BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p

Subject: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 02:44 PM

Here are some questions offered to elevate the discussion on this thread.

Let's say for the sake of discussion that militant atheism is a religion.

To what god does this militant religion obey or pray to?

If it is a militant religion, does this mean it is a "bad" religion and should be censured?

Does this mean that any militant religion should be censured and attacked?

Should there be militant Protestant/Catholic, Judaic/Islamic, wars as well as Non-belief/Belief ones?

Is religion something that should never be criticized and held as somehow sacrosanct because it is a religion? How about the Crusades or beheadings in Islamic countries?

Atheists (militant or not) are attacked all the time. Does this mean that those religious adherents who do so are intolerant? (Rhetorical question, of course they are).

Are all "militant" atheists necessarily "anti-theist"?

Why are some militant atheists self-proclaimed agnostics and others not?

What rituals, rites, ceremonies, oblations or other church events do militant
atheists practice that make them militant atheists a religion?

Does saying that one is a Protestant mean that they automatically deride
Catholics? Does saying that one is a passionate (read militant) non-believer mean that
they deride believers?

Can militant atheists be considered holy? If they are a militant religion
then why not? Can there be a Saint Dawkins, Saint Hitchens or can they be popes
or monsignors or priests? Is that acceptable to those who attack atheists?

What bible do the militant atheists follow? The gospel according to Hitchens or
Dawkins or Harris? (They all differ if you bother to read them).

Do militant atheists believe in "just wars" like some Catholics do?

Anyone care to recite a militant "atheist prayer"?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 04:01 PM

I refer the honourable gentleman to the previous thread.

Where, if he cared to read and understand, he would see that the premise of the thread title is false.   Honourable and right honourable members opposite fail to take into account that militant atheism is an oxymoron. Some people use the term in an assertive manner while for for the vast majority it means that religion is something to do with someone else.

In the meantime, the one true path consisting of co Messiahs and associated gnome holds the answers to such questions. Once we secure the services of a token woman to do the more menial tasks we shall be as good a religion as any other.

Seriously, this has been flogged to death. If you fail to understand, resort to Wikipedia because I for one will fill this thread with the flippant nonsense it richly deserves.

No offence and all that bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 04:08 PM

Prepare for the Coming of the Great Pumpkin in the coming month.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 08:39 PM

What is the "p" at the end for?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 09:58 PM

whilst dictionaries certainly stress the theism aspect of religion, the meaning of the word in dictionaries certainly goes beyond that to include any belief system.
there is resistence from many strong atheists to this ,I think because, they like to insist that their position is a totally objective alternative to a faith position. IMO ,the reality is that atheism is a faith position.
either way, I am not in favour of censuring their position, rather engage in discussion in constructive, respectful attitude.
sadly some take disagreement to be disrespectful.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 01:00 AM

Atheism is a rejection of superstition and the patriarchy that Western organized religions propagate. Atheists choose not to accept the definition of their position as applied by those who are steeped in religion. We choose to define ourselves.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 01:27 AM

And what do Humanists believe in?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 02:47 AM

Occasionally, very occasionally I wish to debate with pete. Ok, when I want to he doesn't and when I take the piss out of literal beliefs of ancient translations he is in an angry stage and ignores me.

Which from his perspective is reasonable I suppose.

But that is the point.

Perspective.

Some people think that not having any faith is in itself a stance and from their perspective cannot understand how anyone can dismiss faith without exploring it.

Easy!

Here in the UK at any rate, religion is no longer thrust upon you and neither was it thrust upon the parents of anybody with young children now. Unless it is either through familyor sschools that still break the law.

So yes, atheism isn't a stance. I don't have a stance on on soap operas story lines but there is an industry of magazines and chat shows working on the assumption everybody does know and care. I have never watched Knob Enders, Emmerdale Farm (other than one episode I supplied props for funnily enough) and Ena Sharples was shagging Albert Tatlock the last time I saw Coronation St.

But there again, such programmes have replaced religion for many as I do admit that we all need some form of escapism in our lives. Religion being one such form, albeit an old fashioned one by choice rather than coercion these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 06:11 AM

But there again, such programmes have replaced religion for many as I do admit that we all need some form of escapism in our lives.

I think just as many religious people enjoy the antics of EastEnders et al as Atheists. Religion was never a matter of mere escapism.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 08:14 AM

musket presupposes anger on my part, which is not the case, but maybe anger would be appropriate. I imagine that if I were to badmouth someone dear to those who regularly disrespect God, that they would be angry.
btw= I have just noticed that our new laptop automatically capitalizes " I ".
it must have thoughts above its station! lol.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 10:27 AM

Hi,

The p stands for "part two" that I couldn't get to fit on the title.

The reason this issue persists is that non-believers in the area civil rights are the new blacks and gays. They are continuously attacked or insulted. The so-called "militant atheist" is a fabrication and an attack on non-belief by some religious people who claim to be neutral and non judgemental but are in fact pushing their religious agenda to "outlaw" atheism by denigrating it. Most of these ostensible Christians or whatever religion have never really read any of the books that they claim to discredit.

The proof of this is the nature of this thread, an out and out attack on non-belief by
attempting to equate it with a fundamentalist religion. It won't work.

Religious progressive types should look into how they allow this type of misinformation
to go on. They should be the first to condemn those who would make specious claims such as the title of this thread. The result of ignoring this issue places those with a more "liberal" religious view into the ranks of those religious fundamentalist groups for allowing this attack to go on.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Amos
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 10:53 AM

It is perfectly possible for an atheist to get militant about his assertions of the non-existence of God, but it is an exercise in semantic folly. But even if he were to do so, it would not be in any sense of the word a religion, anymore than refusing to eat vegetables is a form of vegetarianism.

Additionally, there are so many characterizations of godhead loose in the wild that a militant atheist would have an exhausting time of it rebutting them severally and individually, if he really wanted to be thorough.

I have great respect for the Infinite, to the tiny degree I have been able to perceive or sense it, but I think anthropomorphicizing it is about the silliest thing anyone has ever tried to do. It is tricky enough to stay in touch with one's own spiritual nature, and cosmic hubris just defeats the purpose thereof.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 02:51 PM

Amos, this makes sense to me. Unfortunately there are others on this thread and elsewhere that don't agree with you. They have an agenda called "let's get the militant atheist" (whatever and wherever they are.)

I should remind my fellow Americans that atheists are discouraged if not downright prohibited to serve in public office in the US.

The Senate and Congress are force fed prayer breakfasts in violation of the US Constitution Separation Clause.

The military, in particular, the Air Force is force feeding its cadets in Christian theology.

Is there any wonder that there is a certain militancy in regard to atheism?

In the meantime, service in the armed forces has become a militant religion.

The US in on the brink of entering a religious civil war in Syria, one it can't win, and the outcome will be a religious sect at the helm of the government. (Alawite or Sunni).

Is there any wonder about a certain militancy in regard to atheism? Maybe it's a militancy in the defense of sanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 06:13 PM

militant_atheism_has_become_a_religion

My God, some of you are thicker than arctic molasses.

I posted the linked article for discussion in the dim past when some thought that a reasonable discussion about religion or the lack thereof was possible on this forum.

Note that the title is different from the URL I used the URL phrase in the thread title because it was the easiest thing to cut and paste. If you have a problem with the sentence "Militant atheism has become a religion" take it up with Salon.com Internet technology department.

The link was to a short article excerpted from "The Bonobo and the Atheist" and amusing collection of musings from one of Stringsinger's
favorite atheists (according to Stringsinger in the thread without the "p") who speculated that certain "thinkers" described as "militant atheists" often display the same traits ascribed to the religious zealots they decry.

I made the observation that there were people like that on the Mudcat whereupon they showed up on the thread, self identified and proceeded to prove my hypothesis beyond all limits of my imagination. I hope it is not bragging to say that my imagination can reach some wild heights but I never expected to have another link to the self same article being put forth to disprove the original title of certain folks starting a religion and continue the joke for weeks to show that they were anti-religious.

So now we have the usual suspects (2 of 3 anyway) trying to rekindle the discussion for unfathomable reasons. My wild imagination is telling me that my thoughts and words as expressed on this thread and the original will be mischaracterized in the most hyperbolic ways. With or without my participation.

I am afraid it will mostly have to be without this time. But I have included this post so that anyone who is curious can read what got so many panties wadded into a bunch.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 07:48 PM

""So now we have the usual suspects (2 of 3 anyway) trying to rekindle the discussion for unfathomable reasons.""

Laughable comment from one who strongly supported all the anti Atheist threads, none of which were started by Atheists attacking the religious.

Quite the reverse, in fact!

Maybe the the OP of this thread thought that free speech meant the right to present the Atheist point of view, in answer to our Sailor Boy's distortions.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket praying ish
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 02:37 AM

Frustratingly, I agreed to bury the nautical hatchet so one avenue of amusement has been closed to me. (Hello Sailor.. In the nicest interpretation of the phrase.)

Nice that pete has an atheist keyboard to contend with, such trials make for thinking before typing. Perhaps in reply, I might point out the old chestnut that blasphemy is a victimless crime.

Amos makes a good point with vegetarianism. Not sure you could identify an atheist by the smell of their farts though in the way you can a vegetarian.....

String singer has eloquently pointed out how The USA is in the process of being taken over by the forces of Dumbfuckistan, although I usually get shouted at for mentioning it, in the same way that lying to Christians isn't really ly..... Whoops!

Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 07:13 AM

Unbelievable!!!!! Now we have part 2 of the pseudo intellectual ravings of Musket, shaw, stringdriver, don wizjet and seaman stayns, who are now joined by a few more posing nomarks.

Is there a tither of sense between any of youse?

We have a world economic meltdown and all you do is waffle on with all this crap.

Get with the programme dudes and jump on board for the big issue(Or are some of you still selling them?)

Peace and love

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 11:28 AM

"Here in the UK at any rate, religion is no longer thrust upon you"

This is unquestionably not true of the U.S.

"We have a world economic meltdown and all you do is waffle on with all this crap."

We also have a religious war brewing in Syria which brings this issue into focus.
A world economic meltdown is a result in part of attempting to use taxpayer dollars to fund religious wars.


"Militant atheism has become a religion" take it up with Salon.com Internet technology department. "

This was used as a pretext to go after certain people on Mudcat by stirring up trouble insisting that they were wrong. It had to be answered. This was by no means an attempt at a discussion whereby reasonable conclusions could be reached but a diatribe to accuse atheists as being narrow-minded and pig-headed.
And it was done by someone who is a religionist. When a war of words about this issue is started, then only a talking through of the issue can cool it down.

"I made the observation that there were people like that on the Mudcat"

Incorrect attributions were made to people on Mudcat for the purpose of advancing a specious idea which needed discussion. Atheism is not a militant religion and those who made this statement have only themselves to blame
when they attack non-believers and elicit rebuttals.

It's no good to hide behind an article or quote from someone when this
accusation, and it is an accusation, that non-believers are some kind of fundamentalists. It's a thinly disguised attack and should be treated as such.

It's the problem religionists have all the time. They think they are being
objective but the motivation underlying the attack is always there, to discredit
atheism by making it a fundamentalist religion. That doesn't work.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 01:35 PM

Musket, I appreciate and admire your efforts in hatchet burying. Though I am a little taken aback by the continuation of this topic, doing so without personal insults is the better way.

Stringsinger, Are you familiar with the concept of the difference between some an all. I would have thought so, but your behavior indicates otherwise. I have stated several times that I did not mean to say that all atheists are militant. I have even expressed discomfort with the term.

But the term has existed since the French Revolution. and the definition according to the Urban Dictionary is clear enough.

1.         Militant Atheist
        
A militant atheist is one who is hostile towards religion. They differ from moderate atheists because they have the desire to propagate atheism and also hold religion to be harmful. Militant atheism was an integral part of the French Revolution, Soviet Union, Cultural Revolution, and is expresses itself today in the ideas of the New Atheist authors.

To be clear, my thesis, which is essentially the same as Frans De Waal, an atheist that you apparently admired once, is that SOME atheists are just a rigid and dogmatic as the religious zealots they decry. I would consider what you have said on this thread so far, not to mention the reams of comments on other threads and the threads you started yourself to be proof enough to include you in the Atheist dogmatist group. I would think that many of self-described atheists on this form might describe your behavior on this subject to be zealous.

Now Stringsinger, Being a militant Atheist, if you are one, is nothing to be ashamed of or deny. Be proud that you have the desire to propagate atheism and also hold religion to be harmful. It is who you are. The 200 year old label applied to that behavior should not matter. Be proud of who you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 02:10 PM

urban dictionary sounds good to me , jack.
I don't think I would put stringsinger too far up the militant scale, as he has been far more concilatory and respectful of late, and especially compared to some others on these threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 02:22 PM

pete, It seems to me that the Urban Dictionary does not define the term by the degree of militancy, but by the goals. If that definition is accepted, then anyone who promotes atheism and decries religion is a "militant atheist."

I think that Stringsinger's behavior on these threads can best be described as obliquely confrontational anti-religious zealotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 04:21 PM

""We have a world economic meltdown and all you do is waffle on with all this crap.""

If you're so keen on discussing that, start a fucking thread about it and maybe you'll get some contributors.

All threads are about what the titles indicate, as should be obvious, even to trolling nomarks like yourself.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 04:55 PM

I believe that Don(Wyziwyg)T's last post violate's the terms of use and is just the sort of thing which should be deleted.

concerened's post might be taken as banter. Don's just seems cranky and mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 01:41 AM

Perhaps one day the penny will drop. Using religion to bolster opinions of others is about as good a personal insult as you can get?

My "piss taking" on any thread where people are judged by their faith or lack of will be my contribution and those doing so will get short shrift from me regardless.

If people are shallow enough to think that "atheist" means either promoting a stance or having an aversion to someone else's stance, they really should go out and buy a new dictionary. Whether you like it or not, atheist is the whitewash liberally coated onto the backs of the millions of people for whom religion or indeed lack of doesn't form any part of their makeup.

I suppose that trying to advocate the point to those for whom religion either holds them together or has hitherto broken them isn't ever going to get me anywhere? Doesn't alter the fact though all the same.

Interestingly, having just put the phone down and thought about it, I ask myself if my overall indifference to organised religion has been tested by these many debates?

No.

Not a single jot.

I still respect those for whom the belonging and comfort blanket means a lot. I still fail to understand how those who take it literally can retain their faith and I still get angry when those in positions of power try to inflict religious values on the secular majority.

But that doesn't describe "atheist. " It describes Musket and by a remarkable coincidence describes Ian.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 07:28 AM

Steady on there wizzjet!! don't get carried away. I am one to many for you.

For once I agree with jack...it is absolutely disgraceful that a so called intelligent? person cant take a little carefree banter without resorting to appropriouse epithets, especially since you waffle on about free speech in an earlier post.
,
But hey !! I am good, I am gracious, it is, after all jack, playing into wizzjets hand to get rid of him.

He will only kick the slats out of his playpen and bore us all rigid by starting a zillion post screaming about his perceived rights: rights people like me have fought for.

In my humble opinion and judging by his former postings, this buffoon is a known trouble maker.

Some one who should put his doubtful talents into something constructive like counting beans or putting heads on broom sticks.. have a nice day dear heart..

hang on tho!!!..stupid name wxzy stuff,pitiful attempts at stentorian judgementalism , looks like there is bit of radio ham going on there? You just have to be one of them anoraks... or you are into train spotting? go on fess up, you are aren't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket par for the course
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 10:00 AM

Whilst not having any idea who concerned is, I welcome his or her posts.

Not that I have the slightest idea what they are saying of course. But in slagging off Jack, Don, my co Messiah and associated gnome, they don't tend to pick on me which means I don't have to find a private corner of the playground to cry and cut myself up.

See? even trolls can be failures. Although reading concerned, I do get an insight into what Goofus would post if he ever read and actually understood what others write.

Concerned just does it for kicks of course. The sort of person you wouldn't wish to see hanging around school yards anyway.

Concerned, I couldn't interest you in a second hand cassock could I? Only been used once as part of a failed bingo night ajd never been worn by a person of the cloth.

Just wondered. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 10:37 AM

Don't know what you are talking about muscrat..

Only thing is, I don't like toady's, fence sitters, woosy liberals, ginger cake eaters, express reading second hand cassock sellers, anymore than I like buffoons, yeggs, biscuit chomping armchair lefties and pseudo intellectuals like your little chums; shaw, wizzjet,stringsinger and jerk the sailor (mind, I believe there is still hope for him if only he drops his nautical pretensions) et al.

Now muscrat, you seem to have some knowledge of these clowns; is wizzjet a closet anorak?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 10:58 AM

Rather partial to ginger cake actually.

I would only read The Daily Express on the same terms as The Indescribablyboring, ie you can download it for nowt. Paying for it just encourages Di conspiracies.

Not sure I can help you. I do work with occasionally and can put you in touch with people who can help you though. If you use the drop in centres in most UK cities, you don't even need a GP referral either.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 11:13 AM

""I believe that Don(Wyziwyg)T's last post violate's the terms of use and is just the sort of thing which should be deleted.

concerened's post might be taken as banter. Don's just seems cranky and mean.""

According to your rather skewed view of things, my remarks are cranky and mean, while ""Unbelievable!!!!! Now we have part 2 of the pseudo intellectual ravings of Musket, shaw, stringdriver, don wizjet and seaman stayns, who are now joined by a few more posing nomarks."" is perfectly acceptable banter.

I think you have really lost your tiny mind (and violates does not require an apostrophe).

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 11:36 AM

What barnacle balls is saying is quite simple even for you wizjets.. You resort to the use of the F word, whilst I use properly constructed banter..I aint smug and judgmental aaaand, I keep my cool something you really should learn...getting with it now?

By the way;if you find anything untrue in anything I have said about you, please point it out wont you?.

By your every response to me you expose yourself as the fraud you undoubtedly are.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 12:15 PM

In the OP, Stringsinger asked some questions, hoping to relieve Mudcat of the topic for some time. I would like to endorse this heroic goal, so here is my Q&A version:

Is militant atheism a religion? No; neither is militant polytheism. (To be a religion, some more specific content is required, though not necessarily a god or a holy book or praying.)
Are militant atheists militant? Yes.
Are militant atheists as militant as militant polytheists? Some are, some are more, some are less so.
Is atheism a special source of militance? No, ideologies are, whether atheist, religious, or other.
Is militance against other militance/militants justified? Only in rare cases.
Is an ideology justified if it propagates justified militance against other militants? Not by that fact alone.
Do atheist and religious militant ideologists of have things in common, such as saints? Frequently, though interpretations usually differ from one ideology to the other.
Should missionary zeal be limited by law? Yes, in the widest possible limits.
Should deriding other ideologies be forbidden? No, but reasonible persons should strongly discourage it, even if they share the deriders' criticism.
Can a state be neutral in ideological matters? Not really, but it should try.

Glad to be of service.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 04:42 PM

My God! Now I am agreeing with Concerereneded!! Watch out for the second coming folks! The Apok-a-lipps is upon us!

DonT-Hoe-T thanks for the attention but you are obviously delusional if you think I care what you say.

"If people are shallow enough to think that "atheist" means either promoting a stance or having an aversion to someone else's stance, they really should go out and buy a new dictionary. "

No one on this forum is saying that. Frans de Waal, leading Atheist writer and thought leader, much admired by the original poster. Has said that SOME atheists (please NOTE the word SOME which obviously does not apply to all and thus does not alter the definition of the word.) SOME atheists, Some Atheists are zealous and dogmatic, in the same way that some religionists are.

Then there is the concept of the militant atheist, which exists as per the Urban Dictionary and as evidenced in deed at least as far back as the French Revolution. NO one is saying that all atheists are zealous and dogmatic. But it is clear that some people are dogmatic and zealous in their opposition to religion. If you are saying that religious education is child abuse as Dawkins frequently does, you are according to the accepted definition of the Urban Dictionary, a militant atheist. I don't know how it could be clearer or easier to understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 05:43 PM

And wizzjet, this is a friendly banter site.. not a spelling site..over to you o judgmental..or maybe mental one? oh... and violates does require plenty of shade..or is that violets....keep out of the sun old bean..it can turn you funny..and that would never do..or would it?

maybes then we could start with a semblance of a personality for you?

have a really nice day..xc

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 05:47 PM

jack..please...........? for your own sanity...get a life?

I really am concerned about you.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 06:14 PM

What is militant? From Latin "militans" = "being a soldier, fighting". Atheists who fight someone or something for not being atheist are called militant atheists. In modern usage, "fighting" includes propaganda aimed at weakening its target. Dawkins would certainly subscribe. The question of what exactly he is fighting has become part of the fight.

(Note that Urban Dictionary is a valuable but extremely unreliable source, being written by presumed slang speakers themselves.)

Criticism is distinguished from militance/fighting by being aimed at particular features, theoretically allowing for reforms and corrections. Luther's theses are an example.

Dogmatic is a completely different notion: basing one's teaching on foundations that one excludes from all questioning. Dogmatic persons act authoritarian against their followers, but need not necessarily fight the heathen.

Zeal can have any target, but neither militants nor dogmatists can exist without it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 06:20 PM

>>jack..please...........? for your own sanity...get a life?

I really am concerned about you..<<

Ah! The balance of the universe has been restored.

I have a life, Thank you. I'm watching the NFL and posting this nonsense during the breaks.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 06:23 PM

To avoid misunderstandings: a militant atheist is someone who fights persons, institutions, or teachings for reasons directly related to her or his atheism. Many militant atheists concede that believers should not be fought if they keep their faith to themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 06:23 PM

(Note that Urban Dictionary is a valuable but extremely unreliable source, being written by presumed slang speakers themselves.)

Point taken.

Note that for my purposes, I simply have to show that the phrase is in common usage and obviously NOT something I have made up and accusing all atheists of.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 01:21 AM

Phew! Thank Clapton for that. Urban dictionary is fine by me. For a minute there I thought you were going to invoke that Webster bloke. This side of the pond, we were taught in school that due to inaccuracies, lack of original research carrying on through the editions etc that Webster is testament to there being no reliable American English dictionary.

There seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding going back to the op of the op as it were.   I for one am well aware of de Waal using the word "some" when talking of actions and thoughts of atheists. What is irritating about such a stance is that it is about as relevant a "some ginger haired people" as a debating point. Sure there are such people who rally against organised religions and even some who feel that perpetuation of any superstition is ultimately damaging to society, but to group them as atheist as a label signifying their stance is odd to say the least.



Anyway back to reality.   I have to find the direction of Knott End on a compass and get the door mat so if you will excuse me.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 07:10 AM

Is there a regional list of Militant atheist temples available anywhere?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket etc
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 12:06 PM

Not on paper. A number of people have such lists in their heads though.

Mostly the other side of the pond from where I am, but one in Kent judging by one contributor...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 02:31 PM

"Musket, I appreciate and admire your efforts in hatchet burying. Though I am a little taken aback by the continuation of this topic, doing so without personal insults is the better way."

I agree with this and am glad you finally see it that way.

"Stringsinger, Are you familiar with the concept of the difference between some an all. I would have thought so, but your behavior indicates otherwise. I have stated several times that I did not mean to say that all atheists are militant. I have even expressed discomfort with the term."

I don't agree with the Urban Dictionary in it's definition. I don't think
a militant atheist has to be fervently hostile to religion. I think this would be the province of an "anti-theist". I am not hostile to religion but
I think it needs to be questioned as one would question a political philosophy. Without any hostility, I see it ultimately as a delusion and
I'm not hostile to deluded people.

"But the term has existed since the French Revolution. and the definition according to the Urban Dictionary is clear enough."

" Militant atheism was an integral part of the French Revolution, Soviet Union, Cultural Revolution, and is expresses itself today in the ideas of the New Atheist authors."

I don't see this. The French Revolution was instigated by a priest, Robespierre and this has nothing to do with the so-called new atheist authors who don't agree with each other conclusively.

"To be clear, my thesis, which is essentially the same as Frans De Waal, an atheist that you apparently admired once, is that SOME atheists are just a rigid and dogmatic as the religious zealots they decry."

This of course is true. However, there is a certain bias that occurs when
this information is used to form the idea of atheism as something
that is "wrong".



" I would consider what you have said on this thread so far, not to mention the reams of comments on other threads and the threads you started yourself to be proof enough to include you in the Atheist dogmatist group. I would think that many of self-described atheists on this form might describe your behavior on this subject to be zealous."

Not necessarily. I have been painted as a dogmatist but I think that's a dangerous label. I am not a fundamentalist anything. This labeling is
one thing that can be used as a weapon to denigrate non-belief. Also,
regarding Frans De Waal, I admire him immensely but also consider
that he may have misinterpreted what some atheists are saying as I think that may be the case with many on Mudcat.

"Now Stringsinger, Being a militant Atheist, if you are one, is nothing to be ashamed of or deny. Be proud that you have the desire to propagate atheism and also hold religion to be harmful. It is who you are. The 200 year old label applied to that behavior should not matter. Be proud of who you are."

I don't believe that I need to be proud of non-belief. I want to propagate
intelligent and unbiased thought about this issue, however and not have
vague, mystical, ambiguous and "holy" thoughts remain uncriticized
and used to denigrate non-belief. The nature of this thread remains
as a means of criticizing certain aspects of non-belief that is not understood completely. Dawkins, for example, is not openly hostile
to religion per se. He is incensed by "honor killings", "beheadings",
the subjugation of women through dress codes, the violence propagated
by Christians, (they think they are real) and other religious atrocities
that are supported by some more moderate and less enthusiastic religious
people. My point is this.

Why bring this discussion onto a thread and expect everyone to
agree with this premise? What is the motivation for starting this
discussion? I am suspicious that there is an attempt to put all non-
believers into a category that really belies the nature of non-belief
as they inquire as to the validity of religious pursuits.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 02:37 PM

I cannot help but think that the displayed ignorance here seems to be intentional. The only person that I know saying " Militant atheism has become a religion " is the IT person at Salon who probably misread the title of the article. I profusely apologize for repeating that error and the obvious anguish it seems to cause y'all.

The title of the article is "Has Militant atheism become a religion?" my answer to that would be "no" but it appears that SOME people who are militant atheists as per the Urban Dictionary" definition are as dogmatic and zealous as the religious people the decry. (please note that I did not say all religious people. I only mean to include the religious zealots that that anti-religious zealots decry. )

If you all really think that a typo on a URL on Salon.com is worth so much discussion, by all means carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 03:02 PM

"If you all really think that a typo on a URL on Salon.com is worth so much discussion, by all means carry on."

I think it needs to be questioned and discussed rationally. Who are the religious zealots and who decides who they are? Is it possible that a person can be called
a religious zealot one moment and then not another? Is it possible that a person
can practice religious zealotry in one area and not in another?

My objection is that rigid thinking through labels encourage misunderstanding
about non-belief.

I think that those who are sensitive about this issue need to be more informed about what people of non-belief are saying. I really think Dawkins is being maligned, here. His probing is as a scientist, not a demagogue as he is being portrayed. I refer people to his interviews with religious adherents to see how he really works.

Frans De Waal is a product of his own culture which is not known to foster
non-belief widely. Dutch Reformed Church is strong there.
His "I don't care" attitude is fine but doesn't shed light
on the nature of non-belief.

Notice, I don't use the word "atheist" as applied to myself, because it
engenders a kind of negative labeling that has been given to minorities in Civil Rights issues. My preferred label (if we have to use one at all) is Freethinker and even that suggest ambiguity. Maybe we need to throw out all the labels, such as "militant",especially the ones that are used to make others "wrong".

I think this discussion has merits because it illuminates the tendency toward rigid thinking and intolerance. It has to be recognized that the Civil War in Syria
and the breaking down of the Arab Spring has religion as its basis.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 05:30 PM

What Dawkins has done in the writing and promotion of "The God Delusion" is certainly militant atheism according to the Urban Dictionary and Frans der Waal. In Dawkins' TED talk about it he admits to opposing religion and he obviously is promoting an anti-religion point of view. Since you also are anti-religion and promote atheism but do not want us to call what you and Mr. Dawkins are trying to sell to us selling atheism, not because the word does not fit but because, you personally do not like the connotations, you are not technically a "miltant atheist."

I can think of several alternate words and phrases to describe your participation in and starting of this discussion, but to call you them would violate the terms of use of this board.

So let me simply say that your premise is, to say the least, dubious.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 01:10 AM

There you go again, just because Prof Dawkin would be comfortable with a label such as you describe (although neither of us has ever asked him his view. .) you assume anybody with a view different to yours is some form of acolyte of his.

Why?

Is it that we are both British? Is it because neither of us have a religious faith? Buggered if I know what else it could be? You seem to know a lot about him anyway when I mention that all the Abrahamic religions don't consider their children as religious till they have a rites of passage of some description, you pounced on it and said we were all just quoting Dawkins. Presumably forgetting The Pope, Archbishop of Canterbury, chief Rabbi and myriad Islamic clerics.

Can you for once read an opinion without invoking your fascination with Dawkin?

Early in the morning. Can't remember if its Dawkins or Dawkin.

Your take on what I said above by the way is based on thinking I hate religion. Perhaps if you read what I put rather than what you like to think I put you may not make such absurd conclusions.

For that matter I have never promoted atheism. I don't know what it means for starters. If I promote anything it would be informed choice before jumping in bed with any club, society or cult. If something needs brainwashing of children or preying on vulnerable adults in order to boost membership rather than laying out the benefits of membership to informed adults then it really needs to have a good think about relevance.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 06:38 AM

Dawkins used to be a biologist who wrote some popular-scientific books about evolution theory, which I read. His ideas were generally well received among his fellow biologists, though not found explaining as much as sometimes claimed.

Starting with "The God Delusion", he switched to becoming an activist. He does not claim any scientific knowledge about his new subject (philosophy, sociology, and psychology of religions), and indeed deliberately boasts the opposite - see his famous "leprechaun" comparison. He is proud to fight religion, in other words, he is a militant atheist. Whenever he criticizes aspects of particular religions (which alone would make him merely a critic of religions), he describes them as consequences of religious faith.

The following is important and not known to everybody: his original starting point was a speculation about the biological evolution of religious predispositions in humans. It sounded somewhat plausible (though not to scientists who are long past this sort of "Darwinisms"), and led him to his new ideas that religion is no longer favorable to the survival of mankind, on the contrary. "Like the dinosaurs" - as another popular biologistic superstition says.

In the light of evolution theory, his present efforts can well be compared to cutting the tails of mice.

I wrote a similar post, but shorter, to a Mudcat thread last year, and found that some replies defended Dawkins in the style of some Muslims defending Muhammad - "sainthood" indeed.

I do not want to be part of ideological disputes, but I would like to emphasize that they must not be confused with science, even when led by (former) scientists. The great successes of science have brought about an aura (now somewhat crumbling, but still considerable) which attracts all kinds of superstition, with or without traditional attributes of religion. "Scientology" is the ultimate such label.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerend
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 06:46 AM

Is that dawkins related to Jack Dawkins the Artful dodger?..

Point is does it really matter.While you pseudo academics are scratching yourselves with one hand and thumb up bum with 'tother..the world is in a state of chaos..Do you clowns really think the skinny jean, blackberry fondling youth of today are interested in this crap.

Why don't you turn what passes for your collective brains and come up with solutions to help the unemployed, stop the attack on our health service, housing crisis, job cuts..these are the real issues not dork fodder that you lot discuss in your cosy little world.

Do something!!! or crayons are on way

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 07:37 AM

But concerned, surely nobody gives a tuppenny toss about housing crisis, jobs, health or other proletariat issues.

But we will happily debate whether you are male or female or whether that affects your habit of wearing bras and stockings.

Grishka gets my understatement of the last 10 mins award for referring to The Emeritus Professor of Evolutionary Biology at Oxford as a bloke who used to write a few books about biology.

His conclusions and theories were derided by many on the basis of they contradicted religious Scripture. I would be a bit Pissed off too if influential people dismissed scientific research by comparing it to fantasy and fiction. Whether it would make me a crusader such as he became is another kettle of fish though.

Unlike one contributor here, I don't seize on views of others and say their views purely reflect a following of Dawkins.

Rather funny really.

Here, my dog doesn't attend a church. Is he an atheist? Discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 09:09 AM

Just "The Emeritus", Musket? Why not "THe EMeritus" (reflecting traditional spellings like "THe LOrd" etc.)?

Evolutionary biology is what it is; its relationship with metaphysics has not been changed at all by Dawkins' work in that field. A lot of the theory amounts to probabilistic mathematics - controversial only for internal reasons.

The Scripture people oppose that science altogether. Dawkins made a good target for them because he was prominent, and because they could instrumentalize that internal criticism, of course without understanding anything of it.

The important phase, however, was when Dawkins, flattered by the success of his popular books, strayed to areas of "Social/Sociological Darwinism", which is an ideology not backed by science at all. (In fact some of its claims would in principle be accessible to scientific methods, but only few have been treated successfully hitherto - and certainly not by Dawkins, who is proud not to be a sociologist.)

Summary: beware of ideologists, whether or not they claim science and/or "common sense" and/or divine inspiration and/or tradition.

And yes, "concerned", it has a lot to do with politics, both in theory and in practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket scratching his arse
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 12:42 PM

I was scratching my head, but being a realist rather than an ideologist, scratching my arse at least has a purpose.

Funny how agreement can be phrased to look like contradiction?

If, as some imagine, atheist is the antithesis of theist, then that convenient label fails to take into account those who cross the street to avoid a beggar on their way to church or the Godless bloke caught loving his neighbour.

Reminds me of the sanctimonious berk I once worked with who pointed out that he gives to charitable causes because he is a Christian. I pointed out that I like red sauce on my egg butties because I am a football fan. He promised to pray for me so I offered to watch David Hirst score a goal for him.

Although it isn't quite so surreal to point out that our understanding of evolutionary biology evolves. Presumably through the work promoted by academics in that field. Lets see now.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 04:36 PM

""Who are the religious zealots and who decides who they are?""

Good question!

The answer is, of course, just take a look at all the recent discussions of atheists on this forum.

With the single exception of this one, the OPs are people of religious faith attacking atheists.

Does that supply a clue?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 05:21 PM

"I can think of several alternate words and phrases to describe your participation in and starting of this discussion, but to call you them would violate the terms of use of this board. "

This is an insulting remark and typical of the religious reaction to non-belief.
It belies the objectivity that a true discussion of this issue would engender.

Actually the original premise of this thread is that somehow a "militant atheist"
which has not really been defined is somehow equated with a fundamentalist religion. There is no church, no ritual, no hymn, no profession of any kind of
faith involved in non-belief and as much as some would like to pigeonhole those as non-belief, the hostility it engenders far exceeds any supposed hostility to religious people by non-believers. Once again, I will make myself clear. Neither Dawkins or me are hostile to religion but it has to be questioned within the bounds of reason.

I don't hate religion personally. I have no hostile feelings toward anyone who is religious. Also, I think that their religious delusion doesn't reflect a delusion in any other part of their life. Religious people can lead productive lives and contribute immensely to society. In my view, this is despite and not because of their professed religious beliefs.

My interpretation of what Dawkins is saying is that religion can cause people to do awful things and witness what is going on in Syria right now. I see no hostility in Dawkins at all toward religious people. His approach is to interview them in order to understand why they believe the way they do.

As for his scientific creds, I think he has proven them. His book, "The Greatest
Show on Earth" is a love letter to Darwin and is beautifully done.

"The important phase, however, was when Dawkins, flattered by the success of his popular books, strayed to areas of "Social/Sociological Darwinism", which is an ideology not backed by science at all."

This is a disguised ad hominem criticism by maintaining that it is an ego-driven pursuit to be "popular" and how do you know he is flattered by anything?
I don't see that he has strayed to "Social Darwinism" which has been used by
Libertarians and traditional "moneybags" business people to claim a statement never uttered by Darwin, "Survival of the fittest" to justify their wealth at the expense of the poor.

As for scientific proof, there has been none offered for the "faith" by religious people. Since you can't prove a negative (a logical fallacy), the defense of religion can't be offered on scientific grounds.

My reading of Dawkins is that he is more concerned with what religion does to people rather than of what it consists. The behavioral track record doesn't look too good.

There may be some possible disagreements that I could find with Dawkins and my point is that there is no unilateral tenet or creed among people of non-belief
that would make them acolytes of a "militant" idea. This is a total misunderstanding of the people of non-religion.

"Militant" has a pejorative connotation in the eyes of the defenders of "faith"
and thereby is a weapon contrived to discredit non-belief.

There are many different ideas about non-belief that belie any militant conformity.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 05:26 PM

Grishka, Excellent points about Dawkins, I have been trying to make similar points about The God Delusion.

Musket, you are not paying attention to what is being said.

Here it is briefly

Dawkins fights against religion in publication and speeches, He is proud of that. He is a militant atheist as per the Urban Dictionary.

No one is making blanket statements about all atheists except for what you and stringer are imagining is being said. I am being very specific in who I am referring to. I will now hereby apologize for anything that I may have said to give ANY impression that I was talking about or have any ill will or criticisms of atheists as a group.

You seem to admire Dawkins greatly as a scientist. That is nice. But you have told us you are a Phd. Physicist. Does that degree make you an expert in metaphysics? Neither does Dawkins' degree and work in biology qualify him as an expert in the existence of God. You may well respect his opinion, but that is all "The God Delusion" is one man's opinion. Ask Griska is saying. HE IS NOT SPEAKING FROM SCIENCE. He quotes Doug Adams, sci-fi comedian, rather than citing scientific

I have been entirely too patient with you by constantly explaining these things to you while you consistently misrepresent what I say. This is the last time.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 07:32 PM

I return refreshed, Wacko dear boy (or girl - Jeez...) from my holiday only to find that you are, fortunately, still here (what other entertainment shall there be?). Just thought I'd mention it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 02:37 AM

Back to defend anti-religion from fictional attacks Mr. Shaw. Carry on!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 02:55 AM

Does that mean I can go back to childish name calling and piss taking?

Just wondered.

Your apology to "atheists as a group" is your own version of misrepresenting and not reading what others have put. It is your insistence that such a group can exist that started all this tosh in the first place. Your technique of third party quoting to push your stance whilst giving yourself the freedom of agreeing or not agreeing with it a la de Waal is rather transparent. Even pete has the courage of stating his own conviction.

Anyway, I note my co Messiah is back from his days in the wilderness and the associated gnome is making friends whilst trimming his hedge so must dash.



You mention my own research. Excellent example of not labelling. Yes it is rather wrapped in physics and I sometimes agree the word physics applies but in reality and more importantly for application it is in engineering. Unlike my son who did all his earlier work and Masters in physics but for his PhD research is dropped into the engineering faculty.

I don't admire the good professor as a scientist as my knowledge and understanding of his subject precludes my having an opinion. A bit like those who deride him because he questions their Creed rather than making proclamations on his subject they understand.

Douglas Adams wasn't a comedian by your urban dictionary standards. He was a writer. A bloody good one at that. He dealt in fantasy mainly. I suppose that made his views on religion "informed" views.

Or piss takes as you might say.

Tatty bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 04:36 AM

Do the M.A.s have a website?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket living the dream
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 05:09 AM

www.hedontknowjackshit.com

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:14 AM

Stringsinger,

This is a disguised ad hominem criticism by maintaining that it is an ego-driven pursuit to be "popular" and how do you know he is flattered by anything?

I know that many atheists who were not interested in biology at all, applauded Dawkins, e.g. his book "The Blind Watchmaker" (1986). In other words, they flattered him, in the hope of obtaining new arguments. I do not know whether Dawkins actually felt flattered or had other reasons, ego-driven or not, and I do not care particularly, but he shifted away from biology altogether in later years, notably in "The God Delusion" (2006).

I don't see that he has strayed to "Social Darwinism"

He occasionally suggests that Darwin's theory applies to sociological groups; after all, his perceived authority is based on his past successes in Evolution Theory. The effect is that some people demand privileges for their (often enough falsely claimed) "enlightenment". This I criticize strongly, whether or not Dawkins can be personally held responsible.

Militant means fighting, thus those who fight can be called militant - what else? Fighting can be honorable, depending on its cause and its means. Firefighters are heroes, and are seldom asked whether they actually hate fires.

Note that the Scripture fundamenatlist form a small minority among the targets of Dawkins's fight. Many religious functionaries have long publicly accepted Evolution Theory, sometimes adding their provisos in a way that cannot interfere with research. Their philosophy can still be questionable, of course, but Dawkins prefers to compare them to leprechaunologists.

My own view is that the whole discussion is misled because of grave misconceptions about the very notion and character of religion. Such misconceptions are shared by many atheists and most (!) speakers for religions. I wrote more on other threads; just one thing here (re Musket): the relationship between ethics and religion is much more complicated than commonly perceived; those who do good only in order to go to heaven, do so for ego-driven reasons and therefore rightly go to hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,KEMAT
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:26 AM

The Knott End Militant Atheist Tendency will be having their annual excursion to the Blackpool Illuminations on Friday 28th of September, meeting at 7.30pm at Fleetwood Lower Light on a specially chartered 'Heritage Tram' to take them to North Shore where they will be met by Dr Bill 'Awkins who will deliver the first of several talks on The Destiny of Divinity in a Post-Religious Society.

'Awkins argues that the post-religious age dawned with the Victorian Enlightenment and ever since then humanity has been in technological ascendency with respect of industry, science and medicine, entirely negating the need for religion which has been relegated to :

'...a reactionary superstition lacking any real dynamic or authority. To the so-called religious this Neo-Religion is an entirely elective romanticism at odds with societal reality, which is now Godless by default. Even the would-be religious know this - their craving is thus for comfort and certainty. They crave what Marx once called The Opiate of the Proletariat in full knowledge that what they are getting is, in fact, a placebo.

'Once humanity has attained Atheism, Science and Technology, there can be no going back into the dark for our innocence is lost. Those who claim to believe in God are being nostalgic for a religious age they have no understanding of. Even the Victorians knew this, couching their imagery in terms of a Gothic revivalism which was every bit as anachronistic then as it is now. In the Middle Ages, everything was depicted in contemporary terms but there is no place for Jesus in modern clothes, bust as there is no place for Jesus in the modern world. No one knows God is dead more than Christians; they mourn his death in a faux-faith which isn't even worthy of being seen in terms of folklore.'

Afterwards, there will be a choice of fish 'n' chips, Holland's pies and home-made hot-pot in the Bispham village hall before the return journey to Fleetwood and a nocturnal river crossing on the Wyre Rose to the headquarters of KEMAT where such atheist classics as 'They Can't all be Right but They Can all be Wrong' and 'Religion is to Spirituality What Pornography is to Sexuality' will be given a through dressing down to the accompaniment of Miss Harper on her VCS3.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 07:30 AM

Popular version of Social Darwinism (not shared by all militant atheists): We, the Enlightened, form a higher step of evolution and therefore have the right to oppress the earlier life forms, just as the mammals overcame the dinosaurs. If you wish to be saved, join our lines and pray for enlightenment; you might even become wealthy, as opposed to the opiated proletarians. No need to really understand the Scriptures of Dawkins, just emphasize their Oxford-certified Truth of Science, and salvation is near! Praise Evolution!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 08:24 AM

Disregarding the spurious invention displayed above, do the M.A.s have an actual website?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket grinning
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 09:16 AM

How do you know it is spurious unless you .... Oh. [blush]

Kemat. I would have joined you but I got in a round in The Bourne Arms, you know how it is. I have to make a run for it down the ramp to the ferry as it is in case I bump into that old girlfriend from Preesall or her brother in law who threatened me, which makes a change from him frightening kids I suppose.

Whereabouts on the north shore? Used to ge a good pub behind the Derby Baths but since that got knocked down I lost my bearings a bit around there. I'll be waiting somewhere near my Aunty's old boarding house on Lord St as that seems ironic enough. You can stuff the Hollands rat coffins though. I come from the proper side of the Pennines. Fleur de Leys or nowt.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 09:42 AM

""Disregarding the spurious invention displayed above, do the M.A.s have an actual website?""

Good point!

Apart, as you say, from the spurious...........!

They don't!

No website.
No meeting houses (church, mosque, synagogue or temple).
No rites.
No rituals.
No hymns.
No chants.
No one to worship.
No groups to worship together.

This is sounding like no religion I ever heard of.

Mind you, I tend to believe in a deity (for lack of a better word), while also eschewing all of the above nonsense.

This may be why I feel more at home among the unbelievers.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 11:33 AM

Judging by those responses, can one then conclude that as the concept has so few similarities to any recognised religions, that it is illogical to label M.A. in this way?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 12:20 PM

All right, KEMAT, but you will not get me to Cleveleys, I warn you...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 02:16 PM

I don't think I would put stringsinger too far up the militant scale, as he has been far more concilatory and respectful of late, and especially compared to some others on these threads.

Rather ironic, coming from a a man who disrespects honest, hard-working scientists at every turn and who hasn't even got enough respect to take a single thing on board from anyone who doesn't sing from his literalist hymnsheet. Eyes tight shut and hands clasped over ears. And don't you just lurve the beautiful non sequitur in that sentence of his?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket living the dream
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 02:24 PM

Yeah but co Messiah. .. from Cleveleys you can get a tram to Talbot Square and spend the night in Yates. ..

Not that Yates has sawdust on the floor any more. Or a woman in a cubicle joined to the bar, or just serving halves for known winos.   Or dodgy Australian wines before they became de rigour.

Do religious types dream nostalgically about drafty pews with splinters?

We all have our comfort blankets. Mine was in Blackpool as a lad.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,KEMAT
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 03:42 PM

I know this will come as a blow, but the Talbot Square Yates's burned down several years ago. An amazing building that I remember still had sawdust on the floor right to the end. There are plans afoot for a Phoenix-like resurrection.

Cleveleys was hailed as the New Jerusalem. The New Church began there and now has branches as far afield as Canterbury for ready pilgrimage - though they still flood into Cleveleys. B&M Bargains! Who needs religion with such fruits so readily dangling for the enrichment of our very souls?

Verily I say unto you : Keep it Real! Militant Atheism for the People!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 05:38 PM

The impugnment of Dawkins as a scientist has to be expected by those who espouse
a god but can't prove that one exists. I maintain that "militant atheism" is a fallacy and the label is used as a weapon to isolate and denigrate non-belief. The reason there is no militant atheism is because there is no unilateral ideas, creed, or opinion and certainly no
"faith" that would constitute a coherent set of by-laws that is found in religion.

"My own view is that the whole discussion is misled because of grave misconceptions about the very notion and character of religion."

The very same thing can be said about the grave misconceptions of non-belief.

"Militant means fighting, thus those who fight can be called militant - what else?"

The label is spurious. It is used as a pejorative, here, to insist on a fundamentalist idea
that is shared by those wanting to denigrate non-belief. The whole intent of this thread is to make atheists fanatics which isn't true.

For that matter, we can talk about militant religionists who insist that their "faith" is
to be accepted as somehow untouchable by criticism. Let's start a new thread,
Militant religionists are the New Religion. These are the ones who fight against Dawkins and other non-believers by denigrating his and other's non-belief viewpoints. It's hypocritical to say that these religionists (on Mudcat and other places) are not attacking
non-belief because it is evident that they are.

"He occasionally suggests that Darwin's theory applies to sociological groups; after all, his perceived authority is based on his past successes in Evolution Theory."

Yes but this is not "Social Darwinism" which is an idea perpetrated by early industrialist businessmen in the U.S. to justify their exploitation over their workers and the poor. This was a misreading of Darwin who actually never made the statement "the survival of the fittest" used to justify reprehensible actions of Libertarians and the statement is not in the Origin of Species.

Religion, if it is to be untouchable when it comes to criticism, becomes "militant". It's fair game to disagree politically and denigrate political parties or ideas but somehow someone's "faith" is above commentary or questioning? This is the height of hypocrisy.
We can discuss, even passionately argue about politics but religion is so "holy" that it's out of bounds. Why is that?

You don't have to agree with Dawkins, there's no rule book for that but to impugn him as a bad scientist by those who have no scientific credentials whatever on the basis that they are somehow devout enough not to have to discuss their "faith" intelligently is arrogant and intolerant. It's so religious.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:04 PM

Yebbut I can never visit Cleveleys ever again after my boyhood experiences there in the 50s, one rain-soaked week every bloody August at Mrs Flannelfoot's digs and the highlight of a mug of Horlicks per day at the greasy spoon down the side-street opposite the Cleveleys And Oldham Used Car Show. You honestly think you could ever lure me back there?? Huh???

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:10 PM

"That belief of yours is certainly not evidence based. "

Again, this misinterprets the idea of non-belief by a oxymoron. I don't have a
belief as has been ascribed to me. As to evidence, there is not conclusive evidence
that there is (are) no god(s) but so far no one has satisfactorily provided scientific evidence that there is one or more.

Non-belief is not a belief but a questioning and criticism of those who profess that somehow their belief is real.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:15 PM

I agree with all that, Stringsinger. I'm supposedly one the militant atheists around here, yet I don't even know what a bloody atheist is supposed to be for a start. I've never started a militant atheist thread, unlike Wacko, who starts militant Christian anti-atheist worry-threads willy-nilly at the drop of a hat, the poor thing, and I haven't got much of a creed to speak of, just a requirement for evidence (which these blustering Christians never, ever oblige me with). It appears that you become a militant as soon as you express doubt about God's existence and ask for evidence. God knows what these neurotic Christians are so scared of!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:17 PM

I meant that longer post of yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:29 PM

there is not conclusive evidence
that there is (are) no god(s) but so far no one has satisfactorily provided scientific evidence that there is one or more.

