ancestors....we tried to keep the politics out..a little slipped in but it is mostly just hte human tragedy..which is repeated all over the world. I am not going to say one word about the English and what they did or didn't do unless I am going to go on record about what I did or didn't do with every famine in my lifetime...mg

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 02:06 PM

unless I am going to go on record about what I did or didn't do with every famine in my lifetime...mg
A strong message and example to us all.
Thanks mg.
Good luck and best wishes with the cd.
keith.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 05:24 PM

No famine is caused only by a natural disaster. All famines are made worse by economics.
The trouble in the Great Hunger was that British policy of 'laissez faire' at the time took the Malthusian view that the Irish were an inferior race that should be allowed to starve so there'd be fewer of us.
Scottish farms were struck by blight during some of the years when the Great Hunger was ravaging Ireland (1845-50 roughly), but the policy was quite different; aid was rushed in from London to support the hungry Scots.
Anyone who doubts the reality of the Famine should read contemporary reports. There are plenty of them freely available now online.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 05:37 PM

JTT
Just Today's Troll.

All shite.
No evidence.
No truth.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 06:02 PM

There is no question but that the view that the Irish were inferior was common in England at the time. Look at this cartoon from Punch in 1843 for a pretty typical example.

It is common enough in disasters to have some people blaming the victims as responsible for much of their suffering. Consider the case of Katrina, where so much was made of stories of rape gangs and looting, and people trying to flee the city were even met with armed police preventing escape.

In the 1840s there were no TV reports galvanising a do-nothing government into relevant action. No, there wasn't any plan to cull the Irish peasantry. What there was was a view that what was happening was inevitable, and largely their own fault, poor benighted creatures.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 12:55 AM

What the ruling classes of Britain went on to do elsewhere, they began at home:

Historians J.L. and Barbara Hammond in The Village Labourer 1760–1832 (1911) describe the workers who were driven into factories by the Enclosure Acts:

"The enclosures created a new organization of classes. The peasant with rights and a status, with a share in the fortunes and government of his village, standing in rags, but standing on his feet, makes way for the labourer with no corporate rights to defend, no corporate power to invoke, no property to cherish, no ambition to pursue, bent beneath the fear of his masters, and the weight of a future without hope. No class in the world has so beaten and crouching a history."

The Hammonds are obviously cultural historians. A nationalist historian would be someone who would deny or gloss over this "collateral damage." A cultural historian attempts to illuminate the experience of those who had no voice. British cultural historian, Hugh Cunningham, wrote a book that I read in my studies, "Leisure in the Industrial Revolution." He went into detail in an area that is seldom addressed even by other cultural historians, specifically, how the the changes outlined in the passage above deprived the lower class of their customary leisure activities. In addition to prohibition of their traditional festivities, public spaces, green spaces, swimming holes and foot paths were closed off to them by their betters, leaving them to the pubs.

In historically oppressed countries like Ireland (and Ukraine), cultural history and national consciousness go together as amending the record of the dominant culture to include the experience of one's own is part of cultivating national identity.

In the big picture, however, the question is first and foremost, the "Poor Question." This is the question that arose once a new extreme of poverty was established by the privileged, those who took greed and mean spiritedness to an unprecedented level. There can be no doubt that the Irish and Highlanders received an extra dose of venom in retaliation for their past efforts to rid themselves of their oppressors. The Holodomor is a parallel situation because the areas in both Russia and Ukraine that had traditionally been held by the Cossacks (who fought against the Soviets) were the areas hardest by the "famine." The Soviet government seized all their food for export in order to finance their technological goals. I don't see much difference in what the Soviets did in the name of socialism and what the British government did in the name of their own particular notion of "progress."

The Welfare State has alleviated the suffering of the poor to a significant degree, however, the model of disenfranchisement and resulting dependency constructed back then is still intact. And it bears mentioning that there are many who would gladly return to the days of the poor laws. All you would ever need to do is get out of the way and you would have it all back again.

For more than a century now, whenever the status quo has been threatened, for example in America during the great waves of immigrants at the turn of the 20th century or more recently the Civil Rights movement and counter-culture of the 60's, this is how the oligarchy keeps true democracy from emerging:

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/25/006.html

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 01:02 AM

Btw, michaelr, I did go to that site and check out your new album. Very nice :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 03:06 AM

McG, that cartoon is not evidence that the English viewed the Irish as inferior.
Ireland was portrayed as Frankenstein's monster to make a political point about developments there.
You could find Punch cartoons showing Irish people in an unflattering way, but if you are honest you will concede that English people, especially the poor, were also depicted in grotesque caricature.
http://johnsnow.matrix.msu.edu/images/fullbanner6.jpg

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 03:28 AM

"Anyone who doubts the reality of the Famine should read contemporary reports. There are plenty of them freely available now online."
"Just Today's Troll. All shite. No evidence. No truth."
Jim Carroll

From Sir Charles Trevelyan A leading exponent of this providentialist perspective, the British civil servant chiefly responsible for administering Irish relief policy throughout the famine years

AN ACT OF PROVIDENCE?
The Irish were portrayed as freeloaders in the British press of the time Recent historians of the famine, while not neglecting the baleful role of the doctrine of laissez-faire, have been inclined to stress the potent parts played by two other ideologies of the time: those of 'providentialism' and 'moralism'. There was a very widespread belief among members of the British upper and middle classes that the famine was a divine judgment-an act of Providence-against the kind of Irish agrarian regime that was believed to have given rise to the famine. The Irish system of agriculture was perceived in Britain to be riddled with inefficiency and abuse. According to British policy-makers at the time, the workings of divine Providence were disclosed in the unfettered operations of the market economy, and therefore it was positively evil to interfere with its proper functioning.
A leading exponent of this providentialist perspective was Sir Charles Trevelyan, the British civil servant chiefly responsible for administering Irish relief policy throughout the famine years. In his book The Irish Crisis, published in 1848, Trevelyan described the famine as 'a direct stroke of an all-wise and all-merciful Providence', one which laid bare 'the deep and inveterate root of social evil'. The famine, he declared, was 'the sharp but effectual remedy by which the cure is likely to be effected... God grant that the generation to which this great opportunity has been offered may rightly perform its part...' This mentality of Trevelyan's was influential in persuading the government to do nothing to restrain mass evictions - and this had the obvious effect of radically restructuring Irish rural society along the lines of the capitalistic model ardently preferred by British policy-makers.
Finally, we come to 'moralism'-the notion that the fundamental defects from which the Irish suffered were moral rather than financial. Educated Britons of this era saw serious defects in the Irish 'national character'-disorder or violence, filth, laziness, and worst of all, a lack of self-reliance. This amounted to a kind of racial or cultural stereotyping. The Irish had to be taught to stand on their own feet and to unlearn their dependence on government.
'Moralism' was strikingly evident in the various tests of destitution that were associated with the administration of the poor law. Thus labourers on the public works were widely required to perform task labour, with their wages measured by the amount of their work, rather than being paid a fixed daily wage. Similarly, there was the requirement that in order to be eligible for public assistance, those in distress must be willing to enter a workhouse and to submit to its harsh disciplines-such as endless eight-hour days of breaking stones or performing some other equally disagreeable labour. Such work was motivated by the notion that the perceived Irish national characteristic of sloth could be eradicated or at least reduced.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/victorians/famine_01.shtml#six

Also
http://www.victorianweb.org/history/race/Racism.html

http://www.eirefirst.com/archive/unit_2.html

Random quotes
...Furious fanaticism; a love of war and disorder; a hatred for order and patient industry; no accumulative habits; restless; treacherous and uncertain: look to Ireland...
As a Saxon, I abhor all dynasties, monarchies and bayonet governments, but this latter seems to be the only one suitable for the Celtic man.
Robert Knox, anatomist, describing his views on the "Celtic character", 1850

"I am haunted by the human chimpanzees I saw along that hundred miles of horrible country...to see white chimpanzees is dreadful; if they were black one would not see it so much, but their skins, except where tanned by exposure, are as white as ours.
- Cambridge historian Charles Kingsley, letter to his wife from Ireland, 1860"

"A creature manifestly between the Gorilla and the Negro is to be met with in some of the lowest districts of London and Liverpool by adventurous explorers. It comes from Ireland, whence it has contrived to migrate; it belongs in fact to a tribe of Irish savages: the lowest species of Irish Yahoo. When conversing with its kind it talks a sort of gibberish. It is, moreover, a climbing animal, and may sometimes be seen ascending a ladder ladden with a hod of bricks.
Satire entitled "The Missing Link", from the British magazine Punch, 1862"

"This would be a grand land if only every Irishman would kill a Negro, and be hanged for it. I find this sentiment generally approved - sometimes with the qualification that they want Irish and Negroes for servants, not being able to get any other.
- British historian Edward Freeman, writing on his return from America, about 1881"

You would not confide free representative institutions to the Hottentots [savages], for instance.
- Lord Salisbury, who opposed Home Rule for Ireland, 1886

...more like squalid apes than human beings. ...unstable as water. ...only efficient military despotism [can succeed in Ireland] ...the wild Irish understand only force.
- James Anthony Froude, Professor of history, Oxford

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 04:02 AM

JTT, and I doubt it was the regular JTT, posted about the famine in Scotland.

but the policy was quite different; aid was rushed in from London to support the hungry Scots.

That is, as I said, shite.
No evidence for it and no truth in it.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 04:53 AM

As far as I understand the Scots churches did a lot of money collecting and aid distribution. I think there was less pressure on population because of the earlier clearances. I know they had the same blight and the crofters suffered.
Overpopulation and mono culture is a problem that should be aired more often. I can see nothing good about the projected 10 billion of us. I should also like to see GB at about 40m.
- lower land/ house prices
-more wildlife habitat
-more living space- less conflict of land use.
- less global warming
I'm just not sure the best way to get there.
FloraG

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 07:53 AM

"That is, as I said, shite."
No it is not, it is slightly incompletete.
Many of the landowners in Scotland were British landed gentry, members of the House of Lords in many cases - The Duke of Sutherland being one of the worst offenders.
They voted money to be sent to Scotland to provide assisted passage to Canada for the tenants they evicted, thus using British taxes to clear their estates.
English churches and charities did send money to Scotland to provide some relief for the evicted tenants.
The only "troll" here is the self-confessed ignoramus who dominates these threads with his (usually unlinked) bespoke cut-'n-pastes which seem to be the sum total of his knowledge - guess who?
You have yet to respond to Trevelyan's (the feller who was doling out famine aid) statement on the famine being "God's punishment" and I doubt if you will.
Something else for you to ignore - during the Famine, (mainly English) landlords evicted a total of 109,000 families.
Given the size of Irish families (thanks to Christian Church doctrine), that adds up to somewhere between half and one million human beings left to starve and die of typhus and cholera by the English landed classes.
Now there's a bit of English history to be proud of, doncha think!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 08:19 AM

"That is, as I said, shite."
No it is not, it is slightly incompletete.

You are talking "slightly incompletete" then!
We were discussing the famines, not the clearances.

"Self-confessed ignoramus"
True I claim no specialist knowledge, but I have read some that are eminent and well respected historians who dispute your old nationalist history.
I posted some extracts.
Why would I not?
You have posted enough of the "slightly incomplete" stuff.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 08:51 AM

But in this case it was you complaining of the slightly complete stuff, Keith. Though you used another term for it.

There were parallels between what happened in Scotland, both with the clearances and the potato blight, and it relevant to discuss that. But the same racist contempt for the Irish was not present.

And of course it wasn't present just in Britain - refugees who survived the jorney to America found it there to meet them - here's an American cartoon in the same tone as the one from Punch

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 09:03 AM


But in this case it was you complaining of the slightly complete stuff, Keith. Though you used another term for it.

If you mean the "traditional" or "nationalist" history, I did not complain about it.
I just showed that it was not the only view.

Was I wrong to provide a couple of extracts, after all the pages of stuff that Jim has put up?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 09:04 AM

"racist contempt"
Can that be justified Kevin?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 10:29 AM

"That is, as I said, shite." It seemed reasonable to me to class that as a complaint.

I think my cartoon from Punch 1843 and some of the quotes Jim gave are ample grounds for the open exercise of "racist contempt" towards the Irish at that time. How generally this sentiment was held is an open questing, but it leaps out from any perusal of writing at that time.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 10:54 AM

"We were discussing the famines, not the clearances."
When in a corner - cry "thread drift"
The two are relatede as both show the contempt the Bristish establishment for what they regarded as a lower class of humanity - "chimpanzees" "damned by God" in fact"
"You have posted enough of the "slightly incomplete" stuff."
then address it with proof - or even argument from some your "eminent and well respected historians".
Did Trevelyan not claim that the famine came as punishment by god?
Weren't 190,000 abandoned to die on the roadside by English landlords?
Didn't the English nobility use British taxes to move evicted tenants off to Canada.
If anything has been said here is wrong or untrue, counter it with
argument instead of hiding behing mystery "eminents" you pathetic little man.
All the "stuff" I put up is verified by both contemporary documentation and long term research - how about tackling some of it head on
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 01:50 PM

McG, what I described as shite was, "Scottish farms were struck by blight during some of the years when the Great Hunger was ravaging Ireland (1845-50 roughly), but the policy was quite different; aid was rushed in from London to support the hungry Scots."

Was I right or is that an accurate description of events?

That cartoon is not evidence that the English viewed the Irish as inferior.
Ireland was portrayed as Frankenstein's monster to make a political point about developments there.
You could find Punch cartoons showing Irish people in an unflattering way, but if you are honest you will concede that English people, especially the poor, were also depicted in grotesque caricature.
http://johnsnow.matrix.msu.edu/images/fullbanner6.jpg


Jim, You have posted pages and pages of stuff.
I have posted two short extracts from two historians who represent a different perspective to your stuff.

I myself am not a historian and am not qualified to say whether the nationalist or revisionist version are more accurate.

You think you are, and condemn me for just reporting it.
You would have those historians silenced?
Their books burned?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 02:03 PM

Correction, I posted 3 short extracts from 3 historians.
The third was from an education site and provided the kids with examples of each kind of historian.
Would you ban that Jim?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 02:03 PM

"That cartoon is not evidence that the English viewed the Irish as inferior."
You seem to progress from stupid to more stupid
Enjoy
Jim Carroll

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/rear-window-punch-lines-that-kept-the-irish-in-their-place-taking-the-mick-1422052.html

http://irishstereotype.blogspot.ie/2010/01/racism-anti-irish-cartoons.html

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,grumpy
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 02:06 PM

I get right pissed off by eejits with no sense of historicity who fumble their way around Google and Wikipedia links to support their acutely slender cases.

The person called Keith A. should at least have had the decency to have read this piece by Christine Keneally - http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/beyond-revisionism-reassessing-the-great-irish-famine/ before getting on his high horse and deriding everyone else who disagrees with his malformed opinions.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 02:26 PM

"The person called Keith A. "
Peace bro' - you need to remember that the A stands for Arsehole
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 02:48 PM

Grumpy, you must have confused me with someone else.

I have not linked to Wiki once!
I have not made any case, slender or not!

getting on his high horse and deriding everyone else who disagrees with his malformed opinions.

I have derided no-one, but I have been derided.
I have not posted any opinion, malformed or not.
I have not been on a high horse.

I have provided 3 short extracts from historians with a different view to that provided by the other contributors.
That different view is now widely held by historians of the period.
If you were not aware of that fact, you should be grateful for the education.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 03:00 PM

If you still think that racist contempt for the Irish was actively propagated in those days after looking through the ones on this page...

"As we've dared to call the monkeys in the Zoo by Irish names, Erin's sons, in wrath, declare us snobs and flunkies ;
And demand that we withdraw them–nor should we ignore their claims–
For it's really very hard–upon the monkeys"

Just good fun...

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 03:04 PM

Grumpy, did you read the piece you linked to?
It contains this.

"The arguments regarding the role of the British government are not sustainable. In the summer of 1847, in the wake of the almost total second failure of the potato crop, the British government established soup kitchens throughout Ireland. At the peak of this scheme, over three million people, that is, forty per cent of the population, were receiving free rations of food
daily from the soup kitchens (which, even by the standard of contemporary famines, is a tremendous logistical achievement). To make this possible, a comprehensive and nation-wide machinery was created within Ireland in the space of only a few months. As a consequence of this scheme, mortality began to fall as, for the first and only time during the Famine, the problem of hunger was confronted directly. "

Illustration.
An Irish relief squadron distributing stores from HMS Valorous in the West of Ireland.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 03:24 PM

Grumpy, here is the conclusion of your piece.

Conclusion
Revisionism has polarised historical debate in Ireland and has stifled the more theoretical and philosophical approach to history which has developed elsewhere. Revisionism has dominated Irish historiography since the 1930s, and more intensely since the 1960s. However, as a new generation of historians emerges and more research is undertaken, it is unlikely that this domination will continue. This is not to say that revisionism in its various guises will disappear.

So, Grumpy and Jim, Revisionism is the "dominant" view among historians, and has been for decades.
How can you possibly object to it being briefly referred to in this thread?
What exactly is my crime?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mg
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 03:46 PM

I have read several free kindle books written by people involved in the famine one way or the other..legislators, land managers etc. I am not left with the idea that absolutely nothing was done or that people or English specifically were totally heartless. Of course, some were. But things were done..they were inefficient, created more problems than they solved, etc...but logistics were horrible of course in those days. They would buy Indian corn, usually fed to livestock, and have no way of grinding it. They tore up good roads and had starving people build unusable ones. One great tragedy is that funds were set aside for draining lands that could have put huge numbers of people to work actually growing food...these were separate and prior to famine funds. People fought hard and long for these plans to be put in place but they never were used widely I think. Quakers did a magnificent job as far as I read. Other religions sometimes/often put religious conditions into feeding people, such as renounce your faith and we will feed you. Catholics in turn did some bad things to Protestants.

They of course were not all English landlords. Some were Irish, some were Dutch, some French. Without income from the yearly pig from each tenant, they could not pay their taxes, buy food for starving peasants, ship them abroad etc.

There was a huge plan to send huge numbers to Canada..I think it sort of fizzled. They really did thrash around and look for solutions. Some were called to court after the famine to account for their behaviors.

So everything bad that is said is undoubtedly mostly true, but there are other truths out there to complement it.

As to why they just didn't fish..some very rocky places to start with. When shores were accessible, peasants were forbidden to go within certain distances of them so they would not catch fish. Likewise deer, rabbits etc...They ate grass..as they did in our lifetimes in Iran. We also had famines or starvation in Sudan, Ethiopia, Cambodia. It is a very cruel world, made worse by religions that force overpopulation, which is behind famine, war etc....

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 05:53 PM

Joe, if you are still following this, can you tell if Grumpy and JTT are really who they say?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 06:05 PM

McG,

"As we've dared to call the monkeys in the Zoo by Irish names, Erin's sons, in wrath, declare us snobs and flunkies ;
And demand that we withdraw them–nor should we ignore their claims–
For it's really very hard–upon the monkeys"

That is an example of racist contempt for the Irish in USA.
That whole page is overwhelmingly about the US and does not support you contention at all.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 06:28 PM

It's an American site, and not unnaturally focusses its attention on what happened in America, especially in the context of other aspects of racism there. Most of the cartons on the page were in fact from England, and the point of the link was the cartoons.

If you can look at those cartoons and not recognise racist abuse there is no point in carrying on this discussion.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: ollaimh
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 06:41 PM

the fasmine was no natural disaster. the potato blight was a natural disaster that affected most of europe, only the irish starved. in hungary, belguim, france and germany the governments fed their people. the british did not because of their slavish adherence to the evil laissez faire ideals which trumped all humanitarian efforts. one historian i read recently concluded by saying: :"the fact remains that they(the irish) were citizens of the richest and most powerfull state in history and that they lived withing a few hundred miles of the centre of wealth and power, and they were allowed to starve." she couldn't use the g word as brits are generally still racist deniers about most of their humanitarian abuses.

a canadian note is that here the hundreds of thousand of starving refugees arrived in coffin ships wit h little or no facilities. most were dying from disease due to lack of nutrition and the total lack of basic safetly and health services on the coffin ships. the quarintine island were where most ended their lives; there are a quarter of a million burried on grosse isle alone. leaving about a hundred thousand children as orphans. true to form the english in ontario rioted to stop the influx of the diseased hordes. the quebecois on the other hand(who were among the poorest people in north america at the time) took in the orphans. they made a general policy of allowing them to keep their names no matter the names of the adoptive parents. hence in quebec nowadays if you are named mulroney, burns or o'malley people assume you speak french. the quebecois, unlike the english are very compassionate people. many risked their lives to help those on the quarintine islands by illegally ferrying over food and supplies and many quebecois doctors died there trying to cope with the total hunanitarian disaster.

the british empire and it's laissez faire philosophy was one of the great evils of the history of mankind and spawned the greater evil of the present " free enterprise capitalist" empire of america. they want freedom to pillage the world and ignore the cost to others.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,WYSguest
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 07:15 PM

Is it a garpoon because the sound of the harmonica can so exquisitely pierce thru to the heart?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 07:36 PM

"hat is an example of racist contempt for the Irish in USA."
You've selected one link and totally ignored the others
You have still not commented on the on the "God's vengeance" statement from the man who was responsible for distributing the Famine relief.
You have totally ignored the fact that anti-Irish racism thrived in Britain right up the the passing of legislation made it illegal - and even then our 'popular entertainment' still had morons like Bernard Manning and Jim Davison.
Whenever you make one of your mindless statements you move on to the next one and refuse to acknowledge that you have painted yourself into a corner.   
"So, Grumpy and Jim, Revisionism is the "dominant" view among historians, and has been for decades."
You have been presented with contemporary statements over and over again - these are not "revisionist" (do you know what the word means?) they are the views that governed the actions of the British establishment that committed genocide in Ireland.
Don't you dare claim that the opposition to your disgustingly racist views are from two of us - once again you are alone in defending human rights atrocities.
Address the facts that have been presented to you.
One more try
Did Trevelyan not claim that the famine came as punishment by god?
Weren't 190,000 abandoned to die on the roadside by English landlords?
Didn't the English nobility use British taxes to move evicted tenants off to Canada?
Were economic interests put above the Irish people
Keep it up Keith - you have once again crapped in your own nest
"In the summer of 1847, in the wake of the almost total second failure of the potato crop, the British government established soup kitchens throughout Ireland. At the peak of this scheme, over three million people, that is, forty per cent of the population, were receiving free rations of food"
Jim Carroll

Glorious 1847!!
" The depots in the West were opened, but the food was at market prices. In England a new charitable organisation named The British Association was founded, and it collected over half a million pounds for the relief of famine in Ireland. The Association bought food and clothing and distributed them through the local relief committees. In January 1847 the British Government decided to set up soup kitchens, and the scheme of relief by employment was to be abandoned. The Irish Poor Law was to be changed, so that distressed persons were to be classed as paupers. Therefore persons not inmates of a workhouse would get no food, but a scheme for outdoor relief would be introduced later in the summer.
Black '47
As we enter Black '47, as the year 1847 was called the paradox of Ireland continued. The people were dying of starvation, whilst shiploads of food were leaving the country under military escort, and merchants were making a small fortune with massive prices. The Soup Kitchen Act was preliminary to the transfer of the distressed to the Poor Law, and it was to be carried out mainly through the Irish Poor Law organisation. Though subscriptions were to be collected whenever possible, and increased by Government donations, the money spent on the soup kitchens was to come out of the rates. To collect rates in Ireland was not merely difficult - in a large number of cases it was practically impossible.
Famine Workhouse Clifden, Galway The workhouses themselves were not in a condition to become centres of relief. In the parts of Ireland which were now most distressed the workhouses, from the day they opened, had been insolvent, dirty and disorganised, and at this moment when the transfer of the destitute to the Poor Law was proposed, several were on the point of closing their doors. Scarriff, in Clare, was about to shut, and at Clifden in Galway the workhouse had actually been closed and the destitute expelled.
The soup kitchens were very welcome, and each person received a bowl of soup and some bread. Trevelyan thought that famine was the will of God, and he hoped that the Catholic priests would explain this to the people. They had no strength left and they believed that is was the will of God that they should die. The soup kitchens were slow to expand, and were not able to cater for the millions of starving people. Private enterprise was functioning at last, and the ample supples promised by Government were actually arriving, but they were useless to the people. Destitution and disorganisation had gone too far: Ireland was ruined, and high prices and lack of money placed the long expected food out of reach of the starving. Meanwhile, at the end of the first week in March the total number employed on the public works stood at 734,000, but the Government began to close them down. This decision produced terror, hundreds of desperate appeals poured in, but all were ignored"
A new terror afflicted the Irish people. After the famine typhus fever or some other disease began to ravage Ireland. The main epidemic in 1847 was of typhus and relapsing fever, but at the same time other diseases afflicted starving Ireland. Dysentery, famine dropsy, diarrhoea and scurvy were horrible diseases which affected many people, resulting in agonising death. The courage of those who came to the help of the people is beyond praise. Doctors, Catholic priests, medical staff officials and many others all contacted fever and died. The work houses, fever hospitals and dispensaries did valuable work. Conditions in workhouses were very bad. Language would fail to give an adequate idea of their state. Fever patients were lying naked on straw, the living and the dead together. There was no medicine, no drink, no medical staff. In workhouses and fever hospitals, the epidemic seems to have reached its height in April, when during a single week thousands of inmates of workhouses were officially reported to have died.
About September 1847 the epidemic began to subside, when the number of people infected began to decrease. In many districts however the epidemic continued even into the following year. The total of those who died during the fever epidemic and of famine diseases will never be known, but probably ten times more died of disease than of starvation. The corpses were buried in fields, hill sides and ditches unknown to anyone.
In lonely districts fever-stricken persons died in their cabins without anyone coming near them, and their bodies were left to rot. In Clifden corpses were burned and in other districts they were buried under the cabin floor. Too many had died for a funeral service to be held
http://indigo.ie/~wildgees/famine.htm

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mg
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 09:42 PM

they said you could walk across the skeletons on the bottom of the Atlantic...

whoever else is Irish..did you not grow up with the idea that it would come again and know who was Irish and who wasn't? I always felt that..that it was a living thing that would return. and it is said to have come in on a terrible smelly fog...I have an idea that that is why so many Irish want shamrocks on their business signs etc..something to ward it off..of course then it would just announce that you were irish but the famine knew it anyway. some sort of passover symbol.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 12:48 AM

McG.
Most of the cartons on the page were in fact from England,

Of the ten cartoons, only one is English and it is not racist.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 01:12 AM

Jim
you are dominating a thread with yourultra-right propaganda.

I am not right wing and if you can find any such here I will quit at once.

opposition to your disgustingly racist views

I do not have racist views, and if you can find any such I will quit at once.

"The person called Keith A. "
Peace bro' - you need to remember that the A stands for Arsehole
Jim Carroll

Your bro' gave us a link.
That link gave us "The arguments regarding the role of the British government are not sustainable." and told us that " Revisionism has dominated Irish historiography since the 1930s, and more intensely since the 1960s."

All I have done is provide 3 short extracts from 3 revisionist historians.
Since that is the dominant view of historians and has been for over 80 years, that seemed a reasonable thing to do.

Please explain clearly why the dominant views of historians should not be even considered, and why you want them suppressed.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:22 AM

As per the conditions in Scotland I admit to being no expert but I do read a fair bit of Scottish history and the idea that the severity was dimisnhed because the help flooded in from London just isn't what I've read. The UK was far less centralised in the 19thC than it came to be in the 20th so Scots were basically in charge over home affairs. The same laissez-faire attitude existed at the start of the crisis in Scotland with road building etc going on and the idea of giving food freely was frowned upon. Though bad enough the consequences weren't as drastic as in Ireland for, according to the historians, various reasons. Firstly the sheer scale of the problem was less being largely confined to parts of the Highlands; the Scottish churches and charities moved reasonably quickly; and for the most part the Highland landlords (even if they were anglicised and probably at least semi-absent) were from the native stock and not as disassociated from the people suffering than was the case in the Ireland where the landlords were largely from the Anglo-Irish Protestant ascendency. The Scottish ruling class, the landlords in question and the Church of Scotland were basically homegrown and native whereas the equivilents in Ireland largely were not. So Scots themselves were in a better position to help their own!!

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:34 AM

Thank you.
That is also my understanding.
That is why I said,
All shite.
No evidence.
No truth.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:38 AM

"Ultra-right"
Anybody who attempts to excuse the wiping out of a million people and the driving out of 109,000 families to starve to death or die of cholera because they were unable to pay their rent is as right-wing as it comes.
Don't forget we have been here before with your defence of the perpetrators of a cold blooded massacre of unarmed refugees.
You have now firmly established what you are Keith - live with it.
The arguments regarding the role of the British Government have been shown here over and over again, not by "revisionist" or any other kind of historical analysis, but by contemporary documents, official records and by the actual words of the perpetrators WHICH YOU CONTINUE TO REFUSE TO RESPOND TO
You accuse people of accepting "revisionist history"
Revisionism is when you distort or ignore the facts in order to present a personal agenda - you and David Irving do it all the time.
You have been given dozens upon dozens of facts here - regarding the documented actions of the British government, establishment and the landed gentry, about the persistent racist attitude of the British towards the Irish, about business interests being placed above the death of millions.
YOU HAVE NEVER ONCE REFERRED TO THE EVICTIONS BY ENGLISH LANDLORDS, THOUGH I HAVEN'T THE SLIGHTEST DOUBT THAT, HAD YOU DONE SO, YOU WOULD HAVE DEFENDED THEM - THAT'S WHAT YOU ULTRA-RIGHT FLAG-WAGGERS DO
Answer the facts that you have been given and stop hiding behind accusations of "revisionist history"
Address the facts and figures.
"All I have done is provide 3 short extracts from 3 revisionist historians."
That is your total input to this discussion - nothing else.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:46 AM

You've been given a link to this and have chosen to ignore it - let's see if you do any better this time
Jim Carroll

POLITICAL INERTIA
A child digs for potatoes with her bare hands ©Before examining this issue of ideology in the 1840s and 1850s, however, we should review what the British government might have done to mitigate the natural catastrophe arising from repeated ravages of potato blight..
First, the government might have prohibited the export of grain from Ireland, especially during the winter of 1846-47 and early in the following spring, when there was little food in the country and before large supplies of foreign grain began to arrive. Once there was sufficient food in the country (imported Indian corn or maize), from perhaps the beginning of 1848, the government could have taken steps to ensure that this imported food was distributed to those in greatest need. Second, the government could have continued its so-called soup-kitchen scheme for a much longer time. It was in effect for only about six months, from March to September 1847. As many as three million people were fed daily at the peak of this scheme in July 1847. The scheme was remarkably inexpensive and effective. It should not have been dismantled after only six months and in spite of the enormous harvest deficiency of 1847.
Third, the wages that the government paid on its vast but short-lived public works in the winter of 1846-47 needed to be much higher if those toiling on the public works were going to be able to afford the greatly inflated price of food. Fourth, the poor-law system of providing relief, either within workhouses or outside them, a system that served as virtually the only form of public assistance from the autumn of 1847 onwards, needed to be much less restrictive. All sorts of obstacles were placed in the way, or allowed to stand in the way, of generous relief to those in need of food. This was done in a horribly misguided effort to keep expenses down and to promote greater self-reliance and self-exertion among the Irish poor.
Fifth, the government might have done something to restrain the ruthless mass eviction of families from their homes, as landlords sought to rid their estates of pauperized farmers and labourers. Altogether, perhaps as many as 500,000 people were evicted in the years from 1846 to 1854. The government might also have provided free passages and other assistance in support of emigration to North America - for those whose personal means made this kind of escape impossible.
Last, and above all, the British government should have been willing to treat the famine crisis in Ireland as an imperial responsibility and to bear the costs of relief after the summer of 1847. Instead, in an atmosphere of rising 'famine fatigue' in Britain, Ireland at that point and for the remainder of the famine was thrown back essentially on its own woefully inadequate resources.
DOCTRINES OF INACTION
Ruined cottage on the site of a famine eviction, Connemara, Galway ©What, then, were the ideologies that held the British political élite and the middle classes in their grip, and largely determined the decisions not to adopt the possible relief measures outlined above? There were three in particular-the economic doctrines of laissez-faire, the Protestant evangelical belief in divine Providence, and the deep-dyed ethnic prejudice against the Catholic Irish to which historians have recently given the name of 'moralism'.
THE IDEA OF FEEDING ...A LARGE PROPORTION OF THE IRISH POPULATION VIOLATED ...THE WHIG'S CHERISHED NOTIONS.
Laissez-faire, the reigning economic orthodoxy of the day, held that there should be as little government interference with the economy as possible. Under this doctrine, stopping the export of Irish grain was an unacceptable policy alternative, and it was therefore firmly rejected in London, though there were some British relief officials in Ireland who gave contrary advice.
The influence of the doctrine of laissez-faire may also be seen in two other decisions. The first was the decision to terminate the soup-kitchen scheme in September 1847 after only six months of operation. The idea of feeding directly a large proportion of the Irish population violated all of the Whigs' cherished notions of how government and society should function. The other decision was the refusal of the government to undertake any large scheme of assisted emigration. The Irish viceroy actually proposed in this fashion to sweep the western province of Connacht clean of as many as 400,000 pauper smallholders too poor to emigrate on their own. But the majority of Whig cabinet ministers saw little need to spend public money accelerating a process that was already going on 'privately' at a great rate.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/victorians/famine_01.shtml

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 04:03 AM

Anybody who attempts to excuse the wiping out of a million people and the driving out of 109,000 families to starve to death or die of cholera because they were unable to pay their rent is as right-wing as it comes.

I agree.
What has that to do with me?

"All I have done is provide 3 short extracts from 3 revisionist historians."
That is your total input to this discussion - nothing else.

That is true Jim, and you say I should not have, because you do not like it.
You would suppress the dominant views of historians.
That is as fascist as it comes.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 04:11 AM

"the british empire and it's laissez faire philosophy was one of the great evils of the history of mankind and spawned the greater evil of the present " free enterprise capitalist" empire of america. they want freedom to pillage the world and ignore the cost to others."

Thank you Ollaimh. I don't think I've ever heard it put so eloquently. I did I know that bit of Canadian history, however, it doesn't surprise me.

Now, was it all laissez faire -or did the British have a special contempt for the Irish?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 04:30 AM

Crivvens I did a big post to amend and correct some of my post above after doing a bit of reading Devine over breakie and for some reason it ain't showing! should have cut and pasted to save it:-)

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 05:10 AM

Punch, from where at least four of those cartoons were taken, was an English magazine. There are plenty more like that where they came from.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 05:18 AM

Only one is given as being from Punch and therefor English, and it is not racist.
Here is the link again for anyone to check.
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/10/06/negative-stereotypes-of-the-irish/

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 06:22 AM

GUEST, are you sure you didn't cut your big post out of this thread and paste it elsewhere after noticing that it wasn't really about the Irish Famine at all but rather about the fate of the British peasants during the Industrial Revolution?

Just checking :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 11:39 AM

SJL sorry the guest was me. No the post was an addition to and a correction to some of the points i made and was in reply to a post further up suggesting that London helped the Scots during the famine. So it was on topic. The famine did take place this side of the Irish Sea too and of course comparisons between the two famine areas are relevant. It was a long post which I completed and submitted and for some reason it failed to show on the thread. Will cut and paste to a word document in future when doing lost posts as it was annoying. Been kind of busy all day since but will get back to it at some point :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 07:07 PM

Here's a short piece on the famine of the 1840s/50s; if you'd like to go a little deeper into the subject, here's a contemporary book by a tourist.
Yes, that was the real me posting about the famine in Scotland. I wasn't there at the time; that's what historians say - maybe they're wrong, who knows. I wouldn't be as impassioned about it as Keith. It's a long time ago; my great-grandmother was orphaned by it at the age of two when her father, a rector, died of one of the various forms of Famine Fever, and the results redounded through our family, but not enough for me to insult anyone over it.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 01:45 AM

JTT I did believe you were a fake troll.
Sorry.
Insult?
Believing you to be a troll I dismissed what you wrote with excess of contempt.
Sorry.
(I have been called racist, ultra-right arsehole by Jim!)

You gave the Nationalist version of the Irish famine in your post, but you have just linked to a piece that puts almost no blame on Britain.
It is revisionist.
I did not comment on that but disputed your claim, "Scottish farms were struck by blight during some of the years when the Great Hunger was ravaging Ireland (1845-50 roughly), but the policy was quite different; aid was rushed in from London to support the hungry Scots."

Do you stand by that and will you support that statement?

I am not at all "impassioned" as you say.
I just saw the thread dominated by the discredited and outmoded nationalist version of history and gave three very brief extracts that reflect the revisionist view that has been the dominant view of historians these last eighty years.

Do you think I was wrong to do that?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 02:44 AM

"aid was rushed in from London to support the hungry Scots."

This idea that London rushed to help the starving Scots is simply not what I've read from Scottish historians and I read a lot of Scottish history. In fact if anything the attitude from the UK central gvt if anything hindered the aid programme in Scotland.

First of all things were easier in Scotland as compared with Ireland far fewer people were in danger from starvation. The famine area was largely restricted to the Northern Isles, the Western Isles and the western seaboard of the Highlands. The emergency simply wasn't as overwhelming.

Devine in his "The Scottish Nation 1700-2000" makes various points. Although there was aid from the central Scottish authorities the bulk of the aid programme was set up and run by three institutions. That is the Free Church of Scotland as well as the Edinburgh and Glasgow Relief Committees. Devine makes the point that Scotland was a booming economy and was better placed to help itself than Ireland was.

Likewise there was not the gap between rulers and ruled that existed in Ireland. Ireland was run by the Protestant Anglo-Irish elite – who differed from the bulk of the population on ethnic (for want of a better word) and religious lines to most of the population. The Scottish churches, ruling elite and landlords etc were for the most part native. Likewise Devine says, contrary to what I'd stated, that many of the estates in the effected areas had been sold to industrialists etc mainly from the Scottish Lowlands but he adds that this turned out not to be detrimental as far as the famine went. These landlords were simply richer and more able to help their starving tenants. I don't know how bad a landlord would need to be before reprimanded by the central authorities for neglect but according to Devine only 14% of Scottish landlords were reprimanded for not doing enough. Reading between the lines it suggests the percentage in Ireland would be far higher.

The main point though is to the idea of aid flooding in from London. There was some initial aid from Scottish bodies from within gvt but this was dwarved by the three institutions already mentioned especially the Free Church's programme. When later in the emergency the UK central gvt became more deeply involved it was detrimental to the aid effort. Not because they wanted Scots to starve but because of their obsession with laissez-faire economics and the idea that receiving from charity would breed indolence. Remember this was the age of the workhouses. Trevelyan who seemed to have the bigoted attitude that the Celt was naturally idle wrote "Next to allowing the people to die of hunger, the greatest evil that could happen would be their being habituated to depend upon public charity" The outcome was the imposition of the 'destitution test' where aid would no longer simply be given out. Instead a whole days work would need to be done prior to receiving aid and it was no longer given out on a daily basis. An elaborate bureaucracy was set up to impose the new approach. The aid organisations in Scotland protested against the new impositions and the Free Church itself called them 'systemised starvation' but they were basically enforced through the later years of 1848 and 1849. Devine describes it as transforming what was initially within Scotland a great philanthropic endeavour into an ideological crusade to reform a population represented as inadequate and in need of improvement.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 04:42 AM

Good coverage there by Allen Conn.

I should clarify - I'm not at all saying that the famine in Scotland was not a terrible one - it's a sensitive subject in Scotland, I know, because the massive clearances of tenants, to be replaced by more profitable and compliant sheep, were done by "our own" rather than by the hated government in Britain.

No, I don't give "the nationalist version" of anything; I give the human version.

There were two groups of real heroes in the Irish Famine: the Quakers and the Choctaw people.

The Quakers, meticulous and wary of groupthink, made studies of the situation and did what they could to rectify it, setting up soup kitchens where people could get food without any requirement to betray their own sect, and buying nets and licences for the starving fishing families of the Claddagh, for instance. They made a study of fishing conditions and revealed that the normally rich fish stocks off the west coast of Ireland had moved due to climatic changes and the seas were virtually empty.

The Choctaw collected a large fund and sent it to buy food for the starving, an action which has led to continued links to this day.

Others internationally helped; in one case an Indian maharajah, whose name escapes me right now, was about to send a good chunk of money when he was quietly taken aside and asked to send less - his donation was much larger than Queen Victoria's, and she would have been embarrassed, though starvation (http://espressostalinist.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/famine.gif) was possibly more embarrassing for those without food... Fynes Morrison's description of three children "all eating and gnawing with their teeth the entrails of their dead mother" is typical of the reports. But maybe this is just the nationalist viewpoint, and it was rather nice really.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 04:44 AM

(Unclear - that Fynes Morrison description was one of the earlier famines, in 1617; there had been a series of famines in Ireland since the invasions, caused deliberately as a weapon of war.)

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 05:07 AM

There is only one version of the horror and unspeakable suffering.

Your statement, " the Irish were an inferior race that should be allowed to starve so there'd be fewer of us." is the nationalist narrative where the famine was used as a propaganda weapon, and generations of Irish schoolchildren have been brainwashed with it.

That is the version of history that was exclusively given in this thread, apart from my 3 short extracts, even though historians have recognised for over eighty years now that it is false.

And look at how angry it has made some of you just to have the accepted version of history just briefly referred to.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 05:13 AM

From JTT's "short piece."
The first attack of phytophthera infestans occurred while Sir Robert
Peel was prime minister. Peel had personal experience of dealing
with famine in Ireland, and took forceful measures to prevent excess
mortality in 1845/6. These included public works and the ....

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 09:55 AM

In any case, Alan, you gave me 3 things to look up the other day- crivvens, breakie and this guy:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/news/home-news/famine-myth-warning-by-top-h

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 10:40 AM

Sorry Allan with ll :-)

Keith, I really do believe that it was the position of Britain at the time that the Irish were an inferior people and that it was better to let them starve than to help them. As someone pointed out above, the same bigotry was waiting for them when they arrived in America.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 12:02 PM

I know you really believe it SJL.
I am sure you are a decent, honest person.
You believe a lie, not according to me, but according to the profession of historians who have dedicated their whole lives to uncovering the truth of this.
You believe a lie pedalled by fanatical nationalists for their own political purposes.
It has been exposed as a lie for more than eighty years, but it is perpetuated and fed to each new generation to sustain the hatred that is the blight that now afflicts the land.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 02:37 PM

Out of curiosity Keith, what do you think of this historian?

Gregory Clark was born in Scotland, attended Cambridge and Harvard and now teaches at the University of California. He's written a few books. This is a review of one of them:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/07/science/07indu.html?pagewanted=print&_r=0

You might think this is a thread drift but I think of it as the starting point of the saga that led up to the famine.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 05:20 AM

I am not qualified to judge, but from your review I am sure he is excellent in his field.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 07:46 AM

No Keith.

The amazing success of the Industrial Revolution in Britain was made possible by the harshest, cruelest exploitation of the lower class imaginable. Yet, this man barely acknowledges their contribution when forming his theory of affluence and claims further that once the surplus population of common laborers was reduced, society was much improved because:

"Thrift, prudence, negotiation and hard work were becoming values for communities that previously had been spendthrift, impulsive, violent and leisure loving," Dr. Clark writes.

Clark frames this as "downward mobility," and claims the lower class was ultimately replaced by better stock with the sterling qualities listed above. No sir.

While it's possible that as the upper classes propelled enough peasants to their deaths, there was some "downward mobility," I would suggest that this wouldn't be voluntary but rather the result of a downward push from above. Who would willingly downgrade from a middle class profession (lawyer, doctor, teacher, clergy, clerk, accountant, banker, businessman, public administrator) to common laborer or one of the many occupations in which they would actually have to work hard? Hell, no. And does he do the Brits justice? Hell, no.

It is far more likely that thrift, prudence, negotiation and work ethic were instilled into the working class by the MIDDLE and upper classes in the interests of benefitting themselves. They literally molded the working class. Did that hurt?

Nah. It didn't hurt one bit. The rest of you are crybabies. Live with it.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 01:21 PM

"....is the nationalist narrative where the famine was used as a propaganda weapon"
No, it is borne out by all the irrefutable evidence (at least you have made no attempts to refute it) that has been put before you.
It is borne out by Trevelyan's (the man responsible for distributing famine relief) statement that the famine was God's punishment:

"In the 21st Century there are still people who believe the country to be under some sort of national judgement. This is the stuff of the 1840s. Charles Trevelyan, Assistant Secretary at the British Treasury during the years of the famine wrote:
The judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson, that calamity must not be too much mitigated. …The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people.
Trevelyan saw the famine as punishment for a failing in the national character. Protestant evangelist Edward Nangle saw the famine as divine punishment for much more specific actions:"
http://forthefainthearted.com/2013/02/12/irelands-punishment/

It is also in line with the fact that the Government stood by and allowed British landowners to evict 109,000 families.

"Eviction
Landlords were responsible for paying the rates of every tenant who paid less than £4 in yearly rent. Landlords whose land was crowded with poorer tenants were now faced with large bills. They began clearing the poor tenants from their small plots, and letting the land in larger plots for over £4 which then reduced their debts. In 1846, there had been some clearances, but the great mass of evictions came in 1847.[79] According to James S. Donnelly Jr, it is impossible to be sure how many people were evicted during the years of the famine and its immediate aftermath. It was only in 1849 that the police began to keep a count, and they recorded a total of almost 250,000 persons as officially evicted between 1849 and 1854.[80]
Donnelly considered this to be an underestimate, and if the figures were to include the number pressured into "voluntary" surrenders during the whole period (1846–1854) the figure would almost certainly exceed half a million persons.[81] While Helen Litton says there were also thousands of "voluntary" surrenders, she notes also that there was "precious little voluntary about them." In some cases, tenants were persuaded to accept a small sum of money to leave their homes, "cheated into believing the workhouse would take them in."[79]
West Clare was one of the worst areas for evictions, where landlords turned thousands of families out and demolished their derisory cabins. Captain Kennedy in April 1848 estimated that 1,000 houses, with an average of six people to each, had been levelled since November.[82] The Mahon family, Strokestown House alone in 1847 evicted 3,000 people, and according to John Gibney were still able to dine on lobster soup.[83]
After Clare, the worst area for evictions was County Mayo, accounting for 10% of all evictions between 1849 and 1854. The Earl of Lucan, who owned over 60,000 acres (240 km2) was among the worst evicting landlords. He was quoted as saying 'he would not breed paupers to pay priests'. Having turned out in the parish of Ballinrobe over 2,000 tenants alone, the cleared land he then used as grazing farms.[84] In 1848, the Marquis of Sligo owed £1,650 to Westport Union; he was also an evicting landlord, though he claimed to be selective, saying he was only getting rid of the idle and dishonest. Altogether, he cleared about 25% of his tenants.[85]
According to Litton, evictions might have taken place earlier but for fear of the secret societies. However they were now greatly weakened by the Famine. Revenge still occasionally took place, with seven landlords being shot, six fatally, during the autumn and winter of 1847. Ten other occupiers of land, though without tenants, were also murdered, she says.[86]
Lord Clarendon, alarmed that this might mean rebellion, asked for special powers. Lord John Russell was not sympathetic to this appeal. Lord Clarendon believed that the landlords themselves were mostly responsible for the tragedy in the first place, saying "It is quite true that landlords in England would not like to be shot like hares and partridges...but neither does any landlord in England turn out fifty persons at once and burn their houses over their heads, giving them no provision for the future." The Crime and Outrage Act was passed in December 1847 as a compromise and additional troops were sent to Ireland.[87]
Under the notorious Gregory clause, described by Donnelly as a "vicious amendment to the Irish poor law, named after William H. Gregory, M.P.[fn 6] and commonly known as the quarter-acre clause, provided that no tenant holding more than a quarter-acre of land would be eligible for public assistance either in or outside the workhouse. This clause had been a successful Tory amendment to the Whig poor-relief bill which became law in early June 1847, where its potential as an estate-clearing device was widely recognised in parliament, though not in advance.[88] At first the poor law commissioners and inspectors viewed the clause as a valuable instrument for a more cost-effective administration of public relief, but the drawbacks soon became apparent, even from an administrative perspective. They would soon view them as little more than murderous from a humanitarian perspective. According to Donnelly it became obvious that the quarter-acre clause was "indirectly a death-dealing instrument."[89]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)

It is also in line with the fact that the British Government placed market interests above the lives of the Irish people, allowing them to starve to death rather than affect the profits from the sale of grain.
You have been given all this information yet you still refuse to respond to it

You have called those who have produced all these facts "revisionists" despite the fact that the claims have been supported by indesputable proof, yet you refuse to respond to any of it - doesn't come any more revisionist than that.
You accuse me of being a fascist yet you continue on this thread to support actions that can only described as deliberate genocide - doesn't come any more fascistic than that.
"You would suppress the dominant views of historians."
This is not the "dominant" view of historians you have confessed to only dredging up two examples, yet you have been given dozens of examples to the contrary - all by British historians or by contemporary statements of people involved in the consequences of the famine.
Your reutation of supporting actions like these continues to grow with your single-handedly (you have no support here) dominating yet another thread in support to mass murderers involved in State terrorism.
I have no doubt whatever that you will continue to respond to these facts as you have in the past - which is both "revisionist" and "fascistic"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 02:26 PM

Thank you Jim.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 03:29 PM

"Thank you Jim."
You're welcome
I bit of recommended reading from Ireland's most respected expert on Irish history to be going on with - a Review of Tim Pat Coogan's 'The Famine Plot.
Jim Carroll

PROVING THE IRISH FAMINE WAS GENOCIDE BY THE BRITISH -- TIM PAT COOGAN MOVES FAMINE HISTORY ON TO A NEW PLANE
Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 at 07:11 AM
The most significant section of Tim Pat Coogan's new book on the Irish Famine is not his own writing, but his printing of the United Nations definition of genocide.
"The Famine Plot", published by Palgrave MacMillan, was released in America last week and Coogan should have been here to launch it but in a separate but equally confounding plot he was denied a visa to come here by the American Embassy in Dublin.
The conclusion from his book is unmistakable. Ireland's most prominent historian, who has previously created definitive portraits of both Michael Collins and Eamon De Valera, has now pointed the finger squarely at the British during the Famine and stated it was genocide.
It is a big charge, but Coogan is a big man, physically, intellectually, and in every sense and makes a very effective accusation. Coogan has painted a portrait of devastating neglect, abuse, and mismanagement that certainly fits the genocide concept.
I mean if we go back to that time, Ireland was the equivalent of Puerto Rico or Samoa, massive dependencies on the United States today.
If there were a massive food shortage in either of those two countries, we know the US would step up to the plate, literally.
Back in Famine time, the same potato crop disease occurred most heavily in Scotland, outside Ireland, yet there were relatively few casualties as the landowners and government ensured, for their own sakes as much as anything, that there was no mass death.
That was not the case in Ireland, where a very different mentality prevailed. The damned Irish were going to get what they deserved because of their attachment to Catholicism and Irish ways when they were refusing to toe the British line.
As Coogan painstakingly recounts, every possible effort by local organizations to feed the starving were thwarted and frustrated by a British government intent on teaching the Irish a lesson and forcing market forces on them.
Charles Trevelyan, the key figure in the British government, had foreshadowed the deadly policy in a letter to the "Morning Post", after a trip to Ireland, where he heartily agreed with the sentiment that there were at least a million or two people too many in the benighted land and that the eight million could not possibly survive there.
"Protestant and Catholic will freely fall and the land will be for the survivors."
Shortly after, he was in charge of a policy that brought that situation about.
One Trevelyan story and one quote suffice.
"British Coastguard Inspector-General, Sir James Dombrain, when he saw starving paupers, ordered his subordinates to give free food handouts. For his attempts to feed the starving, Dombrain was publicly rebuked by Trevelyan…"
The Trevelyan quote is
"The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people."
Tim Pat Coogan has done an enormous service with this book.
Read it and weep.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Peasant
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 06:19 PM

http://cbladey.com/patat/PotatCom.html

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 06:31 PM

it is borne out by all the irrefutable evidence

In your opinion Jim, but what is that worth.
What are your credentials?
The professional historians, who have dedicated their whole lives to the study of all the data and contemporary sources from the period, are quite clear that your old, outmoded nationalist propagandist stories are false.