But the thing is that these Christian chappies, and all the other God-squadders, are somewhat up their own bottoms when it comes to evidence. They themselves have deliberately put their deity beyond science, laughably enough. I reckon that, if he really existed, he'd be well pissed off with 'em all for doing that. Their God can't be who he is unless he breaks every law known to science: he was always there, always will be, knows everything, can create stuff from nothing, never misses a trick, has dominion over each and every one of us. So I suppose we have to keep asking for evidence of his existence, though, sadly, it's a dead cert that none will be forthcoming. Their delusion is predicated on the fact that, no matter how intelligent they may be in other spheres of life, they shut their minds off entirely to the quest for evidence when it comes to God. What a way to live!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:38 PM

Stringsinger 11 Sep 13 - 05:38 PM, as far as you are commenting on my posts, I do not think a reply is needed other than inviting anyone interested to read them thoroughly, which you do not seem to have done. Please do not confuse me with others. Just one thing:

The very same thing can be said about the grave misconceptions of non-belief.

As you write (and I wrote before), non-belief does not have a coherent set of by-laws that would lend itself to conceptions or misconceptions, thus any such ideas would be fallacious right from the start.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 10:52 PM

Thank you for sparking the following insight Grishka

I guess this constant nay saying and deliberate misstating of what others have said is the militant Atheist analog to counting angels on the head of a pin?

One cannot be a militant Atheists without someone to fight. What matters to them is not education of the public but the public fight. Mr. Dawkins uses public "debates" to sell his books. Is there an easier way to pick a fight with all clergy than using the title of the book as an insult.

I can see now that there is no way to discuss this topic with some of you without it being a fight in your minds at least.

There remains no other course for me than to turn the other cheek. Have at it gentlemen.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 01:26 AM

In which case you must have thick skinned arse cheeks.

Who are "they"?

Either trying to be serious or laughing at you, it remains the same. You seem incapable of seeing religion as something to do with just those interested or compelled by it and see rational people as those who have in their lives given religion some thought. Years ago you may have had a point as families indulged in ritual, school assemblies were religious in their format and you tended to accept its place in society without thought. Or at least that was the situation around here.

We are two or three generations in some areas beyond religion having any impact on life. (Add a couple of generations for Doncaster. ) It may pain you to know that most people in The UK either aren't exposed to religion as children or dismiss it as irrelevant once their balls drop.

Note the word irrelevant. Not evil, not to be challenged, not to be overthrown in some bloody crusade. Just irrelevant.

Today I read of yet another "if we have women bishops I will have to resign as a vicar" story. Bye then.

Most normal well adjusted people with a modicum of intelligence can't sign up to institutional misogyny, organised homophobia and promoting people in the same communities as equal or lower to others. That is far different to asserting an alternative.

Not having an imaginary friend is not an alternative to having one. It means you aren't in the market for considering one in the first place.

Please for once, for crying out loud, get that into your thick skull.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,KEMAT
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 05:16 AM

One cannot be a militant Atheists without someone to fight. What matters to them is not education of the public but the public fight.

I suppose it's like being a Non-Smoker. The Religious person is a Smoker, stinking it up for everyone else in the mistaken belief they are exercising & engendering free-will when in fact they are operating from a position of deep-seated self-righteousness and disregard for anyone but themselves.

Like religion, smoking isn't natural, nor is it good for you. On the contrary, like smoking it is harmful to oneself and others, however much it is indulged in terms of its cultural legacy and folklore. Yet it is our human right to breathe clean fresh air without being polluted and infected by smokers' fumes.

Atheism addresses itself to the simple matter of being free to live in a world without religious pollutants and carcinogenic concepts getting in the way of the pursuit of good sense and happiness.

Thus, I will be aggressive as a Non-Smoker - militant in my right for clean air free of poisons. I will be aggressive an an Atheist - militant in my right to open discourse and colloquy free of noxiously toxic god-dogmas that the religious find so comforting but to the greater human cause are as rancid as the leavings in an old ashtray.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 05:49 AM

You can form your moral compass by reading the invisible teachings on a Rizla.

I like the smoking analogy. Less people indulge than a few years ago. Lots give it up because it makes no sense carrying on. Some try and fail whilst cold turkey always drags at others.

Non smokers fail to see why we have to put up with the stink and hope they don't smoke in the same room as children and vulnerable adults who don't know it would be healthy to be in another room.

Smokers speak of their rights whilst impinging on the rights of the majority. They have lobbying bodies to stem the flow of intolerance to how they affect others and indeed their own long term health.

Snag is, we have a few 100 a day roll up merchants pushing their right to smoke on mudcat.org. They have hallucinations where non smokers are seen as anti smokers.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 06:07 AM

Have any of these militant atheists ever stabbed believers in the neck? Indicted them under any new laws they have dreamt up? Threatened them with 14 years imprisonment for publishing their beliefs? I think not.

It is happening the other way.

Bollocks!

DtG, C, LB and SPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 06:22 AM

Some "reborn" anti-smoking activists smoke secretly, others use e-cigarettes with or without nicotine and/or other dangerous substances, many become adipose or alcoholics etc. We must strive to reconcile rationality with other parts of human nature, which does not work if we ignore the latter. It strikes back, and may even become more harmful than before.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 06:36 AM

'institutional misogyny, organised homophobia'

An interesting choice of clichés - they don't like women, men + men or women + women, so who else is left to like?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 07:01 AM

The little baby Jesus apparently

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 07:39 AM

LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 08:43 AM

Musket, Your reaction is to chastise me for some new thoughts I have never uttered or even entertained?

And you class yourself among "rational people."

Interesting. If that is being rational, then enjoy it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 08:57 AM

Follow your own conscience

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 12:17 PM

I also rather like the smoking analogy. If you want to smoke yourself to death in the privacy of your own hovel, that's fine by me, though I might have a word if I like you enough. But if you do it in the presence of children or other vulnerable people, I'm on the attack there all right. Not because I'm a militant, but because my instinct is to protect people from harm, and in threatening their health you're infringing their rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 12:40 PM

I was having a pop at whoever wrote in your name at 10.52 on 11 September. I can't help it if either your login or your personality has been hijacked.

Me? yeah I reckon I'm rational but there again rational is a subjective stance because you can have an imaginary friend or think the government have put an implant in your brain or support Liverpool FC and still think that from your perspective you are rational.

I think people who rationalise tend to be rational.

Just a hunch.





Your posts tend to put you in a different category by my own rationalising but you would expect that or question why I still try to get it into your bloody head that you and your idol de Waal confuse non superstition with anti superstition.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket sans blood of the Messiah
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 12:52 PM

Regarding your foray into UK newspapers. At least you choose to read a "rational" one.

Relatively speaking.

I am glad the Pope thinks his God likes non believers. Not too sure about his senior managers who seek to backtrack from his statements though.

I hope he realises the Co Messiahs and associated gnome will forgive him too. So long as he does good things that don't trouble his conscience.

Oh bugger.

There's the misogyny.

There's the cover up of serious abuse.

There's the taking money from the desperate poor and gilding statues with the proceeds.

There's the outrageous absurdity that a real man can read the mind of a fictional construction and demand a few billion people believe it in what he says.

There's the fact that they do.

Tell you what. How's about we accept that all religious people are religious but some are militantly so? It allows you to put sweet old ladies in the same silo as suicide bombers.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 01:00 PM

I'm just back from a reconnaissance to Whalley Abbey. Eeeee, the there Abbots had a good life. Unlike the poor monks that is. Just think how much better life as a Messiah would be if you just took over the big house there and let us electrolytes have free reign in the local hostelries! Right near the holy hill of Pendle too.

Bollocks!

DtG, C, LB and SPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 01:04 PM

Oh yea - Not too far from Knott End either.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 02:10 PM

"I think people who rationalise tend to be rational. "

I think people who rationalize make up nonsense to justify their BS, which is far from rational.

verb: rationalize; 3rd person present: rationalizes; past tense: rationalized; past participle: rationalized; gerund or present participle: rationalizing; verb: rationalise; 3rd person present: rationalises; past tense: rationalised; past participle: rationalised; gerund or present participle: rationalising

    1.
    attempt to explain or justify (one's own or another's behavior or attitude) with logical, plausible reasons, even if these are not true or appropriate.
    "she couldn't rationalize her urge to return to the cottage"
    synonyms:        justify, explain, explain away, account for, defend, vindicate, excuse More
    "he tried to rationalize his behavior"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 02:22 PM

The percentage of smokers among medical doctors is as high as among other academically trained adults (statistics from Germany, but not likely to be much different in other countries). I do not know about teachers and other persons of high social responsibility, but I do not see any indication that it is much lower there.

One method to become a rational person (in that respect) rarely works: to declare oneself publicly a militant non-smoker.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 05:40 PM

"There remains no other course for me than to turn the other cheek. Have at it gentlemen."

Who started this thread in the first place?

It was based on a theory also stated that atheists must have had some trauma in order to adopt an atheist position. That's an agenda.

It was stated that atheists insult the clergy by asserting their non-belief. A fight ensued and now it's "lets you and him fight". That's an agenda.

If the clergy is insulted, let them express their views on this thread. It would be instructive to discuss this with them.

"As you write (and I wrote before), non-belief does not have a coherent set of by-laws that would lend itself to conceptions or misconceptions, thus any such ideas would be fallacious right from the start."

But these ideas are being presented on this thread as if there were somehow a unified "militant atheist" position. That's an agenda.

"One cannot be a militant Atheists without someone to fight. What matters to them is not education of the public but the public fight. Mr. Dawkins uses public "debates" to sell his books."

This is patently untrue and the problem with this thread to begin with. Dawkins is impugned by someone for somehow just wanting to "sell his books". This is reflective of the reactionary stance of those "selling their religion" by posting threads that say that atheism is a religion, a false accusation and belies an agenda to discredit atheism.

Dawkins is vitally concerned with educating the public and the denigration of science by the smothering yoke of religion. I doubt he has made even a tenth of the money that has been made by the authors of the "Left Behind" series, Jerry Jenkins being one.

Christians are giving themselves a bad name by intolerance, violence and propaganda. Whenever atheism is attacked for whatever reason or for whatever rationale, it becomes a religious "cause celebre" through the issuance of threads that make a false claim replete with labels and name-calling.

When non-believers protest titles such as heading this thread, they are somehow smacked down as being too "militant". That term has a pejorative connotation and as I remember was used as a weapon against the Civil Rights Movement to discredit that.

You can't step on a toe and not expect the person attached to it to yell "ouch!"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 06:54 PM

Stringsinger, it was you who started this thread (even if you chose its title from another one). I understood it to be about possible analogies between certain kinds of atheism and religion. In a bad BS tradition, the thread gravitates towards other topics discussed in about 27 threads before. If you and others are not willing to read other posts, why do you post at all?

If you do not want to be subsumed with other atheists, please do not subsume me with anyone else. When you quote me, your comment must not refer to other people's opinion or alleged agenda. In fact I have not read here anyone suggesting the existence of a unified "militant atheist" position, quite the contrary.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 07:47 PM

Nah then, el Gnomo, in spite of doing The Three Fishes at Mitton with Mother at least five times a year, and driving her over t'Nick for the views (we hob-nobbed in Downham last time I was up, and she swears that her and me dad almost bought Sabden post office many moons ago), I've never actually visited Whalley Abbey. Do you recommend it? Would I get Mother round if I could cadge a wheelchair? I could be talking early October here...!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 08:49 PM

There is no unified "militant atheist" organization.   None of you pay any attention to what anyone else says except to try to one up the other person. That is not a good formula for productive organizational meetings.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 08:51 PM

Grats on 100 posts Stringy!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 02:04 AM

Dunno about Germany but the BMA polled doctors in The UK a few years ago as part of a paper published in The BMJ. My Athens account is down otherwise I would have the reference to hand.

Back then circa 2004, with over 3000 replies to the poll it extrapolated to 0.04 or 0.05% of doctors. It will have fallen too. I work alongside doctors and am married to one. A large number of of our friends are doctors. I don't know a single one who smokes. Nurses are a different situation mind. ....

Back in the 60s my Dad's GP advised him to stop smoking. I'll stop when you stop said my Dad. They both died of lung cancer in the mid 70s.

Smoking cessation was my pet subject when chairing a PCT (health authority in Blair Speke) and out of over 20000 doctors I doubt you would need to take your shoes and socks off to carry on counting the number of smokers here.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 02:41 AM

Interesting how one can talk about "them" "they" etc for dozens of withering posts on various threads then have the bare arsed cheek to say there is no such thing.

Interestingly you are right. Lots of people had to spell it out to you though before it became your own stance at last. Must have been that barbecued donkey on the road to Damascus.

Whalley Abbey is worth a punt if you are in the area. The annual haj to Knott End may be a good diversion en route. As someone who comes from Creswell originally, I would ask you to ensure your satnav gets specific instructions as Whalley Common near my family tree fodder is about 120 miles out. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,KEMAT
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 04:19 AM

Whalley Abbey is a picturesque ruin & well worth a visit, along with the nearby gatehouse - railway fans will love the viaduct, whilst the tea room provides at atmospheric setting for all manner of refreshment.

Less well known is that the bulk of the medieval choir stalls (c. 1430) ended up in the parish church of St. Mary and All Saints where they remain to this day looking as fresh as the day they were carved. These are the work of one Mr Eatough (how rare it is that the name of the sculptors come down to us) and represent some of the finest misericords in the country, with all manner of the didactic scenes - folklore fans will love the 'Green Men' as well as the vivid scenes of medieval vernacular life & comedic depictions of domestic strife. Unique to Whalley is an early English proverb concerning the shoeing of the goose; the image is found elsewhere (i.e. York Minster on a column capital) but never with the text which makes the Whalley carving so fascinating.

Problem is, Whalley Parish Church is only open for two hours each weekend, making visiting hardly convenient - but it's well worth narrowing your window for.

Foliate Head, Whalley Parish Church, c. 1430

Other Whalley Abbey misericords can be found in Blackburn Cathedral and Cliviger. In Blackburn is Mr Eatough's remarkable depiction of The Fall, though they haven't survived as well as those at Whalley.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 08:30 AM

No problems Messiah S - It is pretty flat. Henry VIII saw to that. Probably very forward sighted of him...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket nodding
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 10:22 AM

Yeah, old 'Enry knew how to deal with Papist heretics!

Reformation of the church. Got a nice ring to it wouldn't you say? Reformation was more difficult in Tudor ties though, no bulldozers or Ruston Bucyrus wrecking balls. In fact the only sound of balls was, perchance, the sound of medieval gnomes running round shouting Bollocks!

Talking of old buildings, I mentioned to my lad that we will be visiting friends in Canada early next year, he pointed out that my house is older than Canada. Now... I know The Rockies are young, by mountain standards but makes you think, doesn't it? I was skiing at Panorama the other year and I can tell you, the whole resort turned up one day on the back of big trucks....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 12:25 PM

That is not a good formula for productive organizational meetings.

I seriously doubt whether you'll find any atheists lamenting the lack of available "productive organizational meetings", frankly. I mean, we would have literally nothing to talk about.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 12:37 PM

"I'm here for an argument." (Monty Python reference)

"No, you're not!"

"Yes, I am!"

"You most certainly are not."

"But I am!"

"No, you're not."

"Now, look here, my good man, I paid for an argument, and that's what I'm going to get!"

"No, you didnt'."

"I DID!!!"

"Did not."

"This is outrageous!"

"No, it isn't."

Etc...etc...etc... Good for light amusement.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket clarifying
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 01:22 PM

That isn't argument.

Yes it is

No it isn't , it's contradiction.

Same thing.

No it isn't.

Yeah but LH, isn't it nice when you go fishing, lay a bit of ground bait, drop a maggot or lugworm and wait. Your day wasn't wasted when they start biting.

I suppose you can either use media to form your view or use your own experience. The former is based on a larger sample set and the latter therefore more subjective.

I was in a church the other week, not for a service but in the building and an old biddy shouted at me to take my hat off before both feet were over the threshold.

Three weeks ago, we were guests at a Sikh equivalent of a christening. A bloke put a scarf on my head whether I wanted it or not before I even got to the ruddy threshold.

A few years ago, I was in Dubai during Ramadan. Everybody I was with told me to get some water to stop dehydrating. But I don't wish to appear disrespectful? Why? You're not a Muslim? (Everywhere has places to eat and drink, but behind curtains and blinds so those fasting don't have to watch you and get thirsty...)

Which of the three cults above are portrayed as the most militant?

And then those who exhibit superstition have the gall to ask if rational people have a militant wing...........

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 02:46 PM

Last week we visited the cathedral in Amalfi. A stern young woman at the entrance insisted that my wife draped her shoulders in a provided scarf ('twas 33 Celsius at the time). The missus is a lady of maturing years and she was hardly dressed to kill.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 03:14 PM

Hey! Co-inciwhatsit again - Gino thingy Italian Chef bloke is in Amalfi on the box as I type this. How do you do it Messiahs?

Bollocks

DtG etc etc...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 03:17 PM

You've clearly been visiting the wrong churches, Musket. They're certainly not all like that. ;-) I avoid places with too many silly little damned rules, religious or otherwise, and I trust you do too.

Meanwhile...

"I've had enough of this!" (storming out)

"No, you haven't!" (spoken from behind desk with the certainty of one who knows)

"Oh, SHUT UP!!!" (angry voice fading down hallway, exit stage left)

***

One thing to bear in mind, though. There are a number of cultures which insist, for instance, that one remove one's footwear before entering any dwelling place. This isn't done for religious reasons, it's done for other reasons. Even if YOU don't normally do that in your own dwelling place, it would be churlish and very impolite not to honour a host's wishes in that or some other regard when one is a guest. Accordingly, I honour the various religious OR cultural formalities when I'm a guest somewhere, and so would any other person who is reasonably sensible. To do so is NOT to surrender your own rights in some way. It's merely good manners. And you'd expect others to honour your rules of normal comportment if they came into your house, wouldn't you? If you don't wish to comply with basic formalities when visiting somewhere, why even visit in the first place?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 03:30 PM

LH, Musket is not stupid, he is just prone to trolling when he feels like it. Not always, but often. Best pay no attention. Nobody can be forced to invest energy in careful reading and thinking to his best ability. Sad that interesting threads are being ruined (by the usual suspects, plural), but not ours to help.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 11:30 PM

Musket does not read what you write. He scans for keywords and trots out his preselected reply for that keyword. Same for Shaw, and Stringy. But they are not dogmatic. They are "rational", "free thinkers."

Seems like Musket's latest bugaboo is pronouns! LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 02:39 AM

Yeah but I only do it because I'm not intelligent enough to debate at your esteemed level.

Just think. Once you have dissuaded we thickos from posting, you can start agreeing with each other with no contradiction to peg you back.

So with that in mind, here's my word of the week.

Delusion.



LH knows when to ignore me and when to have a chat without any help from others.

I take it the gloves are off then.   Here Jerk! When you say people only pick up on certain words, do you mean they pick up on the bits you are subsequently embarrassed for saying or are you annoyed that what you think is important to debate is ignored by slightly more evolved species?

I might struggle with pronouns but I know how to weave Darwin into God botherer waffle. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 05:44 AM

Musket, as I wrote to Stringsinger, I do not want to be mistaken for anyone else with who happens to agree with me on some particular point.

LH can speak for himself. I can hardly believe that he has told you any news in his post of 13 Sep 13 - 03:17 PM, so he might have mistaken the intention of your "clarifying" message of 13 Sep 13 - 01:22 PM. In fact you seem to confess trolling, as you did before.

I would like to dissuade anyone from posting far below her or his own best intellectual level, but it is not in my power. Trolling means provoking others to do the same, and thus trying to ruin the conversation. Successful trollers will rarely be congratulated by others than themselves and their accomplices.

(To be honest, in spite of the OP's announcement I did not realistically expect this thread to become any better than it turned out, so I cannot be disappointed. Just saying.)

Whereas good jokes and really witty remarks are welcome in most circumstances.

When I feel too lazy to read and think about a problem properly, I just refrain from posting. When I feel like smalltalk or musing, I choose adequate threads. What about creating a thread "My Bad Experiences With Zealots"?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 07:33 AM

Gino thingy Italian Chef bloke is in Amalfi on the box as I type this. How do you do it Messiahs?

Yep, saw that. AND I brought back a bottle of Limoncello, which I lugged down 2000 steps from Ravello to Minori. AND I have a bottle of Prosecco. AND a lemon. So Limoncello cocktail, a la Gino, here I come! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 11:29 AM

Snag is, I'm Musket not a troll. Troll is an abusive term applied sometimes to those deserving of the title but mostly as a way of disagreeing with a stance without a decent argument to put forward instead.

I hate to disappoint though so here goes. Go and get fucked. Not nice I know but when you try to be objective and it doesn't work then you take the piss and that doesn't work. No matter what you put or how you put it certain people read what they think not what is written.

Go and get fucked is a decent riposte under such circumstances.

I thought setting up a religion would be good because I would be omnipotent rather than impotent.

Fellow Messiah and associated gnome.

Do you think we should invite Gino, one of my favourite telly chefs to join our cult? He could organise the butties at the next bingo session, I thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 01:04 PM

Musket, please note that I do not use the word troll - I even violated English language by inventing "troller", to go with individual acts of "trolling". In my opinion, that means "deliberately provoking heated disputes without caring for serious and sound argumentation or one's own reputation". If your definition differs, take the longer version. No insult intended, just a diagnosis.

In fact you may have stepped right into Jack's trap, so that he now scores a point without really deserving it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 07:57 PM

A troll is not simply someone you disagree with. Do take that and put it under your belt. It's quite important. If anyone around here is a troll, it's the kind of person who obsessively starts thread after thread in a futile attempt to rile "atheists". Do you know anyone like that? No names, no pack drill and all that.

Yes, Gino could make the butties. Or bruchetta. Or crostini. I wonder whether he could conjure up the amazing monkfish and king prawn curry I had at Life's A Beach tonight. God I'm happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 09:21 PM

well, a fairly interesting title for a thread - but not interesting enough to entice me to read more than the last 10 posts. you guys can bicker. i am a socialist and - i suppose- quite a militant atheist. you religious types are just annoying and silly. really, the church of wales has just approved the idea of women bishops - how fascinating. and do you christian types still believe that a disobedient child should be taken to the edge of the village and stoned to death? (deuteronomy) heaven? - a gold see-through hotel where the birds of the air feast on the eyeballs of princes and kings?(revelations) delightful. i am also a birdwatcher but that sounds horrible - still,if that is what you are living your lives for, who am i to mock?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket saying Damn!
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 02:43 AM

Oh dear Guest... I laid that one to see if Jerk the Sea Cadet actually read posts. My theory being he is so up his own arse he wouldn't look a gift horse up the posterior.

You blew it. Ah well...

My definition is irrelevant. It is the over use of the word troll that bemuses me. At the end of the day, all Internet debate on this level is a form of onanism. If anyone takes it more seriously, more fool them. BS stands for wanking if you think about it. Serious stuff is above the line, musically speaking.

achmelvich. A lot of what you say is echoed on half a dozen threads by many people. The common link being an immigrant to the American Deep South who is on some crusade or other taunting anybody intelligent enough to question population control by fairy story. Being a twitcher you are in good company. Some on this thread twitch a bit when posting.

Ok fellow co Messiah. But ask him to dig up a truffle or two to bring with him to flake on a nice pasta in Gorgonzola sauce, a la Sardinian style. Tescos knock out cheap half decent chianti but I suggest a g&t first to numb the taste buds.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 05:22 AM

The GUEST on 14 Sep 13 - 01:04 PM was I, as you may have guessed. I never call anyone a troll. If I were using that word for everybody with whom I sometimes disagree, it would be a synonym for human being (including myself).

Also, I generally do not wish to comment on the moral quality of posters. (Exceptions are possible, but it takes more for that than found in this thread.) Musket or anybody else, if you feel insulted, I solemnly apologize.

This is Stringsinger's thread, and he wanted a serious discussion (though he hoped to "win" it). The character of this forum implies that many posts are polemic or insincere; reasonable people cannot do any better than either ignore them or only discuss those aspects that are really interesting.

Posters can have a variety of attitudes at their disposal. Sometimes it is not immediately clear in which mode they are, that is why I thought my hint of 13 Sep 13 - 03:30 PM helpful. LH did not protest.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket being obvious
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 05:50 AM

Granted. I didn't think you were and I replied generally rather than specifically. I tell Jerk the Sea Cadet to get fucked occasionally but that's because you can't educate pork. He started all this nonsense in order to sneer at non Christians, asserting that yoummust have had some trauma or other in the past, otherwise why wouldn't you have an imaginary friend? By asserting religious tendencies as the norm, he insulted a lot of people.

I just make sure he doesn't forget it, that's all. He is in denial about his earlier stance mind, so there is hope yet. But his earlier nonsense is published now all the same so nobody has to take my interpretation up, judge for themselves.

It is difficult debating an oxymoron and the second post in this thread, from me, points out that you cannot say militant atheist as that would be an assertive phrase and atheist as a term includes the many for whom religion is irrelevant so the word is passive.

You can hate religion, you can be proactive in eradicating it from influencing the rest of us. But as per the analogy further up this thread, don't confuse non smokers with anti smokers. A colleague of mine smokes but has tried and tried to stop. She is an advocate of making them illegal drugs and refers to smoking in the home as child abuse where children happen to live. She isn't a non smoker. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 07:28 AM

If you cannot educate pork, abusing it is not likely to look any more reasonable. To simply return an abuse is not what I feel to be good style either, particularly if from another thread.

Debate an oxymoron: it is possible to discuss whether it is an oxymoron. I am not convinced that militant (= fighting, aggressive) atheists do not exist, and this thread makes me more inclined to the opposite. If you feel "militant" to mean "fighting without justification", we can decide which definition to use.

(Note that "Ecclesia militans" or "l'Eglise militante" - "the struggling Church" was a traditional proud self-description of Christian institutions "on earth", contrasted to "Ecclesia triumphans" in heaven. Their enemy was Satan, obviously a justified fight. Occasional collateral damage to civilians in his vicinity, such as witches, heretics, etc., could not be avoided.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 08:21 AM

I am not convinced that militant (= fighting, aggressive) atheists do not exist

Hmm. Well, I'm an atheist and I'm often pretty aggressive in condemning some of the things people of faith get up to. Trying to force it down other people's throats (including their own children's, often under the dishonest guise of "religious education") being the most egregious of their sins. Acting as though a world awash with religious symbolism and the tacit acceptance of God's existence should be the default and deserving of our boundless respect. But I'm not militant because I'm an atheist. I honestly don't care what other people choose to believe, and am hardly likely to ever bring it up as a discussion point (I only react to stuff here, never start it). Don T is not an atheist and I'd put him at approximately on the same point on the anti-proselytising scale as meself (sorry, Don). Militant atheist is a very silly expression, and those who persist in employing it deserve all the derision they get.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 10:31 AM

Steve, you are talking about half a dozen different issues. If we cannot agree on the sort of people about which we would like to discuss, a discussion is indeed pointless.

My point in my earlier message was that Dawkins (who describes himself as a militant atheist, and asks his followers to do the same) has some traits of an ideologist, and effectively works as a guru or "saint" to many persons who have no inclination to science at all. I think we have to warn against this effect - no matter who is to blame morally -, since it can lead to the worst kind of fanaticism. Note for example that Darwin was and is instrumentalized as a "saint" not only of capitalism, but also of racism. Atheism per se is not the culprit, neither is "anti-proselytism".

Mixing various distinct issues can make for strong polemics, at the expense of strong argument. For example, I fail to see what mentioning intolerant representatives of one philosophy has to do with the justification of any other one.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 11:40 AM

However Dawkins describes himself, if he does indeed describe himself as a "militant atheist" which I would like to see proven, he is one of the rational outspoken proponents of non-belief and sees no reason why any religious belief should be treated as sacrosanct, which is far more dangerous thing than any ideas that he may have.

There are those who would sit on the fence in intellectual snobbery and refuse to take any position on matters such as these without actually appraising the value of these ideas but resort to ad hominem condemnation of individuals whose ideas they don't like.

Among non-believers, there is no reasonable threat of fanaticism since there is no unifying ideology among them.

As to science, there is no one on Mudcat that has a monopoly on this game. Science is constantly changing as new empiricism replaces the old. Who here has the authority to claim superior knowledge about it?

BTW, this thread is a continuation of one that has thankfully left and the subject matter was not started by me. Note that I used the same title as the other one.

Grishka's accusation that I wanted "to win it" is not true. I really wanted a decent discussion to take place, one where I might learn something. I think what I've learned so far is that legitimate discussions of this nature often turn into "one-up-man-ship" with pretentious erudition replacing honest communication.

I still maintain that the labeling of "militant atheism" is a weapon used by religious folk who have little substantive "faith" in their respective religions otherwise they wouldn't be so defensive and use derogatory labels.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 12:48 PM

Grishka is demonising Dawkins. And my short post was a response to one matter, the nonsense of the concept of the militant atheist. Sometimes one has to mention other things in order to make one's point, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 01:08 PM

See for example Dawkins's most widely publicized homily, ca. 2008, also available on YouTube and directly at TED.

Grishka's accusation that I wanted "to win it" is not true.

All the better; it was an observation rather than an accusation, but I happily take your word to the contrary.

I agree that there are other dangerous ideologies, but this one is sometimes overlooked, hence my warning. My own ideas of rationality and realism are somewhat different. If people wish to discuss Dawkins's video critically, I can elaborate. It does not mention his most controversial theories about the evolution of religion, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 12:38 AM

This is too rich to ignore.


"I still maintain that the labeling of "militant atheism" is a weapon used by religious folk who have little substantive "faith" in their respective religions otherwise they wouldn't be so defensive and use derogatory labels. "

Transcript for Richard Dawkins on militant atheism

http://dotsub.com/view/76cca510-aaf5-47cd-a9cb-c0c3afaa74fe/viewTranscript/eng

"No, what I want to urge upon you -- (Laughter) -- instead what I want to urge upon you is militant atheism." - Richard Dawkins from his TED talk.

Darwin said, "I have never been an atheist in the same sense of denying the existence of a God. I think that generally an 'agnostic' would be the most correct description of my state of mind."

He even became uncharacteristically tetchy with Edward Aveling. Aveling was a militant atheist who failed to persuade Darwin to accept the dedication of his book on atheism.

- Richard Dawkins from his TED talk.

Since Dawkins uses the phrase in public fora, Stringsinger just admitted that Mr. Dawkins is

"religious folk who have little substantive "faith" in their respective religions"

So according to Stringsinger what Mr. Dawkins preaches is not only a religion but Even Dawkins himself does not really believe it.

I'm pretty sure that admission pretty much wipes out every point that Stringsinger has so far tried to make about religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 01:04 AM

If I may enter a humorous aside or two at this time...

Musket? You mentioned the phrase "Go and get fucked!" as being a decent riposte or something like that?

Well, the bars all over this nation seem to be filled with lost and frustrated people attempting to do just that, night after night! ;-) Most of them also seem not to succeed at it most of the time. Perhaps this has led to the modern rise in atheism, as these people's faith has been so badly damaged by their most fervent prayers not being answered. ;-D

Meanwhile...

"An argument is a series of logical propositions put forth to make a point and establish that one viewpoint is more credible than another..."

"No, it isn't."

"Yes, it is!"

"I'm sorry, but it most certainly is not."

"It IS!!!"

"No, it isn't!"

"How can you say that?"

"How can I say what?"

"You contradicted what I said!"

"No I didn't."

"YOU DID!!!!!!!!"

(DING!)

"Oh, sorry. Time's up. You have to pay me another 5 pounds if we're going to continue."

"WHAT????????? THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!!!!!"

"Sorry. I can't argue unless you pay another 5 pounds..."

"I'll be damned if I'll pay you another 5 pounds!"

"dum-de-dum" (humming and looking up at the ceiling)

"Oh, come ON!"

"dum-de-dum"

"Oh...all right! Here's another fiver!" (slams it down on the desk)

"Right then. We were having an argument..."

"No we weren't."

"YES WE WERE!!!!!!"

(and so on)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 01:09 AM

I'm sure he would speak of his "followers" in the twitter sense but even Dawkins would, I presume, not wish to see "follower" described in the belonging sense.

It seems easy, too easy in fact to elevate his stance to that of providing an alternative to religion. I have read some of his books and nowhere did I see evidence for this. As he is a scientist I reckon if he had such a mission, he would give clear evidence to promote it.

Grishka. Abuse may not be clever or pretty, but when given out in equal measure to the general stereotyping abuse hurled at the majority of "religion is to do with others not me" rational people, your recognition of who is providing abuse says much about where you might stand on this debate.

Take Seaman Stains for instance. He seems so fascinated by Dawkins that you wonder what his beef is. If you mention that religions brainwash children he will naturally assume you point your carpet towards Oxford and worship him.

I used to worship his missus though when she was a scantily clad Dr Who assistant back in the 70s.

But that's a different sort of worship to any religious one.

And much more healthy for that matter. .....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 01:39 AM

Everything can be said to brainwash children, Musket, and what is foremost in brainwashing them, as far as I'm concerned is the endless political propaganda foisted on them by governments, political parties, politicians, and the media...oh, and commercial advertising and entertainment, of course, which brainwashes them into buying all kinds of things and living a certain lifestyle!

Most children are far more mesmerized by those 2 huge influences than they are by religion, and give far more attention to those as well. It's primarily adults who are really interested in religion, not children. Serious interest in religion generally arises in the late teens...or considerably later in adulthood, but belief in political and commercial trends is established from a very early age in virtually everyone.

Religion is a minor force now in the developed world compared to what it used to be...but politics and commercialism absolutely dominate present society. So, why are you worrying so much about a mouse, when living in the presence of a hungry tiger and a rogue elephant?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 02:05 AM

Here's an interesting, respectful atheist-Christian dialogue:
http://www.upworthy.com/a-debate-between-an-atheist-and-a-christian-has-quite-a-surprising-result?g=2

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 03:39 AM

"Religion is a minor force now in the developed world compared to what it used to be..."

And that, I suspect, is what "militant religionists" are so worried about - that combined with the fact that their beliefs are no longer guaranteed automatic respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 05:05 AM

Hi LH. Your list of materialistic and other distractions. Religion should be in the list rather than sitting outside of it. Religion may provide a word called salvation but iTunes provides entertainment, escapism, nostalgia and is just as effective at keeping you a paid up member of the poor and meek. Politics is the art of keeping you there and feeling grateful.

Hey Joe! Common sense debate isn't in the spirit of these threads. Some of us try forming a new Mudcat.org inspired religion (how cool is that? ) and you don't even offer to call bingo for us.   Why would I want to be interested in grown up debate on the subject. (Note grown up and common sense, the temptation to say rational would set me off on my usual tangent. )

LH's list is what is available today. If any of those distractions were available in medieval times, would religion have been so popular? After all, I am typing on my ipad but as a youngster I thought cassette tapes were the height of cool.

By the way. Jerk dug up the hatchet and restarted the name calling not me. I was happy to fly over and buy him a pint, name my kids after him etc but he took the gloves off. Huh! I'm supposed to not turn the other cheek.   Mind you, turning the other cheek can have unintended consequences around sailors.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 06:05 AM

Musket, my "recognition of who is providing abuse" is guided by the flow of the conversation, not based on any aspiration to higher justice. Whenever I can, I avoid such assessments altogether; they may however serve as a hint to all readers. Please consider the matter finished, as far as the past is concerned.

If you ask me whether I wish to support Jack's "agenda", the answer is no, as can easily be seen from my earlier posts.—

Dawkins has frequently been asked whether his busy activities constituted a cult. Of course he denied, but he may not be able to stop it, even if he wanted. Remember that Darwin spoke out clearly against all ideological "Darwinisms" - to no avail. Dawkins would claim the same for himself, but somewhat less credibly, since he is involved in propagandistic activities, feeding on the aura of science. Now if Darwin could not prevent Social/Racial etc. Darwinisms, Dawkins may even less be able to prevent some "Dawkinsisms".

(A video snippet where the "cult" question is asked is mainly interesting for mentioning two German theologians from the first half of the 20th century, Paul Tillich and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, as if they were news - a different topic, though.)

And yes, Dawkins has followers in the traditional sense, persons who hold the belief that his words are based on Science and thus true. I know some of them from personal acquaintance, who would not even read a beginner's introduction to natural sciences. Like the earlier self-styled Darwinists, they project a lot of their own ideas onto their idol. See my post of 11 Sep 13 - 07:30 AM. Whoever wishes to appear as a reasonable atheist, had best not refer to Dawkins as an authority.

Demonizing Dawkins? To avert demons, they must be called by their proper names, which may be "Legion" rather than "Dawkins".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 07:35 AM

No issue with you on anything you just posted.

However.

Those caught in the crossfire of "what is an atheist and is it militant?" tend to be those for whom religion is irrelevant as well as those who actively conspire to thwart it's advance.

If a God Botherer knocks on the door of someone offering happy enlightenment and gets told to bugger off or the hounds will be released. .. This is not militant anti religion but a polite wish not to imagine those without faith are interested in it.

Quoting philosophers and debates on what constitutes theism and atheism misses the point. Unless you give religion some thought in the first place and make a subsequent stance, no label applies. I can play a banjo (confession time) and my mate who can't calls me a banjoist. As he can't play one and has never shown interest, could I call him an abanjoist?

It would seem odd. Especially if some ignorant bugger tries saying his lack of interest was down to trauma at some young age. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 11:18 AM

The "God Botherers" and the "Anti-God Botherers" are cut out of the same piece of cloth as far as I'm concerned, Musket. They're the same psychological type. They're both annoying, obsessive pests on a personal crusade. ;-) When they hear the word "God", they are drawn to it like a fly to shit, either to attack it or praise it, but without any real thought about it. The thing is, one of them is the front side of that piece of cloth (a loud and tasteless plaid), and the other is the back side of that piece of cloth.

The obsession of both of them is the idea that they have "the Truth", the one vital Truth that saves!, and they must convince everyone of it in order to "save" them from some dire consequences that would follow if they believed the guy on the other side of that metaphorical piece of cloth.

They're both full of it. And full of themselves too.

"God", for such people, is just a word they quickly react to with a standard kneejerk for or against, but with barely the slightest notion what that word might actually mean...suggest...or point to. They think in crude mental symbols...if they think at all...but mostly they just react to the symbol either for or against it, and that isn't really thinking at all. That's just saluting a long established prejudice, over and over again.

What they want is absolute certainty. They will not find it. Life is not that simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket clarifying
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 12:58 PM

I suppose I was using a local interpretation of God Botherer. It is largely meant to mean door to door Jesus.

I don't see many door to door anti religion. Come to think about it, neither do I see door to door Islam, Sikh, Hindu, Jews, Hari Krishna or The Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Quite a few flavours of Christianity though.... They have septic knuckles and broken fingers around here, mainly for not realising most people will slam the door regardless of whether they put their hand in the frame to prevent you shutting it.

Yeah, quite a few people arent religious. The anti crowd include those who don't tolerate other religions. I note that in Dumbfuckistan, a republican politician has said that he will use his powers to kill off cable stations that run Al Jazeehra and the tea party bigots are telling advertisers that the station is a front for the Taliban. Whilst in Zanzibar, Christians are being acid faced by Muslims for err.. Being Christians?

No, you don't need to look to so called atheists to see who hates religion. Enough in their own pathetic ranks. Not surprising when their main attraction is appealing to ill educated peasants eh?

Life certainly isn't simple. Unless you have a stance and an agenda. Then it's very very simple. Especially for the agenda driven clowns who can't accept that others may not have an agenda. You listening Jerk?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 01:31 PM

Yeah...I'm not too impressed by the door-to-door religious thing either. We certainly agree on that. ;-) The reason militant anti-God-botherers don't go door to door, though, isn't because they're reasonable people. It's because they wouldn't wish to resemble the God-botherers in such an outward fashion by going door-to-door preaching...horrors no!!! They're too "smart" for that. ;-D

Instead, they rave on to whoever they can online, in coffee shops, at the watercooler, on the phone, at the bar, at the party...wherever they happen to get another delicious chance to express their hatred for the very idea of "God" and "religion". They are tiresome bores, and they won't shut up about it.

You're quite right about the pointless attacks made by many religious groups on other religious groups. History is full of the sad tale of that, and it stands right alongside the sad tale of wars fought over national differences, cultural differences, racial differences, language differences, competing trade concerns, competing political theories, etc...

It basically comes down to this: A person with a healthy psychology is interested in people who are different, and wants to hear their ideas and find out more about them. A person with an unhealthy psychology is deeply afraid of people who are different, and wants to either avoid them or somehow eliminate them. Both kinds of people can be found amongst both the religious and the secular people in this world. I try to hang around with the ones who aren't hostile to those who are different...and who are happy to coexist in the presence of those who are different from themselves....and I don't really care if they are secular or religious in their viewpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 02:13 PM

On the Ted Talk, there was laughter after Dawkin's comment about "militant atheism". The point was missed, when Dawkins said "he was not about to preach atheism. He wanted to assure people that it was not what he was going to do. After the comment about "militant atheism" he said, "But that's putting it too negatively".   This "militant atheism" was more of a joke and taken out of context subverted his real message.

"So according to Stringsinger what Mr. Dawkins preaches is not only a religion but Even Dawkins himself does not really believe it."

This statement is not only untrue but convoluted logic. I have never said that what Mr.
Dawkins preaches is a religion. I never said that Mr. Dawkins preached anything so what
I have said is not only taken out of context but my words have been twisted to win an argument.

Grischka, there is nothing here to win. There is no evidence as a basis for an idea of any god. Making any assertions without scientific evidence is a dangerous practice especially if it's used to attack non-belief.

As to the notion of a cult, non-belief defies any cult like qualities whatever because the main idea is to get people to think for themselves, not follow any doctrine. Dawkins is expressing his own ideas which is mostly about people who are science-deniers. Non-belief is not a cult and it is redundant to say this but non-belief is not belief. A cult
depends on a belief system and if you really know about cults they have the following
characteristics.

1. People are punished when they leave the cult.
2. There is a blind obeisance to leaders. (there is none toward Dawkins especially on my part)
3. Past associations with family members or friends not associated with the cult are cut off.
4. Cult people have to be re-programmed.
5. There is an attempt to exploit or berate people who don't quite go along. (Dawkins doesn't do that).

Hence, non-belief is not a cult nor is Dawkins a cult leader.

As to knowledge of science, there are a great many people in belief and non-belief
systems who don't know science and within the scientific community, there are those
who feel that they don't know about science either because it is constantly being
questioned and notions are changed.

""I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics." quote by Richard Feynman might easily apply to science in general since it is in constant motion.
But contemporary scientific evidence is all we have to rely on for real assessments about the world. The rest is conjecture.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 06:34 PM

""The obsession of both of them is the idea that they have "the Truth", the one vital Truth that saves!, and they must convince everyone of it in order to "save" them from some dire consequences that would follow if they believed the guy on the other side of that metaphorical piece of cloth.

They're both full of it. And full of themselves too.""

It's not often that I see a statement from you which I consider egregious rubbish LH, but this is one such.

The vast majority of Atheists (so called by those of religious bent) never even consider the existence of a Deity and never notice the existence of religion unless it is thrust into their lives by evangelising clowns who raise the subject to attack the non religious, because they are told it is their duty to bring religion to the unbeliever.

Guess what? The unbelievers couldn't give a rustic fuck, as long as the faithful leave them alone, but the bottom line is that the buggers cannot resist the urge to convert others.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 06:48 PM

Further to my last, I know of no non believer who has ever tried to convert any other person to non belief.

Taking the piss, or making serious points about indoctrination of young and impressionable children, is not by any stretch of the imagination an attempt to convert.

It is expressing an opinion, an essential part of free speech, and it is the right of every human being to do that.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 06:52 PM

Stringsinger, I'm afraid we do not understand one another in the least. Never mind. I wrote about one point which I think some of us understood; I could write a lot more, but nobody seems really interested. Whoever thinks he won may buy himself a drink.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 06:55 PM

Stringsinger, you could well be bashing your head against a brick wall here. Grishka, Hawk and (worst of all by a country mile) Wacko Jacko are either scared Christians or scared fence-sitters. Neither you, me, Musket nor Dawkins have anywhere near enough passion to take on the stupidity of Christianity and lose one second's sleep over it. Be a shrugger of the shoulders instead, and just remember that the average "atheist" sort of vaguely dislikes every religion. On the other hand, every Christian, Hindu, Muslim or whatever hates and fears with vehemence every other religion bar their own (they'll protest, of course, but if what I say is untrue there wouldn't be separate religions, would there?) Every big religion has its own version of "we are the one true faith". Even Musket and myself, the new Messiahs, preach The New Truth, that truth wot trumps all older truths, innit!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket evangelical as ever
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 01:59 AM

Amen to that co Messiah.

Don had this wonderful habit of getting to the point. That I fully agree with him is good I suppose but even if I didn't, he deserves a place as a guru of our new true religion, whatever we bloody well call it.

I can tell you exactly how good our new religion is. I was so angry with the heretics that I used my god powers to bring down the mudcat.org site yesterday.

Don't underestimate my dire prognostications!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 04:45 AM

if I understand you correctly stringsinger,[15 sept 11;40] I beg to differ on a couple of points, or maybe just clarify.
there may be no unifying ideology among non believers [in God] in general, as most are non believers by carelessness rather than conviction. but among the latter atheism by definition surely involves a unifying ideology,-ie. everything must be explained naturalistically, without reference to a Creator.
as a result of that ideology their own religious position of there being no God leads to the sacrosanct belief in particles to people evolution ,despite lacking any observational evidence to support that belief. that this is a pretty much militant position is evidenced IMO by the outcry if evolutionism is even questioned ,especially in the classroom.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 05:58 AM

Steve, you replied to Stringsinger on 16 Sep 13 - 06:55 PM

Grishka, Hawk and (worst of all by a country mile) Wacko Jacko are either scared Christians or scared fence-sitters. Neither you, me, Musket nor Dawkins have anywhere near enough passion to take on the stupidity of Christianity and lose one second's sleep over it.

What I read in this thread (not in others that I did not bother to read at all) sounds quite passionate and even angry, frequently resorting to polemic rhetorics.

What gives you the impression that I am scared? Or, in other words, who of the two of us sounds scared? If you wish to allay the suspicion to have personal psychological motives, what rhetorics to you think adequate?

Those who want to read about my own general position on religion can do so in threads like the one we recently had about Biblical mythology. I see no point in repeating it here, where it is not the declared topic, and few posters take the trouble to state what exactly they want to discuss. With Musket's words (15 Sep 13 - 02:43 AM), it is a form of onanism (- to each his own sexual preference, but I dissociate from any insult to Onan).

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 06:58 AM

most are non believers by carelessness rather than conviction. but among the latter atheism by definition surely involves a unifying ideology,-ie. everything must be explained naturalistically, without reference to a Creator.

Heheh. Translator's note:

"...most are non-believers because they couldn't care less rather than out of conviction (the distinction, pete, is relevant). But, among the latter, atheism is defined by the complete lack of any ideology relating to magic, superstition or fear of supernatural beings who almost certainly do not exist. Everything that we can already explain can be explained without recourse to an imaginary creator (in fact, all the evidence is utterly against him, poor chap), and there is no reason at all to believe that stuff we still have to explain will need him either."

I note also your ignorant sideswipe at evolution, a concept arrived at after hundreds of years of honest hard work by scientists.

The life so short,
the craft so long to learn,
Th' assay so hard,
so sharp the conquering.

Get off your arse, pete, scrap the inane prejudices and do some honest study.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 07:03 AM

What I read in this thread (not in others that I did not bother to read at all) sounds quite passionate and even angry, frequently resorting to polemic rhetorics

Hmm. The suspicion of non sequitur there. You should remember that polemic rhetorics (sounds fierce!) can also be spawned by scorn, derision and belly laughter. You may rest assured that my blood pressure has never gone up by a single millimetre as a result of posting here.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 07:30 AM

" ... as a result of that ideology their own religious position of there being no God leads to the sacrosanct belief in particles to people evolution ,despite lacking any observational evidence to support that belief."

Here we go again!

So where's the "observational evidence" for God then, pete?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 07:36 AM

Steve, I am by no means suggesting that your anger (in the form of aggressive scorn) is caused by Mudcat posts or by the splendour of religious revelations. I for one do not have an "agenda" of scaring anybody - why should I? If you have, it is your problem.

The point is, you do not appear like a cool guy who encounters ill-advised persons. Neither do Musket and Stringsinger. Abuses may be just a matter of manners, but refusing to apply the self-claimed rationality (as a punishment for stubbornness) is definitely not a good method of convincing anybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 08:55 AM

I put forward my viewpoints as clearly and simply as I can. That's what I aim to do. Convincing people of anything when I don't possess certainties is pretty low on my agenda. That's quite handy, really, because it absolves me from being diplomatic with idiots, which I've always regarded as being something of a waste of time. Well, I suppose I'd like to persuade one or two people to ditch their bogus certainties, if I'm pushed, but, frankly, I'm more likely to find a duff bottle of Hirondelle.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket being cool
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 09:04 AM

I'm a cool dude ok? Encountering ill advised persons, or people on English, is known as suffering fools gladly. As I haven't had to suffer anybody here, I post gladly. This isn't reality. Reality is debate, this is defending whatever absurdity we started with. Internet chat room debates cannot be anything else.

Abuse is just another way of saying "you are weird and to engage in serious debate with you makes me weird too, and that would never do." Far better to call someone a delusioned nutter to be honest. That's a luxury we don't often get in the real world. Too polite, see? I know some people who could easily form a band with pete, but I smile and change the subject rather than question their sanity.

On that subject... What the flying fuck is a non believer by carelessness? It would be careless to allow yourself to ge brainwashed by all that literal nonsense if you were anything other than an impressionable child or vulnerable adult. How fecking arrogant is that? Didn't your God tell you to be meek?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 09:08 AM

" as most are non believers by carelessness rather than conviction." Pete, I respectfully disagree. Most non believers are not careless but have arrived to the conclusion of non belief by many years of careful consideration.

Grishka, I take exception to your value judgement, "The point is, you do not appear like a cool guy who encounters ill-advised persons. Neither do Musket and Stringsinger."

A cool guy in my estimation can be one who refuses to take a position on anything and hides behind a self-righteous pseudo-objectivity creating "Ill-advised" persons.


Steve's anger might stem from a certain smugness that is evinced by those who are so assured of their position philosophically or intellectually.

In my own defense, I maintain the right to explore what others are saying to be true and be open to change if appropriate scientific evidence is presented. I don't consider religious people to be "ill-advised persons" but those who have been subjected to doctrinal beliefs without questioning them. As I have stated before, these people can be entirely rational and non delusional in other areas of their lives.

Grishka, a haughty attitude condemning an aggressive attitude is in itself a form of
aggressive expression.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 09:11 AM

Very well, Steve, I take your word (though I will not put any money on it at the moment; I would have already lost some in Stringsinger's case). Being "diplomatic with idiots" is normally not required at Mudcat, but abusing them is not a good alternative. Just ignore what you want to ignore. You still owe me an explanation what you think I am scared of - the sole reason why I bring up the matter.

Note my main message of 16 Sep 13 - 06:05 AM, and Musket's subsequent approval.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 09:28 AM

"What the flying fuck is a non believer by carelessness?"

It isn't anything at all other than an artifact conjured up by pete's lack of control over the English lingo. or should i say english. There are many things pete doesn't get, however, and I suppose his rotten use of English is the least of his problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 09:41 AM

You still owe me an explanation what you think I am scared of

I don't really owe you anything, but, thing is, you appear to be scared of Dawkins, from whom you persistently distance yourself. Well, Dawkins dines out well on his writings and his atheism (I think he's excellent in both areas myself), I won't deny. But he is as straight as a die on God and religion. He expresses no certainties about the non-existence of God, unlike his religious opponents (who are scared stiff of him). He occupies very secure ground in that his demands, for evidence, are solid and simple and justified on any rational grounds I can think of. Nothing to be scared of or recoil from there. If Dawkins makes you nervous (join the pete 'n' Wacko club!), you need to question your own intellectual security in matters of faith. Question his tactics by all means, but even there he isn't so bad. I mean, anyone who can successfully get up the noses of bishops can't be all bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 10:29 AM

Stringsinger, I was describing my observations, nothing related to justice at all, let alone to aggression. Everybody must be his own judge about the soundness of his posts - I merely give hints when reacting to messages addressing me.

If you think I refuse taking a position myself - I took a clear position here several times, on the topic of your OP. Generally at Mudcat, I am more often accused of being too outspoken. There is nothing wrong with stating one's own opinion and criticizing others, stating whom exactly and for what exactly. The others must then be allowed to "plead not guilty".—

Steve's anger might stem from a certain smugness that is evinced by those who are so assured of their position philosophically or intellectually.

If this is so, succumbing to one's anger amounts to admitting defeat, particularly in the light of the accusation "they are just projecting their personal traumas". Steve seems to prefer the smug and scornful side himself.—

Steve, Dawkins does not pose any threat to my personal faith whatsoever, and if you find anything in my posts suggesting otherwise, tell us. ("You owe me" means that your accusation hitherto lacks corroboration.) Some of my concerns about and objections to Dawkins and his followers are specified above, you can read and criticize them if you are interested.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 10:52 AM

""There is nothing wrong with stating one's own opinion and criticizing others, stating whom exactly and for what exactly. The others must then be allowed to "plead not guilty".—""

Which is exactly what the initiator of all but one of these threads was doing to Atheists, except for the fact that he brooks NO contradiction, nor any dissent.

For him, Atheists are NOT allowed to enter a plea.

They are guilty because HE says they are!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket clarifying
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 11:31 AM

Grishka. Try not to confuse "no issue" with approval. I have no issue with Sheffield United being a football team but don't for one minute expect me to acknowledge their ability to play football.

And still we have this "Dawkins and his followers" crap. If by that you mean people who don't need to believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden, he should stand for election because that describes the vast majority of the population.

Stop saying that atheism is a position. Ask someone who can speak English for crying out loud. The question you need to ask is "Why does it begin with a?" Whilst I could live with the idea that anybody aggressively against the concept of religion would be an atheist, they also may be ginger, collect stamps, own a dog or regularly use a huge dildo. It doesn't mean all dog owning ginger, self gratifying philatelists are atheists.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 12:23 PM

OK, Musket, "no issue" suffices to make my point.

"Dawkins and his followers": a large label, but not quite as large as "atheist", sind D. wrote many books with more claims than just "God does not exist."

Although it is not the topic here, allow me to list some (of many) points why Dawkins is not at all "straigt as a die":

• He adopts a notion of God from monotheist fundamentalists, often pretending it to represent all religion.
• He refuses to take notice of any research into religiousness and religions, beyond the latter's verbal teachings taken as statements about the physical world.
• In fact, in his most widely publicized statements (- I have not read everything -) he largely ignores all social sciences, philosophy, and history.
• Instead, he bases his reputation on his past merits in a different field of research, much less related than he pretends; he "dines out".
• He suggests (or suggested?) to his readers and listeners, presumably despite better knowledge, that evolution theory can be applied to human behaviour and social groups.
• He fallaciously equals "intelligence" (or "sound judgment on all matters including religion") to "prominence in natural sciences".
• He effectively equals his ideas on religion to results of natural sciences, being not proven but as likely as we can get - without supplying the sort of exact notions required in science.
• Thus, he has his share of responsibility for those ubiquituous pseudo-Darwinisms, and possible truly militant clashes with other ideologies.
• His propaganda may discredit genuine sciences.
• His smug and taunting rhetorics are designed to further fuel the anger of some religious persons, actually preventing them from rethinking their theology.
• Like many media personalities nowadays, he uses his talents as a comedian as if they provided real arguments.

This criticism is independent of the validity of any other concept.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 01:02 PM

All I get from your bullet point list is that you don't really like Richard Dawkins. Most of what's in your your list is opinionated and not supportable. I have neither the time nor energy to go through all your scattergun points, but just take this as an example:

He adopts a notion of God from monotheist fundamentalists, often pretending it to represent all religion

Of course he doesn't just construct a notion of God from "fundamentalists". The God Delusion targets belief in God in general, fundamentalist or not. He doesn't need to cover every single monotheistic and polytheistic belief system, as his main thrust is the point they all have in common, that there is no evidence for them. The flying spaghetti monster is just as plausible as God is. You seem to want nuance from him that is not called for. Good for him that he won't be bogged down by mischievous booby traps of that sort!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 01:05 PM

And cut out the entirely inappropriate "Steve's anger" crap. That kind of stuff just gets me angry.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket laughing
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 01:08 PM

If I were so scared of an Oxbridge Don, I'd first of all ask myself I were personally scared or whether I had been programmed to be so by the source of your bullet pointed nonsense.

Secondly, if religion has the answers, shallow adherents wouldn't need to react to rational criticism in the way rabid dogs foam at the mouth when he is mentioned.

Thirdly, I remain amused by how he is entering these debates. He doesn't speak for atheists because most atheists have never even heard of him, let alone be interested in his works.

I assume of course we are talking of the same distinguished eminent professor? I don't recognise the charges. They say more about the writer and their origin than they do about the scientist questioning why religion has to interfere with those who couldn't care a monkeys cunt about medieval superstition. The masses have other distractions now, and as can be seen, don't need it for a moral compass.

The less I care for religion, the less I feel like raping, pillaging and wreck less abandon. Yup, I seem to have a moral compass without the need for an imaginary friend. Maybe altruism is a feature of evolution after all!

Tambourines sell well on eBay if delusion ever leads to disillusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 02:23 PM

"Steve's anger": Stringsinger's topic, not mine.

Scared: no.

"Religion has the answers": not my claim, repeat: not my claim.

"He doesn't speak for atheists": exactly, that is why I speak of D. and his followers.

"Moral compass": a very complex topic indeed, hardly touched yet in this thread. What about a new one "Religion and ethics" - stuff that may well rival "mum" in extension.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 03:39 PM

perhaps steve would care to back up his assertions by telling us who the religious opponents are who are scared of dawkins.
on the other hand, I could name those whom he wont debate,- but of course he has other reasons ,or so he says!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 06:08 PM

pete, dear fellow, if the religious opponents of Dawkins weren't so shit-scared of him, they'd ignore him. Richard has that wonderful way of tickling believers' insecurities, and the point about those insecurities is that people of faith get terribly nervous when some militant atheistical thug comes along to innocently ask for evidence (I mean, how double-dog DARE they!). Odd, that! As for who he won't debate with, I think you'll find he has no fears on that front. He says there's no point debating with idiots, and I agree, and, from that perspective, as I'm addressing this to you, I would ask that you see this post as a piss-take and not a debating post, innit. Yeah.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket noting
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 02:42 AM

pete. You've used the capital I again... your mask is slowly slipping.   Anyway, how do you know whether people use capitals in their minds when speaking in tongues?

Funny how this thread has degenerated to having to defend someone who frankly needs no defence by others and I am sure can defend himself far better than either my co Messiah or I can. If he doesn't join in the chimps tea party it is possible that he may not be a chimp. (Yes, the Darwinian irony was intended. )

Grishka. It isn't the complexity of ethics, rather the silly assertion that without religion you cannot have them. A number of people on these threads appear to think you need a combination of a preacher and an imaginary friend in order to have any moral compass.

Interesting aside. A church near us got a millennium fund grant to stop it falling down on condition it is used for hiring out for concerts and other community wide non religious purposes. A local folk band were booked for a concert and as their act includes explaining the origins of songs and tunes, they appealed to a fair sized audience. I went over, after all I was a member of a "doner" band and it was good to catch up with old mates.

Despite the terms of the grant, I was told the other day that the church committee has adopted a motion to ensure heathen anti church material isn't portrayed in the house of God in future. They played some Morris tunes and spoke of pagan origins of good harvest and fertility for crying out loud.

Delighted to hear one person resigned from the committee and has informed The Charities Commission.

You don't answer to anything higher than government legislation apparently. Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 04:46 AM

The only reason why I describe my criticism of Dawkins here is that his name is mentioned in the OP. I agree that there are other dangers to society and intellectual integrity, many of them worse.

Tickling believers' insecurities: Tickling religious communities can have a healthy effect, if a genuine discussion arises. However, many will react by spitefully closing ranks, further inhibiting self-reflexion, and styling themselves as heroes or martyrs. Some ("militant") atheists may welcome this, hoping that it will then be even easier to expose religion and fight the Final Battle. This strategy is extremely risky, since the ideals of freedom and rationality are likely to be sacrificed in order to defend them. See the history of the "war on Islamic terrorism" for warning signals.

Moral compass: It is empirically evident that (self-declared) religious and non-religious people can do acts of altruism and commit crimes. Often all four combinations can be observed in the life of a single person. The question for reasons is extremely difficult, deeply rooted in human nature. Studying this is normally shunned by ideologists, since they feel it would weaken their position. Some of them resort to "divine grace", others to "enlightenment" etc., neither notion explaining anything.

Generally, intellectuals tend to overestimate the influence of verbal reflexion on humans, even on "highly intelligent" ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 06:09 AM

Wow. Final battle and all that. Using the word atheist in the same sentence is a bit like putting sweet old ladies who do the church flowers, suicide bombers, the Dalai Lama and buggering priests as all having the same aims.

Really?

If you want so called atheists off the backs of religions, they should try engaging with society more. Accepting equality as a reality would do for starters. Seeing religious equality as just that rather than religious privilege. Seeing their womenfolk as equal, stopping judging the sexual preferences of others, stop imposing social restrictions as a stipulation of membership.

In ky stride now.   Stop covering up paedophilia in the ranks, stop seeing women as chattel, stop circumcision of children, girls and boys, stop bombing abortion clinics, stop telling impressionable people to stop taking life saving drugs and pray instead. Stop telling the authorities you answer to a higher cause, stop having an aim of creating a theocracy. Stop throwing acid in the eyes of people with a different take on life to you.

After all, all religious people are religious. Some more militant than others eh?

Oh. And stop trying to teach children that medieval fantasy has equal billing with scientific reality. You can do that tomorrow. Those who claim to be religious but allow creationist views out in their name are just as guilty.

Right. Coffee, sort out the budget for the next quarter and go and shag a stoat.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 07:50 AM

The trouble with having a "genuine discussion" is that such a thing would be acceptable to religion only when engaged in on its terms. The very word "atheist" immediately shifts us on to their territory. What price genuine discussion then? Religion doesn't want genuine discussion with people not of their faith, as has been abundantly proven down the years. Religion wants itself to be humanity's default. The upfront attacks on organised religions we see today, predicated as they are on rationality, not militancy, are healthy, long overdue, and should scare no-one of faith who enjoys genuine intellectual security therein. By fretting about "militant atheists" you simply betray that you don't have that security.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 08:13 AM

I see the usual collection of frauds, poseurs, yeggs, cake eaters and middle of the road liberals with a small "l" are at it again.

One would have thought that the clowns shaw, muskrat, wizzjet and the rest of the nomark buffoons on this site would have got fed up with inflicting their half baked crap on us by now.

But no!!!! here they come again, stumbling out of the dark with their thumbs stuck firmly up their bums, minds in nuetral and dribbling out of the side of their mouths, whilst mouthing this semi digested nonsense.

What really worries me is that these galloots have the vote...mind you they have plenty crayons to scrawl with..that is if they can be bothered .

C

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 09:56 AM

I would refer anyone interested to the original thread where the opening poster made no reference whatsoever to Dawkins. I have no idea why this thread was opened when a perfectly valid one was already on the boil. Apart from, maybe, someone wanted to start a more serious discussion than was on the previous without realising that there was no chance that this would ever happen.

It is nice to see cornered submitting his usual deep meaningful insights of course and this almost makes the new thread as nonsensical as the first :-) Apart from the fact that he is now repeating himself about crayons, yeggs and cake eaters he is a wonderful narrator. If you ignore the spellings. And the Grammar. And the fact he is a knobhead. He does make you realise that there is always someone worse.

Bollards! (The new Bollocks)

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket shagging a stoat
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 09:59 AM

Hang on, be with you in 5 secs, just starting.

Ok. Here now.

Well hello concerened! Nice to see you back. As you can see, I have other amusement now so you can kindly piss off and take your crayons with you.

Keep it up though. The insults were better when you were in love with me and just slagging off the others but never mind...

See? You can't have a discussion on this subject because the subject is false flag to begin with, as Steve said.

Ps. No room for my thumb, you have to store your crayons somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 11:10 AM

I concede that Steve is right. I was hoping for some enlightenment and I found it
mainly in Steve's and Blandiver's posts. I see how religion causes wars, how it works here on Mudcat which is a microcosm of what's happening in the world today.

The US is engaged in a religious war and the "god bless America's" ring hollow.

In the meantime, this thread has changed no one's mind and has made participants entrenched in their own views. I was hoping for better.

I see Franz de Waal's point and Richard Dawkin's point. I don't think waving a banner for "atheism" amounts to much because of the very ambiguity of the term.
I think that "Militant Atheism" is a false flag as well since it postulates a mythical
idea.

I remain open to the possibility that someone can scientifically prove that there is a god but so far there has been only prejudice, defensiveness and no evidence for the existence of any deity. This is also Dawkin's position and I find it rational.

I maintain that the original posting of "militant atheism has become a religion" is an attack on non-believers. It was a dogmatic assertion that has had very little real value in a rational discussion on this thread. I regret this because this is an issue that is not going away. Attacks on non-believers has become institutionalized by some branches of all the major religions and instead of deploring this, there has been silence from most religious communities to stop them from happening.

There are some outspoken religious reps who do, such as Chris Hedges, formerly of the New York Times. Pope Francis has shown acceptance of non-belief also.
But they are rare. Mostly it is those who are outside of the religious net who call attention to the persecution of non-believers such as Aayan Hirsi Ali, Salmon Rushdie, Susan Jacobi and other rational thinkers.

Most of the time, attacks on non-believers are ignored or dismissed as "crap"
and the major religions are enablers to isolate and persecute.

There is a war on ideas, here, that is prevalent throughout the world and it's
resolution will be when the smart-assed remarks, vindictive assertions, dismissal of this issue, ridicule, and stubborn clinging to delusional and out-moded ideas subside.

There is nothing wrong essentially with anyone having a "faith" or delusion but unfortunately, when it comes down to how it's applied through actions, "the devil is in the details". (Pun intended).

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 12:30 PM

we are , of course going over the same old stuff that we debated [or in some cases, throw abuse around] as in past posts.
this does include what you say ,stringsinger also, albeit minus the foulmouthing of some.
for example providing proof of the existence of God has been often discussed, and it has been generally conceded that "proof" is not available in general. what the discussion really hinges on is where the preponderance of the evidence lies.
the traditional argument has ,I think, revolved around cause and effect, ie that everything THAT HAS A BEGINNING must have sufficient cause, and that the coming into being of natural things must have a supernatural cause greater than the things bought into being.
this is IMO seen most acutely in the creation/evolution debate.
What has atheism to offer to account for first things and first life ? - notwithstanding the unfounded assertion of steve that science is closing in on the problem. should the existence of a creator God be dismissed, unless it be a matter of philosophical objection.
as far as dawkins is concerned ,it seems that he refuses to debate creationists lest he lend creationism respectability, while there is plenty of footage where he does tackle creationists that don't have the academic achievement to debate him more effectively.
having said that, he wont debate w.l craig either, and he is not a YEC.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 12:54 PM

Did you get the extra strong sellotape I sent, Messiah M?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 03:18 PM

Hey!!!!, youse guys really slay me!!! I did have have some hopes for yer man muskrat..but no!! he has joined the rest of you balloons by starting to take me seriously..come on babe ..you was a lot a better when you tried to be patronisingly cynical..

Pete from seven stars link..congratulations!! you have won first prize for the biggest piece of unadulterated crap to ever have appeared on this thread

as for gnomeyo.. really!! come on!! I think did even you could do better than "bollards" and " knobhead".. oh! by the way , when you talk about someone being worse.. I did take the liberty of adding " than yourself"?

Take a good look at yourself wont you?..Comments about a persons spelling and grammar do not make you big nor does it make you clever...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket gettin
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 04:20 PM

Sellotape was fine thanks though the passage of time means less required these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 05:15 PM

Comments about a persons spelling and grammar do not make you big nor does it make you clever...

Does the handle 'Gnome' not give you any indication any phrase about 'big' is pretty much wasted? Rather like you I guess, Conc me owd lad. As for clever. Well, probably not, but far more original than crayons, thumbs up yer bums and cake eaters don't you think? Those are getting rather tedious I'm afraid. 'Than yourself' was implied so I guess you get some marks for spotting the bleedin' obvious but then I had to take them away again for assuming that anyone at all would take you seriously. Sorry, but if you really want that scripture writing position you do need to start to think a bit more laterally.

Bolleaux

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 05:43 PM

"What has atheism to offer to account for first things and first life ? "

Pete, the emphasis on science and cosmology is explained in detail by those who
are not of the religious persuasion necessarily. The only thing I can tell you about
"atheism" is that is supports the scientific method which has answers for first things and first life. I refer you to Neil deGrasse Tyson for a concise explanation.

"as far as dawkins is concerned ,it seems that he refuses to debate creationists"

Actually in the past, he has debated creationists. I think he doesn't do it now because the arguments for it are always the same cookie cutter rejoinders. There is no scientific
evidence for creationism since it is based on the bible. How can anyone argue realistically about something that is mythological and unscientific?

Pete, this "has a beginning" is called in logical circles the "Cosmological Argument". The natural followup on this statement is as follows: There must be something that made the "First Cause". In short, what created a god? Something must have caused a "First Cause". I advocate that humans created the notion of a god.    Science is now investigating the "Big Bang" theory and that there may have been quantum organisms
in the "nothingness" that started the advent of physical matter. We don't know all the details as of yet but there is a lot of scientific information that bears scrutiny.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 07:01 PM

I remain open to the possibility that someone can scientifically prove that there is a god but so far there has been only prejudice, defensiveness and no evidence for the existence of any deity. This is also Dawkin's position and I find it rational.

That is absolutely right. I could add, cynically, that the possibility is exceptionally remote, but the fact that I accept the possibility at all places me, on the rational level, high above those people of faith who are so steeped in their unjustifiable certainties.

As for fingers/thumbs up own bums, concerened, I think you may be mistaking us for Catholic priests, whose fingers are generally up someone else's bum.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket living the dream
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 02:22 AM

Musket taking you seriously? I don't take the Ian writing my crap seriously so don't start getting ideas above your station. Interesting that DtheG pointed out the clue in the name as to physical attributes. Does that make Musket a big bore or endowed with a long shaft? As I had the nickname from an early age, I wouldn't know. ..

Hang on, we can ask the stoat. Oh. Perhaps God can put him back together again.

Deep and meaningful discussions on the likelihood of a sentient force behind the laws of physics can go stuff themselves. I'm onto more materialist notions today. Collecting my new car later and I am shallow and impressionable enough to be getting excited. Too excited in fact to discuss irrelevant fantasy eh?

Pip Pip

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 05:31 AM

Bring it on you oafs!!!! all you are doing is justifying my belief that you are a collective of stumble-bums and arrogant pseudo academics.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 06:20 AM

Bring what on, Conc? Do you really think that you are indulging in genuine debate by any chance? That level of delusion will get you far my friend. Ever thought of taking the cloth? All you need is a firm belief in fantasy and a penchant for strong drink and choir boys. I suspect you have the makings of an arch-bishop at least.

Gateaux!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 06:46 AM

" ...for example providing proof of the existence of God has been often discussed, and it has been generally conceded that "proof" is not available in general."

Well, yes. That's it in a nutshell, pete. You and your fellow Creationists can't prove that there is a God - so why should I, or anyone else, believe in Him?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 08:33 AM

I aint your friend gnomeyo..nor am I a friend to any fraud, con man, self promoter,ginger liberal, gateaux eating galloot, telegraph reading mockers and all their Tory or neo Tory ilk.

Because you do not believe in something, small minded person gnomet, you do not have to mock it...be a little compassionate.. a hell of a lot of people get a lot of spiritual comfort from believing in religion.

I have a lot of friends of the cloth, they are not heavy drinkers or molesters of small boys, they like all their clerical friends would take massive objection to your unthinking, unsubstantiated and crass statements

You lot, and you in particular gmomo, think mocking peoples beliefs is smart, when really it shows you up for the shallow clowns you really are.

So, gnometic, why don't you engage what passes for your mind into gear before you take people like me on.. you really are not in my league.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 09:16 AM

Not in your league? How would we know, as you've never actually made a point in any debate? Dave, dunno about his taking the cloth. Most of the time he sounds like he's touching it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 09:18 AM

Nah, sorry Conc, still not getting it. Is it supposed to be an insult or something? If so, it doesn't really work I'm afraid. May help if it made some sort of sense but that is something we can work on together. What you need to do is keep up with the nonsensical statements but improve the presentation so the gullible may start to believe. If you could include it in a story, something like 'on the sixth day God made man', it could catch on. Until then it is still a fail. Sorry :-(

BTW - Good to see I am getting to your religious pals. I didn't realise so many people read my posts. How many other friends do you have? Any Welsh sheep-shaggers or French surrender-monkeys?

Rowlocks

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 09:53 AM

BTW - Anyone spot the irony?

nor am I a friend to any fraud, con man etc.

closely followed by

I have a lot of friends of the cloth

I absolutely love it. You couldn't make this stuff up. Oh, hang on, someone just did. Mmmmmm.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 10:49 AM

"Because you do not believe in something, small minded person gnomet, you do not have to mock it...be a little compassionate.. a hell of a lot of people get a lot of spiritual comfort from believing in religion."

Yes, they do. But these people are not compassionate when it comes to dealing with those who don't believe in their special religion. Mocking people personally and mocking their belief systems are two different things. I'm not big on mocking much but I certainly see the hypocrisy that so many religious people have in taking offense
when it's their religion that's being questioned and giving offense when they attack
non-believers and scorn them.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerenrd
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 04:07 PM

stringsinger..your point is?

gnomeio.. your return is up to your usual level of crassness.. you really don't get it do you?

shaw...really???!! come on!!!

This is really to easy..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 04:24 PM

Concerened: My point is that you can't expect non-believers to act respectfully to religious people about their religion when non-believers are being persecuted by them for their non-beliefs.

It's a two-way street. If religious people want respect for their religion, they have to show by their behavior that they are worthy of it.

I kinda' like this Pope Francis because he says that non-believers are O.K. if they are good people. In other words, you don't have to believe in god to be good. This is a radical idea among religious believers.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Sep 13 - 04:17 PM

Yes, OK, Conc me old pal. I know it is hard to believe at the moment but believe me, when you have grown up, you will realise that I have helped you immensely. You may think that you know where it is at (man) but you don't. It isn't there at all. It is somewhere else.

Cycle locks.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Sep 13 - 05:54 PM

""Because you do not believe in something, small minded person gnomet, you do not have to mock it...be a little compassionate..""

Priceless comment from the least compassionate poster ever on this forum, who posts solely and specifically to mock. To call this one small minded would be an undeserved compliment.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 21 Sep 13 - 06:14 PM

as you infer, conc, that you should,nt be taken seriously, I shall take your words to me in the same spirit!

quantum....stringsinger?.heavy stuff. I hear that no-one really understands it. all I know about it is that particles[?] inside atoms appear to be alternately visible and then invisible.
assuming I am sort of right in that ,I would suppose that some atheists assume that something was preceded by absolutely nothing making a quantum jump.....just thinking out print.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 13 - 07:20 PM

Never assume anything, pete. Especially that you ase right.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Sep 13 - 07:20 PM

Pete, from what I hear on TV and blogs, Neil deGrasse Tyson and others have questioned whether what we think of as "nothing" is really void of everything that is capable of growing into something. I really don't know too much as to what I'm talking about but I'm picking up on an idea that has been described. What is the nature of "nothing"?

The philosophical problem is that if a god were the First Cause, then would it not be fair to postulate that something else caused the First Cause making it the Second Cause? That's the Cosmological Argument as I understand it.

Quantum mechanics also seems to take issue with the Teleological Argument that somehow everything was made perfect by a god, the basis of the book "The Blind Watchmaker" by Dawkins which assumes that using the analogy of the air liner, some one idea made that perfection happen. It of course was man made and some would argue that it wasn't perfect. There are flies in the Evolutionary ointment as well with such creatures as the lungfish, who was a transition from amphibian to terrestrial life, a complete "flop" as it were being neither good at sea or on land.

When the so-called perfection of a bacteria was used as evidence to suggest that a god made it because it was so self-contained, it was revealed that it had antecedents that were less so and were a part of its development, in the Kitzmiller vrs. Dover, Pennsylvania case defending "creationism". There was a dramatic moment in which the "perfection" of this bacteria, which was said to be self-contained in its perfection was shown to be a part of an evolutionary process disclosed by a number of scientific books dumped on the table of the creationist lawyers. Hence, perfection was relative.

The so-called grand design has peculiarities which could be called flaws if it were done by a supreme engineer.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 01:52 AM

My dear pete. The only quantum jump is expressed in the mental leap that a 2000 year old and older set of stories forms the basis of whatever sentient force you may wish for. I reckon if we were to notice design, it would be more likely now in the age of fairly radical technology than when superstition filled the gaps in knowledge.

Ok. That was a far more serious answer than I intended. I'll stick to concernered or however he spells it. Seems he owns a tambourine after all. Some of his best friends are of the cloth? Well, funnily enough one or two of mine are, including a brother in law back at college at an advanced age to become a vicar. I respect his need to do good works in a community and accept that the dog collar opens doors to help the needy. Society is still set up to put vicars on pedestals.

I also respect that it wasn't the professionals in the Synod that wished to perpetuate inequality, it was the laity.

But still, CofE is in the same boat as any other cult. It is all about controlling your members and swelling the ranks. No matter how much you have a pint with a vicar mate, you remind yourself of the things they say from the pulpit each and every week and your respect for the professional is different to your respect for the mate.

Bugger. Done it again. Tried giving a serious answer.

Oh well.

Here concerned! You realise that once your balls drop and you start growing hairs everywhere your friends of the cloth will drop you both from the choir and the bed?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 07:29 AM

Hey wizzjet!!! gnomet, stringsnapper and the rest of you half educated gullible,latchicos.. you really don't need me to point out your crassness and stupidity..you are more than capable of doing that yourself.

Stringbreaker.. define good.

Gnomet..is that the best you can do?

You are wrong there wizzget..I don't post just to mock..mind you that can be fun.

Look on it as rather a little education for yourselves in how to cast and fly and watch you shoal of sados fight each other to jump on the bait...never fails!!

Here yourself muskcrap!!.. the balls and hair is a great idea.. some of your more brighter playmates have pointed out I am the wrong gender..DuuuuuuuuuuuuuuH You might have realized that a long time ago instead of all your pseudo intellectual posturing... again I have proved to much for you...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 10:43 AM

You are so funny, Conc dear. I love it. I can do far better thanks and probably have already. I know the difference between here and hear anyway. You know, if you keep chatting to the grown ups a bit of intelligence may well rub off on you but that may be your downfall if you want the scripture job. Just remember that some of the people outside your institution will not be as nice to you as we are.

Out of interest though, do you think your friends of the cloth are not con men themselves? Does the fact that they try to sell something that does not exist not sort of tar them as con men of the worse kind? Do you believe what they tell you? If so, I happen to have a friend who passed away in Nigeria leaving no heirs and to get at his fortune I could do with your bank details...

Bull Ox.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket wondering?
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 12:37 PM

So.. Is it a girly after all? We need someone to make the teas after holy bingo...

I should make an effort to know the difference. I go to Thailand in a weeks time. Harder to tell the difference there, although the Adams Apple usually gives the game away.

Dave. This Nigerian. Do you think they could make a will based donation to the new one true religion?

Tell them to tick the gift aid box if they can.

In honour of your gnomish tradition, I say to you

Kerrymuir Durham.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 12:59 PM

"all I know about it is that particles[?] inside atoms appear to be alternately visible and then invisible.
assuming I am sort of right in that ,I would suppose that some atheists assume that something was preceded by absolutely nothing making a quantum jump ..."

Hey, pete! I thought you were comfortable with the concept of ineffability? ... Or was it unintelligibility?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 03:19 PM

I was asked to define good. Well, what it isn't is those who claim that it's god. The history of religion is enough evidence to support this claim.

Inside the human brain, there exists the potential for survival which is actually doing
less harm and more helpful actions to others. "Good" is the realization that how you treat others is important and the better you treat people around you, the better chance our species has for survival. Stopping wars would be a good first step to achieving a kind of "good" for humanity. The antonym, of course, is "bad" which can be defined as the actions of those who look out for themselves at the expense of other's needs.

Franz de Waal in his book, "The Age of Empathy" suggests that because of his scientific study of primate behavior, working together to build common interests, being empathetic and sympathetic to others is possibly built into our DNA. That's one meaningful definition of good.

This is not a requirement for most religions. If it were, you'd have more enlightened behavior from religious people.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars links
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 03:32 PM

stringsinger- I did quick search on Tyson, but theres a lot to wade through.one I did look at called "why evolution is true" was actually a commentary on someone called "albert" being disinvited by Tyson after he blasted krass' new book which apparently purported to establish the validity of the something from nothing idea.
I,m too tied up at present to post anymore.   pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 04:10 PM

I am pretty sure it can't be a girly Messiah M. I have never met a woman so, how can I put this, errrrm, special. Yes, that will do. Don't get me wrong, I am sure that they exist and I would hate anyone to say that a woman cannot be as stupid special as a man should she so choose. But we do need to look at the evidence.

BTW - Went to the Hitching Stone on the Yorks/Lancs border today. Another spectacular view of the Holy Mountain.

Lox.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 05:58 PM

stringsinger- I did quick search on Tyson, but theres a lot to wade through.one I did look at called "why evolution is true" was actually a commentary on someone called "albert" being disinvited by Tyson after he blasted krass' new book which apparently purported to establish the validity of the something from nothing idea.

Can anyone here tell me if this means anything??

I,m too tied up at present to post anymore.   pete.

Oooo, kinky!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 06:06 PM

Conkerened may actually be a new gender, that's my theory and I'm stickin' to it. Bollocks and fanny rolled into one, quite likely with a good covering of droopy man-chesticles and all finished with the finest Brazilian. What I do know is that conkers has never actually made a single debating point. He, she or it is very good at colourfully delivering insults (very amusing, actually, and I've archived one or two in case Wacko decides to make a concerted return). The world with him is richer than one without him. Her. It.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 23 Sep 13 - 01:10 AM

If Stringsinger keeps mentioning Wacko's hero de Waal, your wish may come true.

Here's a tangent for those taking the thread seriously. As all the mainstream religions claim to promote love and respect, does that make those who do wicked things in support of their religion atheists?

After all, on the wireless last night an Immam was disowning those who attacked churches in Pakistan. The Archbishop of Canterbury recently called abortion clinic terrorists in Dumbfuckistan evil.

I take it religious terrorists are atheists then? No wonder loony God botherers use atheist as an insult. They include those who take their own cult too seriously. You can reach world domination by proselytising or by wiping out the competition eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Sep 13 - 04:07 AM

As all the mainstream religions claim to promote love and respect, that makes those who do wicked things in support of their religion....assholes.

Next question?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket nodding
Date: 23 Sep 13 - 04:15 AM

When I posted that I wondered if Joe might wade in. I have in the past questioned those like Joe who see the good in their faith as to why they carry on giving respectability by association to those who see religion as a tool rather than an ethos.

Keep fighting Joe, but to be honest, the race to irrelevance in the eyes of others is being won by the "assholes." Me? I'd use more colourful language to describe them but hey ho.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 23 Sep 13 - 08:22 AM

As all the mainstream religions claim to promote love and respect...

Is that true? I don't see any evidence of it - certainly not in 6,000 years of the Abrahamic Tradition in which Man creates God in his very worst possible own image then goes ahead and imitates him :   

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." — Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion)

*

Love & Respect are human qualities adopted & perverted by religion into something quite evidently meaningless. In real life they exist on a very personal / familial level, they keep things in the balance within the community, however so perilously. But things is mostly good. Religion is made up by misfits and misanthropic outsiders who have failed to fit in to this. It is born of envy and deep seated resentment of misanthropic fuckwits (Old Testament Prophets, Saint Paul et al) who want to pour down Judgement on Humanity for simply Having Fun, because they don't know how to. The Bible is nothing but a relentless catalogue of psychotic misery written, and perpetuated, by a bunch of sad lonely kill joys. They made God in their image - but God died at some point when the concept proved incompatible with the emergent reality that things ain't so bad after all & people stopped going to church because they had better stuff to do.   

In this Post-Religious age, no one knows this more than those who claim to believe. Religion now exists as a sort of Heritage Industry-cum-Revival Folklore. On that level it's not without interest - things like the Thurible at the cathedral at Santiago de Compostella, or the doorway of same (which I've only seen in plaster cast at the V&A) inspire a certain Fortean fascination - but to think that the innocent & wondrous minds of children are still being messed up with the notion that this demonic medieval Idiot God is somehow real (and that he loves them so much he'll send them to hell if they don't do as he says) is one of the more depressing realities of life in the early 21st Century.

Anyhoo - here's a song to cheer the hearts of Militant Atheists everywhere. Remember, we are only Militant because we love the Light of Common Human Reality and want everyone to share in it as is our common right & privilege. Religion exists solely to deny that right, and that reality; as long as it does so then Atheism, and Atheists, will remain Militant.

Linton Kwesi Johnson - Reality Poem

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 13 - 09:03 AM

" "My transition from the taken-for-granted God as the creator of the universe to a more agnostic position came through Rastafari. I must say it was quite an attractive religion in terms of its ideas. It was against the domination of whites over blacks. It was against colonialism. It was for Africa. It was for rejecting a lot of the materialist values associated with capitalist civilisation. And it had a spiritual dimension that saw God and godliness as some kind of spiritual force with which all human beings were imbued.

But although I identified with these values I couldn't identify with the idea – this might sound arrogant – but I couldn't identify with the idea that Haille Selassie was God. He was just a human being like everybody else." "
       So your really an agnostic Bdiver.Sounds like he believes in a Source/God just not the one the unenlightened teachers tried to give him.C

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 23 Sep 13 - 11:24 AM

The other day I had just opened this thread, in order to relish the usual mayhem that tends to occur on these sorts of threads, when there came a knock on the door. I answered said door and was confronted by two ladies representing the Jehovah's Witnesses - a Christian cult of which I know little and don't wish to know more. The next day, whilst walking through my local town centre, I was accosted by an earnest young American gentleman, from the State of Utah, and representing yet another Christian cult called - yes, you've guessed it - the Mormons. Both sets of cultists urged me to read the Bible - whilst the latter also wished me to read another work of fiction called 'The Book of Mormon'.

Is this all just a coincidence or is somebody "up there" trying to tell me something? Perhaps I would benefit from reading the Bible?

On the other hand, the laws of probability say that coincidences are actually quite common because random events often lead to the formation of clusters. Still, God, if you're reading this, please forgive my impertinence ... but then you did create the laws of probability - along with everything else. Are you just trying to confuse me?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 03:15 AM

You see Shimrod, what really happens is that pete, Jerk the Sea Cadet, Ron Davis etc get together and pray for the rest of us to be blighted by annoying God botherers.

Not much point in us trying to do it back to them either. Their God claims to have invented everything including us, yet he only listens to those with a space in their brain for him to fill.

It's a tough life but what can you do?



Les Barker's wonderful song "Jehova's Witness at the Door" is worth a giggle if you feel the need.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 04:06 AM

So your really an agnostic Bdiver.

Balls.

The Spirituality of humanity is common to each & every one of us. It precedes all notions of God and Religion and exists quite independently of them as simply part / parcel of our humanity : our capacity for love, joy, sorrow, heartbreak, compassion, empathy, beauty, art, music, great works, small works, great food, fast food, beer, pop, pies and cake that make it all worthwhile. It's there in our sense of mystery and wonder; crop circles, UFOs, Stonehenge, Inca Roads, pylons, power stations, saxophones, VCS3s, butter & cheese & all. I dare say it's there in our deepest, darkest fears, even our despair that gives rise to our hopes and dreams. We might weep at music, mountains, sunsets, or those stories that truly inspire us. We all feel it equally, just for different things - the only consensus is diversity.

God and godliness are entirely human concepts; we made it up, every last word of it. Just names, ideas, mutable, different for everyone. Because of that - all of that - the whole 50,000 year totality of human experience on Planet Earth of which I am just one tiny though hardly insignificant part (we each of us are the perceptive centres of our own universe : it begins when we are born & it ends when we die) - not only can we say there is no God, but we can also rejoice in that fact. All there is is the truth of being human. The culture. The residues.

Once upon a time people believed in God; once upon a time people died from UTIs. Get over it. No God. No heaven. No hell. No great loss. The human adventure has barely begun.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 05:36 AM

Based on the lifetime numbers of eggs and sperms that your parents produced, the chances of the particular ones that turned into you getting together were 250,000,000,000,000,000 to one. One stray flick of the sperm's flagellum over a nanosecond sending him off-course and it would have been somebody else, not you. For that, you get all those decades of life on Earth. I mean, how good is that! You're a winner! So stop wanting even more, afterlifes an' all that! You've had billions of times more than your share already! Make the most of what you have (and you'll find that easier if you get off your knees!)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket getting his tuppence worth
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 06:02 AM

Yeah. My brother has worked most of his life in 3rd world aid. His view is simple.

Live in the Western World? Think you have issues? Well think on this. You have won the lottery. Congratulations.

I suppose the jam tomorrow aspect of religion is pandering to greed and keeps the inbuilt spoilt brat in us happy. That's why I shake my head over the concept. I can see the garden is beautiful without having to thank the fairies at the bottom of it.

And so can anyone else if the brainwashing either fails or wasn't there in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 06:04 AM

Not sure, Messiah S. Working on the basis that nothing ever starts or finishes, just changes state, I think there may be an afterlife. We may not be aware of it but when we shuffle off this mortal coil we do become something else. My theory is that most of us will become glitches on the internet and will pop up every now again as stupid posts on various forums...

Bald Ox

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 07:08 AM

As Ricky Gervais said, that because Atheists don't believe in an afterlife, they have everything LIVE for and nothing to DIE for. As for my molecules - I've shed countless billions of the things over the last 52 years which are still out there somewhere (matter can't be created or destroyed) but I'm not aware of a single one of them.

After life, after shave, don't hold with any of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 09:53 AM

I'm coming back as a slug so that I can eat Wacko's lettuces.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 10:22 AM

Im coming back as Wacko so I can fertilise my lettuces with my own bullshit.

If we come back as gnomes there appears to be a commune of the buggers in my neigjbour's garden. If Einstein is contemplating, the fishing rod makes an ideal prop.

I'd like to come back 30 years ago as Kate Bush's loofah.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 01:27 PM

"It seems easy, too easy in fact to elevate his stance to that of providing an alternative to religion. I have read some of his books and nowhere did I see evidence for this. As he is a scientist I reckon if he had such a mission, he would give clear evidence to promote it. "

Musket

Indeed he does promote alternatives to religion. He has a foundation and a mission statement.

May I point out sir that there are logical limitations to using your own lack of knowledge as a point of evidence in an argument. Just because you don't know it does not make it not so.


Our Mission

Our mission is to support scientific education, critical thinking and evidence-based understanding of the natural world in the quest to overcome religious fundamentalism, superstition, intolerance and human suffering.

The Richard Dawkins Foundation (US)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 02:45 PM

of course that's overcoming all intolerance - except his own!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 03:22 PM

"If Stringsinger keeps mentioning Wacko's hero de Waal, your wish may come true."

Well you know, de Waal is a non-believer. His books are worth reading.

"of course that's overcoming all intolerance - except his own!

Pete, he isn't intolerant like the fundamentalist Christians are. He is actually pretty open minded and has religious friends. I join him in intolerance for destructive attitudes on the part of some Christians and other religious persuasions when they proclaim how right they are and everyone else is wrong. This is the problem with an absolutist ideology whether religious or otherwise. Dawkins has stated time and again if someone could show him scientific evidence for the existence of a god, he would agree. But, Pete, no one has been able thus far to do so.

Blandiver, you are again hitting the nail on the head. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I personally think it's important to understand how and why people have religious ideas.
I have read Gerald Heard, St. Francis of Asissi, some of Thomas Aquinas, most of the bible, the bhagavad gita, and omnivorous amounts of religious matter. I'm no theological authority but I've been exposed to enough of it to know that it is irrelevant to my life personally although I've found all of it interesting. One interesting feature of Dawkins is his interviews with religious people, listening to them, and inevitably commenting on them.
Most non-believers are humanists with interest in how people think whether they agree with the people or not. I share those interests.

I will have a problem with terms like "your holiness" or anything that makes as the Quakers say "Undue distinction between mankind".

In this sense, I don't consider myself at all militant but like so many of you, I am a searcher but I put my reason before any "faith". Religious people have things to teach me about behavior and attitudes.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 04:15 PM

The Church of the Naivety is indeed a broad church. ...

A word to the wise. Don't go telling pete "he isn't intolerant like the fundamental Christians. " pete does have to live with himself you know. ...

Ok. Our nautical friend has found a loose Chink in what he thinks is the armour of his straw man. I shall attempt to humour him although I doubt he will see any humour.

Overcoming intolerance and fundamentalism sounds good to me. I doubt it amounts to being a religion though. For that you need an imaginary friend to be grateful to and vulnerable children and adults to teach it to.

No. I admire his crusade. Advancing scientific discovery and throwing scorn on those who seek to control others. .. yeah. I fail to see how that is wrong on an intellectual level.

Oh... wrong level. Wrong sailor. Bugger.




Stringsinger. I know de Waal doesn't own a tambourine. I've known it for some time but let Jerk the Sea cadet think he is so bloody clever and original in his posts. Jerk started the original thread quoting de Waal in order to provoke an opportunity to discredit Dawkins in the way his church tells it's members to.

He just assumed nobody would notice his deniability of the de Waal article by saying it doesn't represent his own views.

Quite.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 05:35 PM

you might perhaps not be surprised, stringsinger, that I think evolutionism is an absolutist position. I know it has many denominations [neo Darwin,punctuated equilibrium,multiverse etc] but the overall paradigm is sacrosanct.
dawkins is IMO not likely to accept evidence for the existence of God , but conversely he has been unable to present evidence for evolutionism. when asked for an example of a genetic mutation or an evolutionary process which can be seen to increase the information in the genome, he was stumped. the eventual answer given hardly addressed the question.
I should have thought this was pretty fundamental to Darwinism.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 05:59 PM

The trouble is pete, that you think we're all so bloody stupid that we'll forget that you've chundered out this tripe before. You do not understand what evidence is, you don't know what a mutation is, you don't know what a genome is, you don't have the faintest idea of what "increasing information in the genome" means, and you wouldn't have the foggiest idea of how to interpret anything a tenth as complicated as Richard Dawkins answering a question about science (because you don't know what science is). Your "opinions" are nothing more than the vile regurgitations of some moron or other on some silly website you lean on like a cripple on crutches. You are serially dishonest with us, and, lamentably, you're utterly dishonest with yourself. And you're incredibly lazy to boot.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 06:11 PM

Mr. Shaw, if your scientific knowledge is superior to pete's you have yet to demonstrate that with your words. Using scientific theories as dogma does nothing to advance science or your credibility.

Please note that I am not saying that pete is right or even that he is making sense. I am saying that he is making about the same amout of sense that you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 06:17 PM

"No. I admire his crusade. Advancing scientific discovery and throwing scorn on those who seek to control others. .. yeah. I fail to see how that is wrong on an intellectual level."

The point I made had nothing to do with whether you admire it or not. In fact until I posted that mission statement , you did not know it existed. But you still had the nerve to say that some other person was wrong based on your ignorance.

I don't learn much in discussions with deliberately ignorant people. I guess I get some experience in dealing with deliberately ignorant people. Not much else.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 08:57 PM

Dearie me, Wacko, you've really lost it this time. You have used the terms "pete" and "scientific knowledge" in the same sentence. However, I must say how good it is to see you back. I can hardly wait for your next obscure and infantile contribution, though I fear I have to be abed presently. Do continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 02:02 AM

The nerve, as you put it, is the assumption I hadn't noticed the mission / vision of the foundation Dawkins started. Funnily enough some of us are capable of reading and in my case capable of being curious.

Belonging as such runs counter to my disdain of pseudo society clubs in general and in that sense, his foundation has at least one thing in common with religions. But there again so do stamp collecting clubs so don't get excited.

If you don't learn much in discussions, that will explain how your ignorance manages to come over loud and clear ly confused.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 03:46 AM

This is all getting far to serious again. Where is our good friend Conc. I miss him. Her. It.

Door locks.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket being serious
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 03:57 AM

This IS getting serious. On another thread, one of the serious ones here is trying to impose rules on what you can post and how often.

I propose our new true religion has a troll chapter? We can be a broad church that allows religious zealots and associated bigots to join us, in our laity section, and especially in the troll chapter.

They can have weekly meetings where they complain to each other how rational people laugh at them when they take their god out of their head and try to apply it to hard wired morality and altruism. They can lay bets on the date and time their bloke invented things, both new and already extinct. I reckon they'd be happy. We could have a rule that they have to be taken seriously to their faces to stop them whinging. Tell you what, even tell them this is a form of equality but at the same time have them think it is a form of privilege, just like religious people do now.

They do need to be guarded though. How many gnome guards can you muster?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 04:00 AM

" I know it has many denominations [neo Darwin,punctuated equilibrium,multiverse etc]"

You know nowt about science or evolution Pete. How can "multiverse" be a denomination of "evolutionism"? Explain.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 05:33 AM

Well, there is all them mates of mine in your neighbours garden. Multiply that by the number of gardens that may contain Gnomes and I think you will see there are a fair few of us. Proven scientific fact that is!

Didn't like that Broadchurch much. Thought he was better in Doctor Who.

Have you seen the thread on 'What religion is God?' Maybe you could put them out of their misery?

BTW - If I have been reborn a Gnome, what was I before? Could I have been a Troll or is that what I must aspire too? How many other mythical characters must I be reborn as before I can join the mythical being in the mythical Nirvana?

Thingies.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 06:16 PM

well stu, you may know massive amounts more about science than me, but I reckon I,m on pretty safe ground in my estimation of multiverse as being unobservable and untestable [same goes for origins science in general] and is therefore a faith position. the use of the word "denomination" is analogous rather than actual.
I had previously given a dictionary definition of religion, which covered atheism/evolutionism, hence the gentle jibe.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 07:49 PM

well stu, you may know massive amounts more about science than me

I have a pet slug who knows a million times more about science than you do.

but I reckon I,m on pretty safe ground in my estimation of multiverse as being unobservable and untestable

Well now, most scientists on the planet regard the multiverse hypothesis as nothing more than just that. But pete, you hypocrite you, you can ignorantly pontificate about this whilst at the same time prattling on about your God, who is a million times more unobservable and untestable than any multiverse notion.

I had previously given a dictionary definition of religion, which covered atheism/evolutionism, hence the gentle jibe

Oh, "had" you really? Where is it then? And what dictionary, pray tell, included a mention of "evolutionism" in its "definition of religion"? Do try to curb the stupid lies, old chap.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 12:26 AM

"I have a pet slug who knows a million times more about science than you do. "

Another scientific statement form our humble defender of science.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 01:06 AM

Go on then Jack. Prove otherwise.