If you need a peg on which to hang your irrational hatred of us, you will have to find something else.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 07:43 PM

Quite right Jim.

The fact is you didn't care. And the fact that you didn't care is more your problem than ours. We do. There are many things that we wouldn't wish on our enemies. This one tops the list.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mg
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 09:47 PM

one thing we need to do is to write down and get onto searchable genealogy sites anything we were told about our own ancestors..where from, where landed, names of anyone, occupations, any stories. that is what people want and need..and often there is no information..but stuff can be pieced together and people often traveled together...like my ancestors from kerry ended up in ne iowa after working on canals..doing their genealogy i found the whole town came from dingle it seems..while next town over came from county monaghan and was very well recorded..i found to research my own ancestors i had to research cahalans, murphys and fitzgeralds, as well as a few sheehans, kavanaughs, kellys...eventually i did brief family trees of most of the irish catholic town..my comaputer died and some might be lost but i will take it b ack to dingle when i go and they can add to their knowledge because what i found was that if you got a child who lived to 1925 the iowa census would give name of mother..so we can go back to ireland with name of father and mother and find out a lot more perhaps...people have emailed me pictures of my great grandmother, information about my ggm who may or may not b4e a bridget quinn...family trees...it is all connected.

anyway, that is what we all need to do. each year the stories that did make it out get fainter and fainter...my family knew nothing at all except incorrcet information about one ggm...had no idea at least two other ggparents were famine immigrants and possibly a fourth...

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 02:31 AM

Yes mg.
The famine was a pivotal point in the history of Ireland, but more importantly it was a human catastrophe on a scale that defies the imagination.
The human stories should be told and retold, and never lost.

Grubby politicking and hate mongering should be no part of it.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 02:41 AM

Jim, we have seen from the links provided by your supporters that the dominant view of professional historians is not one of blame.
That old discredited nationalist version was buried eighty years ago.

Your man Tim Pat Coogan is the exception that proves the rule.
Closely linked to IRA he fights for them with his books as his father fought with a gun.

He makes a lot of money from book sales, especially to Irish Americans, but no university ever has or ever would employ him.
A writer of books but not a professional historian.
Is he even qualified?
Have you ever heard of a professional historian being refused a visa by USA?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 03:10 AM

"What are your credentials?"
The same as anybody else's who have posted to this thread - an interest in the subject and an access to the information available on the web and elsewhere.
We have posted information by the volumeful - you have posted nothing, but have hidden yourself behind accusations of "republican reformism", "fascism" and that somehow, while you possess evidence that you are not willing to share, the rest of us are all wrong.
You have totally refused to to respond to the facts and figures presented before you Trevelyan, mass evictions, a British policy of placing economic interests above those of the Irish people who died and were forced to emigrate in their millions, an ethnic cleansing of Ireland, at best, by default, but quite likely informed by a racism that has flourished down the centuries( and in this particular case – from Punch to Bernard Manning) which you have attempted to show didn't and doesn't exist.
If your "dedicated professional historians" have evidence to show that Trevelyan and the British Government didn't say and act the way they did, or that landlords didn't evict 109,000 families, or that profits were not placed above the lives of millions of people - produce it.
WHO ARE THESE "DEDICATED HISTORIANS AND WHAT DID THEY HAVE TO SAY - OR ARE THEY, AS HAVE BEEN YOUR CLAIMS IN THE PAST, FIGMENTS OF YOUR OWN INVENTION
You have claimed that it is "fascistic to suppress the dominant views of the historians - you are the only one here to have attempted to "suppress" anything with your usual 'get-out-of-jail' "thread drift" card.
Unless you respond to what has been put up here with Proof by your (MYTHICAL) "dominant historians" it is you, by your own accusation, who is the fascist (but I think many of us who have debated with you before are fully aware of that fact anyway.)
We've shown you ours - now show us yours - so far you have produced nothing but smoke and mirrors!
Some more information for you to ignore below, from (no doubt "republican revisionist) British historian John Percival's 'The Great Famine' published by BBC Books in 1995 to accompany the (also no doubt republican revisionist) television series of the same name.
Sorry I can't produce a link - it's from a book on our shelves (pps 94-97)
Jim Carroll

"Incidents like this, of course, only confirmed the authorities in the belief that the poor were incorrigible liars and made them stick more firmly to the rules. In one case, in Parsonstown, now Birr, in County Offaly, the local doctor found a woman in her cabin boiling up a hedgerow weed, charlock, to feed her hungry children. The woman's husband was in prison for debt and she had no other food to give them. Parsonstown was not in an area which had been very badly hit and such a degree of deprivation was unusual. Appalled, the doctor took the children to the workhouse and insisted on their being admitted. The matter was brought up at the next meeting of the Board of Guardians and the Chairman castigated the doctor for acting improperly. The children's father was tenant of
nearly two acres, not less than a quarter. The fact that he was in prison for debt and the children were starving was immaterial. They should not have been admitted. Fortunately, the matter was not brought up again and it appears that the case was quietly forgotten, but in the poorer unions of the west it would have gone hard with those children.
The Gregory clause was not the worst aspect of the new legislation. Under the new act, in addition to liability for his own rates, the landlord also became responsible for the rates of all tenants with a holding worth less than four
pounds a year. This gave the landlord an immediate interest in getting rid of his smaller tenants and consolidating his land. 'Efficient' landlords would do so by evicting as many of their tenants as they could, or by arranging for them to emigrate, and paying their fares if necessary. Those who did this would keep their estatcs intact and might even make them profitable. Those who did not might have to pay the rates for hundreds of impoverished tenants and might well end up by losing everything they possessed. Again, the Government s intention was plain enough. It wanted to get shot of sub-divided estates and insolvent land-lords, who were regarded as negligent and inefficient.
In fact, although there were other arrogant bullies like Lord I.ucan, and many more who evaded their responsibilities by skulking abroad, Irish landlords were often in genuine difficulties. The mismanagement of previous owners accumulated from one generation to the next. Under the existing laws, a landlord could not sell his estate as long as parts of it were mortgaged or otherwise 'encumbered' with debt, even if the debt repayments, plus the rates due on the estate, exceeded the income from rent."

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 03:34 AM

"Closely linked to IRA he fights for them with his books as his father fought with a gun."
A typical distortion of the facts - again.
Coogan is a historian who does not take sides - as critical of one side as of the other. - perhaps you would like to provide evidence of your claim - no? - I thought not.
His books centre of modern Irish politics and his "controversial" views are controversial because he does not take sides.
That his father fought with a gun for Irish independence from British rule is a point in his favour - most Irish politicians and public figures can and often do make the same claim and are regarded as descendents of national heroes (as are those of the French Resistance and supporters of Nelson Mandela).
Part of Coogan's 'controversial' image is that he supported Collins and The Free State signing of the Treaty - which is in total opposition to the Republican stance.
Do you really not have an honest point   to make on the subject of Ireland which is not twisted by your anti-Irish Unionist agenda and Little Englander flag-wagging?
Jim Carroll

"Timothy "Tim" Patrick Coogan (born 22 April 1935) is an Irish historical writer, broadcaster and newspaper columnist. He served as editor of The Irish Press newspaper from 1968 to 1987. Today, he is best known for his popular and sometimes controversial books on aspects of modern Irish history, including The IRA, Ireland Since the Rising, On the Blanket, and biographies of Michael Collins and Éamon de Valera.
His biography of Éamon de Valera proved the most controversial, taking issue with the former Irish president's reputation and achievements, in favour of those of Collins, whom he regards as indispensable to the creation of the new State."

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 03:37 AM

Whoops - nearly fell into your practice of not providing a link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Pat_Coogan

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 03:44 AM

And just in case you attempt to accuse me of your practice of doctoring articles - the rest of Coogan's biography.
Jim Carroll

Biography[edit]

Tim Pat Coogan was born in Monkstown, County Dublin in 1935. He was the first of three children (Brian was born two years later, and Aisling was born four years later) born to Ned Coogan and his wife Beatrice. His father Ned (or Eamonn Ó Cuagain as he sometimes preferred to be known) was active in the Volunteers during the War of Independence and later went on to be the first Deputy Commissioner of the newly-established Garda Síochána, then a Fine Gael TD for the Kilkenny constituency. His mother was a Dublin socialite who was crowned Dublin's Civic Queen of Beauty in 1927. She also wrote for the Evening Herald and took part in various productions in the Abbey Theatre and Radio Éireann. Coogan spent many summer holidays in the town of Castlecomer in County Kilkenny, his father's home town.[1]
He is a former student of the Christian Brothers in Dun Laoghaire, Belvedere College and spent most of his secondary studies in Blackrock College in Dublin. In his memoir, published in 2008, he describes himself as an atheist.
In 2000 Ruth Dudley Edwards was awarded £25,000 damages and a public apology by the High Court in London against Coogan for factual errors in references to her in his book Wherever Green is Worn: the Story of the Irish Diaspora.[2]
When Taoiseach Enda Kenny caused confusion following a speech at Béal na Bláth by crediting Michael Collins with bringing Vladimir Lenin to Ireland, Coogan commented: "Those were the days when bishops were bishops and Lenin was a communist. How would that [Collins bringing Lenin to Ireland] have gone down with the churchyard collections?"[3]
In November 2012, the United States embassy in Dublin refused to grant Coogan a visa to visit the US. As a result a planned book tour for his latest book (The Famine Plot, England's role in Ireland's Greatest Tragedy) was cancelled. The decision was described as a major shock and blot against United States Ambassador to Ireland Dan Rooney. After representations to Hillary Clinton, Senator Schumer, reckoned to be the second most powerful member of the U.S. Senate and the chairman of the Congressional Committee on Homeland Security, Congressman Peter King, he received his visa.[4]

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 04:51 AM

Jim, "controversial" means not accepted by most.
His nationalist view we know, thanks to your supporters, has been rejected by actual historians for over eighty years now.
Some will just carry on hating regardless.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 06:19 AM

Controversial means surrounded by or likely to produce controversy - argument between opposing vies - nowhere does it mean not accepted by most.
"Have you ever heard of a professional historian being refused a visa by USA?"
Yes - I most cerainly have, and actors and singers - I have even known American historians, poets, intellectuals.... to be tried and jailed for expressing their views.
Perhaps you might settle this to give us one indication where Coogan has any connection to the IRA or where this has been claimed, unless of course it is ONCE AGAIN TOTALLY OF YOUR OWN INVENTION
And your "professional historians or their proof to the contrary????
Now's your chance to make your point
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 09:12 AM

It would be difficult to write authoritatively about the IRA and the blanket protest without good links.

I am not a historian and can add nothing more to this discussion.
We have seen that the dominant view among the real historians is that there is no blame and no cause for hatred.
Just sorrow.

You need excuses and justification for your prejudice, and if eighty years of consensus is not enough for you, you are destined to die still loathing us.
Good luck with it Jim.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 10:46 AM

"It would be difficult to write authoritatively about the IRA and the blanket protest without good links."
Nobody has mentioned the blanket protests - the subject was The Famine and your claim of contradictory evidence of what has been presented to you by "the dominant view of distinguished historians" which you have totally failed to produce - either the "evidence" or the "distinguished historians, which were obviously purely an invention on your part.
Neither have you been able to produce a single shred of evidence to back up your dishonest claim of Tim Pat Coogan's "Republican sympathies" or "IRA connections" both of which are obviously again purely your own inventions.
Why do you insist on dominating these threads if you are incapable of offering honest debate?
One more dishonest and spineless lie - "you are destined to die still loathing us"
I was born a Brit, I spent over half a century living in Britain, my parents and grandparents likewise - I have no hatred for the British people, only for some of their fould politicians and racist scum like yourself
You have never had anything to add or even offer to this discussion or any other one you seem to use as an attention-seeking platform for your own bigotry and hatred.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 11:11 AM

a single shred of evidence to back up your dishonest claim of Tim Pat Coogan's "Republican sympathies" or "IRA connections"

"It would be difficult to write authoritatively about the IRA and the blanket protest without good links."

"distinguished historians, which were obviously purely an invention on your part.
I invented none.
I gave brief extracts from three, and your supporters provided others.
Likewise the information that revisionism has been the dominant view of historians for over eighty years.

I have not dominated this thread Jim.
You have posted many times more stuff than I have, and now it is all yours.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 12:36 PM

I have no hatred for the British people

You know you do Jim.
You even called us "a deeply racist country."
Remember?
I would hate such a people.
Who wouldn't?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 12:41 PM

A brief study of the cottiers and the conacre system of land rental gives an additional insight in how the failure of a single crop had such catastrophic results in Ireland.
   Very briefly, cottiers rented very small plots from farmers who in turn rented from landowners. Rental to the farmers was usually paid by work, leaving little time for the cottiers to adequately tend their own small plots. Hence the overwhelming dependance on the potato. When the crop failed the entire rural economic system descended into a maelstrom.
Massive evictions took place, cabins torn down, and the landless hungry left initially to fend for themselves. The social conventions of the time held that a person;s station in life was determined by personal application (although it is obvious that inheritance of money and education effectively determined social class and made upward mobility almost impossible )A reluctance to introduce viable measures to alleviate starvation was due to the inabilty of the government of the day to accept responsibility and for fear of creating longterm dependancy. When the scale of the problem was finally realised, the measures adopted for the most part were totally inadequate and too late.
    To state it was a deliberate policy of genocide is simply not supported by the facts. It was a culmination of population growth,the creation of a huge landless class of labourers, rapacious landlords, potato blight,and finally an administration slow to recognise the true scale of the problem and woefully inadaquate in it's response.
The true scale of the catastrophe makes it hardly surprising that views have become polarised especially in the light of Independance the following century.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 03:16 PM

"You know you do Jim."
You are a liar Keith - I have never expressed any self-hatred in any shape or form (born in Liverpool as were my parents and grandparents)
I would ask you to provide proof of my hatred for English people (of which I am one) but I know damn well that there is as much chance of your responding as there is of your providing proof of your brain-dead claims of "distinguished historians" or your lying distortions about Tim Pat Coogan.
Having said that. please feel free to prove me wrong.
"You even called US "a deeply racist country."
No - I said that in my experience Britain was a deeply racist country and provided researched evidence to show that was the case - this was when you were describing "all male Pakistanis as being culturally implanted" which makes them paedophiles, you may remember, so we have no need to go any further than you to see exactly what Britain is able to produce in the form of racists.
I'm sure you noticed my emphasising the "US" there.
You wrote "you are destined to die still loathing us."   
I have pointed out on numerous occasions that I was born in Britain and my family goes back as living in Britain for four or five generations (not sure which).
You have persistently referred me as being a foreigner ("you and us") and have even on some occasions referred to me as being an "outsider".
I trust that every Anglo-Irishman or woman reading this and in a similar position as myself will note that as far as people like you are concerned, no matter how many centuries we have been and will continue to be living and bringing up our families in Britain, to racist scum like you we will always be "you and us" as far as you are concerned.
Guest:
"To state it was a deliberate policy of genocide is simply not supported by the facts."
Then you must explain the contempt shown by the authorities towards the million who starved to death and the many more who were forced to emigrate.
I would suggest you order your copy of Coogan's "'The Famine Plot' if you dounbt this;(The Book Depository has it at a reduced price, post free).
Coogan isn't the first to describe the Famine as "Ireland's Holocaust" or to use the term '"ethnic cleansing"
I haven't got my copy yet but I read a couple of chapters last week in Dublin - horrifyingly well-documented stuff!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 03:16 PM

"You know you do Jim."
You are a liar Keith - I have never expressed any self-hatred in any shape or form (born in Liverpool as were my parents and grandparents)
I would ask you to provide proof of my hatred for English people (of which I am one) but I know damn well that there is as much chance of your responding as there is of your providing proof of your brain-dead claims of "distinguished historians" or your lying distortions about Tim Pat Coogan.
Having said that. please feel free to prove me wrong.
"You even called US "a deeply racist country."
No - I said that in my experience Britain was a deeply racist country and provided researched evidence to show that was the case - this was when you were describing "all male Pakistanis as being culturally implanted" which makes them paedophiles, you may remember, so we have no need to go any further than you to see exactly what Britain is able to produce in the form of racists.
I'm sure you noticed my emphasising the "US" there.
You wrote "you are destined to die still loathing us."   
I have pointed out on numerous occasions that I was born in Britain and my family goes back as living in Britain for four or five generations (not sure which).
You have persistently referred me as being a foreigner ("you and us") and have even on some occasions referred to me as being an "outsider".
I trust that every Anglo-Irishman or woman reading this and in a similar position as myself will note that as far as people like you are concerned, no matter how many centuries we have been and will continue to be living and bringing up our families in Britain, to racist scum like you we will always be "you and us" as far as you are concerned.
Guest:
"To state it was a deliberate policy of genocide is simply not supported by the facts."
Then you must explain the contempt shown by the authorities towards the million who starved to death and the many more who were forced to emigrate.
I would suggest you order your copy of Coogan's "'The Famine Plot' if you dounbt this;(The Book Depository has it at a reduced price, post free).
Coogan isn't the first to describe the Famine as "Ireland's Holocaust" or to use the term '"ethnic cleansing"
I haven't got my copy yet but I read a couple of chapters last week in Dublin - horrifyingly well-documented stuff!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 04:35 PM

Action against a social class is not classified as genocide, no matter how horrific the result.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 04:43 PM

Keith, Jim doesn't hate anybody. I would think you'd know that by now. Just calls them as he sees them.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 04:53 PM

GUEST, I'm thinking about what you just said. Not only is action against a social class not considered genocide, the wounds are much deeper. Better my neighbor should abuse me, not someone in my own family.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 05:12 PM

"Then why did you abandon her
The reason to me tell."

Jim, I just do not lie, and neither am I racist.
On this forum, you never mention Britain or England but to curse them.
Calling us "a deeply racist country" is a clearly hateful statement, and typical of your sentiments.
You choose to deny it.
Fine.

I am done with this.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 07:31 PM

"Jim, I just do not lie, and neither am I racist."
Yes you do and yes you are
Ask any Anglo Irish man or woman how he/she feels about being referred to as "you and us".
Ask any male Pakistani how he feels about being told his "cultural implant" which he has to "resist" makes him prone to "underage sex".
Your total failure to either qualify or withdraw both your pseudo historical arguments and your totally unwarranted attacks on a respected historian in order to make your case makes you openly dishonest.
You are without a doubt one of the most unpleasantly dishonest individuals I have ever encountered and your inability to either justify or withdraw your claims in order not to lose face makes you a sad - sad little man.
"Calling US "a deeply racist country...."
And yet another "you and us" example of your racism.
Now we really are done here - you reall have overdosed on penalty points for future reference here!
"Keith, Jim doesn't hate anybody."
See above - I don't know who you are mystery guest, but it wouldn't be the first time Keith has fake posted support for himself - he was reprimanded by them upstairs last time.
"Not only is action against a social class not considered genocide"
Actions that allow one million people of one nation to die of starvation and fever, and drive three timesd that number away from their country is well within the boundaries of both ethnic cleasing" and "genocide" in anybody's dictionary if that is what happened.
I will wait till I read Coogan's arguments in fill before I make up my mind.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 01:48 AM

My understanding of the UN definition of genocide specifically excludes actions against a social class/-rightly or wrongly,

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 02:57 AM

A national people IS NOT A SOCIAL CLASS and even if you are right, then it bloody well should include anybody on that scale or there should be an equivalent word for it - you seem to have fallen back on semantics do defend all this shit.
Anyway - England awaits; I have the funeral of a loved one to attend (one of Keith's "YOU").
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 04:17 AM

"us" is not a racist term, and nor is anything else I have ever said.
"Racist" is just what you call me whenever you are losing an argument.
There is no "researched evidence" that "Britain is a deeply racist country" and it is not.

Cougan has an anti-British agenda, and he uses the famine to stir up hatred.
Historians are clear that there is no-one to blame for the famine.

I dared to say that the nationalist version is not universally accepted, and your reaction has been near hysterical.
Pages and pages of multicoloured text and wild accusations.
What does that say about you Jim?
Rational?
Fair?
Unbiased/
Unprejudiced?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 05:21 AM

Leaving all that aside, I am sorry for your loss.
keith.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 07:47 AM

Speaking of family, everybody needs to see this:

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3624840?utm_hp_ref=tw

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 11:24 AM

Stop calling one another liar. There are no liars around here. Just people who don't share the same point of view from time to time.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 12:12 PM

Stop calling one another liar

Jim alone has thrown in "liar" with all his other wild accusations.
I agree with you that it is not helpful.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 12:52 AM

You're right Keith. According to Jim you are a liar and a racist. It's just that when Jim gets challenged on a topic that is very important to him and he's done his research, he gets upset. I believe as well that the British had a profound contempt for the Irish and that the famine qualifies as genocide. That doesn't mean I would hold any Brit personally responsible or that I want to have a hate fest. On the contrary, truth is essential to the healing process. It leads to reconciliation. A British person recently said to me that he feels genuinely bad about what the Celts went through at the hands of the British. A few kind words like that can go a long way.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 02:47 AM

SJL is right in that people should be able to have different opinions without insulting each other. Anyway surely there is a middle ground here? Keith may be going too far by claiming 'no-one was to blame' but his assertion that it was not a genocide (surely a genocide would need to be a deliberate act where the intent was to kill as many people as possible) is not unsupported by some Irish historians. Some popular opinion in Ireland and among Irish Americans may feel it was so but that in itself doesn't make it so. Just because one opinion is shouted the loudest it doesn't make it more valid.

In his Modern Ireland 1600-1972 R.F.Foster (who is a highly qualified Irish historian) confirms that the gvt purchased food for distribution, removed tarrifs and organised public works as early as 1845-86 but goes on to explain that they underestimated the sheer scale of what was happening. Their response was based on previous famines which simply were not of the same scale. He defends the gvt not banning the export of grain on the basis that they did not at that time have the power to do so and anwyay by 1847 he claims Ireland was importing 5 times as much as it was exporting. He defends the importation of Indian meal as being well known to the Irish already (despite claims to the contrary) and again it having been resorted to in previous famines. That does not mean he lays no blame at anyone's door. He points out that the clinging to laissez faire economics and the 'obsession' with the idea that people shouldn't get something for nothing severely hindered the relief. Public works were not abandoned in favour of direct relief until 1847. Likewise he lays blame within Ireland itself and not just at Westminster. He points out that in Scotland the landlords in general tried to feed their tenants which did not happen to the same extent in Ireland. Likewsie eventually the gvt recognised that certain areas were in dire need of assistance and from early on meal was sold directly to the people in the south-west and west however many starved through bureaucracy. A special rate-in-aid was to be levied from 1849 in areas less affected to help areas badly affected. This was violently opposed in Eastern Ulster. Foster writes "again and again the variation is striking; and inability to recognize the severity of the visitation was not confined to the Dublin administrative classes"

So it seems there is a range of opinion from Keith's "no one was to blame" to the middle ground of Foster's "gvt mistakes, incompetence and sheer rigid sticking to idealogy exacerbated the problem" through to the more extreme "they did it deliberately".

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 03:01 AM

"A British person recently said to me that he feels genuinely bad about what the Celts went through at the hands of the British"

I'm not quite sure who he would mean by "British" and who he would mean by "Celts". Surely many Celts are British? There is a tendancy amongst some to play the victim and vehemently blame the English for everything. I had one American Scot on soc.culture.scottish who blamed the English for the Massacre of Culloden and he got quite upset and abusive when I pointed out that they weren't really involved much. The plot was hatched and carried out by reprsentatives of the pre-union Scottish government. His come back was that King William had signed the papers and was King of England hence the English were to blame. It was an absurd claim. William was Dutch and was also King of Scotland and King of Ireland. Hence it would make as much sense to blame the Irish. The papers were put to him by the Scottish gvt and he signed as monarch of Scotland. There is just not much way to made in debating with people with such ingrained illogical opinions though!

Besides why he was getting so wound up about it perplexed me. It was centuries ago and both sides (ie within scotland) were as bad as each other anyway.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 03:02 AM

My opinion is worthless, and I always admitted being no expert.
I think we should heed the real historians?
That is my whole case.

E.g. R F Foster.
They tried but failed, guilty only of not being up to the task.
Like New Orleans.
Like the Dustbowl.
etc.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 09:32 AM

Oh dear.

One of our local WWII heroes just passed away and a friend of mine who had spent time with Frank, corresponded with him and reported on his war experiences, specifically Frank's involvement in liberating Dachau, wrote this:

"Imagination cannot conjure the awful scenes Frank Brechue witnessed at one of history's blackest spots. "I'm not an overly religious man" he wrote, but "Lord we ask you- hear our prayer." All were brought to their knees as they wandered Dachau."

So the question I would ask is, if the Germans had won the war, do you think the real truth about what happened there would have ever gotten out? I think not. The Germans were compelled to admit the truth because they lost. If you don't lose, you don't have to admit anything.

In regard to the genocide perpetrated by the Soviet government, it was actually a Welsh journalist named Gareth Jones who first broke that story. He went there and witnessed it with his own eyes and reported truthfully what he saw. He later turned up dead under suspicious circumstances at the young age of 30.

Listening to you guys, I begin to wonder if this British person I mentioned was just catering to my "perception" of things. Maybe he doesn't really believe it himself. Wouldn't surprise me. In any case, I'm inclined to accept Jim Carroll's version of events. Just because he's an ornery son of a bitch, doesn't mean he doesn't know his shit. And as long as you keep on whitewashing the truth, I'm sure you'll never hear the multi-colored end of it.

And it's not over here in the US either. It seems to me that the majority of US citizens are of the opinion that Native Americans should be stripped of the last vestiges of their rights under treaty. Yesterday it was fur, today it's tobacco and casinos. They won't stop until they have broken every treaty they ever made and taken every last thing from them. They use the word "equality" to make their point that Native Americans should hold no economic advantage over them. It's so sad too because most of them are so poor already. Have you ever seen a census report? They are such a tiny minority now, they barely exist. An entire race of people very nearly wiped out. Clearance.

http://www.writingriffs.com/2012/11/logans-lamen/

Chief Logan's tomb is inscribed with those words, in Fort Hill Cemetery, practically in my backyard, and not far from William Seward's. The life of Chief Logan, a very sad tale indeed.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 09:59 AM

I'm inclined to accept Jim Carroll's version of events. Just because he's an ornery son of a bitch, doesn't mean he doesn't know his shit.
And all the actual, professional historians are wrong and have been for eighty plus years.

You believe what you believe because of your prejudice.
The historical truth must not get in the way.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 01:01 PM

"doesn't mean he doesn't know his shit. And as long as you keep on whitewashing the truth, I'm sure you'll never hear the multi-colored end of it"

I agree you must look at the multi-coloured end of it. That means don't just white wash events or in fact don't just blacken events. Of the historians I have quoted one was born of an Irish family in Scotland whilst the other was born to an Irish family in Dublin and was brought up and educated there. Both studied and are qualified in both Irish and British history to the highest level! Presumably they know their shit too! Conoe Cruise O'Brien was just one of those to critiqe Foster's work. "A magnificent book. It supercedes all other accounts of modern Irish history".

If it is going to be dismissed as whitewashing then you really have to come up with some argument other than existing ingrained feeling and the idea that some bloke on the net probably knows his shit!

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 05:47 AM

Interesting article on the Famine, with many contemporary quotes.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 06:39 AM

Sample paragraph from that piece, by the way:

In January 1847, the British government smashed Circular #38, which the Irish Board of Public Works had issued, allowing "family task work" under a sensible emergency proposal of some large farmers. It would have paid farm families wages to work their own land, and more wages for also working on drainage projects. ``It is quite impossible," wrote Trevelyan, ``for my lords to give their sanction to parties being paid by public funds for the cultivation of their own land." That same month, Colonel Routh reported on Ireland's poorest county, Skibereen, that 50,000 pounds rent had been paid in 1846; there were only 12 landowners, all British lords and knights. The government also defeated a proposal of Lord George Bentinck in Parliament, for a railroad building act in Ireland funded by the British Treasury.

==

(Skibbereen isn't a county, of course, it's a town - very prosperous and chichi during the Celtic Tiger, but completely emptied of population during the Famine; a catch-cry of the succeeding revolutionary years was "Remember Skibbereen!"

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 07:55 AM

Extracts from Wiki on Schiller Institute.


In March 2009, the Danish branch of the institute distributed flyers at a climate change conference in Copenhagen which asserted that 'British Climate lies will lead to Genocide', stating that the Bush administration had been a puppet of the British Empire, that "solar activity, not human activity, is the main factor in the Earth's changing climate," and that "massive investment in windmills and solar panels" to combat climate change would create genocide by raising the price of food.

In 1988, the institute initiated a campaign to establish "philosophical pitch" or "scientific pitch" as the classical music concert pitch standard.[21] This tuning system is based on middle C set at 256 Hz, making concert A 430.539 Hz rather than the most commonly used 440 Hz. The Schiller Institute calls this system "Verdi tuning" because it was Italian composer Giuseppe Verdi who first sought to stop the increase in pitch to which orchestras are tuned.[22] However, Verdi used the French standard 435 Hz in writing his Requiem in 1874; later he indicated that 432 Hz was slightly more optimal.[23] It is this 432 Hz standard that the Schiller Institute advocates. French acoustic physicist Joseph Sauveur first researched then proposed the philosophical pitch standard in 1713, more than a century before Verdi began leading orchestras. Sauveur was strongly resisted by the musicians he was working with, and the proposed standard was not adopted.[24]

Institute followers are reported by Tim Page of Newsday to have stood outside concert halls with petitions to ban the music of Vivaldi and even to have disrupted a concert conducted by Leonard Slatkin in order to pass out pamphlets titled "Leonard Slatkin Serves Satan."
Cult allegations[edit]
The institute is alleged by the (London) Metropolitan Police and critics to be a cult.[34][35][36][37][38] According to the Berliner Zeitung, the LaRouche movement in Germany, operating as the Schiller Institute, LaRouche Youth Movement, Europäische Arbeiterpartei and Bürgerrechtsbewegung Solidarität (BüSo), has around 300 followers, and "next to Scientology, is the cult soliciting most aggressively in German streets at this time."[36]
The BBC's Newsnight has said the institute places members under "psychological duress," during "so-called psycho sessions."[32] Aglaja Beyes Corleis, a member of the Schiller Institute for 16 years, who left in the early 90s and wrote a book about the Institute,[39] told the BBC:
When I speak with family members how I was then at that time, [they] tell me 'You were like from a different planet.' ... People tend to be drawn into it who did not want to be drawn into it, who did not want to join a cult or a sect or something like that ... I was freaked out and I experienced that other people freaked out. I saw other people who, members who, got out of their mind ... Sometimes Jewish members were put under special pressure. For instance, at a public meeting, the person was picked out and publicly attacked – 'your mother visited Israel'."[32]
Death of Jeremiah Duggan[edit]
Main article: Jeremiah Duggan
On November 6, 2003, a British inquest heard allegations that the Schiller Institute is a "political cult with sinister and dangerous connections,"[37][38] which may have used controversial recruitment techniques on Jeremiah Duggan, a 22-year-old British-Jewish student who died in March 2003 in disputed circumstances.[40]

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 09:28 AM

After 4 days frantic Googling, you found nothing to support the nationalist view except something by someone famous only for doing time for fraud in Virginia, and published by his wacko cult.

What is wrong with the actual Irish historians who have devoted their lives to researching Irish history in Irish universities and lecturing to Irish history students?

Their findings do not support your prejudice.
Historical truth has no value to a prejudiced bigot.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 11:41 AM

"And all the actual, professional historians are wrong and have been for eighty plus years."
You have yet to produce one single "professional historian" or a quote from one to back up your claims - not one.
"Jim alone has thrown in "liar" with all his other wild accusations."
Claiming to have the backing of "professional historians" and then failing to produce either the name of one or a quote from one is to LIE.
To claim that no evidence here apart from your own is to lie.
Accusing a respected "professional historian" of being a supporter of the IRA can, at a stretch, be called a mistake.
Refusing to either substantiate that claim or respond to requests that you should do so is to lie.
To refuse to provide proof or withdraw that accusation is to lie.
To lie in public is to be a very stupid liar.
"the nationalist view"
The earlier historians, British and Irish, tended to describe the famine without apportioning blame.
The first British historian to firmly place the blame on the Government policy of placing commercial interests above the lives of the population, was Robert Kee in his book, 'Ireland, a History' which accompanied his television series of the same name broadcast during the 1970s 'Troubles'.
The most comprehensive coverage of British policy during the famine was from The Great Famine, Ireland's potato famine 1845 -51 by British documentary producer and historian John Percival, published on the 150th anniversary.
To claim that nobody has produced evidence to contradict your claims is a lie - if you wish to contradict this I am happy to re-post every single link, along with quotes - all of which you have so far, totally ignored.
To continue to claim the existence of 'professional historians' who absolve Britain from their behavior without being prepared to name those historians is to lie.
Please name your "actual Irish historians" and their quotes - with links please - to fail to do so is to lie.
Yours in anticipation
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Big Mick
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 02:14 PM

Amen, Jim.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 03:47 PM

on 15th July 10.04 I gave an extract from Dr. Stephen Davies. His piece gave these sources,
•David George Boyce and Alan O'Day, eds., The Making of Modern Irish History: Revisionism and the Revisionist Controversy (London: Routledge, 1996). See also Joel Mokyr, Why Ireland Starved: A Quantitative and Analytical History of the Irish Economy, 1800–1850 (London: Unwin Hyman, 1983).
• Cecil Woodham-Smith, The Great Hunger: Ireland 1845–1849 (New York: Harper Row, 1962).
• William D. Rubinstein, Britain's Century: A Political and Social History 1815–1905 (London: Arnold, 1998), p. 90.
• S. J Connolly, ed., The Oxford Companion to Irish History (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1998), p. 438.


Read more: http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/lessons-of-history-the-great-irish-famine#ixzz2aH9yK9o7

On 15 Jul 13 - 04:45 PM I quoted Robert Nielson.

On 16 Jul 13 - 06:17 AM

The revisionist response & interpretation: from the foreword to The Great Famine
R. Dudley Edwards & T. Desmond Williams (eds.), The Great Famine: Studies in Irish History 1845-52, 1956

On 17th July Guest grumpy linked to Christine Keneally, whose piece supported the revisionist view.

On 19th july JTT linked to "a short piece" also revisionist.

All proper historians.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 06:51 PM

Keith A, if it's me you're talking to about four days of frantic Googling, nope. I'd forgotten about this thread, indeed about Mudcat, then came across the interesting (because of its many contemporary quotes) article from the Schiller Institute.

If those contemporary voices can't reach your ears, mine certainly won't. Thank you for your time and courteous attention.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 03:20 AM

"All proper historians."
Your "historians" boil down to a couple (two) statements from one obscure English economist - not historian (Dr Stephen Davies) who disputes without proof that British policy was not the cause of the outcome of the famine (without accompanying proof) and William D. Rubinstein, a historian at Aberyswyth whose subjects range from Shakespeare's authorship, the assassination of Kennedy, Jack the Ripper and Jewish History - neither are in any way experts in Irish history, "prominent" or otherwise.
Both of their conclusions fly in the face of the findings of most modern historians on the question of who was to blame.
"I quoted Robert Nielson"
Nielsen's quote was a blog from a discussion on Tim Pat Coogan's 'Famine Plot' which is contradicted by other contributors.
You have attempted to divide opinions on the Famine between "Revisionists" who blame the British and whose history is "80 years out-of-date" and the majority of modern historians who have claimed the old version to be false. This is a total distortion of the situation, and the only way you have been able to make this claim is by deliberately ignoring the facts, both contemporary to the famine (including Trevelyan's "God's punishment" statement) and modern conclusions.
You have deliberately slandered one of Ireland's foremost experts on modern Irish history and you now refuse to even refer to that fact, let alone dignify it with proof.
This is agenda-driven revisionism at its worst.
Since the 70s there has been a revival of interest in the famine - Robert Kee's damning chapter being one of the first - you refuse even to comment on that one (from a British historian).
The 150th anniversary produced a major revisit to the events with more than a dozen works on the subject - including an apology from the Prime Minister for the Britain's culpability for the outcome (something else you have chosen not to comment on).
I must admit, I have always baulked at the descriptions of "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" until I read bits of Coogan's 'Famine Plot' - I understand that a prominent theme in the book is an examination of the United Nations definition of those terms and it's relevance to the Irish events - I look forward with interest to receiving my copy next week.
Can we now have examples of your "prominent historians", a qualification of your Coogan smear, and some comment on the evictions, the laissez-faire policy that brought about so many deaths, and maybe even a word on how somebody who, by his own admission, believed the famine was "God's punishment on evildoers" could possibly have been put in charge of distributing famine relief, by a Government who had Ireland's welfare at heart!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 04:24 AM

You have attempted to divide opinions on the Famine between "Revisionists" who blame the British and whose history is "80 years out-of-date" and the majority of modern historians who have claimed the old version to be false.
Not true Jim.
I just thought that both views should be aired in any reasonable discussion.
Do you disagree?
So I gave just 3 short quotes.
One of my links was to a balanced consideration of both views.
What do you object to?

Grumpy linked to a piece by Christine Keneally, who wrote
"Conclusion
Revisionism has polarised historical debate in Ireland and has stifled the more theoretical and philosophical approach to history which has developed elsewhere. Revisionism has dominated Irish historiography since the 1930s, and more intensely since the 1960s."
that directly contradicts your statement, "Both of their conclusions fly in the face of the findings of most modern historians on the question of who was to blame."

No. That is the finding of most modern historians.
Coogan and the cult fraudster are not historians.

Kealing knows more than either of us.
You reject her conclusion.
OK.
I have nothing to add, and am no expert.
The real experts do not support you.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 06:30 AM

"I just thought that both views should be aired in any reasonable discussion."
No you didn't - you've argued that the facts you disagree with are "republican", outdated by 80 years and totally rejected by the majority of modern historians - no room for reasonable discussion there - nothing to disagree with - these are definitive statements on your part.
You have even gone to the extent of lying about the political sympathies of one historian -
You don't do, nor have ever done "reasonable discussion"
"So I gave just 3 short quotes."
The majority of "prominent historians" I take it, even though oner of them is an economist (and another of your "names" is an archeologist)
"Coogan and the cult fraudster are not historians."
Yes he is - he is regarded as the leading expert on modern Irish history - WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE HE IS A FRAUDSTER - HE WAS ONLY AN IRA SUPPORTER LAST TIME?
"No. That is the finding of most modern historians."
Who are these "modern historians" and what do they say?
"I have nothing to add, and am no expert."
No you certainly are not - it is you who is the "fraudster".
I awaiot your proof to any single statement you have made - not only have you nothing to add, you havce said nothing at all so far.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 06:35 AM

"Kealing knows more than either of us."
She certainly knows how to keep her head down her name appears on no list of historians I can lay hands on, nor does she Google
Perhaps you will have better luck than I have
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 06:53 AM

Keith, what fact in that article are you disputing? Are the quotes attributed to Trevelyn and others incorrect? Look, I'm not holding you directly responsible. Collective guilt only goes so far. I'm a white American and I never enslaved anybody. But I have a responsibility to be aware of what happened and to make sure that I don't have any part of a way of thinking that made slavery possible.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 07:26 AM

Jim, When I joined this thread, only the nationalist version had been given and at some length.
Any fair minded person would want both versions put.
(Was that an amen Mick?)

I did give just 3 short quotes, one from a page giving both versions.

It was Grumpy who provided the link to Kearney.
You were so pleased and impressed you called him your "bro'"

I just quoted that one passage that said revisionism had been dominant for eighty years.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 07:35 AM

Plenty of google hits if you get the spelling right Jim!

Irish America.
Christine Kinealy

Professor Christine Kinealy is a highly regarded writer and lecturer. In 1984, she earned her Ph.D. from Trinity College, Dublin, writing on the introduction of the Poor Law in Ireland. Kinealy has written extensively about the Great Hunger and its impact, most notably in her book This Great Calamity: The Irish Famine 1845-52, and has spoken to both the US Congress and British Parliament on the Famine. In addition to the Great Hunger, her topics include nineteenth century Ireland, the revolutions of 1848, Daniel O'Connell, and Irish-American nationalism and memory and commemoration in Irish history. Since September 2007, Kinealy has been a tenured professor at Drew University's Caspersen Graduate School in Madison, NJ. She has written over 16 books on Irish and Irish-American history and numerous scholarly articles.

Kinealy was born and raised in Liverpool by her father from Co. Tipperary and her mother, whose family was from Co. Mayo. She has two children: Siobhán, who was born in Dublin, and Ciarán, who was born in Belfast.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 08:33 AM

Christine Kinealy in the same piece published in History Ireland.

"Popular books on the Famine, notably those by Cecil Woodham-Smith and Robert Kee, which have placed suffering at the heart of the Famine, have been derided or dismissed by many within the academic establishment, although not, it has to be said, by the general reading public. The Great Hunger by Woodham Smith has sold almost sixty thousand hard back copies, making it the best-selling Irish history book of all time. Irish academics, with the honourable exception of Cormac Ó Gráda, have been less enthusiastic. Roy Foster, an influential revisionist, in an article optimistically entitled 'We are all revisionists now', pejoratively described Woodham Smith as 'a zealous convert', whilst, in 1964, a question in an undergraduate history examination paper in University College Dublin stated 'The Great Hunger is a great novel. Discuss'."

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 08:48 AM

"Jim, When I joined this thread, only the nationalist version had been given and at some length."
No - you joined to absolve Britain from blame - you have been shown how you have framed your arguments, you have not attempted to "debate" this issue, but have dismissed the argument of others out of hand as "republican" and 80 years "out-of-date"
You have left no room whatever for argument
You have even resorted to lying about historians who put a contrary view, and you have no intention whatever of justifying or withdrawing those lies.
You have failed to, and will not in future produced one single "qualified historian" of the "majority" you claim to exist, and you have refused to respond to documented facts (often by the people concerned at the time) which prove beyond doubt that the outcome of the famine was entirely due to wilful mismanagement inspired by a contempt for the Irish beyond their being able to fulfil their role as "England's breadbasket".
Your argument, what there is of it, is both shambolic and grossly dishonest - the worst example of manipulating history to suit a personal agenda I have ever come across.
"Professor Christine Kinealy is a highly regarded writer and lecturer"
Not a historian then, so we can't add her to your elusive-enough to be non-existent list of "qualified historians"?
I don't suppose you could supply us with a link to her so we can decide if she "knows more than either of us" - or is that something else you made up on the spot.
Now about Tim Pat Coogan.... or is that something else to refer back to in future arguments?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 09:06 AM

Don't bother with that link Keith - I found her and she seems to have taken a line that you have described as 80 years out-of-date - a republican revisionist maybe.

"In many ways the Famine represented not so much a natural disaster, but, as Dr. Kinealy argues, a failure of imagination and a failure of compassion. It left a legacy of bitterness and despair. One hundred and fifty years later, it is clear that these wounds are ones which have healed. The fact that we can have an occasion such as this surely demonstrates that there is a maturity and openness in relations between Britain and Ireland. The process of recalling the detail of what happened is not to reopen old wounds. Far from it. It is to help us better to understand and respond to the world of today. As such I believe it is welcome, it is healthy and it gives us great hope for the future."

Kineally Quote:
"Moreover, much of this death from the Famine need not have taken place. The Irish Famine was not just caused by food shortages, it was also due to political and economic choices. As a consequence, ideology triumphed over humanity.
In the face of food shortages, relief provided by the government was inadequate. Imports of food were too small to meet the scale of the problem. At the same time, large amounts of food continued to be exported from Ireland. In 1847 – 'Black '47' – 4,000 ships left Ireland, each carrying large cargoes of food to Britain."
http://www.ballinagree.freeservers.com/knealy.html

"Plenty of google hits if you get the spelling right Jim!"
cut-t-'n-pasted your spelling of the name Keith
"Kealing knows more than either of us." (28 Jul 13 - 04:24 AM)
Not really your day, is it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 09:25 AM

No - you joined to absolve Britain from blame

Not true.
I said I knew nothing but supplied 3 short quotes providing a glimpse of the alternative view.
That should be welcomed by any fair minded person.

She is a historian, a doctorate in History from Trinity College Dublin and author of "numerous scholarly articles" beside her 16 books on Irish history.
We have seen she is published in "History Ireland."
Cougan never has been and never will.

You are not well placed to dismiss her view of contemporary Irish historians.
She is one.
You are not, and neither is Cougan.
Dominantly revisionist since 1930 she stated.
She should know.

Woodham Smith's book was derided as "a novel" by the historians of University College Dublin.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 10:46 AM

"You are not well placed to dismiss her view of contemporary Irish historians."
I most certainly do not "dismiss her view" - I assume we cross-posted and you are not going to ignore what she had to say as you have ignored everything else that does not suit.
All a little academic anyway as Christine Kinealy (correct spelling - so far you've given us three versions Kinealy, Kineally and Kearney, while having the temerity to take me up on the spelling of her name) is one of those who contradict your claims - I don't suppose you would like to comment on what she has to say would you - I thought not!
"You are not, and neither is Cougan."
I assume you mean 'Coogan' - you really are having a bad hair day!
Coogan is neither an IRA supporter or a fraudster as you have described him.
His status in Ireland is unquestioned and the research carried out for his numerous works (see below) makes him every bit a historian as his fellow "revisionist" Christine Kineally.
Your mantra-like repetition of "majorities" and "respected historians" is totally meaningless while you refuse to produce names and quotes.
" have been derided or dismissed by many within the academic establishment,"
I would be extremely grateful if you could produce some evidence of your claims on Woodham Smith, Kee, Coogan - and anybody else who doesn't share your quaint (and as I said, shambolic) view of history.
Again, yours in anticipation
Jim Carroll

Ireland Since the Rising (1966)
The I.R.A. (1970) - revised 1995, 2002
The Irish: a personal view (1975)
On the Blanket: the H Block story (1980)
Ireland and the Arts (1986)
Disillusioned Decades: Ireland 1966-87 (1987)
Michael Collins: a biography (1990) - published in the U.S. as 'The Man Who Made Ireland'
Eamon De Valera: Long Fellow, Long Shadow (1993) - published in the U.S. as 'The Man Who Was Ireland'
The Troubles: Ireland's ordeal and the Search for Peace (1995)
The Irish Civil War - with George Morrison (1998)
Wherever Green is Worn: the Story of the Irish Diaspora (2000)
1916: the Easter Rising (2001)
Ireland in the Twentieth Century (2003)
A Memoir (2008)
The Famine Plot: England's Role in Ireland's Greatest Tragedy (2012)

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mayomick
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 10:53 AM

"I have often said, and written, it is Famine which must consume [the Irish]; our swords and other endeavours work not that speedy effect which is expected for their overthrow."
- English Viceroy Arthur Chichester writing to Elizabeth I's chief advisor, Nov. 1601

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mayomick
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 11:14 AM

"All wisdom advises us to keep this [Irish] kingdom as much subordinate and dependent on England as possible; and, holding them from manufacture of wool (which unless otherwise directed, I shall by all means discourage), and then enforcing them to fetch their cloth from England, how can they depart from us without nakedness and beggary?"
- Lord Stafford, Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, in a letter to King Charles I, 1634
But when the Irish quote such historical sources , up go the imperial eyebrows . "There they go again the Irish and their obsession with history. What's the matter with them -why can't they just be nice and try to get on with one another over there?"

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mayomick
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 11:19 AM

..being altogether beyond the power of man, the cure had been applied by the direct stroke of an all-wise Providence in a manner as unexpected and as unthought of as it is likely to be effectual.

The judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson, that calamity must not be too much mitigated. …The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people.
Charles Trevelyan, head of administration for famine relief, 1840s

[existing policies] will not kill more than one million Irish in 1848 and that will scarcely be enough to do much good.
- Queen Victoria's economist, Nassau Senior

A Celt will soon be as rare on the banks of the Shannon as the red man on the banks of Manhattan.
- The Times, editorial, 1848

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 12:36 PM

I would be extremely grateful if you could produce some evidence of your claims on Woodham Smith, Kee, Coogan

?
I have made no claims about the first two.
I said Coogan had IRA links and fought with his books as his father fought with a gun.
The fraudster was JTT's source from that wacky cult.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 12:46 PM

Kineally Quote:
"To a large extent, the popular understanding of the Famine (that means you Jim) in Ireland still follows a traditional, nationalist paradigm. Within this model, 'blame' is generally attributed to key groupings, either within the British government or within the landlord class. To some extent, these beliefs were fostered by the state school system south of the border, which itself arose out of particular historical circumstances. In 1922, for example, the Free State government instructed history teachers that pupils should be 'imbued with the ideals and aspirations of such men as Thomas Davis and Patrick Pearse' and that they should emphasise 'the continuity of the separatist idea from Tone to Pearse' (see Francis T. Holohan, 'History teaching in the Irish Free State 1922-35' in HI Winter 1994)."

"The arguments regarding the role of the British government are not sustainable. In the summer of 1847, in the wake of the almost total second failure of the potato crop, the British government established soup kitchens throughout Ireland. At the peak of this scheme, over three million people, that is, forty per cent of the population, were receiving free rations of food daily from the soup kitchens (which, even by the standard of contemporary famines, is a tremendous logistical achievement). To make this possible, a comprehensive and nation-wide machinery was created within Ireland in the space of only a few months. As a consequence of this scheme, mortality began to fall as, for the first and only time during the Famine, the problem of hunger was confronted directly"

"Conclusion

Revisionism has polarised historical debate in Ireland and has stifled the more theoretical and philosophical approach to history which has developed elsewhere. Revisionism has dominated Irish historiography since the 1930s, and more intensely since the 1960s"

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 01:32 PM

You reall have decided to go down with the sinking
ship

"Woodham Smith's book was derided as "a novel" by the historians of University College Dublin."
"Popular books on the Famine, notably those by Cecil Woodham-Smith and Robert Kee, which have placed suffering at the heart of the Famine, have been derided or dismissed by many within the academic establishment,"

There really is no point in continuing to give a second of the time of day with somebody who lies about something he said less than half a dozen posts earlier - don't call me, I have no intention of calling you.
Over and out
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mayomick
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 01:35 PM

Keith, Are you sure that you have quoted the conclusion accurately ?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 02:22 PM

Remember I do not lie Jim.
Kineally,
" Roy Foster, an influential revisionist, in an article optimistically entitled 'We are all revisionists now', pejoratively described Woodham Smith as 'a zealous convert', whilst, in 1964, a question in an undergraduate history examination paper in University College Dublin stated 'The Great Hunger is a great novel. Discuss'."

Mick, yes, that is the unedited first sentence.
Google the text or use the link supplied.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mg
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 07:12 PM

I think we all have to be prepared for many relevations via DNA..many more mass graves or ditches uncovered...many of us will be smitten with names of our own ancestors...

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 07:02 AM

Yes, more sadness as more of the tragedy unfolds.
And how sad that this thread became an argument.

A second tragedy was that the first was used by politicians and activists to award blame and to foment hatred between peoples and nations.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 09:43 AM

Keith, it's all been good, at least since the British Invasion. You don't have gun violence. And now I understand you're putting filters on the internet so that children's first ideas about love and sex are not influenced by filthy pornography. We can't get great stuff like that over here. They would scream bloody murder about their "freedom" and lay everything at the parents feet knowing full well a parent cannot protect their children from these negative influences in today's world. There is no sense of social responsibility, no social contract worth a shit.

And then there's my bestest friend Jimmy, wholly of British descent, best drummer in the entire world. When my bad ankle acts up on me, he's the only one who can fix it. So were it not for the British, i would be hobbling around like a gimp.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 01:07 PM

" Roy Foster, an influential revisionist,"
Don't suppose you have any evidence of Foster's "revisionism"
Won't hold my breath for a reply but in the meantime, some evidence about what he and "All historians generally agree" about the behaviour of the British Government during the famine.
Don't suppose you care to tell us where to got your information about Foster's revisionism - nope? - I thought not.
Two corrections - the Famine, certainly as far as the descendants of the victims is concerned, is a political issue
Oh - and you do lie by the way. (28 Jul 13 - 01:32 PM )
Jim Carroll   

Suggestions of genocide[edit]
A claim was made by a U.S. professor of law, Francis A. Boyle that the Famine was genocide by the British against the Irish, meaning that the famine was part of a deliberate policy of planned extermination. One U.S. historian, James Mullin, insists that what happened can be described as genocide, sometimes accusing other historians, statisticians and researchers who state otherwise of pushing a British point of view, or of revisionism, rewriting history to make excuses for British imperialism.[8] However more U.S., British and Irish historians, such as Professors F.S.L. Lyons, John A. Murphy, ROY FOSTER, and James S. Donnelly, Jr, as well as historians Cecil Woodham-Smith, Peter Gray, Ruth Dudley Edwards and Cormac Ó Gráda have denied claims of a deliberate policy of genocide. ALL HISTORIANS generally agree that British policies during the Famine (particularly those applied by the ministry of Lord John Russell) were misguided, ill-informed and counter-productive, and that had a similar crisis occurred in England instead of Ireland then the government's response would have been very different.
"Democide", a recently coined term, has been suggested to be more appropriate — referring to a deliberate policy of negligence rather of planned extermination.[9][not in citation given] The famine killed one million Irish through hunger and related diseases such as cholera. A million others emigrated during the famine, with millions more following them in the following decades. The vast majority of these people were Roman Catholic, traditionally less inclined towards loyalty to the Crown.
While it could easily be said that the famine and its after-effects ended conclusively any chance of Ireland ever being a military or economic threat to Britain again, it should be also noted that the famine's long term demographic effects were less the result of deaths from starvation (which, as with most famines, affected the old, the very young and the sick disproportionately) and more the result of emigration (which affected the young population of reproductive age). It seems almost certain that economic factors alone would have caused considerable emigration from Ireland even without mass starvation, therefore it is a matter of conjecture as to what the population of Ireland would be today had there not been a famine in the 19th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_of_the_Great_Irish_Famine

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 01:27 PM

The kind of "revisionist" Foster is considered in historical circles

"It would be wrong to leave anyone under the impression that "revisionism" is defined by Foster and similarly-minded people. The great Cambridge historian, Professor Brendan Bradshaw, carefully analysed what authentic revisionism was at a 1995 historical conference in New York. He accepted that all working historians are 'revisionist', in that they analyse new material that comes on stream, new sources that are opened, and private papers that are donated for research—all of which leads to new questions and obviously new conclusions. But there he departed from agreement with our revisionists."
http://www.atholbooks.org/extracts/foster_preface.php
Yours as ever
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 01:43 PM

" Roy Foster, an influential revisionist,"
Don't suppose you have any evidence of Foster's "revisionism"

No I do not.
I imagine that Christine Kineally had her reasons for saying that though.

Who said "All historians generally agree" ?

Remember I am not a historian Jim.
I do not understand your last two posts at all.
What are you asking me?
What are you saying?
What was my lie?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 02:34 PM

- the Famine, certainly as far as the descendants of the victims is concerned, is a political issue

Why?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 03:04 PM

"Remember I am not a historian Jim."
You really don't have to keep repeating this - it is glaringly obvious you are nowhere near one - it 's not a get-out-of-jail-free card for your displays of ignorance.
If you care to follow the link (or would that be too much like hard work) you will find that Foster is in fact a "revisionist" in the historical sense - someone prepared to revise their views in the light of new evidence. What you have been claiming throughout this is that "revisionists" are stuck somewhere in the first half of the 20th century - the opposite of the case.
I raised the point because I once heard Foster speak - he stuck me as neither an "80 years of of date" Republican, nor was he someone who was prepared to re-write history to suit an agenda - unlike your good self.
Your touching faith in Christine Kinnealy seems not to extend to her having said"

"Moreover, much of this death from the Famine need not have taken place. The Irish Famine was not just caused by food shortages, it was also due to political and economic choices. As a consequence, ideology triumphed over humanity.
In the face of food shortages, relief provided by the government was inadequate. Imports of food were too small to meet the scale of the problem. At the same time, large amounts of food continued to be exported from Ireland. In 1847 – 'Black '47' – 4,000 ships left Ireland, each carrying large cargoes of food to Britain."

Which is basically the crux of what is being suggesting here.
Her other statement in no way absolves the British from their crimes against humanity.
Peel's Government indeed did bring some relief.
In 1845 that Government fell and was replaced by Russell's Whig Government which set about dismantling all the humanitarian work Peel did and replaced it with a laissez faire policy, closed the food storehouses and replaced them with soup kitchens from which the people could not benefit if they owned more than a half acre of land - it turned famine victims into beggers.

Russell's home secretary Charles(?) Wood not only encouraged evictions, but it provided troops in order to carry those evictions out - one of the prime reasons for suggesting (in the words of Christine Kinealy" "The Irish Famine was not just caused by food shortages, it was also due to political and economic choices. As a consequence, ideology triumphed over humanity."
Nor is her reference to Irish historians relevant here - all the major critical quotes you have been given come from British historians.
Neither does your respect for her extend to your making the effort to spell her name correctly apparently.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 03:10 PM

Cross posted
"Why?"
Because the outcome of the famine
"all historians generally agree that British policies during the Famine (particularly those applied by the ministry of Lord John Russell) were misguided, ill-informed and counter-productive, and that had a similar crisis occurred in England instead of Ireland then the government's response would have been very different"
At best, political incompetence and neglect, at worst, a deliberate ploy to solve "the Irish Question" (doesn't that phrase have a shiveningly familiar ring?)
Whatever the truth - it was a political act that requires a political understanding.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 04:23 PM

By the way
My apologies for wrongly accusing you of lying - it was not you who claimed that Mrs Smith and Tim Pat Coogan and Robert Kee were disregarded by historians, it was Ms Kinnealy - my misreading, sorry.
It's not accurate of course, beyond the fact that many professionally qualified historians disregard the opinions of those with no academic qualifications (the same is true of folklorists, as I have been made well aware over the last thirty years).
However you did write od Tim Pat Coogan:
"Closely linked to IRA he fights for them with his books as his father fought with a gun." That is a blatant invention on your part - a lie in fact.
You have persistently refused to either qualify that lie; that is agenda-driven distortion of facts - a distortion.
You will continue neither to withdraw or qualify that statement - another distortion.
You also accused Coogan

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 04:33 PM

Whoops
You also wrote:
"Coogan and the cult fraudster are not historians."
Coogan has never been accused of "fraud" by anybody - you invented it - a lie.
You have repeatedly refused to qualify that statement - a distortion.
You spinelessly tried to pass the buck by accusing of making the statement - even if he had, it was you who persistently used it to back up your fallacious arguments - a spineless lie.
I think we are finished here - don't you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 04:33 PM

Whoops
You also wrote:
"Coogan and the cult fraudster are not historians."
Coogan has never been accused of "fraud" by anybody - you invented it - a lie.
You have repeatedly refused to qualify that statement - a distortion.
You spinelessly tried to pass the buck by accusing of making the statement - even if he had, it was you who persistently used it to back up your fallacious arguments - a spineless lie.
I think we are finished here - don't you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 05:31 PM

Amen, I say, amen.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 02:27 AM

Coogan and the cult fraudster are not the same person.

"Closely linked to IRA he fights for them with his books as his father fought with a gun." That is a blatant invention on your part - a lie in fact.

His father WAS a fighter.
He himself must have had good links with IRA to write authoritively about them and about their prison protests, and his books support the Republican agenda.

I leave arguing the points of history to the historians.
You must accept that there is a "nationalist" and a "revisionist" view.
I think both should be discussed.
You think one should be suppressed and censored.
Why?

The historians themselves say that the revisionist view is "dominant."
What is your denial worth compared to that Jim?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 03:09 AM

"It would be wrong to leave anyone under the impression that "revisionism" is defined by Foster and similarly-minded people. The great Cambridge historian, Professor Brendan Bradshaw, carefully analysed what authentic revisionism was at a 1995 historical conference in New York. He accepted that all working historians are 'revisionist', in that they analyse new material that comes on stream, new sources that are opened, and private papers that are donated for research—all of which leads to new questions and obviously new conclusions. But there he departed from agreement with our revisionists."

"The historians themselves say that the revisionist view is "dominant."
Your star witness, revisionist (???) Christine Kineally's Quote:
"Moreover, much of this death from the Famine need not have taken place. The Irish Famine was not just caused by food shortages, it was also due to political and economic choices. As a consequence, ideology triumphed over humanity.
In the face of food shortages, relief provided by the government was inadequate. Imports of food were too small to meet the scale of the problem. At the same time, large amounts of food continued to be exported from Ireland. In 1847 – 'Black '47' – 4,000 ships left Ireland, each carrying large cargoes of food to Britain."
http://www.ballinagree.freeservers.com/knealy.html
"He himself must have had good links with IRA to write authoritively about them and about their prison protests"
So you say that everybody who writes a good book about the IRA, Hezbollah, Al Qaida, the Ku Klux Clan, The National Front,.... any extremist organisation, must be a supporter who "fights for them with his books"
Now there's an interesting slant on historical study - moron.
Coogan's reputation stands on its own merits as historically accurate, neutral and exhaustively researched.
You have invented your 'facts' about him - you lied and you are now defending those lies with an outrageously stupid suggestion.
Provide your proof or withdraw your accusation otherwise you will continue to lie.
"You think one should be suppressed and censored."
I really don't expect an answer to this but if you have any evidence of my having ever suggested anything be "suppressed or censored" please produce it - yet another example of your 'lying in public'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 04:21 AM

I do not lie Jim.
Remember how you objected when I added 3 short revisionist quotes to what was an entirely one sided thread.
Why?

No historian could be completely uncritical of the government.
People starved.
Their efforts were inadequate to the scale of the catastrophe.
But she states,
"The arguments regarding the role of the British government are not sustainable"

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 04:28 AM

Dr. Steven Davies.
"How culpable were the British ministers of the 1840s? They are charged with having given inadequate, limited relief because of their commitment to a doctrine of laissez faire. However, given the scale of the problem and the acute nature of the crisis once the harvest had failed for a second time in 1846, there was little they could do."

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 04:54 AM

Coogan's reputation stands on its own merits as historically accurate, neutral and exhaustively researched.

According to who?

Apart from his popular books, has he ever been published in specialist journals to be read by real historians?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,gutcher
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 05:45 AM

Read "The Diary Of A Highland Lady In Ireland" by a Mrs Smith nee Elizabeth Grant of Rothiemurchus for an interesting view by an outsider of the landowners side of the story which contains first hand details of the problems faced by small estate owners who, lets face it, were more concerned for their own survival and place in society.
E.G. having been brought up in a paternal highland society in Scotland at least tried to alleviate the problems of the poor within the constrictions mentioned.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 05:47 AM

You have failed to justify your accusation that I have suggested suppression and censorship
You have not even referred to your lying about Tim Pat Coogan
You have filled this thread and this forum with lies and distortions
Your insistence on dominating these threads with your attention-seeking habit of having the last word has dragged every thread into the sewer
You lie here and you continue to lie
Please go away - you leave an extremely unpleasant taste in the mouth
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 06:03 AM

You have failed to justify your accusation that I have suggested suppression and censorship

You dismissed my quotes from respected and well qualified historians as "holocaust deniers."

You have not even referred to your lying about Tim Pat Coogan
I did not lie about him, and I did respond to you.


You have filled this thread and this forum with lies and distortions
No. I have merely quoted the finest historians, without comment.

Your insistence on dominating these threads with your attention-seeking habit of having the last word has dragged every thread into the sewer

No. You have posted far, far more than I have.

You lie here and you continue to lie

Easy to say when you have nothing else, but I just do not lie Jim.
If you disagree with anything, argue against it.
The fact is that you can not.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mayomick
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 11:08 AM

Keith, you quote from the "respected well qualified historian" Christian Kineally , but what she writes doesn't support the case you make for the existence of some anti-British famine myth that has been nurtured for politico-economic reasons by a cabal of biased Irish historians . There are no conspiracies to make up stories in order to denigrate Britain in Irish history departments , let me assure you.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 11:49 AM

There are no conspiracies to make up stories in order to denigrate Britain in Irish history departments , let me assure you

I believe you Mick, but the popular writers outside those departments know their market.
Denigrating Britain sells.
A balanced view awarding no blame stays on the shelves.

Christian Kineally , but what she writes doesn't support the case you make for the existence of some anti-British famine myth that has been nurtured for politico-economic reasons by a cabal of biased Irish historians .

This passage by Dr Christine actually does say that, I think.

"To a large extent, the popular understanding of the Famine in Ireland still follows a traditional, nationalist paradigm. Within this model, 'blame' is generally attributed to key groupings, either within the British government or within the landlord class. To some extent, these beliefs were fostered by the state school system south of the border, which itself arose out of particular historical circumstances. In 1922, for example, the Free State government instructed history teachers that pupils should be 'imbued with the ideals and aspirations of such men as Thomas Davis and Patrick Pearse' and that they should emphasise 'the continuity of the separatist idea from Tone to Pearse' (see Francis T. Holohan, 'History teaching in the Irish Free State 1922-35' in HI Winter 1994). In Protestant schools in Northern Ireland, Irish history was rarely part of the curriculum (see Peter Collins, 'History teaching in Northern Ireland' in HI Spring 1995). Accordingly, in many Irish schools, a heroic but simplistic view of Irish history emerged, a morality story replete with heroes and villains. This approach, however, was subsequently challenged by the Irish academic establishment. In the 1930s, a number of leading Irish academics—following the lead of British historians earlier in the century—set an agenda for the study of Irish history, which placed it on a more professional and scientific basis in terms of research methods and source materials. At the same time this approach also demanded the systematic revision and challenging of received wisdoms or unquestioned assumptions. What was specific to Ireland, however, was the declared mission to challenge received nationalist myths, and by implication, although less centrally, loyalist myths. Thus, at the launch of the influential Irish Historical Studies journal in 1938, the editors stated their commitment to replace 'interpretive distortions' with 'value-free history'. To a large extent, however, this debate took place within the rarefied atmosphere of academia and failed to percolate down into the schoolrooms either north or south of the border."

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 12:22 PM

It seems that generations of Irish schoolchildren have been brainwashed with false history presenting Britain as "villain."
Poisoning children's minds with hatred has cost many lives and much misery and it still goes on.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mayomick
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 02:58 PM

The Irish academic establishment was challenging the simplistic heroic popular understanding of the famine , attempting to correct the traditional "blame" paradigm , as long ago as the nineteen-thirties. Its agenda was to replace the popular distorted version of Irish history by adopting a professional,scientific, methodological approach to history studies. The efforts of the academic establishment have largely failed to shift the popular understanding.

Would you say that was a fair summary , Keith? There's no mention whatsoever in that quote you gave of an anti-British famine myth nurtured for politico-economic reasons by a cabal of biased Irish historians.Quite the opposite.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 03:03 PM

"It seems that generations of Irish schoolchildren have been brainwashed with false history presenting Britain as "villain.""
Yours with deepest gratitude
Jim Carroll

Thank you, thank you, thank you]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63o8exNK4-Q

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 03:44 PM

There's no mention whatsoever in that quote you gave of an anti-British famine myth nurtured for politico-economic reasons by a cabal of biased Irish historians.Quite the opposite.

Correct Mick.
The Irish historians were and are objective truth seekers.
Dr. Christine said the myth was nurtured by Irish politicians.
" the Free State government instructed history teachers that pupils should be 'imbued with the ideals and aspirations of such men as Thomas Davis and Patrick Pearse' and that they should emphasise 'the continuity of the separatist idea from Tone to Pearse' (see Francis T. Holohan, 'History teaching in the Irish Free State 1922-35' in HI Winter 1994). In Protestant schools in Northern Ireland, Irish history was rarely part of the curriculum (see Peter Collins, 'History teaching in Northern Ireland' in HI Spring 1995). Accordingly, in many Irish schools, a heroic but simplistic view of Irish history emerged, a morality story replete with heroes and villains."

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 08:47 PM

An interesting ddocumentary of these events from Canada, where many Irish suffering from the famine landed.



""Death or Canada: Fleeing the Irish Famine

Ballinran Entertainment produced a two-part documentary for Canadian television several years ago that appeared on Irish, English, and Canadian television. The one-hour 34-minute program describes the Irish immigration to Canada during the potato famine. The story in the film is heartbreaking and at the same time commands respect and awe for those that made the trip in "coffin ships" and survived that their children and children's children might have a better life in North America.""


Death or Canada Part 1

Death or Canada Part 2

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 08:50 PM

Last post was from me, Ed T.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 12:16 AM

A song my band did regarding the famine roads. The video was put together for the Aquinas College Irish study abroad group in Tully Cross. My daughter was there.

Along The Famine Road, written by Brian Flynn, performed by The Conklin Ceili Band

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mg
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 01:03 AM

And you must hear Brendan Nolan's "Far from Home." and Johnny McEvoy wrote a great one..name escapes me...another one Deckman sent me and is on another computer now..what fascinates me the most is the people who were in the famine and wrote it during, right after or perhaps later. Johnny Seoghue?? was written by a famine sufferer. Skibereen later. There is also another version of Skibereen which is quite wonderful. Three grains of corn seems like a Victorian parlor song of the darkest gloom but was based on a true story...a coronor's report actually..from County Mayo..it made its way into a New York and I believe Ohio paper...at least one in obituary section..boy's name was Edward M'Hale. I have written about five or six songs..one about Grosse Isle...it is so sad it does not have a tune...Dan O'Hara was a true person. Nora Garvey was a true person (pride of dunquin)..we need to put names and stories to these bones that are being unearthed. And perhaps some religious ceremonies because they were so afraid of not being buried properly..which of course they were not.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 06:59 AM

One result of the famine
I leave comment to those who have preformed opinions


St Patrick Battalion song

St Patricks Battallion

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mayomick
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 08:05 AM

Keith said in his previous response to me that the Kineally passage in question "does say that" a cabal of Irish historians existed who were responsible for the creation of an anti-British famine myth. Today he writes the opposite, that Irish politicians and not Irish historians were responsible for creating this famine myth - Irish historians are a scrupulously objective bunch of truth seekers!
The Irish academic establishment of the thirties thought that an objective, value-free, blame-free study of Irish history was needed and that historians should keep their patriotism in check while conducting research. The non-historian Keith approves of such a rigorous impartial approach for Irish history departments, but doesn't think that he needs to keep his own patriotism in check when commenting on Irish history. For Keith, exculpating the British government is objective, but blaming Britain for the famine is not objective.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 08:25 AM

The non-historian Keith approves of such a rigorous impartial approach for Irish history departments,

That is fair and true Mick.
Do you not approve of impartial history too?

but doesn't think that he needs to keep his own patriotism in check when commenting on Irish history.

There is nothing in any of my posts to justify that slur Mick.
I do not deserve that insult and would ask you to look again and reconsider.

For Keith, exculpating the British government is objective, but blaming Britain for the famine is not objective.

I accept the objectivity of the professional historians.
Why don't you Mick?

The Irish academic establishment was challenging the simplistic heroic popular understanding of the famine , attempting to correct the traditional "blame" paradigm , as long ago as the nineteen-thirties. Its agenda was to replace the popular distorted version of Irish history by adopting a professional,scientific, methodological approach to history studies. The efforts of the academic establishment have largely failed to shift the popular understanding.

Would you say that was a fair summary , Keith?

Yes.
That is what I now believe, having read Dr. Christine K and the others.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 08:30 AM

I do not understand why you attack me Mick.
I have posted nothing that could possibly be described as "patriotic."

My crime is to believe the professional historians?
If not, what are you attacking me for?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 08:53 AM

Fascinating links Triplane - many thanks.
Recruitment into the British or US army in the years following the Famine provided the inspiration for a number of songs, the most popular in Irealand being 'Patick Sheehan' which tells of an evictee whose family starved to death on the side of the road diring the Famine and who was forced to join the army, ending up as a beggar after having been blinded at the battle of Sebastopol.
It immediately became so popular that it forced the authorities to change the laws regarding servivemens' pensions.
We included a version on our collection of Clare songs, 'Around the Hills of Clare' sung by our neighbour, Vincie Boyle.
The version below, with note comes from the indespensible, 'Songs of Irish Rebellion', by Swiss folklorist Georges-Denis Zimmermann
Jim Carroll

PATRICK SHEEHAN
(1857)

TEXT: Broadside in the N.L.I. Written by Charles Joseph Kickham, under the pseudonym of «Darby Ryan, Junior». First printed in The Kilkenny Journal, 7th October, 1857; ((Patrick Sheehan, a recruiting song for English recruiting officers)!.

My name is Patrick Sheehan,
My years are thirty-four;
Tipperary is my native place —
Not far from Galtymore;
I came of honest parents —
But now they're lying low —
And many a pleasant day I spent
In the den of Aherlow.

My father -died, I closed his eyes
Outside our cabin door '—
The Landlord and the Sheriff, too,
Were there the day before —
And then my loving mother,
.And sisters three also,
Were forced to go with broken hearts
From the Glen of Aherlow.

For three long months, in search of work,
I wandered far and near;
I went unto the Poorhouse For to see my mother dear —
The news I heard nigh broke my heart;
But still in all my woe I blessed the friends who made their graves
In the Glen of Aherlow.

Bereft of home, and kith and kin —
With plenty all around —
I starved within my cabin,
And slept upon the ground!
But cruel as my lot was,
I ne'er did hardship know,
Till I joined the English army,
Far away from Aherlow.

"Rouse up there," says the Corporal,
"You lazy Irish hound,
Why, don't you hear, you sleepy dog,
The call 'to arms' sound?»
Alas! I had been dreaming Of days long, long ago —
I awoke before Sebastopol,

And not in Aherlow.
I groped to find my musket —
How dark I thought the night;
O, blessed God, it was not dark,
It was the broad day-light!
And when I found that I was blind,
My tears began to flow;
I longed for even a pauper's grave
In the Glen of Aherlow.

A poor neglected mendicant
All in the public street,
My nine months' pension now being out,
I beg from all I meet;
As I joined my country's tyrant
My face I'll never show
Along my kind old neighbours
In the Glen of Aherlow.

Oh! blessed Virgin Mary,
Mine is a mournful tale,
A poor blind prisoner here am I
In Dublin's dreary jail;
Struck blind within the trenches
Where I never feared the foe,
And now I'll never see again
My own sweet Aherlow.

Then Irish youths, dear countrymen,
Take heed of what I say,
For if you join the English ranks
You'll surely rue the day,
So whenever you are tempted
A-soldiering to go,
Remember poor blind Sheehan
Of the Glen of Aherlow.

TUNE: Kickham considered that his ballad could be sung to any "lamentation air"; in fact it is associated with the tune "Irish Molly-O", Joyce, (1909), No. 403.
There is a more popular variant of this tune, with the same text, in Father Walsh's Songs of the Gael, vol. Ill, p. 148.

NOTE: On 28th September, 1857, The Freeman's Journal published the following information: «A young man named Patrick Sheehan was brought up in custody of Police-constable Lynam, charged with causing an obstruc-tion to the thoroughfare in Grafton-street. The constable stated that the prisoner was loitering in Grafton-street for the purpose of begging, having a placard on his breast setting forth that he had served in the Crimea in the 55th regiment; that he had lost his sight in the trenches before Sebas¬topol, and that he was discharged on a pension of six pence per day for nine months; and that this period being now expired, he was now obliged to have recourse to begging to support himself. A Crimean medal was found on his person . . . The prisoner was committed for seven days for begging.
Reading this article, Kickham saw there an opportunity "to discourage enlistment in England's service by exposing the savage ingratitude she displays to those who become disabled while soldiering for her." (Quoted in James Maher's anthology The Valley near Slievenamon, p. 85.) With the song, the Kilkenny Journal printed a letter from the author explaining that he had done his best to compose his verses in the popular style: "I wrote them tough and vigorous, such as the old ballads of the people used to be, that they may seize on the popular ear and produce the intended effect on the popular heart, and mind, and spirit of the country. And for this object there is nothing like a rough, but racy street-ballad . . ".
Kickham was successful in his attempt, for the ballad was soon sung in the streets all over Ireland; it appeared on many broadsides, the only changes being in the punctuation. It is said to have shamed the government into inquiring about the ex-soldier, to whom a life pension of a shilling a day was granted

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 12:37 PM

"It seems that generations of Irish schoolchildren have been brainwashed with false history presenting Britain as "villain.""
This is a grossly distorted representation of what happens in Irish schools – but then again, the clown who suggested it is "no educationalist" as I'm sure he'll scurry behind when asked to qualify his statement.
Irish children are taught to understand their history and be proud of their country's achievements – as I was of Britain's when I attended Speke Secondary Modern in Merseyside.
If teachers attempted to teach to regard Britain as "the villain" they would receive very short shrift from parents, especially those who have or whose parents have lived there and regularly state that they are "grateful for the opportunity to be able to get employment there when there was none to be had in Ireland.
In the forty years we (a Liverpudlian and an Aglo-Scot) have been visiting and finally living here we have never encountered a moment's hostility due to our origins – I can't for the life of me ever remember seeing a sign reading "No English need apply" or being referred to as a "t'ick Brit".
Any animosity is directed against politicians and the devastating effect they have had on Irish life.
The only time we thought we might have problems was when we arrive at the height of the hunger striker's dying and this town was hung with black flags – no hostility, just the usual hospitality.
I wonder if an Irish couple would have received a similar welcome then – well, I don't really!
It was around that time I was told by a family I was working for "we have Irish neighbours so we have to check under our car before we drive off in the mornings".
"....a cabal of Irish historians existed who were responsible for the creation of an anti-British famine myth"
The opposite is the case.
The vast majority of historians place the murderous outcome of the famine firmly at the door of the Whig Government and their representatives, Russell, Trevelyan and Wood in particular, including Christine Kinealy.   

"Christine Kinealy expresses the consensus of historians when she states that "the major tragedy of the Irish Famine of 1845–52 marked a watershed in modern Irish history. Its occurrence, however, was neither inevitable nor unavoidable."[136] The underlying factors which combined to cause the famine were aggravated by an inadequate government response.
As Kinealy notes,
"...[T]he government had to do something to help alleviate the suffering, the particular nature of the actual response, especially following 1846, suggests a more covert agenda and motivation. As the Famine progressed, it became apparent that the government was using its information not merely to help it formulate its relief policies, but also as an opportunity to facilitate various long-desired changes within Ireland. These included population control and the consolidation of property through various means, including emigration... Despite the overwhelming evidence of prolonged distress caused by successive years of potato blight, the underlying philosophy of the relief efforts was that they should be kept to a minimalist level; in fact they actually decreased as the Famine progressed."[137]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)

The only way to state otherwise is to extract the useful bits and ignore the rest – "being economical with the truth" I think it's called.
The jury is still out on whether the Famine can be regarded as a "holocaust" or "ethnic cleansing" remains to be seen, but the process of smearing anybody who might make such preposterous suggestions are well underway (here at least).
Incidentally, Kinealy presented a fascinating "Thomas Davies" lecture entitled 'The Role of the Poor Law During the Famine'
An extract:

"ALTHOUGH THE TREASURY HOPED that all external financial assistance to the unions would end after the autumn of 1847 this was not possible. Pressure for relief continued to be high even after the harvest of 1848, and demand for Poor Law relief was higher in a number of unions in 1849 than it had been at any stage since 1845. In addition to current Poor Law expenditure, the Poor Rates also had to be used to repay earlier advances by the Treasury. Officials in England, however, had declared the Famine to be over since 1848, thus justifying their policy of minimum intervention.4' In the British government subscribed only £156,000, and £114,000 in 1849 (over half of which was a loan) in aid of the Poor Rates. This was far less than the £4,848,000 advanced -or the support of the public works in the months following the disastrous harvest of 1846." Furthermore, by 1848 most of the external charitable assistance to Ireland had dried up, throwing the burden almost exclusively on the local rates. Despite this, the Treasury repeatedly reprimanded the Poor Law Commissioners for providing relief 'too liberally'. Increasingly, a split was apparent between the perception of 8-he Famine by officials in Ireland and those in London. Twistleton's frustration with this policy was apparent and he rebuked the government because:
"The extent of the calamity which affects the Distressed Unions and the intensity of the distress in them, do not seem to be fully understood in England."
The Whig administration, however, was determined that the financial dependence of the Irish poor on British resources should finally be brought to an end.

Kinealy goes on to describe the introduction of a 6d-in-the-pound tax, known as 'the rate in aid' which was aimed at "all ratable property in Ireland"
"The financial responsibility for Irish distress was no longer to be an imperial charge but was transferred to the taxpayers of Ireland on the grounds that parts of Ireland had recovered from the famine and could make a greater contribution to the poorest unions."

A couple of explanations – Unions were workhouses
Edward Twistleton was Chief Poor Law Commissioner who resigned because "the destitution here is so horrible, and the indifference of the House of Commons (British Government) to it so manifest, that he is an unfit agent of a policy that must be one of extermination."
Far from absolving the British Government from blame Kinealy points the finger directly at them.
Her lecture, and fifteen other make riveting reading and are to be found in 'The Great Irish Famine' ed. Cathal Póirtéir and published by Mercier Press in conjunction with Radio Telefís Éireann in 1990
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 01:52 PM

So now I am a "clown" as well as a liar, a racist and an arsehole.
I think this solemn subject deserves to be discussed with more dignity Jim.

My observation about education was based solely on the quote, " the Free State government instructed history teachers that pupils should be 'imbued with ...."

We know that quote was genuine because it is on the History Ireland page.
If I am a clown, she must be too.
Is she Jim?

Do you know who wrote that Wiki page?
Should we believe a Wiki entry "The vast majority of historians place the murderous outcome of the famine firmly at the door of the Whig Government" that directly contradicts what the actual historians actually state?

Re. the Kinealy quote, unless there are two Christine Ks, I do not know how to reconcile that quote with what she unequivocally states in History Ireland.

All the links given are to genuine, original quotes.
They are all contradicted by that Wiki page.
We need to know who wrote it.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 03:17 PM

Dr. K's quoted book was 1997 and took a nationalist view.
Her "Beyond Revisionism" piece was written before that.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mayomick
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 03:18 PM

I'm not attacking you , Keith . You have admitted that you are no historian and are content to base your judgement of the famine on the views of professional historians . Most professional historians from your own country ,Britain , agree with the consensus of Irish professional historians: that the United Kingdom government – the government of Ireland throughout the nineteenth century - should bear the major political responsibility for the deaths that occurred during those terrible years .The thrust of your argument goes against that.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 04:04 PM

"So now I am a "clown" as well as a liar, a racist and an arsehole."
All four Keith - give that man a cigar.
You have an opportunity of absolve yourself from lying (but only on this thread - it is now habitual with you on this forum) by either qualifying or withdrawing your accusations of my suggesting censoring or suppressing and your claim of Coogan's support for the IRA, but as you will do none of these your lying stands.
"My observation about education was based solely on the quote, " the Free State government instructed history teachers that pupils should be 'imbued with ...."
She might have added, and possibly did, considering the few lines you've quoted, that all states, in certain circumstances produce a formula for teaching history which suits the given circumstances.
I was brought up to believe the British Empire was wonderful and entrepreneurs like Rhodes, Livingstone and Stanley were opening up Africa to civilise the savages, when in fact they were facilitating murderous exploitation.
I was vaguely aware of events like Amrisar, but I had to go and see the film Ghandi in order to learn about the massacre.
We were taught what 'them indoors' wanted us to know.
Ireland is a relatively new state - 91 years old , and still six counties short.
When it came into existence it was necessary to imbue the people with pride and self confidence after many centuries under the rule of a foreign power.
I find it excusable that they should extol the virtues of Davis (a poet and patriot who suffered and eventually gave his life for the cause of a free Ireland) and Pearse, a teacher and intellectual who died in an attempt (five years later to prove successful) to gain independence for his country.
"Poisoning children's minds with hatred has cost many lives and much misery and it still goes on" is purely your own invention and is typical of your hatred for anybody who opposes state terrorism and mass murder - be they 'Johnny Foreigner' or "loonie Leftie".
My knowledge of Irish education, what little it might be, is based on experiences of family members, many of whom received their education in Ireland and on long term and close association with teachers, including several headmasters - oh, and of living here for 15 years.
"We need to know who wrote it."
Can we be clear on this - "WE" don't need to know anything - once again you are alone in peddling a line supporting human rights atrocities - you don't read, or totally ignore information that is put up that doesn't suit your particular line.
For the benefit of anybody else who might be interested, as I pointed out, the Wiki entry is perfectly comparable with what she said in her Thomas Davis lecture and what she has written elsewhere - and what "the majority" of historians appear to believe.
Trevelyan described the Famine as "God's Punishment", the British Chancellor imposed a property tax on Landlords, great and small, which forced them to evict tenants in order either to survive or stay wealthy and the Government facilitated the eviction of over 300,000 families and destroyed their homes so they were forced in many cases to die on the roadside of starvation or disease. To make sure these evictions were carried out efficiently they even supplied armed police and soldiers to prevent opposition. WHAT MORE IS THERE TO SAY
Do you realise that you have nor once attempted to explain, or even refer to these evictions, which, on their own, qualify as mass murder - genocide even"?
Wiki invites people to add to or correct many of their articles, including this one - why not give them the benefit of your vast knowledge and experience - I'm sure they would be eternally grateful, and as impressed with you as we are!!!
Is Christine Kinealy a clown - no, she certainly isn't, but when her statements are taken, nibble-sized and out-of-context to her other writings to prove exactly the opposite to what she is saying, she becomes yet another victim of your agenda-driven crusades.
You have been given large chunks of what she wrote and said, alongside quotes from mainly British historians - and masses of official documentation from contemporaries who on the spot at the time - you have chosen to ignore all of them - why wouldn't you; that's what you do best.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 05:38 PM

Mick.
Most professional historians from your own country ,Britain , agree with the consensus of Irish professional historians: that the United Kingdom government – the government of Ireland throughout the nineteenth century - should bear the major political responsibility for the deaths that occurred during those terrible years .The thrust of your argument goes against that.

I have not made any argument, and am in no position to.
The quotes produced on this thread indicated that most historians believe that the government was not responsible for the deaths.
How did you get the opposite impression?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 06:02 PM

Jim.
absolve yourself from lying (but only on this thread - it is now habitual with you on this forum) by either qualifying or withdrawing your accusations of my suggesting censoring or suppressing and your claim of Coogan's support for the IRA, but as you will do none of these your lying stands.

Do you deny objecting to my putting quotes from revisionist historians Jim.
It is right there in this thread.

I said that Coogan had links to IRA.
How else would he get such inside knowledge?
No outsider could have got that.

She might have added, and possibly did, considering the few lines you've quoted
The WHOLE piece was linked to.

"Poisoning children's minds with hatred has cost many lives and much misery and it still goes on" is purely your own invention and is typical of your hatred for anybody who opposes state terrorism and mass murder - be they 'Johnny Foreigner' or "loonie Leftie".

I just hate children to be fed propaganda giving them cause to hate.

Wiki invites people to add to or correct many of their articles, including this one - why not give them the benefit of your vast knowledge and experience
Yes I could, even though I have no historical knowledge.
Any biased, partisan bigot could.
Perhaps the writer was.
Who knows?

but when her statements are taken, nibble-sized and out-of-context to her other writings
The whole History Ireland piece was linked to for reference.
Nothing was taken out of context.


You have been given large chunks of what she wrote and said, alongside quotes from mainly British historians

Most historians take the revisionist view.
I was given her History Ireland piece by your bro' Grumpy.
It said the government could not be blamed and revisionism was the dominant view of historians.
You have only given the other stuff in the last few hours.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mayomick
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 08:45 PM

Keith,

"She is a historian, a doctorate in History from Trinity College Dublin and author of "numerous scholarly articles" beside her 16 books on Irish history.
We have seen she is published in "History Ireland."
Cougan never has been and never will."

An endorsement coming from such a fervent anti-republican as yourself would raise many an academic eyebrow at History Ireland magazine, I'm sure
This from the Irish Soldiers Pardons Campaign (WW2) website will perhaps give you an idea of the leanings of HI's founder and editor, Tommy Graham's .
http://www.forthesakeofexample.com/


7. Tommy Graham Editor of History Ireland stated in his contribution on the BBC NI Newsline programme, 2 February 2012; "My suggestion is that they be given an amnesty. A Pardon implies that the government did something wrong". An Amnesty is a legislative or executive act by which a state restores those who may have been guilty of an offence to the position of being innocent, it includes more than Pardon, in as much as it obliterates all legal remembrance of the offence. In contrast, a Pardon is the forgiveness of a crime and can change or remove the effects of the penalty, however the scope of both Amnesty or Pardon is also dependent on the language used. Actively supported by the Irish Government through diplomatic channels the British government was able to use considered parliamentary language to alleviate the roughness of their Pardons amendment passed by the House of Commons in November 2006 for the 306 WW1 Shot at Dawn.. and the history of world war one remains intact. Even though the Irish Government Report had previously adduced evidence that WW1 court-martials were legally flawed the British pardon did not decide on the guilt or innocence of those Irish born British soldiers executed for military offences during world war one but did remove insofar as practicable the stigma of dishonour that was attached to the executions for the sake of the families and did so in a unique way which avoided the issue of fault by not apportioning blame to either side. Crucially the British Pardon did not displace the history of the Shot at Dawn but left that history intact for the historians to deliberate on ad infinitum. In the March April 2012 edition of History Ireland Mr Graham also suggests inter-alia that the court-martialling of deserters would have been more severe thereby implying that the political process route viaEmergency Powers (362) Order of 1945 was mild in comparison, he should ask the families as to whether the so called punishment was mild or not and taking into account that Mr Graham had not seen the contents of theBlacklist until 28 February 2012, perhaps he should do the research first before making further ill-informed comment. Dail Eireann/the Irish Parliament is not a military court of law and no amount of side stepping or obfuscation of the English language on the part of Mr Graham et al can change that fact. Pursuant to the separation of powers in the Irish constitution Dail Eireann as a political chamber cannot legally subvert the judicial function of the courts and if Mr Graham has evidence to the contrary he should produce that evidence forthwith. The political process inaugurated by the de Valera government to adjudicate on the desertion issue post war and which Mr Graham argued as being masterly on a television broadcast in 2011 was legally flawed from the outset and the policy of Irish Neutrality which Mr Graham has also raised has nothing whatsoever to do with the treatment of the desertion issue per se. Indeed raising the policy of Irish neutrality is a red herring and is intended to distract the debate away from the questionable political process that was used by the de Valera Government some three months after the end of the second world war to adjudicate on persons who were subject to Irish military law and accused of desertion during the Emergency. The introduction of Emergency Powers (362) Order 1945 was a cynical political exercise which ousted the jurisdiction of a military court of law and the administration of justice for the sake of political expediency and shows a total disregard by the de Valera Government for the constitutional rights of its own Irish citizens post war. Although in a previous interview with the BBC Mr Graham recommended an amnesty as a solution, he now recommends that the Attorney General should leave matters as they are and then opines sarcastically in his editorial "I understand that she has other, pressing matters on her desk in any case". Interestingly Mr Graham was an avid supporter of the Shot at Dawn Campaign Irl and fully supported the Irish Government in its efforts to achieve the one size fits all blanket pardon granted by the British Government in November 2006 for the WW1 Irish Shot of Dawn on the basis of an injustice but is apparently not in favour of a one size fits all blanket pardon for Irish defence force personnel subjected to the rigours of the one size fits all Emergency Powers (362) Order of 1945. Mr Graham's obvious contempt for the objectives of the Irish Soldiers Pardons Campaign (WW2) and our families really comes into its own when he permits the unauthorised publication of a photograph and a family heirloom of a group of soldiers now deceasedin his magazine. The use of this photograph in the History Ireland article "The Disowned Army" by Donal Fallon is a breach of copyright irrespective as to whether the family member is credited or not and despite indicating to the editor that the families be left out of the issue it was included against our expressed wishes. One wonders as to what ethos and editorial guidelines History Ireland subscribes to? It seems Mr Graham and Oscar Traynor have something in common and are re-echoing Traynor's Words of Condemnation that these Irish defence force (alleged) deserters and their families are not worthy of consideration? As our campaign effort is focused primarily on seeking natural justice for surviving veterans and their families, and as Mr Graham and History Ireland are vehemently opposed to any resolution to the pardons issue on the spurious grounds that political expediency takes precedence over the democratic principles of natural justice and the right to defend oneself in the military courts, and as Mr Graham's view represents a significant departure from the rights of citizens as determined by the Constitution of Ireland, the question now arises as to which constitution does Mr Graham owe allegiance to?In common law legal systems such as in the Republic of Ireland, is not the trial/conviction/punishment of a person/alleged deserter in absentia, that is, in a trial/military court in which he/she is not present to answer the charges, held to be a violation of natural justice and an infringement of a persons right to a fair hearing?Significantly at the end of October 2011 the proposed 30th Amendment of the Irish Constitution dealing with the powers of the Oireachtas/Irish Parliament, was heavily criticised on the basis that politicians would be given powers to determine for themselves what is fair and what is not and that citizens would be deprived of their right to legal representation if passed by referendum. Senior legal figures including Professor Gerry Whyte of Trinity College also expressed disquiet that the amendment might give the Oireachtas power to conduct inquiries in which people could be deprived of their right to fair procedure. The Irish Council for Civil Liberties (ICCL)urged Voters to reject the proposals which they claimed could turn Oireachtas Committees into "kangaroo courts". A group of eight former Irish attorneys-general came out against the referendum, stating that these proposals would seriously weaken the rights of individuals to their good name and provide insufficient protection for the independence of the judiciary. Various other eminent legal practitioners raised concerns about this provision including former Minister for Justice Mr Michael McDowell SC who urged the electorate to Vote No to inquiry powers while we can and explained his ratio publicly in the Irish Sunday Independent 23 October 2011arguing, that the proposed constitutional amendment was utterly disproportionate, unjustifiable and commented:"If no politician in the present Government and only a handful in the Dail have had the courage to speak out against it (30th Amendment of the Irish Constitution) when it was being cooked up in secret, how can we trust a Government in future not to abuse these powers"? Mr Graham should note that the referendum on Houses of the Oireachtas Inquiries was rejected by the Irish people on Thursday 27 October 2011. Irrespective as to whether defence force personnel enlisted in UK forces or went elsewhere, was not Emergency Powers (362) Order of 1945so constructed that its effect was to frustrate the right to a fair hearing for all defence force personnel named as deserters in the de Valera Government Blacklist post war? Was not Emergency Powers (No. 362) Order of 1945 a legislative exercise of a judicial power which determined the guilt and inflicted punishment on an identifiable class e.g. defence force personnel without the provision and protection of a judicial trial, e.g. a military court-martial? Surely all citizens have equal rights pursuant to the Irish constitution? In this regard it is instructive to note the submission on the 31 August 1976 by An Taoiseach (Prime Minister) Liam Cosgrave TD to Dail Eireann as he moved the resolution to introduce Emergency Powers Bill 1976 and the Criminal Law Bill 1976. Mr Cosgrave stated inter-alia "there have been comments and headlines which suggested that the Oireachtas was to be asked to suspend the Constitution. Deputies will appreciate, I am sure, that this is not so. If it were true, the Constitution would have been suspended since 1939. The reality is that it has not been so suspended by adoption of the present resolution. The protection from Constitutional challenge which would be afforded would extend solely to laws expressed to be for the purpose of securing public safety and the preservation of the state". The subsequent Irish Supreme Court decision In Re Art 26 and the Emergency Powers Bill 1976 - 1977 Irish Reports 159 is the legal authority which establishes that an Emergency Powers Bill leaves general constitutional rights intact. Consequently as the Constitution of Ireland Bunreacht na hÉireann was not suspended during the Emergency had not accused defence force personnel the inalienable right to adduce and challenge evidence in their defence according to military law as persons subject to military law and within a military court of law following the conclusion of world war two? For Mr Graham et al to argue, suggest or by implication promulgate the view that political expediency takes precedence over the democratic principles of natural justice and fair procedures in a democracy which has a written constitution is legally and morally untenable. The proposition that the military offence of desertion is unforgivable, unpardonable and that a pardon would be tantamount to condoning desertion within the Irish Defence Forces being advocated by those opposed to the pardons campaign is also CODOLOGY. The same contention was disseminated some years ago by those who were also opposed to the granting of pardons to the (Irish) Shot at Dawn on the spurious grounds that any compassionate act by the British Government to Pardon WW1 Servicemen would be prejudicial to the good order and military discipline of UK forces. For the record The Morale and Military Discipline of the British Armed Forces remains steadfast. Other governments have pardoned service personnel dismissed for desertion without undermining their status quo. The ingenuity of the New Zealand Government parliamentary draftsman in constructing a simple and straightforward text which does not rewrite the history of the New Zealand WW1 executed is exemplified unambiguously in theirPardon for Soldiers of the Great War Act 2000 and for the record The Morale and Military Discipline of the New Zealand Defence Force remains steadfast. Irrespective, we are confident in the Bona Fides of the Minister for Defence Mr Allan Shatter T.D. who has the necessary political and legal acumen to deal judiciously and compassionately with the Pardons issue in the interest's of the surviving veterans and their families and to do so without changing the history of the Emergency or tearing up the Manual of Irish Military Law... and for the record The Morale and Military Discipline of the Irish Defence Forces is steadfast...and will always remain steadfast;

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 02:40 AM

Very interesting, but I do not see the relevance.
Was Coogan ever published in HI or other journals?
Has he any qualifications?
Has he ever been employed as a historian?

This thread is about the famine.
My only contribution was to remind that not all historians apportion blame on the government.

What is your objection?

Have I displayed any patriotism as you accuse?
Have made any arguments at all or have I just provided quotes from historians?