It is perfectly possible that Steve has a pet slug. Its mental capacity and thought process has the starting gun of a brain area of sorts, altruism towards slug communities and the ability to shout "Big Issue! " at passing snails.

Use of metaphor is a human trait. Not confined to biblical stories.

That's a fiver you owe me Co Messiah S.

Just a note on the multiverse hypothesis. That is a scenario that would explain certain phenomena that puzzle us. The key point being it is a proposed answer to a question that came first. Creationism is an answer that never begged a rational question.

Sorry oh Gnomish one. I reckon that answer was too serious. No matter. If I rip the piss a bit, pete will ignore it and Seaman Stains will shake his head and tell me I am not being serious. Gosh I never noticed. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 04:05 AM

You still don't get it about science, do you, pete?

Some scientists may display the human failing of dogmatism but science, as a whole is not dogmatic. Scientific models are always, and necessarily incomplete. On-going research, into the various fields of science, lead to new models and new perspectives on old models all the time. In scientific terms there is no such thing as absolute truth.

You, and your fellow religious cultists, on the other hand, fervently believe (poor deluded fools that you are) that you are in possession of the absolute truth. And you also believe that this absolute truth is contained in an old book of dubious origins.

The Jehova's Witnesses who visited me the other day left me a booklet on Creationism vs Evolution. This booklet resorts to the same logical fallacy that you use all the time i.e. the authors purport to have found inconsistencies in current models of Evolution, "therefore", they triumphantly proclaim, science must be wrong and Biblical accounts of Creation must be true! That is stupid, illogical nonsense!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 06:56 AM

"well stu, you may know massive amounts more about science than me"

Whether I do or not is irrelevant; what is important is understanding what science is and how it works, and you don't need to be a scientist to know that. You do have to get off your arse do some work though to familiarise yourself with the philosophies and methodologies that make 'science' what it is, and explains how it's come to be practiced as it is and how it changes with time.

I feel I can discuss religion as I was raised as CoE, also attended Methodist and finally a rather excellent free church, from being a bab up to my teenage years. I read the New Testament in my 20s and still retain a vague interest in theology, although I became a practicing buddhist in the Tibetan tradition for a while too (I did read some Zen texts as well, which were quite remarkable); I received teachings directly from His Holiness the Dali Lama.

The problem is Pete, your statements betray a complete lack of understanding of science, which makes me think you might not have done the groundwork, and just using words like 'multiverse' doesn't mean you are actually discussing science. You're not alone in this, as many, many climate change deniers, BANDits and politicians all use the language of science without understanding what they are actually discussing.

Time to do the groundwork.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 07:57 AM

In response to some of you half educated morons, the same prunes who think I don't contribute anything valid to this forum and attempt to slag me of i n your pathetic way mebe should consider this: Present-day society is wholly based on the exploitation of the vast masses of the working class by a tiny minority of the population.
That is the class of the landowners and that of the capitalists.

It is a slave society, since the "free" workers, who all their life work for the capitalists, are "entitled" only to such means of subsistence as are essential for the maintenance of slaves who produce profit, for the safeguarding and perpetuation of capitalist slavery.

The economic oppression of the workers inevitably calls forth and engenders every kind of political oppression and social humiliation, the coarsening and darkening of the spiritual and moral life of the masses. The workers may secure a greater or lesser degree of political liberty to fight for their economic emancipation, but no amount of liberty will rid them of poverty, unemployment, and oppression until the power of capital is overthrown. Religion is one of the forms of spiritual oppression which everywhere weighs down heavily upon the masses of the people, over burdened by their perpetual work for others, by want and isolation. Impotence of the exploited classes in their struggle against the exploiters just as inevitably gives rise to the belief in a better life after death as impotence of the savage in his battle with nature gives rise to belief in gods, devils, miracles, and the like. Those who toil and live in want all their lives are taught by religion to be submissive and patient while here on earth, and to take comfort in the hope of a heavenly reward. But those who live by the labour of others are taught by religion to practise charity while on earth, thus offering them a very cheap way of justifying their entire existence as exploiters and selling them at a moderate price tickets to well-being in heaven. Religion is opium for the people. Religion is a sort of spiritual booze,   in which the slaves of capital drown their human image, their demand for a life more or less worthy of man.

So there!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 08:04 AM

Well done! Glad you agree with the co-Messiahs and I about religion. Trouble is, that amount of sense immediately disqualifies you from writing the scriptures. And I miss being a Yegg or a Cake Eater.

Horlicks!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 09:02 AM

You copied and pasted that, concerened, you cheating bugger! It is grammatical in a way that is far beyond your linguistic abilities and, stylistically, is nothing like your usual stuff. One has only to compare your intro with the substantive in order to glean that much. Still, I like it. Sort of. A bit of a rant of the sort you might hear from a bloke who thinks the Socialist Worker's Party is a bit right-wing, but not bad for you. keep it coming, you old scrotum you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 09:03 AM

Grrr. I corrected that small k before posting. What's occurrin'?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 09:06 AM

Damn! You had me going there for a minute, Conc me owd pal. Well done again for that. I thought you had actually learned to reason and how to put your point forward and then I realised it was such a different style to your usual it could not be so.

It's all down to Lenin.

You could have at least brought yourself more up to date and copied Lennon word for word instead.

Still, considering, I think it could be at least a C for effort. Must try harder.

Hillocks

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,KEMAT
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 09:32 AM

Militant Atheism is not a Religion!
It is a Cause directed to the Liberation of humanity from the shackles of Ignorance, Lies, Superstition, Greed, Oppression and Wholesale Bloody Minded Idiocy in the name of an Entirely Non-existent Supernatural Imperialist Autocracy!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 11:41 AM

I would agree but the argument being made here by some is that somehow a militant cause is automatically a religion because it has passionate devotees. That would make militant Democrats a religious order, or militant revolutionaries a religious order or for that matter militant animal rights activists or even Greenpeace a religious order. Or militant scientists or militant union organizers. Is there somehow an absurd fallacy here? Can you be militant without being religious? Apparently there are those on this thread that don't think so.

Again, I ask, is any criticism or examination of religious beliefs deemed to be
religious in itself? Suppose there is militant criticism or examination of religious beliefs? Does the "militant" adjective mean "religious"?

Another question, do you have to believe in a god to be "religious"? Is, for an example, Stalinist Communism a religion? (It certainly had supplicating devotees
and a hierarchical structure). Some might argue that it had a religiosity about it.

When terms start getting thrown around, you run into a quagmire of semantics
and meanings.

The fact remains that "militant atheism" has an accusatory tone when used by theists, generally to discredit non-belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket can't wait to tell all
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 12:35 PM

Hey hey!

I'm a capitalist. Oh bliss, concernered can work out what they cut and pasted and once they've begun to understand what they pretend to mean, they can point the finger at me and say it's all my fault!

Fecking well minted too me old duck.

(Too poor to put anything in the collecting plate at the next bingo session though, co Messiah and associated gnome. You know we always leave it to the church poor to put money on the plate. We posh gits only attend to be able to look down on others.)

I worship a God too, or used to when I was in business. The god has a name. Mammon.

The funny thing is, all religious people worship that particular God, they are just too ashamed to admit that is what it is all about. False piety and all that to disguise that money and resource equal power. During the next hymn etc and don't forget to tick the gift aid box.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 02:46 PM

O dear................

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 03:55 PM

I am a social, egalitarian, philanthropic, capitalist. As long as doesn't involve giving money to imaginary beings it will do for me. Oh, hang on, Gnomes are NOT imaginary are they? Or Lightning Ballers?

Brass Tacks

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 05:45 PM

"the argument being made here by some is that somehow a militant cause is automatically a religion because it has passionate devotees. "

No it hasn't. That is a straw man arguments typical of people who who will go to wild rhetorical and illogical lengths to promote their own point of view. Much the same way that some religious extremists promote their own points of view.

You are constantly proving that you personally are as zealous as any Internet Christian I have ever met. Whether or not you want yo say you are religious about it or not, is entirely your choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 06:09 PM

...and so the Magic Roundabout continues it's merry way.

Time for bed said Zeberdee

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 06:18 PM

"You are constantly proving that you personally are as zealous as any Internet Christian I have ever met. "

No, this is not true. If anything, I am opposed to an authoritarian way of looking at religion or non-religion. I sense a strong streak of authoritarianism in posts of this nature and an accusatory tone which sheds no light on this issue.

The irony (if not downright funny) is the recent advent of a so-called "Atheist church"
which is springing up worldwide. It seems to me that the baggage of religion is being carried into this sphere and the Sunday Assemblies seem to downplay atheist ideas to attract followers.

" That is a straw man arguments typical of people who who will go to wild rhetorical and illogical lengths to promote their own point of view."

This is a straw man argument used by people of a religious persuasion against people of non-belief as if the religious points of view are somehow "sane". This is not in harmony with the notion of "turning the other cheek", bringing into focus the hypocrisy of some who would prefer to accuse and set in judgement their authoritarian views.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 06:39 PM

You are constantly proving that you personally are as zealous as any Internet Christian I have ever met.

Interesting point there, Wacko. But do tell us: how many religion threads has Musket started, and how many have you started? So who's the zealot, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 06:53 PM

O dear................

You see, concerened, it should be "Oh dear". Yes it isn't important. But it does show what a bloody charlatan you are. That last rather erudite and super-grammatical (though ranting) post of yours wasn't, er, actually you, was it? Whatever bollocks us lot here talk, at least it's our own bollocks. You have shown that, when you're any good, you're only any good when you're talking someone else's bollocks. Nice one son...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 07:46 PM

"Interesting point there, Wacko. But do tell us: how many religion threads has Musket started, and how many have you started? So who's the zealot, huh? "

I was quoting stringsinger Mr science and logic. What does Musket have to do with that? Huh? You'd be formidable if you had even below average reading skills.

"" That is a straw man arguments typical of people who who will go to wild rhetorical and illogical lengths to promote their own point of view.""

Way to once more ignore the point by providing dogmatic non-sequitors, But you are NOTHING like a religious zealot.(sarcasm) It is hard to take your criticism of me seriously when it is so divorced from truth or reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 07:58 PM

Answer the friggin' question, Wacko. How many threads has Musket started on religious topics, and how many have you started? Don't you think that true zealots start more threads? Answer the question, Wackers, otherwise feel free to be condemned as a hypocrite of the highest order!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 10:29 PM

Yes Mr. Scientist. Starting threads is the true sign of a fanatic. Not turning every thread that has a hint of religion into a childish bulling insult party. It certainly isn't calling people names like "whacko" when they do not share your beliefs.

Stringsinger starts many threads on this topic. As many as I do, I am sure. Are you calling him a fanatic?

Are you trying to convince us that you are a fanatic? Or are you just being careless in your thoughts? Again?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 01:12 AM

Regular readers may recall I did start a thread in the BS section earlier this year.

Granted it was about ear wax and my stupidity with a cotton wool stick. ...

No. I haven't started a thread on any form of superstition. In fact threads I have started have been on a different abstraction. That of music.

All together now!

Fight the good fight with all your might!
Onward Christian Soldiers!



Imagine there's no heaven.
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky

In this task your objective is to separate the zealot from the rational person.
Ten marks are available and you have ten minutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 02:56 AM

All worship the Holy earwax! I have the Messiah's cotton bud...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 03:43 AM

Have you been rummaging in the bins of our local GP surgery?

Again?

You won't find many converts to the true religion in our neck of the woods. The Wesley family are from around here and you can't move for busloads of Methodists on pilgrimages.

I do find it curious that Jerk is admonishing string singer for trying to perpetuate a thread he bloody started in the first place.

All string singer was doing was trying to dissuade idiots like us spoiling it by taking the piss.

Nice try and all that.

Gonads

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 04:00 AM

Noooo... You don't really need to have the actual item. Just say it is a genuine relic and the gullible faithful will believe. I can get a good deal on bone fragments, pieces of cloth and lumps of wood from a bloke up the road with a horse and cart if you like :-)

Hollyhocks!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 04:15 AM

Whoa! Hold up! I'm having a change of heart about this atheism business on account of some recent compelling evidence just in from a Russian Scientist who has photographed a soul leaving the body via the Gas Discharge Visualization Method. I guess this changes everything! Looks like Jack the Sailor Man was right all along...

http://www.adguk-blog.com/2013/09/scientist-photographs-soul-leaving-body.html

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 05:06 AM

O dear; or should it be o dear? ..shaw you are as pretentious and nit picking as the rest of your phony cronies, or should it be crony's?

as for you talking your own bollocks, none of you have an original thought in your collective heads.All I see here is a re hash of stuff you have read,or another form of plagiarism?

Before you start arguing plagiarism and semantics or grammar with me; get your FACTS right.

I never claimed the statement in my last post as my own..you was only asked to CONSIDER..get it ?

Here is something else for you semi educated oafs to consider;some is my words some isn't, might be a bit beyond you, but you decide.

What is the difference between “O” and “Oh”? An example in hymms from the magical mans followers could be i.e. “BLESS THE LORD OH MY
SOUL” vs. “O God Beyond All Praising”?

You see phony, there is no practical difference at all. The “O” (or spelled “Oh” in English) is the voc in the hymsative article in Attic Greek and in Latin, and the name that followed it was in the appropriate case (vocative, meaning direct address).

The American slang “Yo” to get someone’s attention is exactly the same thing. (I find it interesting that 4000+ years later, the same phoneme means the same thing; rather like Kodaly’s observations on so-mi-la-so-mi!)

In Greek, it was an omega with a rough breathing; scholars disagree on
whether the rough breathing had an [h] sound or not, hence the KJV “Ho,
everyone that thirsteth” in Isaiah. A Hebrew/Greek scholar would have to tell you whether or not the “Ho” of the KJV reflects the Septuagint Greek only, or whether the actual Hebrew vocative article is “ho” or “oh” or something different.

Shaw, I never did Hebrew, only Greek and Latin at the seminar I attended.What little I did learn was that the Greek O” is the article used by St. Paul-- “O Corinthians” and has a formal connotation as well as, in his context, some urgency about it.

In modern English we use “Oh” in the formal vocative sense (“Oh, seaman stayns, could you...”) this is as well as in an much more informal way to preface a sudden thought or to express surprise.

You see shaw, before you start shooting your big flapper about and argueing something with someone, at least do your homework?

See phony...I still am to much for you

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 05:56 AM

Conc, me old pal. You are a gem. You are a man; a woman; learned Greek and Latin at a Seminar; have many clerical friends; preach Marxism; are a master of debating (particularly the mass kind...); talk complete bollocks and can make up things at the drop of a hat. You are my hero :-)

Tell you what though - Less of the cut and paste eh? It is blatantly obvious which is plagiarism and which is your own work. The copied words actually make some sense, even out of context. You are on the last phase of consideration for inclusion in our new hierarchy. Making things up is great. Just what we need to start a religion. But obvious C&P just gives the game away. I would be sad to lose you but almighty beings cannot be seen to be soft.

Sorrox?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 08:12 AM

You just don't get it do you gnomet?

It don't matter whether it is C&P or not..it is the research that goes into the statements along with the content.. that is the nub of the job .

This is invaluable when it comes to showing up yeggs and cakeating phonies such as shaw.

Don't tell me none of you have never cut and pasted..you lot do it all the time on this forum..especially when you are slagging me of with your low blows and shameful comments.


As usual I would appreciate it if ANY one of you can disprove anything I have said..plagiarised or no.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 08:57 AM

Blimey, Conc. That's a bit of a tall order isn't it? Firstly, to disprove anything you have said would involve reading back through your posts and I don't think anyone would want to that. Secondly, to disprove anything you need to have something to disprove. Seeing as you have never actually said anything it is indeed impossible to disprove. Yea, OK, I could post up counter arguments to Marxist philosophy but, to be honest, I just couldn't be arsed. So, in a nutshell, yes, I cannot disprove anything you have said. Except maybe by saying I have never broken into a safe in my life and I don't like cake but that is being picky.

I suppose you win that one so we will all go away and sit, aghast, at your superior intellect. Trouble is, I am that distraught I am no longer able to offer you useful employment. Back to the institution for you I'm afraid. Still, I suppose someone of your mighty wit and resource will soon find something else.

Cocks!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 09:03 AM

Just out of interest, how are you informally known, 'concerened'?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 10:10 AM

Informally he/she /it is referred to by others as

Here he comes

And

There he goes

I on the other hand have a true genuine holy relic with a certificate of authenticity. When they built the new kop at Hillsborough they dug up the old tiered stand and flogged off sections of the concrete base to fans. It has been in four different gardens with me and right now forms the entrance into a small orchard just up from my raised beds.

I planted white Rose bushes either side but luckily Mrs Musket failed to see the sad Dick the Shit reference despite watching The White Queen on the telly the other month.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 12:26 PM

Musket, I think that you may be getting over-excited(?) Perhaps a short nap might help? I realise now that the person whose 'formal' name is 'concerened' (informal name unknown) can have that effect on people.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Mr Happy
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 12:47 PM

'Concerened'

A typo?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 06:05 PM

to those telling me to do the groundwork and stop giving an opinion.-
please define the scientific method.
is it not something to do with what can be established by observable,repeatable and testable verification, until such time as same method may modify or in theory, nullify formerly established results.
then tell me how you can do experiments on the past and demonstrate evolutionism conforming to science.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 08:45 PM

then tell me how you can do experiments on the past and demonstrate evolutionism conforming to science.

No point telling you anything, old chap, because you don't understand anything about anything whether we tell you or not. And, when we do tell you, you don't listen anyway. You haven't got a hope in hell of ever understanding "the scientific method", so just bugger off.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 08:57 PM

Concerened, old chumlet, we don't mind whether you copy 'n' paste everything you post, as long as you're honest enough (which you are patently not) to distinguish between what is your stuff and what is someone else's. Frankly, dear fellow, you have been found out here. And that big blustering post of yours is simply an attempt to cover up your embarrassment. You have actually confirmed my earlier point, that you have never contributed a single worthwhile point to any discussion/debate/argument here. Regurgitating someone else's point of view is as near as you've ever got and as near as you'll ever get. Shame. You do appear to have the odd view worth airing, but you prefer to get your knickers in a twist trying to invent what you see as colourful ways of "insulting" other people (epic fail on that score, dear chap, by the way, as you're even less amusing than Wacko Jacko). Still, we do admire your balls, even though they are quite possibly somewhat smaller than you seem to think they are. Keep calm and carry on, as they say.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 04:07 AM

"...is it not something to do with what can be established by observable,repeatable and testable verification, until such time as same method may modify or in theory, nullify formerly established results."

Yes, it's something to do with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 04:17 AM

" ...is it not something to do with what can be established by observable,repeatable and testable verification, until such time as same method may modify or in theory, nullify formerly established results."

On the other hand, science is most definitely NOT about regarding everything that you read in an old book as the absolute truth!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 06:41 AM

sigh........................I can see I will have to get the building blocks and flip charts (they already has the crayons) out for the fraud shaw and the brain dead gnomet.

I see I need to point out AGAIN that the whole point of what I do is responding to you phoneys.

That is to remark imho , you are a bunch of patronising, self opinionated, sneering, semi educated ginger liberals - deny that shaw.

What is there to be found out on phony? I do not bluster, I am not ashamed of C&P ping a coupla times, I fessed up if you read the posts correctly.

If failing in my "colorful" comments or insults..well it seems to get you and seaman staynes, stringslurper, wizzjet, and the rest of the yeggs and cake eaters going.

Over to you........

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 10:11 AM

Yes, you have big balls all right. So big that they conceal your own irony from your gaze when you rattle on about frauds and phoneys when it was you with the copy-and-pasting who only "fessed up" when tackled! You're not funny when you try to be witty, but you're bloody hilarious when you don't intend to be. Stick around. You seem to have more ridicule-inducing potential than Wacko ever had.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 10:20 AM

"is it not something to do with what can be established by observable,repeatable and testable verification, until such time as same method may modify or in theory, nullify formerly established results."

What? Try this:

The Scientific Method

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 04:57 PM

they already has the crayons

That is to remark imho ,

I am not ashamed of C&P ping

Wonderful stuff, Conc, old lad. Shame you have already lost the opportunity to utilise your unique style to author our mighty works.

Look, lets make this easy. I honestly don't know if you are terminally stupid, if you are genuinely deluded or whether you are really clever. Let's assume it is the latter. If that is the case you will realise that this is getting really boring and your mighty intellect will be best served performing some other task. If you are really stupid you will not understand any of this. If you are so deluded that you think you are winning some sort of argument here then nothing will stop you from continuing.

Whatever the case is and whichever course of action you chose you cannot fail to be seen for how you present yourself. Which is, to be honest, idiotic in the extreme. Carry on digging anyway.

Bottox.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 05:46 PM

your mighty intellect will be best served performing some other task.

Nah Dave. We gave him the task of producing the Wacko plank-walking medallions, remember, and he managed three per week. Three per bloody week. By the time he'd upped production the demand had waned (he don't do crest-of-waves, innit), and we had to cut our losses by melting 'em all down again in order to manufacture a job lot of co-Messiah statuettes (which are almost ready to wow the market, by the way - watch this space). We do have altar boy vacancies he could apply for, but only for those applicants who eschew those inconvenient underpants.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 05:54 PM

Ahhhh. OK. Thanks Messiah S.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 06:23 PM

thankyou stu.
best I can see, this enlarges on my take, rather than detract from it.
steve continues to bluster ,as though that was a reasonable answer to a simple question.
shimrod charges that creationists only rely on the bible on origins. in one sense he is correct since we believe it is based on history as well as [what we believe] is revelation.
but it is consistent with science .
1- positively by reference to an intelligent designer being in our experience the best explanation of anything being made and/or exhibiting massive complexity.
2- negatively by demonstrating all the failures and problems of evolutionary ideas.eg
a- it requires some sort of naturalistic miracle without a miracle maker!
this is usually passed over as - we don't know yet - begging the question that there will be an answer to what is evidently impossible.
b- things like easily degrading materials still being present, that ought to be long gone if really MYO.

NONE OF THIS PROVES that Christian faith is true but is consistent with it,- as most scientists in our history maintained, and many still do.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 08:47 PM

None of it proves you actually have a brain. Why don't you just put a sock in it and leave us merely suspecting that you're a clueless idiot?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 03:00 AM

" ... shimrod charges that creationists only rely on the bible on origins. in one sense he is correct since we believe it is based on history as well as [what we believe] is revelation.
but it is consistent with science ."

I've no doubt that the Bible is "based" on history - but that doesn't mean that it contains the absolute truth. As for "revelation" - that just means that you believe that something has been revealed - why should I believe it and why should I be impressed?

It's NOT consistent with science - and every scientific observation and measurement takes us further and further away from the biblical account of " Creation". In fact, we're now so far away from it that it disappeared over the horizon years ago!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 05:26 AM

The bible is based on history? I am sure I have mentioned this before but it is worth repeating. I was talking to my friend Ted Edwards about Dan Brown's 'Da Vinci Code'. I mentioned that because it contains a few verifiable facts people seem to accept that it must be true. "People have done the same with the Bible for thousands of years" replied Ted.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket nodding
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 05:40 AM

Aye but not that many thousands of years eh Dave? After all, you can't predate when he made the earth.......

Well, my co messiah and associated gnome, I am about to embark on a pilgrimage tomorrow to Thailand. I suspect they don't do real religious things like bingo, but I will get dragged round their temples I suppose by Mrs Musket who likes doing such things.

I shall see if there are any tips we can incorporate into the real true path and claim it as ours all along. Up to yet, I see that the essence of life is a hint of lemongrass in all the cooking, always carry your passport on you and check for an Adams Apple before getting too excited about their interest in you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 05:51 AM

Have a good 'un, Messiah M.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 07:33 AM

Sorry I was a little late in responding; I have been ministering to the sick, feeding the hungry and helping people lest fortunate than my self.

I do this freely as I do not have the time or the inclination to spend loads of time on mudcat sites being judgmental, sneering, patronising and abusive such as shaw, gnomet and the rest of the nomarks.

gnomad, I am neither deluded, nor am I terminally stupid nor am i super intelligent, I do however have a sense of humour and a fair idea what constitutes a phony and a fraud.

take your choice... have a really nice day... you hear?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 09:02 AM

I am very glad to hear that you do have a sense of humour, Conc. You certainly need it. Nice to see that you have spotted the difference between here and hear as well although your punctuation and grammar still leaves a lot to be desired :-) As to what constitutes a phoney and a fraud, I think the father of Taoism put it rather better than I ever could.

He who knows others is wise; he who knows himself is enlightened.

BTW - I have also just been helping people less fortunate than myself although I suspect they did not notice.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 10:42 AM

Note that I put the "based" in inverted commas, Dave. I intended this as shorthand for: "Some parts of the Bible may be loosely based on verifiable historical facts, allowing for mistranslations, misinterpretations, differences and discontinuities in authorship and quite a bit of mythologising, poetic licence and out and out fiction". I hope that that clarifies that point?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 11:59 AM

No need for any explanation, Shimrod. I did realise that based was indeed the word in question. Thanks anyway.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 11:53 PM

every scientific measurement...?
how do you apply the scientific method to the long gone [supposedly existing MYO]past shimrod.
elephant hurling!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket not flying till tonight
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 02:53 AM

How then do you apply your own method to translations of long gone documents pete?

Ark hurling?

Anyway. All my fingers are useful. Considering I was led to believe that the Bible has Noah shagging his own daughters to kick start the human race again, surely there would be at least one superfluous digit? My own research into this includes observation since buying a house in North Lincolnshire.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 03:15 AM

"every scientific measurement...?
how do you apply the scientific method to the long gone [supposedly existing MYO]past shimrod."

Oh, you know, all those things like stratification, radioactive dating methods, comparison of fossils with other extinct and living creatures etc., etc., etc. Plus, of course, the flood of recent discoveries in fields like physics, astronomy and cosmology. All of those things that you 'Creationists' are determined not to believe in.

An image comes into my mind of a silly old man attempting to stop a tsunami by waving his arms in the air!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 03:22 AM

Three score times ten.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 11:48 AM

"a- it requires some sort of naturalistic miracle without a miracle maker!"

Huh? That's not science, it's a creationist statement. Show me a single peer-reviewed paper that says any natural process (including evolution) requires a "naturalistic miracle", whatever one of those actually is.


"b- things like easily degrading materials still being present, that ought to be long gone if really MYO."


Righto, apart from the rather ambiguous phrase "things like easily degrading materials" which lacks any specific reference to whatever you're talking about, this statement seems to demonstrate a continued lack of understanding of the whole concept of science.

Who says they should be gone? You? Me? If by careful testing, confirmation and peer review we learn they're still present then we can assume they're not as easily degradable as we thought. There y'go - something learnt. Science in action.

I don't know for certain whose work you're referring to here, but think I can guess and this is an old Creationist trope that misunderstands what is a reasonably contentious hypothesis. Thing is, this Creationist nonsense makes the science sound far less interesting than it actually actually is. The testing of hypothesis often throws up new discoveries that lead to greater understanding and progress. It's all good.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 03:03 PM

that was lot ,musket, seduced by his daughters who were worried about not getting husbands.
many of the bible ancient copies are still around though some are "long gone".

shimrod- have you got a past-oscope that demonstrates that the correct assumptions were made to interprete these methods.
and I just love it when a modern formed rock tests at being MYO!
BUT OF COURSE YOU CAN ALWAYS CLAIM CONTAMINATION!

The most recent and spectacular examples would be the assorted soft tissue finds in dino bones. no one believed it could last millennia ,stu, [less you can quote otherwise] till it was admitted that it really was in the bones.
so now you say it demonstrates it can last that long!
it all goes to show IMO that evolutionism cant be falsified - you just move the goal posts!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 07:01 PM

" ... I just love it when a modern formed rock tests at being MYO!"

pete, what, pray (pun intended) is a "modern formed rock". And are you really implying that reputable scientists deliberately falsify results in order to - what? - discredit the Bible?? And do their peers really let them get away with it?

I suspect that many reputable scientists couldn't give a toss about the Bible. And I also suspect that most of those scientists who claim to have religious faith don't believe that biblical accounts of creation represent absolute truth - as you seem to do.

As for soft tissue in fossils, as Stu says, if such tissues have been found, they represent interesting discoveries. A scientist would definitely not conclude: "Soft tissues shouldn't exist in fossils, thus the theory of evolution is wrong and the biblical account of Creation must be true!" Such a conclusion makes no logical sense whatsoever!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 04:04 AM

"The most recent and spectacular examples would be the assorted soft tissue finds in dino bones. no one believed it could last millennia ,stu, [less you can quote otherwise] till it was admitted that it really was in the bones.
so now you say it demonstrates it can last that long!
it all goes to show IMO that evolutionism cant be falsified - you just move the goal posts!"

You have to understand there ARE NO GOAL POSTS, that's not what science is about, we do not deal in absolutes (in my experience, only fools do). This is a learning process for us all, and although no-one believed intact soft tissue could survive such a long period of time, no-one would have ruled it out with evidence one way or another. Now we are finding evidence.

The work is by Mary Schweitzer, and I've seen a couple of her talks (and talks taking an opposing view) regarding the preservation of soft tissues in a T. rex limb bone.

If Schweitzer's findings are borne out then we move on, that's how science works. Also, palaeontology is using a range of cross-disciplinary techniques to study ancient life, including the discovery of the preservation of structural colours in feathers that tell us what dinosaurs looked like in life.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 04:38 AM

White rabbits!! new month but the same self indulgent tripe/shite being spouted by cameron,gnomet, muskrat, osbourne, shaw, millibland, pete from his own little galaxy et all

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 06:55 AM

Eeeee, you are a breath of fresh air, Conc pal. Anyone with no idea of the irony of complaining for the umpteenth time that people are being self indulgent and talking the same tripe has to be OK by me :-) The only difference is, I suppose, that whereas most of of us know we are talking bollocks you seem to think it is serious.

Out of interest, self indulgent is fine. In the words of Ricky Nelson, "You can't please everyone so you've got to please yourself." And no, it doesn't mean what you think... Tripe is good too. As is liver. I have eaten both in the last couple of weeks.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 07:26 AM

Tripe ? why ? it's feckin tasteless Dave.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 08:00 AM

Tasteless? Nah, not much I grant but it does have a flavour. I must say though the uncooked kind benefits from vinegar and black pepper and if heated I do tend to do it in a flavoured white sauce - Usualy involving chiles!

Now, if you were to say I was tasteless I couldn't argue at all :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 09:57 AM

Just out of interest, pete, where does all the stuff you spout come from? Is any of it from reputable scientists - or is it just regurgitated from the collected works of the Rev. Dr. Teaparty Redneck of the Fundamentalist University of Hicksville, Alabama?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 12:30 PM

Tripe? tasteless? hanson you must be a goddamn southerner.Tripe and onions that superb English soul food was, as everyone knows, invented in Yorkshire.

It can also be enjoyed in its bleached state cold with a little vinegar, white pepper and a tad of salt.Also it is known to be deep fried in batter.

When I was working as a master chef in Paris, I invented a tripe dish that contained cream, white wine and fresh lobster.

Michael Boccacini, that other great chef invented a lovely cassoulet using tripe.

It goes without saying that you are tasteless gnomet..anyone putting chiles in tripe has to be.Black pepper.. philistine!

gnomet, small man syndrome wouldn't you say folks?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: saulgoldie
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 12:41 PM

Hasa Diga Ebowai.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 02:38 PM

You are just genius, Conc. A woman and a chef! You MUST join the Holy Trinity. When Messiah M gets back we will put it to the vote. You would be just perfect for making the tea at the bingo sessions.

I must admit to coming from t'other side o't'pennines where we do have multiple condiments to experiment with. But I can't say too much coz I have just emigrated to North Yorkshire where I am on a mission to teach the locals how to serve black peas. (Vinegar, salt and white pepper) and make proper black puddings.

No syndrome here BTW. I just am a small man. Just as you do not have an inferiority complex:-)

Hakuna Matata

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 05:04 PM

yes shimrod- my information does come from fully qualified scientists.
I know you might have been given the impression from the Darwin camp that there are none that accept creation but there are quite a number, and even more Darwin doubters.
IMO stu there are goal posts, but only the creationists say where they are. darwinists claim to be open to following the evidence wherever it leads but it seems to me they do so at about the same rate as the theory they vigorously defend!. deep time dogma is not negotiable.
I had read about the discovery also, of dinos being more coloured than previously illustrated. that has no bearing on their dating does it?
DNA discovered though would. i predict that as and when more is discovered you's will still hang on to your religiously held deep time, just as you are with the finds now being established.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 05:21 PM

What is the seven stars link, Pete??

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 05:57 PM

Pete, there are no goal posts. Science is an incremental process that takes time, as research needs to be done, written up, published, peer-reviewed, re-tested by other scientists and developed upon. The continued use of phrases like 'Darwinists' and the laughable 'deep time dogma'.

If intact DNA was found and proved to be more durable than we thought, why would that challenge the existence of 'deep time'? It might challenge my understanding of the robustness of the DNA molecule, but that's fine as I am open to be challenged.

I don't believe in your god as there is not a single datum I am aware of indicating his/hers/its existence. By all means, point me to peer-reviewed research published in a scientific journal that might challenge this position. My betting is you won't.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 07:13 PM

Ah..gnome, what you are trying to do with your rapier like wit is trying to squeeze an inch in on me, huh?

Hakuma matata is more popular in comic books that in the real world..however probably heard it in Kenya..in your case you may have met someone from there.......or seen the lion king movie?

Whatever way, you cant really argue in English so you have no chance in cod Swahili.. again proving you a bigger fraud than Father Christmas

Would the tea be earl grey or Darjeeling? Again a pretty insulting remark from you.

You see phony, when I left my career in the Tanzanian navy as senior catering officer, holding the rank of vice admiral, I became chief tea buyer for Texas, in the southern province of India, so I do know me teas.

what you doing infesting North Yorkshire with your smug presence?

Lancashire got fed up with you?

I take it you mean carlings when you talk about black peas.. again you get it wrong..please stop trying to be smart. Get back to counting beans, and the thumb up bum syndrome.

Take three times a day.. that could act as your security blanket.


Good night sweet prince.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 03:40 AM

Well, I didn't think I really need to point it out to someone of your calibre but here goes -

From: saulgoldie - PM
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 12:41 PM

Hasa Diga Ebowai.

Saul

You see, the above expression crops up in "The Book of Mormon, The Musical" It's a clever sendup of Hakuna Matata from "The Lion King". So it was not really addressed to you but to Saul, who I am sure would have spotted the significance.

As to tea. Well, we are talking Sheffield here so I reckon PG Tips or Co-op would be best. We don't really want to give them ideas above their station if they are to be our faithful congregation.

We are beginning to have serous doubts as to your aptitude for the job I'm afraid but what you lack in coherence is more than compensated for by creative delusion. Keep it up, it gets funnier by the minute.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 10:25 AM

"yes shimrod- my information does come from fully qualified scientists."

Ah yes, pete, but qualified in what? And have they published in reputable, peer-reviewed, SECULAR journals?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 02:17 PM

So gmomead, you aint heard about carlings?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 03:10 PM

I have indeed heard of carlings, carlins, pigeon peas, parched peas, brown peas and black peas. I have also heard of door stops, barm cakes, babbies yeds, fly pies and so many names for other foods that I have forgotten most of them. Thanks for asking.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 04:41 PM

I doubt shimrod, if there is a scientific disapline that is not represented. and yes they have been published in peer reviewed journals. I hear that occasionally even some papers that have implications on origins have slipped through, but usually anything that supports the creationist model is filtered out.

seem, stu that you are confirming my prediction that you,s will continue to stretch scientific findings so as to defend what cannot be verified by the scientific method.

blandiver- seven stars is just the name of the pub where the crayside singaround used to be held.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket pissing himself laughing
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 09:56 PM

Greetings from a dodgy but almost functional internet connection in Thailand. Mrs Musket is getting ready to go out for the day and I have a few moments of boredom, so Mudcat is usually worth a giggle in such circumstances.

pete. You are right you know. You ARE referring to proper peer reviewed publication, as you note that creationist nonsense is filtered out. If you bother to ask yourself why that is, you might begin to understand the meaning of the word science.

You can be a fully qualified scientist, but if you conclude a solution to a hypothesis without foundation, your qualifications tend to go down in value..... Gaps in knowledge are not an invitation to fill the gaps with Jesus. After all, asserting something to be true without proof or foundation could be seen as lying if the intention is to persuade, and as you said on another thread, Christians don't lie.

Which is a pity, because that means the altar boys and choir boys deserved it, and they should have kept quiet about it after all! All those vulnerable women and young men who went to men of the cloth for protection because they were brought up to trust clergy, it was their fault for inadvertently tempting the holy ones, and to complain means you are branded a liar.

Hey, the mist is raising. I see what liar means now, in the ecclesiastical sense at any rate.

Tea. Do you know... Our hotel here serves Glengetti tea? Ok, with UHT milk and they don't boil the water properly, but it's the thought that counts.

Co Messiah and associated gnome. Of course the rear ending Admiral can serve the teas. Can't be any worse than Betty Swollox and the fiasco co Messiah S. Witnessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 03:14 AM

Yo Messiah M - Hope you are having a good time smiting the heathen in those foreign climes. I have just had another revelation. How do you do it? Anyway, I have just noticed the nautical theme. Sailors, Admirals. Do you think it could be something to do with the seawater or being cooped up for weeks on end?

Just a thought.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 03:44 AM

" ... but usually anything that supports the creationist model is filtered out."

Why do you think such papers are filtered out, pete?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 04:01 AM

Ah....Thailand.. I remember running cats from there in the '60's.

That was the time when I was Captain of a Swiss tramp steamer,with a fondue set contract with the Nepalese government.

But of course you smug armchair liberals and Daily Mail reading soggy crumpet-eaters wouldn't know anything about that .

Intresting life mine..very

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 04:10 AM

"seem, stu that you are confirming my prediction that you,s will continue to stretch scientific findings so as to defend what cannot be verified by the scientific method."

I,s give,s up.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 06:30 AM

@Evolution theory.

Many details of evolution theory are disputed among scientists. However, if we formulate its central theorem weakly like "All animals and plants have common ancestors, and the evolution of species came about in a way compatible with probability theory (i.e. as if only by chance)", the overwhelming majority of biologists and philosophers of science subscribe to it, including all those that are not members of a Scripture religion, but also, and that is the crucial point, including a large number of Christians, who would have an easier life with "creationism" if it had any credibility.

Some theologians make the purely philosophical proviso that while evolution works as if driven by mere chance, it has in fact been planned by God. This statement has its own problematics, but does not interfere with science at all. (Not to be confused with the "Intelligent Design" variant of creationism, according to which God actively interferes with evolution, breaking the laws of probability.)

Note that evolution from one species to another can be observed with our eyes, and creates many new species every year - unless the whole scientific community (including its religious members) lie to us blatantly, consciously, and unanimously.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 06:56 AM

Intresting life mine..very

Absolutely fascinating, Conc. How about giving us a potted history?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 07:18 AM

We already have the potty history.

Been to see the leaning Buddha today. You can't call it the lying Buddha as it religious and apparently religious people never lie.

Or is that just Christians? I get confused.

Any road up. Concererened seems right up our street. The tramp steamer bit seems convincing to me and after all we religious dudes are known for being naive and believing any old bollocks.

Yo!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 01:46 PM

musket seems to be under the misconception that I was claiming Christians never lie.
read my last post again maybe. I said that for them to do so was inconsistent. this is because those doing so , and indeed clerical abusers of kids, are not heeding the God they claimed to serve.
but for the atheist,-can he point to a fixed standard?

IMO ,shimrod the reviewing system for submissions is philosophically dismissive of creationist scientists. the scientists in galileos day were slow catching on as well .
it should be noted that we are not talking of papers full of bible texts, but reasoned only from the scientific perpective.
I also hear that there are numerous submissions, so I would presume papers not agreeing with the reviewers worldview would have even less chance.

so soon, stu. nice talking to you.

griska - a large number of scientists used to subscribe to other things in the past that are now discarded.
seems that you have not read much creationist stuff because speciation is part of the model. the information was contained in the original animals from which the species descended ,mostly from losses in info ,I believe.
as to theologians accepting Darwinism, seems to me they are sawing off the branch they are sitting on.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 02:04 PM

yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 03:15 PM

Pete,

griska - a large number of scientists used to subscribe to other things in the past that are now discarded.

Quite correct (except for the spelling of my name). I mentioned a fact, not claiming it to prove anything.

seems that you have not read much creationist stuff

None at all, but I believe you that they have an explanation for everything.

as to theologians accepting Darwinism, seems to me they are sawing off the branch they are sitting on.

Now here we are at my actual point (though regrettably quite off the thread title). The word "Darwinism" is somewhat burnt, therefore I specified a central theorem that is challenged by creationists (- this much I read). Those theologians, and other religious people who understand the meaning of science, dismiss creationism because they found that it cannot be supported seriously. Some of them regret this sorely, others (the majority, I guess) have long ago made their peace with science, accepting that the realms of religion and science must be strictly separated. They do not find that the Bible really demands otherwise - ask Joe for details.

Actually my hope of convincing anybody here is not too high. I just want to emphasize that there are good reasons for the principles of evolution theory to be taught at all schools, being quite a different thing from religion or ideology.

I also think that children have a justified interest in learning about the faith of their community, including all mythology. When they reach puberty, they will inevitably find out how to interpret that, what is taken seriously and what not quite.

A large part of what passes for religion, particularly in Islam, is actually just cultural custom, or even downright abuse. That "Islamic" school was shut down because girls had to sit on the back benches etc. Non-religious private schools are prone to abuse as well - power is temptation.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 03:37 PM

What are you yawning at, Conc? Here we are, giving you the chance to enlighten us all about your very interesting dreams life and you don't take us up on the opportunity. What are we to make of that?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket getting his tuppence worth
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 08:50 PM

Of course he is bored Oh Brother Gnome. If you or I had to watch a programme on the telly we didn't understand we'd yawn too?

pete. I know you said lying wasn't consistent with Christianity as opposed to Christians don't lie. If we put the hair splitting to one side for a moment. .. We are still confronted by the second bit you said when you went on to generalise with the word atheist. It seemed to me you were willing to get a big brush dripping with whitewash and slap it on to those you refer to as atheists yet seek to be more selective when it comes to Christians?

Then you ask if "atheists" can point to a fixed standard? So a buggering priest should know his crime is wrong but a paedophile who isn't religious has the excuse of no moral compass? Further, you are saying, as written, that you cannot have moral standards without a guide book?

Then. . Then you wonder why I seek to ridicule your piff and waffle? When it comes to insulting I'm not in your league mate. I bow to the master.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 02:53 AM

You can tell people how to behave, but you cant tell people what to think.
They will do it despite themselves.
Some people need "God". Some people need "truth". Some people want to be "kings".....and they use "God or "truth" to fight their battles.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 04:39 AM

Is that anything like the 'truth' about forced medical procedures for homosexuals ake?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 05:10 AM

"IMO ,shimrod the reviewing system for submissions is philosophically dismissive of creationist scientists."

And maybe, pete, the reputable journal editors know that a 'scientist' who thinks he knows everything already and is seeking to work backwards to some revealed, absolute truth is not a scientist, in any generally recognised sense, at all. A true scientist deals with uncertainty all the time - but rarely, if ever, with unassailable truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket lowering himself
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 07:33 AM

Aye Akenaton, and occasionally they use their "liberal" credentials to fight their battles.

Who'd have thought it?

I have no problem whatsoever with what people think. We can't all have perfect upbringings, role models and experiences to fall back on. But if we try to convince others, some things are best left in our heads and not on our keyboards or mouths eh?

Some things may be part of our makeup but best if we keep them quiet and not shout about them. You wouldn't stand in a pub and admit you wank to pictures of Carole Smiley, so why post on the internet that you have issues with the existence of a whole group of our society?

Let alone come up with a solution...


Co messiah and associated gnome. It appears someone has joined the thread who fits the bill to join us in our true religion, on account of blinkered bigotry and endless trying to justify it. An ideal prophet you may think. Could I suggest though that not even we are that desperate?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 07:38 AM

"IMO ,shimrod the reviewing system for submissions is philosophically dismissive of creationist scientists. the scientists in galileos day were slow catching on as well ."

So . . . the peer review system is at fault because papers supporting your faith don't get published in journals?

Here's the rub: if creationists want to take on science they have to use scientific methods, they have to do it in the framework that hundreds of thousands of scientists have arrived at by common consensus over the centuries. If they don't then it isn't science, as none of us engaged in research can simply make up a new way of assessing the merit of the work of others to fit in with our own viewpoints.

Also, many papers are rejected for a whole host of reasons and many of these are by experienced, respectable and honest scientists. The truth is if there are flaws in the method or the data or any other number of reasons the paper may well be rejected; very few papers ever get accepted without some revisions.

So if your 'creationist scientists' are not getting papers published, there must be a flaw in the way they are doing the research.

One more thing, about this quote:

"seem, stu that you are confirming my prediction that you,s will continue to stretch scientific findings so as to defend what cannot be verified by the scientific method."

I take exception to being called a liar or having my integrity questioned by someone who neither knows me or constantly refuses to engage in reasoned debate, or back it up with any meaningful data (where are these supposed papers for example?). You might think all scientists are liars, but you are very, very wrong and you would do well to show some of that fabled christian understanding to people who don't share your opinion; you might think I am a fat twat in league with the devil himself and you might think I am deluded and wrong, but I do not lie or attempt to deceive, as my work is about the fundamental nature of the universe we live in.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 09:58 AM

Ian.... you've made a fool of yourself on the other thread, don't do the same on this one, or I may have to sort you out ....again. :0)

With facts of course, not abuse!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 06:31 PM

I did not call you a liar, stu.
believing that you reinterpret science to fit in with your presuppositions would be correct.
if that is calling you a liar , it is only what you say about creationists when they present their evidences. whats good for the goose.......
so how can the scientific model- ie repeatable etc- be used to claim you are right about the past?.

musket- of course the atheist can have morality without a law book , but what is his ultimate authority , and what is to stop that morality being variable?
and please do not imply [if you are] that I am excusing abusers whether they be clerics or atheists.

shimrod which scientists think they know everything?
no- what we have is scientists that have presupositions that influence their research. it might be creation, ID ,or evolutionary.
the latter camp, I suspect hold the most power.

apologies grishka, for wrong spelling.
but what about those theologians who have examined evolutionism and found it cannot be taken seriously, not to mention scientists!

the argument from authority cuts either way.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 07:58 PM

pete. I am not. You have made your disdain of abusers of people using their religious authority plain, and the thrust of your argument is genuine. Not one I agree with but genuine. To get there however, you distort scientific discovery and that isn't genuine. That's the beef.



Anyway. I am going to sit back and enjoy the thread. Apparently someone is going to fill it with facts. Can't wait. Been waiting a bloody long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 03:12 AM

"shimrod which scientists think they know everything?"

Why creation "scientists" (it pains me to write that - even with the inverted commas!) of course. They claim to know everything because it's all written down in an old book!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 03:57 AM

Science cannot explain mental telepathy, but I know (believe)that it exists.

Is my belief any different to a belief in "god"?

I know many people who have experienced their "god"

Why does it concern atheists so much?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 04:28 AM

Why does it concern atheists so much?

Because such experience a) uncommon, b) utterly subjective & c) ultimately perverse in that it leads the 'believer' to a mystical sense of 'righteousness' entirely incompatible with the entirely wonderful post-religious reality of human life in the early 21st Century which is a) common to all, b) entirely objective, and c) the natural result of 50,000 of human struggle, striving, wonder, learning, enquiry, discovery and enlightenment.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 04:29 AM

"believing that you reinterpret science to fit in with your presuppositions would be correct."

. . . Except I don't, or rather I try to the abustle best of my ability not to otherwise it makes what I'm doing worthless. Question everything. If I do interpret my data to fit my own presuppositions then the peer review process will pick that up when I publish and I will have to go back and start again or whatever.

My point about creationists arguing against science is they must use scientific method to support their hypothesis (the world was made in seven days by god) if they want to be taken seriously by scientists, otherwise they are simply shouting gobbledygook.

I don't have a problem with religion and science (Buddhists positively embrace it) and many scientists are people of faith who happen to understand how science works and it makes not one jot of difference what they believe if they are doing good science, and bad science is the sole domain of anyone, but a universal scourge.

It's the constant distortion that bothers me, the creationist desire to rubbish honest endeavour and attempts to change a system that humankind have developed to deal with the questions raised by scientific philosophy over millennia. This refusal to address the issues by actually making the effort to understand modern science looks lazy and rather petulant, a sort of cultivated ignorance that is quite depressing to witness.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 05:06 AM

""musket- of course the atheist can have morality without a law book , but what is his ultimate authority , and what is to stop that morality being variable?""

I do hate to see anyone entering into serious debate without even the most basic equipment.

All morality is variable Pete. It always has been and it always will be.

Morality is definable as what a society finds acceptable in the circumstances pertaining at any given time.

We used to consider it morally acceptable to marry girls as young as twelve years old, in ceremonies presided over by Christian priests. Now we don't!

We used to consider it morally acceptable to hang criminals for a whole variety of crimes, with a priest in attendance. Now we don't!

In other countries both practises are still considered moraly acceptable.

And the clincher......We used to consider it morally acceptable (in fact, a moral imperative) to send armies out to other countries for the express purpose of murdering non Christians.

NOW WE DON'T!

The most important point about this is that all these activities were considered morally acceptable, not just by God fosaken Atheists, but by Christians also, many of whom were excessively enthusiastic about the third example.