Why did you say, "For Keith, exculpating the British government is objective, but blaming Britain for the famine is not objective" ?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 03:29 AM

"Do you deny objecting to my putting quotes from revisionist historians Jim."
Yes I bloody well do.
I argued against the points you made,and I pointed out that those points were based entirely on a tiny handful of cut-'n-pastes which you appear not even to have read properly yourself, nothing more.
If you have one single shred of evidence that I have ever attempted to censor or suppress discussion here or anywhere, please produce it or stand self-condemned as a liar
To suggest that there are two methods of historical thought - revisionist (80 years out-of-date) and modern, and to teach one of them in school is to "Poison children's minds with hatred has cost many lives and much misery and it still goes on" is not only grossly inaccurate, but it is an extreme form of censorship - "teach my line or you are advocating murder" - nothing less.
"I said that Coogan had links to IRA. How else would he get such inside knowledge?"
He got his information the same way as every other good journalist/historian gets it, by hard work and research. Are you seriously suggesting that he is the only writer to cover the IRA, or the blanket protests, or all the other aspects of the Troubles?
If not, are you accusing the rest of them of having "links with the IRA.
British MP Chris Mullins wrote a magnificently researched book on The Birmingham Six (Error of Judgement) in which he helped to prove them innocent and expose the fact that the police knew years beforehand who the real bombers were - did he have "links with the IRA?
If you have one single shred of evidence that Coogan has "links with the IRA" please produce it or stand self-condemned as a liar
"I just hate children to be fed propaganda giving them cause to hate."
If you have any evidence whatever that Irish children are being fed propaganda and taught to hate - please produce it.... well, you should know the rest by now
"Yes I could, even though I have no historical knowledge"
So you are advocating that self-confessed ignoramuses like yourself should be taken seriously even though they admit (and constantly hide behind) their/your lack of knowledge as an excuse for balls-ups.
If you could put us straight on the facts on the Irish Famine, why not start here, so far you have based your entire case on (in your own words) a couple of cut-n-pastes that contradict the opinions of "the majority of historians, including your own star witness, who has appeared to have crumbled to dust in your hands. - do you really believe that is the way to seriously discuss history - jeeeeeze!!!
"Nothing was taken out of context."
Of course it was - have you ever read books like 'The Great Hunger' or any of those she referenced - you appear never to have even heard of it until I brought it up here? The reference list given adds up to about two years reading at my reading speed.
You pompously claim to now be familiar with and understand Kinealy's writings, yet you have scooped up a couple of quotes, half digested them and got them horrendously wrong. You are now reduced to denying the veracity of what she wrote which was included in the Wiki article - "clown" seems to be a much understated description for you.
"Most historians take the revisionist view."
You don't even appear to understand the term "revisionist" and are clutching it like a comfort blanket - read the article you were given.
"It said the government could not be blamed and revisionism was the dominant view of historians."
If you read it properly, she was referring to the Peel government whose beneficial work was deliberately unravelled by the one that followed led by Russell - that is what did the damage and led to the British being accused of genocide - read the **** facts - all of them.
Are you seriously claiming that she didn't write and that somebody made up:
"Moreover, much of this death from the Famine need not have taken place. The Irish Famine was not just caused by food shortages, it was also due to political and economic choices. As a consequence, ideology triumphed over humanity.
In the face of food shortages, relief provided by the government was inadequate. Imports of food were too small to meet the scale of the problem. At the same time, large amounts of food continued to be exported from Ireland. In 1847 – 'Black '47' – 4,000 ships left Ireland, each carrying large cargoes of food to Britain."
http://www.ballinagree.freeservers.com/knealy.html
If she did, and she believes at the same time that Britain was not to blame for what happened, she is either a very poor historian making contradictory statements, or a bloody schizophrenic.
There - I've answered all your points and wasted far too much time doing so - now have the courtesy and the balls to answer the points I've made - honestly, if you are still capable of it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 03:38 AM

"The quotes produced on this thread indicated that most historians believe that the government was not responsible for the deaths."

Again I see where you are coming from but also see why you're not getting anywhere. Most historians it is true would say that the idea there was a deliberate genocide where the gvt wanted people to die in their multitudes just doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny. Surely you see though that what they are saying is not the same as saying the gvt was not to blame for the famine being worse than it may have been. They simply did not react in the way which ensured deaths were kept at a minimum and their prejudices and pig headedness in sticking to doctrine would often hinder rather than help. To give an example there is no conflict in the two statements made by Frank Welsh in his "The Four Nations".

"As for the accusation that the famine was a wicked English plot, that of course is quite absurd; but as in many other things, the emotional myth remains much more powerful than the dull truth"

He then goes on to state that the suffering had no parallel in 19thC European history and points out

"The excess mortality in that period can, fairly and squarely, be laid at the door of the Lord John Russell's government"

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 03:43 AM

"My only contribution was to remind that not all historians apportion blame on the government."
No - your point is, and has been from the beginning, that "the majority of historians" totally absolve the British Government from blame and those that don't are "revisionists" whose work is "80 years out of date and Republican agenda-driven" - are you totally incapable of making a straight honest statement?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 04:34 AM

No - your point is, and has been from the beginning, that "the majority of historians" totally absolve the British Government from blame and those that don't are "revisionists" whose work is "80 years out of date and Republican agenda-driven"

Wrong Jim. Look back.
I came in to give the other view, and that is all I did.
I have never given my own view as I am not qualified to have one.
I did not realise that it was the "dominant" view of historians and had been since 1930 until someone else linked to Christine K who stated that fact.

My comment on education was just a reference to Doc. K who said the Irish government required schools to give a history of "heroes and villains."

I have not read any books on the subject.
I am not emotionally involved except that no-one could fail to be moved by the human tragedy of it.

"Do you deny objecting to my putting quotes from revisionist historians Jim."
Yes I bloody well do.

There you admit your will to suppress and censor.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 05:15 AM

What on earth are you talking about - do I deny objecting to your putting quotes from revisionist historians - of course I ****** well do I did not object and you lied when you claimed I did; now you appear to be twisting and distorting something which is totally beyond me

"I came in to give the other view, and that is all I did."
"I just saw the thread dominated by the discredited and outmoded nationalist version of history and gave three very brief extracts that reflect the revisionist view that has been the dominant view of historians these last eighty years."

"That is the version of history that was exclusively given in this thread, apart from my 3 short extracts, even though historians have recognised for over eighty years now that it is false."

"It has been exposed as a lie for more than eighty years, but it is perpetuated and fed to each new generation to sustain the hatred that is the blight that now afflicts the land."
"It has been exposed as a lie for more than eighty years, but it is perpetuated and fed to each new generation to sustain the hatred that is the blight that now afflicts the land."

"It has been exposed as a lie for more than eighty years, but it is perpetuated and fed to each new generation to sustain the hatred that is the blight that now afflicts the land."

"His nationalist view we know, thanks to your supporters, has been rejected by actual historians for over eighty years now."

"His nationalist view we know, thanks to your supporters, has been rejected by actual historians for over eighty years now."

"You need excuses and justification for your prejudice, and if eighty years of consensus is not enough for you, you are destined to die still loathing us."

"Likewise the information that revisionism has been the dominant view of historians for over eighty years"

"And all the actual, professional historians are wrong and have been for eighty plus years."

"I just quoted that one passage that said revisionism had been dominant for eighty years."

Your penalty points for telling porkies must be a possible entry in the Guinness Book of records

"I have not read any books on the subject."
Blindingly obvoious - your entire knowledge appears to be based entirely on cut-'n-pastes which you have not evemn bothered to read properly.
Not only have you qualified you lies, but you have compounded them with even more.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 05:55 AM

I say again, I did not even know it was the dominant view until Grumpy linked to Dr. K.

This thread started on 14th.
I joined on 15th.
Grumpy linked on 17th.
I first referred to the "dominant" view AFTER THAT.

You are wrong.
I joined the thread only to give examples of the other side of the debate.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 05:58 AM

"Do you deny objecting to my putting quotes from revisionist historians Jim."
Yes I bloody well do.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mayomick
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 08:06 AM

Keith
For somebody who likes to intervene on mudcat Irish history threads you show a remarkable ignorance of the currents within Irish historical research. That's the relevance of the last link I supplied to this debate : it indicates your ignorance and partly explains the contradictions that flow from your ignorance of these currents.   . You were castigating the Irish government over its handling of the WW2 soldiers' pardon campaign a year or so ago. And now you are paying tribute to a magazine edited by Tommy Graham of all people! Graham would be the very type of republican apologist condemned by the likes of you in 2011 for refusing to endorse the pardoning of WW2 Irish army deserters.
You are not aware of the fact that HI was founded by a republican sympathiser who has very similar views to those held by Tim Pat Coogan on issues such as the famine. Coogan would be held in high regard by the magazine's editors. As far back as 2004 letters were being sent to the magazine complaining about the "soft" HI interview that had been conducted by a republican academic with Coogan . One critic complained that "[t]he nationally minded renowned academic Professor Bradshaw afforded the green light to Mr Coogan in every sense of the word, allowing him to propagate, unchallenged, his Gaedhil distorted nationalist image of Irish history." Coogan reply is published as well here :
http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/tim-pat-coogan
Your bafflement at what you perceive to be contradictory positions taken by Dr Kineally in regards to revisionism shows that you simply don't understand how the word "revisionism" is used in Irish historical studies.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 08:11 AM

You are attempting to deny the position you have taken here on both counts
I DENY I HAVE OBJECTED TO YOUR PUTTING ANY POINT OF VIEW
I DENY EVER HAVING OBJECTED TO ANYBODY PUTTING ANY POINT OF VIEW
I DENY EVER HAVING ATTEMPTED TO SUPPRESS OR CENSOR ANYTHING ON THIS FORUM AT ANY TIME OR ON ANY THREAD
HAVE YOU COMPLETELY FLIPPED - WHAT IS YOUR POINT - WHERE ARE YOU ATTEMPTING TO TAKE THIS?

You have, throughout this thread, attempted to absolve Britain from any blame whatever for the outcome of the Famine.
You have described those who disagree with you as "anti-British", "revisionsist", Irish Republican supporters, IRA supporters, 80 years out of date.... and a whole host of other things.
Your claims on Christine Kinealy's stance on this subject has totally fallen to pieces, so much so you appear to be arguing that her statement on Wike has been faked - "Do you know who wrote that Wiki page?"
You have been given another article by her saying the same thing, which you have totally failed to acknowledge
http://www.ballinagree.freeservers.com/knealy.html
You now appear to be blaming somebody else for putting something up that you have claimed to believe in - Grumpy in this case.
We appear to be back to Jack Straw and your claims of cultural implants.
You are a total mess, dishonest and self confessedly ignorant
What the hell is wrong with you.
If you can't argue on these subjects honestly, articulately and with some degree of genuine interest and knowledge - why bother attempting to dominate them the way you persist on doing?
You have insisted on having the last word on virtually every thread you have become involved in, you will no doubt do the same here.
If you know nothing of these subjects, find out about them - that is what debate should be about.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 08:43 AM


You have, throughout this thread, attempted to absolve Britain from any blame whatever for the outcome of the Famine.

No. I just quoted some historians.

Your claims on Christine Kinealy's stance on this subject has totally fallen to pieces, so much so you appear to be arguing that her statement on Wike has been faked - "Do you know who wrote that Wiki page?"

No. In that HI piece she took a revisionist stance.
Her later book did not.
The Wiki quote from that book was genuine I am sure, but you can not rely on Wiki to be objective.
Anyone can and does put stuff on there.

You now appear to be blaming somebody else for putting something up that you have claimed to believe in - Grumpy in this case.

No. He provided the link to Doc K.
I had not even heard of her before, and neither had you.(You told me there was no such person!)

And now you are paying tribute to a magazine edited by Tommy Graham of all people!
No tribute.
It is a recognised historical journal.
It publishes stuff by proper historians is all I said.
Whoever the editor, it is neutral.

Your bafflement at what you perceive to be contradictory positions taken by Dr Kineally in regards to revisionism shows that you simply don't understand how the word "revisionism" is used in Irish historical studies.
No.
She changed her view between writhing the HI piece and publishing her book.
No bafflement.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 11:24 AM

I take it we are not going to get an explanation for your extraordinary behaviour regarding your accusations - nor am I going to get either a qualification nor an apology
Fine - you have lied and you have walked away from that lie - must check how many penalty points that constitutes.
And now you are going to tell us that you never lie - another lie.
"You told me there was no such person"
Bump - another one - I doubted that she was one of your "prominent historians" as I had never heard of her and asked you for a link.
"Not a historian then, so we can't add her to your elusive-enough to be non-existent list of "qualified historians"?"
I then immediately wrote, correcting my ignorance of her, "Don't bother with that link Keith - I found her and she seems to have taken a line that you have described as 80 years out-of-date - a republican revisionist maybe."
"She changed her view between writhing the HI piece and publishing her book."
That is a total fabrication - she had written four books on the Irish famine between the years 1994 and 2002 - her piece in History Ireland was written in 1995.
I don't suppose you'd care to show us where and why she "changed her mind" so radically - no - of course you wouln't; once more you are making up "facts" to cover your own idiocy.
She did not "change her mind" - everything you, I and everybody else here have produced of her statements are perfectly consistent
Her original statement, as has been pointed out, referred to the Peel Government's response to the famine - there's never been a dispute about that; as Alan Conn pointed out:
"The excess mortality in that period can, fairly and squarely, be laid at the door of the Lord John Russell's government"
She was right in her first statement and she continues to be right.
You are manipulating researched historical facts to disguise your total ignorance on this subject.
One minute you are extolling Kinealy's virtues, and then, when you find her findings don't fit your argument, she becomes a dithering moron.
It is despicable that you should malign your main source of information by accusing her of of having "changed her mind" and to lay the blame for your having used her name on another member of this forum.
You say you are not a historian, yet your attacks on Kinealy and other writers/historians seem to indicate that you are not even willing to learn from their researches.
Are there no lengths to which you will go to absolve yourself from being wrong?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 02:02 PM

I have not and would not malign Dr. K.
You did. I provided a biog of her, and very impressive it is.

That 95 piece you hated said the government could not be blamed.
Her book said it could.
It also said that revisionism was the dominant view and had been for 80 years.
I do not believe she has withdrawn that statement of fact.

I take it we are not going to get an explanation for your extraordinary behaviour regarding your accusations

I thought I had.
Just specify what you want.

you have lied and you have walked away from that lie

And you are a bore.
I don't lie.
Produce one or give it up.

I don't suppose you'd care to show us where and why she "changed her mind" so radically

In 95 HI.
". Moreover, both the landlords and the British government have been rehabilitated; the former frequently being shown as hapless victims themselves, and the latter, as being ignorant of the real state of affairs in Ireland, and lacking both the financial and administrative capability to alleviate the situation anyway.
The arguments regarding the role of the British government are not sustainable. In the summer of 1847, in the wake of the almost total second failure of the potato crop, the British government established soup kitchens throughout Ireland. At the peak of this scheme, over three million people, that is, forty per cent of the population, were receiving free rations of food daily from the soup kitchens (which, even by the standard of contemporary famines, is a tremendous logistical achievement). To make this possible, a comprehensive and nation-wide machinery was created within Ireland in the space of only a few months. As a consequence of this scheme, mortality began to fall as, for the first and only time during the Famine, the problem of hunger was confronted directly"

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mg
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 09:25 PM

Oh for heavens sakes, he has not lied. He might be ignorant, wrong, pig-headed, whatever, but there is no need to question his or anyone's honesty.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 02:34 AM

Thank you (I think?)

I have admitted my own ignorance, but the historians I quoted can not be called ignorant.
And that is all I have done here.

The version put forward by everyone else here is disputed.
Is it wrong to air both sides of a debate?

It certainly made Jim angry, and Mayomick too.
Why?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 03:50 AM

"It certainly made Jim angry, and Mayomick too."
I really think you have taken this as low as it can get Keith.
Anybody reading this is is well able to decide whether whether you have lied or not about the contributions of others, they are also more than capable to decide on the merits of all the arguments put forward, but to continue this farce really does take it beyond the pale. It seems to have become a game of winning or losing with you, rather than the exchange of opinions and information it should be.
Neither I, Mick or anybody else has objected to putting "both sides of the debate", "suppressing" or "censoring".
I contribute to this forum to exchange opinions of others and to give my own and I assume Mick does too.
I won't ask you either to qualify or withdraw what you have just written - you don't do that sort of thing, but I suggest you leave it there - you really have said enough.
I'll leave you to have your customary last word.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 04:51 AM

I have nothing to qualify or withdraw.
I only quoted a couple historians.
For that I am called liar, clown, racist and arsehole.

"Do you deny objecting to my putting quotes from revisionist historians Jim."

Yes I bloody well do.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 04:58 AM

""Do you deny objecting to my putting quotes from revisionist historians Jim."
Yes I bloody well do."
If any friendly passing soul understands the point being made here, I would be extremely grateful for an explanation - I certainly haven't a clue what it is
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 05:30 AM

A thought.
It occurred to me earlier that you might, just might be twisting this into a claim that I am "objecting to your putting quotes from historians" - I dismissed the idea on the basis that not even you would go that far to distort what somebody said.
Your question was "Do you deny......"
My answer was, "Yes I bloody well do".
If this has been your purpose for consistently putting this up, please confirm, otherwise, be good enough explain your meaning.
Please read what people write - this includes reading your own postings I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 06:59 AM

I ended my post with your quote so you got "the last word" Jim.

Liam Kennedy.
But to narrow the focus simply to the role of the British government for a moment: for all the massive irresponsibility and buck-passing that characterised the five years of crisis, the state succeeded in organising public relief schemes that employed three-quarters of a million workers, and at one point was responsible for feeding three million people on a daily basis.

These are not the actions of a Government or a state bent on genocide.

http://www.qub.ac.uk/sites/irishhistorylive/IrishHistoryResources/ArticlesandLectures/TheGreatIrishFamineandtheHolocaust/

(bear with me on this for a moment please)

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 07:32 AM

No explanation of your accusation then - didn't think so - it seems I underestimated your hidden depths.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 07:35 AM

How debate should be.
Coogan and Kennedy discuss Coogan's book.
Coogan distances himself from "academic historians."

http://www.drb.ie/blog/writers-and-artists/2013/02/25/was-the-famine-a-genocide-

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 07:48 AM

Accusations?
I have not and do not accuse you of anything.
You clearly do object to my contribution here, or why the abuse?
That contribution has been solely to quote a couple of historians, and to defend doing so.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 09:20 AM

"How debate should be."
Indeed it should, not distortions of positions, no unqualified then ignored accusations of "censorship", or "suppression", no hidden agendas, no screeching u-turns and changes-of-direction in midstream, no praising to the skies then vilifying of respected and skilful historians..... in fact, a discussion on which one can make up their own mind on what is said rather than what is claimed to have been said.
The point Kennedy makes is a relevant one; "I can't think of a single historian who has researched the Famine in depth – and Tim Pat has not researched it in depth."
Strictly, this in not entirely accurate, Kinealy makes a fair job of having done so and she appears to have no particular agenda in doing, but a single extensive major work on the Famine has yet to be written; the subject, along with the continuing repercussions means it probably never shall be – it is very much a story still unfolding.
That Coogan distances himself from academic historians is an essential part of the history of historical research and goes back at least as far as the time what everybody believed the world was flat – Galileo was tortured for suggesting that the earth circled the sun, rather than the opposite way round, as was believed.
This debate is purely about whether the Famine can be described as a Holocaust, nothing more; as I've said, the jury is still out on that one.
Nowhere does Kennedy attempt, here or in any of his other writings, to deny the closing down of grain stores, the govern supported eviction of 109,000 families carried out with military and police assistance, the deliberate destruction of homes so the people could not return to them, the fact that, as Kinealy pointed out "large amounts of food continued to be exported from Ireland" and "In 1847 – 'Black '47' – 4,000 ships left Ireland, each carrying large cargoes of food to Britain", that while the million were dying there was enough food locked away in warehouses to deed the population four times over, that Tevelyan made it public knowledge in his own writings that he regarded the Irish as being "punished for their sins by God", making him the last person in the world to be given the job of distributing famine relief.
Nowhere else are any of these facts disputed, by "revisionist" or any other type of historian.
Deliberate intention aside, any one of these (unchallenged) facts makes the end result of the famine at least malicious neglect by the British authorities, leaving the possibility that it was ethnic cleansing and maybe genocide (certainly by today's definition of the term).
However many out-of-context cut-'n-pastes are supplied to score points, none of the facts of British actions at the time are in any way questioned by today's historians – even the politicians have gone as far as to apologise for them.
As far as I'm concerned it was a crime against humanity, it remains to be seen whether it was a deliberate act, - murder or just manslaughter.
Jim Carroll   
My copy of Coogan's 'The Famine Plot' has just landed on the doormat via The Book Depository, gawd bless them; (means I won't be watching 'River of No Return' tonight – damn! I was looking to it)
More later probably.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 09:57 AM

You are clearly an advocate of the nationalist school of thought then Jim.
I do not feel qualified to judge, but I am impressed by the fact that revisionism has long been the dominant view of actual historians.

Now the personal stuff.
Everyone else can stop reading now.

" not distortions of positions (NOT GUILTY), no unqualified then ignored accusations of "censorship", or "suppression"(YOU DID NOT APPROVE OF CERTAIN HISTORIANS BEING QUOTED), no hidden agendas (I HAVE NONE), no screeching u-turns and changes-of-direction in midstream MY POSITION HAS BEEN ABSOLUTELY CONSTANT AND UNCHANGING-2 SIDES TO THE DEBATE), no praising to the skies(NOT GUILTY) then vilifying of respected and skilful historians(NEVER DONE THAT EITHER)..... in fact, a discussion on which one can make up their own mind on what is said rather than what is claimed to have been said.(AMEN.)

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 12:18 PM

"You are clearly an advocate of the nationalist school of thought then Jim."
" not distortions of positions (NOT GUILTY),"
"Is it wrong to air both sides of a debate It certainly made Jim angry, and Mayomick too.?"
Where?
"YOU DID NOT APPROVE OF CERTAIN HISTORIANS BEING QUOTED"
Where?
"no praising to the skies"
You have based the vast majority of your argument on Kinealy's findings until the production of her apportioning of the blame to the Russell Government's policy, when she suddenly "changed her mind" - she did not and you have failed to even attempt to show that she did.
Her statement is totally in line with those of every other historian writing on the famine.
"MY POSITION HAS BEEN ABSOLUTELY CONSTANT AND UNCHANGING-2 SIDES TO THE DEBATE)"
Except your hot-cold relationship with Kinealy and your changing your dismissive and inaccurate rejection of opposing arguments as "revisionist", republican" and "80 years out-of-date" to "I'm only giving the other point of view.
You now appear to be saying, contrary to your former dismissal of "Republican" revisionism, that all modern historians are "revisionists" - now that's a turn-up for the book.
You have throughout, and continue to describe views condemning Russell's Government as "republican", "Revisionist" and "80 years out-of-date"
From your last posting - "You are clearly an advocate of the nationalist school of thought then Jim".
My stated views are those of the vast majority of historians writing on the subject - I deeply distrust nationalism and have pointed this out to you on numerous occasions (so in addition you are calling me a liar)
I leave nationalism to flag-waving apologists such as yourself.
"then vilifying of respected and skilful historians(NEVER DONE THAT EITHER"
You have accused a prominent historian (poor old Chrissie again) of writing four books on the famine and then changing her mind on one of its most fundamental features - vilification enough for me, or is that what good historians do?
You have been presented with a set of accurate, documented and fully established historical facts.
Rather than calling them "nationalist", "republican" and "revisionist", why not demolish them one-by-one - they are historical facts - if you would prefer, I am quite happy to put them up one by one so they are not "too long and boring" - a quote of yours from elsewhere.
Here's your starter for ten"
"the government supported eviction of 109,000 families carried out with military and police assistance, the deliberate destruction of homes so the people could not return to them"
To which I would only add that in some cases those evictions became necessary to small landlords because of a property tax deliberately imposed by the Home Secretary, Charles Wood, on all landlords when the famine was at its height so that "Ireland should stand on her own two feet and not rely on British support".
Please let me know if you have any problems understanding the statement here.
I don't expect an honest reply to this, nor to any other point I have made, which is a reply in itself
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mayomick
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 01:20 PM

"even the politicians have gone as far as to apologise for them."

There wasn't a single objection that I can recall from any political party in the UK to the wording of the apology - which would certainly have to have been approved in advance by the British monarch and the Privy Council.Perhaps the extreme right wing parties linked to Ulster loyalism said something nasty at the time, but nothing that I can remember . I don't recall any academic opposition to the apology.

Keith do you think that the apology was sincere ? If you think it was, then you should take up your points of disagreements with your own government . Or perhaps you think the apology wasn't sincere at all and that it was just made for the sake of political expediency. If that's the case it's a again matter to take up with the UK government.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 03:14 PM

While Keith is deciding to reply – or not – a review of Coogan's book and 'The Graves are Walking' by John Kelly from the "Republican", no doubt Economist Dec 12th 2012 (80 years out-of-date!!)
Jim Carroll

OPENING OLD WOUNDS .
"The Graves are Walking" by John Kelly, a historian and popular science writer, is an engrossing narrative of the famine, vividly detailing Victorian society and the historical phenomena (natural and man-made) that converged to form the disaster. The decimation of the potato crop in the 1840s brought on the danger of mass starvation, but it was the British response that perpetuated the tragedy. The hand of nature, as illustrated in both books, caused only part of the problem."
"Both authors describe the folly and cruelty of Victorian British policy towards its near-forsaken neighbour in detail. The British government, led by Sir Charles Trevelyan, assistant secretary to the Treasury (dubbed the "Victorian Cromwell"), appeared far more concerned with modernising Ireland's economy and reforming its people's "aboriginal" nature than with saving lives. Ireland became the unfortunate test case for a new Victorian zeal for free market principles, self-help, and ideas about nation-building……"
" But wages were often not enough to match the high food prices enforced by Trevelyan as a measure to attract imports to Ireland, especially from America……"
"The belief that the famine was God's intention also guided much of Britain's policy. They viewed the crop failures as "a Visitation of Providence, an expression of divine displeasure" with Ireland and its mostly Catholic peasant population, writes Mr Kelly. Poverty was considered a moral failure. Within a few years Irish immigrants flooded the port cities of Liverpool in England, Montreal and Quebec in Canada and New York. The emigrant was considered an object of horror and contempt, as Mr Kelly writes: "pedestrians turned and walked the other way; storekeepers bolted the door or picked up a broom; street urchins mocked his shoeless feet, filthy clothing and Gaelic-accented English." Throughout the book, Mr Kelly bemoans the tragic effects of human folly, neglect and Victorian ideology in causing the famine and its aftermath. He rejects the charge of genocide. Tim Pat Coogan, however, takes a more radical view in "The Famine Plot"……"
"His most compelling argument for British negligence is in the final chapter, in which he recalls the xenophobic images and words commonly used to caricature the Irish in Victorian England. Trevelyan and other architects of the famine response had a direct hand in filling the newspapers with the "oft-repeated theme that the famine was the result of a flaw in the Irish character." And Punch, a satirical magazine, regularly portrayed "'Paddy' as a simian in a tailcoat and a derby, engaged in plotting murder, battening on the labour of the English workingman, and generally living a life of indolent treason," explains Mr Coogan. The result of such dehumanising propaganda was to make unreasonable policy seem more reasonable and just……"
"The question remains as to whether misguided ideology of a previous era can be found culpable of a greater evil. Mr Kelly's engrossing book lays out the evidence but stops short of calling it genocide. Mr Coogan's opinion that the famine was genocide is clear. But both books make a compelling case for why we should revisit our current understanding of it……"
http://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2012/12/irish-famine
http://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2012/12/irish-famine

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 03:31 PM

Jim, if you did not object to my quoting the two historians, I am happy to be wrong but why the abuse?

The 95 HI piece from Christine K was a gift to me because it agreed with my quotes and stated that revisionism had been dominant for 80 years.
You rubbished her and I pasted her biog from Irish American.
No praise from me.

I admit I was surprised that her book took the opposite view, but never "vilified" her for it.
You would have every right to abuse me if I did.

I am not going to argue points of history.
I do not have that knowledge.

It is the truth that my sole contribution was to allow the other side to be put.
Now that you have stated you do not object, we have nothing to argue about.
We can discuss it without you calling me insulting, abusive names any more.
Like grown ups.

Mick, I think Blair is a cynical politician and not any kind of historian.
What is your opinion of him?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 03:36 PM

No surprise that The Republican loved Coogan's book.

Liam Kennedy, Professor Emeritus of Economic & Social History at Queens University Belfast thinks it is shite.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 08:41 PM

I will deal with your points in nibble-sized bites so you can ignore them one by one and be seen to do so.
"Jim, if you did not object to my quoting the two historians, I am happy to be wrong but why the abuse"
You have accused both Mike and I of "objecting to your quoting from the two histories" - you owe both of us apologies for having done so and if it is not to hide the fact that you have ignored every single point put to you, an explanation of your continuing appallingly dishonest behavior here.
You have ignored every request to produce examples to back up your claims. and even now you leave your accusation open. "if you did not object to my quoting the two historian....."
Where is your evidence of my doing so - what are your grounds for making this suggestion - where at any time have either Mike and I ever "objected" to what anybody has written, where have either of us ever advocated "censorship" or "suppression of discussion" (you can take this entire forum for your examples)?
"but why the abuse?"
If there is any "abuse" it is based on the fact that you have persistently ignored the points that have been made, you have persistently misrepresented what others have said (please - please ask me to provide examples), and you have denied ever making any accusations (want me to cut-'n paste where you have done this?)
You have dismissed every single point in opposition to your 'line', you have ignored virtually every piece of evidence that doesn't back you up as being as being "republican", "nationalist, "revisionist", "going against what all modern historians believe" and "80 years out-of-date", and now you are claiming you are only "putting both sides of the debate".. You are the only one arguing the line you are peddling here and you have dismissed out of hand every other point of view that is not coincide with your own.
You continue accuse us of accepting the "nationalist line" even though you have produced no evidence that this line, which is accepted by virtually all historians, is in any way "nationalist"
I can't speak for others, but if you have any basis for your claims of "suppression" or "censorship" - both of which you have denied making, "I have not and do not accuse you of anything." please present them now or withdraw them with an apology.
You might add to my annoyance that you have just been presented with a whole posting of facts which you have ignored a number of fully accepted, documented facts ""the government supported eviction of 109,000 families......." (02 Aug 13 - 12:18 PM)
You refuse to respond to these facts and you will continue to refuse to respond to these facts - which is fine, that you continue to do so merely underlines your total lack of evidence - you have not made a case and you will continue not to make a case.
Now, my nationalism, revisionism, support for republicanism, my and Mike's advocating suppression and censorship....
and everything you have accused me/us of and denied having done so - or a withdrawal and apology - neither of which I expect, which, as I say, speaks for itself.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 12:10 AM

I had the opportunity to attend a requiem service held in memory of the victims of the Holodomor at St. Patrick's Cathedral in NYC in November of 2011. Fr. Ivan drove a few of us there. The new patriarch of the Ukrainian Catholic Church, His Beatitude Sviatoslav presided over the liturgy and made some very memorable remarks. He called starvation "The cheapest weapon of mass destruction in the world." He also said this (which I cut and pasted from a transcript):

"One woman who survived the famine in childhood, and who later was a prisoner in Auschwitz, comparing these two tortures said hunger is something far more terrible than the concentration camp, because even in the camp they were given something to eat. All those who miraculously survived the Holodomor unanimously say that hunger is something more terrible than even war, because one still had a chance to escape war, but from such artificial destruction of salvation there was virtually no chance."

I'm sharing this to make the point that setting things up so that people will starve is a relatively passive way to do them in compared with gas chambers designed for that purpose. And as Sviatoslav said, it's cheap. In fact, you can make a profit. The Soviet Union did and so did Britain. The Germans have always loved their technology and they're so impatient. Starving takes a little while. Don't get me wrong. They were plenty hungry in the concentration camps. Here's how I know:

My grandfather had a brother who remained on the old country. In Halychyna which was occupied by the Nazis. My great uncle was drafted into service and became a guard in a concentration camp. Janowska, one of the lesser ones. Well, anyway, he got shot (stealing food from the commissary and smuggling it to Polish Jews).

My dad told me that story. I remember well that very serious look in his eye that he'd get when he told a story like that. And he had several others. My dad was a great story teller. That one was relatively short. If there was a story about something he had actually witnessed, then there'd be tons and tons of detail so vivid, you'd remember it like you had lived it yourself. So many stories he had. A real seanchaí Jim :-)

Jim, Keith, had enough to eat today? Good. Remember, you have the luxury of debating this and many other things. If all you could think about was finding something to eat, you could think of nothing but. Life could be a lot rougher for any of us. Plenty of people still starving in this world.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6zT4Y-QNdto

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 02:11 AM

"Remember, you have the luxury of debating this and many other things"
Thank you for that reminder SJL - we shouldn't need it, but we all-too-often do.
To fail to learn, understand, discuss and accurately represent our history is to disrespect the people you describe, to misrepresent their experiences, deliberately or otherwise, is to show disregard, even contempt for their sufferings and achievements.
Our history is not just 'a thing of the past', it is who we are and where we've been, and understanding that history will, or should decide where we, as human beings, go from here - an opportunity to get it right next time.
In relative terms, much of the history we are discussing here is actually not that old - in the course of our interest in oral history we met several people who knew some of those who were alive during the famine. The father of our local newsagent met an old woman in the south of this county (one of the places hardest hit) who was aged 16 at the time and remembered vividly and described her experiences to him.
It still makes me shudder to recall that it was during my lifetime that the Nazis deliberately drove six million Jews - and millions more non-Jews, into gas chambers or used them as human guinea pigs and slaves.
Thanks you for sharing some of your family's history - much appreciated.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 02:53 AM

And I remember you telling me how difficult it is to till your soil. I could only figure you'd work that hard if you were growing food. Not me with my flowers. All the same, watching things grow is something. Give them an inch, they'll take a mile. Here in Central New York, you should see the things I've planted. Things that started as twigs. Forsythias and honeysuckles grown so high they are in the windows of the second story!

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 03:11 AM

In our part of the world on the West Coast (I'm not Irish, but a 'blow-in Brit) the soil is clayey, undrainable and full of rocks and the Atlantic gales which create 60 mph fog out of the sea mist (according to a late friend) means that we can grown very little - we have to travel 20 miles to our local county town before we encounter trees in any significant number.
Probably our last view of a good flower display was on a recent visit to Central Dublin, where we saw the ubiquitous Buddleia growing out of the chimneys of many of the houses there.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 04:48 AM

You continue accuse us of accepting the "nationalist line" even though you have produced no evidence that this line, which is accepted by virtually all historians, is in any way "nationalist"

I did not create the terms for the 2 versions.
I use them because they are understood and accepted by historians.
The difference is the degree of blame given.
You make clear that you do blame.

Doc K told us, with evidence, that revisionism is the dominant view of historians.
Why should we not believe her Jim.

If you really did not mind my quoting 2 historians, what have we been arguing about since my first post?
That was my only contribution?

Please do not keep asking me about historical events.
I leave that to the experts.

SJL, amen to that.
I am sorry that this discussion became an argument.
I have tried to post with respect and serious points only.
No abuse and name calling from me.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 05:16 AM

My first post in full except the link.

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 10:04 AM

Another historical perpective.
"How culpable were the British ministers of the 1840s? They are charged with having given inadequate, limited relief because of their commitment to a doctrine of laissez faire. However, given the scale of the problem and the acute nature of the crisis once the harvest had failed for a second time in 1846, there was little they could do."

Jim, you responded by calling me a "holocaust denier" and "Not bothering to argue established facts with you Keith - been there before and it's a waste of time arguing with agenda-driven morons.
If you have any evidence whatever to disprove, or even challenge anything I have put up - feel free to do so.
Otherwise, take your claims elsewhere."

I just briefly gave one historian's view, and you tell me to go away.
It sounds like you really objected to that historian being quoted.
Even just 2 sentences!

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 05:31 AM

You have refused to qualify, or even acknowledge your accusations and you continue to lie abut them - "No abuse and name calling from me.", which is what I expected.
They stand as what they are, unjustified, unqualified and totally ignored (by you) inventions on your part.
I have been though your 95 postings to this thread; nowhere have you attempted to address or even acknowledge the undisputed facts of this subject - the closure of food stores, the policy to evict 3000 + families by taxation and to protect the evictors and home destroyers with armed police and soldiers, the shipping of food out of Ireland while a million starved, the locking up of grain in warehouses, the open contempt shown for Irish people by British officials and politicians.....
These are not opinions, they are historically documented facts known to all, historians and politicians alike.
You know this is true, which is why you have totally failed to respond to them - not even to deny them.
Instead you have clung to two or three historians, one of the main ones you have now rejected because she didn't make your case for you.
You now appear to be clinging to another one like a drunk around a lamp post, even though what he has to say has nothing to do with the proven facts of the famine.
Instead of argument you have given us labels and slogans, "republican", "nationalist", "revisionist", "80 years out-of-date"....
invented garbage which you continue you dishonestly offer up instead of even a pretence of argument.
Where have you even referred to any of these facts or attempted to disprove them - nowhere?
I have little doubt that you will continue to dominate this thread and will continue to offer nothing - this is trollism at its crudest.
Defend you ideas (if you have any) or show us where you already have defended them - give us one single example of where you have attempted to deal with any of the salient points of this subject - and stop lying about the serious contributors to this thread who care about it's subject and are not here on an attention-seeking ego trip.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 07:50 AM

Quickie before I'm accused of dodging your question the way you have dodged all mine
You have yet to acknowledge the fact that the Russell government locked up enough food set aside by Peel to feed four times the Irish population in order not to effect a commercial market hell bent on selling food to an entirely impoverished population.
Also, as Kinealy pointed out, "large amounts of food continued to be exported from Ireland. In 1847 – 'Black '47' (third year of the famine) – 4,000 ships left Ireland, each carrying large cargoes of food to Britain."
Plenty of food available - no desire to supply it to those who needed it.
Russell exacerbated the situation by facilitating the eviction of 300,000 families and destroying their homes so the starved at the side of the road - his Home Secretary Wood made these evictions possible (in some cases necessary) by introducing a tax that would bankrupt small landlords and force them to evict) - Coogan seems to have hit the mark square on - revisionist, republican, IRA supporter or not!
I don't suppose for one minute you will in any way respond to this in any way, but thanks for the opportunity for my putting it up again - I'm sure others care if you don't
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 08:00 AM

Jim, I keep telling you I am not qualified to debate history.
The professional historians who are, overwhelmingly do not agree with you and Coogan.

After pages and pages of one side of the story only, I posted a two sentence quote and link without comment from me.

For that you call me "holocaust denier" and "agenda driven moron."
You tell me to "take your claims elsewhere."

You can not deny objecting to the mainstream historical view being put.
You did.
You wanted it suppressed, censored, and taken "elsewhere."

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 08:09 AM

Instead of argument you have given us labels and slogans, "republican", "nationalist", "revisionist", "80 years out-of-date"....
invented garbage which you continue you dishonestly offer up instead of even a pretence of argument.

"republican", "nationalist", "revisionist", are all well understood terms Jim.
We have both used them, and so do all the historians.

"80 years out-of-date"....
That refers to Christine K who stated, with evidence, that revisionism is dominant and had been since 1930.

Nothing invented by me.
You are becoming increasingly desperate to malign me.
Let's stop now.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 08:19 AM

Can anyone tell me what "Quickie" posted, and/or explain why they were deleted.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 08:42 AM

Quickie means a hurried posting from me - , it was addersed directly to your no-one else involved - soory no help there.
"For that you call me "holocaust denier" and "agenda driven moron."
Which you are and continue to be - you have refused to answer every question that has been put to you. you have maligned historians
"That refers to Christine K who stated, with evidence, that revisionism is dominant and had been since 1930."
She has made her position perfectly clear; you have been given her stance and others on revisionism - by your argument she is accusing herself of revisionism
"You can not deny objecting to the mainstream historical view being put."
You are lying - show me where I have ever objected "to the mainstream historical view being put" - attempted censorship is your game with your constant whinge of "thread drift"
My only objection is that you have dominated thish thread with over 90 postings, have misrepresented and openly lied about the contributions of others, and said nothing whatever yourself. That is not discussion, that is trollism, which you have often accused others of in the past - unjustifiably and in order to get rid of the opposition - want me to supply some examples - only have to search through your postings for "troll" - you can easily do it yourself if you like.
You even deliberately trolled yourself once by posting support under a false name - wan't me to dig that one up too, I know where it is.
And just to remind you - you also accused Mick of the same thing you did me.
Now respond to my reply to your "little they could do."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 08:57 AM

For the interest of anbody in doubt as to Kinealy's position on who was to blame for the famine and revisionism
Now there's an end t' it! - or should be
Incidentally, do you know that one of Britain's leading historians, A.J.P Taylor referred to the Famine as "England's Belsen" - wonder if he supported the IRA!!
Jim Carroll

"At one level she assumes the role of the Roy Foster of Famine history and at another the mantle of a modern Cecil Woodham-Smith. She will not like the first description, for Foster is the arch-revisionist, not a species that finds favour with Dr Kinealy, since revisionists seek to remove blame from considerations of Ireland's past and Kinealy is very strong on blame."
http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/43

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 09:21 AM

You are lying - show me where I have ever objected "to the mainstream historical view being put" - attempted censorship is your game with your constant whinge of "thread drift"
My only objection is that you have dominated thish thread with over 90 postings,

You objected when I had only made one post.
Two sentences from a professional historian.
You told me to take his claim elsewhere, so you DID object to it.

I have not dominated this thread.
You have posted MANY TIMES more stuff than I have, and most of mine has just been refuting your attacks on me.

My sole contribution has been to quote a couple of historians.
WAHT IS YOUR PROBLEM?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 10:40 AM

I flipped a coin this morning to see which of you is more stubborn. Keith heads and Jim tails. Keith won.

I looked up buddleia Jim. Growing out of chimneys you say? Very pretty flower.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 10:42 AM

"You objected when I had only made one post."
"If you have any evidence whatever to disprove, or even challenge anything I have put up - feel free to do so.
Otherwise, take your claims elsewhere."
Nothing whatever to do with "other" historians", just your conntinual denial without proof
And you still have not explained your attacks on Mick - which is the posting wich started this argument.
And you have yet to respond to respond to my reply to your 'nothing could be done statement - which is my only gripe with you here - not "other points of view".
By the way - your postings now are around 100 - twice as many as any other single individual.
Now will you respond to my answer - or are you going to continue to evade the facts of this discussion with this smokescreen.
One more time-
Jim Carroll
"You have yet to acknowledge the fact that the Russell government locked up enough food set aside by Peel to feed four times the Irish population in order not to effect a commercial market hell bent on selling food to an entirely impoverished population.
Also, as Kinealy pointed out, "large amounts of food continued to be exported from Ireland. In 1847 – 'Black '47' (third year of the famine) – 4,000 ships left Ireland, each carrying large cargoes of food to Britain."
Plenty of food available - no desire to supply it to those who needed it.
Russell exacerbated the situation by facilitating the eviction of 300,000 families and destroying their homes so the starved at the side of the road - his Home Secretary Wood made these evictions possible (in some cases necessary) by introducing a tax that would bankrupt small landlords and force them to evict) - Coogan seems to have hit the mark square on - revisionist, republican, IRA supporter or not!
I don't suppose for one minute you will in any way respond to this in any way, but thanks for the opportunity for my putting it up again - I'm sure others care if you don't"

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 12:00 PM

One more time, I am not debating history with you.
I just thought that both sides should be put.
No fair minded person could object, but you did.

When I quoted just two sentences from a professional, academic historian, you objected with a shit storm of abuse.
His claims should be "taken elsewhere."
He was a "holocaust denier."
I was "an agenda driven moron"

Apart from defending myself from your abuse, my whole contribution would fit on one page.
Your word count far and away exceeds anyone else on the thread.

I will state my whole case again, and if you do not attack me again, I am done.

Not all historians agree that Britain should be blamed.
Dr. Christine K stated, quoting others , that such historians were "dominant" and had been since 1930.

I make no claim myself.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 11:18 PM

You can go,
But be back soon
You can go,
But while you're working.
This place,
I'm pacing round
Until you're home
Safe and sound

Fare thee well,
But be back soon
Who can tell
Where danger's lurking?
Do not forget this tune
Be back soon...

How could we forget
How could we let
Our dear old Fagin worry?
We love him so.
We'll come back home
In, oh, such a great big hurry

It's him that pays the piper.
It's us that pipes his tune
So long, fare thee well
Pip! Pip! Cheerio!
We'll be back soon...

You can go
But be back soon
You can go,
But bring back plenty
Of pocket handkerchiefs
And you should be clever thieves.
Whip it quick,
and be back soon
There's a sixpence here for twenty
Ain't that a lovely tune?
Be back soon...

Our pockets'll hold
A watch of gold
That chimes upon the hour
A wallet fat
An old man's hat
The crown jewels from the tower
We know the Bow Street Runners,
But they don't know this tune.

So long, fare thee well.
Pip! Pip! Cheerio!
We'll be back soon...

Cheerio, but be back soon.
I dunno, somehow I'll miss you
I love you, that why I
Say, "Cheerio"...
Not goodbye.

Don't be gone long but
Be back soon.
Give me one long,
Last look...
Bless you.
Remember our old tune...
Be back soon!

We must disappear,
We'll be back here,
Today, perhaps tomorrow.
We'll miss you too...

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 03:48 AM

"One more time, I am not debating history with you."
No you most certainly are not
"I just thought that both sides should be put."
Far from adopting a neutral, 'Devil's advocate' stance you have rejected with contempt and accusation anybody who has put forward the established facts of the famine.
You decided on a line at the outset and you stuck to it without producing a single scrap of evidence to back up your claims - your stance throughout has been to absolve Britain from blame, pure and simple - and your flag-waving nationalism has been pointed out to you by several people.
"Not all historians agree that Britain should be blamed."
Not true, otherwise produce one modern (or earlier) historian who has shown, or claims to have shown that:
Russell didn't reverse Peel's humane policy by locking up the food supplies in warehouses so as not to upset the markets.
That there wasn't enough food to feed the Irish population throughout the famine and that the greatest number of these were at the height of the suffering 'Black '47'
That thousands of ships carrying enough food to feed the starving didn't sail out of Ireland headed for British markets.
That the Home Secretary's introduction of a land tax didn't open the doors to the mass eviction of of over 300,000 families
That the homes of those evicted were not destroyed by the armed police and soldiers who were supplied by the British government to facilitate the evictions.
That those evictions were a major cause of the deaths and led to people dying without shelter and protection from the elements as well as from hunger.
That the man put in charge of food distribution didn't regard the Irish with contempt and declare openly that "the famine was God's punishment for the sins of the Irish.... or any other action or inaction by the British government that turned what started out as a natural disaster into a massive crime against humanity - probably the British Empire's greatest
None of these facts are in dispute, the only differences among historians is whether it was a deliberate act of genocide, ineptitude or cold, economically driven politicking.
You have not produced "another side of the argument" to "censor" or "suppress" - nobody disputes any of these facts, and you have ignored all but one of them which you put up a feeble defence for and have now reverted to your 'radio silence' on.
"Apart from defending myself from your abuse, my whole contribution would fit on one page."
Patently not true (want me to do a word count of our personal dispute here - happy to oblige?) - our inevitable arguments centre around accusations you have made against anybody who has opposed your - non-information - out--of-date, republican, revisionist, nationalist.
It is doubtful if your knowledge of the subject would fill a quarter of a page, but this hasn't stopped you from making over a hundred postings and dominating this thread with vaccuous nothings.`
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 04:10 AM


Far from adopting a neutral, 'Devil's advocate' stance you have rejected with contempt and accusation anybody who has put forward the established facts of the famine.

Not true.
All the contempt was from you.
Moron. Racist. Denier. Clown. Liar. Arsehole.....
I only quoted professional historians.

"Not all historians agree that Britain should be blamed."
Not true, otherwise produce one modern (or earlier) historian who has shown, or claims to have shown that:

I did.
You objected with a shit storm of personal abuse.
You do not want your preconceptions and prejudices challenged.

I will state my whole case again, and if you do not attack me again, I am done.

Many historians find that Britain should not be blamed.
Dr. Christine K stated, quoting others , that such historians were "dominant" and had been since 1930.

I make no claim myself.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 07:42 AM

and your flag-waving nationalism has been pointed out to you by several people.

Not true.
Mayomick said "patriotism" and that is all.

Neither of you can justify the accusation.
It is false.
If not produce a quote.
The most rabidly nationalistic and flag wagging quote you can find.

I say you can not.
Just more unfounded personal abuse in lieu of actual debate.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 10:05 AM

There you go – now I'm done, wasted far too much time on this shit.
My thanks to Grumpy who introduced me to Christine Kenealy, a fine historian I had never heard of.
Jim Carroll

"Since that is the dominant view of historians and has been for over 80 years, that seemed a reasonable thing to do."

2Please explain clearly why the dominant views of historians should not be even considered, and why you want them suppressed."

"I just saw the thread dominated by the discredited and outmoded nationalist version of history and gave three very brief extracts that reflect the revisionist view that has been the dominant view of historians these last eighty years."

"The professional historians, who have dedicated their whole lives to the study of all the data and contemporary sources from the period, are quite clear that your old, outmoded nationalist propagandist stories are false."

"Jim, we have seen from the links provided by your supporters that the dominant view of professional historians is not one of blame.
That old discredited nationalist version was buried eighty years ago."

"His nationalist view we know, thanks to your supporters, has been rejected by actual historians for over eighty years now."

"Historians are clear that there is no-one to blame for the famine.
I think we should heed the real historians?
Coogan and the cult fraudster are not historians"


"We have seen that the dominant view among the real historians is that there is no blame and no cause for hatred.
Just sorrow."

"You need excuses and justification for your prejudice, and if eighty years of consensus is not enough for you, you are destined to die still loathing us."

"So Jim favours the "nationalist" version of the famine.
No surprise there Jim, but why should we ignore the views of modern historians who rufute it?"

"All historians agree it was catastrophic for Ireland.
The old "nationalist" historians regarded the English as being uniquely uncaring and the Irish as uniquely the victims.

"Revisionist" historians challenge the view that England was culpable"

"So Jim favours the "nationalist" version of the famine.
No surprise there Jim, but why should we ignore the views of modern historians who rufute it?
Again, what is your opinion as a historian worth?"

"For all I know, but it is hard to dismiss all the modern historians who have formed a different view."
"Were you not aware that "revisionist" historians do not accept the view that "nationalist" historians have for so long regarded as objective truth."

"I find there is an old traditional version of famine history, and a version that modern historians have put in its place.
It says little for your scholarship that you were not even aware of that dichotomy, never mind the accepted terms for the 2 sides of the rift."

"True I claim no specialist knowledge, but I have read some that are eminent and well respected historians who dispute your old nationalist history"

"That is the version of history that was exclusively given in this thread, apart from my 3 short extracts, even though historians have recognised for over eighty years now that it is false."

"You believe a lie, not according to me, but according to the profession of historians who have dedicated their whole lives to uncovering the truth of this.
You believe a lie pedalled by fanatical nationalists for their own political purposes."

"The professional historians who are, overwhelmingly do not agree with you and Coogan."

"The quotes produced on this thread indicated that most historians believe that the government was not responsible for the deaths."

AND LAST AND MOST DISGUSTING.
"It seems that generations of Irish schoolchildren have been brainwashed with false history presenting Britain as "villain."
Poisoning children's minds with hatred has cost many lives and much misery and it still goes on."

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 02:56 PM

Can't distract you with Oliver Twist, eh?

To reiterate a point I made early on in this thread, Britain put their own lower class through much suffering and then you have historians like this one who calls anybody who says so "pessimistic."

http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/the-industrial-revolution-working-class-po

"Writers such as Dickens, Engels, and the Hammonds have made the terms industrial revolution and capitalism synonymous with degradation of the working class. Pessimistic interpretations of the industrial revolution..."

So Dickens was "pessimistic"? What's this pessimistic? These things either happened or they didn't. Dickens put what he saw was happening around him into a novel. Many more people learned about what it was to be a poor orphan during that time than if he had merely written a history book. Oliver Twist changed a lot of minds and hearts.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 02:18 AM

"Britain put their own lower class through much suffering"
One of the direct results of the Famine on British workers was the exploitation of the famine refugees by unscrupulous employers who used them as scab labour to drive down wages and worsen conditions of their employees.
When MacColl, Seeger and Charles Parker were recording actuality in South Wales for the Radio Ballad, The Big Hewer, they found lingering anti-Irish resentment from a number of older miners dating back to the time when fleeing Famine victims were forced by their situation to take the jobs of striking miners who were fighting planned cuts in wages. Songs like 'Blackleg Miners' remain as reminders of these times.
One of my favourite novels of the period, 'North and South', by Mrs Gaskell, has "Irish starvelings" being used to break the strike at a cotton mill in Northern England.
Harrowing descriptions of the conditions of the Irish refugees can be found in a series of essays, 'The Irish in Victorian Britain', edited by Roger Swift and Sheridan Gillie (Four Courts Press, 1999)
"Dickens put what he saw was happening around him into a novel"
He also wrote a number of essays on the Irish in Britain and on his visits to Ireland in the 1850s, see 'Charles Dickens in Ireland - an Anthology' (Woodfield Press in association with RTE, 1999) .
The Famine produced numerous songs on emigrations, one of the finest, still in circulation being 'Seven of Our Irishmen' which describes a fight in New York between a group of Irish refugees who had been tricked into enlisting "to defend this counteree" and a recruiting party of a dozen soldiers.

SEVEN OF OUR IRISHMEN,
All you that love the shamrock green, attend both young and old,
I feel it is my duty these lines for to unfold
Concerning these young emigrants that lately sailed away
To seek a better livelyhood all in Americay,

On the fourteenth day of April our gallant ship set sail
With fifty-five young Irishmen, true sons of Granuale.
They landed safe all in New York on the fourteenth day of May
To meet their friends and relatives all in Americay,

Some of them made aquaintences as soon as they did land,
With flowing bumpers drank a health to poor old Paddy's land.
Though many of them they had no friends but their hearts were stout and bold,
And by these cursed Yankees they would not be controlled.

As seven of our Irish boys were going down Georges Street
One of these Yankee gentlemen they happened for to meet,
He promised them employment in a brickyard near the town,
To which they were conducted, their names for to put down.

He brought them to an alehouse were he called for drinks galore,
And sure, such entertainment they never got before,
For when he thought he had them drunk he this to them did say,
"You're enlisted now as soldiers to defend this countee,

They looked at one another and this to him did say,
"It's not to 'list that we did come in to Americay,
But to labour for a livelyhood as many have done before
That we have emigrated from that lovely shamrock shore,"

Twelve Yankees then in soldiers dress they came without delay
And said, "Me boys, you must prepare with us to come away,
For this is our Yankee officer who's enlisted you complete,
You need not strive for to resist, we will no longer wait."

Their Irish blood began to boil, one of these heroes said,
"We only have one life to lose, therefore we're not afraid,
Although we be from Ireland, today we'll let you see,
We'll die like sons of Granuale or keep our liberty,"

Our Irish boys got to their feet which made the Yankees frown.
As fast as they could strike a blow they knocked a soldier down,
The officer and all his men lay bleeding in their gore,
They proved themselves St. Patrick's men throughout Columbia's shore,

You'd think it was a slaughterhouse there where those Yankees lay,
The officer and all his men they all did run away,
With bloody heads and broken bones they minded evermore
That sprig of sweet shilleleigh that was brought from Erin's shore,

Now to conclude and finish' let irishmen unite,   
And together hand in hand, both morning noon and night
Let's hope they're free from danger when they are far away
And they will earn good living when they're in Americay.

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 07:05 AM

I like that. You said you were originally from Liverpool right? That's pretty ethnically mixed like most major seaports isn't it? I know that three of the Beatles have Irish in their backgrounds. Does that describe you also?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 08:32 AM

Reminiscent of Arthur McBride.
Those emigrants were sturdy.
Not starvelings of the famine.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 03:19 PM

" Does that describe you also?"
Hi Susan.
What - do I wear a collarless jacket and hang out with Maharishis?
I certainly am 3rd or 4th generation Irish - not sure which.
I left Liverpool in the mid 1960s because I hated football and the Beatles bored me (and still do.
Another song from the period, based on a real-life incident.
Historically Michael Hayes was a Tipperary farmer and a bailiff with an iffy reputation for his behaviour at evictions.
Eventually he was dismissed from his work as a bailiff as being considered too old for the job, and in classic 'biter bit' style, in 1862, was evicted from his land.
He walked into the land agents office in Queenstown, Cork, shot him dead and took to his heels and embarked on a bid for freedom pursued by the police- Hayes was said to have died of .
On the basis that anybody who shot a landlord or his land agent could be forgiven all his former sins, the folk elevated him into the realms epic legend.
In reality the chase centered around Limerick and Tipperary and probably ended with Hayes dying of cold and hunger on the slopes of Slievnamon, but the folk have it as taking place from Tipperary to Wexford and around the coast to Castlebar in County Mayo - a total distance of 918 miles in straight lines between the towns mentioned.
Folklore has it that he embarked on board ship to America, but contacted TB there and returned to die in his native Tipperary.
I believe this to be a truly remarkable ballad which, along with songs like Skibbereen, reflect a return to the spirit of rebelliousness following the degradation and horror of the Famine, evictions and forced emigrations.
They are an indication of a determination to obtain independence; "Hayes" appeared five years before the 1867 rebellion, followed by the fight for Home Rule which eventually led to Easter week and the War of Independence.
We recorded it from Tom Lenihan of Miltown Malbay, who called it 'The Fox Chase' - he appears to be the sole traditional source, though we recorded a verse from Traveller Mikeen McCarthy, who remembered it fronm the singing of his father, who's family was from Tipperary.
Tom can be heard singing it on Tom Munnelly's selection of his songs songs, 'Mount Callan Garland' and it should be available for public access when our collection of Clare recordings goes on line on the Ennis Library website of traditional music, some time towards the end of the year.
Jim Carroll

Farmer Michael Hayes.

I am a bold and undaunted fox that never was before on tramp,
My rent, rates and taxes I was willing for to pay,
I lived as happy as king Saul and loved my neighbours great and small,
I had no animosity for either friend or foe,

I made my den in fine good land between Tipperary and Knocklong,
Where my forefathers lived for three hundred years or more,
But now of late I was betrayed by one who was a fool or knave,
He told me I should quit the place and show my face no more.

But as soon as he evicted me, I thought, 'twas time that I should flee,
I stole away his ducks and geese and murdered all his drakes,
I knew I could no longer stand because he had the hounds at hand,
I tightened up my garters and then I was away.

But soon there was a great look-out by land and sea to find me out,
From Dublin quay to Belfast Town along the raging sea,
By telegraph they did insert this great reward for my arrest,
My figure, size and form (forearm) and my name without a doubt.

They wore their brogues, a thousand pair, this great reward for to
But still there was no tidings of me or my retreat,                     
They searched Tipperary o'er and o'er, the cornfields round
But they si went on to Wexford, but there did not delay.

Through Ballyhale and Stranmore they searched the woods as they went on,
Till they got very hungry at the approach of day.
Now search the world both far and near, the likes before you did not
A fox to get away so clear as I did from the hounds.                              

They searched the rocks, the gulfs, the bays, the ships and liners at the quays,
The ferryboats and steamers as they were going to sea,
Around the coast they took a steer from Poolbeg lighthouse to Cape
Killarney Town and Sweet Tralee, and then crossed into Clare!

And when they landed on the shore they searched Kilrush from top to toe,
The bathing baths in Miltown, called otherwise Malbay,      
And Galway being a place of fame they thought it there I would
But still there journey was in vain for I gave them leg bail

They searched the train at Oranmore as she was leaving for Athlone,
And every waggon, coach and car as that went along the road,
And Connemara being remote, they thought it there I would resort,
Then when they got weary they resolved to try Mayo.

In Balinrobe they had to rest until the hounds were quite refreshed,
From thence they went to Westport and searched it high and low,
To Caslebar they took a trot, they heard I was in Castlerock,
But still they were delude, there I lodged the night before*,

At Swinford Town as I sat down I heard a dreadful cry of hounds.
I took another notion to retaliate the chase,
And I being weary from the road I took a glass at half past four,
Then I was renovated while the hounds were getting weak,

The night being dark in Castlebar, I knew not how to make my way,
I had neither den nor manger to shield me from the cold,
But when the moon began to shine I said I'd make for a foreign
I'm in the land of liberty and three cheers for Michael Hayes,

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 04:28 PM

I believe this to be a truly remarkable ballad which, along with songs like Skibbereen, reflect a return to the spirit of rebelliousness following the degradation and horror of the Famine, evictions and forced emigrations.
They are an indication of a determination to obtain independence;

What origin do you have for Skibbereen Jim?
Is it pre 20C ?

That last sentence is a big leap in the dark, I think.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 05:29 AM

My impression is that songs "of a determination to obtain independence" did exist pre 1916, but quite rare.

I can not see it in those last two.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mayomick
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 08:18 AM

It reminds me of Lyncheahun ,Jim.
I'm Lynchahaun ,I'm Lynchehaun , I'm just your very man.
I'm Lynchahaun I'm Lynchehaun, come catch me if you can.

They seek me here they seek me there , they seek me through the land
But I was with them searching for the famous Lynchehaun

A cattleman from Mayo was taken for me twice
while I was laughing at the foe and that was very nice
and then as well, down in Clomell they spied a railroad man
They stopped the train but all in vain
For here was Lynchahaun

They seek me high they seek me low, they seek me far and near
And every place I leave behind , I write Lynchahaun was here

..............
"It was almost a decade since Agnes MacDonnell and the Valley House had made national and international headlines when the landowner was brutally attacked and her home set on fire on the night of 6 October 1894. James Lynchehaun was convicted of the crime in Castlebar Court in 1895 and sentenced to life imprisonment."

http://www.theirishsto

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 08:52 AM

Thanks for that Mick.
Coincidentally, I knew nothing of this incident until a couple of months ago when I stumbled across a copy of 'The Veiled Woman of Achill' in a local charity shop - haven't got round to reading it yet.
There were many hundreds of documented incidents such as this, and many more undocumented ones that have survived in oral tradition.
The killing of William Clements, Lord Leitrim, (the landlord who was said to have practiced Droit du seigneur - the putative legal right allowing the lord of a medieval estate to take the virginity of his serfs' maiden daughters) probably being the best known.
I find it amusing that, to this day the BBC have a recording of a ballad of his assassination by one of Ireland's finest traditional singers which their index notes as being "scurrilous" and will only allowed to be played with special permission - and it's the Irish who are described as "bearing grudges".
Would very much appreciate some for information on the song.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mayomick
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 09:07 AM

It is those cruel English laws that blight our native isle
Must Erin's sons live always slaves or else die in exile?
There's not a hand in all the land to strike for liberty
Since Leitrim's lord like a dog was shot , not far from Glenswilly

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 10:58 AM

Don't think I've come across that one Mick.
I find I have 15 variations on the theme - yours may well be among them, but if not, I'll add what you sent
The version that bears the 'S' number in the BBC(may well stand for 'secret'), is the one recorded from Thomas Moran of Leitrim.
I used this and a 'lament' type version in a talk I once gave on song and history - lovely contrast in approach to the subject.
I'd give my right arm for a decent recording of the other, sung at a live concert my a great singer, Thomas Creamer.
One of the legends connected with the killing was that one of the assassins was 'Rory of the Hill' who was a victim of Clements' 'Droit du seigneur" when his wife was lawfully 'broken in' by 'is Lordship on their wedding night.
Jim Carroll

Lord LEITRIM
Thomas Moran, Mohill, Leitrim

O you boys of the shamrock, give ear to my ditty.
Be alive to your duty, be wise and be witty.
You keep your powder dry and we'll make the tyrants fall,
And we'll give them what Lord Leitrim got up there in Donegal.
To me whack fol the dero, fol the riddle dee.

It being on All Fools' Day the debaucher left his den,
Leaving gamblers, bums and harlots in his castle of Lough Lynn.
To make his men courageous he gave a hellish call,        
Crying:   "We'll tumble all the cabins up in County Donegal 1"

'Twas but a few hours after, old Meehan he did say:
"Oh, my lord, I feel a horror we'll meet Rory on the way.
"His lordship then made answer in the presence of Kincaid, Saying:
"Of Rory or the devil, sure, I never was afraid."

On the second day of April the old viper passed this way
Till he came to Gortha Wood at an angle of the sea.
There stood Rory of the Hill, who never feared a ball,
To protect the decent widows in the County Donegal.

When Rory saw them coming, sure, his heart did jump for glee.
He cried: "Three cheers for Tenants' Rights, Home Rule and liberty!"
And then as he approached them he made a low salute,
Saying: "Where are you going today, you stinking ugly Orange brute?"

Oh, this monster's face began to foam, his venom he did spew,
And he roared out in a hellish tone: " Come tell me, who are you?"
"Well, my lord, I'm Rory, That makes you welcome all
To a bloody dose of bullet pills up here in Donegal. "

"Spare us our lives," says Meehan, "Bold Rory, if you please."
"Oh no, for if you lie with dogs you're sure to rise with fleas."
The gay boys behind the wall, oh, they was laughing at the joke,
Saying: "Today we'll blow this bugger off with powder, ball and smoke."

"Come, all my boys," says Rory, "Make ready, present and fire!"
At his lordship's brain they took aim and hurled him in the mire.
"Upon my word," says Rory, "Wasn't that a splendid crack,
To see Lord Leitrim, Meehan and Kincaid all a-tumbling on their back? "

This old degrading viper deep down in the mire did crawl,
Calling, bawling, cursing God and the boys of Donegal.
To end the joke, his skull they broke and his carcase they did maul,
And in a pool they threw the fool up there in Donegal,

"Well done, my boys," says Rory, as he turned to the sea,
And they got in their little boat that calm at anchor lay.
They paddled their own canoe and they got a speedy shawl*,
And "Hurrah, my boys," says Rory, "For the girls of Donegal!"

Oh, the polismen like beagles gathered round this dirty beast,
And the devils all, both great and small, they had a sumptuous feast.
The haled him down in hell like a bullock in a stall,
And the devils ate him, rump and stump, that night in Donegal.
To me whack fol the dero, fol the riddle dee.

* Several versions concur that the word is "shawl ". Its sense eludes me. Perhaps it has special local meaning?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mayomick
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 12:39 PM

there's a mudcat link with a similar Glen Swilly verse here, Jim . thread.cfm?threadid=42118

One of his assassins was identified as having distinctive red hair according to a story I heard about Lord Leitrim, which I haven't been able to verify. The authorities rounded up locals the next morning to find that every man had shaved off his hair. They all kept their heads shaved until independence.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 12:59 PM

"One of his assassins was identified as having distinctive red hair"
I seem to remember that was 'Rory' - name fits the colour.
"....every man had shaved off his hair."
Latter day Croppies!
There's an excellent little booklet (134 pages) entitled the Third Earl of Leitrim by local (Donegal) man Liam Dolan (1978) which may still be floating around - we used to have two copies but gave one away, otherwise you would have been welcome to it.
We do have an article about the Ballad by AL Lloyd, and numerous other bits and pieces, which you are welcome to copies of - if so, PM me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 02:49 PM

The full story of the shooting and the assassins is given here.
http://www.loughrynn.net/id41.htm

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:58 AM

So Keith, does this Droit du seigneur fall under "general treatment of tenants"? What a ghastly thing. I first learned about it from watching Braveheart. I was sitting there saying, "You've got to be kidding me! Who ever thought of such a cruel thing?"

Jim, you didn't even like McCartney's song, "Give Ireland Back to the Irish"? It was banned in Britain if you recall. The Liverpool accent always sounds like the speaker is slightly bored :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 07:31 AM

So Keith, does this Droit du seigneur fall under "general treatment of tenants"?
No such right existed.
If true it was an abuse of his position.

He was a tyrant.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 08:52 AM

Susan,
Sorry – find the Bea(s)tles unbelievably bland – would send me to sleep if it wasn't for their their pseudo American – cum – watered-down Scouse didn't irritate me so much
Droit du seigneur was claimed to the common practice of in rural Ireland English Landlords, "surpassed only by Tsarist Russia" by
Jim Carroll

Quinn and Droit du seigneur ~ Quinn, The Lord of IT and Life is beyond the law.
Posted on August 27, 2012 by dialogueireland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_du_seigneur

The French expression Droit du seigneur roughly translates as "right of the lord", but native French prefer the terms droit de jambage ("right of the leg") or droit de cuissage ("right of the thigh"), in reference to the exercise of this supposed right. The term is often used synonymously with jus primae noctis which is Latin for "law of the first night".
A few days ago I was talking to a person who was telling me without thinking about it that Quinn thought from the earliest days that he had Droit du seigneur. This led me back to 1988 when I met a very beautiful woman who had done the massage course and observed that Quinn would have liked to have exercised the ("right of the thigh"), with her. To protect her anonymity put it this way if her partner had heard about it Quinn would have had a contract put out on him. Quinn did not practice this in the original sense of the "law of the first night" but in the sense that he had the right to have any woman he wished regardless if she was married, engaged or a virgin at any stage but usually when he could control the milieu. It was not always him who exercised this right, other males around him also did this and he was in some cases second in line. He regarded himself as not being above the law but beyond the law. This person who told me this was so conditioned he did not in any way think it strange that this was type of stuff happened. Added to this was the fact that in his early days he was able to use his Jesus Christ aura to mystify women and get them to go places they were unable to resist.
http://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2011/12/15/the-origins-of-tony-quinn-at-templeogue-house/


We have alluded to a woman who was involved with sex magic who has been affected psychologically since the early seventies. I have interviewed her personally and will publish her story when it does not harm her in any way. I have a witness who was present the next morning and heard how frightened Quinn was of retaliation.
Recently and in conversations with women and in the comment section these issues have been alluded to.
If any one has flash backs about this and taking into account what is been written about the guilt and the fear you have about speaking about this, do contact us and we can put you in touch with women who can travel with you.
http://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2012/08/27/quinn-and-droit-du-seigneur-quinn-the-lord-of-it-and-life-is-beyond-the-law/

Arthur Young was born in London worked at Kings Lynn. He wrote widely on social matters in England and France and travelled extensively. His book ,"A Tour in Ireland" in 1780 was highly acclaimed. He criticised heavily the landlord class and sympathised with the plight of the lower and working classes. All this evoked much debate . He claimed that 'droit du seigneur' was commonplace in rural areas of Ireland at that time. For the first time the focus was on rural life in Ireland, rather than on that of Dublin.
http://www.colaiste-na-ngael.com/iris6/answers.html

But nowhere, except probably Tsarist Russia, was the droit du seigneur practised more openly and brutally than in Ireland. In Ireland the landed aristocrats were backed by the English army of occupation, and enjoyed the rights of conquerors as well as the old feudal rights of great land-owning aristocrats.
http://www.ricorso.net/rx/az-data/authors/m/Molloy_MJ/life.htm

Young went on to describe how some landlords were sexually abusing Irish women over whom they had power: 'Landlords of consequence have assured me that many of their cottiers would think themselves honoured by having their wives or daughters sent for to the bed of their masters, a mark of slavery that proves the oppression under which such people live.'[17] This was reminiscent of the times in ancient Britain when nobles had enacted laws like jus primae noctis (right of the first night), which gave them the right to have sexual intercourse with a woman serf on her wedding night - and the medieval custom of droit du seigneur which allowed the feudal barons to do the same. Young showed how similar practises - and worse - were going on in Ireland towards the end of the 18th century.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 11:10 AM

But nowhere, except probably Tsarist Russia, was the droit du seigneur practised more openly and brutally than in Ireland. In Ireland the landed aristocrats were backed by the English army of occupation, and enjoyed the rights of conquerors as well as the old feudal rights of great land-owning aristocrats

"army of occupation" is Tosh.
It was one nation.
Half the army was Irish.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 01:53 PM

'Nuther black hole that's been plumbed to its limits
Bye Keith
Jim Carloll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 03:25 AM

What Jim?

Droit du seigneur was never customary in England, but it was rife in medieval Ireland.
You can not blame it on the English, but some people always will.

I said that pre 20C songs about British rule are rare.
The Glenswilly song is one such, the author being an activist.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 03:42 AM

"but it was rife in medieval Ireland." - practiced almost exclusively by English landlords - including landed gentry.
"I said that pre 20C songs about British rule are rare."
You could fill several dozen shelves with pre-20th century songs about British rule - more than a shelf of these would be of the 1798 rebellion alone - go read a book!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: MartinRyan
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 04:06 AM

Mind you, most of the common "1798 songs" were written for the centenary.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 04:26 AM

True Martin, but the point remains, political songs about Irish struggle date back centuries, many of them never moving further than the towns and villages were the incidents took place
These remain largely unpublished and would make a study on their own - fancy the job?
Best
Jim

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 05:56 AM

So, not well known songs then Jim.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: MartinRyan
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 08:18 AM

Political songs about Irish struggle date back centuries, many of them never moving further than the towns and villages were the incidents took place

I know of no evidence for this, pre-20th century. Broadsheet ballads and songs/poems-set-to-music published by those associated with various political movements (Young Ireland, Fenianism etc.) - certainly; songs written in exile, yes. The tradition of local accounts of local events I associate with the War of Independence, Civil War and subsequent events.

Can you think of a few examples of what you mean, Jim?

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 09:59 AM

"I know of no evidence for this, pre-20th century"
Sorry Martin, can't possible agree.
Places like Miltown have literary hundreds of songs (still in existence) that have been made throughout the 20th century and have never moved from the area because of their parochial nature - not only do I see no reason why this has not always been the case, but I believe that much of our national repertoire has come from such local events, but have 'slipped under the wire' and taken root elsewhere (rather than having been made by 'hacks' as some people would have us believe.
I believe that this 'desire to record'is very much a part of what we are - where .
Would be delighted to discus this with you - here or over a pint
Best Jim

Keith
"pre-20C songs about British rule are rare."
Boolalavoge, The Croppy Boy, Kelly From Killane, Rising of the Moon, Who Fears to Speak, The Suit of Green, The Kerry Recruit, Dunlavin Green, Bold Fenian Men, Manchester Martyrs, My Old Fenian Gun, Rody McCorley, General Munroe, Billy Byrne of Ballymanus, Shan Van Vocht, Patrick Sheehan, God Save Ireland.... and that' just off the top of my head - are you completely insane? All of these can still be heard in any singaround and drunken boozy session anywhere – both sides of the Irish Sea and beyond.
These songs and hundreds more make up a significant percentage of the Irish repertoire, in England as well as in Ireland and are a small part of a greater number not generally sung, but well documented.
These do not include the ones I mentioned that have not been fully documented because they deal with the many local events that took place during the centuries long period of English occupation – and I haven't even mentioned the Protestant repertoire which deals with British rule from the other side of the fence.
If you are so unaware of this at to make a crass statement such as you have just made, why get involved to the extent you do – it's certainly not to learn anything – you don't read what people write
Maybe it's to show that British rule was accepted and welcomed wherever the flag flew maybe? That is the dominant message in all your postings
We've just been debating a country-wide tragedy that proves beyond doubt that it wasn't.
I tried to revive this thread by bringing in songs that I believed to be relevant to the subject – Susan and Mick obliged and I thought it might work, but there you go again – making the crassest of crass statements on a subject you obviously know nothing whatever about.
Once again your limpet-like stranglehold has sent yet an attempt to prevent yet another thread from crashing in flames.
Why do you do this – why do you deeply involve yourself in intense debates, dominate them and then finally admit (hide behind) your self-confessed ignorance - do you hate this forum so much?
Trying to debate on a serious topic when you are around is like trying to have a conversation in the presence of a fractious, attention-seeking infant.
Again our sterile bickering has driven away people who have a genuine interest in an important subject
I would like to deeply apologise to those who would liked to have continued with this subject from doing so because they been driven away by our childish bickering – I would like think you will do the same – but you won't – you simply don't do that sort of thing.
I would also like to think it won't happen again – it probably will.
Apologies to all – for now, and the next time, and the next time...... it happens.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: MartinRyan
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 10:13 AM

Jim

I agree completely about 20th C. - of course. I simply make the point that I know of no evidence of a similar tradition before that. The list you supply for Keith largely reinforces my basic point, being largely polemical ballads written and published for mass consumption.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 11:09 AM

and that' just off the top of my head - are you completely insane?
Not me.
Croppy Boy is about Civil War post 1916.
Bold Fenian Men is post 1916.
Rising of the Moon already mentioned.

That is off the top of my head.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 11:14 AM

Kerry Recruit is in no way about "determination to obtain independence."

Take another look at your list Jim.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: MartinRyan
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 11:40 AM

Keith

Croppy Boy is about Civil War post 1916.
Bold Fenian Men is post 1916.

Wrong on both counts.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 12:12 PM

Woah. Hang on a minute. It's true that The Bold Fenian Men comes from around 1916, because that's roughly when Peadar Kearney wrote it. But which Croppy Boy are you on about? There is actually two entirely different songs with that title.

One was written I believe by an Irish poet named William B. McBurney, aka Carroll Malone, in 1845. That's the one which concerns a confession given by a Croppy to a priest who turns out to be an English army captain. In any event, it predates 1916 by 71 years.

Regarding the other CB. Zimmerman, Songs of Irish Rebellion prints several broadside texts, all of them undated unfortunately, but we can say without equivocation that it was in print long before 1916.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: MartinRyan
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 01:00 PM

McBurney's dates are b. 1855 d. 1892.
I assumed the "Bold Fenian Men" was that of Michael Scanlon (1836-1900).

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 03:09 PM

I only knew the Paedar Kearney Bold Fenian Men.
The one they sing in that John Ford, John Wayne cavalry film.
Sorry.
I have been looking back at our discussion of this in 2008.
You joined in too Jim. Remember?

Thanks Fred.
I was sure I had heard of a Croppy Boy from the Civil War.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 03:17 PM

Keith - I have no intention of continuing your attention seeking game, particularly as you haven't even bothered to acknowledge my comments on your serially-destructive behaviour on this forum - not even to deny it.
I see that someone else has expressed similar views on how you wreck thread after thread, as you have done here.
Without attempting to argue Martin's comments - I'm more than happy to bow to his superior knowledge on the couple of songs he pulled me up on - as I said, the list was off the top of my head - (of course I knew Bold Fenian men was wtitten by Kearney; some of my family were friends of the Behans - my uncle, Pat Hannen watched him run naked in the snow around the Arbout hill parade ground for a couple of cigarettes)
Fred is of course right about Croppy Boy (thank you Fred) and there more than enough pre 20th century songs to render any suggestion of their being "rare" absolutely hilarious.
Nuff said - go and say what you don't have to say to someone else - I really can't be arsed with you anymore.
Martin.
re your 'local songs comment' (I'm not sure this wouldn't be more usefully dealt with where there aren't any precocious children in the room (not you Fred)
As I said, we have recorded or otherwise gathered dozens of 20th century locally written songs here in West Clare over the last thirty years on all subjects from a railway train (no - not Percy French - same train though) to Rineen, (Miltown) and The Leon (Quilty) (four of each of those last two).
We have been told of earlier songs that date back into the nineteenth century though few of these survived the events (unless someone bothered to write it down) - the one about the Stackpole murder at Spaniish Point springs immediately to mind.
Nobody can argue that a sub-repertoire (local) existed from the beginning of the 20th century, and I can't possibly see how anybody could give a reason why one shouldn't have existed earlier - man, especially working man, has always had the desire to produce artistic representations of his experiences as far back as the cave paintings, and as far as vocalising those experiences poetically, we have no reason to believe that he/she didn't do this as well.
I confess I found this 'sub-repertoire' a total revelation - I never came across it in Britain to any significant extent, though I now believe it existed in abundance, but didn't spread because it had no relevance outside the immediate areas. Nor was it 'collected' because it didn't line up with the know 'folk' repertoire.
Irish and Scots Travellers (and some English) were still making specifically 'Traveller' songs right into the 1970s
Folk song scholarship emerged in an organised form in Britain in 1899. As far as I am able to find, there are no major published collections of songs in Ireland apart from those published in The Irish Folksong Journal (early 1900s) and I'm not sure how representative of what was sung around they were.
The point I am making in my long-winded way is that we have nothing to gauge what was sung from what was gathered
I'm aware of of the work of McCall and Bunting, et al.
We have no idea what was made and sung locally prior to the beginning of the 20th century, but there I believe it can be stated with certainly that something certainly was - there was no reason whatever that rural bards with their protest songs suddenly sprang out of the bushes in 1916.
By the way - whoever mentioned it, John K Casey's ('Leo's') 'The Rising of the Moon' along with several other songs of Irish rebellion was published in 1869.
Sorry this is so rambling Martin - Liverpudlians aren't very good at multi-tasking
A pint sometime maybe?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 03:21 PM

"You joined in too Jim. Remember?"
As I pointed out and apologised for - your turn (in my dreams!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: MartinRyan
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 03:50 PM

Keith
Re The Croppy Boy : I suspect you're thinking of The Galtee Mountain Boy.

Jim
That there was a sub-repertoire in that sense, I have no doubt - especially in areas where opportunities for singing/music were regular. But speculation as to what it consisted of, or how strong it was, is idle without evidence. They were probably as eclectic as some of those among whom you've done such excellent work. Extrapolating the post 1916 republican fervour backwards in a popular (as distinct from polemic) musical context just doesn't make sense without some evidence.

Regards

p.s. A pint or two would certainly help to tease out the problem - you planning on Frank Harte Festival this year? ;>)>

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 04:11 PM

Jim, you had no cause to apologise.
It was not bickering.
We compared historians' views of the famine.
I understand and respect that it is an emotive subject and an horrific event.
I had to challenge your statement, "I believe this to be a truly remarkable ballad which, along with songs like Skibbereen, reflect a return to the spirit of rebelliousness following the degradation and horror of the Famine, evictions and forced emigrations.
They are an indication of a determination to obtain independence; "

Would you make that statement again?

Not trying to argue.
I am not in your league on the songs.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 08:21 PM

" musical context just doesn't make sense without some evidence."
What evidence can there possibly be Martin, apart from the evidence that we have to hand you can't prove a 150 year old negative. The same applies to present claims that virtually all (92%) of our folk songs originated on the broadside presses because the printed versions to hand predate the oral ones - this was before any serious collecting was ever carried out prior to 1899 - no evidence because there was no reason that there ever should be.
It flies in the face of reason that people suddenly where making songs by their hundreds (in Miltown) in the 20th century, yet didn't a decade or so earlier.
I still find myself reeling at the number of songs that we have learned about that have virtually no precedent in print or have never been found elsewhere, almost certainly because of their local nature.
Do you know any other versions of The Rineen Ambush (four separate versions here) The Wreck of the Leon (1 version in currency, 1 reported but not recorded and two hand written, framed and hanging in the porch of Quilty Church)
Everbody knows French's 'Are you Right There Michael' - I've never come across Straighty Flanagan's 'West Clare Railway' elsewhere.
Our late neighbour 'Paddy Mac' used to call in on Sunday evenings on his cuirdh (spelling?) and invariably would bring a tatty sheet of paper bearing a local song, 'The Drunken Bear' springs to mind, (a local reprobate who was barred out of every pub in Miltown when he went on a spree).... or further afield - The Bobbed Hair ,dating back to a hairstyle popular in the 1920s and apparently originating in the Corofin area
We included over half a dozen of these on the albums we compiled - 'Paddy's Panacea' and 'Around the Hills of Clare' - we rejected twice as many good ones because we realised they would not make sense to anybody who wasn't from here.
There was a half-serious attempt to compile a booklet of these for the forthcoming 'Gathering' - god save us from the ghosts of our ancestors!!'
I know these are all 20th century examples, but most of them are not part of political upheavals or national events - just the desire to set out experiences, feelings - etc. poetically and pass them on, even if only for a short time.
Shouldn't have started this at this time of night - I'll never get to sleep now - where's the whiskey bottle?
We are hoping to get to the Frank Harte weekend and almost certainly will be at Knockroughery - will see you somewhere before too long, no doubt.
Best to Josephine
Jim

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 08:42 PM

Jim, did you know that Keith is getting married this Saturday? Cease fire!

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 03:30 AM

Jim

I have absolutely no problem with your long-championed argument as to the importance of local composition of song – though the situation in Ireland is clearly complicated by the late switch to English as first language and the late arrival of mass education. What I AM sceptical of, in the absence of evidence, is the suggestion that there was a significantly political content in such work. As implied earlier, I think that the undoubted flowering of such composition through the twentieth century may well have been triggered by the rapid expansion of nationalism post-1916. The huge emphasis on school teaching of the more polemic nineteenth century songs (both in Irish and English) in the National Schools post-independence will have provided a good seedbed thereafter. They were still at it when I started school in 1950!

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 04:12 AM

You have the advantage over me there Martin - have struggled with an understanding of Irish language songs via Ian Lee's classes during the Willie Weeks, but like many other things in my life, it's something I should have paid more attention to much earlier.
Having said that, English has been a part of Irish culture for a long time now, after all "we've been together now for - 800 years"!!
Would very much like to know more of this.
My comments on political songs were not necessarily aimed at the 'ground level made ones anyway; much of the political material I am awae of were made by educated activists - Casey, for instance, who were writing them in English by the bucketful.
I haven't pursued the Northern situation either where a bi-lingual situation seems to have been far stronger for far longer.
Best
Jim

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 04:20 AM

much of the political material I am aware of were made by educated activists - Casey, for instance, who were writing them in English by the bucketful.

Exactly!

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 08:12 AM

Jim, consider this slightly modified point of view. And don't get mad at me.

I'm certain the peasant class of England suffered every bit as much as anyone affected by Great Britain's rise to imperial power worldwide. The sun never sets... That's why I keep bringing it up. I have said before and I will again that it's easier to accept mistreatment from a foreign entity than it is your own. The English peasants were driven from what had been common lands and herded into factories and used as slave labor. It was Tyburn for those who had other ideas. For centuries, the laws protecting property were prioritized over laws protecting persons (except persons of the upper class) but I'm sure you know all that.

The problem with memorials of genocide is that the cruelty and extermination is seldom confined to an exclusive target group and we miss the point by making it primarily an ethnic or political thing. For example, Jews may have been Hitler's most despised target but there were lesser targeted groups who suffered and died just as tragically. Still, you see many Jews who protect that most targeted status to the point where they don't really recognize the suffering of these other groups, especially if it is a group they can identify with the ethnicity or political status of the perpetrator.

I have seen the same thing with Ukrainians who don't recognize what the Soviets inflicted on ethnic Russians on Russian soil. And of course we see it with the Irish who feel especially targeted but who in the great scheme of things were probably not more so than other groups, South Africans for example. In most cases this special targeted status carries ethnocentric and nationalistic overtones which are not the highest purpose for remembering victims and what they endured. It is something rather that should speak to our humanity - individual and collective- without such pronounced political and
ethnic divisions.

And Cheers to Keith and his new bride! Mnohaya Lita! Many Years!

There are several versions of this song on youtube but this my favorite one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jo-FfSflLo

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 09:29 AM

Sorry Susan - I really can't for the life of me see what on earth any of this.
The root causes of the appalling consequences of the potato blight ("God sent the blight but England sent the Famine" John Mitchel) were British mismanagement, indifference and possible intent.
Where is that changed by anything you've written - shouldn't we not talk or try to understand The Holocaust, The Famine, Bosnia, Rwanda, Sabra/Shatila, and reaching some understanding, should we not place the blame where we believe it belongs, if for no other reason that to take steps to see it doesn't happen again
Please explain - or maybe not!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 08:57 PM

I grew up believing that the British had a special contempt for the Irish. That is how my Irish grandmother and Scot grandfather thought and I picked it up from them. But when I run across articles like the one below, I realize that the British had the same special contempt for any people they abused and exploited:

http://www.monbiot.com/2005/12/27/how-britain-denies-its-holocausts/

If we say that "the British" did all these things, who are we really talking. Do people necessarily have to own what their government does? I hope not because I'm not taking any of the blame for what those people in Washington are doing.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 03:39 AM

"If we say that "the British" did all these things, who are we really talking."
Them upstairs Susan - we're only 'the ants' as a barman once told me when I tried to buy a pint after closing time.
Thanks for the link - puts it in a nutshell really
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mayomick
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 10:59 AM

"I realize that the British had the same special contempt for any people they abused and exploited"
I'm sure that SJL doesn't mean that the British i.e. every English , Scot and Welsh person who has lived since the Act Of Union , had this special contempt for all races other than their own

A straw man argument gets thrown up against those who say that the British administration responsible for Irish affairs in mid-nineteenth Ireland should be held responsible for what happened in mid nineteenth century Ireland .It goes like this . "You whingers, why can't you forget your dreary steeples for once why do you hate us British ? I wasn't even born in the nineteen the century ,so don't blame me for the famine."

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 04:53 AM

"I wasn't even born in the nineteen the century ,so don't blame me for the famine."
Or - "you're only saying that because you're anti-British" - invariably delivered in "you- versus us" terms especially if you happen to have moved elsewhere (not forgetting the centuries old servant/master relationship)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 09:10 AM

I can't comment on the facts of the Irish famine, other than to say that my part-Irish ancestry is a result of it, with a pair of great-great-grandparents emigrating from Naas in Kildare to get work in England.

But a read of Hobsbawm & Rude's "Captain Swing" (for example) should be enough to make anyone realise the contempt in which English agricultural labourers were held by the 19th century English ruling classes. The rise of agricultural mechanisation meant that thousands of agricultural workers were unable to find work. The answer to all that was to change the Poor Laws and set up Union Workhouses in which the same workers were treated like criminals - and I have contemporary family letters from the 1830s which document this quite clearly. Finally, in an attempt to get rid of the problem, mass emigration to colonies like Canada and Australia was devised by the clergy and local squires in East Anglia. In 1837 alone, around 30,000 agricultural workers left the country - relations of my direct ancestors among them (again fully documented in contemporary letters) - thus ridding the squierarchy of the "problem".

My point is not thread drift here - but to give yet one more example of the contempt and indifference towards the unfortunates of the time on the part of the ruling classes. As in England, in Ireland - but worse.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 02:20 PM

Troubles in Belfast Jim as I'm sure you know. And this is where I just have to say:

"You love Britain that much, after all this time and everything that has happened? Then why don't you just get the hell out?!!! It was never yours to begin with."

No apology. No respect. Nothing.

I am pissed off, as in eyes welling up with tears pissed off.

Looks to me like the famine is far from over. Cannot be forgotten. Not yet. Not until certain people take responsibility.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 02:58 PM

"Then why don't you just get the hell out?!!!"
Sorry Susan - were in god's mane do you think I stand on all this/
I - my family as far back as I can discover, have supported Britain leaving Ireland - not from any nationalist or republican motive but a simple fact that when you draw a line across a country - any country bodies will continue to be brought home in black bags while that line remains.
By aunt and uncle (my father's sister and brother-in-law) fled Derry in the 1950s wheeling my cousin in his pram and leaving their entire possessions behind - driven out by anti-Catholic rioting thugs.
The present rioting - running from early last month, which has injured 50 police officers to date, is being carried out by Loyalist thugs who with to remain in Britain - as where the months long riots around the Christmas period were protests about the English Flag being taken down from Stormont.
Then, as now, the ploce have warned that "somebody is going to get killed if these thugs don't stop.
"Then why don't you just get the hell out?!"
Why don't "I" get out - for the same reason "ypu don't prevent your countryman from sticking lethal needles into (mainly black" prisoners in Texas, or why "you" describe the selling of lethal weapons to mass murderers as a "constitution right" - of course you don't - neither do I.
Are you sure you are addressing me - I thought the feller who defends what is happening in Belfast was getting married this weekend.
Tears are welling up in your eyes, - give us a break - tears have been welling up in mine for most of my life, around the "Glorious Twelfth" to be exact.
I sometimes wonder what life is like on the Planet Zog!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 05:28 PM

I'm not sure how you misunderstood me Jim. You're standing exactly where I expected you to be standing. I was saying that I'm right behind you. Maybe you didn't realize who I was addressing.

When this news broke, my Irish boyfriend (on mother's side) called me up and said, "Bono's head must be ready to explode." His favorite thing to say about Bono, well, there's actually two:

1.) "Bono, shut up and sing." And the other:

2.) "Can't say I've liked him a whole lot since he stopped being Irish."

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 03:36 AM

Sorry if I misunderstood Susan - sensitive point.
I sat with people here in the mid-West of Ireland in tears at the time of the Omagh bombing - inhuman, unnecessary, and totally beyond our control.
The most insultingly distressing of acts of inhumanity are those that are done 'on our behalf' by the people we elect and whose wages we pay.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 04:53 AM

Actually Jim, I was in the wrong to rattle on as if I understand what you're going through. I cannot really, because I haven't lived it. I'm very aware at this point that the hurt I feel over this situation is nothing compared to yours. But please know that I've been worrying about you and praying for you. You kept me up half the night, you blasted old fool.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 05:57 AM

Luckily we live in a place where almost everybody we meet is friendly, welcoming and a pleasure to be with - it's called Ireland - no suffering on our part - a little frustration and anger maybe .
Every place produces its particular breed of monsters, and usually even those monsters have a reason for being what they are - never went in for 'original sin'
As you rightly point out - The Famine + another 8 centuries of such events have a great deal to answer for.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 09:01 AM

It sounds as though things have quieted down over there. I don't know about a ban on peaceful rallies and so forth. Shutting people down never seemed like a real answer to me. IMO, the penalty should go to the people who caused the violence.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 08:18 PM

"It sounds as though things have quieted down over there"
Life seems to be as usual on the planet Zog
50 odd police officers is not "normal" anywhere.
These 'peaceful' marches are triumphal demonstrations of 'superiority' and always have been.
The people who caused the violence are those who organise the marches and demand they go through sensitive (Catholic) areas - never heard of the Glencree standoff?
Many of them, when they are prevented from going through these sensitive areas by the police, deliberately return through them to provoke violence
The Christmas 'Union Jack' demonstrations lasted for months and made the centre of Belfast a no-go area throughout the holiday period.
A large part of my apprenticeship was spent watching men who had been working together happily throughout the year, hurling bricks and bottles at each other to celebrate the Glorious Twelfth - our workplace was directly on the rout of one of your "peaceful rallies and so forth".
seems like only yesterday you had tears in your eyes for what was happening - oh - it was only yeateday
Are you really as unaware of what happens here as you appear to be or do you find it necessary to give the fire another poke in case it goes out - just like the march organisers.
What is it with you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 05:24 AM

"These 'peaceful' marches are triumphal demonstrations of 'superiority' and always have been."

That is just a perspective.
There are hundreds of them all over the North that are peaceful joyous events.

Should descendants of those who fought on the British side object to 4th July parades in America?
Of course not.
It is ancient history.

Protestant marching bands are participating in the All Ireland Fleadh this year, delighted that their musical culture is now recognised as such.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 05:27 AM

And, why was it demanded to stop the flag flying on public buildings, as in the Republic and most other places in the world?
Who doubted that extremists would use it to stir up trouble?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 10:53 AM

'Peaceful' protests and demonstrations
Have a good march!!
Jim

http://news.ie.msn.com/ireland/police-knocked-unconscious-by-rioters-%E2%80%98wielding-swords-and-missiles%E2%80%99-in-belfast-1

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20985521

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 01:22 PM

That was one out of hundreds.
They only wanted to parade.
Why do people so hate for them to just march and play?
And why did they have to change the flag thing?
Triumphalism?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 01:32 PM

"Why do people so hate for them to just march and play?"
They don't - I seem to remember it was your quote from a Republican leader that they had no problem with the vast majority of the marches which were well behaved, but the big aggressive ones in Derry and Belfast which were days out for thugs - want me to dig that one out for you or do you intend to just walk away from your own stupidity in contradicting both the facts of violent thuggish triumphalist ones which, according to the PSNI are "going to cause deaths if they are not controlled - and, of course, your own evidence.
Stop distorting the facts of what is happening - you stupid, stupid boy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 01:45 PM

"want me to dig that one out for you"
Yes please.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 01:51 PM

Not like this parade.
Not ancient history.
The victims are still grieved for by their families.
"If anyone wants to gauge the atmosphere between the two communities in the north of Ireland, despite relative peace and power sharing, they should come to Castlederg and check the social mercury levels. The reason they have dropped so far is a planned parade to commemorate two IRA men who blew themselves up transporting a bomb into the town almost 40 years ago."
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/blog/2013/aug/02/ira-men-northern-ireland-parade-castlederg

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 03:49 PM

"Yes please"
What – so you can ignore it and refuse to acknowledge it when I produce it, or so you can say you only put t up because Jack Straw told you to      I don't think so.
Tell you what I will do – you deny you ever did such a thing and make it worth my while by proving yourself a liar as well as an extremist fanatic.
Otherwise, find it yourself.
I'll give you a clue where to look – it's the thread on which you claimed that the troubles surrounding the marchers were all over and it was children who were to blame for the four days of violent rioting.
Should I have to go and look for it, I'll bring back quotes and links to that particular crassness with it.
In the meantime – your quote's informant's statement is echoed here by Gerry Adams

"Their comments come as a Stormont working group gets ready to report on "a new and improved framework" to rule on parades.
"There are over three thousand Orange marches in the north every year," Adams writes.
"Generally speaking they pass off without any great fuss, not least because of the tolerance of everybody else. There are a small number of contentious parades which for years caused considerable difficulties.
"One of the big problems incidentally touched on by a loyalist leader Jackie McDonald this week is that the Orange would march into an area where they were unwelcome and leave everybody else to deal with the consequences in the weeks and months afterwards."
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/gerry-adams-rejoins-the-debate-on-disputed-parades-28522221.html

I couldn't believe that you were so stupid as to reopen a thread on which you have already humiliated yourself and could only continue to do – you missed my birthday by a monthy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 04:46 PM

Just to be quite clear what's happening in Ireland at present
The unionists no longer represent the overall majority in (their bit of) Ulster - the never were the majority in the whole of the province but Britain gerrymandered the borders in order to leacve a protestant majority.
Since the Unionists have been losing their grip, the suggestion has been made that rather than the Union Jack being flown over Stormont, that the Ulster flag (far more 'historical than the U.J.) should fly here next to the Republican one.
The result has been violent and long term rioting by Unionist fanatical thugs to the extent that the Northern Ireland police have described it as life threatening.
This year's rioting was not between Loyalists and Nationalist, but between Orange thuggish morons and the police.
Even the recent Republican commemoration march passed off without any sign of trouble whatever, the only consequence being that an Ulster politician is considering suing the police for allowing it to happen.
The ongoing troubles have produced victims on all sides - from 90 years of anti-Catholic persecution, to the innocenrts killed from the last 'Troubles'
The Nationalist ascendency looks like the émpasse might have finally been broken and the violence ended - your 'Billy Boy' friends are not about to let that happen.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 05:13 PM

Sorrry missed a bit
Jim Carroll

WHEN THE UNION FLAG CAN FLY AT CITY HALL BUT NOT AT STORMONT
By Gareth GordonBBC NI political correspondent

Q. When is a designated day not a designated day?
A. When it's in Northern Ireland.
The union flag is once more flying over Belfast City Hall to mark the birthday of the Duchess of Cambridge, one of the days designated by the Department of Culture. Media and Sport in London.
However, no flag has been raised over Parliament Buildings at Stormont.
The Assembly is guided by the Flags (Northern Ireland) Order 2000.
"There are 15 designated days; the birthday of the Duchess of Cambridge is not currently on that list." said an Assembly spokesperson.
"Since 2002, in accordance with Assembly Commission policy, Parliament Buildings adheres to the Flags (Northern Ireland) Order 2000, amended by the Flags Regulation (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) 2002, which specify arrangements for the flying of the Union Flag from government buildings in Northern Ireland."
'Inconsistency'
A spokesperson for Belfast City Council said: "Stormont, and other government buildings in Northern Ireland, are governed by the Flags (Northern Ireland) Order 2000, which does not cover council buildings.
"The decision by Belfast City Council was to adopt the designated days as set by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport in Westminster as to the designated days for the flying of the union flag."
The Ulster Unionist Leader, Mike Nesbitt says he is seeking a meeting with the Secretary of State Theresa Villiers to ask her to address "this inconsistency."
He said: "It is a ridiculous situation that the union flag is being flown at full mast from Belfast City Hall today, but not at Stormont, because there is more than one agreed list of designated days.
"It appears Belfast City Hall goes with the designated day list published by the Department of Culture Media and Sport in London, which offers 18 designated days for Northern Ireland, while Stormont is governed by the list in the Flags Regulation Order of 2000. This had 17 days, but with the deaths of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother, and The Princess Margaret, we are down to 15 days."
But the TUV leader Jim Allister said it was "an absolute scandal" that unionists on the Assembly Commission had failed to ensure that the list of "designated days" was kept up to date.
"It seems obvious to me that both the DUP and UUP have been asleep when it came to this issue, " he said.
"There is a unionist majority on the commission which decides when the flag flies and there is no reason why the matter could not have been addressed before now."
The Department of Culture. Media and Sport say there are 23 designated days on which the union flag can be flown at government buildings across the UK.
Three would not apply to Northern Ireland buildings (St David's Day - Wales only; St Andrew's Day -Scotland only and St George' Day - England only)
Two of those days listed are regarding the 'Day of Opening of a Session of the Houses of Parliament' by the Queen and the 'Day of the Prorogation of a Session of the Houses of Parliament' also by the Queen.
Flags should only be flown in the greater London area on these days.
To complicate matters the union flag flies every day on the Scottish Parliament building in Edinburgh alongside the Saltire, and the European flag.
Following Belfast City Council's decision at the start of December to fly the flag only on designated days the DUP has talked of increasing the number of days it flies at Stormont.
They want the Assembly Commission to consider the issue but so far it has been unable to meet because Sinn Fein the SDLP and Alliance have refused to attend.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20959694

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 11:24 PM

It was my understanding that loyalists brought violence and trouble to "protest" a Republican parade which had been planned and was expected to be peaceful.