So don't keep trying, in your customary disingenuous fashion, to claim a moral high ground for the religious, which simply does not exist.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 05:10 AM

Ake, if you would take the trouble to read what we have been saying you would see that a belief in god or anything is not the issue. In fact, the joint Messiahs and I have founded our whole new religion on the fact that Messiah S once saw some ball lightning! The problem is with religions that insist that everyone else has to believe in their imaginary friend or face the, often fatal, consequences. Most, if not all, religions are based on the certainty that god or gods exist. Atheists have the knowledge that nothing is certain and therefore cannot possibly form a religion. The whole premise of the thread is nonsensical and should be treated accordingly. But I suspect your issues with Musket and me would prevent you from reading any further than the headlines.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 05:18 AM

""Why does it concern atheists so much?""

Simple Ake! It doesn't, until some religious evangelist starts multiple threads to attack them.

Not one of the non believers would have bothered to start anything, had JtS not got a bug up his arse about "militant Atheism", an oxymoron.

If you attack anyone and he fights back, that does not make him a militant, the term applies much more aptly to you!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 06:24 AM

had JtS not got a bug up his arse about "militant Atheism", an oxymoron.

No - it's actually a tautology.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 06:51 AM

"musket- of course the atheist can have morality without a law book , but what is his ultimate authority , and what is to stop that morality being variable?"

The point pete raises is an interesting one, as it can be difficult to for some to understand from where secular morality derives it's origin, integrity and foundation from if not handed down from a supreme being? In the modern world it might appear that secular society has abandoned wholesale any sense of moral direction as we slowly cower under the ever-increasing weight of the free market and it's anything goes approach to consumerism and disregard for any sort of common decency.

However, look closer and it becomes clear that there is a strong moral thread running through secular society, albeit one largely ignored by politicians, religious heads (often of the more fanatical ilk) and business leaders. It is present in the secular arts from painting to literature, in the way we look after our ill and vulnerable (the huge number of nameless, voiceless volunteers that give their time for others) and the concerns of the countless people debating on the internet every day.

Where did this moral code spring from? Many societies the world over have independently created moral codes that are very similar despite being separated by temporal and geographic location. This might indicate that as human beings we are predisposed towards certain traits, and these manifest themselves as laws such as "don't kill" or "don't steal". These universal laws are an expression of an innate morality that we all possess; religious texts of all creed are simply another manifestation of this instinct, and no religion can rightly claim to have been the wellspring for this wisdom.

There is no need to credit a supernatural being with creating a moral code which binds us as a species, as our ancestors originated it and we perpetuate it. The idea that anyone is less moral or has less moral authority because they are atheist is fundamentally wrong and rather patronising to say the least, as it suggests we are incapable, without help from a mythical third party, to create a basic and universal code of morality; however, we've done just that.

See, human beings are actually quite clever when they put their minds to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 07:46 AM

I don't have any "issues" with you or Ian, Dave.
I understand you both, perfectly.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 12:18 PM

I very much doubt that Ake. Anyone who can try to convince me that forcing medical procedures on people simply due to their sexual inclinations understands very little about me. Or about human rights.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 12:53 PM

stu- I of course reject your inference that believing in a creator is a rejection of science.
in fact believing the grand theory of evolution [kerkuts definition /? first matter, first life arising out of that matter and on through the evolutionary path] disregards what we do know , not just what we don't!
I ask you again, how can you apply the scientific method to the past?
" question everything" I doubt you do. it seems you would rather question observable repeatable, tested science than deep time dogma.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 02:15 PM

Pete, this thread is not the place to discuss creationism, but I will not dodge replying to your message:

but what about those theologians who have examined evolutionism and found it cannot be taken seriously, not to mention scientists! the argument from authority cuts either way.

Not at all, you misunderstood me. The theologians I wrote about, accept the principles of evolution theory although they would be better off with creationism, if they considered it to have any slight chance of being taken seriously. Of course I do not take their word for it (I do not need to, since I have some more direct knowledge of evolution theory and its philosophical foundations), but it should convince, for example, those people who seriously ask themselves whether creationism must be taught in schools to ensure equal chances.

My second argument (not a "proof" either) was that if creationism had any point, there would be some non-believing scientists backing it, if only for the chance of becoming famous - I do not know of any. (Note that most other "alternative sciences" find opportunists to discuss them just to sell some books.)

The good news for most religious people is that religion need not bother about science at all. There are other things to worry about.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket sans Ian
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 09:31 PM

Actually Brother Gnome, there is a very good chance he does understand us perfectly.   There are many books by and about normal rational decent people and there is a chance he may have read one or two.

Or at least looked at the pictures.

Ok. Back to the pilgrimage. Flew down yesterday to Ko Samui for a few days. Not as many Buddhist temples for Mrs Musket to drag me round but plenty of other places that call to the initiated. They truly are a religious experience. The local term for them is beach bar. Very late at night they show big screen services to their deity, and they chant his name. Rrooooooonnnneeeeeyyyyyy!!!!!!

Although Mrs musket and I have found a quieter place of worship by this time. I would stay for the service but a few beers, lobster and an acceptable Pinot, I have another calling. Must have been the lobster. Feeling a bit better this morning though.

Suffering for my faith and spent the kids inheritance getting here. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 04:10 AM

"The good news for most religious people is that religion need not bother about science at all. There are other things to worry about."

Excellent Grishka!

Science has provided us with just as many horrors as it has benefits?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 05:00 AM

One particular horror has been the ease with which communication technology allows dangerous ideas to be pushed by evil people.

At one time the only way to spread fascism was to address a rally, Nuermburg being one such place.

Now with the miracles of technology you can spout off ideas to treat whole groups of society as second class citizens and think you are clever. At one time people had to turn up to hear filth. Now unsuspecting decent people have to put up with it.

Back in your hole worm.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 05:48 AM

Please do not misinterpret me as if I had said that ethics should not bother with technology. The opposite is true.

I am well aware that most (!) posters to this thread try rhetoric tricks of the cheapest sort. If I were to counteract all of them, my day would be spent.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 05:56 AM

""Science has provided us with just as many horrors as it has benefits?""

Science has provided no horrors per se.

Misuse/Abuse of science certainly has!

Why not direct the blame where it really belongs,...at the Abusers?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 06:25 AM

"I ask you again, how can you apply the scientific method to the past?"

Are you asking me here the methods palaeontology, geology, biology, physics, chemistry, astronomy, mathematics etc etc address questions about past life, the earth and it's origin, the universe and it's origins? Or is there something else here I'm missing. I've already pointed you to a graphic showing broadly how science works, that should explain everything.


"in fact believing the grand theory of evolution [kerkuts definition /? first matter, first life arising out of that matter and on through the evolutionary path] disregards what we do know , not just what we don't!"

I'm sorry pete, but you're going to have to qualify that statement in order to continue this conversation. How does evolutionary theory disregard what we know? Where is this data? I wanna see what evidence you have to support this statement, otherwise this is pointless.

""question everything" I doubt you do. it seems you would rather question observable repeatable, tested science than deep time dogma."

I realise you have a low opinion of me as an advocate of science, but displaying this petulant attitude does your argument no favours. Your statement above is meaningless and apart from having a dig, I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but I'll have a go at addressing how we view deep time.

Every palaeontologist and geologist questions the current hypothesis about the age of the earth and the way rocks form every time we go into the field or analyse our data; it is one of the most fundamental requirements of being an earth scientist. Every time we extract a fossil we question how it arrived there, how it came to be fossilised and what sort of environment the animal lived and died in. Responsible collectors are rigorous about recording this information, as without context all you have is a pile of bones. Of course, it needs lots of data from more than just palaeontologists to ensure we are dating the rocks correctly, and this is where the chemists and physicists come in. Furthermore, you need lots of data to be sure you are getting as close as possible when assigning age to a rock or fossil, but luckily since the enlightenment scientists of many disciplines have been collecting data and we now have lots to compare and test against.

So we question and test the whole concept of deep time and geological context all the time, every time. It is a fascinating area to work in and the details are in flux all the time as we find new evidence that shifts the ages of formations and beds. These details will take many lifetimes to work out, and I don't know if we will ever resolve them fully as it's a mighty complex planet we live on, but we've go the big picture pretty much nailed and there's not any evidence that contradicts that in any meaningful way (feel free to prove me wrong here, show me some evidence), although never say never.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 07:42 AM

Stu. You appear to have the patience of a Saint. Our new religion needs a few saints. If you can call bingo we may even be able to speed up the canonisation.

I must be mellowing myself. Someone on another thread just trotted out that lack of belief is a belief in itself. I didn't bite. Probably the relaxation you get from toilets that are more comfortable than the ones back home.

Just to wade in on the science debate. You may need to clarify somewhat. I believe it was Ernest Rutherford who was attributed as saying that science consists of physics. The rest is just stamp collecting. Turns out it was said by others.

I'll get me bog roll.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 11:18 AM

" ... it seems you would rather question observable repeatable, tested science than deep time dogma."

Ah, pete, do you mean "observable" "repeatable", "tested" "science" as "observed" "repeated" and "tested" by creation "scientists", and published exclusively in non-secular, creationist "scientific journals", by any chance?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 11:27 AM

"Stu. You appear to have the patience of a Saint. Our new religion needs a few saints. If you can call bingo we may even be able to speed up the canonisation. "

I don't want to be a saint. I just love dinosaurs.

In his way, Pete is a great teacher. I really, truly, mean that.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 06:41 PM

some one seems to be missing something somewhere stu, maybe you ,maybe me ,maybe both of us.
what I am saying is,- whatever discipline you choose you can only do observable, repeatable , testable, on the present.
science applied to the past cannot apply that method, because it IS past!
what is being done is interpretation of the data.
creationists use the same data and obviously interpret accordingly.
evolutionists do the same, as lewontin admitted " lest we allow a divine foot in the door"
what we do know from science [till such time as might in theory be shown otherwise] is abiogenesis is impossible, soft tissue should be gone long before MYO, and probability calculations of even a starter on life beginning are astronomical.
what you appear to do is say that you know dinos lived MYO ,so therefore soft tissue can last that long.
it seems to me more logical to say that there is no evidence that soft tissue could endure millions of years so the long age paradigm is wrong.
obviously when creationists say this , shimrod, they can point to testable, repeatable science - we know soft tissues decay, and I should think the rate of decay in even the most favourable scenarios point to a much shorter timeframe.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 09:41 PM

pete... creationists do indeed interpret differently. They use it to support a hypothesis. Science tests and discards where necessary any hypothesis whilst creationism seeks to use whatever straws they can clutch in order to make ancient stories of mythical origin somehow appear physically possible.

Which is a shame because even when they were written, they were mainly there as stories to learn from, not history to learn.

I reckon if it weren't for creationist and other fundamental nonsense, religion may have more relevance to educated rational people. I also reckon the previous Archbishop of Canterbury knew it. .......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 02:49 AM

Yes, Musket is right - to start by regarding your initial hypothesis as absolute truth, and dismissing any data which doesn't fit that hypothesis, is not the way that real science is done.

You keep banging on about not being able to do scientific experiments on the past (which of the works of the Rev. Dr. Teaparty Fundamentalist did you find that in?) but as Stu says, real scientists have brought to bear the formidable "methods [of] palaeontology, geology, biology, physics, chemistry, astronomy, mathematics etc etc" on questions about the past and their conclusions sound pretty convincing to me.

On the other hand, you and your creationist chums, can't prove that the biblical account of Creation is true - although you claim to have faith that it's true - but questions of faith have nothing to do with science. In addition you can't prove that God, the ultimate creator exists either; the vague, waffly statements about ineffability, that you have used in the past sound, however you try to phrase them, like dodging the question.

Finally, for the umpteenth time, if all of modern science is wrong (which I very, very seriously doubt) that still doesn't mean that the biblical account of Creation is the sole remaining explanation for life on Earth!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 03:45 AM

Musket, Canterbury is head of the Anglican Church.
We have no truck with creationism.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 04:02 AM

"evolutionists do the same, as lewontin admitted " lest we allow a divine foot in the door"

. . . and there it is. Except it isn't, as this quote (which appears widely on creationist websites but comes from an introduction to a Carl Saga book) is a misquote, and should be:

"...materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. "

What Lewontin is discussing here is the material nature of science, it's occasional counterintuitive results and not to allow supernatural explanations (which are artificial constructs the evidence os made to fit, as Shimrod said earlier).

"what you appear to do is say that you know dinos lived MYO ,so therefore soft tissue can last that long."

Strawman argument Pete. In the philosophical sense I do not KNOW dinosaurs lived millions of years ago, but from the scientific point of view the evidence we have accumulated very, very, very (keep adding 'verys' here for a minute or so) strongly indicates that they did and there is no convincing, evidence-based argument to the contrary. So I work from the hypothesis that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago, and the evidence is so strong go we do 'know' in this case. In the case of soft tissues, which you keep harping on about refer to my earlier post which discussed it at length. The evidence is published and available, I suggest you read the scientific arguments supporting and against the author's conclusion.


"it seems to me more logical to say that there is no evidence that soft tissue could endure millions of years so the long age paradigm is wrong."

But there is evidence. See reply above. Read the paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,The artist formally known as concerened
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 11:33 AM

Even bigger yawwwwwwwwns!!
You are dead right about being bored..not because I do not understand this crap you are trying to smugly baffle each other with..and the psuedo inttectual posturing you all insist on maintaining.
No phonys..it is with your genuine mind numbing regurgutation of the same old tired , theories..that is sending me to the land of nob..

How shaw..wizzjet, stringfettler, muskrat, seaman staynes and the rest of the soot juggling outsiders can claim to any tither of intellctual prowess is quite frankly beyond me..

I verilly believe that the crayons and dribbling thumb up bum syndrone is beyond even your limited capabillities..
I think we need to expose you all to a course of justin beiber cds in a concerted effort to make you all buck up..but there again..mebe not..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 11:46 AM

You know, I used to introduce a mate on stage as the artist formally known as a crock of shit. Lost contact with him. Mind you, he is eloquent and can spell so I won't get excited.

Keith. I have yet to hear a vicar say God didn't create the heavens and earth. Christians speak of truth when referring to their big book of tales.

If you are embarrassed by that, take it up with the men in pointy hats. I can't help you I'm afraid.

pete. Have you heard of the whole of the Anglican movement not believing in the creation? Keith does claim to check his facts after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 12:08 PM

sending me to the land of nob..

Best Freudian slip I have seen for years. Well done, conc, I didn't that anyone of even your amazing intelligence would admit to being a resident of that fabled domain. I am pretty sure you denied being a (K)nobhead some time back. What has brought on this change of heart.

And if it is so boring, why do you keep coming back for more?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 12:15 PM

Haven't noticed you adding anything meaningful to the debate'concerened' - except, perhaps, a lot of insults and poor spelling.

Mind you, I can sympathise - I used to be dyslexic ... but now I'm not so shore ...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 12:22 PM

Just noticed my lysdexia too - Missed out 'think' from 'didn't think that anyone...' That was a bit thoughtless :-)

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 01:54 PM

Few of us are as clever as we think we are.

But, I have to agree with GUEST about the pseudo-intellectual posturing, and the smug in-jokes.
I haven't been involved here....looks like a bad amateur attempt at Monty Python.....are you aware of how very silly you all look?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 02:07 PM

musket-the former archbishop was indeed on your side as far as origins were concerned. and maybe other things as well. when I saw him and dawkins in a so called debate on tv ,it was more like an agreefest!
seems fitting for one residing over a declining c of e.

of course all of modern science is not wrong, shimrod. but interpretations about the past can not all be correct. and where scientists interpret diverse conclusions from the same evidence , that is pretty obvious . not only does the researcher not come to the evidence with a totally open mind, but diverse conclusions are possible.
neither do you have any grounds for asserting that creationists ignore counter evidence. on the contrary it is evolutionism that evades the evidence ,as is evident when you don't address what we do know about things like bi-oogenesis and probability. appeals to authority does not answer it.
still asking for proof? I never said I can prove God or 6 day creation, and neither can you prove evolutionism ,but in light of what we do know from science, a creator is more consistent with the evidence IMO. Until such time as you grant that it is perhaps pointless trying to convince you who that creator is.
stu- you are quite right that I only gave part of the quote ,but you only gave part also. I believe the complete quote is rather confirming my point.
I suggest you read the evidence that counters yours.i regard it as self evident that soft tissue perishes long before millions of years. if you can cite otherwise lets have it, preferably in laymans terms.
and I don't recall you offering any evidence that soft tissue can last 70 million yr other that [begging the question] dinos are that old.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 03:12 PM

Well, what a shock! Ake and Conc are blood brothers! Tell you what, Ake. I doubt very much if he will have you. Out of interest though, if they are 'in jokes' how do you know what they are about and how have you measured their smugness?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,The artist formally known as concerened
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 03:28 PM

Akenton..I do not know you but I applaud your comments.I thought I was plowing a lone furrow with the self deluded great and the good.
Point is old chap they genuinly cant see how stupid they do look.
Maybe I am a little lacking in the spelling and grammer skills but I recognise that and do not need these big swinging dicks to point it out to me.I have been accused of insulting them.
.what in I ask?nothing I have said about these puffed up self important self elected post policemen and grammer inspectors are untruthfull..thank goodness some one else has pointed this out.
Untill the likes of shaw, wizzjet and the other psueds and soot juggling cake eaters get on board for the big humillity and compassion game, I will continue to chastise them..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 05:15 PM

You have been ploughing a lone furrow for a long time, conc pal. It's pretty obvious. Nothing you have ever said has insulted anyone I suspect, because you have never said anything of any consequence. You call that chastising? Our cat could do better. Come on, surely you have more that soot juggling, cake eating and other obscure references in that mighty brain.

You can master managing a top French restaurant, rise to the ranks of Vice-Admiral and yet cannot grasp the simple concepts of your own language. No wonder your furrow remains lonely. Keep 'em coming. I have not laughed at with someone so much for so long for ages.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 05:23 PM

" ... but interpretations about the past can not all be correct. and where scientists interpret diverse conclusions from the same evidence , that is pretty obvious ..."

True! That's how science works. Nevertheless, as I've written before (many, many, many times) if all interpretations are wrong (which I doubt - by the way) then that DOES NOT imply that the biblical story of creation is true!

"I never said I can prove God or 6 day creation,..."

No, you didn't - I agree! But you have said, in the past, that the true nature of God is unknowable.

And changing the subject (as it were):

"Untill the likes of shaw, wizzjet and the other psueds and soot juggling cake eaters get on board for the big humillity and compassion game, I will continue to chastise them."

Oooohhh! Beat me beat me!! ... Or should that be, beet me, beet me!?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 05:25 PM

Guest....Intelligence has nothing to do with spelling or grammar.

I have only a basic education, left school at fifteen to be a builder, but I see and understand, and am ruled by no ideology.

You appear to have things pretty well worked out concerning some of those who contribute to these threads.
Don't let them stop you putting in your "tuppence worth", they try to use their "education" to bully and insult.
Not a sure sign of intelligence in my eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 05:37 PM

Good grief. This gets better and better. The unimaginable encouraging the unintelligible. Cary on guys, you are doing a grand job :-)

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 05:47 PM

Eeeeeee. Sorry about the spulling mostike. The tears were streaming down and I couldn't type properly for the uncontrollable shaking...

What strange bedfellows. If it wasn't so bleedin' obvious it would make an excellent farce at any theatre. I am just wondering what will happen next. Are you sure you really are a woman, conc? Ake will never love you if you are a bloke you know.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 07:33 PM

""repeatable science - we know soft tissues decay, and I should think the rate of decay in even the most favourable scenarios point to a much shorter timeframe.""

So Pete, explain why those bodies recovered from peat bogs which predate the stone age and still have skin, flesh, hair and some internal organs perfectly preserved should or would have suddenly lost their preserved condition, had we not discovered them for another thousand, or million, or ten million years?

The problem with your "Creation Scientists" (so called) , is that they start with the answer ""God did it"", and make the facts supply the proper ""proof"".

The scientist starts with the question ""What did it"", and honestly seeks a truthful answer, and whatever that answer may be, he accepts it, because he hasn't a preferred outcome in mind. Further to that, as more evidence emerges he changes his conclusions to accommodate it.

When did a Creationist treat any new evidence in that way?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 08:29 PM

Well. I know I am looking silly. What's everybody else's excuse?

I suppose my fellow co Messiah and associated gnome also share my excuse, that of trying to be silly in order to note the absurdity of religious paranoia when it comes to people not wanting to belong.

In the meantime, we attract a few moths to our light. Inadvertent but everyone tries to make an angle. Even former rear end admirals and those who have a complex about rear ending each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 03:09 AM

"Guest....Intelligence has nothing to do with spelling or grammar."

Perhaps not. But poor spelling and grammar do nothing to help the writer's case if he/she is trying to suggest that he/she is more intelligent than others.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 03:59 AM

Yeah. But too much information my little Scottish reactionary idiot.

We know you didn't have much education. Far better that your odious outlook is based on ignorance than considered opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 04:19 AM

"I suggest you read the evidence that counters yours.i regard it as self evident that soft tissue perishes long before millions of years. if you can cite otherwise lets have it, preferably in laymans terms.
and I don't recall you offering any evidence that soft tissue can last 70 million yr other that [begging the question] dinos are that old."

My mistake, and I apologise. Looking back I haven't mentioned Schweitzer, so here's a good layman's explanation on the Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Higby_Schweitzer

The links at the bottom have the main papers discussing the issue.

"I suggest you read the evidence that counters yours"

I've read the scientific evidence, and seen both sides discussed at conferences, if you mean creationist evidence, I'll leave you to supply that as I'm no expert.

"Few of us are as clever as we think we are.

First thing you learn as a scientist is you're full of shit. Goes for everyone else too.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 04:54 AM

Now then. .. by weird coincidence one of the bloody temples Mrs Musket has dragged me round today has a dead monk in a glass case. He died in 1967 and hasn't started decomposing yet.

Ok. Somewhere between a miracle and a hoax with all points in between but just goes to show. You can even combat pete's soft tissue assertion using religion.

As opposed to fact, granted. But nobody accused me of being serious. (Slightly impressive. They put sunglasses on him and Mrs Musket said he would look too harrowing with his eye sockets. He didn't look terribly healthy as it was.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 03:56 PM

thanks stu,- I read the wiki article but not the links. I figured that if any of them offered any evidence of soft tissue remaining after 68 million yr that it would be cited in main article.
I noted one scientist reflecting that they would have to re-evaluate what they know from experimental lab work in light of these discoveries [ not exact wording but the gist of it ,I think].
experimental science trumped by deep time belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 05:05 PM

The link at the bottom mentioned by Stu does not discuss scientific theory, but tells the story of Schweitzer's discoveries and her conflict with creationists. It makes good reading for everybody.

Mudcat is not a place where scientific contents can reasonably be taught or discussed. The Internet offers ample reading for those who are genuinely interested. Really understanding things is hard work, in terms of quantity of reading and intensity of thinking.—

To move somewhat back to the thread topic, it must once more be emphasized that the number of creationists is only a small fraction of the number of believers, even of those believers who have any opinion about science at all.

All this I write only for casual readers. The kernel posters to this thread have their agendas and are happy to fling them at each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 08:14 PM

Semantics as ever. Differentiating between believers and those who believe is stretching debate somewhat?

Already on another thread we have one guy who is so ashamed to be lumped with creationism by association he reckons Church of England believers don't believe.

All rather confusing when rational people try to understand how hypocrisy works.

For all my pointing and laughing, pete is in danger of being the only honest Christian posting here. He may try to twist science to his cause but his motives are transparent and for all to see.   Granted, that makes them worthy of dismissal but you can't fault his refusal to pick and choose.

What's worse. A heathen bugger like me or a Christian who picks and chooses in order to not look silly?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 05:07 AM

All rather confusing when rational people try to understand how hypocrisy works.

Indeed, Musket, your confusion about how life works is quite outstanding. Even when we subtract your willful polemics and trolling, the result is that you know just about nothing about human mind, religion, meaningful traditions, history, philosophy, etc. You take pride in not caring, so you should not be surprised to stay confused. You write that in your professional life, you have to deal with real human beings, so you should not be surprised to stay frustrated either. You claim a moral compass and a friendly attitude in principle, which I would not want to dispute, but you should not be surprised that the image you convey is the very opposite.

The Internet offers us the chance to learn about other people from a safe distance, for a start, but it will not work for those who do not really wish to learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 08:24 AM

Already on another thread we have one guy who is so ashamed to be lumped with creationism by association he reckons Church of England believers don't believe.

We do believe and we are believers.
That does not require a belief in the literal truth of Adam and Eve, Jonah and the whale, or them dry bones walking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 09:24 AM

"experimental science trumped by deep time belief."

*rolls eyes*

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 10:57 AM

Yeah. Thick as pigshit that's me.

I don't have any issue with grown people by choice deciding they believe, have belief but don't really believe it happened.

Just keep the mind fuck away from children and vulnerable adults that's all.

If I'm a troll for pointing it out, then Christians must be kiddie fiddlers by definition. You can't have it all ways.

Except it seems you can. Amazing the perspective delusion gives you. It allows you to cherry pick comment and dismiss detractors as trolling idiots.

So.    What do believers actually believe then? Before answering ensure that you speak for everybody who reads your big book of tales.

I know what pete believes. Whatever it takes. I may smile, I may feel teaching creationism wrong but his honesty and refreshing use of the word belief is one you can understand and almost, not quite but almost respect.

I don't want to learn. I don't want to understand. I know how to cherry pick. I know how to justify pompous sanctimonious positions. I know how to promise jam tomorrow in return for fucking people up.

I don't need an imaginary friend to do it. I don't need to read pathetic threads pointing out one cult is persecuted more than another in order to get sympathy. I don't need to see the difference between religious equality and religious privilege.

I just know that we don't need it for society to work so I get fed up of it being forced down the throat of legislation.

Disestablishmentarianism. There's a word. Longoverbleedingdue is another.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 11:05 AM

There is no one more deluded than you Ian.

You believe that "equality is the reality"
Even Dave doesn't believe THAT.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 01:44 PM

I am pretty sure that Messiah M can speak for himself but telling someone what they do and don't believe when you have only ever met them on a web forum is pretty akin to religious faith. I don't know if he believes that 'equality is the reality' because I don't have a bleedin' clue what that is supposed to mean.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 04:34 PM

well thanks , musket , for the [qualified] compliment. I will leave other believers to explain their reasons for not believing that Jonah was swallowed by a large sea creature which God [the text tells us] had prepared for that purpose ,and which account was evidently believed by Christ - if they believe the gospels that is!.
do such believers believe that the Lord bodily rose from the dead, as those same gospels tell us. or like one [in]famous Anglican said "..a trick with bones"
and btw musket, pointing and laughing is no problem aimed at me , but it hardly constitutes creationist interpretation as being a twisting of science.
grishka- I hear what you are saying about science content, but my point is that even with basic concepts that a layman as myself, not extensively educated, can grasp the particles to people story is full of holes, not to say illogical.
the stock answer that more study and hard work will resolve this sounds like an admission that it cannot be demonstrated to be established fact. I have before quoted evolutionists admitting as much.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 06:40 PM

" ... the particles to people story is full of holes, not to say illogical."

No more illogical than believing that some superbeing made everything ... out of what? And where did He come from and what is He made of?

Also, pete, I think that you ought to think more deeply about the differences between "unbelievable", "improbable" and "impossible".

You find "particles to people" unbelievable - others don't; you assign it a low probability - others assign it a higher probability. I, and others involved in this discussion, assign a low probability to the existence of God - you, on the other hand, assign to His existence a probability of 1.0 or 100% - even though you have no proof of His existence (now THAT'S illogical!).

" ... this sounds like an admission that it cannot be demonstrated to be established fact. I have before quoted evolutionists admitting as much."

No, evolutionary scientists, like all true scientists, assign probabilities to their conclusions - and rarely, if ever, do they assign a probability of 100%. This is NOT an admission that they have reached the wrong conclusion. And, for the umpty-millionth time, YOU CANNOT INSERT THE BIBLICAL CREATION STORY INTO THE GAPS!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 08:55 PM

Equality is aspirational. A bit like intelligence and empathy are for semi evolved morons.

pete. I can't express my disdain on an intellectual level for creationism any better than the pointing and laughing phrase.   In short, it fails at every level. But and this is a big but. Many of our sanctimonious fashion Christians who feel embarrassed by the metaphysical aspects of the Bible still have no issue whatsoever using the content as a tool to sneer at others.

That galls me. Either the established church leaders sit with the armchair Christians and talk of stories to aid moral compass or they state, as they do, that their members are believers.

The word believer isn't, to my knowledge, a word in the Lewis Carroll sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 02:52 AM

Christians do not sneer.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 05:30 AM

Nice to see some proper discussion of wht science is and how it works.

For instance -

Stu
what is important is understanding what science is and how it works, and you don't need to be a scientist to know that. You do have to get off your arse do some work though to familiarise yourself with the philosophies and methodologies that make 'science' what it is, and explains how it's come to be practiced as it is and how it changes with time.

Shimrod
evolutionary scientists, like all true scientists, assign probabilities to their conclusions - and rarely, if ever, do they assign a probability of 100%.

Could someone explain this to Steve "Evolution is true! Evolution is true! Evolution is true!" Shaw?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 05:40 AM

Sorry, GUEST Date: 09 Oct 13 - 09:24 AM was me, looks like my cookie had done one for some reason.

"the stock answer that more study and hard work will resolve this sounds like an admission that it cannot be demonstrated to be established fact. I have before quoted evolutionists admitting as much."

OH. MY. GIDDY. AUNT.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 06:04 AM

""OH. MY. GIDDY. AUNT.""

It's not your aunt Stu!

She would have more sense.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 09:57 AM

Musket evolving slowly - PM
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 08:55 PM

Equality is aspirational. A bit like intelligence and empathy are for semi evolved morons.


Very slowly indeed Musket.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 02:47 PM

It is interesting how many of these discussions come down to three self-appointed spokesmen for science being such miserably poor representatives of scientific thought.

Its like they are secretly acting for the Creationists.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 03:20 PM

methinks shimrod, that you are downplaying the comments of evolutionists that own up to the BIG holes in the theory.
of course creationists can,t insert their explanation, but its ok to talk about evolutionary unobservable ideas like multiverse etc!
good for the goose........

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,The artist formally known as concerened
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 03:24 PM

Tee! hee ! you bunch of self rightouse prigs..you are so full of yourselves you dont get how absurd you all sound..keep it up phonies....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 03:58 PM

I am gutted that you are in the slightest way implying that I amy be a phoney.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 04:20 PM

Not your usual sparkling riposte, Conc, my old chum. Loosing momentum? Running out of stupid insults? Well, just spend a day or two in that nice padded room and I'm sure you will feel much better.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 04:36 PM

Gosh, Conc, now that you say it, I plainly see what fools we are. Thanks for informing us.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 05:10 PM

pete, I'm not too sure where the "multiverse" comes into this(?) But you did link it to the word "idea" - so it does not represent absolute truth, does it? It's an IDEA - which, I believe, may have some explanatory power. Oh! But I forgot! We can't advance such an idea because it's not in the Bible, is it? Silly old atheist me!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 11:46 PM

Christians don't sneer. Thanks for that Keith. I wish I had courage of my conviction enough to make such huge statements knowing them to be utter bollocks.

Obviously most people aren't Christians then and wear it as a fashion statement. I always suspected as much.

Anyway, talking of sneering Christians. Hi Jerk! Who are three talking on behalf of science? Not sure the Church of science sent a representative.

Actually, Keith can say that Christians do this and don't do that because he sees Christianity as being whatever you want it to be. The embarrassing bits of the Bible to be ignored and the rest to twist to a more secular agenda. Welcome to The Church of England! How's the women Bishops idea getting on? Any news on the interpretation of gay versus practicing gay yet?

I'll take a photo of the old biddies putting the flowers out on a Sunday morning when I get back to Blighty. Like chimney sweeps and rickets, some traditions are withering on the vine of relevance. Can't even bugger a choirboy these days without the village Bobby getting arsey about it. Tutch..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 03:27 AM

"Tee! hee ! you bunch of self rightouse prigs..you are so full of yourselves you dont get how absurd you all sound..keep it up phonies.... "

Surely, "concerened", a truly "self rightouse prig" (I'll assume that means what I think it means) sits loftily on the sidelines hurling (poorly spelled) insults and put-downs without ever contributing any meaningful content?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 06:52 AM

Ahhhh - probably Shimrod. I took 'right ouse' to be the Yorkshire version of 'Rive Gauche' :-)

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 07:02 AM


Christians don't sneer. Thanks for that Keith. I wish I had courage of my conviction enough to make such huge statements knowing them to be utter bollocks.

That is my experience of Christians Musket, but perhaps I should have just said "It is unchristian to sneer."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 10:20 AM

What Jesus said.
" but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

Or in the translation in Holman Christian Standard Bible
"But I tell you, everyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. And whoever says to his brother, Fool!' will be subject to the Sanhedrin. But whoever says, You moron!' will be subject to hellfire."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 11:26 AM

One to watch out for?

Ancient Confession Found: 'We Invented Jesus Christ'

Biblical scholars will be appearing at the 'Covert Messiah' Conference at Conway Hall in London on the 19th of October to present this controversial discovery to the British public.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 02:09 PM

Bugger hell fire. Sweltering heat already where I am. Mind you, Saturday teatime I shall be landing in Blighty and the temperature seems nice and cool.

Anyway. Where does it say anywhere that Christians don't sneer? What makes a Christian? You claim you are. pete claims he is. Yet you fundamentally disagree on what Christians are supposed to represent or indeed believe in?

What good is a religion that accepts money from people who believe what the Bible says but accepts membership from people who reckon they are too clever? Christians shit on the bog as often as I do.   "Christians do this, Christians don't do that. Churches follow the advice for consumers as per their website. "

Do Christians send money to African thugs to get them elected on capital punishment for gays tickets? Christians do that. Do Christians murder doctors and nurses working in abortion clinics? Christians do that. Do Christians organise book burnings of the Q'ran? Christians do that just to get a reaction.

So. .. is it a broad church or is there a book of Keith they have to agree to before they fit your description?

And what about the good bits? The chaplains I support in my work. The selfless peoplewho use the opportunities their church offers to help others. If they think God created the world in 7 days, aren't they Christians then?

We are getting to the bottom of this now. Your arrogance is breathtaking. All the worse for trying and failing to come over as reasonable.

Oy! Co Messiah and associated gnome! I reckon we have found our ideal ambassador to God bothering movements. He moves in mysterious ways and doesn't recognise religion. I suggest we offer him a decent bung? How much is there in the bingo slush fund?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 04:24 AM

"All the worse for trying and failing to come over as reasonable. "

Now where have I heard that line before?
"Ake....(pissing himself laughing)


On reflection isn't it a bit "chilling"?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 07:25 AM

Well Gnomet.. it was a little short I know ..but I was rushing of to catch me flight to Dubai A big meeting with some of the world leaders on how we can feed the world without imposing to much tax on the rich..

A little more important wouldn't you say than you lot pricking about with your smug, self righteous, ginger pussy inane comments on here.

Jack, I did have hope for you and really did not wanna burst you little self deluded bubble, BUT, you are, always have been and always will be a grade A phoney..a little better than wizzjet and the rest...but your nautical pretensions alone gets you into the the thumb up bum, crayon wedging brigade.

Shinrod..if you read me posts properly you will see there is nothing of the sitting loftily on the sidelines about me. All the crap you and the other rank outsiders and cads spout I have heard, read, absorbed and discarded for the self deluded pseudo intellectual psychobabble and claptrap it is.

The mistake you, seaman styanes, stringplaiter, wizjeter make is looking on my valid comments as insults. Far from it, it is my honest comment on how I perceive you all...lighten up a little you balloons.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 08:08 AM

Could someone explain this to Steve "Evolution is true! Evolution is true! Evolution is true!" Shaw?

Don't think I've ever said that three times in a row or included an exclamation mark (scientific observation must be accurately recorded in order for it to be useful). I guess you just have a bee in your bonnet. You're either prattling away at me or prattling away about you flavour-of-the-month philosopher, you sad thing you. For the record, evolution as a phenomenon that occurs is irrefutable. It's true. The theory of evolution by natural selection is a fantastic explanation of the phenomenon of evolution, though there are still gaps and arguments to be had and probably always will be. To declare that a phenomenon exists is not the science. The science comes in the explanation. You do seem to have difficulty with this and I am trying to be nice to you here. Have you a bike you can go and ride?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 08:59 AM

http://www.covertmessiah.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 09:53 AM

So, "concerened", still nothing meaningful to add then? How can I, and others, judge your lofty claims to superiority when you have added nothing of substance to the conversation? And why, if you're so elevated in intellectual and moral stature, are you still bothering with this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 10:24 AM

"but its ok to talk about evolutionary unobservable ideas like multiverse etc"

Multiverse theory is part of cosmology or physics, and is not something scientists studying evolution or past life are involved in researching. A quick google shows the ever-imaginative creationists have linked the two for some reason.

Pete never produces anything to back up his arguments, which are the usual regurgitated creationist pap.

At least science is a broad church, and there are many people of faith (such as Mary Schweitzer) who are committed believers. A conversation with them would be most interesting I'm sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 10:34 AM

Bloody hell!

If this semi literate twerp with the puerile line in immature insult has done one tenth of what it claims, it must have succeeded in inventing the 48 hour day, and it would still need to be two hundred years old.

My guess is a Walter Mitty teenager with delusions of intelligence.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 11:09 AM

Well shitrod..if you want the answer you obliviously didn't understand the question..back in a while playmates with a more comprehensive report..Flying out to chair a very important meeting in Brussels on food sustainability.


You are close wizzjet on my workload; 18 hours a day is a short shift for me, travel I do not count as I eat and sleep in them times. I do find taking the example of that great states person Mrs Thatcher both sustains me and inspires me..you should try it some time wizzjet.

In my not so humble opinion the amount of time you spend on here with your inane crap MUST be done in works time,, and you know that is the same as stealing of your employer.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 12:12 PM

the amount of time you spend on here with your inane crap MUST be done in works time

Tsk, tsk conc me dear. What makes you think that we actually need to work? I do believe that most of us on here are beyond such menial tasks. Whether you work 18 hours a day saving the world, ferrying tea to China, cooking up curry for the Tanzanian navy or are simply a deluded nincompoop, I genuinely feel sorry for you. Well, for a few minutes anyway, until the laughter sets in again.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 12:36 PM

Hi DtG,

I thought I'd have a go at being a super-being, like "concerened".

Screws up face in concentration:

"Concerened"! You're a silly twat who can't spell!

Phew! That tooks some effort! It's not easy being a super-being!

I think I'll have to go and lie down now.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 03:03 PM

well I, in my admitted relative ignorance, thought all this stuff was interconnected. it seems to be when evolutionists want to assert that all branches of science attest to their belief!.
I think it goes like this. as darwinists know the laws of probability weigh heavily against them, a conjecture that their might be multiple universes, supposedly give the impossible more chance of happening - or is it more complicated than that?.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 03:57 PM

well I, in my admitted relative ignorance...

There is nothing relative about your ignorance. You are the most absolute closed-minded and pig-ignorant person I've come across on this board, and, considering concerened is here, that's saying something. At least he's faintly amusing, unlike you. You insult us by thinking we'll forget that you've posted your ignorant shit many times before and that we won't notice when you recycle it ad nauseam. Nasty little man.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 08:43 PM

Sorry, missed the capital letters.
thread.cfm?threadid=151677#3549746

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 01:13 AM

Mr Shaw. You really must be working for the creationists.

You said this.

"The theory of evolution by natural selection is a fantastic explanation of the phenomenon of evolution,"

The dictionary definition of "fantastic."

fan·tas·tic
fanˈtastik/
adjective
adjective: fantastic

    1.
    imaginative or fanciful; remote from reality.
    "novels are capable of mixing fantastic and realistic elements"
    synonyms:        fanciful, extravagant, extraordinary, irrational, wild, absurd, far-fetched, nonsensical, incredible, unbelievable, unthinkable, implausible, improbable, unlikely, doubtful, dubious;

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket impersonating Dr Johnson
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 04:04 AM

Dredging the barrel a bit aren't we Jerk?

Co Messiah Steve can speak for himself but I didn't read his use of the word fantastic in that sense.

Dictionaries by definition are behind the times as they seek to map out the evolution of language.

But trying to explain evolution in any sense to anyone who factors metaphysical into their take on life ain't going to get us anywhere. So instead, I'll work on the basis you were taking the piss.

Welcome to the club brother!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 08:33 AM

Well thank'ee shaw.. I told you I was GREAT!!!!!!!!

I should be a tad upset with shitrod for his inappropriate remarks.. but I have recently been ordained so an I can now say; "to err is human to forgive divine".

Is it just me or are cracks beginning to show in your little smug club?

The old arch phony seaman staynes and pete from seven starts lenk under attack from some of the more self righteous brethren.

Not very christian is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 08:49 AM

pete is not under attack. 'Tis he who assaults all reason at every turn. He and his sorry ilk are the attackers. His adversaries here are merely the defenders of common sense and reason. I have my own way of putting up that defence, which includes not putting up gladly with fools like him.   

As for you, Wacko, "the dictionary", huh? And which dictionary would that be? The Oxford Concise also gives "extraordinarily good or attractive", the meaning clearly intended in my post. Perhaps you stopped reading the entry before you got to that bit. Or did you just choose not to include such inconveniences in your response? Or maybe you've just got a shite dictionary. I try to write plain, clear English and I don't take take kindly to my use of it being questioned by semi-literates such as your good self. Do have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 11:40 AM

"I think it goes like this. as darwinists know the laws of probability weigh heavily against them"

You can't invoke "the laws of probability", which have been discovered by one branch of science, whilst discrediting an other branch; you're either for science or against it, you can't pick and choose to suit your argument. Your argument consists of 'those nasty Darwinists will say anything to defend their position', whilst back in the real world people have been addressing Darwin's theory since it was published; lots of detail to go into there.

If you're arguing is God (or whatever deity or being you believe in) could exist then that's one thing, if you are arguing if she made the earth in six days 4000 years ago then you need evidence, not just the say so from one source.

Palaeontologists are very well versed with probability and other statistical methodologies, so no issues there (I am yet to get seriously stuck into stats, but it will happen over next few years), but your invocation of multiverses doesn't have any relevance to the argument over evolutionary theory, as even if there are multiple universes all palaeontologists and other earth scientists are only studying the one we can see, which is this one.

Look pete, YOU can settle this and you do not need to be an expert or need to travel to far away places (lots of good fossil-bearing rocks right here in the UK). Find a non-derived fossil where modern palaeontological theory says it shouldn't be. Test the science and prove it wrong. Find a horse in Triassic strata, a salamander in the Edicarian or a turtle in the Devonian. Produce one out of sequence fossil, record and note it's location (so it can be confirmed) and you will be the most famous person in history, you would probably win a nobel prize: the man who re-wrote the textbooks, who proved creationism might be correct.

Go on.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket doing Dr Johnson again
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 12:34 PM

Co Messiah Steve. Of course he has a crap dictionary. Webster was a lazy fraud according to Bill Bryson. But notwithstanding that, our nautical friend is a Christian and judging by other idiots on recent threads, selective posting to make rational people look fools is part of the deal.

But they don't sneer. Clapton forbid that you accuse anyone who sneers purely on the basis they are sneering. After all, they may be christians and according to Keith, Christians don't sneer, therefore we must be mistaken.

I reckon I'm going to become a boutique Christian. You don't have to believe in all that seven day stuff, or whales that eat men, or rain of the type usually found in Bury, or bringing a bloke back from the dead, or keeping slaves, or seeing women as chattel, or finding a tart rather than having a wank, or divine intervention. In fact, all you have to do is say you believe and then you can command respect! It doesn't matter what you believe. The embarrassing parts of the bible are fodder for the petes of this world.

Perhaps all you have to believe in is your own vanity?

Now that IS a thought...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 12:38 PM

"I should be a tad upset with shitrod for his inappropriate remarks.. but I have recently been ordained so an I can now say; "to err is human to forgive divine".

Is it just me or are cracks beginning to show in your little smug club?"

That deranged little outburst points directly to where the cracks lie!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 02:06 PM

Conc, can I ask a question. If you were flying out to Brussels at 12 Oct 13 - 11:09 AM, shortly after getting back from Dubai at 12 Oct 13 - 07:25 AM and then posted back here at 13 Oct 13 - 08:33 AM how on earth did you ever find time to become ordained? And what did you become ordained as? Just wondering.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 04:13 PM

God moves in mysterious ways my gnomish friend, that's how...

I was on the plane following his most of the way. Mine set out from Abu Dhabi, just down the road. I wasn't ordained there though, just sobering up en route from Thailand.

And there Back in Thailand I did something rather religious... I had a Buddhist monk put a wrist band on me and bless me. Still got it on now, although I will have to cut it off before tomorrow. Bare below elbows and all that, and my office is in a hospital.

Religion versus your average infection control nurse? God isn't even in the same league when it comes to obedience and scaring people into doing as they are told.

Anyway, early night and back to reality in the morning. I bought a three wise Buddhas ornament for my desk. Hear no bollocks, see no bollocks, say no bollocks. Doesn't seem very religious to me? Mind you the price was right, they look cute and when people pop in for a whinge, they may put them off their stride.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 04:35 PM

""I do find taking the example of that great states person Mrs Thatcher both sustains me and inspires me..you should try it some time wizzjet.""

Well sonny, if you took the trouble (or possessed the intelligence) to apprise yourself of the facts concerning (without the supefluous "e") those whom you so despise, you might have known that in addition to having retired from paid employment, I am in fact a Tory who probably knows a great deal more than a jumped up schoolboy about the politics of the 20th century.

I never needed to indulge in self aggrandisement by inventing spurious credentials, and imagined skills, having paid my own way by constant employment, without a gap from 1957 till 2006.

When you grow up, I hope you will have developed a self image which will render this behaviour unnecessary, but I have some doubts about the likelihood.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 04:56 PM

and why can
I not "invoke" the laws of probability , stu.
you are again just asserting that the other disciplines provide strong evidence, and expect me to believe it.
you are also still trying to pass off belief in a creator as anti science , when it is rather a case of competing ideas which interpret the data variously.
the only challenge of any substance that you present regards the positioning of fossils in the geologic column.
whilst acknowledging that there is apparently an order in the fossils , it is not as clearcut as you might like to think, and specimens have been moved in position as new fossil discoveries are unearthed.
I have no doubt that in the event of spectacular discoveries in the fossils coming to light, you will only fall back on your pious pronouncements of science never assuming anything, just as you now do with the dino discoveries.
mind you, you do offer more to chew on than someone else here who only offers insults and flowery assertions!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 05:47 PM

and why can
I not "invoke" the laws of probability , stu.

You can't invoke them because you don't understand them. Simple. Actually, you understand very little about anything that actually matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 06:32 PM

I notice you invoking the name of the Thatcher ... person there "concerened". Presumably you believe that all you need to succeed in life is 'hard work', that "markets should be free" and that if we remove the burdens of regulation from Big Business and the banks and taxation from the already rich then they will get even richer and the wealth will 'trickle down' and enrich us all!! Allelueia!!!

Well if you believe that load of shitey bollocks you're as deluded as pete!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 08:38 PM

I wouldn't worry, Shimrod. He understands nothing. He is, of course, an excellent source of amusement. He's far more fun, for example, than the ignorant pete and the depressingly-dismal Wacko. Thank Clapton for small mercies, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 03:28 AM

Trouble is Steve, these idiots represent a danger to the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 05:43 AM

"and why can I not "invoke" the laws of probability"

Because you're cherrypicking which parts of science to believe according to your belief system. You are starting with a premise and shoehorning certain theories to fit, rather than observing something and working backwards to find out why/how etc and then developing a theory from that. That's fine, but it ain't science.

"whilst acknowledging that there is apparently an order in the fossils , it is not as clearcut as you might like to think, and specimens have been moved in position as new fossil discoveries are unearthed."

Not as clearcut as I like to think? Really? You need to tell me more about this, I'm just about to undertake an extended period of research on dinosaurs and thought I understood how the fossil record was laid down and how palaeontologists and geologists use these fossils in a myriad of ways. Explain this please!

"I have no doubt that in the event of spectacular discoveries in the fossils coming to light, you will only fall back on your pious pronouncements of science never assuming anything, just as you now do with the dino discoveries."

I don't do pious Pete, not my thing. There are infinitely more talented and knowledgeable palaeontologists than I whose opinion me and many others would like to hear, were such a spectacular discovery to occur. Except it won't occur will it? Because if any creationists are out there looking for such fossils they haven't found them, and you're not out there helping. Given all this, how could you even know the science is wrong? You presume to know the mind of God?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 06:35 AM

""when it is rather a case of competing ideas which interpret the data variously.""

You certainly got that right Pete!

two methods of interpreting data!!

The scientist taking the data and questioning whether it is self consistent and logical and seeking peer review for whatever conclusions derive from it, and even when the data proves valid and fits all the criteria of the many disciplines it must satisfy, he does not speak of proof, truth, or completion. He is open to the idea that his conclusions may be superceded as new data emerges.

The Creationist "knows" God did it 6000 years ago in seven days and makes the data fit that preconception by ignoring or suppressing any inconvenient evidence to the contrary.

You deviously skirt round the fact that your claim of scientists drawing conclusions based upon preconceptions falls at the very first hurdle.

Tell me Pete, what preconceptions do you suppose the devout Christian, Charles Darwin, acted upon? THERE WAS NO PRECURSOR, so his conclusions were based purely upon the evidence which he found in his explorations, and being a Christian, he agonised for years before publishing.

How does this fit with your preconceptions of what scientists do, or are?

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 06:58 AM

Steve "EVOLUTION IS TRUE! EVOLUTION IS TRUE! EVOLUTION IS TRUE!" Shaw (got it right that time)
Don't think I've ever said that three times in a row or included an exclamation mark

Er, yes you did.