Relax Jim, I know about these other obnoxious marches. This is where I learned it:

http://books.google.com/books?id=UXrm1KH752IC&pg=PA191&lpg=PA187&vq=Orange+drums

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 01:29 AM

And, you're bored by the Beatles.

Guess what? They're bored with you. I can hear it in their Liverpool accents.

What is it with you?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1MMDugt8ZRk&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D1MMDugt8ZRk

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 03:13 AM

it was your quote from a Republican leader that they had no problem with the vast majority of the marches which were well behaved, but the big aggressive ones in Derry and Belfast which were days out for thugs - want me to dig that one out for you or do you intend to just walk away from your own stupidity

You can not.
I just wanted to see what excuse you would give for not doing what you offered.
A bluff, and I called it.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 04:06 AM

"I just wanted to see what excuse you would give for not doing what you offered."
You appear to be admitting that your presence on these threads is a game of one-upmanship and that you have no real interest in the subject in hand - do I have that right?
Tell me you didn't post the claim - simple as that - call my bluff and your wish shall be granted O crass one.
You have had the Republican stance on parades from the horses mouth, which was what this is about
You accused us of resenting people having their fun instead of being concerned over cretinous thugs injuring police and making the lives of the people of Ireland miserable and dangerous.
"Why do people so hate for them to just march and play?"
You do your crocodile tears act to the extent of using the death of the Omagh victims as a platform for your hand-wringing, yet you seem happy to ignore the present dangerous violence on the streets of Belfast and around the 'flag' protests which lasted for three months and has been described by the police as potentially life threatening.
You seem to have abandoned any shred of attempt to debate decently and articulately.
One last time - are you claiming, as you appear to be, that you didn't post a statement by a leading Republican that "they have no problem with peaceful marches, but were just concerned with the violent, triumphant ones that caused the trouble" - yes or no?
If the answer is "yes" that is your claim, I will be more than happy to find the statement and put it up here, along with your claims that the violence in the province was now over and the four nights of rioting was caused by children.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 07:20 AM

One last time - are you claiming, as you appear to be, that you didn't post a statement by a leading Republican that "they have no problem with peaceful marches, but were just concerned with the violent, triumphant ones that caused the trouble" - yes or no?
Yes.

You appear to be admitting that your presence on these threads is a game of one-upmanship and that you have no real interest in the subject in hand - do I have that right?
No.

Once again, instead of discussing the issues, you claim that my old posts make me a bad person.
I am not a bad person and there is nothing bad in any of my posts.
I only want to discuss the issues.
(The thread wrench to parades and flags was you.)

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 09:10 AM

"Yes."
Gotcha, you evil lying bastard
RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Keith A of Hertford - Date: 13 Jul 10 - 11:17 AM
Gerry Kelly, Sinn Fein MLA for N Belfast said, "There are only a handful of Orange Order parades which are contentious. It is time that the Loyal Orders faced up to this reality and entered into dialogue with local residents to resolve these issues."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/10608851.stm


Your old posts do make you an evil shit
Am just (as promised) selecting your posts from the 'Have a Glorious Twelfth!' thread in which to blame "children" as the main cause of the 4 days rioting in Belfast and much, much more.
"there is nothing bad in any of my posts."
I don't suppose that describing "all male British Pakistanis" as being "cultury implanted' to make them prone to underage sex, is considered bad by people like you!
"(The thread wrench to parades and flags was you.)"
Oh no - not the dreaded "thread drift" gambit again" - which way to the air-raid shelter?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 09:28 AM

One last time - are you claiming, as you appear to be, that you didn't post a statement by a leading Republican that "they have no problem with peaceful marches, but were just concerned with the violent, triumphant ones that caused the trouble" - yes or no?

Yes.

That quote does not say anything about "violent" or "triumphant" parades.
Everyone knows some are contentious Jim, and no-one denies it.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 09:35 AM

I don't suppose that describing "all male British Pakistanis" as being "cultury implanted' to make them prone to underage sex, is considered bad by people like you!

I do consider it bad, but it is the view of prominent, Left Wing British Pakistanis like Jasmin Alibhai-Brown and Lord Ahmed.
I was just reporting them.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 11:34 AM

"That quote does not say anything about "violent" or "triumphant" parades."
You slimeball bastard - I said you posted a statement from a leading Republican that they had no problem with peaceful marches - you denied you had and suggested I was lying
It was not a quote - it was a summing up of the Republican line on marches.
"They don't - I seem to remember it was your quote from a Republican leader that they had no problem with the vast majority of the marches which were well behaved, but the big aggressive ones in Derry and Belfast which were days out for thugs"
You really are a despicable little shit.
And yet again you are lying - nobody has ever said that "all male Pakistanis are "implanted" except you an the BNP
You have consistently failed to produce one single quote
" you claim that my old posts make me a bad person."
Thank you for making my point for me - and not just old posts.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 03:41 PM

Sorry Jim, but there was nothing to justify " but the big aggressive ones in Derry and Belfast which were days out for thugs."
Nothing like that was ever said.
You made it up.
Obviously some are contentious.
That is why we have the Parades Commission.

Alibhai-Brown, Ahmed and Shafiq ALL stated their views, in their own words, that their culture led to the offending.
I merely reported that, using the expression used by Don T.
As I have often told you, I do not have knowledge of it myself to form such an opinion.

Now, why must you always attack me personally instead of just discussing the issues like a rational person.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 04:25 PM

BTW Jim, parades are only contentious by virtue of their route.
Nothing to do with "aggression" or "triumphalism" or "violence."

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Robert in Edinburgh
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 07:29 PM

Just read through this thread tonight, after a long absence. Interesting documentary material. I recall that, when I was at University, one Professor stated in that characteristically confident, quacking voice of the British ruling classes that the Irish potato famine was, and I quote exactly, "Market Adjustment". A major Scottish University; some time between 1996 and 1999.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Beachcomber
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 08:54 PM

It is a pity Jim, that you seem to constantly allow yourself to be goaded into intemperate language by Keith. This man obviously has a practised line in defending the indefensible using this as his tactic. His apparent calmness is his greatest weapon. You should rely for yours on the incontestable facts of those terrible times, God knows they have been written about in great volume ever since.
If anyone still considers, in this day and age, that the Government of Ireland, of the day, did not have major culpability in the deaths of a million people, they must indeed have very poor qualities of analysis.
Professional Historians, of course, will not be able to make a living if they write only in total agreement with that which their predecessors have written, this is the basis of much "revisionism" (ie Publish or die !)Their theories on historical facts are of no more value than those of anybody else who has researched. We have no need to be in awe of them.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 02:39 AM

"It is a pity Jim, that you seem to constantly allow yourself to be goaded into intemperate language by Keith."
It is and I do Beach... all too often.
Keith has become Mudcat's self-appointed troll and I am stupid enough to take him seriously only because he chooses to practice his trollism on subjects that interest me – our combined stupidity has destroyed thread after thread.
I keep promising it won't happen again, but it probably will - apologies to all - again.
Your point about "professional historians" is well taken, as is Guest Robert's on "market adjustments'.
In Ireland, the refusal to discuss subjects like the Famine in depth extends beyond the history books into politics, where consecutive governments, without being able to ignore the subject altogether, have largely avoided apportioning or even discussing causes and blame for the catastrophe.
I believe this is because, despite having achieved partial independence, Ireland has become reliant on its people being able to emigrate to look for work during difficult economic times and Britain is their nearest port in a storm.
It is virtually impossible to meet anybody here who hasn't worked "at the building, on the roads" or "I was a nurse in a British hospital"....
Members of my own family have migrated back-and-forth for at least three generations.
It has become a bolt-hole for political and economic incompetence here, most recently since 'The Celtic Tiger' became was hunted to extinction.
The turning point in opening up the subject of the Famine studied appears to have been the 150th anniversary commemorations which produced a mass of well-researched literature, major publications, and well-researched media broadcasts and lectures on the subject - this continues to be the case.
I would highly recommend the recently published 'Atlas of the Great Irish Famine, a beautifully produced doorstep of a book crammed with nation-wide local information - not cheap, but already appearing at reduced prices.
We got our copy from The Book Depository - the fact that they don't charge for postage makes quite a difference to a book that weighs as much as a month's diet of potatoes for a Famine family would have!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 03:45 AM

Professional Historians, of course, will not be able to make a living if they write only in total agreement with that which their predecessors have written, this is the basis of much "revisionism" (ie Publish or die !)Their theories on historical facts are of no more value than those of anybody else who has researched. We have no need to be in awe of them.

Some make a living pushing the old version of history.
Their books are the best sellers.
We are told that revisionists have long been the majority.
We should not be in awe of them, but neither should we dismiss them as Jim does.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 04:40 AM

Keith - a friendly (and final - to you) word on this subject
You started off vilifying "revisionists" as those with an agenda which is the reason why they blame Britain for the consequences of the Famine
You also claimed that "revisionists" who blamed Britain were very much in the minority.
You now appear to be advocating on behalf of "revisionism" and suggesting that people here are "dismissing" it.
You have been provided with a long list of your having done both.
You strongly supported Christine Kenealy's line when you believed she had claimed that Britain was in no way to blame for the disastrous outcome of the Famine, yet you totally ignore her view it was the opposite.
Nobody here, apart from yourself, is dismissing any branch of history - they are both related, one arising from the other.
If you want to be taken serious on this, or any subject, I suggest you acquaint yourself with as many of the facts of those subjects rather than relying on randomly gathered web snippets, as you invariably do.
A good start here might be that you clarified your understanding of the meaning and implications of the terms "revisionism" and "traditional".
You say that you have never read a book on the Famine; might I suggest that it might be a good idea if you put that right and went and read one - or even two, maybe?
Over and out as far as this rather confusing interlude is concerned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,cobra
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 08:07 AM

Jim, leave Keith to wallow in his own ignorance. He is a troll of the highest order, he offers nothing other than attempts to draw others into his web where obfuscation, dissembling and distortion of facts is his standard MO For example:-

"I merely reported ..... using the expression used by Don T.
As I have often told you, I do not have knowledge of it myself to form such an opinion."

Virtually every thread he gets involved in is on the basis that he takes umbrage that Perfidious Albion has ANY responsibility for the more vile elements of military campaigning, treatment of the colonised etc.

Of course, he reserves his greatest obfuscation for anything to do with Ireland. He has variously claimed intimate knowledge of Ireland , having spent extensive time in Northern Ireland and seeing no triumphalism etc in the various parades. When challenged and pinned down on this, he admitted he had been there one weekend for a wedding!

Far and away the favourite ploy he uses is to deflect and refuse to answer when his arguments are demolished, usually with the rejoinder: "Ah but Jim/ Don/ whoever, II do not know anything. I merely report the writings/ words of "famous historians/ experts on culture etc"

Jim, I encourage you, do not bite at his pathetic utterings. I have voted with my feet. Still, it gives me a perverse pleasure to observe him on various threads continuing to indulge his ignorant bile and his nasty and dangerous BNP/EDL ranting which, even by his standards, sounds increasingly ignorant and stuck in League of Empire Loyalist mists of time. Nevertheless, it were better that he is denied the oxygen of publicity, as one of his more recent political heroes more recently opined.

To conclude (and to paraphrase), I do not mean to be offensive ;-))) I merely offer these words which have been ratified by experts in the world of internet trolling and analysts of far-right styles of messageboard. If anyone has an argument with that, please do not take me to task, talk to the experts who have stated these things. Oh, and if one needs to, a rudimentary Google search for my source material will provide reams of cut & paste material with which to confound the perfidious Albionist. He will appreciate that as a method for discussion which he has enjopyed (exclusively) for many years.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 01:49 PM

You know Jim, these people may have a point. Keith does rather seem to enjoy showing up to give you a hard time just for the sake of doing it. You probably shouldn't talk to him anymore.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mg
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 01:59 PM

I think that would be a very good idea. In the meantime, there are those of us who are more interested in what happened to our ancestors, need help tracing immigration patterns, need to know individual stories. We know that there was bad governance; we know that there were countless abuses. But a constant battering of the powers that be at the time does not do us all that much good at least in my opinion, and it prevents the stories from being told. And there are stories that probably have not died out yet. There are genealogy efforts on both sides of the ocean and elsewhere that are knitting together stories; there is so much DNA evidence that will be found. If you could back off the endless repetitive stuff and let the unknown stuff emerge I for one would appreciate it. And we can all ask ourselves what we are doing about starvation in countless places in the world. And abuses right now.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 03:05 PM

" But a constant battering of the powers that be at the time does not do us all that much good at least in my opinion"
Skirting around why things happened is somewhat impractical, even if it were desirable.
Over the last month or so I was astounded to learn of how little there was in both English and Irish history books on the details of the Famine, beyond the blight and the death and immigration numbers, even though there is a great deal of oral history.
It was the 150th anniversary that prodded the historians into action full-time (presumably it would have happened on the 100th anniversary, but Britain was a bit busy then!
Much of the "unknown stuff" is very much a part of the whys and wherefores of the famine.
Any family involved in personal research not only needs, but has a right to know what happened to their forebears, not in order to extract revenge or point fingers - simply to follow trails.
This country is covered with unregistered famine graves - at one of the larger towns, Ennistymon, here on the west coast, the workhouse was dealing with so many deaths that they ordered special coffins with hinged bases so they could be re-used over and over again to cope with the number of dead.   
On several occasions we were told of local patches of "hungry grass" - fields where is claimed unmarked famine graves were sited and where they said if you walk over it on the anniversary of the burials, you will experience hunger pains.
The famine is part of the Irish Psyche, suggesting that there are some bits we shouldn't discuss is not unlike teaching 20th century history by saying "In 1939 Britain went to war, but we never talk about why it started or what happened".   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 11:32 AM

You started off vilifying "revisionists" as those with an agenda which is the reason why they blame Britain for the consequences of the Famine
You also claimed that "revisionists" who blamed Britain were very much in the minority.
You now appear to be advocating on behalf of "revisionism" and suggesting that people here are "dismissing" it.

I have not vilified the "revisionist" or the "nationalist" famine historians.
I joined this thread because only the "nationalist" version had been put.
I offered a couple of short "revisionist" quotes.
Jim found that unacceptable, and that is the source of all the hostility.

There has been no hostility from me.
No hysterical abuse and no offensive name calling in technicolour posts

You all seem to find it unacceptable for anyone to mention that there is a revisionist version of this history.
Christine Kenealy stated as a matter of fact that revisionist historians are in the MAJORITY and have been for over EIGHTY YEARS.

I think I was being reasonable in allowing that version to be put, and you are all unreasonable in shouting me down.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Gutcher
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 03:24 PM

A'buddies oot o step but oor Jock!

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 03:29 AM

If I am out of step, please tell me how.
Suzy and mg, if I have offended, please help me not to do it again.

Was it wrong of me to point out that historians are divided?
Was it wrong of me to give those brief, short quotes?
I did it in neutral and unprovocative posts, but was subjected to an abusive attack.
Do you condone that.

Should I refrain from any contribution because Jim Carroll is incapable of dealing rationally with an alternative viewpoint?

Suzy and mg, I expect such treatment from Jim, but I did not expect it from you.
Again, please, what have I done?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: MartinRyan
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 04:00 AM

The unedifying sight of two punch-drunk combatants reeling round the ring continues...

Pity.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 04:13 AM

No.
I am not a combatant.
There is nothing combative in any of my posts.

I am attacked for just reporting that historians have differing views.

Please, anyone, what have I done?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 04:38 AM

"The unedifying sight of two punch-drunk combatants reeling round the ring continues."
Finished as far as I'm concerned Martin - I've helped nause up enough threads - you have my word on that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 04:39 AM

More importantly - what should we understand from the debate and apply to present times.
- the danger of overpopulation ( There is nothing good about 10 billion )
- of mono culture ( and lack of bio diversity in food plants)
- of some sections of society benefiting at the expense of the rest ( land and food speculators )
- the difficulty of capitalism to act co operatively even if problems are understood and accepted ( climate change)
- that apportioning blame can lead to understanding or hostility.

As folkies we often look down on pop music for its trivia. Are we also missing some of the big issues?
FloraG

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 05:58 AM

Jim, why can't you just respond to my perfectly reasonable posts in a rational, calm and thoughtful way?
We could have a normal discussion instead of one sided combat.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 07:06 AM

*ignore*

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 09:12 AM

Flora
While I agree wholehearted with virtually all the points you make, and would add some 'lessons to be learned' of my own, I can't agree that any of them are "more important"
"Apportioning blame" is not an issue here, understanding why things happened the way they did, if for no other reason than to cope with natural disasters beyond our control is what it should, and as far as I'm concerned, is what it is all about.
The potato blight was a natural disaster.
The reliance on the potato exacerbated that "natural disaster".
The basic inhumanity, the placing of economic interests over human well-being, and the political and moral judgement that drove those in charge to respond the way they did, that was the important factor, not the blight itself - what has become blindly obvious over the last decade is that the handling of that "natural disaster" was the cause of most of the deaths, misery, hardship and emigrations - as John Mitchel put it "God created the blight, the British created the famine."
I believe that a lesson can be learned from all this and applied to many of the contemporary situations, from flooding in Florida to famine in the Third Word.
One interesting feature of our recent understanding of the famine has been the apparent effect that Tony Blair's apology has had on the current peace process (I never thought I'd ever have anything good to say about that man!)   
One of the penalties of attempting to ignore the whole facts of history and brushing the bad bits under the carpet is that it always comes back to bite your bum - "what have THEY got to hide?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,grumpy
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 12:34 PM

Just a thought, but having read through the entirety of this thread, it strikes me that Keith hasn't a clue what revisionism means. Perhaps he'd like to define this in his own terms (and not copy and paste somebody else's definition)?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Gutcher
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 12:41 PM

KoH
"And you are all unreasonable in shouting me down."
[Q] Please tell me where I shouted you down.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 01:31 PM

Gutcher, your whole contribution has been a couple of sentences about events in Scotland, and one sentence of cod Scots in your second and last post.
The shouters down are those who did not want to read that most historians do not hold the government culpable.

Grumpy, the terms "nationalist" and "revisionist" in the context of famine history were explained by me, with quotes, in a few posts on 16th July.

If you want an example of someone who REALLY does not understand, read this.
"Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 04:40 AM

Keith - a friendly (and final - to you) word on this subject
You started off vilifying "revisionists" as those with an agenda which is the reason why they blame Britain for the consequences of the Famine
You also claimed that "revisionists" who blamed Britain were very much in the minority.
You now appear to be advocating on behalf of "revisionism" and suggesting that people here are "dismissing" it.
You have been provided with a long list of your having done both.
You strongly supported Christine Kenealy's line when you believed she had claimed that Britain was in no way to blame for the disastrous outcome of the Famine, yet you totally ignore her view it was the opposite.
Nobody here, apart from yourself, is dismissing any branch of history - they are both related, one arising from the other.
If you want to be taken serious on this, or any subject, I suggest you acquaint yourself with as many of the facts of those subjects rather than relying on randomly gathered web snippets, as you invariably do.
A good start here might be that you clarified your understanding of the meaning and implications of the terms "revisionism" and "traditional".
You say that you have never read a book on the Famine; might I suggest that it might be a good idea if you put that right and went and read one - or even two, maybe?
Over and out as far as this rather confusing interlude is concerned.
Jim Carroll"

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,grumpy
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 02:15 PM

'Grumpy, the terms "nationalist" and "revisionist" in the context of famine history were explained by me, with quotes, in a few posts on 16th July.'

Nope, you just cited other sources (and misinterpreted at least two of them), so I'll repeat my request for you to define 'revisionism' in your own words. Come to think of it, I don't think you understand the concept of nationalism either!

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Gutcher
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 02:20 PM

KoH
As I have never met with the term "cod" Scots you could perhaps give me an explanation of the meaning.
My post of 30.7.13. is quite explicit and suggests that the reading of a diary written on the ground at the time may throw some light on the subject under discussion. I have no idea whether the historians have read this work which is about Ireland and not Scotland as your above post suggests.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 02:28 PM

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 02:58 AM

Steve, it was a famine triggered by the blight.
All historians agree it was catastrophic for Ireland.
The old "nationalist" historians regarded the English as being uniquely uncaring and the Irish as uniquely the victims.

"Revisionist" historians challenge the view that England was culpable.

English and Scots peasants were also displaced and filled coffin ships.
Richard mentioned the enclosures, and in Scotland were the clearances.
It was the English surplus population that Scrooge wanted reduced.

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 04:19 AM

So Jim favours the "nationalist" version of the famine.
No surprise there Jim, but why should we ignore the views of modern historians who refute it?
Again, what is your opinion as a historian worth?

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 06:06 AM

"Nationalist" is no smear Jim.

Were you not aware that "revisionist" historians do not accept the view that "nationalist" historians have for so long regarded as objective truth.
Sorry, but that is a fact.
I am not a historian of any kind, and am just a messenger on this, so please don't shoot me.

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 06:17 AM

The revisionist response & interpretation: from the foreword to The Great Famine
R. Dudley Edwards & T. Desmond Williams (eds.), The Great Famine: Studies in Irish History 1845-52, 1956
The traditional interpretation of the Great Famine is
fundamental to an understanding of the character of
Irish society in the second half of the 19th century and
later. But if modern research cannot substantiate the
traditional in all its forms, something surely more
sobering emerges which is, perhaps, of greater value
towards an appreciation of the problems that beset all
mankind, both the governors and the governed in every
generation. If man, the prisoner of time, acts in
conformity with the conventions of society into which
he is born, it is difficult to judge him with an
irrevocable harshness. So it is with the men of the
famine era. Human limitations and timidity dominate
the story of the Great Famine, but of great and
deliberately imposed evil in high positions of
responsibility there is little evidence. The really great
evil lay in the totality of that social order which made
such a famine possible and which could tolerate, to the
extent it did, the sufferings and hardship caused by the failure of the potato crop.

http://www.iisresource.org/Documents/KS3_Famine_Interpretations.pdf

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 01:52 PM

And yet again you refuse to respond to what has been presented to you.
You have documented evidence before you - from Government records, from the author......

Must I tell you again I am no historian?
I read what historians write after they have studied all those sources.

I find there is an old traditional version of famine history, and a version that modern historians have put in its place.
It says little for your scholarship that you were not even aware of that dichotomy, never mind the accepted terms for the 2 sides of the rift.

All I did was to give something of the modern view after the thread had dwelt at length solely on the traditional, nationalist version.

You have recently been an open apologist for every shitty little despotic regime
That is a nasty smear and a lie.
I have been an apologist for no regime.
If I had been, we could still have a reasoned discussion of this.
Do not try to make this about me again.
Do not make it personal.





Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 10:38 AM

Jim, I am not the historian, and I did not expect you to agree with them all, but they are eminent and respected.

I did not choose the terms "nationalist" and "revisionist" as applied to historians of the famine.
Google "revisionist nationalist history famine ireland" and see what comes up.

Nothing I gave is unlinked.
The '56 piece was from an up to date source for schools on the differing views of the famine.
The link is provided!

That final nasty little smearing swipe at me is completely unjustified and unwarranted, but you always have to make these things personal.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 02:31 PM

Gutcher, I have no criticism of your contribution.
You posted in dialect was all I meant by "cod Scots."

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim McLean
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 03:03 PM

And why is 'dialect' cod Scots?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 03:49 PM

Sorry.
I take it back.
It was taking the piss in dialect, and not taking the piss in cod Scots.
I hope that serious issue is cleared up.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,grumpy
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 03:49 PM

Keith,

Thanks for that montage. It is now utterly clear that you definitely do not understand the concept of revisionism when applied to history.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 05:57 PM

Really.
Do correct me Grumpy.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,cobra
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 06:34 PM

Still in denial then Keith.

*so tell me/ where have I made false statements/ I am merely reporting what others have said/ I do not profess to know, I simply report (read Google) what experts in their fields have said/ I am not a "combatant", I am a seeker-after-truth.... my truth, fair enough*

Just go and infect some other board with your ill-thought out poisoned rhetoric. You have no place in discussions where a modicum of intellectual rigour is required. You are a racist and intellectually deficient Google-warrior with a pathetic antipathy to anyone/ anything which challenges your view of Glorious Albion.

You are, in reality, a sad-sack racist and troll. You bring NO value to any thread you post on, you are a Google warrior of the worst kind, no original views, no cogent contributions - always some "expert" you quote and profess not to understand ( "Don't blame me Jim, I am only repeating what others, more knowledgable have said"). Yeah, right, you are in reality a pig ignorant thick little Englander, you have only ever spent a weekend in Northern Ireland yet you claim to have well-researched primary experience, you are a troll of the worst kind.

Racist, opinionated and without any original input whatsoever and devoid of any analysis which has not been Googled.

Just do one.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,cobra
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 06:40 PM

Never mind, you are still on *IGNORE*

and will remain so until such time as you offer an ORIGINAL thought as opposed to the current EDL/ BNP line.

I will not hold my breath.

*IGNORE*

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Gutcher
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 10:55 PM

The Shire of Hertford has a world wide reputation for the production of bulls.                                                      

Having read all the posts in this thread I would say that there is a concensus that Keith is deeply mired in the excrement of the said bovine species.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 03:38 AM

Grumpy.
It is now utterly clear that you definitely do not understand the concept of revisionism when applied to history.

The usage I explained to Jim in those repeated posts is exactly the usage used by historians.
That last link takes you to a History Education site where the usage is explained in clear and simple terms for the benefit of school kids.
You might find it helpful.
Then YOU provided a link to Dr. Christine's piece where she herself spelled out the usage exactly as I had given it.

So Grumpy, either you are ignorant yourself of the usage, or this is a dishonest and deceitful attempt to falsely discredit my contribution.
Which is it Grumpy

Cobra and Gutcha, all I have ever argued in this whole thread is that many historians, the revisionists, do not hold the government to be culpable.
Dr. Christine said they are the majority and have been the majority since before any of us were born.
What objection can you have to that?
Please explain your criticism of me.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 03:44 AM

Sorry to interrupt lads, but aren't you falling to the trap I have ended up in far too often in allowing this twot to detract from the serious discussion - he really has nothing to say and has now reverted to his Dalek mode of repeating what he has already not said before.   
There really is a great deal to be said about the Famine without feeding the troll
A reminder of what was allowed to happen in order that Ireland should continue to fulfil its role as "Britain's breadbasket"

From the 'Cork Examiner' of March 19th, 1847 reporting on a court case in which a man had been charged with stealing food.
"He said he was driven to it by what had happened to his wife. The court was told: The starving woman lay in her hovel next to her dead three year old son, waiting for her husband to return from begging food. When night fell and his failure to return led her to imagine him dead in a ditch, she lay there in the faint fire's dying embers, caressing with her eyes her dead son's face and his tiny fists.
With death searching her and now with her own fists clenched, she made one last effort to remain alive. Crawling as far away from her son's face as she could, as if to preserve his personality or at least her memory of it, she came to his bare feet and proceeded to eat them.
When her husband returned and saw what had happened, he buried the child, went out, and was caught trying to steal food. At his trial the magistrate from his immediate district intervened on his behalf, citing the wife's act as a circumstance deserving special consideration. The baby's body was exhumed, the flesh of both its feet and legs found to have been gnawed to the bone, and the husband released and allowed to return to his wife."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 04:36 AM

Jim, you are absolutely correct.

"I only stated what an expert has said" (Google 1-0 Keith, again....)
It will be a cold day in hell before I engage with the racist buffoon. His Google skills are on the wane, I fear, and his pathetic debating style of non-response, dissembling and obfuscation is just so damned .... tedious.

But you carry on, Jim. FWIW, I think the way forward in this and future threads is simply to ignore the git and engage/ discuss with those who have a legitimate and genuine interest in the subject matter, as opposed to persistent trolling so as to derail and deflect debate.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 06:13 AM

"Jim, you are absolutely correct."
"200 times bitten - twice shy" - as they say
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 06:42 AM

I am not preventing any discussion about the Famine.
I have no contribution to make about those events.
I am no kind of historian and never claimed to be.

My only contribution has been to say that not all historians hold the government to be culpable.
The majority do not and have not for over eighty years.

That is all.
Why do you all object to that?
It is a statement of fact.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 08:00 AM

"Why do you all object to that?"
Nobody "objects" to anything - you are entitled to say whatever you please, as is every troll that emerges from under his bridge
Just don't expect anybody to respond - you blew it with your extremist excesses -
That's it, I've used up the single daily response I've allocated myself for time-wasting with trolls.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 08:54 AM

you blew it with your extremist excesses -

That is made up Jim.
I have said nothing even remotely controversial.

My only contribution has been to say that not all historians hold the government to be culpable.
The majority do not, and have not for over eighty years.

That is all.
"Extremist excesses" is a slander and a lie.

There is no honest criticism that can be made about my behaviour or contribution here.
That is why, for all the abuse, not one person has identified one thing

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 08:55 AM

...that they object to or challenge.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,grumpy
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 01:49 PM

Keith,

You seem mainly to deal in obfuscation.

I specifically asked you to define 'revisionism' in your own words, the reason being that I don't believe you know much about the content/context/meaning of the sources which you cite. You have plainly refused to do this, leading me to believe that you are a wind-up merchant of the first order.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 01:58 PM

I explained the use of "nationalist" and "revisionist" in all those posts I repeated for you Grumpy.
That is how historians use the term.
That is how I used it.

But make a monkey of me and highlight any single occasion I have misused either term.
Go ahead Grumpy dear.
Pick the very WORST example you can find.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 02:25 PM

From one of my posts repeated for you.

" "Revisionist" historians challenge the view that England was culpable."

Christine Kinealy in the History Ireland piece you supplied Grumpy.

" the issue of culpability has been consistently avoided or denied in revisionist accounts. Moreover, both the landlords and the British government have been rehabilitated; the former frequently being shown as hapless victims themselves, and the latter, as being ignorant of the real state of affairs in Ireland, and lacking both the financial and administrative capability to alleviate the situation anyway."

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,grumpy
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 02:51 PM

"Revisionist" historians challenge the view that England was culpable."

Er, no, revisionist historians have challenged the hegemonic view that Britain wasn't culpable.

See what I mean - you haven't a clue. Go and read some actual historians, Keith, rather than relying on Wikipedia.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 03:03 PM

So Kinealy and all the other authorities are wrong.
Or you are.
Put up a source for that Grumpy.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 03:09 PM

"revisionist historians have challenged the hegemonic view that Britain wasn't culpable."

Er no.
You haven't a clue.

Look at any of the links here, especially including yours.
Google "famine revisionism"

You will find that my understanding was and is correct.
Did you make that up?
Did you mean to expose your ignorance so publicly.
How does it make you feel?
Grumpy Grumpy?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,grumpy
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 03:44 PM

Keith,

Go away and read and Cecil Woodham Smith's wonderful book, 'The Great Hunger: Ireland 1845-49', published in 1962. She was pretty much the first to question the idea (which was then predominant among Irish historians) that Britain was not accountable for the Irish famine.

Woodham Smith was a revisionist. You still clearly do not understand what the term means.

I'm not going to bother with you any more.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 07:00 PM

Cecil Woodham Smith was a nationalist historian, if you accept that she was any kind of historian at all.
Historians dismiss her work.
Grumpy, in the link YOU provided we learned that professional acedemic revisionist historians in Dublin dismissed her book as "a good novel."
You Grumpy, haven't a clue.
Did you ever read that piece you linked to Grumpy.
I am no historian and can not judge between them, but I at least know which is which.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 07:18 PM

Google.

History Ireland

www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/beyond...

Nationalist paradigm. To a large extent, ... Cecil Woodham- Smith's The Great Hunger – the best selling Irish history book of all time. Ideological minefield.





The Uses and Abuses of History in Ireland: A Manichean Famine ...

www.academia.edu/2541718/The_Uses_and_Abuses_of_History_in_Ireland...

"Nationalist" historians hold the British ... The Nationalist perception of the Irish past was also defended by modern historians such as Cecil Woodham-Smith.





History Ireland

www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/dr-jekyll...

... [to separatist-nationalism] like Cecil Woodham Smith' and 'naively hilarious works of piety about the Young Irelanders, ...

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 07:31 PM

You have not a clue Grumpy.
You have demonstrated your profound ignorance of the whole issue.
You have made a complete ARSE of yourself.

"If de Valera was disappointed in the revisionist classic, in
1962 he was able to acknowledge and celebrate a book that took a
great leap in the opposite direction. Cecil Woodham-Smith's The Great
Hunger: Ireland 1845-49 was a bestseller at the time of publication and
still sells well to this day. Although Woodham-Smith was not a
professional historian, her work involved over ten years of research.
O'Grada credits her as a "formidable researcher."12 Revisionists
dismissed her work as too emotional and passionate to be taken
seriously as a scholarly work. In reality, Woodham-Smith revived the
nationalist interpretation, placing the blame for the famine back at
Britain's door".13
http://castle.eiu.edu/historia/archives/2006/Henderson.pdf

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mg
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 07:49 PM

well, you guys must be great scholars to have 414 posts and said very little. Do you know what the situation was in DIngle, Dunquin specifically...do you know where the workhouse was (I read in Tralee) and where people would have immigrated from..did they take their little boats perhaps or walk? Donkey cart? This is what I want to know. Stuff like this. THen we can proceed to Tralee and Blasket Islands.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Gutcher
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 12:31 AM

MG-- before visiting the Blasket Islands read a book called "The Islandman". composed in gaelic by a native of those islands and in an English translation.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 04:04 AM

Once again Keith appears to be cluttering up this thread by repeating undigested cut-n-pastes which have been discredited earlier - and once again he is attempting to smear historians (this time Englishwoman Mrs Cecil Woodham Smith as a non-historian "Nationalist") rather than show us where what she had to say was wrong.
If he had read any of her books - he admits he has never read ANY book on the famine - we could deal with her "Nationalism" in some detail, but these hit-and-run tactics of scooping up out-of-context bits from the web which suit his particular anti-Irish stance are merely spoilers.
That the British were to blame for the outcome of the famine is now beyond reasonable argument and is fully accepted, what is debateable is whether the policy of locking up food supplies and exporting the freshly grown food rather than feeding the starving people was in any way justified on economic, political or humanitarian grounds.
Historians, just like folklorists, scientists, musicologists... tend to disregard those without letters behind their names as "not one of us" - it is very much a case of "history for the historians".....
To write off a book which introduced many millions to the facts of the Famine and kept the subject a matter of interest until it could overcome the political taboo that surrounded it, as non-historical is utterly and nonsensically outrageous; most historians, while maybe finding fault with some details, recognise 'The Great Hunger' for what it truly is - an important milestone to one of the most decisive events in Irish history – to do so without having read it is crass arrogance.
For someone who hasn't read it to denigrate this, or any other book on the subject, is to use a historical event which (possibly deliberately, as a solution to "The Irish Problem") led to the death of a million Irish people and forced generations more to emigrate, as a platform for extremist anti-Irish prejudice - a position Keith has adopted on other threads on this forum
It is no more than the same smear tactics he used on Tim Pat Coogan's (equally unread) 'The Famine Plot' – Britain's Mary Whitehouse made a career out of libelling and seeking to have banned books she hadn't read and films she hadn't seen.
Quite honestly, I have really had enough of Keith's spoiling and stonerwalling tactics on subjects he admits he knows nothing whatever about, and I suspect there are others who feel the same as I do.
If he had any real interest in these subjects he would at least have familiarised himself with them before he embarked on these sagas rather than relying on on-the-spot, scooped up and out-of-context quotes.
His only reason for joining any of them, as far as I can see, is to shelter Britain from any form of criticism - and he dares to describe Mrs Woodham Smith as a "nationalist" - this is 'Little-British' flag waving at its most extreme, and it is spoiling thread after thread and driving members and non-members away from these subjects.
It is not my practice to complain about the way contributors make their contributions on these subjects, but if he persists in his 'spoiler' tactics I fully intend to approach the forum administrators and see if he can't be controlled - it is nothing less than 'trollism'.
It is totally unfair on all other genuinely interested individuals that he should behave as he does - if he had any real interest in this or any other subject he has brought crashing down in flames he would at least attempt to acquire some knowledge before he comes smashing his way in with his destructive behaviour - his presence has become an inevitable kiss-of-death to all informed or genuinely interested discussion.
And to think of how much I was looking forward enjoying contributing to and learning from this subject when my friend Jim Martin put it up.
A thoroughly pissed off Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 04:19 AM

That the British were to blame for the outcome of the famine is now beyond reasonable argument and is fully accepted,

Except by the professional, academic historians, but what do they know?
Right Jim?
The majority are revisionists and reject that.

mg, it is true that I have "said very little" in a large number of posts.
I have just said that there are two versions of the history, and established which is in the majority and for how long that has been the case.

For all his reading, Jim was completely unaware of those facts, and dear old Grumpy had the terms "nationalist" and "revisionist" the wrong way round.

I have clarified all that completely, unsupported by any other contributor, and in the face of an unrelenting tirade of nasty, malicious abuse from many of you.

I ask no thanks for this service.
My reward will be to learn more of these tragic events from the ensuing discussion as a passive observer.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 04:41 AM

We've been here over and over again Keith - you have admitted you know nothing of these subjects yet you insist on dominating to with your ignorance.
Learn something from reading a book beforehand rather than dominating discussions with your self-confessed ignorance
You had made your mind up at the very begining and had no intention whatever of changing it - hence your relying on irrelevant labels like "revisionist" which you have more than proved you don't understand.
I fully understand the terms I use - don't equate me as being as ignorant as you.
If you want to understand go and read something - anything -
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 04:41 AM

We've been here over and over again Keith - you have admitted you know nothing of these subjects yet you insist on dominating to with your ignorance.
Learn something from reading a book beforehand rather than dominating discussions with your self-confessed ignorance
You had made your mind up at the very begining and had no intention whatever of changing it - hence your relying on irrelevant labels like "revisionist" which you have more than proved you don't understand.
I fully understand the terms I use - don't equate me as being as ignorant as you.
If you want to understand go and read something - anything -
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 04:55 AM

It was you and Grumpy who failed to understand those words Jim.
I hope you have learned from my instruction now.

"Revisionist" and "nationalist" are not "irrelevant labels."
They are fundamental to this debate as they define the two opposing schools of historians.

Now that is established, heed mg and get on with a proper, thoughtful discussion of the events.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 05:01 AM

I genuinely hope that your professed regard for this forum will stop you from using it in the way you do and allow the rest of us to conduct decent discussions without your agenda-driving.
Your behaviour is like that of a precocious attention-seeking child in a roomful of adults trying to have a serious conversation.
Please show a little respect for this forum or confine your dominating threads to subjects you have enough of an interest in and feeling for to have taking the trouble to read up beforehand.
STOP DOMINATING AND DESTROYING THREADS WITH YOUR ILL-INFORMED BIGOTRY
Go and learn something for all our sakes, you have publicly humiliated yourself enough with your ignorance
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 06:53 AM

"It was you and Grumpy who failed to understand those words Jim."
This is a typical example of your using this forum as self promotion
It was this statement that corrected your use of the term "revisionism" and it was then that you made your amazing U turn and became a champion of revisionism, having equated it previously with "nationalism"
How can it be possible to continue debating with someone to whom distorted dishonest is second nature?
"It would be wrong to leave anyone under the impression that "revisionism" is defined by Foster and similarly-minded people. The great Cambridge historian, Professor Brendan Bradshaw, carefully analysed what authentic revisionism was at a 1995 historical conference in New York. He accepted that all working historians are 'revisionist', in that they analyse new material that comes on stream, new sources that are opened, and private papers that are donated for research—all of which leads to new questions and obviously new conclusions. But there he departed from agreement with our revisionists."
http://www.atholbooks.org/extracts/foster_preface.php

I really have had enough of this.
To anybody still interested or awake:
This is not strictly on topic, but it is a wonderful example of someone whose post-Famine dedication set Ireland back on its feet after many centuries of English exploition and abuse.
It was published in the Irish Times as part of the 1913 Dublin Lockout commemoration earlier this week.
Jim Carroll

"A WORKING CLASS HERO AND A WOMAN TO BOOT
Mary McAuliffe and Jeni Gartland
Opinion
A child of the Dublin tenements, Rosie Hackett put her life on the line for justice.

One hundred years after an ordinary young Dublin woman played an extraordinary role in the remarkable events unfolding around her, Rosie Hackett is back to make another bit of history, this time at the start of the 21st century.
Rosie died 37 year ago after a life dedicated to her fellow workers, city and nation.
Raised in humble circumstances, like many Dubliners she experienced the deprivation of tenement living. Rosie however was a natural leader and risked her livelihood, liberty and life itself to fight for the causes she believed in. She lost the former two occasions and was fortunate to escape with the latter once or twice.
She was a tenacious fighter for the rights of all workers, but especially women. Through her links with the Irish Transport and General Workers Union, the Irish Women Workers' Union and Irish Citizen Army she helped secure conditions many of us now take for granted.
It has been suggested recently that she might have been embarrassed by making Dublin City Council's shortlist
for the naming of the new Marlborough Street Bridge ahead of James Connolly.
That may be right - it would be nice to think all five nominees would consider themselves unworthy - but it is hard
to imagine Connolly, a firm supporter of workers' rights and women's rights, already honoured around the city,
would not support his friend and colleague in becoming the first woman to have a bridge over the Liffey named in her memory. On this, the anniversary of the 1913vlockout, there could hardly be a more appropriate choice.
Rosie, christened Rosanna, was born in 1892 in inner city Dublin. In 1901, she was living in a two-room rented flat, with six other family members and a ' lodger, in a tenement on Bolton Street. Later, at the time of the
1911 emus she was living on Old Abbey Street yards from the site of the new bridge.
Jacob's strike, she worked as a packer in a paper store, then became a messenger for Jacob's Biscuits.
Conditions were so bad at the factory that Jim Larkin said they would send the biscuit makers "from this earth 20
years before their lime".
On August 22nd, 1911 Rosie helped organise hundreds of Jacob's women who withdrew their labour in support of male colleagues who were striking; with their help, the men won better conditions and a pay rise. Two weeks later. Rosie co-founded the Irish Women Workers' Union (IWWU) with Delia Larkin. She was 18.
As the 1913 Lockout began, she helped mobilise the Jacob's women. When tram workers went on strike, in August, Jacob's workers came out in solidarity and, like others, were locked out by their employer.
During the Lockout, hunger and poverty were widespread. Rosie, with other 1WWU members, worked tirelessly to help the strikers, setting up soup kitchens in Liberty Hall.
In 1914, Jacob's sacked her for her role in the Lockout. She worked as a clerk in the IWWU in Liberty Hall, alongside Delia Larkin and Helena Molony. There she became connected with the Irish Citizen Army.
With Constance Markievicz, Michael Mallon and others, she was in the Irish Citizen Army battalion in Stephen's Green and the Royal College of Surgeons during the Easter Rising. She was also in Liberty Hall as the first 1916 Proclamation was being printed and later told of having given the first copy to James Connolly.
Following the rebels' surrender, she and the others were brought to Kilmainham Gaol and imprisoned for 10 days.
In 1917, on the anniversary of Connolly's death, the ITGWU hung a banner from Liberty Hall, saying: "James Connolly, Murdered May 12th, 1916." The police removed it but. With Helena Molony. Jinny Shanahan and Brigid Davis, she made another. They climbed to the roof, nailed the doors shut and stacked coal against the windows. Rosie later bragged that it took400 policemen to takedown four women.
After the Rising. Rosie revived the IWWU with Louie Bennett and Helen Chenevix.
At its strongest, it organized over70,000 women and won an extra week of paid holidays for all workers after the 1945 Laundry Strike. In 1970.
After 60 years of service to the labour movement. she was awarded a gold medal. Six years later, she died aged 82.
This year is ideal to commemorate Rosie's role in the fight for workers' rights. She is intrinsically linked to the area
around the new Marlborough Street bridge. Naming it in her honour would also be a fitting recognition of the contribution working-class women have made to modern Ireland.

Jeni Gartland Is a founding member ot the Rosie Hackett Bridge Campaign. Dr Mary McAulliffe lectures al UCD's school of social justice and is the president of The Women's History Association of Ireland"
Irish Times, Wednesday, 29th August

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 12:13 PM

Jim, I am mot preventing any discussion.
mg and I are looking forward to following it and learning.

if you could stop obsessing about blame and just discuss the tragic events and how they effected the poor desperate people of those dark days.
You have a history of obsessively attacking Britain in discussions about Syria, WW2, Travellers, immigration and much else.

It is the main source of our disagreements.

There IS debate among historians about blame, yet you still deny it.
Drop it and get back to the subject.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,grumpy
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 01:02 PM

Keith,

How's life on the planet Zog?

You claim, without apparently having read any of the books recommended to you about the Irish famine, that I have somehow confused the terms 'revisionist' and 'nationalist'. Good grief, man, have you no concept of self-pity?

Go away and read yourself silly on the subject. Only then will you be able to make any sensible comments.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 02:50 PM

I have read a great deal about the nationalist/revisionist divide.
Your definition was wrong.
You even described Woodham-Smith as a revisionist!

Do you get it now or shall I explain it again?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 03:44 PM

How about just pissing off and reading something from cover to cover instead of bandying about clichés obviously you don't understand?
From the word go you dealt in Clichés
Revisionist = nationalist or IRA supported
Tim Pat Coogan = IRA fraud
Anybody who disagrees with you = bigot, Nationalist, Republican
Irish teachers = bigoted hate=mongers who promote children go go out and kill somebody
Just go away = you are a bigoted, a flag-wagging nationalist - and totally incapable of holding a decent honest opinion from one sentence to the next
Please do not nause up this thread any more than you have - you are a small minded ignoramus and you've done an incredible amout of damage to this forum
Leave us alone and go and pester somebody else
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Gutcher
Date: 01 Sep 13 - 02:35 AM

KoH
An forby ye didna even read ma short post when ye claimed it was aboot Scotland an nae Ireland.
The diary recommended in the said post, whilst written from the perspective of the landowning class, also criticizes that class and the R.C. clergy.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mg
Date: 01 Sep 13 - 02:38 AM

you both have

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Gutcher
Date: 01 Sep 13 - 03:10 AM

mg-- KoH in his reply made a snide remark about the Scots Language.
He did not apologise for his mistaken assumption that I was recommending a diary about Scotland when it was plainly shown to be about Ireland at the critical time of the famine years.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Sep 13 - 03:21 AM

Jim, I am not debating the famine.
I am looking forward to following such a debate.

It is a pity you still deny that historians are split over the question of blame.
Why is blame so important to you?
It is the events of the famine and its impact on the people that is of most interest.

Al I had and have to say about blame is that most historians, especially the professional, academic ones, challenge it.

mg, was I wrong to point that out?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Sep 13 - 03:45 AM

Gutcher, to make amends for any unintended sleight, I would like to reproduce in full your whole contributions to the discussion of the famine, its causes and its consequences.

"Read "The Diary Of A Highland Lady In Ireland" by a Mrs Smith nee Elizabeth Grant of Rothiemurchus for an interesting view by an outsider of the landowners side of the story which contains first hand details of the problems faced by small estate owners who, lets face it, were more concerned for their own survival and place in society.
E.G. having been brought up in a paternal highland society in Scotland at least tried to alleviate the problems of the poor within the constrictions mentioned."

I am also deeply sorry that I thought this was just a piss take, and not a serious expression of Scots dialect.
"A'buddies oot o step but oor Jock!"

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 13 - 04:10 AM

Keith
You are obviously hell-bent on destroying this thread and are now fully recognised as being the self-appointed stalker of this forum.
Another scalp for your belt - well done!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 01 Sep 13 - 05:47 AM

Jim, I keep telling you I want the discussion to go on.
I hope to learn more about those times.
Why don't you stop going on about blame?
You can not punish anyone.
They are all dead.

If you do discuss blame, you should not deny that historians are divided about it, as you have just done again.
That will always be challenged because it is bollocks.

Lets us just accept that there is a continuing debate on that, and move on.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,keith
Date: 01 Sep 13 - 05:53 AM

All this is bollocks to.

"Revisionist = nationalist or IRA supported
Tim Pat Coogan = IRA fraud
Anybody who disagrees with you = bigot, Nationalist, Republican
Irish teachers = bigoted hate=mongers who promote children go go out and kill somebody "

I never have and never would spout such nonsense.
Why must you always lie about me?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 13 - 07:53 AM

You are now making this one of your epics by defending your appalling behavior by lying about it.
This thread as far as I am concerned is dead
I may open a new one on a similar subject, or I hope somebody with genuine interest does - I fervently hope you have the good grace to stay away from it and not use it as another of your hate soapboxes
Jim Carrol

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Sep 13 - 09:13 AM

There is no hate in my posts.
Hate drips from yours with all their nasty malicious name calling, abuse and false accusations to which I never replied in kind.

There is also hate in your determination to claim, as you did again yesterday, "That the British were to blame for the outcome of the famine is now beyond reasonable argument and is fully accepted,"

It is not.
You know it is not.
You have destroyed this thread be arguing that falsehood interminably against the demonstrable fact that historians do not accept it.

You are an obsessed, hate filled man Jim.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: MartinRyan
Date: 01 Sep 13 - 06:48 PM

FFS lads, give over - this is beyond boring.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mg
Date: 01 Sep 13 - 08:57 PM

were you wrong to post? No, not the first 10, 20 or so times. After 50 or so posts, probably more like 100, it is still not wrong but it certainly seems like an OCD behavior responding to other OCD behavior in an endless cycle that has effectively shut down all conversation on the subject.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 13 - 02:36 AM

"FFS lads, give over - this is beyond boring." + mg
Couldn't agree more with both of you but this now goes beyond the subject of this thread and concerns forum etiquette.
As far as I'm concerned, this subject, which interests me greatly, has been made un-discussable by the limpet-like behaviour of somebody with no interest in, and no knowledge of it - it's not the first time this has happened.
Sorry if I have been part of destroying this thread, but the only alternative was to abandon it altogether.
I have tried to participate with my understanding of the subject - you both may judge whether that is the case for yourselves.
If this forum is to be open to such (IMO) abuse I quite honestly don't know if I want to continue to be part of it - what's the point?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mg
Date: 02 Sep 13 - 04:31 PM

You have a lot to offer but you are beating a dead horse. If you would go on to post what you know about, other than the revisionist topic, it would open up the conversation. You can let responses die, or you can respond to every single one with what looks to me as an interested observer with essentially the same response over and over. I am interested in what you have to say but not on the revisionist theme. I think it has gone back and forth more than enough times for people to extract what information is contained on either side and just move on if you are able to let it go. If not, I think it is OCD and not much can be done.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Sep 13 - 04:56 PM

Please could you exchange email addresses and maybe keep in touch with each other that way?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 12:21 AM

Quite honestly I have no wish to have any contact with Keith - he raelly has proved himself bad news on this and other threads.
Nor have I any interest in "revisionist" or any other particular label; they tend to be ways of avoiding discussing the nitty-gritty of what happened; which basically was, as far as I can see:
In 1845 Ireland had a potato blight in which lasted until the end of the decade, Britain mis-handled it, some say deliberately, a million people starved to death and four times that number were forced to emigrate, leaving Ireland in an appalling state. Emigration has been a lasting legacy of those events.
The facts of the events have not been discussed fully in Ireland in any detail, largely out of political sensitivity and other distractions, but the Famine remains deeply entrenched in Irish national culture, history and folklore.
Woodham Smith's book is a reliable starting point, and novels such as Liam O'Flahery's 'Famine' dramatise the oral history side of things excellently and provide a superb introduction to the subject - Joseph O'Connor's 'Star of the Sea' is an interesting recent addition to this side of the literature.
The 150th anniversary produced a plethora of works on the famine, many of them dealing with local experiences.
Cathal Póirtéir's 'The Great Irish Famine', a series of essays by a number of writers provides an excellent overview and his 'Famine Echoes' is a superb and sometimes harrowing collection of contemporary oral accounts from people all over Ireland who experienced the famine firsthand.
The most recent major work is the recently published and magnificently produced 'Atlas of the Great Irish Famine'.
I don't know where you both are, but I have just learned that there is a presentation on the subject with four speakers including Tim Pat Coogan, at the Pearse Street Library in Dublin on Friday 27th September as part of Dublin's 'Culture Night' - we'll certainly be there.
I would be more than happy to continue with this exchange of knowledge and opinions as long as it can be kept free of agendas that have nothing to do with the subject - there is a great deal that hasn't been touched on.
It is a subject that is very much a part of the history of many people on this forum and it it is criminal that has been allowed to degenerate into a squalid squabble - apologies for my part in that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mg
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 12:34 AM

good. i would like to hear more along these lines. and time can not be wasted in terms of finding ussut who knows what..what bits of stories remain on both sides of the atlantic as well as elsewhere..why do i see irish names coming from russia for example. where did people go? a whole whack of dingle people ended up in clermont, iowa, following canal work. the next graveyard over seemed almost all from county monaghan..numbers there too ended up in pei. how many ended up in newfoundland..it is said that most were there prefamine but i am not sure that is totally true..some ships were said to be refused in new york and sent to st.; john's. people came from dingle to butte montana and springfield and chicopee ma..where else do we know groups went to..

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 02:10 AM

An excellent work on emigration, again from Tim Pat Coogan, is Wherever Green is Worn.
The novels and autobiographical works of writers such as Donal McCauley and Patrick McGill have much information of what happened in post famine days.
I picked up a fascinating book of personal interest entitled 'Autobiography of a Liverpool Irish Slummy'
The famine emigrations must be particularly difficult to trace because of the manner in which they left and the great number involved - the bombardment of the Four Courts records office during the Irish Civil War didn't help.
My own family left Ireland during the famine, some of the men became merchant seamen - one of them drowned in New York Harbour after getting drunk and 'trying to walk ashore' for a visit.
My Great, great grandfather took the course many emigrants did and joined the British Army - his postings abroad make it difficult to trace that particular thread, as a cousin has recently discovered.
Perhaps a compiling of personal Family Trees might help fill out some details.
One of the most interesting pieces of research (not connected with the famine) I have ever come across was pointed out to me by my late friend Tom Munnelly, who stumbled across it on the 'net'.
Is was by an Australian woman, Sheila Downes, who had been researching her family history when she came across information on her great - great - great grandfather.
He was involved a fight in the next village to here, Quilty, when a crowd of 'Wren Boys' celebrating St Stephen's Day went out playing music and collecting money for what they called locally 'The Scrap Dance', a local tradition.   
The fight had broken out and a man was killed, he was arrested and sentenced to be deported to Australia.
The lady researched the details of the fight, the court case, the voyage and the convict settlement he ended up in - a stunning piece of local history and an example of what lies out there.
One of the most poignant stories we ever recorded came from local fiddle player, Martin 'Junior' Crehan - he told it as he told one of his traditional tales.
Again it concerns a 'Wren' party, and tells of four men who set out one freezing winter during particularly hard times here in Ireland.
They travelled north from here visiting cottages and farms along the way, playing music and collecting money as they went, but they found the going particularly hard because of the state of the economy at the time.
They kept going till it became too dark to return home, so they pushed on north over the next few days until they finally reached Galway where they used what they had collected to buy a cheap passage to America and never returned to Ireland - 'The Wren that Went to America' Junior called it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 02:42 AM

Thanks for that Jim.
Really interesting stuff.
It brings home the reality.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Martin
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 08:03 AM

Another good book to add to the list (if it hasn't aleady):

"This book presents, for the first time, a detailed analysis of the context, course, causes and consequences of the mass evictions in Kilrush Poor Law union during the Great Famine. "

http://eprint.ie/product.php?intProductID=104

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 01:57 PM

Very interesting stuff.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mg
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 02:01 PM

Where is Crehan from? It is a family name and is mentioned in two of my songs. Only know they are from County Kerry...Crehans seem to cluster in Blasket Islands and Annascoul..name is spelled many ways, and goes into Crogan, McCrogan, all sorts of things within a couple of generations.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 08:29 PM

I wonder if this thread content was actually improved by moving it above the line? Personally, I never saw the content reason why that was decision was made, as it seems to have minimal music content and is mostly BS?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 03:53 AM

"Where is Crehan from? It is a family name and is mentioned in two of my songs. "
Martin 'Junior' Crehan was from just outside Miltown Malbay in County Clare, he was one of the key figures in the survival of Irish music in the County and it is very much thanks to him that Clare is now known as 'the home of traditional music'
He was one of the founders of the Willie Clancy Summer School - its first treasurer, I think.
He was an amazing man, fiddle player and concertina player, storyteller, singer and lore-bearer, he and his immediate family were key figures in the music scene here.
He was a friend of the late Bobby Caeey of Clare and London, they were neighbors, grew up together and learned music from the same music teacher.
His family released a double CD of his playing, 'The Last House in Bonnevella' following his death in 1998, aged 90 and there is a 2 part article based on interviews with him by the late Tom Munnelly in the folklore journal Bealoideas.
There is a branch of the Clare Crehans in Dublin, also known for their music.
"I never saw the content reason why that was decision was made,"
I was happy when it was - there is a huge folklore and music side to the famine that has never really been examined in depth - many of the emigration songs, which make up a large part of the Irish repertoire rise from the famine era.
It's one of the aspect I was hoping to see covered on this thread, unfortunately that never happened.
Looking from our window we can see the local famine 'county home' (workhouse), still occupied by a family, where, it was said, on some nights the 'death coach', the (roughly - cant find correct spelling) cuich da barra, (Coach-A-Bower in US http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/FOLKLORE/2000-05/0957477798 ) can be seen picking up customers.
One of the local stories here was of a time when carts went around picking up the dead from the roadside and taking them to the Ballard Road graveyard up the hill over the town.
On cart, piled with bodies made the turn from the main street onto the road when a body fell of and rolled to the side of the road ourside the blacksmith's shop - still intact as a building.
The blacksmith came out to help and found the 'corpse' was not dead, so he brought the victim in, nursed him back to health and employed him as an assistant until his 'real' death fourteen years later.
The place is bristling with such stories, 'The Hungry Grass', the 'soupers' and their schools.... a small part of huge, largely untouched tradition.
As I said, plenty to be covered yet
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 04:00 AM

Sorry - should be Bobby Casey.
An additional book of interest is 'The Famine Ships' The Irish exodus to America, 1845-51, by Edward Laxton (1996)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 02:10 PM

Not challenging the closing of Stalin, but it ended with a number of people putting points to me.
May I answer please.

Jim,
On both threads he became contemptuous of those who disagreed with him

Not true I never did.
All I ever said was that some historians differ, and they do.
I never expressed any opinion about the famine at all.

Puzzled, I have read no Irish history books, but plenty of statements by historians some of which I have quoted, challenging Jim's view.

The Emeritus Professor of economic and social history, Queens Belfast, said "no reputable historian" believes that.

Musket, when discussing history beyond living memory, historians are the only source.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 02:32 PM

For someone who explicitly states " I have read no Irish history books" to even venture an opinion is, to me, just trying to ferment trouble. He knows little and cares less.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 03:07 PM

I do not need to have read a book to know that some historians do not apportion blame, never mind say it was deliberate.
I have provided some unequivocal quotes that prove it to be true.
Did you read what Liam Kennedy said?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 03:32 PM

"On both threads he became contemptuous of those who disagreed with him"
"Not true I never did."
Will go through the second thread when I get time
Jim Carroll

Their findings do not support your prejudice.
Historical truth has no value to a prejudiced bigot
You believe what you believe because of your prejudice.
The historical truth must not get in the way.
I dared to say that the nationalist version is not universally accepted, and your reaction has been near hysterical.
Pages and pages of multicoloured text and wild accusations.
What does that say about you Jim?
Rational?
Fair?
Unbiased?
Unprejudiced?
You need excuses and justification for your prejudice, and if eighty years of consensus is not enough for you, you are destined to die still loathing us.
Good luck with it Jim.
The professional historians, who have dedicated their whole lives to the study of all the data and contemporary sources from the period, are quite clear that your old, outmoded nationalist propagandist stories are false.
If you need a peg on which to hang your irrational hatred of us, you will have to find something else.
That is the version of history that was exclusively given in this thread, apart from my 3 short extracts, even though historians have recognised for over eighty years now that it is false.
And look at how angry it has made some of you just to have the accepted version of history just briefly referred to.
That is true Jim, and you say I should not have, because you do not like it.
You would suppress the dominant views of historians.
That is as fascist as it comes.
All shite.
No evidence.
No truth.
Please explain clearly why the dominant views of historians should not be even considered, and why you want them suppressed.
That different view is now widely held by historians of the period.
If you were not aware of that fact, you should be grateful for the education.
Would you ban that Jim?
That is, as I said, shite.
No evidence for it and no truth in it.
Just Today's Troll.
All shite.
No evidence.
No truth.
You have destroyed this thread be arguing that falsehood interminably against the demonstrable fact that historians do not accept it.
You are an obsessed, hate filled man Jim.
Do you get it now or shall I explain it again?
For all his reading, Jim was completely unaware of those facts, and dear old Grumpy had the terms "nationalist" and "revisionist" the wrong way round.
You have demonstrated your profound ignorance of the whole issue.
You have made a complete ARSE of yourself.
You will find that my understanding was and is correct.
Did you make that up?
Did you mean to expose your ignorance so publicly.
How does it make you feel?
Grumpy Grumpy?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 03:44 PM

I was not being contemptuous of your belief.
I was being contemptuous of your refusal to accept that there are other legitimate views that can be supported by the historical evidence.
Many historians do not share your view.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 03:50 PM

"I was not being contemptuous of your belief."
A few more to be going on with
Jim Carroll
And obviously you know much more about History than those mere professional and academic historians.
"Those historians should know better" as you are want to say.
Many people have a vested interest in keeping hate alive, and are prepared to use false History to do so.
I know you that think you know more about History than historians, but I do not join in your self-adulation and aggrandisement.
She also explains the difference which you so struggle to understand.
With people like you on the forum, ordinary decent people fear to put a view in case it brings down on them that shit storm of mindless abuse.
You people have deprived Mudcat of somewhere to exchange views.
Not even putting up the other case, but just daring to state there is one produces a shit-storm of foul-mouthed abuse, vilification and ridicule.
The forum used to be a better place.
You three are, as ever, WRONG, and all the offensive and gratuitous abuse and name calling in the world can not hide your ignorance of the truth.
Do you three sillies get it yet?
You wanna ignore" historians' conclusions on contemporary accounts?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 03:52 PM

"I was being contemptuous of your refusal to accept that there are other legitimate views that can be supported by the historical evidence"

" I have no view on the famine and always acknowledged that I am not read on Irish history."

Make your f*****g mind up.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 03:56 PM

Guest, I have no opinion on the famine.
Jim may be right, but I observe that that Jim's view is not accepted by all, or even most historians.

What is your confusion?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 04:26 PM

How do you know, you've already said you know nothing about the subject?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 04:51 PM

I know that many historians do not agree with Jim.
I have actually quoted them in recent days, e.g.

Here historian Liam Kennedy rips him to shreds over the idea that it was deliberate.
http://www.drb.ie/blog/writers-and-artists/2013/02/25/was-the-famine-a-genocide-

Here he says, "In the case of the Great Famine no reputable historian believes that the British state intended the destruction of the Irish people, "
http://www.qub.ac.uk/sites/irishhistorylive/IrishHistoryResources/Articlesandlecturesbyourteachingstaff/TheGreatIrishFamineandth

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: MartinRyan
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 04:57 PM

If there's one thing worse than confusing history with folklore, it's confusing folklore with history...


Zzzzzzzzz.............

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: michaelr
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 05:00 PM

Please, guys, just give it a rest already.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 07:50 PM

"Please, guys, just give it a rest already."
I'm totally with Michaelr and Martin on this
Not only does this clown drag this argument over two threads on a subject on which he says he knows nothing, nor is interested in, but he reopens it and continues the argument with a lie - that he didn't express contempt for any of us.
His arrogance and ignorance had destroyed thread after thread to the stage that people feel they need to insult him   - the overseers, unfortunately, choose to close threads down rather than warn him about his behaviour.
Can't speak for anybody else, but I've had enough.
All the the topics I involve myself in interest me - I know a little about most of them and more than a little about some of them.
We have been subjected to a string of contempt that he has shown towards anybody who disagree with him on something he says he knows nothing on and which he also says doesn't interest him - I bore the brunt of much of that contempt.
I grew up with The Irish Famine - both sides of my family were Famine refugees - it is part of my family history - this doesn't mean I am an expert on it, but at least I am aware of some of the details - AND IT INTERESTS ME DEEPLY AS PART OF MY LIFE
I find it deeply insulting to be at the receiving end of some of the invective I have had directed at me by somebody who proudly admits he is neither knowledgeable nor interested in this topic
This feller really isn't going to stop, he is going to continue with this behaviour for as long as he is allowed to get away with it, and the adjudicators apparently find it easier to close threads than to put a check on his behaviour.
I come here to learn from the experience of others, and to share what I do know witrh others - Keith's filibustering makes that impossible (fine when Mr Deeds did it, but not this no-nothing burke)
I suggest that, if he continues, he is left to his own devices - boycotted - not a suggestion I'm entirely happy with, but I can't see any other way to continue getting any degree of pleasure and knowledge from these discussions.
It wouldn't surprise me if this thread is closed before morning - if so, I will circulate this message to those who I feel share my frustration by P.M.
Really had it up to here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 11:00 AM

Jim, you raised this issue on the Stalin thread, not me.
I have never raised it.

The only contempt I expressed over this is your refusal to accept that yours is not the only view.

You know that plenty of historians disagree with your view, because I have put them in front of you, but still you will not acknowledge that fact.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 11:42 AM

Either discuss folklore, history, or music here or leave it alone. You have been warned.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 01:35 PM

If as you claim Professor:

"You know that plenty of historians disagree with your view, because I have put them in front of you, but still you will not acknowledge that fact"

Quote some, from their books and not from cut and paste bits from websites.

You say that plenty disagree with Jim name 10, even name 5, quote from the books of five.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 01:52 PM

I do not have any books, but I am sure they do not contradict themselves in other media such as journals and history sites.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 02:10 PM

Leave it Raggy - this moron has been given exactly what I claim in detail and he has refused to respond to it.
Leave him under his bridge
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 02:28 PM

Not my bridge, please!

I need to re-read this thread (if it is the one I think it is) but I seem to remember that Keith provided some useful information on the situation.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 02:32 PM

So basically Professor you are saying that Jim is wrong because "many" historians agree that he is wrong.

But you cannot cite one of them other than from one cut and paste that you dredged up from a website.

What sort of an argument is that?

Justify whatever it is you put on to this thread.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 02:56 PM

No, I do not say he is wrong.
He may be right.
Some historians agree with him, though one such concedes they are a minority.

My only argument with Jim is that he dismisses any view but his own, ignoring the fact that many if not most historians think he is wrong.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 03:06 PM

"My only argument with Jim is that he dismisses any view but his own, ignoring the fact that many if not most historians think he is wrong"

Prove that statement. Which historians think he is wrong.

Quote them, from books, not from cut and paste.

If there are so many (if not most)as you suggest you should easily be able to find the information in books in the library.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 03:16 PM

Very last time:
Jim Carroll

what exactly are you arguing here Keith?
Didn't Trevelyan make his statements (about both the Irish and the Scots?
Wasn't he the British appointed as advisor on the Famine?
Didn't the Government lock full warehouses and put armed guards on them?
Didn't the Russell's Tory Government dismantle all the relief measures put into place by Peel's administration
Didn't they adopt a laisse faire policy of selling famine relief to impoverished Irish peasants at market prices?
Wasn't the sugestion made by Trevelyan that the Famine was a possible solution to the Irish Question?
Weren't the Irish people given the alternatives, emigrate or starve?
Is it not true that In the worst year of the famine, 'Black '47, boats loaded with relief travelled to and fro between Britain and Ireland without being unloaded in order to push up market priced caused by delaying the supplies?
Which of them is untrue andd which make my arguments "BOLLOCKS" - YOUR WORDS?
Now kindly fuck off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 03:41 PM

jim, do you think that stuff is unknown to the historians that disagree with you?

Rag, The quotes I have supplied are made by historians.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 03:56 PM

Confirming my posts.

Rag,
one cut and paste that you dredged up from a website.

That was the site of the Queens University Belfast History Faculty, of which he is Emeritus Professor of Economic and Social History.

We can be sure that is his view.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 04:21 PM

Professor you made a clear statement that many if not most historians disagree with Jim. In order for statement to have any credence you need to justify it. One cut and paste from the web gives us the viewpoint of one historian, not many and certainly not most.


So give us clear unequivical facts to back up your statement.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 06:44 PM

Well, I've only skimmed over this very fast but I don't think it's the thread I thought it was. Have we not had another thread on this topic that takes us far more accurately into the history over the relevant periods and the change in UK government sort of halfway through?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 06:46 PM

Oh, and here's a twist - http://muslimvillage.com/2014/02/10/48563/muslims-helped-ireland-great-famine/

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 07:43 PM

"Oh, and here's a twist"
Yup - the Muslims supported the victims and the Quakers took up the slack when the Tories closed the workhouses.
Around hear, abot a mile way, the Protestants opened a "soup school" offering famine relief if the children would change their religion.
Funny thing, religion!!
So there you have it Richard - a Northern Ireland (British) historian whose word we have to take (cos Keith won't tell us what he says about the evidence in hand) and a bunch of documented historical facts that make shit of the whole argument.
Waddya think - guilty or not guilty, members of the jury?
Broke my promise and fed the troll
Finished with this garbage.      
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 09:01 AM

Rag,
One cut and paste from the web gives us the viewpoint of one historian, not many and certainly not most.
So give us clear unequivical facts to back up your statement.

I have done that Rag.
It is all in the threads. Look it up yourself.

For now, here is a quote from an historian who does agree with Jim stating that most historians do not, and have not for over eighty years, though believing that will change.

"Revisionism has dominated Irish historiography since the 1930s, and more intensely since the 1960s. However, as a new generation of historians emerges and more research is undertaken, it is unlikely that this domination will continue."
http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/beyond-revisionism-reassessing-the-great-irish-famine/

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 09:29 AM

Remember lads, far better to not provide fuel for the fire :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 10:59 AM

"For now, here is a quote from an historian who does agree with Jim"

Will you stop this lying insanity Keith - you have been given these quotes over and over again with links
If you read what you have linked carefully you will find that Kinealy does nnot support your ideas, on the contrary, she contradicted themm in 1997 and she continues to contradict tham
Go and ******* look up what revisionism means
Jim Carroll

"Moreover, much of this death from the Famine need not have taken place. The Irish Famine was not just caused by food shortages, it was also due to political and economic choices. As a consequence, ideology triumphed over humanity.
In the face of food shortages, relief provided by the government was inadequate. Imports of food were too small to meet the scale of the problem. At the same time, large amounts of food continued to be exported from Ireland. In 1847 – 'Black '47' – 4,000 ships left Ireland, each carrying large cargoes of food to Britain.
Christine Kinealy 1997

"Dr. Christine Kinealy is a Fellow of the University of Liverpool and has taught Irish History at universities in Dublin and Belfast. She is the author of The Great Calamity: The Irish Famine, 1845-52 (Dublin, Gill & Macmillan, 1994).
In A Death-Dealing Famine she "focuses on the key factors which nurtured both policy formulations and the unfolding of events in mid-nineteenth-century Ireland. These include political ideologies, such as the influential doctrine of political economy; providentialist ideas which ordained that the potato blight was a 'judgement of God'; and an opportunistic interpretation of the crisis that viewed the Famine and the consequent social dislocation as an opportunity to reconstruct Irish society" Kinealy also examines the roles of the Irish landlords and merchants, political factions in Westminster and the pivotal role played by civil servants within the British government."
Christine Kinealy 1997

The research of Dr Christine Kinealy on the administration of relief, especially on the operation of the amended Poor Law (1847), amounts to a scathing indictment of the whole approach of the British government to the Famine: 'By implementing a policy which insisted that local resources must be exhausted before an external agency would intervene…despite local advice to the contrary, the Government made suffering an unavoidable consequence …the suffering was exacerbated by the frequent delays in the provision of relief…and by the small quantity of relief provided, which was also of low nutritional value. …' 8    Kinealy shows that some British poor law officials in Ireland were critical of the policies pursued by Trevelyan and Government Ministers. One official, Edward Twistleton, resigned in 1849 on the grounds that 'the destitution here is so horrible and the indifference of the House of Commons to it so manifest, that he is an unfit agent of a policy that must be one of extermination'.
Reference to Christine Kinealy's conclusions 13 October 2011

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 11:28 AM

Jim,
If you read what you have linked carefully you will find that Kinealy does nnot support your ideas,

I do not have any ideas about the famine Jim, and I said that she supports YOUR "nationalist" view of it.
She also states that, although she thinks it will change, the "revisionist" view is dominant and has been since the the thirties.

Dave, if you do not like the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 12:09 PM

" Kinealy does nnot support your ideas,"
On the conrary - you stupid little man
You've just been quotes from her that shows she has no hesitation in blaming the British for the outcome of the famine - you can;'t get clearer than:
" The Irish Famine was not just caused by food shortages, it was also due to political and economic choices. As a consequence, ideology triumphed over humanity."
Your article is not about the causes of the Famine, but of Kinealy's criticism of how history was taught - your article actually says that the revisionist approach to history avoids apportioning the blame.
Instead of an analysis of the famine, Irish education adopted the romantic approach, concentrating on Republican heroes like Thomas Davis.
Blame was avoided in schools - Ireland desperately needed a place where their emigrants could settle without trouble - Britain was the logical choice.
When Coogan's book came out which contained Trevelyan's epic attack on the Irish, Kinealy declared herself in support of the view that not only was the outcome the fault of the British, but in fact, the letter indicated that their policy was A deliberate ATTEMPT TO SOLVE "THE IRISH QUESTION".
Read the fucking thing properly and try to understand what she is actually saying and not what you would like it to have said.
You really are an ignorant tosser.
Go read a book
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 12:57 PM

Perhaps theis will help you understand this relatively simple matter
WILL THE REAL CHRISTINE KINEALY PLEASE STAND UP
"My conclusions were not what I expected," she says. "I never imagined I would find that the British knew what was going on. But my interpretation is what my sources have led me to."
"After This Great Calamity was published, Kinealy found herself in the middle of a firestorm, with some claiming that the 1990s (the period leading up to the Peace Process) was no time to rekindle past animosities. She was castigated for questioning the work of historians who had championed the "revisionist" interpretation of the Famine. Revisionists argued that demographic and social forces – like overpopulation and the dependence on the potato – had made the catastrophe inevitable. Some of these writers also minimized the importance of the Famine as a strategic turning point in Irish history. They suggested that other events, like the end of the Napoleonic Wars in 1815 that deflated a boom in Irish agricultural exports, had a greater impact on the development of modern Ireland"

Now perhaps you will let this poor, long-dead corpse of an argument rest in peace!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 01:16 PM

Jim, I said that Kinealy supports you.
I said it twice.
She IS one of the historians that supports your "nationalist" view.
OK?
You misread my posts.

She also states that the "revisionist" view, contradicting yours, is currently dominant among historians and has been since the thirties.

She supports my case that most historians do not agree with you.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 01:26 PM

"Jim, I said that Kinealy supports you."
Oh- for Christ's sake -
"If you read what you have linked carefully you will find that Kinealy does nnot support your ideas,"
Go away Keith - please - you are an embarrassment you yourself
Game- set and match
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 01:39 PM

OK Professor you have quoted one source that AGREES with Jim. I think that is clear.

You then go on to say that " that the "revisionist view, contradicting yours, is currently dominant among historians and has been since the thirties"

You admit you haven't read anything on the subject so how the hell can you make the statement. " She supports my case that most historians do not agree with you"

It is not "your case" you have accepted you don't KNOW anything about the subject.

PS Currently does not mean the last 85 years. You have said as much yourself with regard to WW1

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 01:52 PM

You quote Kinealy here as bing on your side
28 Jul 13 - 07:35 AM

If you have any evidence of who supports what, without ever reading a book, please tell me what they have to say about the following:
Didn't Trevelyan make his statements (about both the Irish and the Scots?
Wasn't he the British appointed as advisor on the Famine?
Didn't the Government lock full warehouses and put armed guards on them?
Didn't the Russell's Tory Government dismantle all the relief measures put into place by Peel's administration
Didn't they adopt a laisse faire policy of selling famine relief to impoverished Irish peasants at market prices?
Wasn't the suggestion made by Trevelyan that the Famine was a possible solution to the Irish Question?
Weren't the Irish people given the alternatives, emigrate or starve?
Is it not true that In the worst year of the famine, 'Black '47, boats loaded with relief travelled to and fro between Britain and Ireland without being unloaded in order to push up market priced caused by delaying the supplies?
What does your British Belfast writer say about them - what does anybody say about them - quotes on the specific items please?
If you have none, what do you think of them - if they are true - then you have no case
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 01:52 PM

You quote Kinealy here as bing on your side
28 Jul 13 - 07:35 AM

If you have any evidence of who supports what, without ever reading a book, please tell me what they have to say about the following:
Didn't Trevelyan make his statements (about both the Irish and the Scots?
Wasn't he the British appointed as advisor on the Famine?
Didn't the Government lock full warehouses and put armed guards on them?
Didn't the Russell's Tory Government dismantle all the relief measures put into place by Peel's administration
Didn't they adopt a laisse faire policy of selling famine relief to impoverished Irish peasants at market prices?
Wasn't the suggestion made by Trevelyan that the Famine was a possible solution to the Irish Question?
Weren't the Irish people given the alternatives, emigrate or starve?
Is it not true that In the worst year of the famine, 'Black '47, boats loaded with relief travelled to and fro between Britain and Ireland without being unloaded in order to push up market priced caused by delaying the supplies?
What does your British Belfast writer say about them - what does anybody say about them - quotes on the specific items please?
If you have none, what do you think of them - if they are true - then you have no case
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 02:02 PM

On my side?
I have no opinion about the famine, but I do know that most historians do not agree with you.
Kinealy concedes that her view (and yours) is NOT the dominant one.

She supports my case that most historians do not agree with you.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 02:06 PM

Quote from these historians, name books written by these historians.

F*****g idiot

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 02:10 PM

Come to think of it even name, lets say five, historians who disagree with Jim. You say that MOST do not agree with him, let us see who they are.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 02:26 PM

Rag, I have quoted many.
I am not going through it again for you.
It is in the threads.

My only case is that not all historians agree with Jim.
Liam Kennedy proves that.
Kinealy goes further saying that historians who agree with her and Jim have been in a minority for eighty years and still are.

She should know!
Who are YOU to contradict HER?

They prove my case that not all historians agree with Jim.
My case is proved.
Thank you.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 02:45 PM

"They prove my case that not all historians agree with Jim.
My case is proved"

But that is NOT your case you stated, clearly " that most historians do not agree with you"

In my book there is one hell of a difference between "NOT ALL" and "MOST"

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 02:56 PM

"They prove my case that not all historians agree with Jim."
Your case was that my and all the others who disagreed with you, ideas were "rubbish"
Would you like that list of insults aimed at proving you were right and we were moronic idiots again?

"Historical truth has no value to a prejudiced bigot"
"The historical truth must not get in the way."
"You need excuses and justification for your prejudice, and if eighty years of consensus is not enough for you, you are destined to die still loathing us"
"If you need a peg on which to hang your irrational hatred of us, you will have to find something else."
"And look at how angry it has made some of you just to have the accepted version of history just briefly referred to."
"That is as fascist as it comes.
"All shite."
"No evidence".
"No truth."

You have now adapted tor claims from "all except the revisionists and "republican fanatics" to "the vast majority", to "most" and now to "not all" - you have retreated faster than Napoleon did from Moscow.
You described be as a Republican fanatic who hated Britain" and you talked down to everybody who suggested you were wrong.
"but I do know that most historians do not agree with you."
You know no such thing - you are lying.
You have no idea what historians believe =- you have admitted you know nothing and you are not interested in the subject - how can you possibly know who thinks what.
You refuse to respond to the evidence that points to British culpability - answer enough.
Try them one at a time:
"Didn't Trevelyan make his statements (about both the Irish and the Scots? Wasn't he the British appointed as advisor on the Famine?"?
I honestly can't remember anybody being prepared to debase and humiliate themself as you have here.
Please feel free to stay away from serious discussions again - it's bad for your image.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 03:05 PM

Your case was that my and all the others who disagreed with you, ideas were "rubbish"

No Jim. You imagined that or made it up.

My only case was always that not all historians agree with Jim.
Liam Kennedy proves that.
Kinealy goes further saying that historians who agree with her and Jim have been in a minority for eighty years and still are.

That means that most do not agree with Jim.

My case is proven.
Thank you.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 07:35 PM

I will ask again, name 5 historians who do not agree with Jim. If, as you so confidently
claim, most historians do not agree with him name them, quote their works.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 04:23 AM

No.
It is all in this thread and no-one wants it all gone over again.
Why expect to be spoon fed Rag? Just read this thread.

Although Irish history is not one of my interests, since this thread I have taken an interest in the historiography of the famine.
There are few if any books on the subject. It is mostly debated in the journals which are available on line.
I have reproduced some of it here.

You can not claim that there are no historians who disagree with Jim.
I have quoted several.

You can not argue with Christine Kinealy who says they are dominant and long have been.

That is my case, and it is proved.
Thank you.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 04:34 AM

You win again eh Keith - we're all gobsmacked
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 04:42 AM

Just for the record Professor there are scores, if not hundreds, of books about the famine. Try walking into an Irish bookshop.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 04:55 AM

Rag,
Just for the record Professor there are scores, if not hundreds, of books about the famine.

I know.
I said few if any on the historiography.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 05:35 AM

My grandmother made wonderful jam.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 05:39 AM

Name five people who liked it.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 06:40 AM

Did you know the anagram of famine was "in fame"?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 06:41 AM

"Just for the record Professor"
Just for the record - Kinealy wrote her remarks on the revisionists being in the majority at the time of the 150th anniversary of the Famine in 1995 - twenty years ago.
That anniversary produced a landslide of books, documentaries, lectures and events on the subject which lasted for at least a decade, and are still appearing.
Her personal view was that she she started as an agnostic as regarding the blame for the famine and her own position now is that, due to her researches, she now firmly believes that it was deliberately used by the Russell Government - a form of ethnic cleansing.
Her writings on revisionism (20 years old) stated that the old view was based on Irish nationalism and the need for Ireland to placate its neighbour (this is the view which Keith appears to be supporting)
Since 1995, the questions of Britain's culpability, in the form of closure of warehouses and workhouses, selling of famine relief at marker prices, export of food from a starving country, mass evictions for non-payment of rent and forced emigrations are all accepted by all historians - that is now what is appearing on our television screens and being taught by teachers and lecturers.
Trevelyan's letter castigating the Irish for their evil and lazy ways and suggesting that the famine should be utilised to rid Ireland of dissident elements, published in Tim Pat Coogan's book, containing has never been contradicted or denied by any historian - it is historical fact - history has moved on, as Kinealy has predicted it would - those who have always claimed that Britain was fully to blame have been vindicated and revisionism as a majority is a thing of the past.
The only single challenge to Coogan's book Keith has been able to come up with is from a British historian who has admitted Britain's culpability for what they did but claims they were not in the position to do anything else - one modern historian - hardly a majority, and one who would say that anyway, wouldn't he - Britain has never accepted full responsibility for what they did during the famine, though even the British Prime Minister has now apologised when he said ".....that one million people should have died in what was then part of the richest and most powerful nation in the world is something that still causes pain as we reflect on it today. Those who governed in London at the time failed their people." - one small step for humanity!
Anybody seriously challenging Britain's blame needs to read what is now being written and argue on the basis of the points Keithj has now been asked to comment on about a dozen times, here and elsewhere.
Chiristine Kinealy is now regarded as one of, if not the leading historian on the subject of the famine - she is not in the minority - she is leader in the field, and her views are unchallenged (except by Keith who is neither knowledgeable or interested, by his own admission - she must be quaking in her boots!!)
Wanna try again Keith: "Didn't Trevelyan make his statements"... etc?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 09:14 AM

The only single challenge to Coogan's book Keith has been able to come up

I have not been trying to find people who disagree with his book, but I am sure there are many historians.

one modern historian - hardly a majority, and one who would say that anyway, wouldn't he

Why would he?
He clearly rejects Coogan's findings. Read how he dismisses them in their debate.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 09:21 AM

It took me two minutes to find another.

"The Famine Plot is most noteworthy for its retro, strongly anti-English stance and for articulating a charge that won't wash but won't go away."
Cormac Ó Gráda is the author of Famine: A Short History (Princeton, 2009)
http://www.historyextra.com/book-review/famine-plot-england%E2%80%99s-role-ireland%E2%80%99s-greatest-tragedy-0

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 09:24 AM

Same link,

"The charge of genocide is rejected in three other books published in a rich period for monographs on the subject: John Kelly's The Graves Are Walking; Enda Delaney's The Curse of Reason; and – most ambitious of all – the multi-authored Atlas of the Great Irish Famine. "

"Coogan rounds up the
usual suspects, but the mortality was neither calculated nor premeditated. In legal parlance, there might be a case for charges of 'manslaughter' or 'wilful neglect' against Wood et al, but the case for premeditated 'murder' is unproven."

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 09:38 AM

"but I am sure there are many historians."
Quote them then - there has not been a single challenge to Coogan's findings and little regarding his conclusion on those findings
All Coogan has don is to provide hard evidence of Britain's intent during the famine - the belief that it was deliberate policy has always been widespread; as Kinealy says, it has been studiously avoided by revisionist Historians, who have based their findings on Nationalism, and by politicians who have taken a pragmatic and opportunistic approach to the question.
"He clearly rejects Coogan's finding"
He's a Brit and Britain has yet to take full responsibility for her actions during the famine, but even he accepts the devastating effect on British policy on the Irish people.
"Read how he dismisses them in their debate."
I listened to the debate - it was curtailed through lack of time and he in no way attempted to deal with Trevelyan's letter and its implications - a sure sign that he had no answer to it.
The fact thar Kinealy is now regarded as the leading expert on the Famine in Ireland is indicative that revisionism has been kicked into touch
The books most respected on the subject here are hers and 'The Graves Are Walking' by John Kelly.
You don't read books on the subject, you are not interested in the subject - your sole interest is in absolving Britain from blame - that has been your stance on all historical and political subject - too late, too late, the maiden cried!!
You really do have no case, nor have you ever had one.
Your only course in convincing anybody you are right is to take the list of Britain's actions you have been given and disprove them individually - each one of them indicates (at the very least) malicious neglect by the Russell Government and almost certainly, deliberate ethnic cleansing - Trevelyan's letter confirms that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 10:08 AM

He's a Brit
No.
Liam Kennedy was born in rural Tipperary.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 10:37 AM

"Liam Kennedy was born in rural Tipperary."
Don't care where he was born - he works for Queens University Belfast
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 10:46 AM

Harry Patch

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 11:20 AM

Miseed a bit:
"he works for Queens University Belfast" and his line is that of the revisionists who set out to either to defend or ignore British culpability (according to Kinealy's definition).
"Harry Patch"
Lovely man Dave but an inveterate liar according to the supporters of W.W.1. who both claimed that soldiers are not to be trusted as they tell lies
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 11:42 AM

Presumably we should dismiss anything said by Kinealy because she is a Brit and spent many years working in British universities, so she must automatically lie about the famine.
Your hatred of British people is offensively racist Jim.

I wonder where Cormac Ó Gráda comes from?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 11:53 AM

Can we move this to BS please, or close it.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 12:16 PM

"Presumably we should dismiss anything s"
Nope - she is a peripatetic historian who is accepted all over the world
You have the facts of the famine - dispute them or provide someone who can
Not going on your "find a historian to hide behind" excursion - address the facts or go away - simple as that.
"Your hatred of British people is offensively racist Jim."
Back to your old "racist" maneuvers again - tell me, has Britain ever accepted responsibility for the famine in any way, other than Blair's apology. again
Kennedy is employed by a British University in Northern Ireland and is putting forward the British argument on the famine - nothing to do with race, any more than criticising British politicians for putting forward British policy.
Stop wriggling and address the points instead of making personal attacks that don't hold water.
You really are something else
I take it you have not been abble to find anything bad to say about Coogan's book?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 12:49 PM

"Can we move this to BS please, or close it."
Sorry Dave, no grounds for closing it apparently, and we've no control over where it's put - doesn't make much difference anyway - all over, bar the shouting
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 12:52 PM

Kennedy is employed by a British University in Northern Ireland and is putting forward the British argument on the famine

There is no "British argument" Jim.
Are you suggesting some kind of conspiracy?
British universities concealing the truth to protect the long dead and somehow persuading their Irish professors to play along!
History professors collude to create a false history, directing their students away from research that might reveal the truth!

Laughable Jim!

And this one is obviously a British spy!
Cormac Ó Gráda is an Irish economist, a professor of economics at University College Dublin, and a prolific author of books and academic papers.
As a historian of economics his most quoted works are on the Irish famine of the late 1840s.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 01:24 PM

"Are you suggesting some kind of conspiracy?"
No - I am suggestion that there are two histories of Ireland - one from the Irish point of view and one from the English - no argument with that, Kinealy points this out in her analysis on revisionism.
Kennedy teaches the Bristish one - that's his job - no conspiracy
If I'd have started quoting chunks of 'The History of The Soviet Union' as officially accepted by The various Soviet Governments (there are three of them), you'd have been the first to throw your toys out of the pram.
If you read his argument on Coogan's book you will see that he states that no historian has ever studied the whole of the Irish Famine (somewhat disingenuous, as he certainly hasn't, so what does he mean - o comments ca be made on the Famine until those making it have studied every aspect of it?)
You seen to have reverted to your contemptuous insulting, which you claim you don't do - so, unless you are going to deal with the undisputed facts of the Famine, as you have been asked to, instead of hiding behind historians you have not read, nor are interested enough ever to do so, I think we're finished here, don't you?
Over and out
Jim Carroll
.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 03:15 PM

"His most quoted works are on the Irish famine of the late 1840s."
His claim to fame is that the Irish peasantry were forced to resort to cannibalism during the Famine
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 08:15 AM

Kennedy teaches the Bristish one - that's his job

No.
His job is professor of history.
Unlike the Soviet Union, there is no official, state approved version of history.
University professors are not directed to pursue any particular school of thought.

You can not dismiss all British historians unless they agree with you.
You can not dismiss all non British historians unless they agree with you.

There are as you say broadly two schools on the famine.
The historians refer to them as nationalist and revisionist, not Irish and English.

The revisionists are dominant and have been since the 1930s.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 08:21 AM

According to your Irish Times, Coogan himself "laments" that his view is "out of favour both in Irish official discourse and in Famine historiography."
http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/polemic-without-plausibility-1.963743

My case proven.
Thank you.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 08:37 AM

Has to try and have the last word doesn't he.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 08:48 AM

Did you know that there are thousands of Charles Manson supporters all over the world? There is a campaign, a web site and everything. Far more people have said he is illegally incarcerated than those who have stated he is a criminal nutcase. As his supporters can be proved to be in the majority it must be true that he is an honourable and much misunderstood person. Makes you think...

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 08:56 AM

Good egg is Charles Ma Son

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 09:03 AM

"His job is professor of history."
For ****'* sake Keith - haven't you taken enough of a battering on this?
There are two views of the Irish Famine - one that it was a natural disaster in which nothing could be done and no blame can be attached - the "revisionist view you have been expounding since day one.
The other is that the outcome of The Famine was due to deliberate neglect and mismanagement -
Kinealy's point in her attack on revisionism gave the reasons for the first as the need to placate Britain - she specifically mentions immigration and The Northern Ireland peace process having been given as an excuse for not apportioning blame, and she urged that a proper examination of the causes of the outcome of the famine needs to be carried out if it is to be fully understood.
Britain has always dismissed claims that its actions led to one million deaths and one million people leaving the country.
As Kinealy points out, the revisionist have always avoided apportioning blame.
For Christ's sake - I don't need to reiterate this - you've been claiming that the revisionist view has been the "majority" one since this started YOU KNOW BLOODY WELL THERE ARE TWO VIEWS OF THE HISTORY OF THE FAMINE - YOU'VE BEEN BASING ALL YOUR CLAIMS ON THAT THE REVISIONIST VIEW IS THE MAJORITY ONE
Since the 150th anniversary of the Famine, the tables have been turned and a mass of fresh study has taken place on the famine -- prior to that, the literature on the subject was incredibly sparse, the most respected one being by an Englishwoman, Mrs Cecil Woodham Smith.
What on earth do you think a review of Coogan's book by an English historian based in Belfast University proves? - England is still very much in the revisionist camp - now the minority.
Lie down - you're dead
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 09:27 AM

Jim, the Irish Times regarded the reviewer as appropriate, so what is your opinion worth?
You can not just dismiss all historians from British universities, except the ones you like.

I did not refer to the damning review anyway, just the quote of Coogan.
It must be true or Coogan would have had it taken down.

When this thread began, you refused to accept that there was any other legitimate view but yours.
You excoriated me for suggesting there was.
You raged at me for putting up a couple of quotes.

Now you can say,
"There are two views of the Irish Famine - one that it was a natural disaster in which nothing could be done and no blame can be attached - the "revisionist view you have been expounding since day one."

Your education is complete, but I never did "expound" either view.

My case was that there are two views. That not all historians agree your view.
You have now accepted it.

Moreover, both Kinealy and Coogan say that your view is a minority and long has been.

My case is more than proved.
Thank you.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 09:31 AM

Dave, first Harry Patch and now Charles Manson!

Anything to say about the famine?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 09:56 AM

Why does this guy have to win everything, did his father beat him as a child? Is it his way of saying I'm a man now I win things.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 10:34 AM

Some interesting points on this WikiHow Article, Guest of 09:56 AM.

Anyone watching the Cricket?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 12:19 PM

But, you can not challenge anything that I have said, and you have nothing to say.
Right you two?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 12:47 PM

What do we know about the travails of our ancestors? I know almost nothing. I had one ggm who travelled as an orphan from Kerry somewhere at the age of 7 or 8. Family presumed dead. No idea how she got here or where she landed...but her obit says she travelled with relatives.   I would like help finding out more.

Also I am curious about DNA studies. We know that relics of the dead are often found..have they done DNA studies? I would like to see it done although many would not.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 03:07 PM

"Jim, the Irish Times regarded the reviewer as appropriate, so what is your opinion worth?"
The Irish Times in a popular newspaper that prints articles from all sides of the political spectrum and does not pick its reviewers because they represent any particular point of view - that's what makes it so interesting.
Show me one criticism of what anybody has challenged, not which newspaper they publish in - the only two you have come up with (after obviously having dredged the net for examples, are to people whoo are employed by British institutions and are peddling the revisionist British line that "we didn't do it"..
You've are now dredging the sewer for your responses (notice I did say argument) "racism" what kind of an individual are you?
You have had the arguments and the documented evidence - stop resorting to personal attacks about how I argue - if you have any disagreement with what I say - show me where it's wrong - you could do this by dismantling the arguments you are refusing to respond to - simple.
Nowhere has Coogan's salient points on the Famine been seriously challenged - most of them were common knowledge which has been ignored for political expediency.
His publishing of the Trevelyan letter has removed any doubt to Britain's reasons for their culpability.
Apart from your two defenders of the British Empire line, the most serious criticism I( have come across on 'The Famine Plot' is that it has no index (I confess, that irritated me too).
You lie when you say "My case was that there are two views."
You have taken sides from the beginning; you have insisted that "the vast majority of historians" hold your view, and you have insulted and abused anybody who dared to disagree with you, using terms like "bollocks" and "shite".
"All shite, no evidence, no truth".
NYou are now making this argument into an open display of self-flagellation - your choice.
Once again, my arguments are these - feel free to disprove them instead of adding even more abuse to your growing pile:
"If you have any evidence of who supports what, without ever reading a book, please tell me what they have to say about the following:
Didn't Trevelyan make his statements (about both the Irish and the Scots?
Wasn't he the British appointed as advisor on the Famine?
Didn't the Government lock full warehouses and put armed guards on them?
Didn't the Russell's Tory Government dismantle all the relief measures put into place by Peel's administration
Didn't they adopt a laisse faire policy of selling famine relief to impoverished Irish peasants at market prices?
Wasn't the suggestion made by Trevelyan that the Famine was a possible solution to the Irish Question?
Weren't the Irish people given the alternatives, emigrate or starve?
Is it not true that In the worst year of the famine, 'Black '47, boats loaded with relief travelled to and fro between Britain and Ireland without being unloaded in order to push up market priced caused by delaying the supplies?"
"I would like help finding out more."
It is becoming easier to trace relatives from Ireland, but it has also become a profit-making industry, hence a shark-infested swimming people.
The famine period is a particularly difficult one as so many left in a hurry, so many died on the journey, or on the Irish roadsides and were buried in unmarked graves.
One of the main obstacles was that many records were destroyed by the bombardment of the registry office during the civil war.
It's always seemed to me that the best start is a visit to the original homeplace and an examination of parish records; local folk- memory often yields some surprising result.
D.N.A studies have taken place for archaeological research, with some fascinating results - not sure how much it has been used in the Genealogical field
Good luck with that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 03:24 PM

Nowhere has Coogan's salient points on the Famine been seriously challenged -

Yes they have.
Most historians do not accept them, as he himself admits.

You lie when you say "My case was that there are two views."
You have taken sides from the beginning;

I do not lie.
From the start I merely claimed that not all historians agree with you.
I did that by quoting a couple.
I never took sides.

you have insisted that "the vast majority of historians" hold your view,

I never, ever claimed ANY VIEW!
Your quote is fake. I never said that.
I did pick up and repeatedly quoted Kinealy's statement that revisionists "dominated."

My only case was always that not all historians agree with you.
I quoted several.
Kinealy goes further saying that historians who agree with her and you have been in a minority for eighty years and still are.
Coogan says the same

That means that most do not agree with you Jim.

My case is proven.
Thank you.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 05:58 PM

In one single post

1." Most historians do not accept them, as he himself admits"

2. "From the start I merely claimed that not all historians agree with you"

3. "My only case was always that not all historians agree with you"

4. "That means that most do not agree with you Jim"

You also state that "I do not lie" the above disproves that quite clearly.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 05:58 PM

In one single post

1." Most historians do not accept them, as he himself admits"

2. "From the start I merely claimed that not all historians agree with you"

3. "My only case was always that not all historians agree with you"

4. "That means that most do not agree with you Jim"

You also state that "I do not lie" the above disproves that quite clearly.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 06:19 PM

Keith AH of Twatford beat this thread about the head and shoulders and it died a well-deserved death over two years ago.

Why

is

anyone

replaying

all

this

crap

with

this

bloody

eejit?

Kee-riste, what is this, "Groudhog Day" at Mudcat?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 08:20 PM

To be going on with
Jim Carroll

"you have insisted that "the vast majority of historians" hold your view"
"Your quote is fake. I never said that."
Most historians take the revisionist view.
The quotes produced on this thread indicated that most historians believe that the government was not responsible for the deaths.
Most historians take the revisionist view.
Al I had and have to say about blame is that most historians, especially the professional, academic ones, challenge it.
"The most rabidly nationalistic and flag wagging quote you can find.
The shouters down are those who did not want to read that most historians do not hold the government culpable.
The famine was a pivotal point in the history of Ireland, but more importantly it was a human catastrophe on a scale that defies the imagination.
The human stories should be told and retold, and never lost.
Grubby politicking and hate mongering should be no part of it.
We have seen that the dominant view among the real historians is that there is no blame and no cause for hatred.
Just sorrow.