(scientific observation must be accurately recorded in order for it to be useful).

Very true and it's always best to check your facts before implying that others haven't checked theirs. Ignoring facts that don't fit your thesis isn't very scientific either. Still, it gave you a handy excuse to ignore the quotes from Stu and Shimrod neither of whom I would describe as "flavour-of-the-month philosopher".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 08:22 AM

Ah yes, indeed I did! (took me 20 minutes to find it and I don't recommend the search).

Now do apprise us of the context of that remark of mine, which was directed at you purely as a richly-deserved piss-take! But yes, I did say it. Guilty as charged, yerronner...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 08:46 AM

"Still, it gave you a handy excuse to ignore the quotes from Stu and Shimrod neither of whom I would describe as "flavour-of-the-month philosopher"."

I'm not sure how to take that!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 09:05 AM

Nor me!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket smiling
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 09:09 AM

How to take it?

With a smile.

I find the same smug satisfied smile that God Botherers hand out to be the best smile. It works for them, even when defending fantasy against reliable facts.

Put in the immortal words of Corporal Jones.   The fuzzy wuzzies don't like it up'em!

You see, the snail likes a bit of Jesus in his philosophy. That's all. And like religion, snails leave a smeary mess wherever they go. Oh yes, it glistens but eventually you see how sticky yet insubstantial it really is.

(Come on. Be fair. Not bad considering I have to go now and haven't time to flesh out a decent analogy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 09:41 AM

I was referring to that falsifiability chap that he's wont to rattle on about. All Mudcat philosophers are exempt!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 11:19 AM

Steve Shaw

Ah yes, indeed I did! (took me 20 minutes to find it and I don't recommend the search).

I suggest you get a new service provider. It shouldn't have taken 20 minutes to follow the link I gave you.

Now do apprise us of the context of that remark of mine, which was directed at you purely as a richly-deserved piss-take!

Really? As an amplification of your usual mantra, it sounds more as if you were taking the piss out of yourself.

But yes, I did say it. Guilty as charged, yerronner...

Historic day. Steve Shaw admits he's wrong about something.

Anyway, now we've got that out of the way, perhaps you' like to respond to the quotes from Stu and Shimrod I posted earlier. To save you spending twenty minutes looking for it, here's the post thread.cfm?threadid=152125&messages=456#3565608.

Stu and Shimrod

In that post, I quote examples of good scientific thinking from the two of you. Steve responded with "You're either prattling away at me or prattling away about you flavour-of-the-month philosopher, you sad thing you." Seems he doesn't think much of your contributions. He now says "I was referring to that falsifiability chap that he's wont to rattle on about." He means Sir Karl Popper, probably the greatest philosopher of science of the twentieth century and originator of the concept of falsifiability. Steve seems to think he knows better.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 11:25 AM

Well done, Musket. You're getting almost as good at using gratuitous abuse as a substitute for intelligent debate as Steve.

By the way, I'm not really a snail. TheSnail is simply my Mudcat nickname. Thought you ought to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 11:30 AM

I JUST NEW IT!!!! the arch fraud and poser wussget is a closet Tory!!!


"I never needed to indulge in self aggrandisement by inventing spurious credentials, and imagined skills, having paid my own way by constant employment, without a gap from 1957 till 2006" Well why would you?

Typical smug Tory response, you say that like you have done some thing special.Millions of people go to work and don't shout about it from the rooftops.I guess from your level of intelligence special skills or credentials are completely superfluous to your requirements.

I have nothing against shelf stacker or janitors as workers in the great scheme of things, but you hardly do earth shattering things as I do.

Speaking as revolutionary socialist I can say the the grocers daughter was a great states person,, only thing was she was on the wrong side..compared to this lot she was left wing..and that does include millibland and his ginger party,

Shimplop....thank'ee but I have had a share of patronising today..I certainly don't need a lesson in economics or politics from either you or wussget..I have a first in both subjects from Oxford.

I would like to see things from your point of view but I cant get my head that far up my arse!!

this is to easy..just like shooting fish in a barrell

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 11:37 AM

as you are about to embark on extensive dino research, stu, I guess you can get some credit for your soundbite that I aint out there looking for evidence. you will I am sure be presupposing that the geologic column is deposited from deep time ,rather than by flood ,though I feel sure local floods will be granted if needs be.
flood and associated geologic activity account for the general order in the fossil bearing strata in the creationist model.
in such a model such general order ,with some exceptions would be expected and this is what is found.
there are a number of examples easily found on creation.com, including of some supposed long gone , found alive and well and showing no signs of having evolved in the loooooong interim.
OTOH for all the evolutionists out there looking for transitional forms, there seems to be a large lack.
and science wrong? no but some scientists might well be.
know the mind of God?. well no ,unless of course he has revealed some things to us, as I believe he has.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 11:37 AM

The above was I.
Oh...............I nearly forgot to add, shaw, if you are gonna be a smart ass, first be smart, or you are gonna end up just an ass..but you knew that anyway didn't you, you smug phony?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 11:47 AM

This is so funny. I think Conc likes to believe we are taking it seriously sometimes. First Danny Kaye, then Ben Stiller then Conc. I was worried about encouraging him (Her? It? Shit?) but it has paid off dividends far beyond my imaginings. Keep 'em coming dear Conc. They will let you out eventually and we will miss those tragically comic ramblings.

Messiah S - Don't worry about people taking things out of context. These religious types do it all the time as has been demonstrated time and time again. Should I quote an eye for an eye or turn the other cheek at this point. I can't remember...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 12:04 PM

Anyone care to comment on Joseph Atwill's contention that Christianity and Jesus was made up by the Romans patterned after Tiberius Flavius other than to say he was just capitalizing on writing books, is not a legitimate scholar and is a liar? Bart Ehrman disagrees with Atwill and states that as a bible scholar he, himself, is not a Christian.

One of the arguments is that Rome had other stronger enemies than the Jews and why would Rome address the Jewish population this way?

I think that it could conceivably have an effect at pacifying the Jewish population at the time to get them to pay taxes (render unto Caesar) and "turn the other cheek" whereas they had no control over the Visagoths, Gauls, Vandals and Ostrogoths.

Bart Ehrman stakes his reputation on the fact that there is a historical Jesus and Atwill is not qualified academically, to make his statements. He claims that historical evidence is conclusive by off hand and non-propagandistic statements made by such figures as Paul. He asks, "How do you know Julius Caesar existed since no one was around at his time to offer physical evidence of his existence?" In other words, we only have historical evidence to support claims of this nature.

The problem here for me is that history is often distorted by well-intentioned scholars who claim credentials. Case in point, the Schlessinger/Zinn controversy about American history.

Future historians will undoubtably dispute the historical scholarship of today.

I don't think Atwill has been dismissed as easily as some Christian scholars would like to believe. We do have physical evidence for the Holocaust and the subjugation of the American Indians by white colonists. None for the existence of Jesus.

The problem is, for Atwill and others, who is this Jesus? Who has the definitive character traits of him? Is the King James version of the bible totally reliable and if so why? This Jesus is enigmatic in the same way that any god appears except to believers.

I have an open mind regarding the existence of a Jesus but am not convinced that the evidence presented is sufficient to say one way or another. Whether this Jesus is a god is an entirely different question.

Why is all this important? Because in the US and other places, foreign policy is determined by "believers" who claim to know things others don't and they are in governments and are often influential politicians. These erstwhile leaders often put us into war based on pseudo-biblical prophecy and fanatical ideas.

Discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 12:42 PM

I thought you might like to know I am a real musket though.


Bloody err.. bang.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 12:49 PM

"I certainly don't need a lesson in economics or politics from either you or wussget..I have a first in both subjects from Oxford."

Well, fancy that! Who would have believed it?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 02:05 PM

I thought you might like to know I am a real musket though.

Centuries out of date and wildly inaccurate?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 03:21 PM

Anyway, 'concerened', you went to Oxford University, did you? I can just imagine your eloquent letter of application:

"Hey Poxyford! I think yor all a bunch of clever dick tossers, lemme in to do a coarse!"

They must have been falling over themselves!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 05:23 PM

To well capitalised, punctuated and spaced, Shimrod. You will never match good ol' Conc like that!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 06:12 PM

Worry not, Dave. The last thing I ever worry about is the tits hereabouts having a go. It's such fun. As for Snailieboy (or girl?) praising the Lord and passing the ammunition when I admit to a mistake, well I should like him to recollect that no-one who posts here is quicker to admit to his blunders than yours truly. As a matter of fact, in this case I was certainly not crowing about the truth of evolution (only a fool, actually, would deny the truth of evolution, but hey ho). He was off on his hols and I was taking the piss by pretending his absence meant I could shout "EVOLUTION IS TRUE!!!" without him having a go back. Anyone can check the ref if they really want to, but Gastropodus insensibilitis made it very difficult to do because all he did was quote a thread that was about fourteen miles long. Jaysus, you just can't get the bloody staff...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 07:03 PM

I said Musket, not Christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 03:00 AM

It is boy, Messiah S. Brian, as on the Magic Roundabout but I seem to recall it may be spelt with a 'y'. I did notice, hence the comment about context. But you knew that of course :-)

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 05:08 AM

"you will I am sure be presupposing that the geologic column is deposited from deep time ,rather than by flood ,though I feel sure local floods will be granted if needs be."

Speaking for the localities I'm working on at present, there is no evidence that these sediments were laid down in a single flood event. There are (as you suggest) local flood events but these occur as subordinate beds and are locally confined (seasonal floods in a semi-arid environment). One thing worth noting is that when working with sedimentology the rule of thumb is 'question everything', so pretty much every time a facies analysis is done the question of it's origin is revisited.


"OTOH for all the evolutionists out there looking for transitional forms, there seems to be a large lack"

They're palaeontologists and biologists, not evolutionists. There are plenty of transitional forms (in a sense every form is transitional), but I get your gist. In fact, you need to look at the literature more. We have plenty of forms that show the evolution of certain traits within clades (they're way to numerous for one person to know) and are transitional in the sense you mean, but the tree of life is a complex and wonderful construct (and it is a human construct, devised to help understand a number of natural processes) and there are thousands of years worth of work left to unravel it's intricacies.

For example, we now have pretty much identified the morphotype (body plan of a living organism) that gave rise to avians. We might (or might not) have the actual taxa but we need more data to tell, but we can say that a) flight did not evolve in avians, but in other dinosaurs before avians evolved b) These were small gliding and flying animals that had four wings and c) the two-winged condition of birds is probably derived. How brilliant is that?

Get down and dirty with the literature on any fossil lineage and you'll find discussions on how they evolved. It is complex subject area to be sure, but a fascinating all the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 05:46 AM

""I JUST NEW IT!!!! the arch fraud and poser wussget is a closet Tory!!!""

No closet, anonymous prick. Everybody on Mudcat knows I am a left wing Tory.

Instead of standing on the sidelines throwing shit, like a good little faux socialist, I put my efforts into persuading my Tory MP to vote for what is right and moderate.

Maybe that's a small part of the reason why she is opposing the second section of the "Transparency in Lobbying Bill".

And isn't it time YOU came out of the closet, instead of cowering behind your convenient cloak of anonymity like the dismal know nothing coward that you are?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 06:18 AM

It'll never happen, Don.

There are some scenarios need considering here
1. It is a troll, in which case an idiot
2. It genuinely believes the postings, in which case an idiot
3. Thinks it will fool someone, in which case an idiot
4. Genuinely has done all these things but chooses to come across as an idiot, in which case successful or
5. Is an idiot

Whichever it is you are on a loser asking for sensible things like that. Just laugh at it and enjoy the show.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 06:44 AM

Steve "Evolution is true." Shaw

Worry not, Dave. The last thing I ever worry about is the tits hereabouts having a go. It's such fun.

You didn't really pick up the spirit of the "Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'" thread did you Steve?

As for Snailieboy (or girl?) praising the Lord and passing the ammunition when I admit to a mistake, well I should like him to recollect that no-one who posts here is quicker to admit to his blunders than yours truly.

"praising the Lord"? Do I detect a subtle plan to blacken my name by associating me with God botherers? Musket used a similar technique. Subtle? Steve? Nah, it doesn't work. I think he automatically assumes that anyone who dares to question his authority must be a creationist. Steve, I don't oppose you because I am among the Godly, I oppose you because you are promoting bad science. I must have blinked and missed it when you admitted your blunders.

As a matter of fact, in this case I was certainly not crowing about the truth of evolution (only a fool, actually, would deny the truth of evolution, but hey ho).

Shimrod
evolutionary scientists, like all true scientists, assign probabilities to their conclusions - and rarely, if ever, do they assign a probability of 100%.

Don(Wyziwyg)T

The scientist taking the data and questioning whether it is self consistent and logical and seeking peer review for whatever conclusions derive from it, and even when the data proves valid and fits all the criteria of the many disciplines it must satisfy, he does not speak of proof, truth, or completion.

Sorry guys but Steve thinks you are fools.

He was off on his hols and I was taking the piss by pretending his absence meant I could shout "EVOLUTION IS TRUE!!!" without him having a go back.

But you do say "Evolution is true." rather a lot. I've amended you name above. Is that a fair compromise?

Anyone can check the ref if they really want to, but Gastropodus insensibilitis made it very difficult to do because all he did was quote a thread that was about fourteen miles long. Jaysus, you just can't get the bloody staff...

No, Steve, I linked directly to your post within that thread. It takes a few seconds not twenty minutes. Always best to make sure you've got things right before blaming others.

Readers will observe that Steve has still avoided commenting on Stu's wise words that I quoted earlier "what is important is understanding what science is and how it works, and you don't need to be a scientist to know that. You do have to get off your arse do some work though to familiarise yourself with the philosophies and methodologies that make 'science' what it is, and explains how it's come to be practiced as it is and how it changes with time.

Good advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 07:32 AM

Sorry, Bryan (It is with a y isn't it?) No axe to grind here but must correct your assertion that I linked directly to your post within that thread.

The link you provide, in Firefox 24.0 anyway, simply opens the whole thread without linking to the post in question. The thread being huge takes ages to load and paging through it can take time to find what you are looking for. I suggest that, like all good scientists, you test your theories in a number of scenarios before stating them as fact.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 08:02 AM

Thank you for spelling my name right Dave.

I am using Firefox 24.0. I have just followed the link. It first opens the thread at the top while it downloads it. While it is downloading you will see "Transferring data from www.mudcat.org" in the bottom left hand corner. When it has finished it jumps to the relevant post. I admit that it took about 1min 40secs rather than the few seconds that I said. As you said, it's a huge thread. Sorry but there's nothing I can do about that; that's where the post is.

I did test it. It does work

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 08:13 AM

You could link to the post in a numbered thread section instead of the whole thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 08:30 AM

Maybe I could, Keith. I could also have tested it under Internet Explorer, Safari, Chrome, Opera, iOS and Android but I didn't and I'm not going to.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 08:42 AM

None of those would make any difference.
It would load from a thread section as fast as clicking the "d" works.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 08:46 AM

thread.cfm?threadid=152125&messages=480&page=9#3565608

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 09:19 AM

it took about 1min 40secs

Maybe it is the network connection or maybe Mudcat workload fluctuates but I just waited over 3 minutes (timed on a Lorus watch if you need to know) and then cancelled the load. I usually wait a minute or so before deciding that something is wrong and aborting.

Not your problem I know but don't assume everyone's connections are the same or our levels of concentration are as long as yours. Maybe going at a snail's pace gives you more patience :-)

Absolutely nothing to do with the point in discussion of course but a good diversionary escapade anyway.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 09:35 AM

Very nice Keith but totally irrelevant. The accusation was that the link only pointed to the thread not the post and that I was at fault for not testing it. I had tested it. It does work.

Absolutely nothing to do with the point in discussion of course but a good diversionary escapade anyway.
Indeed and a valuable lesson to you and your master that automatically assuming that I am the one at fault is not the best policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 09:36 AM

BTW - Lots of browsers are set to timeout after a few seconds waiting - As does my IE8 on the same machine. It never gets further than some posts on the 13th of August before hanging with "Done, but with errors on page". This is part of the reason that Max introduced the breakdown of threads into bite-sized pieces. It is a good feature and, for future reference, well worth using.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 09:42 AM

Indeed and a valuable lesson to you and your master that automatically assuming that I am the one at fault is not the best policy.

I refer you to my comment immediately before that post

Not your problem I know

How does that fit in with automatically assuming it was your fault? And who do you reckon my 'master' is?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 10:09 AM

Now, now wussget, is that the way they teach you to argue in the left wing Tory party..what a load of crap!!I have told you before about using apropriouse epithets.

By the way,never got the habit of been a fence sitter: here is just some of the direct action I have been involved in:

1. I Was on the original Aldermarston march
2. I have been on more demos than you have had hot dinners,
3. fought the BNP in several engagements,
4. was at Orgreave scrapping with the coppers
5. was on the march for jobs,
6. was an activist against your mates poll tax,and loads more.

Makes your friendly chats with your tame mp look a bit parochial dont it you beige phony? away back to your slippers and crossword and leave real work to proper socialists

Left wing Tory, that is like calling gnomet a tall dwarf.Your stance? is really hedging your bets, also that is the act of a real coward.

When will you smug, ginger, cake eating,light programme listening, telegraph readers get of your fat asses and realise:

Organised labour has got, never had and never will have nothing in common with capital.

Keep having your friendly chats with the enemy, wussyget,and moving motions, you will get a cosy feel/feeling and that is all.

Gmometic: pardon me, but you have obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a shit..oh and keep talking, someday you may, I said may, say something intelligent..

Hey Shitrod.!! I would like to leave you with one thought...but I am a little unsure you would have anywhere to put it.

any more for anymore?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 10:25 AM

Dave the Gnome

How does that fit in with automatically assuming it was your fault?

Steve "Evolution is true." Shaw

Anyone can check the ref if they really want to, but Gastropodus insensibilitis made it very difficult to do because all he did was quote a thread that was about fourteen miles long. Jaysus, you just can't get the bloody staff...

Dave the Gnome

No axe to grind here but must correct your assertion that I linked directly to your post within that thread.

The link you provide, in Firefox 24.0 anyway, simply opens the whole thread without linking to the post in question. The thread being huge takes ages to load and paging through it can take time to find what you are looking for. I suggest that, like all good scientists, you test your theories in a number of scenarios before stating them as fact.

I did test it. It does work (on a decent ISP). End of.

And who do you reckon my 'master' is?

You are, are you not, the Chief Disciple of the self appointed Messiah Steve? You do seem to follow his lead in all things.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 10:30 AM

Gmometic: pardon me, but you have obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a shit..

Absolutely not, dear Conc. If you was to tell me you DID give a shit I would not believe a word of it. In fact, if you were to tell me it was Tuesday I would have severe doubts. Tell you what I will do, since you seem to have communication issues, I will make it easy for you to understand.

I believe that every claim you have made on here is untrue. Let us go through a few of the more extreme.

1. You are intelligent.
2. You care about other people.
3. You were a vice-Admiral in the Tanzanian navy.
4. You are ordained.
5. You chaired a meeting in Brussels.
6. You have 2 masters degrees from Oxford.

There are a shed load of others but I think you may get the gist. I really do know that you could not care less but, just to prove what a phoney I am, how about you substantiate any single claim that you have made with some sort of evidence.

We all know that you are talking bollocks. We know that you know that you are talking bollocks. I, for one, am unsure of your motives in telling such ridiculous tales but, as I said before, it does amuse me. So please carry on with the charade for as long as you like. I will tire of it eventually but I am sure you will realise that we are all taking the piss before that.

Or maybe not?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 10:35 AM

So, selected references eh? No mention of the later comment that it was not your problem? Ah well. I can live with that and at least the evidence is all in the same place for all to see. As to

You are, are you not, the Chief Disciple of the self appointed Messiah Steve?

No, Bryan, it is made up. Just as you are not really a snail and Ian is not really a Musket.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 01:16 PM

The inadequacy of your broadnband connection is a side issue and is, indeed, not my problem. The fact that both you and your Messiah (just joining in the joke) claimed that I had provided a link that only went to the thread not the specific post and implied that I was incompetent and unscientific for doing so is my problem. You were wrong. All good scientists would admit their error.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket smiling
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 02:06 PM

At Orgreave eh?

We noticed a load of agitators at the back shouting "Charge!" And the police were quite bemused to see us turn and beat the crap out of the Socialist Workers Party idiots hijacking and exacerbating our genuine grievance.

Obviously, you weren't there, but I like to think you was. I left before the riot act was read out and take no pride in the mess that followed, but giving outside agitators a good hiding was almost as good as when we were queuing for food parcels and a photographer was on the other side of the road snapping away. I was one of those who held him whilst we spoilt his film and smashed his camera. Didn't hurt him, but the leader in the Sun the following day spoke of the thugs who attacked him.

Ah never mind. Once I saw my barbecued donkey on the road to Damascus, I decided being a filthy rotten capitalist allowed for a better vintage of pinot. Never looked back...

Be careful with your fantasy old chap. Some of us had to live them out for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 04:00 PM

You were wrong. All good scientists would admit their error.

Absolutely. Hence my comment

Maybe it is the network connection or maybe Mudcat workload fluctuates but I just waited over 3 minutes (timed on a Lorus watch if you need to know) and then cancelled the load. I usually wait a minute or so before deciding that something is wrong and aborting.

Not your problem

While never actually stating it was your 'fault', I said all along that I can see how you thought it was implied so I qualified it with the 'maybe's' as detailed above. What is there not to understand there? But I do understand that when one is looking for a fight one will always try to provoke one. Just not working here I'm afraid:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 04:38 PM

Dave, until a few hours ago I had been completely ignoring you on Mudcat, a policy that has served me well for a long time. It's good to be reminded why.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 05:07 PM

so, stu, it is not evol... but paele.... biologists.
that does not stop them being evolutionists does it?
clades?- is that from cladistics, which in my simple way, is the study of different organisms displaying similarities, of which darwinists read common descent and creationists read common design?
somewhat like a bike , a car ,an articulated truck, and an aircraft.
they all evolved from a simple wheel and progressed up the evolutionary pathway and eventually took to the air!
you can of course accuse me of gross ignorance, but alternately you could [maybe] provide actual evidence of the [continuously changing] theory which you assert is evidenced.
full marks though for enthusiastically promoting what you believe the evidence shows you. I guess we can all take that as an example to follow.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 05:18 PM

'concerened', how come your spelling improved markedly in your last outburst (not sure what an "apropriouse epithet" is though). Did you get someone else to write it for you?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 05:27 PM

Please carry on doing what you do best, Bryan. Like I said, if you want to fight, please feel free, but you are on your own as far as I am concerned. Do try to stick to the point of the thread though rather than tilting at non-existent windmills.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 06:16 PM

Pete, you win full marks for keeping the flag upright. Readers who are interested in evolution and genetics should read the ample material available on the Internet, starting with Wikipedia. As I wrote, it is not simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 07:15 PM

Gosh, I go away for a day to climb Dunkery Beacon to visit the site (on what would have been his birthday) where my wonderful father-in-law's ashes were scattered, and what do I find? Why, Snailie Boy/Girl (I knew a girl called Bryan once - a bit dodgy, but hey ho) is still having a go about me and my evolution-is-true truth! Now listen up, trail-of-slime. Here's chapter and verse, you bloody lousy stalker you. Evolution is true. It happens. It exists. It cannot be refuted (do feel free to stop me whenever you like...) But, saying "evolution is true" is not a scientific statement. After breakfast this morning I had a really good, hearty shit. I hardly have the words to convey to you the satisfaction thereof. But telling you that I had a good, hearty shit is not a scientific statement. It is a statement (which you may, at your peril, feel free to refute, of course: have a chat with pete. He'll tell you that black is white and, in all probability, that Steve can't possibly shit) of what happened in the real world. Now evolution is true. It's true because it happens and only a fool would say it doesn't. Perhaps you're one of those fools. Do tell us if you're not completely certain that evolution happens.

However.

Evolution needs to be explained. There are many details and nuances that worry even its most ardent adherents. So what we have is the theory of evolution by natural selection. 'Tis is a wonderful theory because it espouses a massive body of superb evidence. Evidence in the very best scientific meaning of the word. The theory explains evolution really well. But the theory is an explanation of the truth, and that theory still has a lot of explaining to do. Now do go along and shove your philosophical carpings where the sun don't shine, dear boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 03:55 AM

"somewhat like a bike , a car ,an articulated truck, and an aircraft.
they all evolved from a simple wheel and progressed up the evolutionary pathway and eventually took to the air!"

Could you just run that past me again, pete?!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 04:07 AM

500!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 05:18 AM

To celebrate the half-thousand, I propose to return to the thread title. On the thread "Religion, which is the best one?" we discussed about non-believers' love of church rituals. Some of these form "humanist" organizations such as the BHA which boasts Richard Dawkins as its vice president. Musket calls them silly and insists that his rituals be performed by genuine CofE priests. Would others like to comment?

BTW: The ancient word atheist always means "not accepting any god", without any propagandistic connotation. In contrast, religious propagandists, e.g. of Islam, often call followers of other religions "non-believers" to suggest that they are in fact atheists. Of course non-atheists will disapprove of atheists, and will do so by any other name. In particular, the idea that non-believers will take licence for any kind of "godless crimes" is intrinsic to the simplistic belief that religion is the source of ethics.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 05:34 AM

I quite like ritual. Being brought up in a Russian Orthodox followed by Roman Catholic (when they used to use Latin!) environment I grew accustomed to the sung liturgy and have always found it quite beautiful. Of course I decided that the religious bit was quite unnecessary at an early age. I would still quite happily attend a sung mass but see it far more as an entertainment and a social gathering than anything else.

Oddly enough I still wear a cross as a remnant from my childhood (Read about the Cossacks if you want to know why!) and a St Christopher but that is pure superstition. My son once removed St Chris from his car and the very same day the car was written off by an uninsured driver! Nasty buggers these old Saints if you slight them :-)

I do like the definition 'not accepting any god'.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 07:03 AM

"they all evolved from a simple wheel and progressed up the evolutionary pathway and eventually took to the air!"

With respect, this example is so far from being analogous to the process of evolution it's ludicrous.


"but alternately you could [maybe] provide actual evidence of the [continuously changing] theory which you assert is evidenced."

I suspect I could spend the rest of my life trying to convince you, with little success and I have work to do. However, were you seriously interested in getting to grips with the other side of the argument a good place to start is the OU course Evolution (S366).

"full marks though for enthusiastically promoting what you believe the evidence shows you"

Thanks. I did look on creation.com at the evolution-debunking pdf, but once more it's wrong on so many levels it would take an age to unknit the whole thing, and in reality it's displays the fundamental philosophical difference that means that creationism is too extreme a view for science to discuss as we disagree on how the question of earth's origins can even be addressed.

"non-believers' love of church rituals"

I'm not sure I'm an atheists as such, as I believe their could be a scientifically explicable intelligence that could be indistinguishable from what some people might call 'god'. It could be so utterly powerful that it might be able to manipulate matter and time at a cosmic level. That's not say I believe in an afterlife (I don't). At the very least we are the universe made conscious, I'm not sure any religion has come up with a concept as profound and wonderful as that.

Why is this relevant? Because I wonder if our desire for ritual (which I think is important) is part of us recognising the indifference of the universe to our suffering and desiring to impose some order in order to make existence bearable. I strongly believe the rituals of religions allow us to reflect on the way our lives are to a large degree outside our control and seasonal rituals highlight various issues we face as part of simply being alive. A lack of ritual in secular life is perhaps why we choose to fill the void with the sort of vacuous crap that passes for entertainment and instruction these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 07:15 AM

Well shitrod, you spotted the deliberate mistake; there is hope for you yet.

It should have read of course: opprobrious epithets. It means expressing contemptuous reproach; scornful or abusive: opprobrious epithets. Bringing disgrace .
A fair description of you and rest of the soot juggling, thumb up, bum inhabitant ginger cake eaters on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 07:33 AM

What's a 'bum inhabitant ginger cake'?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 08:27 AM

I would be really interested in more answers to the question whether you approve of non-religious rituals such as offered by the BHA, and why or why not. What do such organizations have in common with churches, what not? What do (potential) members really want? Does organized "humanism" (meaning atheism plus some "positive" content) amount to an ideology? Would you wish existing church organizations to be transformed into such services?

Stu, I think you are somewhat mixing the objects of science ("scientifically explicable") with the acts of human thinking and feeling. My own feeling is that religion is primarily about humans, so I can call myself a humanist without inverted commas.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 08:41 AM

approve of non-religious rituals such as offered by the BHA,

Yes.

and why or why not.

Because I like rituals. C'mon, this is a folk based forum!

What do such organizations have in common with churches,

People.

what not?

Religion.

What do (potential) members really want?

I want entertainment. No idea about anyone else.

Does organized "humanism" (meaning atheism plus some "positive" content) amount to an ideology?

No.

Would you wish existing church organizations to be transformed into such services?

No.

Do I pass?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 09:06 AM

Do I pass?

Nothing to pass here, and no full marks to win, Dave. We want to learn about other people, e.g. note the marked difference between you and Musket.

Of course ceremonies are never meant to be entertainment, even if they comprise elements designed for entertaining side effects (such as Gospel choirs in showbiz style). Therefore, my question should better run "Do you find such rituals worthwhile and meaningful as intended?"

No "yes" yet - where are ye, Dawkins' supporters?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 09:25 AM

"Do you find such rituals worthwhile and meaningful as intended?"

Yes, they mean many things to many different people and are, therefore, meaningful.They are also as intended. As you say yourself, they have an element of entertainment. They are, therefore intended to entertain and by virtue of both the above, they are also worthwhile.

So, there are two or three yeses :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 09:37 AM

The marked difference between Brother Gnome and I is that I can tell you that it is raining a few milliseconds before he can. Also, being a slap head, I can comment accurately on the pitch, temperature and wind adjustment of said rain.

I keep telling you. People like the idea of a church being there for family social occasions. The reason being tradition, nostalgia and for many, harking back to innocence when you actually believed what you were told as it is hardwired in children to trust adults.

The snag is, many priests have misinterpreted the phrase "suffer the children. "

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 09:55 AM

Spot on, Messiah M. I would also be able to tell pitch, temperature etc. if it wasn't for the pointy hat:-)

I have the same view of churches and any secular temple. They both host social gatherings and both therefore perform a useful function. The major difference is that I don't believe anyone has lopped of someone's head for not attending the local town hall on a Sunday, or Saturday, or Friday. Sheesh, this multi-religion thing is getting tedious...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 12:20 PM

Come on, 'concerened', don't get cocky just because your carer is helping you with your spelling (do ask her to increase your meds though!).

By the way, what IS a "bum inhabitant ginger cake"?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 12:56 PM

"Stu, I think you are somewhat mixing the objects of science ("scientifically explicable") with the acts of human thinking and feeling."

Well, I think it's a common misconception that science is a process that is done devoid of feeling (thinking is required of course). In fact, you have to ask what is the motivation of a scientist when doing research? I can't speak for anyone else so I'll speak for me.

My motivation are the feelings of awe I get when looking at things in the natural world, from a school of tiddlers in the stream to standing on the edge of the Grand Canyon. For myself, it endlessly fascinates and I've always been interested in how and why it works as it does, and how did it arrive at this state?

The thing I loved most was dinosaurs and fossils, since I was a wee chap on the beach at Lyme Regis and picked up my first belemnite. For one reason and another this hasn't been my career, but now I'm actively involved in palaeontological research on these wonderful animals. This feeling of delight and utter awe never leaves me, whether I'm out in the field or making progress when doing more experimental work. When I speak to colleagues it turns out they all feel the same; I remember going to my first conference and being over the moon to meet people who were as enthusiastic as I was about the subject.

So human feelings are massively important in research, and are as important to a scientist as they are to any follower of any religion. It's what motivates me, encourages me to try to understand the wider context for my work, and provides me with a deep sense of spiritual nourishment. I have the scientific method to ensure my objectivity and rigour are fully engaged when working.

Spiritual? Shurely shome mishtake? Well, no. Stand out in your back garden on a clear night and look up at the stars and realise you're made from the products of stars and you are the universe made conscious, you are those stars, planets and galaxies contemplating their own existence, their own nature. That's at the very least, nothing else. The most parsimonious explanation for our being able to consider our own origin. The more you reflect on this idea, the more profound and beautiful the world and the universe becomes, and the more precious every life is.

This is science and it is vast, wondrous and humbling, and it engages the emotions and feelings and this is why science exists.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 01:12 PM

Perfectly OK with me, Stu. That is why I wrote "objects of science", not to be confused with science as a human activity. If you want your God "scientifically explicable", you are actually reversing the relation. Shall we agree on "not in conflict with science"?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 01:59 PM

This is great.
I am amazed by Grishka's intelligence....the abusers look positively pedantic in comparison.

If people want a "god" it's nobody's business but their own.
I believe everyone has a "god", and this thread makes it pretty obvious what sort of "god" controls most of the contributers.

Religious ritual, to my mind, is a lot more than a chance to socialise; it has a power to inspire and give comfort to many of my believing friends....they retain a link to our primitive past that I am sorry to have lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket throwing up
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 02:14 PM

This god that controls most of the contributors...

Does he make nice soufflés per chance?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 02:23 PM

Not sticking up for you mate Conc any more Ake? He is obviously far more intelligent than anyone on here. Having 2 firsts from Oxford and all that.

One truism that you have come out with though. Religious rituals are indeed far more than a chance to socialise. They are used to subdue, steal and corrupt as well.

As for inspiration, well, I am inspired by a myriad of things. Like Stu I can see beauty and inspiration in nature, music, art and other people. Non of them having anything to do with religion. If you need god to inspire you, then I feel sorry for you because of what you are missing. Remember, I have had both and I know which one is best for me.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 03:24 PM

seems then stu, that the scientists that believe in creation are at a disadvantage ,being only able to offer specifics that are evidence against evolutionary ideas while not grasping the wide sweep of evidence that supports Darwin and those that followed him.
which evidence is only apparent to those who spend a lot of time reading up ,because it cant be evidenced otherwise, and which dissenting scientists miss, despite their scientific qualifications. irony intended!.

my "ludicrous" analogy was obviously not meant to be an exact comparison, but I think it makes the point.
ie- common traits/body plans is evidence for a common designer, just like man made machine with wheels and gears etc were designed and built by intelligent life. you present no reason why common descent should be a better explanation for the machinery of life forms.
the big gaps are acknowledged by most of you, but you all fall back on saying that we cant posit God.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 05:10 PM

I would prefer to discuss religion on the other thread and atheism/humanism here, but it seems hopeless to insist. Anyway, two remarks, mainly to akenaton:

It is not so easy to lose the link to the past and to one's fellow humans. Actually nobody can rightly claim one's personality to be based solely on science and ethics. The posters to this thread who suggest such a claim are perfect examples to the contrary.

We must explore whatever we have retained, negative feelings included. This idea of Freud (who was not religious) has its limits but is still valid in principle. When I hear "I find comfort in religion" or "I can forget the world when in church / Moonhenge / Younameit", I often suspect that the speaker is taking a shortcut and may thus be subject to exploitation as mentioned by Dave.

Now I am still waiting for comments on the BHA with its Vice President Dawkins. Take your time. While I do not object to being praised as intelligent, I prefer to learn news.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 05:48 PM

booooooooooooooooooooooooooooorrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiingggggggggggggggggggggg!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 09:24 PM

seems then stu, that the scientists that believe in creation are at a disadvantage

They certainly are at a disadvantage, pete. The disadvantage that they're at is that they're not scientists.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 07:46 AM

"If you want your God "scientifically explicable", you are actually reversing the relation."

Well, I don't want or not want a scientifically explicable god, I was thinking more along the lines of an intelligence that to us mere humans would be indistinguishable from what many would consider a god, so far beyond our comprehension might that being's powers be. What they would not be is supernatural in the traditional sense of the word.

"but I think it makes the point"

It doesn't, as it misses the point completely as it assumes the default position of there being a designer rather than a natural process.

"ie- common traits/body plans is evidence for a common designer"

Why? Tell me.

"the big gaps are acknowledged by most of you, but you all fall back on saying that we cant posit God."

You can't use gaps in our knowledge as evidence for the existence of god. You can posit the existence of god, but if you want to prove her existence scientifically then by all means do, but using scientific methods. Simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 12:55 PM

Stu. Interestingly, many people with a bent towards superstition tend to use the word god to describe what we don't know.

I don't have an issue with that. The problem of course is their reluctance to give up the term once something has been sufficiently revealed.

I suppose a scientist can have faith. They just don't let it interfere with their professional judgement. Many doctors have religious faith but wouldn't resort to prayer where clinical intervention would be appropriate.

But the term creationist science is, as you and the rest of the rational end of the human race know, an oxymoron.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,The artist formally known as concerened
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 01:07 PM

They are a bit of a disadvantage eh.shaw?..A bit like yourself and the rest of the smug posers and lathchicos like barnacle balls..wussget, stringjangles gnomyo et al.whrn it comes to brains

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 02:15 PM

keep your head in the sand, steve, if it makes you feel better.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,The artist formally known as concerened
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 02:26 PM

Just for the record..just what is a left wing Tory?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 02:32 PM

Still don't know what a 'bum inhabitant ginger cake' is. Guess I need 2 degrees for that.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 02:40 PM

Head in the sand, eh, big boy? Well lessee. You see a gap somewhere in the explanation of things. You look for more evidence, you develop better techniques for getting at that evidence, you go up countless demoralising blind alleys, you experiment and you honestly report your findings to your peers, who will fearlessly tear you to pieces, automatically assuming that you're completely wrong, unless you can convincingly demonstrate otherwise. We call that "science". So here's an alternative approach: you see a gap somewhere in the explanation of things. You do no work nor partake in any further investigation: instead, you come up with the most unlikely of all possible explanations. The more your explanation departs from human knowledge as far as we've acquired it, the more it is thoroughly counter-intuitive, and the more it breaks all the laws of nature, the better. That's what we call "religion". The big difference between these two approaches is that one involves hard work and possible humiliation, whereas the other involves calling yourself a "theologian" whereby you can pontificate with little challenge as your present your "ideas" to the collective flock of nodding dogs who have been commanded to agree. My head might be in the sand but yours is firmly and irremovably wedged up your arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 05:32 PM

'Concerened', can I just clarify something, please?

Do lathchicos have preference for barnacle balls or do they resemble them? And what IS a "bum inhabitant ginger cake"?

Those meds aren't working, are they?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 08:02 PM

Don't bother with him/her, Shimrod. He was faintly amusing but he's now getting a tad tedious. Like a kid telling the same joke over and over again. The boy/girl is a bit of a laugh but he/she is totally sans substance.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 11:59 PM

It's like a scab though, Messiah S, you know you shouldn't but you can't help but pick it. Wonder what it will do when it eventually realises that nothing is anonymous as it thinks on the internet? It's surprising what you can get from an IP address if you put your mind to it :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 02:29 AM

Of course, Steve, you could say the same about pete - who will (probably) never be coaxed out of his cosy "God did it" hole whatever we say. Still, it's a good exercise for prompting some of us to think about the nature of science and evidence and, for that matter, religious belief. I can't resist taking another shot at it:

pete:

1. God may exist but YOU have no evidence for His existence.

2. Your assertion that God created the world, and all living things, in 7 days is highly unlikely and you have no evidence that he did any such thing - apart from biblical accounts - which are probably metaphorical.

3. If you insist that God is the creator then you have to answer the questions: Who or what created God and what materials is God made out of? If you insist that God is ineffable, then we are not arguing on equal terms - you have removed yourself from the debate.

4. Your passionate belief in something doesn't, necessarily, make it probable and your disbelief in something doesn't make it improbable.

5. You cannot insert God or the Bible into what, you perceive to be, the gaps in the ever-changing and evolving scientific account of the origins of living things, our planet and the wider Universe.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 03:27 AM

And you know, despite all that, I put pete in the category "Christian. " The others just think it fashionable to say they are. Creationism if taught to children may well be dangerous and fuck with their minds, making it difficult for them to rationalise concepts in the future, but pete tries to come to terms in his own, albeit disingenuous way to marry up science with his belief.

And that is the difference between him and the myriad boutique Christians posting all over mudcat.org at present. He believes whilst they toy with a word called belief.

I wouldn't mind. Live and let live. But the buggers want to interfere with the lives of normal rational people and sanctimonious hypocrisy isn't on my list of things to take into consideration when deciding how to approach issues.

Obviously, I'm just not clever enough to understand.   

Thank fuck for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 05:06 AM

Those who willfully refuse to learn (or even to read anything that does not fit their preformed ideas) will rarely understand, regardless of their mental capacities. If they want to speak on behalf of others, they will hardly be convincing.

I wonder why they take the trouble to type their statements to Mudcat again and again. Pete may hope to be rewarded in Heaven for his staunchness, but what do those atheists hope, who do not really strive to save anybody else either? It must amount to "onanism", as discussed earlier. At least some of your statements are interesting for readers who do want to learn.

Good fun and entertainment, once a Mudcat stronghold, is not to be found here at all. Even the trolls are lame and impotent. Successful trolling requires some understanding of what is going on; claiming Oxford degrees is pointless if nobody can be expected to even consider believing it.

Has anybody looked at the BHA site, or the "Dawkins foundation", or other atheist organizations? What is your impression of them? Should atheists unite to fight superstition?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 06:15 AM

Should atheists unite to fight superstition?

Grishka, you keep going on about this. Have you not read the many responses already addressing it? It boils down to "no'. The whole concept of this thread is 'militant atheism' and time and time again it has been pointed out that this is a ludicrous concept. It is a ruse by the god-botherers to tar atheists with the same brush as their own radical brethren who they are embarrassed about. It goes like this - "Yes we, know that the fundamentalists kill, maim, lie, cheat and are generally unpleasant but atheists are just as bad." They are not. Atheists, in my experience, are far less likely to attack believers than the other way round.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 06:53 AM

Normal decent rational people shouldn't have to understand yet God botherers want to influence them.

What don't I understand? The difference between believing and claiming to have belief for starters. The ability to mumble amen when a vicar talks of God creating and looking after us, and then claim it is all symbolic. Then insist on upholding laws concerning Sunday opening of shops.   I don't recall church bodies asking politicians to repeal the medieval blasphemy laws for that matter. Rational people got it struck down by legal precedent.

In the final analysis, it may be polite but certainly isn't useful to discuss whether the moon landings happened with someone who reckons they didn't. So why do we have to respect delusional fantasy just because our ancestors did? If someone starts a conversation with the idea that there is a God and his angels shagged a carpenter's wife and the child could do magic tricks and didn't really die when they crucified him etc etc.   

We are not talking at the same level. The superstition involved means I cannot have a rational argument with irrational people.

Hence these threads can never achieve consensus.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 07:08 AM

Dave, if "the fundamentalists kill, maim, lie, cheat and are generally unpleasant" as opposed to atheists, why don't you feel it a good idea to fight, if not them, then their superstitions?

Pay them for their rituals to expose them as corrupt? Would not work, even if it were intended seriously.

Those who cannot think in other terms than "agendas" will learn nothing and thus rend their own agenda a disservice. Who considers the BHA silly but refrains from telling us for fear of advancing the opposing agenda, achieves exactly what s/he fears. Conversely, saying "they are silly and do not represent atheism as I understand it", and giving additional information and reasons, would score a goal.

My own opinion is that the BHA and similar organizations do address an existing problem and are thus not silly a priori. Since you, Dave, do not seem to see such a problem at all, you cannot say whether the BHA solves it.

Stringsinger? Steve? ...?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 07:31 AM

"Pete may hope to be rewarded in Heaven for his staunchness, but what do those atheists hope, who do not really strive to save anybody else either? It must amount to "onanism", as discussed earlier."

It isn't onanistic, it's a chance to really think about how, as scientists we can deal with blind faith and the blinkers it can put on people. As I said earlier, Pete is a good teacher as his stonewalling of any meaningful discussion is a typical creationist ploy to divert a discussion from the one thing that challenges their world view that they struggle to explain: facts.

Their cherry picking is immensely frustrating, but I for one hold out hope for their salvation from delusion and ignorance. There are plenty of people of faith in all walks of life that are not on board with a literal interpretation of the bible, and who are not afraid to ask awkward questions of their faith (as we should of science); it would be interesting to have these people in on these discussions, but the literalists scare them off I guess.

This is important because there now large numbers of people who take the bible literally, and they are now affecting how politicians legislate for education, climate change and science funding. These people despise blue sky research, are against progress or personal freedom and would impose their religious laws on all of us; how long before they call for stoning to be re-introduced for some crimes?

So discussing these matters is vital, before we are back in the dark ages.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 08:07 AM

if "the fundamentalists kill, maim, lie, cheat and are generally unpleasant" as opposed to atheists, why don't you feel it a good idea to fight

Simply because nothing good was ever achieved by fighting. Stand up to them, yes, kill, main, lie and cheat, no.

Who considers the BHA silly but refrains from telling us for fear of advancing the opposing agenda

Sorry, fallacious argument. It is based on the old 'for me or against me' principle. There are other options. Neither for nor against either for example or not being bothered what rituals either religions or humanists use as long as they don't affect me!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 08:11 AM

...going back to an analogy that Musket has used. I am neither for not against stamp collecting either but if a stamp collector was to tell me I must worship triangular 3c stamps from Papua, New Guinea, I would tell him where to get off.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 08:14 AM

Musket, we need not achieve a consensus, not even a compromise.

So why do we have to respect delusional fantasy just because our ancestors did?

You do not, as far as I am concerned. Many of us feel the need to relate to their genetic and cultural ancestors and peers, and suffer from the problems encountered.

Since you ask me:

Respect others as you want to be respected. Criticise what you deem needing criticism, but do not confuse distinct notions (church, religion, ethics/morality, clergy, theology, religious culture, group dynamics in English villages, ...). Above all, understand best you can your own emotions and other human conditions, then your fellow humans'. Read influential and typical writings and try to grasp their ideas and motives, whether or not you consider adopting them.

If you reply to any message in a public forum, make a reasonable effort to understand its sense and intention; ask if necessary. If you shun that, or are unable due to alcohol consumption or other obstacles, don't reply. Always be aware that any "real person" who knows your name can google you at Mudcat.

Do it for yourself, though most Mudcatters will be pleased as well. You grossly overestimate your current entertainment effect (judging from what you wrote on the "97%" thread).

You write that you value traditions, expecially folksongs. There are traditions of various degrees of meaningfulness, but even the most trite ones (such as Santa Claus) are something else than delusional fantasy. Think.—

Stu, I was not suggesting that this thread as such is completely pointless, otherwise I would not post at all. However, if you read the thread title, you can be accused of dodging as well. Recently we had a short thread about Biblical mythology, a better place for such discussions.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 09:48 AM

Grishka, knock it off, will you? Let the bloody thread do what the bloody thread wants to do. You are currently coming across as a pompous half-policeman.

And pete must be enjoying this current "at least he's a genuine guy" bunch of accolades. Very nice, but just remember two things: first, he doesn't listen to a word any of us say, and second, if his ilk get anything like close to become the religious default of this world they would spread misery and ignorance as we've rarely seen it before. Genuine adherents are one thing. Genuine adherents with one-track minds and severe tunnel vision are far less desirable.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 12:09 PM

Don't worry Steve. pete must still think I'm a twat even though I am giving him a back handed compliment.

Grishka. In analysing my contribution you either seek to drag out earnest debate or you are lecturing me. Neither will get you anywhere I'm afraid. For starters I use a silly nickname for a reason. Sure, everybody knows its Mather doing the typing and those who know Mather are pissing themselves laughing. Mather is too for that matter but I digress.

It is the concept "as a Christian" that gets me. Nothing else. Live and let live. I am presently installing some equipment I donated to a local church for that matter. But people who wear their Christian credentials in order to influence get my goat. In fact, I'll probably tether it to Keith's car if I get a chance.

Just think on this. If you detect any vitriol, any stereotyping of group delusion, then just remember it is reaction not pro action. Strong acid needs strong alkali if you are ever going to neutralise its corrosive effects.

Have you noticed how you always run out of nails on a Sunday just as B&Q are shutting as per religious law?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 02:00 PM

I bet Jesus wished they'd run out by Thursday night.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 02:25 PM

Steve (18 Oct 13 - 09:48 AM), the thread may do what it pleases, and so may you and I.

Pete probably feels glorious like a heroic martyr (Jack wrote somewhere that he turns the other cheek in imitatio Christi), without suffering any real damage. You, Musket, and others appreciate him as a perfect specimen, easy to make a mockery of. What a happy company; congratulations!

Musket, the problem is that so few people are likely to feel well entertained - actually Dave may be the only one. The two of you, and other posters, cannot hide their very own absolutely serious emotional problems, and the result is not funny, just incongruous. You are often very frank about your personal matters though, which is sometimes truly interesting.

You asked for my opinion, you read it; no further issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 03:17 PM

Possibly.

But there again.

I could be talking bollocks.

Not easy speaking on the level with people who invite their imaginary friend to the debate. I did say something very personal on another thread a while ago to flush out our resident hate monger. I genuinely can't remember if I was being truthful or not though.

Jerk the Sea cadet says I think it is okay to lie to Christians.

In the language he would understand,






Go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 03:23 PM

shimrod- I don't suppose you are going to pull yourself out of your - it did itself- hole, either.
there is no evidence for an insufficient nothingness producing anything, but that is your faith position.
I posit that elementary logic tells us that anything that is made must have a sufficient cause.
we can discuss who and of what nature such cause is, after you grant the obvious, most reasonable solution. its a dead end till then.

steve- you are the one with head in sand because like it or not the scientists I refer to are creationists- are scientists.

stu- dunno how you define cherry picking, but if you mean questions that darwinists have no answers for,- guilty as charged.
and if you want a society that disparages the bible you could try north korea or communist china.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 06:14 PM

No, pete, you can't imagine something that exists not having a maker.

If I have faith in anything, I have faith in the scientific method. I also have faith that there's no such thing as absolute truth.

Right, let's stop fucking about and cut to the chase. This nonsense that you spout doesn't come from mainstream Christianity (deluded though I believe that to be) but rather it comes from North American religious fundamentalists - most of whom are right wing politically. These are very dangerous people and you have been brainwashed by them. Get yourself de-programmed, pete - you owe it to yourself!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 06:45 PM

The two of you, and other posters, cannot hide their very own absolutely serious emotional problems

Ahhhh - Got it now. Someone who has read a psychology book and thinks they have deep personal insights into others psyches by reading a few lines posted on internet forums.

Don't worry, Grishka. You are not the first. You will not be the last. You may be the daftest though :-)

What is the Russian connection, BTW - You probably missed the earlier thread but I am part Russian myself

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 08:11 PM

The two of you, and other posters, cannot hide their very own absolutely serious emotional problems

Ah yes, how many times have we seen this sort of thing born of the frustration of losing arguments: The "you need help/have you checked your medications/post again when you're sober" syndrome, addressed to people you don't know. This unwise comment marks you out as nothing more than a twit.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 03:15 AM

I do wish you'd learn to spell Co Messiah Steve.

The word is twat, not twit.

I love being analysed. Really do. Some daft HR bod got it made fashionable to have people in senior management analysed. An industry for quacks such as Myers Briggs and the rest. The real me is a doer apparently with low empathy levels. Strange considering my choice of semi retirement gig but there you go.

So having the odd God botherer preach at me about some jokes I seem to be (inadvertently on my part) telling and only brother Gnome laughing. ....

Oh by the way Grishka. I don't think pete is the perfect specimen. I think him deluded. But I also note he is the only one who doesn't wear his religion as a fashion accessory. I may dismiss him for his take on life but not for any hypocrisy.   Can't say that about everyone who introduces their imaginary friend to the debate. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 05:20 AM

On the subject of jokes, I still smile on remembering an old cartoon in a daily paper, which depicted two lines of people, one containing "believers" of all sorts were being admitted through the "Pearly Gates" into the kingdom of heaven, while the members of the other line which included atheists, agnostics, bankers, etc, were being gleefully forked down into a fiery hell by two little red horned demons.

In the Christian line one pious fellow turns to another and remarks,
"Don't look so bloody smug now, do they?....the bastards!"   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 07:06 AM

Of course I anticipated this kind of reaction, since there have been similar statements before. Therefore, I chose my words carefully.

Someone who has read a psychology book and thinks they have deep personal insights into others psyches by reading a few lines posted on internet forums.

It does not take deep or even shallow personal insights into others' psyches to see that your messages are strongly emotional in a way that cannot be explained with the course of the discussion. I cannot say what is actually wrong with any one you, and it is none of my business.

frustration of losing arguments

Which arguments exactly are you talking about, that I tried to win but lost to your superior reasoning, Steve?

some jokes I seem to be (inadvertently on my part) telling and only brother Gnome laughing

Musket, it was you who wrote that your postings were meant for raising laughter. In another thread, you claimed to be among those who "get to populate the BS section". I would not bet on that, but again, my intention is not to complain, just to answer questions. Also, I cannot analyze whole persons, just single statements like the ones you made about your appreciation of CofE ceremonies - interesting even if exaggerated or just made "for a laugh". In fact there are many people whom I have met countless times and still do not know why they are the way they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 08:14 AM

It's mildly amusing to see the Two Messiahs and their Henchgnome ganging up on a new victim like the schoolyard bullies they are.

Steve Shaw

Gosh, I go away for a day to climb Dunkery Beacon to visit the site (on what would have been his birthday) where my wonderful father-in-law's ashes were scattered, and what do I find? Why, Snailie Boy/Girl (I knew a girl called Bryan once - a bit dodgy, but hey ho) is still having a go about me and my evolution-is-true truth! Now listen up, trail-of-slime. Here's chapter and verse, you bloody lousy stalker you.

I must admit that, more in exasperation than anger, I did once call Steve Shaw a Muppet when he had come out with something exceptionally stupid.

Bit busy at the moment, more later.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 08:26 AM

""In fact there are many people whom I have met countless times and still do not know why they are the way they are.""

Or more likely the way you perceive them to be,....which may quite possibly be nowhere near to reality!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket shaking his head
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 08:27 AM

Christ. I bet you're fun to have to sit next to at a dinner party.

Not sure I ever said I only posted to crack a joke? I may have said that some people deserve no better than others taking the piss out of them, and I gladly supply that service, although whether it is funny or not is highly subjective.

On your final point, I am sure there are people you have met countless times who haven't got you weighed up either.

I don't appreciate CofE ceremonies. I just get nostalgic for tradition and part of my community tradition has been that weddings, funerals and christening are things you book a church for and enjoy it. I enjoyed a Buddhist monk blessing me at a temple in Thailand last week, still got the armband on in fact. Doesn't mean I have any understanding or curiosity over Buddhism. It just means respecting the tradition and making an old dude feel he was being useful. (The 2000B donation may have been more useful, but I digress.)

If I booked a church and it was, as in the case of a christening I went to last year, a modern building with a vicar in a Casual flowery shirt wanting everybody to call him by his first name, drums, guitars and weird beards crying thank you to Jesus every time he opened his mouth, and so called hymns that just chanted "Love Him!" And not a bit of Wesley in it.... Well that's not the church I would be willing to book as it has no tradition or relevance for what I want. The parents were regulars there and so for them, it meant something, but there again, they were Christians so of course it did.

Interestingly, on the wireless this morning there was a story where some magistrates have got together to petition the justice secretary to stop using swearing on the bible (or Q'ran or whatever) when giving evidence as people should be encouraged to be truthful for truth's sake. Interesting discussion, especially the spokesman for some Christian think tank who said it is a non debate as Christians wouldn't recognise the sanctity of the court without it.

Wow... I'm not stupid enough to see him speaking for Christians but you either recognise the sanctity of a court or be in contempt of it, with the resultant criminal sentence. He was giving "Christians" a bad name. But there again, so many flavours, choices, get out clauses and denials that the term Christian is meaningless anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 09:07 AM

Which arguments exactly are you talking about, that I tried to win but lost to your superior reasoning, Steve?

None. You don't lose arguments to my superior reasoning (which is what I have not got), but to your own silly wallowing in the profoundly inferior.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 09:20 AM

I have faith without religion, and for what seems to me a very good reason.

The Deity I believe in is the same one that Christians, Muslims and any other sects, cults or congregations believe in.

Omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient, I can communicate at any time, at any place, and in any manner I choose.

Given those facts, I should be getting flak from both sides of the argument, but while religious types regularly knock upon my door with a view to conversion, I have yet to receive a visit fom an Atheist.

Nobody has ever given me a cogent, credible reason for adding a religion to this scenario, it simply isn't relevant to my faith.

I treat people in the way that I would wish to be treated (with occasional lapses), not because it was drummed into me by a priest, Rabbi or Imam, but because I don't relish the idea of making enemies.

Empathy and Charity are common sense concepts which are not the sole province of the religious.

By organising a series of musical events, I helped to raise about £4000 toward needed repairs to a local church steeple.

I did so, not because it meant anything to me per se, but because my best friend is a member of that community and it means something to him, and because it also houses a community centre used by over 600 local people every week.

I don't seek to convert anybody and I am likely to give short shrift to anybody who wishes to convert me, or to interfere in the running of this country.

If priests want to engage in politics, they should stand for election. Otherwise they should stick to the day job, and they should never, under any circumstances, be allowed to teach schoolchildren any other subject than religious education as a comparative subject.

Any religion so insecure in its faith that it will not allow its children to be informed of the existence of other faiths, should not teach in schools at all.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 09:32 AM

Not sure I ever said I only posted to crack a joke?

I understood your message:

Neither will get you anywhere I'm afraid. For starters I use a silly nickname for a reason. Sure, everybody knows its Mather doing the typing and those who know Mather are pissing themselves laughing. Mather is too for that matter but I digress.

to that effect ("meant for raising laughter", not necessarily "to crack a joke") - did I get it wrong?

Don (19 Oct 13 - 08:26 AM), I merely want to point out that I do not claim to analyze whole persons. I would not even subscribe to Snail's "schoolyard bullies", but I adhere to "serious emotional problems" (neither meant as an insult nor patronizing). Musket and Steve actually hinted about possible causes on other threads I read, and probably on more that I did not, but I would not bother to dwell on that. Musket will deny having been serious anyway.—

I am sure there are people you have met countless times who haven't got you weighed up either.

I hope so, because I like to say and write what people do not know in advance. Those who are not sure what to reply, are best advised simply to read carefully what I wrote, and ask what they do not understand. (In fact I have been caught pulling people's leg, but hopefully in a manner that is recognized as justifiable.)—

Ceremonies etc.: You opened a couple of new topics. Sorry, I cannot reply at the moment, but I am sure they will be back.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 10:51 AM

I bow to the master. I'm not in your league!

I'll never be able to take the piss again. I'm a bloody amateur, that's all I am. You teased me with a worm and spinner, then hooked me and pulled me in.

Congratulations.

Of course I deny getting serious. What do you think this is, Dimbleby style question time? It isn't even the pub. It's a thread on the interwebby thing that has Don being reasonable, You being weird, pete being pete, three of us trying to get the true religion off the ground, a harmonica player with a Gerrard fixation* and a gnome running round shouting Bollocks!

Now... What was it you are trying to analyse?



Don. Point taken. Although I don't think you would get flack from both sides. I doubt anyone has a problem with what people believe, it's what they use to influence others that gets my goat. I believe in Sheffield Wednesday. They are having a crap season, just for a change...., but try telling me they aren't the best team ever and I'll rip your arm off and beat you with the soggy end. May sound trivial compared to heavy issues such as the god concept, but the idea of faith in the face of evidence to the contrary does at least allow me to empathise with people who profess a religious angle to their makeup.

I'm sure Steve thinks similar every time his previous Liverpool get hammered.




* ok. Gerrard put some lovely passes through the other night and scored a captain's goal. If he isn't the squad captain next summer! I'll join the whingers.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 01:10 PM

From 'the other' thread about 'religion'......(it bears repeating)

Well, that's the problem with a LOT of people, who can't seem to get it straight....
'Religion' is man's way of reaching God....
So frantic is that attempt, that those same people seem to disregard God's way of reaching man!!..so they become blinded by man's 'attempts', and resent God, thinking that God has something to do with 'religion'!!!

Now, if God was trying to reach man...what would He want to 'fix'??
What would He want to convey??

How about overcoming death, with the message that, Love is the power that does that?
Anyone come to mind?

Oh no, not Him again....He's the one to whom 'religions' have done almost everything possible, to steer people AWAY from, just so THEY could be the answer!...and politically agenda driven morons, push for more government to keep us 'in line', because they fear that if Love could do that, they'd become irrelevant...and we certainly don't want the manipulators of people's lives to FEEL minimized, now do we???
So their control factor incorporates the fear of 'discomfort' or death,......but, shhh, don't tell them, but that has been overcome as well!!

No wonder they hate Him.....He's made them powerless....unless you 'believe' them!!!

So, which is 'the best one'??

Oh, and did I tell you.....HE has NOTHING to do with 'religion'!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,The artist formally known as concerened
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 01:19 PM

This thread is going from bad to worse.Not content with burbling some of the most half arsed bullshit I have ever read..shaw is now accusing someone else of being pompouse!!..
As well as these double standards he is now actually bawling and squawking about thread policemen...when he is one of tge worst offenders
Well I suppose we cant expect anything else from a tory..leftwing or no?
By the way..nobody has explained what a left wing tory..truth is you cant..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 03:00 PM

Concerned: "By the way..nobody has explained what a left wing tory..truth is you cant.."

Neither can they, and still have anything to do with 'Truth'!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 04:12 PM

so you believe in the scientific method do you, shimrod?.
observervable-repeatable-testable!?
so how do you apply that to the past?
evolutionism posits events and processes that do not meet that criteria.
what does meet that criteria is stuff like biogenesis, and everything that has a beginning having a sufficient cause.
that does not ,admittedly prove that cause is God, but it is certainly not inconsistent with that concept as presented in the bible.
your alternative just goes back to all out of nothing via no-one.

I don't know much about your political hang ups but you is way off track. this belief that God created round about 6000 yr ago has been the faith of the church and the plain reading of scripture as understood by Christians till the acceptance of Darwinism infiltrated some parts of the church in relatively recent history.
it is not a political position.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 05:06 PM

We've been over all of that, pete, and you know it. And all you've got to go on is your own intuition and some poetic metaphors in an old book.

Oh yes and the crazed ramblings of the Rev. Dr. Teaparty Fundamentalist - your very own right wing, redneck brainwasher!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 06:49 PM

Those who are not sure what to reply, are best advised simply to read carefully what I wrote, and ask what they do not understand.

You appear to be getting worse by the minute. The best advice is to read carefully what you write (but hurry up, as life is too short) and ignore it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 04:38 AM

Very welcome indeed, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket to Goofus
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 05:12 AM

My dear Goofus..

You must have been proud of your post. Proud enough to insert it in this thread in fact.

I know I am going to regret asking this, but in words a thick sod like me can understand, what is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 06:22 AM

""By the way..nobody has explained what a left wing tory..truth is you cant.. ""

I can't make up my mind whether you are just taking the piss, or are really the know nothing numbskull you appear to be from your stupid questions, so I'll treat you as the latter and use no long words.

No political party is a homogenised mass, and the Tory party is no exception.

I am a Tory on the left flank of the party, trying from the inside to mitigate the effect of the right wingers, so I suppose in the whole political spectrum, I would be described as a Centrist.

Within the party I would be called a left wing moderate.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 10:01 AM

Don't you just get a wee bit lonely sometimes Don?
Sitting on your "left flank" I mean.

Attaching a label is pointless, I think we all know pretty well how we stand politically and socially

There can be much common ground socially; as a political socialist I respect the social values of conservatism......but politically we are chalk and cheese.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 10:55 AM

yes, shimrod , I know we been over this many times before, but you keep asking, and not accepting my answer. and not producing answers to my questions
why not just admit that you wont believe, or give any credence to the concept even, but that you aint got no better answer ?.
and what has rednecks and political teaparties got to do with an English Christian ?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 12:29 PM

I think you'll find, pete, that Stu has given you some very detailed answers to your questions over the last couple of weeks. But, in a nutshell, you can do 'experiments' on the past by examining old material.

As for your question about rednecks etc. you know, as well as I do, that most of the claptrap about 'creationism' originates in N. America. Basically, certain N. American Christian fundamentalists, who would like to impose their religious fanaticism on their fellow Americans, and the rest of the world if possible, have decided that modern science represents a threat to their ambitions. Any sane person, exposed to the rigour and rationality of modern science, is going to soon realise that a literal interpretation of the Bible is complete balderdash. The fundamentalists know this and hence see science as a threat to their ambitions and even their local power bases. They have thus created the oxymoronic 'discipline' of "creationist science" in a farcical - and basically highly irrational - attempt to hold back the tide!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 01:09 PM

It does not take deep or even shallow personal insights into others' psyches to see that your messages are strongly emotional in a way that cannot be explained with the course of the discussion. I cannot say what is actually wrong with any one you, and it is none of my business.

Excuse me a minute.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I can tell you exactly what is wrong with me, Tavarich. I don't like unqualified idiots trying to psycho-analyse me. How do I know you are unqualified? Well, anyone with any real credentials would stay away from here for a start. And not try spot diagnosis.

Did you ever see an old carry on film? 2 junior doctors trying a bit of spot diagnosis with a man walking, very carefully, across the emergency department floor.

First doctor: I think he has a slipped disk.
Second doctor: I think he has haemorrhoids.
Patient: You thought I had a slipped disk. You were wrong. You thought I had haemorrhoids. You were wrong. I thought I was going to break wind. I was wrong.

Try your psychobabble on someone else. It stinks just as bad as the above patient.


Oh, and

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Snail. Forget the above. I will break the habit of a lifetime and try a bit of spot diagnosis on you. You must be really insecure if you want to score points at the cost of making you look a fool. Sorry to say that you have succeeded on all fronts. You win. Carry on.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 01:55 PM

Socialist {noun} Person who believes in demonstrable equality.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 03:02 PM

BTW -

Snail, 15 Oct 13 - 04:38 PM Dave, until a few hours ago I had been completely ignoring you on Mudcat, a policy that has served me well for a long time. It's good to be reminded why.

Snail 19 Oct 13 - 08:14 AM It's mildly amusing to see the Two Messiahs and their Henchgnome ganging up on a new victim like the schoolyard bullies they are.

What happened in the few days between these two comments?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 06:42 PM

What happened in the few days between these two comments?

It's slime mould season, that's what. Two luvly patches on my front lawn already. He'll be out there cleaning up, far too busy to post.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket musing (the tablets don't work)
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 03:14 AM

I cant see what the problem is. Christians want to feel persecuted don't they? Mind you, I was never any good at the school yard bully bit. In fact, although I was always a tall lad, I was soft as shite, until once when I had to defend myself. Then ended up with a bobby coming round to the house to "have a word" with my Mum.

Anyway, my Brian resembling slime inducing slug me lad... If victims stop posting, don't we reserve the right to find new victims? After all, how can you be a school yard bully without the fat kid with a satchel full of sweeties at your beck and call?







Oh, just noticed the bit about respecting the social values of conservatism. Wow....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 04:37 AM

I wrote a lengthy reply to Pete's comments about wanting to live in China or North Korea, but it seems to have been lost in the ether.

Can you answer a couple of simple questions Pete?

Do you believe everything in the bible is literally the word of god?

If so, do you take all that is written in there literally, on face value and without question?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 04:59 AM

I am finding it increasingly apparent, not just on here but on all social media, that if someone finds themselves in an argument that they cannot then get out of sensibly they begin to scream 'bully!'. We have already been accused of being mentally unstable. Now 'schoolyard bullies'. Who is going to make the full set and cast the first accusation of Naziism? I wish they would do it quickly so Mr Godwin can come along and close the discussion.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 05:10 AM

Mind you brother Gnome. This type of thread is based on getting the name calling in early. As a topic thread in fact. ..

Militant atheist. I ask you. .......

Any nails left?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 05:39 AM

Aye, spotted that, Messiah M. Seems to be a bit of a pattern developing on here. People start controversial threads and then complain like buggery when someone disagrees with them. Can't remember what it is called, apart from being an arsehole. Something like passive/aggressive or bullying by playing victim? I am sure some of the barrack room psychologists will let us know :-)

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 06:46 AM

So shaw, you are part of milliblands ginger pussy fence sitting party are you? mind I should have known that.

Dont even dare tell me you are a Tory?partr tory; at least they know where they are going!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 07:42 AM

Is a 'Tory?partr tory' anything like a bum inhabitant ginger cake? I am also quite intrigued by the concept of a ginger pussy fence but would prefer not to know more really...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 09:32 AM

Yes, Dave, let's draw a veil over "ginger pussy fences"!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 09:41 AM

I think that expression makes it even worse, Shimrod :-) If that was intended, well done and if not, very well done!

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 01:28 PM

Just covering the offending fences for the sake of decency, Dave!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 02:58 PM

Which ever way you cut the cake, bum, inhabitant, fence, pussy on which the fraud shaw sits......does not alter the fact that he has little to accuse anyone of being pompous, thick, numbskull, and his usual delightful patronising and offensive epithets.

But there again, like all of his fence sitting, centrist ilk he thinks by adopting his usual bullying tone he can cover up his obvious shortcomings...alkenton is wrong about him being lonely; it is a sad fact that there are thousand of class traitors like him around in this country.. I just wish they would get of their smug arses and either do something positive, or shut up and join a sewing bee or a bean counting club...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 03:08 PM

I would never sit on a ginger pussy, but vice versa...mmm...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 03:44 PM

Is that a centrist remark phony...? I'll bet you were up all night thinking up that one..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 03:53 PM

no shimrod, you can not experiment on the past. you can only interpret the data. there are numerous examples of changing analysis of such data by evolutionists. that's a good thing ,you will say, but it also demonstrates that origins research is far from certain, unlike proper science where repeatable, testable ,observation can give accurate conclusions.
and you are not listening- Christians have been creationists before the US was ever thought about.
again, it is not a political statement.
and you are very confident that stu can answer what you cant?!.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 04:10 PM

I'll bet you were up all night thinking up that one..

Well, from

Date: 22 Oct 13 - 02:58 PM

to

Date: 22 Oct 13 - 03:08 PM at least!

I can see that your double first must have been in Mathematics and Logic, Conc my old pal. Or did you also include English?

Pete, as you seem to be having difficulty with Stu's questions I will ask them again.

Do you believe everything in the bible is literally the word of god?

If so, do you take all that is written in there literally, on face value and without question?

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 04:48 PM

"Socialist {noun} Person who believes in demonstrable equality."
Yes, among other things.

Sitting back and watching a sector of society succumb to the effects of an epidemic of sexual disease is not "equality" Ian, it is as cold and unfeeling as rabid Capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 05:05 PM

Speak of the devil...

Forcing a whole section of society to undergo invasive medical procedures on the basis of their sexual proclivity is also wrong, Ake, but you cannot seem to see that. Nor can you see that bringing up the same point at every opportunity, regardless of the thread content, shows that you are somewhat fixated on gay men.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 05:50 PM

pete, for the umpteemillionth time, there will ALWAYS be conflicting interpretations of the data because REAL scientists don't deal in absolute certainties. Within the various relevant fields of study there are large areas of consensus though.

On the other hand, religious fusndamentalists - like you and your American chums - know the answers already. You only need to do "research" because the findings of modern science conflict utterly with the Biblical account of 'creation'- and you are desperate to refute those findings.

Of course people in the past believed the biblical account - because they knew no better - trouble is, you and your American fundamentalist chums are still stuck back there in the middle ages!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 05:53 PM

Well spotted, Dave! I was just about to say that it took me about two minutes...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 06:19 PM

a "REAL" scientist in your book is someone who agrees with you!
join steve in the head in the sand club.

I hesitate slightly to answer your question ,stu, as I suspect we may not be understanding each other as to what "literally" means when we talk about the bible being Gods word. theres no point in me expanding on that now as it will be easier to do that when I know where this is leading.
btw- I try to do shorter posts after some longer ones vanishing somewhere.- a bit frustrating isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 06:57 PM

It's really amusing to hear head-up-his-own-massive-unwashed-chocolate-covered-creationist-botty-pete rattle on about how "you can't experiment on the past". I suppose he means you can't obtain scientific evidence except from the here-and-now. Well, a coupla things, you unintelligent-designer nitwit (by the way, pete, as an aside, why did God put the recreation area right next to the sewage outfall...?). First, good science is predicated on far more than mere experimental results. By constantly referring to this you are doing no more than demonstrating your already well-known lamentable pig-ignorance. Secondly, if this is the view you really hold, pray tell us what evidence you have from the past that so convinces you that a literal interpretation of the tendentious rantings of a bunch of desert-dwellers from a few thousand years ago is so valid. At least we scientific types um and ah and demur and fret and cast doubt about our gaps in evidence. You don't. You're so bloody sure of yourself, even though you're a lazy bugger who relies one hundred percent on received unwisdom, that you constantly diss those who have the honesty and neutrality and industriousness to put in the hard work of actually trying to find out about stuff. Keep your head up your bottom, pete. You can try talking from there and your God may tell you that you can, but at least that way we won't have to hear you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 03:10 AM

A REAL scientist probably doesn't give a shit about what I believe or don't believe. Nevertheless, a REAL scientists doesn't start by being absolutely certain about the answer to the question. Neither does a REAL scientist spend her time trying to poke holes in the arguments of people who don't share her absolute certainties. And finally, a REAL scientist doesn't spend her time trying to insert God or the Bible into the supposed gaps.

"I suspect we may not be understanding each other as to what "literally" means when we talk about the bible being Gods word."

Meaningless waffle, pete! Answer the f**ing question!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 03:25 AM

I offer post 600 as a sacrifice, to whom (Whom?)it may concern.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 03:47 AM

we may not be understanding each other as to what "literally" means

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

Which is truer? Alice through the looking glass or the bible. I know which my money is on.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket smiling
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 04:33 AM

Did you research that before saying conclusively it is 600 Keith?

I am beginning to get this religion lark. Keith wading in brought it home to me.

On the one hand we have pete who ignores any evidence or supposition that conflicts with the bible. On the other hand we have Keith who ignores any evidence or supposition that conflicts with Keith. Both carry out their task in the name of Christianity. Problem is, neither would recognise each other's. (I still reckon pete gets the role of religion more than Keith. That the role is superfluous in the c21 is neither here nor there.)

I reckon I could latch onto this religion lark after all. Mind you, to be fair, it isn't a Christian trait nor indeed a religious trait. Akenhateon claims to be neither yet subjective interpretation of data to support a view that could never be respected nor believed is his party piece.

Ok.. Back to the drawing board.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 05:54 AM

Sigh........................ I see the fraud shaw is now plagiarising my method of complimenting the pseuds on this site....away, you centrist, ginger pussy, cake-eating telegraph reading copyist - and you call me..? Mind he unlike me he is still talking shite.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 06:39 AM

" ...you centrist, ginger pussy, cake-eating telegraph reading copyist ... "

Calling someone a "cake-eating telegraph reading copyist" is really beyond the pale! Shame on you, 'concerened'! You know you really are a bum inhabitant ginger cake (it takes one to know one)!!

"Mind he unlike me he is still talking shite."

Uuuuummmm??!! I think that you might like to review that sentence, 'concerened', and adjust your conclusion accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket wondering
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 07:20 AM

Would that be geographically anywhere near the ginger nuts?

Rather partial to ginger nuts. Mrs Musket occasionally makes a batch. Far better than the McVities version, although my dog eats either just as quickly if you leave them in mouth reach. Whilst counting your fingers, it's your fault for waving them within three miles of a greyhound cum thief.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 08:01 AM

"theres no point in me expanding on that now as it will be easier to do that when I know where this is leading."

Now that's not fair Pete; I've sat here and typed out detailed replies to the points you've raised in your emails in the spirit of debate, and you're totally ducking two questions I've asked you.

"you can not experiment on the past. you can only interpret the data. there are numerous examples of changing analysis of such data by evolutionists. that's a good thing ,you will say, but it also demonstrates that origins research is far from certain, unlike proper science where repeatable, testable ,observation can give accurate conclusions."

OK, lots wrong here. I really don't think you know what science is Pete. You can't experiment on the past by sticking a bit of it in a test tube and tipping gloop on it to see what happens, but experimental science is a far more complex activity than mixing stuff up in the lab.

It certainly is possible to test evolutionary theory, for example by close examination of the fossil record to see how species change over time and how speciation occurs. The debate about how this occurs is ongoing but the debate is vigorous (and fascinating) and based on excellent, repeatable, observable and testable science. Many disciplines are needed to make sense of the rock record but we've been at it for couple of hundred years now and a consensus is emerging. The idea that any of the natural and earth sciences are not 'proper science' is risible and without any foundation.

Data analysis will change over time. Science is not in stasis at any point in time and revisiting data with new techniques to test theories is fundamental to research. Just as it should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist forsmelly known as concerened
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 08:07 AM

You misplace two goddamn commas and the grammar police are at yer

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket baying at the moon
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 08:14 AM

Aye, and in your case, they have a green van and white coats.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 08:35 AM

You misplace two goddamn commas

Two, conc? Only two? I think you have already proved conclusively that you cannot write. You are going a long way towards proving you cannot count either.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 09:23 AM

Hope it's not a GINGER "greyhound cum thief", Musket!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 10:31 AM

No Scottish blood in him to my knowledge. Mind you, he was born in a racing kennels in Kilkenny. Mmmm... possible celtic throwback.

For the record he is black with white belly and tail end and a few flecks of white on his back, looking like he confused a pot of white paint with a ginger nut.

Regarding this thread. He summed up religion for me a few hundred posts back by trying to lick balls he no longer has.

Faith is a wondrous thing indeedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 01:42 PM

Just noticed on post dated 23 Oct 13 - 08:07 AM. You know, the one complaining of the grammar police.

,the artist forsmelly known as concerened

Freudian slip anyone?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 02:47 PM

What's a ginger pussy cake? Mmmm...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 03:40 PM

""So shaw, you are part of milliblands ginger pussy fence sitting party are you? mind I should have known that.""

All those fictitious degrees, qualifications and skills, and the prat can't even remember who he was trying to slag off.

What a prize berk!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 03:51 PM

ok stu, I did mean to explain a little more, but I was on my way out, though I did also wonder if a too quick answer would then require me to explain more fully, and I be charged with backpeddling.
I do believe the bible is Gods word to us. it was given in ancient times and in places needs interpreting, but not to the point of being unintelligible to the average person of any period.
the charge has been made that because it recounts immoral events [lots daughters has been cited a few times, for example] that this negates the book ,and speaks against its divine authorship.
rather it is a faithful account of unflattering wrongs of even it's heroes.
I,m sure much more could be said, but I will wait to see where it's leading.
I reckon that deep time and biological dogma is just as entrenched as the YEC position. I guess your position has an advantage in being so flexible, as every time a something overturns a previous supposed evidence of evolution, the story just gets adjusted and the evolutionists congratulate themselves on how nothing is fixed - except of course their commitment to deep,evolutionary time.
"fossil record..." to the Darwinist it is the evidence for evolution of creatures from bugs to biologists.
to the creationist, the order of burial, with sometimes creatures mixed together as to be expected by a massive upheaval.
same evidence!.
...risible...I note it seems fine to diss the research of scientists if they are creationist!
"..consensus is emerging.." appeal to authority- or to quote Michael cricton   "historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels, it is a way to avoid debate by claiming the matter is already settled.......in science consensus is irrelevant.what is relevant is reproducible results...."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 03:08 AM

"I do believe the bible is Gods word to us. it was given in ancient times and in places needs interpreting, but not to the point of being unintelligible to the average person of any period."

So you religious fundamentalists are not absolutely certain about what the Bible means then, pete? But I thought that the question of its meaning was "already settled"? I also think that your little diversion into the Bible's recounting of "immoral" events is an example of your muddled thinking. The Bible is either an accurate historical record or its not - whether the events it recounts are immoral or not is, surely, irrelevant(?)

I'm also not sure that the Michael "cricton" quote is relevant here either. The scientific concensus concerns such 'broad-brush' aspects of nature as the age of the Universe and its various components and the age of the Earth and the various stages of its history etc., etc. The details are subject to constant revision - but that's how science works - all scientists live with uncertainty all of the time. The broad-brush concensus is based on millions of sophisticated and painstaking observations, made by thousands of very clever and talented people, over a long period of time; it's not based on a bunch of religious fanatics sat in armchairs proclaiming that eveything that they read in an old book represents the absolute truth ... subject to "interpretation" of course!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist forsmelly known as concerened
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 08:41 AM

Smart enough to have you and the rest of the nomarks going, wizzjet you prize phony.

I know you are nobody's fool, but maybe somebody will adopt you.

Gold star for the other gullible buffoon gnomet for spotting the deliberate mistake.I would ask how old you are but I know you cant count that high.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 09:20 AM

Of course it was deliberate, Conc. What does puzzle me a little is how someone who has missed countless punctuation marks can get that down to 'a couple of commas' and then go on to say I cannot count! Your level of delusion appears to know no bounds and for that, I salute you. Well, I think it is a salute.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 11:16 AM

"fossil record..." to the Darwinist it is the evidence for evolution of creatures from bugs to biologists.

Well now, I'm-Mr-Pig-Ignorant-And-I'm-Bloody-Proud-Of-It, no it is not. Fossil evidence is just one piece of a huge jigsaw, a jigsaw that you would know about if only you'd ever bother to read "Origin". Even Darwin didn't know much about genetics and molecuar biology, but he knew a damn sight more than just the fossil record. Do continue to rattle out your uninformed drivel. I just try to make sure I haven't got a mouthful of coffee as I read your egregiously stupid posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 11:18 AM

"Darwin" not "even Darwin". Grr.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 12:13 PM

so who told you ,shimrod, that every detail in the bible was clearly understood?
yes I agree that the morality of the account in the historical record is not relevant. I only mentioned it as I seem to recall you or musket trying that one. glad we agree on that much.
I note that you counter my point about consensus not being a good argument ,by appeal to more consensus!
"...reproducible results......"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist forsmeltingly noun as concerend
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 12:26 PM

Tut! Tut! Gmonehead.....You occasionally stumble over the truth, but you quickly pick yourself up and carry on as if nothing happened..and you do know what you can do with your fingers?..that is if they haven't already joined your thumb.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 12:43 PM

So what sophisticated and painstaking observations have your oxymoronic 'creationist scientists' made then, pete? How have they added to the sum of human knowledge? You do realise, don't you, that in the scientific world (or any other world, for that matter)only considering (or inventing?) data that fits your pre-conceptions is completely dishonest? If a real scientist (as opposed to a 'creationist' pretend one) were to do that he/she would be drummed out of his/her professional society. Presumably, though, a 'creationist scientist' would get EXTRA prayers and Bible classes (yum!).

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 06:15 PM

Well, Conc. You have got me there. Once more your mighty intellect has me stumped. Just carry on imagining your wonderful wit and repartee has everyone on here enthralled. I wonder what we did without you.

BTW, just which college did you attend for your double first? I have grandchildren to educate and I need to make sure they do not fall into the same hole.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 06:16 PM

tell you what, shimrod. you tell me what benefit the evolutionary story has made to actual beneficial science, except to add a Darwinist gloss to what did not need Darwin at all.
you got awhile as I is away most of coming week.
you give me examples and I will offer instances of scientists believing in creation who have developed science.
in the meantime, I remind you that evolutionary belief has hindered science , by presupposing junk dna and vestigial organs, not to mention not bothering to examine Piltdown for 40 yr because of Darwinist bias.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 07:34 PM

so who told you ,shimrod, that every detail in the bible was clearly understood?

Hmm. Well, if not, how come it's possible for you to take it literally? Because you're a fool?


in the meantime, I remind you that evolutionary belief has hindered science , by presupposing junk dna and vestigial organs, not to mention not bothering to examine Piltdown for 40 yr because of Darwinist bias.

Have another cask of beer, dear boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 01:26 AM

I suppose you can believe in creationist nonsense and scientifically develop a new type of toothbrush. ...

The point pete misses, inadvertently or purposely, is that whilst many scientific discoveries have been by people with religious beliefs, although not just the Bible version of belief, it can also be said that their outcome may not have contradicted the superstition of the day.

Newton clung to absolute position rather than the relative position of existence that his own research was telling him. Didn't want to contradict Scripture but to be fair, his output didn't really have to. His calculations could exist in an imaginary god created world as described by the church.

Galileo however started to see the cracks and ended up arguing for his life. Literally. ....

Einstein threw a few crumbs in order to keep his Jewish credentials intact. The irony of his comments were wonderfully paid tribute to by Hawkins in the very last sentence of his brief history, knowing the mind of God.

God however didn't appear in the research nor conclusions of a single scientific advance. Never has and never shall.

Unless you accept the Saudi cleric as a scientist who said the other month that if women are allowed to drive cars they will fail in child birth. That's religious science in a nutshell. ........

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 03:03 AM

"God however didn't appear in the research nor conclusions of a single scientific advance. Never has and never shall."

That's the truth, Musket. And that's the real reason why the crazed fundamentalists so desperately attempt to refute the findings of modern science. Every new data point erodes the hold that religion has on the minds of the credulous and destroys any influence that the church has left. I suspect that the established church has known this for several generations but the fundamentalists can't accept it. The established church now knows, and generally accepts, its place in society whereas the megalomaniac fundamentalists just want MORE POWER and blame the lack of it on science.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 06:00 AM

"it was given in ancient times and in places needs interpreting"

Do you mean literally or philosophically? Are you saying we need to weed out some of the more distasteful bits (such as stoning for cussing your parents) as they are not relevant?

"I reckon that deep time and biological dogma is just as entrenched as the YEC position"

Wrong. Here's the thing: if as a scientist we are found to be wrong, we say "righto!", assimilate the new information and move on. That's science. Dogma is challenged (it invites itself to be challenged and scientists have little time for it). As researchers we are all prepared to admit we don't know it all, or have all the answers. We're learning and discovering the truth bit by bit.


"I remind you that evolutionary belief has hindered science , by presupposing junk dna and vestigial organs"

What? This isn't even a sentence let alone a cohesive argument. What have you got against vestigal organs?


"you tell me what benefit the evolutionary story has made to actual beneficial science"

Bloody hell. What is "beneficial science"? If you're asking what contribution the study of evolution has made to our lives then where to start? Of course, the study of evolution is carried out by any number of scientific disciplines, and some of these (such as molecular biology) feed back into many important areas, such as medicine and help us understand how (for example) the role of certain genes during the development of an embryo; this is a relly quite fascinating area to study, and it's worth reading up on.

Evolution itself tells us lots about how species react to various environmental factors, and they help us understand everything from biodiversity to trophic cascades, to extinction events (such as the one we as a race are causing now). This has relevance for areas such as conservation and the study of species populations.

From an economic point of view, palaeontology and geology are massively important. Who do you think finds the raw materials for the computer you're using, for the petrol that runs your car etc? Without a firm understanding of evolution geologists wouldn't be able to date the rocks they are examining, or correlate facies across wide areas of deposition as they often rely on zone fossils to orient themselves in the geological record.

So the idea that "evolutionary belief" has hindered science is, if I may put it rather bluntly, complete and utter bollocks, and a statement that is without any foundation. It's worth reminding you Pete that your belief in creation happening exactly as it says in the bible is an extremist view, and many scientists of faith are quite happy studying evolution.


"you give me examples and I will offer instances of scientists believing in creation who have developed science."

There y'go. Now let's see those examples.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 08:30 AM

Perhaps I'd better answer Steve Shaw's question before this thread drops off the bottom

Do tell us if you're not completely certain that evolution happens.

No, I am not completely certain that evolution happens because I take a scientific view of the world, not a pseudo-religious one. Science doesn't do "completely certain". I can't agree with "Evolution is true" because, as others on this thread have pointed out, science doesn't do absolute truth.

Part of the problem is that you are rather flexible in your use of the word evolution. Frequently you have used it interchangeably with Darwin's Theory of The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection while lambasting others (well, me) for doing the same. No real worry, everybody does that. "The Theory of Evolution" is generally taken as a shorthand for Darwin's theory.

You have also referred to it as a "concept". I think I'd go along with that.

Darwin refers to "species undergo modification, and that the existing forms of life are the descendants by true generation of pre-existing forms.". Sounds like a definition of "evolution" to me. (Does Darwin ever use the word?) It says nothing about the reasons for those modifications, just that it happens. Does that do it for you?
As best as I can understand, the point you are trying to make is that it is a natural phenomenon like the sun, moon or stars or gravity or, indeed, you having a shit. There for you to see if you care to look. The trouble is Darwin doesn't seem to agree. Here is the fuller context for that quote -

I will give here a brief sketch of the progress of opinion on the Origin of Species. Until recently the great majority of naturalists believed that species were immutable productions, and had been separately created. This view has been ably maintained by many authors. Some few naturalists, on the other hand, have believed that species undergo modification, and that the existing forms of life are the descendants by true generation of pre-existing forms.

(Opening lines of "AN HISTORICAL SKETCH". Page 53 in the Penguin Classics edition of Origin of Species.)

It seems that Darwin does not agree with you. It is not something obvious and, in the mid-nineteenth century, a new and revolutionary idea not widely held. He then spends several pages presenting the case, not from scientific logic but by quoting the works of others. This is not his idea, but the starting point for his theory which is an explanation of what drives that process - Natural Selection.

So, Steve, if you think you know better than Darwin, carry on shouting "Evolution is true!" to the rafters.

Now do go along and shove your philosophical carpings where the sun don't shine, dear boy.

Sigh. I really was hoping for some response from you to Stu's remarks a while ago -

what is important is understanding what science is and how it works, and you don't need to be a scientist to know that. You do have to get off your arse do some work though to familiarise yourself with the philosophies and methodologies that make 'science' what it is, and explains how it's come to be practiced as it is and how it changes with time.

By brushing aside "philosophical carpings", you are underming Stu's case against pete. Whose side are you on?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 10:22 AM

Most posters to this thread do not seem to be interested in science at all, but for casual readers who are, a little remark may not go amiss:

Evolution theory in its present form is based on genetics, discovered after Darwin's time. Its foundational theorems are not a bit worse established than any other branch of science. Such theorems are formulated and tested without reference to a particular time ("deep" or not), thus they can be applied to the past, the future, and other countries etc. with equal degree of certainty. In other words, if they do not apply to the past, they do not apply at all. (To make things even more complicated, the very notion of time has been modified in recent decades, but not in a way that affects paleontology.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 10:34 AM

The more we know about the origins of the universe the less we understand it.

As a species, we will be extinct long before anyone can prove or even comprehend the "creation".
Isn't it all a gigantic waste of time? Let people believe what they wish, they are as likely to be right as any scientist?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 11:30 AM

akenaton,

Isn't it all a gigantic waste of time?

Posting to Mudcat in order to convince the world is largely a waste of time. (There are other benefits, though.) Scientific research, including humanities and philosophy, and considering what to teach at schools, are among the best investments of time imaginable. Like any investment, we must not forget to harvest the results.

Let people believe what they wish, they are as likely to be right as any scientist?

We cannot prevent people from believing what they wish, but there are conflicts which need arguing. This thread - fortunately not really important - is an example of how it should not be done. If we define a scientist as someone who has passed an M.Sc. exam, this does not imply being "right" on any subject whatsoever - but dodging all studying does not help either.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket sans logic
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 12:56 PM

Grishka reckons nobody on this thread is interested in science. True, but don't include the odd science teacher and at least one physics PhD.

The more we know about the origins of the universe, the less Akenhateon understands it. Yep, can't argue with that.

Mind you, the shoe in for science tends to be when dismissing creationism and associated fantasy when reality is under discussion.

Although, as we see on the Christian persecution thread, point out attempts to put religion in a privileged position and you are ganged up on for being boorish.

Quite.

Science as a concept does help enlightenment in general, as well as the advancements in technology and understanding. And some of us, some not too far from this post in fact, would benefit from a dose of enlightenment, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 08:37 PM

The more we know about the origins of the universe the less we understand it.

Utterly brainless bollocks.

Now, Snailie One. Evolution happens. Are you a fool? I ask because only a fool would deny that black is black, that Beethoven wrote Beethoven's Fifth, that the Pope is a Catholic, that one-legged ducks swim in circles and that evolution happens. Do read my harmonica-swollen lips, dear boy/girl (I'm a little confused because not only do I know that snails ain't fussy about what gender they are but also that I've just come back from seeing Matthew Bourne's Swan Lake). The existence of evolution is no more science than is the existence of my left testicle (under threat if my wife ever reads this thread). Evolution existed for billions of years before the first sentient being ever recognised it as such. Science requires the workings of the human mind. The explanation of evolution, as articulated by said human mind, is where the science comes in. If you doubt that evolution takes place, do join pete and his brainless cohort in the silly corner. Otherwise, do try to make the distinction between self-evident reality (not science) and the human interpretation of it (science). Now Popper off and enjoy yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 06:02 AM

"Utterly brainless bollocks"?

OK......We are asked to believe that there was this big bang......?.....?.....?....not exactly convincing, is it?

But I would hesitate to label your beliefs as "utterly brainless bollocks. Do you think you could manage an apology Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket popping up here too
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 06:11 AM

If worms could apologise, we'd all go deaf from the noise.

Here, worm! Do you want to add Steve to the list you just put me on, asking moderators to let you spew your filth in peace?

Perhaps the moderators see reason as a moderator in its own right?

(He probably just read the hilarious article Stephen Fry referred to on the telly the other week, where an American Tea Party evangelist pointed out that the Big Bang is a conspiracy theory, as many cosmologists and astrophysicists are, wait for it..... Gay!)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 06:28 AM

I am sure you are quite incapable of apology under any circumstances Ian.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 08:09 AM

Thanks Grishka....You seem to be a bit of a philosopher yourself :0)

It's nice to talk to people who know how to conduct themselves in debate. I understand that this is an extremely complicated issue and that this thread is only a silly distraction.....I think that "faith" has like many other concepts, become "politicised", as can be observed by the rancour shown by some posters here.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 09:28 AM

The usual pearls of wisdom abounding again.

After nearly 1000 posts what have you collection of soot juggling frauds come up with?:

"The more we know about the origins of the universe the less we understand it"

Well get out my box of paints and colour me tickled pink.

I think you lot have pretty well proved that with your inane pseudo intellectual comments


On top of the usual buffoonery I see shaw is trying to cover his back and baffle? us all with his amusing attempt to be academic..aint you realised phony, no one is interested in your semi digested crap, away back to the thumb up bum game

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 11:03 AM

"OK......We are asked to believe that there was this big bang......?.....?.....?....not exactly convincing, is it?"

We are NOT asked to BELIEVE anything! As I understand it, a study of the cosmic microwave background radiation leads scientists to hypothesise that the Universe originated from a point source. Whether you think that that concept is credible or incredible is irrelevant - a 'Big Bang' is the best explanation so far.

You remind me of pete, Akenaton. He too confused uninformed 'belief' with scientific evidence and probability.

Be careful, "concerened", if Steve plays the "thumb up bum game" he might damage his "bum inhabitant ginger cake" - and you wouldn't want that on your conscience, would you?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 11:46 AM

"I am sure you are quite incapable of apology under any circumstances Ian."

I assume he means Musket.

Actually, the worm is wrong. I would apologise to any gay person who asked if Mudcat is a website worth looking at. Sure, it is, but the moderators don't censor homophobia and hate in the way UK law expects. Ok, the servers aren't in The UK, but all the same, I would worry if anybody from a whole set of society that is openly demonised on Mudcat happened to chance upon one of the more odious posts from one of the more odious specimen.

Mind you, in an effort to lighten up, I can put that slightly to one side and address Akenhateon's view of science.

{chortle} There comes a time when the only avenue left is to point and laugh.... Utterly brainless bollocks. Wish I'd have thought of that retort. Witty, perceptive, accurate and well aimed.

Being a co Messiah certainly allows you to weigh people up......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 04:18 PM

Different thread, same M.O. from Ian.

m: akenaton - PM
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 06:17 AM

I never really believed in "trolls" 'till you arrived here Ian, it is often used wrongly to label folks who's opinions do not fit in with the predominant views of the forum members.

Your incessant use of name calling and aggressive personal comments when you seem to have no interest in addressing the point under discussion, mark you down as the genuine article.

This behaviour persists on almost every message you post...against numerous members.....why you have not been kicked off these pages, or at least warned about your posting "style" is beyond me.
You are a wrecker of discussion(I think intentionally) and as such, you are a menace to this particular community.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist forsmeltingly noun as concerend
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 05:00 PM

here!here!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 05:56 PM

OK......We are asked to believe that there was this big bang......?.....?.....?....not exactly convincing, is it?

But I would hesitate to label your beliefs as "utterly brainless bollocks. Do you think you could manage an apology Steve?

Nobody's asking you to believe anything. I don't believe in the Big Bang. I seek out the science of the bloody thing, apply what limited intellect I possess to it, and come to a provisional conclusion. My provisional conclusion is that that there is a lot of convincing evidence for the Big Bang and very little evidence for any proposed alternative. Belief don't come into it. My convictions may well be bollocks but they are not brainless bollocks because, pathetic though my tiny brain may be, I have at least applied it to the conundrum in question. Which is a damn sight more than can be said for your utterly brainless, predigested, lame, cliche-ridden, useless, senseless and dismal statement that "the more we know about the origins of the universe the less we understand it". Do allow me to suggest a reconstruction, thus: "The more we know about the origins of the universe the more we understand it". There. Now I think you owe an apology. Not to me, for I give not a flying shite, but to the world in general for being such a complete arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 06:01 PM

here!here!!

There there!

Diddums!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 06:11 PM

I think he may have meant 'hear, hear' Messiah S but that fine education has let him down once again. Still, he is at least mixing in the right circles now.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 06:23 PM

Well Steve, I see you have assimilated some of the characteristics of your accomplice Ian....please except my condolences.

I have been reading and doing some online research into the origins of the universe and find the sheer enormity of the thing is beyond perception. Some scientists believe that the universe may go on for ever?.....how does one come to terms with such a concept; and more importantly what is the benefit to humanity...which will in all probability be extinct in a few hundred years, of pondering the imponderable?

At least "faith" is more closely related to how we live the remainder of our time on this planet and serves a useful purpose in providing a much needed moral and social compass to humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 07:01 PM

Moderators!!....Are you listening? Do you notice something about these threads? How some of us try to address the issues which come up during the discussion, while others concentrate on dishing out insults and personal attacks?

Jeri has admitted to being a moderator and someone has suggested that SRS is also one.....excuse me, but why are they not moderating?

Nigel has made the point about multiple guest names, many others have complained, or even left the forum, because of the aggressive/abusive posting.

Could you please explain why these 2 or 3 people are being allowed to destroy this forum?

[Destroy? Hardly! Moderation takes time- volunteers reading all threads that could be moderated and deciding exactly which posts go over the line, and then deleting those posts without destroying contunity goes beyond our lack-of-pay grade. It has been tried- it only generated more debate and complaints and created MORE threads and posts that needed to be edited. Occasionally, a seriously offensive post is edited, but so far, the only real way to control those who can't control their own bad behavior is to --- ignore. Not totally effective, but tempting them by arguing with them in kind is like a dare. Acrimonious bickering and insults seem to be a sort of 'hobby' to some--- especially in the UK. No one is ever willing to back down, even to make a good point in a quiet way. It is hard for some of us to understand. We simply don't KNOW how to 'moderate' among those who refuse to debate civilly.]