""I never, ever claimed ANY VIEW!""
"As for the accusation that the famine was a wicked English plot, that of course is quite absurd; but as in many other things, the emotional myth remains much more powerful than the dull truth"

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 11:17 PM

Jim that quote was of Frank Welsh in his "The Four Nations" and was posted here by GUEST,Allan Conn - PM
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 03:38 AM , NOT ME!

The phrase "the vast majority of historians" has never been used in this thread at all by anyone.

My denials were the truth.
Your accusations false.
As usual you resort to lies and abuse when you lose an argument.

Guest, there is no inconsistency in the statements you highlighted.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 02:49 AM

How come your use of English is so different to the rest of the population. You claim there is no inconsistency in stating that "most historians" or "not all historians" are one and the same. Incidentally how you can claim this not having read a single book on the subject is uttering stupid. Your whole premise is based on reading a few articles on the Internet.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 03:10 AM

Another interesting article from Psychology Today. Not being a psychologist I cannot not say if it is completely relevant but this paragraph certainly rings a bell -

Winning is an outcome. However, when people become obsessed with outcomes, they can lose sight of the journey, lose sight of who they are and how they got there, lose appreciation for the value of people who don't win.

Makes sense of why some people think that winning is more important than the deaths of millions.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 03:12 AM

What I've read on the subject - which admittedly doesn't amount to that much right enough so not claiming to be an expert on the subject - but what I've read on it seems to come down somewhere between the two extreme views. You do see some people claiming that it was a deliberate man made disaster where the British gvt tried to clear Ireland of the Irish - and others who claim there was no fault at all but that it was a natural catastrophe with no fault at anyone's door. Most of what I've read suggests it was a natural disaster which the gvt was slow to act on initially because of the laissez fair political beliefs that the market and society will right itself and the not understanding of the calamity that was taking place. When they did eventually act the situation was pretty overwhelming and still they were hampered by their own political dogma. This was the age of the workhouse etc where the idea that people should get food for nothing other than the fact that they need it did not sit easily with some of the ruling classes. Hence we'll dish out food it you build a road to nowhere but don't expect something for nothing as that'd be the end of society as we know it! So what I've read often does suggest the British gvt could be accused of initial inaction, dogma and stupidity - but not deliberate genocide. The quote from Welsh was in regard to that.

Devine (himself of Irish Catholic stock) writing about the Scottish aspect has some interesting thoughts as to why the famine in Scotland, though still serious, was much less severe than in Ireland. From what I remember he concedes that it affected only part of the country and that the numbers involved were more manageable than the much larger numbers in Ireland however he seems to make two main points. There was not the same stark religious/ethnic divide between all the people involved and the bulk of the land owners. Hence Scottish lairds and chiefs were more likely to help their own people when they could. Also the charities in Edinburgh and Glasgow sprung into action quicker than happened in Ireland. It still resulted in many deaths and of course eventually the depopulation of the glens but not to the same extent as the catastrophe that befell rural Ireland.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 03:33 AM

I posted that last late at night - it was a quick shufti through this thread and a glance at the other
I counted dozens of examples of your claiming that your view is that of the majority - it was in fact adapted from your earlier claims that it was the view of virtually all historians and that it was only the view of fanatical republicans to blame the British.
You compounded this with an attack on the entire Irish people by your accusation that they had been brought up by a fanatical Irish education system to hate Britain
"Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive."
"It seems that generations of Irish schoolchildren have been brainwashed with false history presenting Britain as "villain."
Poisoning children's minds with hatred has cost many lives and much misery and it still goes on."
"I just hate children to be fed propaganda giving them cause to hate."
This is the most disgusting lie you came up with.
The revisionist line, which you have been distorting to support your own uniquely extremist line that Britain bore no blame whatever, was based on not blaming Britain for the outcome of the famine that isn't even the real Revisionist argument - it is your own - the revisionists argue that Britain does bear some degree of responsibility, but puts it down to neglect and ineptitude.
As Kenealy points out, the reason for this has been pragmatism - the necessity to placate a neighbor who Ireland relied on to accept immigrants.
Far from not having a view, the view you have expressed is on of an extremist fanatic who not only claims that Britain bore no blame whatever, but that Irish people have been taught to hate Britain and that is the cause of all the bloodshed over the last century - and utterly sickening accusation and about as extreme as it comes.

More examples of your "not expressing a view"
"You believe a lie pedalled by fanatical nationalists for their own political purposes.
It has been exposed as a lie for more than eighty years, but it is perpetuated and fed to each new generation to sustain the hatred that is the blight that now afflicts the land."
"You believe a lie, not according to me, but according to the profession of historians who have dedicated their whole lives to uncovering the truth of this.
You believe a lie pedalled by fanatical nationalists for their own political purposes.
It has been exposed as a lie for more than eighty years, but it is perpetuated and fed to each new generation to sustain the hatred that is the blight that now afflicts the land."
"The famine was a pivotal point in the history of Ireland, but more importantly it was a human catastrophe on a scale that defies the imagination.
The human stories should be told and retold, and never lost.
Grubby politicking and hate mongering should be no part of it."
"Revisionism has polarised historical debate in Ireland and has stifled the more theoretical and philosophical approach to history which has developed elsewhere. Revisionism has dominated Irish historiography since the 1930s, and more intensely since the 1960s. However, as a new generation of historians emerges and more research is undertaken, it is unlikely that this domination will continue. This is not to say that revisionism in its various guises will disappear.
So, Grumpy and Jim, Revisionism is the "dominant" view among historians, and has been for decades.
How can you possibly object to it being briefly referred to in this thread?
What exactly is my crime?"
"I am not a historian and can add nothing more to this discussion.
We have seen that the dominant view among the real historians is that there is no blame and no cause for hatred.
Just sorrow."
Whatever way you paint them THESE ARE YOUR VIEWS - THE ONES YOU CLAIM NOT TO HAVE EXPRESSED - YOU LIED ABOUT NOT HAVING EXPRESSED A VIEW
Equally, you have lied in your claim that you have only tried to show that there are two sides to the argument and that the quote I gave was a fake - utter nonsense.
There are dozens of examples of your claiming that the view you were putting forward was held by most, if not all serious historians.
From the beginning, you have failed to understand the argument of the revisionists, claiming that I was a revisionist, when in fact my argument was the opposite - the revisionists did not apportion blame, on the contrary, they deliberately avoided doing so.
When I pointed this out you did a screeching U-turn and declared yourself a supporter of revisionism, without fully understanding their arguments.
Your ow view (clearly stated) goes beyond revisionism and is in fact fanatical British nationalism, claiming Britain did nothing wrong during the famine - nobody, revisionist, republican, neutral, and especially the batch of historians who have sprung up since 1995 - every single one of them - even your two British/Northern Ireland historians, believe that Britain bears some responsibility for the outcome of the famine due to the economic line adopted at the time, the speculation in famine relief and the evictions.
The British historians claim that Britain had no alternative - nobody else does - Britain has yet to accept any real responsibility for what happened, Blair came nearest to suggesting they did.
Your argument from day one has been totally dishonest - the only honest thing you have said is that you are ignorant of the subject and are not interested in it.
The lengths you have gone to to defend Britain, given that dishonesty and disinterest, is in itself a deep insult to those of us who are interested in the subject and do possess some knowledge.
If what you state about your ignorance and disinterest, how dare you refer to us as liars, hate mongers, racists... and all the other names you have called us - who the hell do you think you are to abuse anybody in such terms?
You lose an argument by winning over people to your side - you once again, have won no support her - you never have on anything and your claims to have done so are all in your head.
If you continue this, I will carry out a systematic analysis of all you have said and I will compare it to the existing situation of what is now being written on the subject.
I won't do this for your benefit - you have made up your mind on the Famine, which has nothing to do with what actually happened, and your description of the Irish people having been brainwashed with false history presenting Britain as "villain." Poisoning children's minds with hatred has cost many lives and much misery and it still goes on" not only shows the contempt that you hold for them, but is a deeply racist description of any nation - yet another one.
The only thing I have got from arguing with you on this thread (apart from a deep feeling of contempt for your dishonesty) is that you inadvertently introduced me to the writings of Christine Kineally, who you mistakenly though supported your sick arguments, when in fact she was arguing exactly the opposite.
Thanks to you, I have now read two of her books and hope to be picking up the third today.
The fact that she is now the most respected expert on the Famine in Ireland and is respected world-wide is an indication of just how much of a "majority" your view is.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 03:49 AM

Allan, with respect, if your view is to be accepted you need to answer the points that I have been putting to Keith since he reopened this thread
Where does the deliberate closure of warehouses full of food, the continuing export of enough to feed the nation four times over and the delaying tactics in order to push up the market price of famine relief fit into "natural disaster"?
Why was a religious maniac who believed the famine to have been an "act of God to punish the Irish for their evil ways" appointed not only to handle Famine relief but to act as advisor whose opinion was followed to the letter to the Government - how is his suggestion that the famine should be "used to solve the Irish problem" not deliberate ethnic cleansing?
Keith refuses even to refer to any of these points - I hope you don't intend to do the same - it really would be refreshing to discuss them with a degree of sincere honesty.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 03:54 AM

Missed a bit
"The phrase "the vast majority of historians" has never been used in this thread at all by anyone."
The wisg#dom of Keith
"The professional historians who are, overwhelmingly do not agree with you and Coogan"
Vast - overwhelming - whence the difference?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 04:45 AM

You are, as you already know Jim, wasting your time. The Professor has read a few articles on the internet and is now a leading world expert on the Great Famine.

The fact he has no interest he says in the subject and the fact he has not read a single book on the subject have absolutely no bearing on the matter.

He is certain that what he has read is the "gospel" and as such it cannot be argued against.

Sadly the only real "loser" in this is the Professor as he is missing out on a fascinating period of history, not only of Ireland but of Britain too.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 04:52 AM

Guest,
You claim there is no inconsistency in stating that "most historians" or "not all historians" are one and the same.

Not claimed.
My case was that not all historians agree with Jim.
Later it emerged that most do not.

Incidentally how you can claim this not having read a single book on the subject is uttering stupid.
It is not one of my interests. Sorry

Jim,
I counted dozens of examples of your claiming that your view is that of the majority
It is not my view, never has been and never been claimed.

Do not put things in quotes and ascribe them to me if I never said them.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 05:00 AM

On the second day I joined the debate I posted this,

"If you mean the "traditional" or "nationalist" history, I did not complain about it.
I just showed that it was not the only view.
Was I wrong to provide a couple of extracts, after all the pages of stuff that Jim has put up?"

All i have ever done is show that not all historians agree with you Jim.
It later emerged that most do not.
Overwhelmingly.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 05:15 AM

You idiot "My case was that not all historians agree with Jim. Later it emerged that most do not"

You don't even know how many books have been written about the subject, you haven't even read ONE.

You have absolutely no knowledge on which to base your bizarre postings.

Next time you are in Ireland (ha) try visiting a bookshop they will almost certainly have a large section specifically regarding Irish History and a good proportion of that will be regarding the Great Famine.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 05:22 AM

Incidentally Dave, I think you might be correct. A Psychiatrist could be a good starting point, the man is clearly in need of help.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 05:36 AM

"My case was that not all historians agree with Jim."
Your claim is that the majority of historians My case was that not all historians don't agree with Jim. agree with Jim - stop lying
In fact, the revisionist view of history has been in the minority since the 150th anniversary of the Famine which inspired a fresh look at the events and is now debating the causes.
"It is not one of my interests. Sorry"
Then you have no right to drag out this thread as you have and you certainly have no right to insult those of us who do have an interest - sorry.
"It is not my view, never has been and never been claimed."
You have made that claim numerous times - sorry
""The professional historians who are, overwhelmingly do not agree with you and Coogan"
"Do not put things in quotes and ascribe them to me if I never said them."
Has this been posted by a troll then.
or this
"whose history is "80 years out-of-date" and the majority of modern historians who have claimed the old version to be false"
or this
"We are told that revisionists have long been the majority"
"The majority do not and have not for over eighty years."
or this
"The majority do not and have not for over eighty years."
or this
"Should we believe a Wiki entry "The vast majority of historians place the murderous outcome of the famine firmly at the door of the Whig Government" that directly contradicts what the actual historians actually state?"
or this
"The majority are revisionists and reject that."
"We are told that revisionists have long been the majority."
Or this
You have had the facts on historians. Most do not support your version of events.
Or this
There is debate and most historians now do not find Britain culpable.
Or this
"So, does anyone deny that there is historical debate, and right now most historians do not find that Britain can be held culpable?"
Or this
As does the direction to Irish (and NY) schools to teach that Britain was culpable even though it can not be justified in the opinion of most historians.
Or this
Musket, I have no opinion but I note that most historians do not apportion blame
Or this
Yes there is. Most historians.
Or this
Why decree they teach a version of events that most historians do not support? The result in Ireland has been that many people, like Jim, are unaware that the issue is even disputed.
Or this
Jim, you are still posting at great length a version of events that you conceded is not endorsed by most historians!
Or this
Yes, but as you agreed, most historians deny culpability. You are posting vast acreages of a minority opinion.
Or this
From he in response to another of your lies
"Jim, you are still posting at great length a version of events that you conceded is not endorsed by most historians!"
By the way - where on earth have I ever conceded that my view is not endorsed by most historians"


"My case was that not all historians agree with Jim.
Later it emerged that most do not."
Anther lie - it as emerged that over the last twenty years the revisionist view that let Britain off the hook has been re-examined and the revisionists are now in the minority - you have been reduced to only 2 examples of British historians to make your case.
Perhaps if you stop lying, those of us who are genuinely interested in the subject can continue, if we should so wish
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 05:43 AM

Didn't notice this - is it not "overwhelming" proof that you are lying?
"All i have ever done is show that not all historians agree with you Jim.
It later emerged that most do not. Overwhelmingly."
You say you are not claiming that the majority oppose my view then state that they do - in the same post - unbelievable!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 05:56 AM

Rag,
You have absolutely no knowledge on which to base your bizarre postings.

I have quoted historians who disagree with Jim.
That proved my case.
I also quoted an historian and also Coogan saying that most disagree.
There are few if any books on the historiography of the famine anyway.
The discussion is mostly in the journals and available on line.

Jim,
In fact, the revisionist view of history has been in the minority since the 150th anniversary of the Famine

I have quoted Kinealy and Coogan contradicting that statement Jim.

I posted this on 17 Jul 13 - 01:50 PM,
Two days into my contribution.
It is unequivocal that I support neither view.
If you say I do, you are lying.

"I myself am not a historian and am not qualified to say whether the nationalist or revisionist version are more accurate.
You think you are, and condemn me for just reporting it.
You would have those historians silenced?
Their books burned?"

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 06:01 AM

You say you are not claiming that the majority oppose my view than state that they do - in the same post - unbelievable!!

Jim, concentrate.
I claimed and proved that not all agree with you.
I later learned that Coogan and Kinealy say most do not, and I believe them.

I was obviously right that some disagree with you.
I quoted some.
Coogan and Kinealy know better than you how many.

Do you understand now?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 06:12 AM

"I have quoted Kinealy and Coogan contradicting that statement Jim."
Stop lying
It has been pointed out that Kinealy's statement is twenty years old and that since then, opinion has swung the other way.
Coogan has commented that his producing the Trevelyan letter has not been acted on yet - nothing more.
Nowhere has it been contradicted, nor have any other of the points you refuse to respond to that is my view.
As far as the 'ethnic cleansing' aspect of the Famine, like Kineally, I entered this argument as an agnostic (and said so) - I am now convinced.
Nobody has seriously challenged Coogan's findings apart from your two British-based historians, who remain revisionists.   
I have given you a long list of your having clearly stated that the majority of (or most) historians disagree with what I have to say - you continue to lie about it
Have you no self respect, or are all those examples fakes?
You continue to ignore the undisputed facts of the famine - so I will continue to remind you.
I suppose you will continue to respond to your racism tow3ards the Irish people - I will take great pleasure of reminding you of that particular foot-in-mouth for the foreseeable future - something to see us through the next couple of winters
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 06:19 AM

Games with undisclosed rules.

Mornington Crescent is mentioned but Mudcat threads about history are sadly omitted.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 06:45 AM

Goodness, I hope this isn't going to go on for another couple of winters, it was supposed to be all finished in August 2013, and again about a week ago. Allen Conn tries to add some sanity, reason and balance, and even he is shouted down. Its an argument about history, there are going to be different views, what gets me is that you are not even arguing over who is right, but over who is in the majority. Academic disputes are not settled by a show of hands, but by evidence and analysis, which only Allen on this thread has tried.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 06:53 AM

"and even he is shouted down."
No whe wasn't (don't start Keith's tricks)
He was asked to justify his argument in a perfectly polite and respectful manner
Why do people behave like this in these discussion - beyond me?
As you say. disputes are not settled by a show of hands - they are settled (hopefully) by an honest presentation of views and and equally honest discussion of those views.
Perhaps you might explain how Allan was "shouted down"?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 08:05 AM

jim,
It has been pointed out that Kinealy's statement is twenty years old and that since then, opinion has swung the other way

You assert it has swung since then.
Any evidence?
According to your Irish Times, Coogan himself "laments" that his view is "out of favour both in Irish official discourse and in Famine historiography."
That was published in 2013, not twenty years ago.

Nobody has seriously challenged Coogan's findings apart from your two British-based historians, who remain revisionists.

That is false Jim.
I have also quoted Cormac Ó Gráda, who is an Irish historian at an Irish university.
I could have quoted ROBIN HAINES a Visiting Senior Research Fellow at the Faculty of Social Science, Flinders University, Australia.
If I looked I know I could find more.

Nowhere has it been contradicted, nor have any other of the points you refuse to respond to that is my view.

As I keep telling you, I am not able to discuss the history with you.
Suffice that the historians know everything you know, plus a lot more, and most still disagree with you.

I have given you a long list of your having clearly stated that the majority of (or most) historians disagree with what I have to say - you continue to lie about it

I do not deny that!
It is true!
I deny supporting any particular view on the famine.

You continue to ignore the undisputed facts of the famine

They are not undisputed.
Most historians dispute them.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 08:21 AM

Why not quote from a book you have read instead of taking sound bites from the web

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 09:09 AM

Are there any books on the historiography of the famine?
Can you recommend any?
My impression is that all the discussion is in articles which are available on line.
Do you know different Guest?

Historians will not be contradicting in articles what they say in their books.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 09:11 AM

"You assert it has swung since then. Any evidence?"
Kineally is the undisputed leading expert ion the subject - there is no argument as to her work and there is no serious opposition to Tim Pat Coogan's claims in The Famine Plot, apart from your two British historians.
An interest in the subject was revived shortly before we moved here and has still not abated - there has been a shift from dealing with the Famine as a natural disaster to one of a political one.
Prior to the anniversary commemoration there were two in-depth books on the famine, Mrs Woodham Smith's 'The Great Hunger' (as you say, a revisionist one, which criticised Britain's policy on all those subjects you refuse to respond to, but did not apportion full blame).
The other is entitled, 'Paddy's Lamentation - Ireland 1846-47', by Thomas Gallagher, which dealt largely with the effect that the famine had on British-Irish relations.
This is what Gallagher had to say about Trevelyan.
"Sir Charles Trevelyan remarked in 1846 that "the great evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people. " He then turned not to "popery" or to the "idolatry" of the Roman Catholic Church but to God Himself, that Great Disposer of Events, whose intentions were as unfathomable as they were holy and unassailable, and attributed the famine to Him. Since the Almighty had willed it, the English government would be presumptuous indeed to attempt any rash or precipitous solution. The Irish problem and overpopulation were, in his eyes, one and the same, and "being altogether beyond the power of man, the cure had been applied by the direct stroke of an all-wise Providence in a manner as unexpected and as unthought of as it is likely to be effectual. "
Later, in 1848, he admitted that the matter was "awfully serious, " but added, "we are in the hands of Providence, without a possibility of averting the catastrophe if it is to happen. " By then, though another half-million Irish had died, what Trevelyan perceived as catastrophe had still not happened. Obviously prepared to see the entire population wiped out, he said, "We can only wait the result. " He even went so far as to pity the Irish for not appreciating the hopelessness of their situation: "It is hard upon the poor people that they should be deprived of knowing that they are suffering from an affliction of God's providence."
All other books dealt with the effects of the Famine. particularly emigration, but nowhere is there any dispute about the disastrous effect of British policy on the Irish people - not even from the revisionist camp.   
You quote for historians as a "majority" - two based in Northern Ireland and arguing the revisionist line, one who sets out to exonerate Sir Charles Trevelyan and Cormac Ó Gráda, whose field of expertise was Famine in general, and whose claim to fame was pointing out that the Irish were forced to revert to cannibalism to stay alive during the period.
This is from a summing up of his book.
"
The Irish Famine of 1846–50 was one of the great disasters of the nineteenth century, whose notoriety spreads as far as the mass emigration which followed it. Cormac O'Gráda's concise survey suggests that a proper understanding of the disaster requires an analysis of the Irish economy before the invasion of the potato-killing fungus, Phytophthora infestans, highlighting Irish poverty and the importance of the potato, but also finding signs of economic progress before the Famine. Despite the massive decline in availability of food, the huge death toll of one million (from a population of 8.5 million) was hardly inevitable; there are grounds for supporting the view that a less doctrinaire attitude to famine relief would have saved many lives. This book provides an up-to-date introduction by a leading expert to an event of major importance in the history of nineteenth-century Ireland and Britain.""
"As I keep telling you, I am not able to discuss the history with you."
You are discussing history with me, despite the fact that you have not read anything on the subject, you have no knowledge on it and you are not even interested in it
It is sheer, breathtaking arrogance that you should go on for the length of time you have and made the dismissive and insulting statements that you have on something that you admit you know nothing about, nor are interested in finding out about - this is sheer insanity.
If you claim there is a majority absolving Britain from blame - it is up to you to prove there is.
The revisionist claim was basewd on two books and very little else - now there are several dozens available on all aspects of the famine
"Suffice that the historians know everything you know"
Then quote them on my arguments instead of hiding behind your self confessed ignorance and disinterest.
"I deny supporting any particular view on the famine."
Deny away - you have been presented with a list of examples of that support- making your claims open lies.
As you now appear to be out of the closet in your claim of a majority, I assume you are withdrawing your denying ever to have claimed suuch a thing
"My denials were the truth. Your accusations false."
Get a grip Keith - especially on reality.
You cannot hide behind historians you have not read, despite your attempts to do so on everything
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 09:23 AM

there is no serious opposition to Tim Pat Coogan's claims in The Famine Plot,

Yes there is.
If you make assertions you should support them.

"and of course, the afore mentioned Famine Plot, by T.P. Coogan, continue to act as reference points for this kind of argument. Their theses have been often been dismissed by other academics as not providing the reader with a true historical account of events. (The most recent bout taking place between Professor Liam Kennedy ofQueens University Belfast and Tim Pat Coogan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YTOXoyhXvY)"
http://www.theirishstory.com/2013/07/02/the-enduring-appeal-of-the-irish-famine-the-third-annual-international-famine-conference

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 09:32 AM

So you don't want to actually read a book (no surprise there) you want someone else to read the books and then give you a summary. That I'm afraid seems typical of your approach to history in general.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 09:50 AM

No Guest.
Irish history is not an interest of mine, but you do not need to read books to know that culpability for the famine is disputed among historians.

I intervened in this thread because only one side was being presented, and presented as if undisputed fact.
It is not and I said so.

Jim has been raging about that ever since, but he can not deny that some historians disagree.
I have quoted them.

The fact that a majority disagree came from his two favourites, Kinealy and Coogan.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 10:00 AM

Oh SOME historians now is it, not most or the vast majority as you have previously stated. I don't think Jim Carroll has ever said that ALL historians hold one view. If you can point out precisely where he says that I'm sure we would take note.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 10:24 AM

That I'm afraid seems typical of your approach to history in general.

That's his approach to LIFE in general.

And apparently it IS "Groundhog Day" at Mudcat.

Or is that Mudcat Day at Groundhog?.......

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 11:18 AM

"Yes there is. If you make assertions you should support them."
How on earth can I prove what doesn't exist?
If you say there is, it's up to you to produce them - you have produced one single debate with a British based historian
THE ECONOMIST
(not sure this will open fully -I'm a subscriber - If it doesn't, I'll cut and paste the whole positive review.)
JOHN MURPHY HISTORIAN
REVIEW
IRISH INDEPENDENT REVIEW
Review U.S.
Review

" I don't think Jim Carroll has ever said that ALL historians hold one view."
He hasn't - more distortions by Keith - he seems totally incapable of telling the truth
Right - you're out Keith
Unless you are prepared to take your arguments seriously and back them with facts instead of distortions, I have no more to say to someone who admits they know nothing, nor are they interested in acquiring knowledge
When I get time, I'll do what I said I'd do this morning and summarise my understanding on what has happened since 1995.
Feel free to stay silent - any intervention on your part on the level you have displayed so far will be ignored.
You've blocked this drain for far too long with your "ignorance" and "disinterest".
"The fact that a majority disagree came from his two favourites, Kinealy and Coogan."
Just a reminder - you introduced Kineally to this argument - you declared "she knows more than all of us"
She blew up in your face and now she is my "favourite" all of a sudden.
As I said - no self respect
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 11:45 AM

Guest,
Oh SOME historians now is it, not most or the vast majority as you have previously stated.

Look at the start of this thread.
My case was that some historians disagreed.
Then Kinealy's statement emerged that it was most of them.

Jim,
If you say there is, it's up to you to produce them - you have produced one single debate with a British based historian

No.
I have produced a number of examples.
Kinealy said revisionism was dominant.
You assert that has changed. On what evidence?
We have a recent statement from Coogan and also from Kennedy that it is still the case.

Do not again make your laughable claim that British universities make their professors lie.

Just a reminder - you introduced Kineally to this argument
No. Grumpy did.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 11:52 AM

" I don't think Jim Carroll has ever said that ALL historians hold one view."
He hasn't - more distortions by Keith - he seems totally incapable of telling the truth

When I first produced an historian who disagreed, you dismissed him as a "Holocaust denier."

See my first post and Jim's following post.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 12:23 PM

"Although many Irish historians suffered from a sort of collective amnesia for the better part of the last century with respect to the Famine, the pendulum has now swung the other way. In the past twenty years or so there has emerged a strong revisionist camp dedicated to promoting the Celtic Tiger as being born of many things – victimhood not among them. Although one can understand why writers like Colm Toibin do backflips to absolve London from direct responsiblity for the Hunger, the facts are what they are."
Ariella Nasuti 2010, author of the Irish ebook The Ninth Wave.
https://theninthwavenovel.wordpress.com/2010/11/11/revisionist-irish-history-and-the-famine/

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 01:11 PM

One could argue that the Grosse Isle disaster resulted from incompetence, tangled bureaucracies or the like, but I won't. Emigration in sub-human conditions, many times forced by landlords like Dennis Mahon whose execution is detailed in another post, is a form of mass murder. It is as simple as that.
Ariella Nasuti (novelist

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 01:16 PM

The Famine itself was, as has been pointed out, an unavoidable natural disaster.
What was far from 'natural' or in any way human were the mass evictions for non-payment of rent by English landlords - many of them from the property of the English landed gentry and nobility. These left many thousands of families to starve to death at the side of the roads or (when they were lucky) to die in filled to capacity because of lack of resources, staff or food or simply to die of untreated typhoid or cholera.
These evictions were more often than not followed by 'cabin tumblings', the deliberate destruction of homes and crops so the tenants could not return.
Often, these evictions took place in order to give the newly acquired homes and land to friends or loyal employees of the landlords - the history books are full of such cases - several songs drawn from real cases about it happening.
There are records (mentioned in Woodham-Smith's book) of relief ships crossing the Irish Sea three or four times without being unloaded in order to make profits for unscrupulous profiteers - with the full collusion of Government officials who nodded them through each time.
Locally (West Clare) people still talk about 'The Shilling Walls', built on the estate of a local landlord by the Famine Relief scheme - he was paid two shillings and sixpence per week to pay the workers, but only paid them one shilling and pocketed the rest (and got new walls built for free into the bargain).
There are thousands of reports of corruption on the part of officials and landlords, and of indifference on the part of the English Establishment.
The Government was well aware of what was going on - many of the worst culprits were members of The House of Lords (try Googling William Sydney Clements, 3rd Earl of Leitrim).
"See my first post and Jim's following post."


"Even the church was not above inhuman behaviour.
We still have what is left of a "souper" school, which was run by Protestant churchmen who offered famine relief in the form of a daily bowl of soup only to the children whose families agreed to change their religion.
Had this corruption or at best, gross incompetence, taken place anywhere else in The British Isles heads would, quite rightly, have rolled - in a big way.
Some of the most comprehensive reports, and certainly some of the most powerfully evocative images came from 'The London Illustrated News', which sent reporters and sketch artists to capture information and artistic impressions from some of the worst-hit areas, notable Skibbereen, in West Cork.   
Interesting to see that Britain still has its share of 'Holocaust deniers'."
Where does this I state all historians hold one view?
Will you please stop lying.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 01:50 PM

For the record
I have never at any time claimed that all historians hold one view of history, on the contrary, I have always argued that there are at least two opposing views - three, if you count Briatin's complete denial of all blame.
To clame I have siid such a thing is a total lie and as desperate as siezing on out-of-context remarks by novelists who belive the opposite of what the kidnapper is claiming.
Wonder what Barbara Cartland thought of the famine!!
Jim Catrroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 02:19 PM

Where does this I state all historians hold one view?

The first disagreeing historian was dismissed by you as a "Holocaust denier."
You made repeated reference to "undisputed facts."
That is denying the fact that many historians do dispute them.

I have always argued that there are at least two opposing views
When was the first time you did that Jim?
I make it 06 Aug 15 - 09:03 AM.
Just yesterday!
More than two years after I first challenged your one sided version of the history.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 02:22 PM

Ariella Nasuti agrees with you on the famine.
I quoted her stating that revisionism is as strong as ever, contradicting your claim, as does Coogan, Kennedy and others.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 03:38 PM

"I quoted her stating that revisionism is as strong as ever,"
She's a novelist
"The first disagreeing historian was dismissed by you as a "Holocaust denier"
Nothing to do with my stating there was only one view of history
""undisputed facts."
The facts I have asked you to respond to are undisputed - even by your historians - if they are - show me where they have been disputed
You won't even dispute them
One more time
Didn't Trevelyan make his statements (about both the Irish and the Scots?
Wasn't he the British appointed as advisor on the Famine?
Didn't the Government lock full warehouses and put armed guards on them?
Didn't the Russell's Tory Government dismantle all the relief measures put into place by Peel's administration
Didn't they adopt a laisse faire policy of selling famine relief to impoverished Irish peasants at market prices?
Wasn't the suggestion made by Trevelyan that the Famine was a possible solution to the Irish Question?
Weren't the Irish people given the alternatives, emigrate or starve?
Is it not true that In the worst year of the famine, 'Black '47, boats loaded with relief travelled to and fro between Britain and Ireland without being unloaded in order to push up market priced caused by delaying the supplies?"
When was the first time you did that Jim?
Please don't be stupid Keith - how on earth can I have argued that your claims of a majority view was wrong if |I did not accept there were two.
I have pointed out that there is revisionism as described by Kineally and the view now held by the majority of people working on the Famine in Ireland = two views.
At no time have I argued there are one - and you ***** know it - otherwise you would not have bothered claiming that yours was the majority.
I went to great lengths to show how Kineally's statement about there being a revisionsist majority had been turned on its head in 1995 = two versions
I have even gone to graet lengths to explain the difference between the two when you totally misunderstood the meaning of Revisionism - I make that at least three years ago.
Why do you insist on humiliating yourself with stupid lies? - I have never expressed a view, that there is only one
Stop fucking lying - it makes you look more pathetivc than you already do
Jim Carroll
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 03:55 PM

Jim, why did you object to me quoting historians who disagreed with you?
What have we been arguing about all this time?

You did not want any other view expressed but yours!

You did not accept that that your view is disputed.
You still refuse to accept that your so called "facts" are disputed.

There is no post from you acknowledging that your views are disputed by historians until yesterday.
If that is not true, produce one.
Good luck with that Jim.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 04:08 PM

"Jim, why did you object to me quoting historians who disagreed with you?"
I didn't and I don't - stop lyiing
"What have we been arguing about all this time?"
You have been claiing that Britain wasd in no way to blame for whast happened during the famine - I disagree - so does nearly everybody else - even the revisionists
"You did not want any other view expressed but yours!"
Stop lying - I have argued everything I disagree with - that is not objecting to your holding a view
You have disagreed with what I have said and been incredibly abusive to me and others who disagee with you (you have the list)
Dow
es that mean you onjecty to out holding a different view?
Stop lying.
"You still refuse to accept that your so called "facts" are disputed
No I don't - I disasgree withj many of the points you have made (and claimed you haven't put forwarfdd a point of view, and I have countrered everything with facts as I understand them.
I have never hidden behind historians and claimed I am not a historian in order to avoid answering as you have
I have responded to every single point you have made.
You have responded to none.
You have just been given examples of my accepting there are more than one point of view
Your lying now seems to have gone viral
Piss off - you have humiliated yourself enough - you are now an embarrassment
Get help
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 04:38 PM

I not only have always accepted there are a number of interpretations of the Famine - I've read enough of them - but on 12 Mar 14 - 03:59 PM I posted a long explanation of the difference between the Revisionist view and the one that is now accepted by most historians thanks to the research prompted by the 150th Anniversary.
It was necessary for me to do this as you had no idea of the difference between the two,
This is the link to the article I drew my information from
BEYOND REVISIONISM
Feel free to check
Stop lying
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 02:10 AM

Jim, that post is just a long cut and paste of an article first quoted over a year earlier here.
The article where Kinealy states that revisionist historians are dominant and long have been.

On the same day you deny that the revisionist historians I quoted are valid, calling them "historians" in quotes.

12 Mar 14 - 10:18 AM
"I just thought it dishonest to state Britain's culpability as an undisputed fact, knowing that is not the case."
Now you are being maliciously dishonest - you have deliberately refused to respond to the actual statements of Britain's representative in Ireland at the time - instead you have manufactured claims by selected "historians" writing a century and a half later to prove (sic) "Britain never dunnit Guv" (again)

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 02:11 AM

And Jim, here you deny the alternative view completely!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 04:00 AM

"Historians dispute the question of blame Greg."
No they don't - a tiny handful of your fellow Empire Loyalists attempt to defend British policy by saying (as Mrs Pinochet did) that there was no alternative to giving priority to the Imperial economy rather than feeding the starving Irish.
Not one single historian has ever challenged the facts of the Famine .."

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 02:41 AM

It's a bit like the internet equivalent of the Chinese water torture.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 03:30 AM

It is, isn't it Dave.
Finished as far as I'm concerned.
I'm really not qualified to handle the afflicted - a case of "send for Dr Kildare, don't you think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 05:03 AM

It is OK Jim.
You now acknowledge that many and probably most historians do not agree with you on culpability.
We have nothing to argue about any more.
Your education is complete, and my work is done.

No need to thank me.
It was fun.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 05:58 AM

I see we're back to many and most. An upgrade from yesterdays some.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 06:14 AM

The asnswer is here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 06:17 AM

Many historians do not subscribe to the nationalist take on the famine.
Many historians do not subscribe to the revisionist view on the famine.
Short of a head count and agreement on which historians qualify to be counted as qualified to comment,which side wins is speculation.
Keith by his own admission knows little or nothing about the subject and is not qualified to pass judgement,he is similarly unqualified to educate on the matter.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 07:00 AM

As far as I can judge, there really is no argument as to the facts surrounding the Famine
How the two British Governments reacted to what was a natural disaster is fully recorded and a matter of record.
One Government, under Robert Peel, put into place limited assistance to for the victims, the Russell Government dismantled those measures and sold famine relief to the victims.
None of this is questioned anywhere, though it is played down among certain reasons by pragmatic politicians who see the relationship between Britain and Ireland more important than pointing fingers (clearly outlined in Kineally's analysis on revisionism.)
What is in question is the reason that Russell's Government behaved the way they did and whether there was a political motive behind it.
That is what is disputed and much revolves around the new evidence presented in Coogan's 'The Famine Plot'
It really doesn't get more complicated than that, as far as I can judge.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 07:31 AM

If you want a modern comparison to what happened during the Famine - try Thatcherism
Both were based on Adam Smith Economics and the results, though not as extreme, were not unsimilar
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 09:16 AM

So Jim, do you acknowledge that many historians dispute culpability, or are you denying it again?

Derrick,
Keith by his own admission knows little or nothing about the subject and is not qualified to pass judgement,

I do not pass any judgement Derrick.
I just acknowledge that culpability is disputed by historians, which it is.
Right Jim?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 09:25 AM

Guest,
I see we're back to many and most. An upgrade from yesterdays some.

Let me clarify.
Twenty years ago Kinealy stated that revisionists dominate.
Jim claimed it has changed since then, but was unable to substantiate that with anything at all.

Recent quotes from Coogan and Kennedy ("no reputable historian believes") suggest it is still true.

That is why I just said, "many and probably most historians do not agree with you on culpability."

OK?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 09:38 AM

"So Jim, do you acknowledge that many historians dispute culpability,"
No idea, neither do you
I do know that the Revisionist approach has been turned on its head and is no longer in the majority, obverwhelming or otherwise, as you have been claiming
Look Keith, personally I'm not prepared to argue 'my historian is bigger than your historian' with somebody who doesn't read and is not interested - left that behing me in infants' school.
If you want to challenge the facts as facts - do so - otherwise, find somebody else who isn't interested and talk to them.
Your manic bad behaviour here has really blown it with me, and, suspect, everybody else.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 09:39 AM

"I do not pass any judgement Derrick.
I just acknowledge that culpability is disputed by historians, which it is."
True Keith, but you do also claim that most or a majority (seems to vary from post to post) favour the revisionist viewpoint,thus giving the impression that you tend to agree with them.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 10:02 AM

Jim,
"So Jim, do you acknowledge that many historians dispute culpability,"
No idea, neither do you

NO IDEA??
I have named and quoted historians who dispute culpability.
How can you have no idea when you have had the quotes put in front of you!?

Derrick,
thus giving the impression that you tend to agree with them.

How does it give that impression?
Twenty years ago Kinealy stated that revisionists dominate.
Jim claimed it has changed since then, but was unable to substantiate that with anything at all.

Recent quotes from Coogan and Kennedy ("no reputable historian believes") suggest it is still true.

That is why I just said, "many and probably most historians do not agree with you on culpability."

I do not have the knowledge to choose between them.
I just acknowledge that many and probably most historians do not agree with Jim on culpability.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 10:20 AM

Jim, two days ago you said,

"There are two views of the Irish Famine - one that it was a natural disaster in which nothing could be done and no blame can be attached - the "revisionist view......"

Have you recanted?
Do you now again deny that there are any revisionist historians?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 10:32 AM

Piss off - finished with you - the wedding's off1
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 10:56 AM

The was a man who's proud main boast
Was that he interchanged the words 'some' and 'most'.
When talking numbers we never knew
What he meant by many and what he meant by few.
We puzzled at was was meant by 'all'
Finding out was like talking to a wall
You see, he always changed the rules
To try to make others seem like fools
The more he tried, the more folk ranted
But it was no use, no quarter was granted
One brave lad tried a final stunt
...

And I can't think of anything that rhymes with that last none. Sorry.

:D tG

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 11:03 AM

You run from the question.

You will not admit that many and probably most historians dispute culpability, but you can not deny it either.

That is the trouble with holding views that can not be supported.
You end up looking silly.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 11:11 AM

dave,
Was that he interchanged the words 'some' and 'most'.

Not me then.
What about the man who said there are none, when there are obviously many, and probably most?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 11:35 AM

"The was a man who's proud main boast"
Well done Dave, but read the notice:
BEWARE OF THE DOGGEREL
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 11:40 AM

Once again this pathetic little man is shown clearly as a liar. He has been pulled up on the change is use of these words in the last few days. He doesn't even has the nous to realise that he is well known for being lying, deceitful and dishonest, and he claims to be a Christian. Three direct quotes from the little man himself.


"dave,Was that he interchanged the words 'some' and 'most'. Not me then. What about the man who said there are none, when there are obviously many, and probably most?"
"

"You now acknowledge that many and probably most historians do not agree with you on culpability"

"Jim has been raging about that ever since, but he can not deny that some historians disagree.I have quoted them"

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 11:45 AM

No Guest.
Those are my quotes.
What is lying, deceitful or dishonest about any of them?

Do you acknowledge the existence of revisionist historians?
What is your opinion of someone who denies it?
Lying, deceitful or dishonest?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 12:01 PM

Keith,
I think everyone agrees that there are two opposing views on the famine,nobody has given a head count on the supporters of either view.

You say "I do not have the knowledge to choose between them.
I just acknowledge that many and probably most historians do not agree with Jim on culpability"

Jim acknowledges the revisionists differ from him.

Neither of you can claim more historians agree with one or other view,
the best you can come up with is "many and probably most".

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 12:49 PM

Jim acknowledges the revisionists differ from him.

He says he does not, or rather he does not recognise them as historians.
He did briefly, but then went back on it.
Ask him.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 01:03 PM

"I feel like a hitchhiker caught in a hailstorm on a Texas highway. I can't run. I can't hide. And I can't make it stop."

                -Lyndon Johnson.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 01:11 PM

For crying out loud - is anybody interested in discussion the Famine and not this self-obsessed areshole?
Leave him to his historians - perhaps they and the World War One "real historians", and all the other "experts" who sell their books in "real bookshops" he has dreamed up down the years, can form a political party and ask us to vote for them - that should sort things out!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 01:18 PM

Question:
How many historians can dance on the head of a pin?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 01:48 PM

Or:
How many historians does it take to change a light bulb?
Answer:
Three - one to change the bulb, two to discuss how much brighter the old one was.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 01:56 PM

From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 12:49 PM

Jim acknowledges the revisionists differ from him.

He says he does not, or rather he does not recognise them as historians.
He did briefly, but then went back on it.
Ask him.

What are you saying here Keith?
One if not all of us has lost the plot.
Are you saying Jim agrees with the revisionists? or are you saying he does not believe they are historians?

What has your answer got to do with Jim recognising the existence of said revisionists?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 02:00 PM

PLEASE, Derrick - don't encourage him!

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Andrew
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 02:09 PM

I'm reminded of of an argument i had with a friend who read a few snippets on the internet of how darwin was wrong. Having studied biology and evolution and having interest in the subject but still you can't convnce some people they are wrong when they have a few quotes on a subject in which they are mostly ignorent.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 02:39 PM

Derrick,
Jim's original view,
"No they(historians) don't(dispute blame) - a tiny handful of your fellow Empire Loyalists attempt to defend British policy by saying (as Mrs Pinochet did) that there was no alternative to giving priority to the Imperial economy rather than feeding the starving Irish.
Not one single historian has ever challenged the facts of the Famine"

Two days ago, a U turn,
"There are two views of the Irish Famine - one that it was a natural disaster in which nothing could be done and no blame can be attached - the "revisionist...."

Now another U turn and he is back to denial.
Ask him if he accepts that there are revisionist historians who dispute blame.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 03:06 PM

Make your cocoa and get your biscuits it's time you went to bed, little man.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 03:56 PM

"Now another U turn and he is back to denial."
For fucks sake Keith
These are the facts that no historian disputes
"Didn't Trevelyan make his statements (about both the Irish and the Scots?
Wasn't he the British appointed as advisor on the Famine?
Didn't the Government lock full warehouses and put armed guards on them?
Didn't the Russell's Tory Government dismantle all the relief measures put into place by Peel's administration
Didn't they adopt a laisse faire policy of selling famine relief to impoverished Irish peasants at market prices?
Wasn't the suggestion made by Trevelyan that the Famine was a possible solution to the Irish Question?
Weren't the Irish people given the alternatives, emigrate or starve?
Ignoring those facts or playing them down IN ORDER TO PLACATE BRITAIN is revisionism - IF YOU CAN'T BE BOTHERED READING BOOKS - AT LEAST READ YOUR OWN LINKS.
>no historian disputes them - they are facts - they were explained to you by me back in March
No U turn STOP LYING or are you deliberately trying to get this thread closed?
You are going to make yourself ill - if you haven't already
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 05:36 PM

on a subject in which they are mostly ignorant.

What about those subjects upon which they are - or rather he is- completely, totally and utterly ignorant?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Andrew
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 07:51 PM

Yes Greg,and he actually admits he is pretty much wholly ignorent on the subject, claiming he has never read a book on the topic and has no opinion on it. mega troll....so anyone have anything on folklore / history of the famine?
btw just listened to the song kilkelly, very sad

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 04:29 AM

Jim, revisionist historians know everything you know, and yet remain revisionists.
It is an alternative view to yours, it is legitimate, and it is held by many and probably most historians.
Do you deny that fact?

My crime was just putting that alternative view without even endorsing it.
Jim was outraged.
Why?

Here is my first post in full.

"Another historical perpective.
"How culpable were the British ministers of the 1840s? They are charged with having given inadequate, limited relief because of their commitment to a doctrine of laissez faire. However, given the scale of the problem and the acute nature of the crisis once the harvest had failed for a second time in 1846, there was little they could do."
Read more: http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/lessons-of-history-the-great-irish-famine#ixzz2Z7fhxnXV
http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/lessons-of-history-the-great-irish-famine#axzz2Z7f2StzS"

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 04:34 AM

Yes Greg,and he actually admits he is pretty much wholly ignorent on the subject, claiming he has never read a book on the topic and has no opinion on it. mega troll

Can any of you experts challenge any single thing that I have said?
NO!
How could you?
All I have said is that many and probably most historians disagree with Jim, and quote a few of them.
What possible objection can any reasonable person have?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 04:37 AM

This is beyond a joke.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 04:42 AM

Yes and you've said it hundreds of time Professor. A lot of people on here are not interested in anything you say. In fact some people may even take the opposite view just because you've said something.

You are boring, repetitive and tedious.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 06:37 AM

"This is beyond a joke."
Yes it is
This thread should never have been re-opened - anything new on the subject was adequately aired on the 'Stalin' thread, and it was an act of gross vindictive stupidity to reopen an old thread on the same topic here with nothing else to add.
Nothing new has been added and it has become an disturbingly obsessive attempt to score points.
I want nothing more to do with this and I want nothing more to do with this type of argument from people who admit they know nothing of the subject and nor do they want to know.
We are all at fault - we should never have continued this once this admission had been made - stupid - stupid - stupid!
I'm out, and I suggest that the rest of you do the same and leave him to it.
'Disturbing' is the word that springs to mind - to say the least.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 07:13 AM

When Jim said that there are two versions, that should have been the end of our discussion.
We were in agreement
That was and is the only issue.

But now Jim has reverted to, "Not one single historian has ever challenged the facts of the Famine"

I say of course facts are disputed.
You all know that they are, and that Jim is wrong, so what exactly are you objecting to?

My whole and only case is that many, probably most, historians disagree with Jim's version.
I am not saying that his version is wrong or that theirs is right.
I have no opinion on famine history except that the facts are disputed.
And they are.

I have backed that with quotes from historian.
No-one has been able to find anything that contradicts my stated view.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 07:15 AM

Beautiful and sunny here today

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 07:35 AM

Clouding over here now but had a lovely walk in Skipton Woods this morning. Or possibly not depending on whether any historians challenge that viewpoint...

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 07:40 AM

Due to start pissing with rain here any minute (what's new?)- off to Dublin for a cultureglut (6 films in 3 days) - wheeee!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 08:54 AM

Thanks for the weather reports, but this is a serious thread on a serious subject.
If you have nothing to contribute, there are weather threads that could be used.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 09:01 AM

There was a beautiful tall ship in the harbour overnight, the Stad Amsterdam, it's now sitting out in the bay at anchor.

Stad Amsterdam

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 09:38 AM

Lovely Rag, but do you agree with Jim that no historians dispute blame for the famine?
Are you aware that the historians themselves say that there is dispute?

How can Jim's view be reconciled with historians actually expressing the opposite view?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 10:05 AM

Just mowed the grass, time for quick shower then down for a pint of Guinness me thinks

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 11:17 AM

" then down for a pint of Guinness me thinks"
English Guinness - yeuk!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 11:27 AM

The Park Royal Brewery closed in 2005 Jim.
Guinness sold in the Uk is now brewed at St James's Gate Brewery.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 11:51 AM

Any beer in this sunshine, but in a thread about the famine, is it reasonable to try and exclude mention of all but Jim's view of it?

Why do you people encourage him?
You know that his is far from the only view, but here you are helping to shut down discussion of the alternatives.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 12:00 PM

The day here started out bright but its clouding over. Predicting rasin tomorrow.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 12:03 PM

And rain, too.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 12:04 PM

Greg F ... is that the current forecast

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 12:16 PM

More weather!
I wonder whether (no pun intended) anyone has read the Australian historian Robin Haynes on Trevelyan.
Her view contradicts Jim damning opinion of him.

Irish historian Ciara Boylan describes it here.
http://www.historyireland.com/the-famine/charles-trevelyan-and-the-great-irish-famine/

Extract,
"Haines is concerned here with 'revising' the received view of Trevelyan, a result of the 'half-truth, innuendo and careless repetition' that has found its way into the secondary literature. Over some 600 pages Haines attempts to undermine the prevalent view of Trevelyan as a dictatorial civil servant (he was permanent head of the Treasury during the Famine) with undue influence over Famine policy who was imbued with the doctrines of classical political economy (particularly the doctrine of laissez-faire), racial prejudice against the Irish, and a providential view of the catastrophe as an 'act of God', all of which combined to convince him that the Famine must be allowed to 'run its course'."

"Haines is correct to stress the sloppiness of much research relating to Trevelyan, and to expose the shockingly lazy way in which historians have simply borrowed 'facts' from seminal articles without ever taking the time to consult original source material. Her own scholarship is impressive: the work is built up almost entirely from Trevelyan's letters, supplemented with the correspondence of the other main protagonists involved in Famine relief. The research provided here undermines the view that Trevelyan was the key influence on the government's Famine relief policy."

Jim?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 12:16 PM

"The Park Royal Brewery closed in 2005 Jim."
I know - I worked there for a time and wouldn't even drink the freebies - awful stuff.
I'm not sure how it works, but even up to five years ago I still never found a decent pint in London - marginally better than Irish bitter (still miss a pint of Young's desperately) and Polish Ouzo.
Jim Carroll