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 09:06 PM

I have no accomplices on this forum. I am, fiercely, an individual. Yes, certain persons occasionally seem to post with a similar sentiment to mine and I respond to them accordingly. I think I can say in all honesty that Musket and I (I could be wrong, but I forget) haven't corresponded privately in any conspiratorial or, indeed, any other fashion (oh shit, or did we once privately banter about your Sheff Wed delusion, Musket?). So, Hate One, don't be such an arse. I don't have a clue who your friends are here and you don't have a clue who mine are (I'll let you into a secret - I don't really have any. Any relationship I have in the unreal world of this forum is one hundred per cent up here for all to see). You are not only a hateful, prejudiced, homophobic and ignorant man - you are neurotic to boot, as your last few posts have abundantly revealed. One might advise you to get a life.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 02:23 AM

Ear Ear. Mouth Mouth.

Two aspects of social intercourse lacking in the la la land of the interweb thingy.

Mind you, worms appear to get their point across. Pity they are nasty little bugger. (Except the hard working industrious ones converting my composters. Got four wheelbarrow loads from two composters yesterday. Quite impressive.)

The moderators are right. Here in The UK it almost seems (in the absence of facts to back it up) that decent normal people are less likely to let bigotry and odious comments go unchallenged. Don't know if that is the case but to be fair to the mods, it seems that way.

Anyway, how would I know my co Messiah? He plays a gob iron for starters and mummy always told me to give them a wider berth than banjoists even.. plus his football affiliations are somewhat skewed. He may be a Messiah but he knows bugger all about footie. My lad lives in the 'pool and never loses a footie argument in the pub (allegedly. )

Plus we have a built in moderator on this thread. An associated gnome who gets people weighed up fast and accurately.

Must dash. Reality calls.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 03:46 AM

" ... many others have complained, or even left the forum, because of the aggressive/abusive posting."

I suspect that those "many others" are precious, over-sensitive idiots with over-inflated egos (egoes?) or are insecure in their opinions. I've never been offended by anything that I've read on Mudcat ... sticks & stones etc. I derive a lot of harmless amusement from it, though!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 04:46 AM

The "many others" are largely the folks who set this place up in the beginning..... When I joined many years ago, we had respectful debate on any subject, bad behaviour was recognised for what it was, a wrecking tool!

Two or three people were removed for being personally abusive, or trying to attack forum administration.
It was a great place to come to....plenty of heated arguments on controversial subjects all underpinned by a respect for the opinions of other members whether we agreed with them or not.

Some of the present contributors have worked out that personal abuse is no longer regulated and use it in place of reasoned argument.
Now some members may think this is OK, as the bullying tactics often scare off opponents of the point at issue, and the point is regarded as won.

But!!   In the long term these tactics will destroy this forum, as more thinking people turn off.

I have much sympathy for the mods, who perhaps don't have the confidence, or authority to take the appropriate action...a thankless job.

Shimrod.....Don't like to bring this up, but I remember you being subjected to a disgusting personal attack...during which I among others supported you....the situation was then dealt with by admin.

I remember, that you were rightly.....Very offended indeed.
It did not amuse me to see such behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 05:13 AM

"Shimrod.....Don't like to bring this up, but I remember you being subjected to a disgusting personal attack...during which I among others supported you....the situation was then dealt with by admin."

Well, thank you for supporting me, akenaton, but I honestly have no memory of this incident. Obviously it did me no lasting harm!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 05:18 AM

Moderators...."we simply do not know how to moderate among those who will not debate civilly"

Simple, you are the LAW here and there are only two or three people who behave in this manner. Keep an eye on them if they use degrading language or continually call names without addressing the point at issue, delete their posts.
The abuse will stop immediately, and we can get back to civilised debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 05:33 AM

Not as easy as that I'm afraid, Ake. Abuse takes many forms. The least of which is name calling and bad language. Where do you want the mods to stop? Insults? Bad language? Offensive ideas? Propagation of homophobic principles? There are plenty of occasions where I believe a post should be deleted and very few of them have anything to do with 'degrading language' or childish name calling. And there are plenty more than the 'two or three' people who happen to disagree with you. What you are asking for is a moderation policy that favours one viewpoint over another. It will not and should never happen.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 06:13 AM

One of the wonderful aspects of debates on mudcat.org is that if you exhibit behaviours the last generation fought a war to put a lid on, you gradually find yourself with nowhere to go, no support, no opportunity to push your offensive agenda.

Lovely to think a bit of name calling and childish abuse helps somewhat. It's what I like doing according to some. Doubt it is clever of course, but best keep clever comments for clever people.

Reminiscing over when hate was socially acceptable is perhaps the last gasp and tomorrow a butterfly might appear from the worm. Be nice to discuss dogs, deep fried Mars bars and haggis appreciation but not easy when he is wearing his black shirt.

Mind you, you can't educate pork.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 06:48 AM

you can't educate pork

Oh, I dunno, Messiah M. I trained a couple of pieces of pork to be very tasty old-English dry cured bacon this morning...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 07:12 AM

Wow, Steve, I never expected to hear you call Darwin a fool.

Just as a matter of passing interest, what do you think of Stu's assertion that people should "familiarise yourself with the philosophies and methodologies that make 'science' what it is"?

Just askin'.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 07:18 AM

Musket

Anyway, how would I know my co Messiah? He plays a gob iron for starters and mummy always told me to give them a wider berth than banjoists even.. plus his football affiliations are somewhat skewed. He may be a Messiah but he knows bugger all about footie.

So what do you think of his "Evolution is true." version of science?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 07:18 AM

Just noticed

we have a built in moderator on this thread. An associated gnome

I can see what you are getting at Messiah M but I must point out that I am very rarely moderate in anything

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 07:41 AM

You could be as left field and irrational as you like but you'd still make more sense than the learned philosophers spouting bollocks. At least you actually say bollocks.

Snail. My take on my co Messiah's pronouncements are revealed only at the closed session of our synod. I break rank when it comes to footie and real musical instruments but science fact and philosophy are his domain not mine.

I think therefore I am.
I don't think therefore I'm Muskets pet greyhound.

Easy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 08:50 AM

Blaah! Blaah!..blahtiddy blah................. all the usual flummery, mummery mixed in with ripe smell of bullpoo..you are like a lot of kids in the playground.. did the naughty man say something nasty, shaw you fraud? or are the comments a little to uncomfortably near the truth? if you cant stand the heat get out of the furnace;
A lttle light banter livens up the day I find;

if you are pointing the finger at me any of you..please show me in any posts were I was racist, propagated homophobic principles, used bad language and I will withdraw very willingly from this forum.. until then I will keep exposing frauds and phony's.

It should be me complaining about you lot and the insults that rain down on me every time I post..but no..I am good..I can forgive. I don't keep howling for the thread police every time someone says something I do not like.

to sum up for shaw, wizzjet and the rest..

"do not judge or you to will be judged": Mathew 7:1

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 09:40 AM

please show me in any posts were I was racist, propagated homophobic principles, used bad language and I will withdraw very willingly from this forum

This is too tempting a promise to be passed up: You used bad language by writing "cant" which should be spelled "can't" (or "cannot"; Musket will know yet another spelling). Now withdraw. The alleged homophobic is akenaton. You are rarely being addressed, since even in the role of a troll you are miscast.

until then I will keep exposing frauds and phony's

You have not started yet exposing anything, have you? If you follow a Christian agenda (- which seems not too probable given your spelling "Mathew" -), your style would make for some surprise, if there were any substance behind it.

Probably you posted to Mudcat before under different nicknames, presumably with similar success.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 09:46 AM

Wow, Steve, I never expected to hear you call Darwin a fool.

Huh? You really are barking, aren't you? (Quite an achievement for a gastropod...)

So what do you think of his "Evolution is true." version of science?

A word in your shell-like, old bean. "Evolution is true", as I have been at pains to explain to you, is not a version of science. It is a declaration of the self-evident, as in "one's left testicle is to the left of one's right testicle, unless one happens to be viewing them from the front, in which case vice versa". There, not a modicum of science in that lot. An immutable truth applying to all twin-betesticled bilaterally-symmetrical individuals since the dawn of time, no science needed to make it true. All the science (wot is the finest product of all human endeavour, along with art) comes in the explanations and interpretations. Now do try to get this under your mantle once and for all.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 10:38 AM

Don't be too harsh, Grishka. Every village needs it's idiot and I wouldn't like to think of poor old Conc being made redundant. He has a harsh enough life as it is, racing from one important meeting to the next, picking up degrees like litter and talking complete and utter bollocks. Without us he would be sat in that padded room with nothing better to do. Just think of it as care in the community.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 11:09 AM

"Acrimonious bickering and insults seem to be a sort of 'hobby' to some--- especially in the UK"

This is part of the US-UK dichotomy and is shown endlessly on Mudcat. Sincere, passionate debate is part of the culture of our islands. We reserve the right to say we think something is total bollocks if we think it is, and all around family dinner tables on a Sunday, in pubs and social clubs, as we're eating our tea in front of the telly, at bus stops, in cafes or in fact anywhere you get more than one person from these islands you will find vigorous, robust and animated debate occurring. It might look odd to those who are unfamiliar with discussing things this way, but that's your loss in all honesty. We've been here for thousands of years doing it, and that's how our society works.

There are no sacred cows here, or in any discussion. Bollocks to that.


"Isn't it all a gigantic waste of time? Let people believe what they wish, they are as likely to be right as any scientist?"

No, they're not. You might think it's a waste of time, but then you typed that on a computer that uses technology developed from methodologies that science have used to investigate the universe etc.


"No, I am not completely certain that evolution happens because I take a scientific view of the world, not a pseudo-religious one. Science doesn't do "completely certain". I can't agree with "Evolution is true" because, as others on this thread have pointed out, science doesn't do absolute truth."

How do we decide something is true? At what point do we as a society say "this is an established fact?". Although we can't say for 100% evolution is true, we can say it's as near a dammit that it has occurred and is occurring. I can't say for sure a living blue whale exists as I've never seen one myself, however the evidence for the existence of blue whales is overwhelming and although until I see one and recognise it for what it is I can't say 100% for sure they exist and are alive, I say they are and do as other people (not least among them scientists) have established their presence in the world's oceans.

In the case of evolution, we're near as dammit sure it has and is happening but we are still working to understand the details as it is a very complex process. We are not certain of the mechanisms of evolution but we are pretty sure those mechanisms are there and working right now, on a daily basis. So we can say "evolution is true" because as far as we know it is, and there is no evidence to the contrary; also, we can affect evolution via selective breeding (such as Darwin's pigeons for example) so there is some solid evidence many of us can see.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 11:54 AM

Sorry to have to tell you this Stu, but if you hadn't noticed this is a pseudo religious thread.




And your last post was number 666.






Just saying like.

Perhaps St Michael may use this opportunity to wade in with a conspiracy theory along those lines?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 12:16 PM

Stu,

Sincere, passionate debate is part of the culture of our islands. We reserve the right to say we think something is total bollocks if we think it is

In my opinion, that would not pass as "acrimonious bickering" in the sense of Ake and that anonymous Mudelf, not even as a full-fledged insult, just "strong language". Actually there is a British tradition of faked taunting and sneering as a branch of comedy; think of John Cleese. Musket seems to claim a part in that tradition. However, he does not only fall short of it, but misses it completely, first of all because he is not funny, secondly because he cannot always hide his emotional involvement. Steve, on the other hand, neither claims to be a comedian at all (witness his rare lame jokes) nor tries to hide his "fierce" emotional involvement (27 Oct 13 - 09:06 PM). The only thing that is funny about him is that he calls others neurotic. Jack the Sailor is his fitting mirror. All this has been observed many times even in the few threads I have read; no psychology is needed. Sad to see, but not mine to cure.

To be scientifically exact, there is a faint possibility that some extremely clever people might have tediously faked some of those personalities completely - but for what secret agenda? In the eyes of a good observer, most of the bickerers effectively work for the opposite agenda they claim, thus neutralizing each other. (It seems clear though that Conc is indeed a fake by one of our crusaders.)

A real pity is that casual readers who want to learn about the topics of the threads may not only be frustrated, but thoroughly misled.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 12:50 PM

A real pity is that casual readers who want to learn about the topics of the threads may not only be frustrated, but thoroughly misled.

Sorry, either I just don't get that, Grishka or else you don't understand that to learn about science and religious philosophy you don't come to a forum on folk music. What is more, if you want to learn anything at all I would highly recommend that you stay away from forums altogether as you have not the slightest idea whether those 'teaching' you are qualified to do so or not. A 'casual reader' is as likely to stumble across this thread as Conc is likely to win the Nobel prize for anything.

You are reading far too much into this non-debate than is good for you and are coming to some quite remarkable conclusions yourself. At least you have gained fans in Ake and Conc. If that is any consolation at all.

BTW - You never did let us know what the Russian connection was.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket with red nose
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 01:01 PM

Ah. Comedy.

Never tried that.

I say I say I say.
What do you say?
Grishka is talking out of his arse again!

See. No punch line. That's my problem. 10/10 for accuracy but sod all entertainment value.

Sob! My emotional attachment has woken up again. Woah is me.........

Anyway, how do spell neurowhstchamacallit?

I'll say to you the same as I said the worm earlier. If I want to be analysed, I'll ask Goofus to do it. I like his posts. Haven't got a bloody clue what he us speaking about but his self proclaimed cv makes conc look like a neet.

The worm appreciates you though, and as brother gnome points out, that may be consolation. I wouldn't shout about it all the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 01:24 PM

I think Grishka and Conc are actually the same person BTW. Think about it. Jekyll and Hyde? Ying and Yang? Bubble and Squeak?

Well, neither can scientifically prove that they are not anyway.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 01:42 PM

Alas, I cannot choose my fans. I am not here to get as many "followers" as I can; actually I am glad whenever I read something I had not thought of or known before - which does not imply that I agree with the author's intentions.

What do we want to learn here? Not science, to be sure, but some excerpts of people's minds and opinions. If someone says he is XXXist, I hope to learn something about XXXism, and how a typical XXXist may feel towards YYYists. If they turn out to be something else than they claim, or to have no idea of their own convictions, I am not satisfied (though not disappointed in the sense that Mudcat owes us a representative collection). Casual readers may be misled, in particular they may think all those XXXists are as unreflecting as their self-declared representatives here.

Summary: I am not complaining, just pointing out the difference between good British bickering and parts of this thread.

Musket, you often claim not to be serious and intending laughters. If you meant to be laughed at rather than laughed about - sorry, I misunderstood.

Russian: yes, some of my ancestors were Russians. I spent a couple of decades in England - no ancestors from there, but loads of bickering. No problem with outspoken criticism, love good comedy and clever sarcasm when in the mood.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 01:57 PM

Couple of things then, Grishka. Firstly

What do we want to learn here? Not science, to be sure, but some excerpts of people's minds and opinions.

If you believe you have any insight into my mind by reading my posts on here than you are indeed as deluded as poor old Conc. You have no idea whatsoever about what makes me tick or what I am like in real life and I have even less idea what you are like. Once again, if you want to learn anything about anyone, go and meet them. Keep off web forums.

Secondly

just pointing out the difference between good British bickering and parts of this thread.

Followed by I spent a couple of decades in England

Yet you believe you have a better insight into the British psyche that those of us who were born and have spent our lives here? I am beginning to think my theory on the dual personality here is gaining ground all the time!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 02:55 PM

Its all a bit sad really. Why come to what was a proper discussion forum if all you want to do is "troll" or wind people up?

Are you really saying that you, Ian and Steve don't really mean what you write here and it's all just some sort of convoluted joke?

I think I can work out what people are really like by what they write here, and you three are easy.
As Grishka says, your emotional responses give you away.

Would you not be better entertained on facebook?....or do you enjoy being the prize exhibits?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 03:17 PM

Sigh. Another amateur psychologist. Carry on Ake. You may as well join the rest of the club.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 03:35 PM

Have you noticed how those of us who are accused of not posting seriously are not ashamed of our identity being revealed but those complaining about it are too ashamed to reveal themselves?

Take the worm as an example. Not a good example but that's life. He ridicules what he doesn't understand, he encourages hatred of what he doesn't share and enjoys anonymous standing so as people don't point out the little Hitler in the corner if he mingles with people who might have read his diatribe.

In the meantime he takes every opportunity to ensure that when he feebly tries to make me look bad that he gets the Ian behind the Musket into the thread. He complains when I call him worm instead of Akenaton but by the same token refuses to call me Musket, Muskrat or any other nonsense.

But. . But point out the senseless hurtful outrageous filth coming from his keyboard and he wants you thrown off his pet website to allow him to find fellow homophobes in peace. I assume he posts hate mail here because even social networks have sussed him.

Yours truly

Musket. The best bang since the big one.



With apologies to the late Douglas Adams and a certain ex girlfriend. ....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 05:15 PM

To be scientifically exact, there is a faint possibility that some extremely clever people might have tediously faked some of those personalities completely - but for what secret agenda? In the eyes of a good observer, most of the bickerers effectively work for the opposite agenda they claim, thus neutralizing each other. (It seems clear though that Conc is indeed a fake by one of our crusaders.)

To be scientifically exact, you need evidence. Now here's your problem. You find people here who are at odds with your rather prosaic, conventional world view. So they must be mentally ill, on too much wine or faking their identities. Here's a hint for you, old chap(ess). Dump your loser's sour grapes, do a bit more homework, leave your baggage at the door and engage the arguments. It's much more fun than whatever it is you seem to be doing. To be scientifically inexact.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 05:22 PM

Are you really saying that you, Ian and Steve don't really mean what you write here and it's all just some sort of convoluted joke?

I think I can work out what people are really like by what they write here, and you three are easy.
As Grishka says, your emotional responses give you away.

So Achy Tony seeks to build on Grishka's analysis of those with whom Achy Tony disagrees. We're unstable, mentally-ill boozers with fake identities who don't mean what we say and we're emotionally fraught to boot. Nice one, old chap. And you call us trolls, without a trace of irony, of course. You silly, silly fellow!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 05:25 PM

Dave, I wrote minds and opinions (that is so-called English for умы и мнения), not psyches. I want to learn from what people volunteer to tell me. I never claim to analyze a person, not on Mudcat, not in "real life", no Briton, no Russian. Actually you do not (yet?) seem interesting enough that I would take the trouble if I could. The only self-appointed psychologist here, who calls others neurotic, is Steve (27 Oct 13 - 09:06 PM). Go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 05:47 PM

Steve, I definitely do not think that you are faked; I just mentioned the theoretical possibility for sake of completeness. Actually you do have some honesty (for want of a better word) and other traits that would speak in your favour if you let them. Whenever you want to engage in a clear-cut argument with me again, you are always welcome.

Evidence that Conc is a fake? Here is an clue (not a proof): who has ever seen a genuine full-time troll suddenly quote Matthew? Actually I do have an idea who might hide behind that mask; the elves can check the IP addresses and pronounce their usual warnings (as they did long ago when someone else posted from my computer).

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 06:30 PM

No, sorry Grishka. No cigar this time either. Do you really believe that something as prosaic as "Actually you do not (yet?) seem interesting enough" would provoke some sort of reaction? If you do indeed want to learn from what people tell you, and I very much doubt that statement, then I am afraid you need to be a lot better than you seem to be at the moment:-)

As someone pointed out earlier, the more honest of us post, if not with our real names, at least with our identities openly known. Those who chose not to do so are perfectly entitled to their little secrets. Just as we are perfectly entitled to believe that, like your identities, your motives are not what they seem.

Now, if anyone wants to get back to talking complete bollocks I am happy to engage in the morning but, for now, off to the land of nod.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 07:22 PM

Just as we are perfectly entitled to believe that, like your identities, your motives are not what they seem.

You asked me and got an answer. My statements of motive give you something at hand in case you find me not acting accordingly, so you should be glad. Some other posters refuse to let themselves be measured by any of their previous statements at all.

As for my name and address: what do you and Musket want that for, if not for inflicting damage on me, in the real world or in other Internet places? Do you think I deserve that, for insulting you?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 09:04 PM

Actually you do not (yet?) seem interesting enough that I would take the trouble if I could.

Posted without irony from the most boring poster on the forum...

Steve, I definitely do not think that you are faked; I just mentioned the theoretical possibility for sake of completeness. Actually you do have some honesty (for want of a better word) and other traits that would speak in your favour if you let them.

Twattery personified. How good of you to defend my honesty (from one who seems scared of the planet knowing their name and whereabouts - your business, of course). My name's Steve Shaw, I live near Bude, I post controversially and anyone who wants to could track me down in a heartbeat. Cut the bullshit why don't you!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 09:06 PM

Yeah, Dave, let's go back to talking bollocks. The rest is shit!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 04:46 AM

Ah Grishka!.....you seem to be flushing them out :0)

I have given my real name and address to only two trusted friends here, I don't need the hassle which would ensue if a someone like Ian got hold of it. Ian has kindly reported me to Stonewall for my views on ways of reducing the very high rates of sexually transmitted disease amongst male homosexuals.
I eagerly await my letter of commendation.

You have some cheek Steve, to describe Grishka as "boring".
You may be slightly more honest than your two friends, but interesting or informative you are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 05:50 AM

Steve, would you like to report me as well? Or send me a letter bomb? How brave of you! You know very well that nobody would bother to send you a poisoned harmonica, because reasonable people have better things to do.

Engage in arguments: Stringsinger started this thread to discuss about organized atheism. I went about discussing some aspects and a prominent protagonist; the others including the OP dodged. Musket feels insulted by the thread title.

Stu and Dave, are you suggesting this thread to be a model of British culture? Is TheSnail guilty of Un-British Activities?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 06:00 AM

As for my name and address: what do you and Musket want that for, if not for inflicting damage on me, in the real world or in other Internet places? Do you think I deserve that, for insulting you?

We don't. I just think it is more honest to let people know who you are. Your address is not needed for that, nor is your real name but unless you can demonstrate that you are the same person in real life how can anyone trust you? My name and interests are well known on here. Like Steve and Musket I could be found in an instant by anyone with an inkling to do so. We know nothing at all about Grishka and akenaton apart from their real identities are not known.

And why on earth do you think anyone would to 'inflict damage' on you for something as trivial as an internet discussion? No, I don't believe you deserve that but people often measure others by their own standards. Do you wish to inflict damage on others because of anything that happens on here? We know ake wants to stick needles into gay man against their will but I thought better of you.

D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket clarifying
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 06:08 AM

Don't flatter yourself. I reported Mudcat.org via the local authority where I live to the Stonewall service for monitoring hate. Due to agreements, should the UK police decide an insignificant little shit who has failed to influence anyone is possibly worth having a word with, Max would be required by the police in his state to supply your log in credentials.

I doubt they will bother, but for all the shouting at the poor moderators, they have missed so he genuine incitement to hatred, put about by the person behind Akenaton.

Grishka, you waded in to a thread spawned by a thread that had become a silly game. Some of us carried the game in this thread. The more people were outraged, the funnier it was.

Pricking the bubble of pomposity is a well judged activity. In fact the only stain on this thread isn't you, isn't starry pete, isn't (or wasn't) Jerk the sailor even. We can laugh both with and especially at you.

No. The stain is Akenaton chipping in. I want to wash my phone or iPad after seeing his posts. There is nothing funny, sensible or debate worthy in what he types. He has no sense of the shame people feel knowing their DNA is nearer to his than a fruit fly. No place in respectable company for his views. Luckily, he only exists in cyber land. I have no wish to know who he is. Clapton forbid that I should find myself in the same pub. As I said before, in such circumstances I would sup up and leave, wiping my feet on the way out.



Ok. Back to talking bollocks. Anyone up for seeing my impersonation of Jesus on a rubber cross?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 06:45 AM

I have three nails - Can you put me up for the night?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 07:18 AM

Oh, and before I forget again

Stu and Dave, are you suggesting this thread to be a model of British culture?

There is no such thing as a model of British culture. Having spent 2 decades here you should know that. There is no such thing as a typical Brit and to stereotype a whole culture in such a way is tantamount to racism. In a way, this thread and the whole of Mudcat are good examples of all cultures. Bits are outstandingly good, bits are horrendously bad but in the main we are all OK with slight hints of the extremes.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 07:22 AM

Steve, would you like to report me as well? Or send me a letter bomb? How brave of you!

Silly, neurotic and offensive (I'm just about the least violent person on the planet, and anyone who's gonna argue with that gets a bunch of fives yeah?). As I don't take offence, let's just leave it at silly and neurotic.

My favourite scene from Fawlty Towers:

Much-provoked spoons salesman (Bernard Cribbins), after having decked Basil: I'm not a violent man, Mr Fawlty..."

Basil (muffled voice from floor behind reception desk): Oh yes you are...!"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 07:24 AM

Grr. All those little sideways vees put me right off my speech marks there. Grr.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 08:11 AM

Dave,

unless you can demonstrate that you are the same person in real life how can anyone trust you?

What is "the same person in real life"? All you can expect from a forum is that all posts signed "Grishka" are by the same person; this does not solve your problem though. (If Mudcat offered password-protected GUEST accounts, without cookies etc., I would use one.) If I were claiming the authority of, say, two Cambridge Ph.D.s, you could rightly ask me to produce references. But the sort of authority I want can only be gained by sensible messages.

Musket,

Grishka, you waded in to a thread spawned by a thread that had become a silly game. Some of us carried the game in this thread. The more people were outraged, the funnier it was.

Commonly called trolling. Skillful trolls can do a good job of exposing unreasonable outrage. Those who do all the name-calling themselves have failed, all the more so if they cannot credibly plead satire.

Pricking the bubble of pomposity is a well judged activity.

It would be. Instead, you created glorious martyrs, and, worse, committed treason of your claimed rationality and scientific education. If you had fun, your condescendingly appointed "co-Messiah" definitely does not seem to share it. Too bad for him.

Generally, messages to Mudcat should not tacitly require knowledge of other threads. In particular, critical comments should always state the exact message they refer to. For example, accusing others of hate crimes takes some elementary rhetorics, either satirical or serious, to be credible to neutral readers.

Steve, I take your word for it, for the time being. (In fact, I have seen Islamists shouting "We are gentle people, peaceful and pious, strictly against all violence, suffering silently, never harming a fly. But if those bastards insult the Prophet, of course they must all die!" Also, I remember you feeling "sniped at" in an argument about - drum roll - Beethoven!)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 08:23 AM

Up until recently this thread was, at least, entertaining. Now, suddenly, it's become quite boring and a bit ... well ... odd! It seems to have been hi-jacked by a couple of censorious individuals who, whilst having no real opinions of their own, seem to believe that other people shouldn't have opinions.

As far as I can make out, among all of the mis-spellings, 'free-form' grammar and strange references to 'ginger' things, 'concerened' is of the same ilk - but at least he is entertaining!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 08:28 AM

Steve Shaw
Now, Snailie One. Evolution happens. Are you a fool? ......... Otherwise, do try to make the distinction between self-evident reality (not science) and the human interpretation of it (science).

I posted a passage from Origin of Species which clearly showed that Darwin did not think that evolution was self-evident and presented a case to support it that went over more than ten pages of the Penguin Classics edition. You are calling him a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 08:39 AM

Stu
Although we can't say for 100% evolution is true, we can say it's as near a dammit that it has occurred and is occurring.

Fine by me but that is fundamentally different from saying it is true. I'd be interested in hearing your ideas about "the philosophies and methodologies that make 'science' what it is", concepts that Steve utterly rejects.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 08:42 AM

Agreed, Shimrod. It was vaguely entertaining before. Now someone wants to use it to gain an insight into other peoples minds:-S Ah well. It takes all sorts.

Grishka

What is "the same person in real life"?

I suspect you are being disingenuous as I would have thought the answer to that was obvious. Without knowledge of who you really are how are we to know that you are not one of the anonymous guests who causes so much disruption on here? You are, of course, perfectly entitled to your anonymity but remember that people cannot trust what they do not know. Unless of course you are of the religious persuasion which brings us back to this thread!

The co-Messiahs and I, along with dozens of other people on here, are all openly transparent. Anyone can trace who we are. We feel no need to hide behind a fake persona. We are the same people in real life as we are on here. We have no need to blindly follow nor any need to expect other people to do the same.

Seemples.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 09:51 AM

What is a real person gnomet? who are we? what are we but vessels( some empty ones agreed)

But there again playmates,judging by some of the begrudgery and bickering that has crept into this thread, some of you need a little compassion in your lives.

"But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked." Luke6:35

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 10:07 AM

""to sum up for shaw, wizzjet and the rest..

"do not judge or you to will be judged": Mathew 7:1""

Take a look in the mirror, and consider the full import of that quotation, as it applies to your own comments!

In addition, we have to put up with the epithets, misnomers and unadulterated crap of which your posting history is composed.

You believe that we are phonies!

We believe that you are an uneducated teenage Walter Mitty clone, making up spurious deeds and mythical qualifications.

The solution is simple. Address the topic and show us this wisdom which you claim to possess!

Tell us where and how we are, in your opinion, going wrong!

If you cannot do that, STFU!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 11:03 AM

700!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 11:56 AM

""Actually I do have an idea who might hide behind that mask; the elves can check the IP addresses and pronounce their usual warnings (as they did long ago when someone else posted from my computer).""

Hmmmm!

Who else do we know, who has claimed to be victimised by some unknown person using his computer to post untruths?

If such were the case, all that the elves could ascertain is the fact that it was your computer.

They could not ascertain whose fingers were on the keyboard.

They might warn others that it might not be you, but that would be mere opinion unsupported by evidence, and therefore meaningless.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 12:14 PM

Don't shout at me wizjet there really is no need.


I always thought you had something missing in your sad life how I am sure.

if not posting religions texts is addressing the point I don't know what is. as the last one did no good try this one:


"It was good for me to be afflicted so that I might learn your decrees": .psalm 119:71

Bless you

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 01:02 PM

" I'd be interested in hearing your ideas about "the philosophies and methodologies that make 'science' what it is", concepts..."

A bit much for a single post!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 01:53 PM

Dave,

Without knowledge of who you really are how are we to know that you are not one of the anonymous guests who causes so much disruption on here?

You cannot, and could not even if you knew my complete personal record. All you can do is read messages and make conclusions - check for meaning, connotations, ways of reasoning, consistency, style, etc. Whoever asks anybody to trust her or him blindly, is definitely not trustworthy.

For example, how do I know that Conc is a fake? He has suddenly learned how to spell - behold, a miracle! If you are interested, you can compare his newly found writing style with other posters'; you may not have to go very far. I guess he has been inspired by Musket's "Mr Hyde" mask, to shout out his frustration. Presumably the fun is as limited as the success, in either case.

Don,

>> (as they did long ago when someone else posted from my computer)

A friend of mine visited me and posted an excellent message from my IP address, but under a GUEST nickname different from "Grishka" - we were enjoined to use a consistent nickname. Schizophrenia, innit? I wonder if Conc has taken precautions.

Shimrod, my opinion is easy to find, for people who know how to read more than one sentence. Conc's is even easier to spot.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerend
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 02:29 PM

Ah!! the guest was me..........

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 02:51 PM

No you prat. Musket is Dr Jekyl. Ian is Mr Hyde.

Just want to clarify.

In any case I would prefer to be addressed as Co Messiah M. Take your lead from our associated gnome.

Sorry I can't do biblical references or quotes. The only one I know, and then courtesy of Mike Harding is "lo, the roar of Moses' s Triumph could be heard throughout Israel. " (Corinthians 23 St Helens 12.) I assume it was a bonneville from before 1964 when the brake and gear pedal were on the opposite sides and the engine was 650 rather than 750.

About my sum knowledge I'm afraid. And even that is dubious.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 04:04 PM

I thought it was a TR4 - Moses came down the mountain in his Triumph. Ah well, just goes to show what I know...

Yes Grishka. No-one knows for sure, but the more transparent you are the more people will believe you. As to people using multiple IDs, well, as far as I know, you have been the only one in this discussion who has been found out in this. Even if you did find excuses later. There is no need to "check for meaning, connotations, ways of reasoning, consistency, style, etc.". Just let your suspicions be known to the mods. and they will slap anyone who is performing such shenanigans. As you well know.

As for Conc's spelling. Quite simple really. His warders have shown him how to cut and paste. It has been known before.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 04:30 PM

Darwin was in the unenviable position of having to persuade a sceptical scientific community and potentially hostile religious forces that evolution is a self-evident fact, even before the explanation of it that the theory provides, and he knew full well that it was. The next step was the articulation of his theory. A theory that has subsequently provided, as science advances, a persuasive explanation of how evolution happens. He doubted at many junctures the efficacy of his theory, honest scientist that he was, but not the fact of evolution. You are seriously confused about this but you refuse to abandon the somewhat rickety construction that you desperately need in order to stay at odds with me. Weird. And obsessive. Not looking good, Snailo.

Stu: Although we can't say for 100% evolution is true, we can say it's as near a dammit that it has occurred and is occurring.

You: Fine by me but that is fundamentally different from saying it is true.

So you're saying there there is a possibility that evolution doesn't happen. Poor thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 05:05 PM

Dave, I did not make any excuses then or later. However, I could hardly be "astroturfing", given that so few other messages support mine - and even fewer do so in words that I can possibly find helpful. Mudcat rule is: those who object might reply, those who agree are likely just to nod silently.

Again: people should never believe blindly what others write. My messages, like all others, should be judged by their own collective weight, not by any other credentials. A Ph.D., for example, however credible, will be of no use if the messages are not of matching quality.

(Like many of us, I have several reasons to keep my RL identity largely to myself, not primarily to avoid being stalked by Mudcatters.)—

Conc copy-and-pasting? Would work for the Bible, but the where on earth could the rest be copied from??

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 06:52 PM

Grishka. I won't even pretend to understand more than half of the first paragraph. Which brings me to the second.

If your messages are to be judged purely by their 'own collective weight' then I am afraid that, for me, you fall far short of the quality you seem to expect in others. I know my posts are confused or confusing at times but I do not pretend to be doing any serious research or articulating anything deep or meaningful. You have no credentials at all I'm afraid and life is too short to try and figure out if you are one of the good guys by analysing your sometimes obscure proclamations.

On the positive side, I do like the last bit. Is it supposed to be ironic or do you really not know where things are copied from? Either way, gave me a laugh.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 02:04 AM

I have to stick to the motorbike side to be fair. I passed my driving test in a Triumph Acclaim and still get flashbacks. That said I remain a 50% owner of a Stag. Sadly in bits but one day. ...

Sorry. What were we all talking about again?

Oh right. I reckon, forgive me if I am wrong, that Grishka is trying to say that you should be judged by your words not your credentials.

Fine by me.

However, speaking as a co Messiah I can say that anything I post on the subject of the God concept is, by either credentials or otherwise, at least as accurate as anything said by The Archbishop of Canterbury, the Pope, Joe Offer or Richard Bloody Dawkins.

There's a reason for that.

And it ain't my exalted position as a co Messiah. Or indeed a co very naughty boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 05:54 AM

Dave (29 Oct 13 - 06:52 PM),

Astroturfing: posting under various nicknames/IDs in order to fake a "grassroots movement". The least plausible of all the wrongdoings I have been accused of.—

you fall far short of the quality you seem to expect in others.

If you think about this statement, considering that I do not give any external credentials, it turns into a self-contradiction. If you mean "Some of your statements look deep and meaningful, but I do not understand them immediately, and I do not know whether it is worth my while to think about them" - fair enough (as opposed to believing them), but you would not be much better off if you knew my name and address. You can ask me and others for explanations, or just watch how the thread proceeds.

If you promise me not to expose me publicly, I'll tell you a secret: I don't understand everything either, and I don't feel I have to.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 06:40 AM

Yes, that is what I mean, Grishka but I can only go round in circles so long and will only spend a limited amount of time trying to figure out what people are saying. Please feel free to carry on. You win.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 07:44 AM

"So you're saying there there is a possibility that evolution doesn't happen. Poor thing."

Not sure who that's addressed to, but there is a tiny, minute, minuscule, infinitesimally small chance that we have collectively misinterpreted the evidence, and as a scientist you have to accept that. However, there is no other way of explaining how speciation occurs and how new organisms appear, and so far the evidence is indisputable and there is no competing theory that comes close to evolution (although the mechanisms are still hotly debated).

So to all intents and purposes, evolution is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 06:32 PM

I don't know when mE have had so much fun..the pomposity of the frauds and phoneys on this thread am nearly outweighed by their pretensions of acaDemia...get a life springs to mind;

Youm was more fun when you was rising to mI bait and trying to out do yourselves in insulting mI spelling and Mi grammar;

Now we have this mystic grishka whose credentials, to say the least, are suspect to I .I verily believe he is a bigger troll than you think mE am with his Sherlock Holmesing posturing, his half arsed opinions and his smoke screening..

now even seaman staynes nautical crap is looking more entertaining to I...

Dear hEarts, please get a grip before me bankrupt myself with bulk orders of crayons9

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 07:09 PM

Not sure who that's addressed to, but there is a tiny, minute, minuscule, infinitesimally small chance that we have collectively misinterpreted the evidence, and as a scientist you have to accept that. However, there is no other way of explaining how speciation occurs and how new organisms appear, and so far the evidence is indisputable and there is no competing theory that comes close to evolution (although the mechanisms are still hotly debated).

So to all intents and purposes, evolution is true.

No worries, Stu, that was squarely addressed to Snail. Of course we may have misinterpreted everything and there is that minuscule chance that evolution does not happen. But that's about as likely as the existence of God/seven-legged little blue men living on Saturn's rings/a duff bottle of Hirondelle. I live my life in a practical manner assuming that those things don't happen. To all intents and purposes, those things do not occur, though I'm open to philosophical arguments ripe to be shot down. If we can't accept that evolution is true and that my left testicle is to the left of my right testicle, then we might as well abandon the word "true" altogether. But it's a good word so I'm not quite up for doing that, philosophers with time on their hands notwithstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 07:41 PM

too late to post much but-
Darwin admitted that the data he collected to formulate his idea could as well be otherwise interpreted.
you are still equivocating. evolutionism is not the same thing as natural selection, which is part of the creationist model ,and was pre-Darwin.
I don't think any of stu's examples of evolutionism being of use to operational science are demonstrated to fulfil that promise.

I do not recall any hateful lanquage used about homosexuals in akenatons posts. disagreement does not constitute homophobia, and if he is correct in his statistical analysis ,he is being more caring than the PC brigade, whatever stonewall might say about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 07:47 PM

Do continue to talk through your brainless creationist arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 03:04 AM

I know you don't read much pete. That's why you may not have read some of the hate stuff.

Is is therefore pete or a general Christian thing to want to force all, not some but all gay men to be put on a register and tested against their own free will for sexually transmitted disease. Bear in mind that 70% of all STDs are carried by heterosexual people, sadly mainly young women with chlamydia. .

Also bear in mind a test is not a cure. Assuming for one minute his wish came true, there would be no health benefits. Just a government owned list of gay people and you would be breaking the law if you didn't appear on their list.

Please read what he puts before defending hatred. It doesn't come over as being very Christian, ,unless your church tells you to not see gay people as equal?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 04:29 AM

ok musket I read your reasoning, and agree that that suggestion, if accurate does seem discrimatory. I still , however suspect that you make an unwarranted assumption that hateful motive is behind it.

I was asked about- yea challenged- to give examples of creationist thinking advancing science.
dr russel Humphries made predictions about mercury and Neptune based on a creationist model, which was massively more accurate than evolutionist predictions when voyager space craft passed those planets.
vestigial organs, stu?. sorry if that was unclear-
evolutionary thinking expected that there would be useless leftovers from the evolutionary process, and used to cite several.
we now know that they were wrong and that their Darwin bias thus hindered science.
same with dna - expected leftover junk, but increasingly shown to be erroneous.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 06:29 AM

Hi pete - welcome back!

I decided to read about the work of Dr Russell Humphries here:

http://www.icr.org/article/beyond-neptune-voyager-ii-supports-creation/   

(I can't seem to make the 'blue clicky' thingy work - so readers will have cut-n-paste the link into their browsers)

I note that this work was published in 1984 in a publication called 'Creation Research Society Quarterly' - "a peer-reviewed creationist scientific journal" (based in North America - surprise, surprise!). Forgive my scepticism, but I can't help noting that Russell's theory is based upon "God rapidly transform[ing] water into other materials" (and then a miracle happens!?).

Anyway, it's possible to contrast that account with a scientific view (as opposed to a quasi-religious view based on the Bible, God and miracles) of planetary magnetic fields here:

http://www.astronomynotes.com/solarsys/s7.htm

This account (in proper scientific fashion) freely admits that we've still got a lot to learn about planetary magnetic fields but nowhere does it suggest that we're desperate enough yet to invoke miracles or to shove God and the Bible into the gaps in our knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket again
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 09:59 AM

Ok. But if you take what I put, which by the way can be verified by reading his posts, just click on his name in any thread he has contaminated, not hard. You would be hard pressed to come up with any alternative.

I repeat. He wants compulsory testing and a register of one section of society based on choice of partner rather than clinical risk. Testing cannot lead to cure, so there is no point. It is already an offence to knowingly have unsafe sex if you have a sexually transmitted disease, so he fails to make a point.

Except where he says society is wrong to insist on gay rights... Or gay marriage.... Or gay existence....

The hate is there and whilst debate, piss taking and banter weave the tapestry of these BS threads, incitement to hate crime has no place. I would have loved to tackle him on his "we don't need science" post, but you know what? I can't bring myself to converse with him as an equal.

When I take the piss out of you, for instance, it is because I see you as an intelligent person capable of reason, but not exactly displaying it, and yes, I remain fascinated how religion can blinker people from reality and from where I sit, you are a prime example. Attempts to cloud the minds of children with superstition or impede our attempts to make sense of the universe should be shunned, but carry on making the case otherwise if you wish.

Just don't be surprised when people ridicule your arguments. Superstition is fine, but not as an influence on reality eh? If everybody had my faith in Sheffield Wednesday, there would be nobody to shout "Who are yer?" at, and other religions need people to give them the odd reality check too....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 12:11 PM

Have a listen to musket..a silly chap it is true, but he is the only one ( apart from me that is) that talks straight with no bullshit..Musket old bean, I applaud you( distant noise of clapping)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 12:45 PM

I can't help pointing out, 'concerened' that you've got a very wiggly, wibbly, wobbly, crooked, zig-zaggy way of "talking straight"!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket bashful
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 12:46 PM

Gee gosh {blush} etc

I'll raise a pint glass to your sound of distant clapping later. I'll raise a glass with any bugger to be honest. Been known to raise one to an empty room. I draw the line at lowlife bigots but everyone has a tolerance level.

You know. You don't have to be distant about your clap. Antibiotics are wonderful things, and you don't have to register with Akenhateon in order to get them.

Just one thing.... You say you are into straight talk yet I don't understand you?

Oh..

I'm thick as pig shit after all. Often wondered and all that.

Can we interest you in joining the true religion? Ok, you have to answer questions three and be prepared to grease up for the initiation courtesy of Betty Swollox, and the questions are asked by an associated gnome, yet you seem to have blotted your copy book somewhat with him.... But redeeming isn't just something you do with Nectar points. Co Messiah S is still looking for a reliable bingo caller and since Jerk went quiet, we need a trainee martyr.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 02:36 PM

"you are still equivocating. evolutionism is not the same thing as natural selection, which is part of the creationist model ,and was pre-Darwin."

Natural selection is one of the mechanisms of evolution (there are others). Evolutionism means nothing, so stop using the term.


"vestigial organs, stu?. sorry if that was unclear-
evolutionary thinking expected that there would be useless leftovers from the evolutionary process, and used to cite several.
we now know that they were wrong and that their Darwin bias thus hindered science. "

Er, do you mean vestigal organs or elements such as reduced limbs etc? All vertebrates are descended from a common ancestor and we have pretty much the same body plan and organs as the earliest deuterostome. Your creator was surprisingly lacking in the creative department, seeing as he has basically made many variations using a simple template. As for junk DNA, we're finding out about that now, and we change our minds when new evidence presents itself. That's called 'science' (repeats ad infinitum).

"more accurate than evolutionist predictions when voyager space craft passed those planets."

So now these mythical 'evolutionists' are directing the space programme now? They don't have get about a bit!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist forsmelly known as concerened
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 04:18 PM

Well shitrod..rather a "very wiggly, wibbly, wobbly, crooked, zig-zaggy way of talking straight""
Than a very wiggly, wibbly, wobbly, crooked, zig-zaggy way of THINKING and straight"

Something that only you and the rest of the cake eating, pseudo academic, fence sitting, tepid centrist latchicos can sort out I'm afraid.(that is not including musket of course)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 04:43 PM

yet you seem to have blotted your copy book somewhat with him

No, not at all Messiah M. He just keeps making me change the job offer, which is a bit annoying but not insurmountable. At first it was editor in chief of the Yebbut, but he wrote a couple of words of sense so I had to withdraw that offer. Couple of other things that escape me at the moment. I think, at present, he is doing pretty well as the mad hermit that periodically comes in from the desert with insane ramblings that people think are the word of god. Doing pretty well at it if you could just see your way to convincing Grishka that it is not really you :-)

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 05:20 PM

Wow! Thanks 'concerened' - I didn't know you cared!

Just remind me what a "latchico" is ...?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the ar tist formally known as concerened
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 05:27 PM

No sooner said than done Shitroad old top!!

Latchico: Irish: A Fellow that is bad and is inclined to get worse.
Someone who is in a state of decline and not getting better..

About describes you lot to a T shitrod wouldn't you say?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 05:50 PM

Ah,yes! It's all coming back to me now!

"It takes one latchico to know another latchico."

Which, I believe, was a well known phrase or saying in 18th century Connemara (translated from the Erse, of course).

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 05:54 PM

credit shimrod for looking it up. however both you and stu are passing off the predictive success of humphriess, by a little mockery.

tell you what , stu. you just write "creation" and i'll try and reciprocate by writing "evolution". you want the ism left off,- you do the same.
"simple template..."? certainly there are similarities but template seems to be somewhat of an exaggeration, and in some instances way off mark. I understand that in some cultures similarities are honoured as a mark of ownership, and there is certainly no obligation for a creator to pander to groundless scepticism.
natural selection may be one of the mechanisms of evolutionism but is powerless to turn microbes to man over however long. mutations have not been demonstrated either to create the new information needed to facilitate the evolutionary pathway. dawkins could not think of any when he was asked to give an example. what few questionable examples are around fall far short of whats needed.do you know of any definite examples?
I suggest that using natural selection / mutations as evidence of Darwinism of whatever variety is misleading equivocation.
- also called switch and bait.

musket- you may not be surprised to know that I don't like superstitious religious ideas being taught to our kids as fact, under the guise of science, but I am quite happy for Darwin to be taught as an alternative to creation, as long as they are given the complete picture. at present it is taught as certain fact despite only being an interpretation of data, as Darwin himself admitted.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 07:15 PM

" ... however both you and stu are passing off the predictive success of humphriess, by a little mockery."

But, pete, real scientists don't tend to invoke miraculous transformations in the middle of their work. Any real scientist who did so wouldn't get his work published in any reputable journal and would quite probably be laughed at!

You can't have it both ways, you know. You can't continually bang on about supposed holes in scientific accounts of natural phenomena while at the same time turning a blind eye when one of your own lamely and ludicrously invokes miracles to fill gaps in his one of his accounts!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 07:43 PM

For further reading about one main theorem of evolution theory, I recommend this Wiki article - follow the links there at liberty. The paragraph about the "London Underground mosquito" will also be attractive in the context of our discussion about British culture ;-).

Pete and all others, you are welcome to point us to websites explaining your views. This will save us all a lot of copy-and-pasting and inaccurate summarizing. No one of us will be able to add a new point to the scientific discussion.

But perhaps you, Pete, can tell us whether you believe that the protagonists of evolution theory are just too stupid to understand those deductions that you recognize as logical, or have never heard of them, or form a conspiracy to erode true Christianity?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 09:29 PM

natural selection may be one of the mechanisms of evolutionism

No, thickie, it's one of the mechanisms of evolution. Do shed your hate.

but is powerless to turn microbes to man over however long.

Well now, this is complicated. Evolution does not need power because it has no goals. As for "however long", well three and a half billion years is, I presume, something you can't get your head round, seein' as 'ow you're one o'them young-earthers.

mutations have not been demonstrated either to create the new information needed to facilitate the evolutionary pathway.

Yes they have. I've been over all that before but you're stupid and insulting enough to think I'll forget. It's just that it's too hard for you to understand, and you'd much rather chunder out these snippets of received unwisdom than do any serious thinking or looking-up, you laziest of lazy bastards.

dawkins could not think of any when he was asked to give an example.

Utter misrepresentational bollocks. You're dishonest as well as stupid and lazy. I bet you forget all the words to your songs as well. Which might well be a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 04:18 AM

"But perhaps you, Pete, can tell us whether you believe that the protagonists of evolution theory are just too stupid to understand those deductions that you recognize as logical, or have never heard of them, or form a conspiracy to erode true Christianity?"

Yes, pete, which is it: mass stupidity or anti-Christian conspiracy?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 04:25 AM

I see evidence for evolution all over the place. Or at least. (And this is the clincher) I observe what is explained by no alternative theory.

I also observe genuine well meaning people praying at the bedside in a children's hospice yet the goodbye room (not heated) is in use most days.

Such perspective allows you to draw your own conclusions over the power of reality over the delusion of superstition. Ironically the delusion that lets people down is the same one that then gives them comfort and strength.

Looks like Shimrod is wrong. Christians can indeed have it both ways...

I finally got around to watching the sad but compelling Stephen Fry two part series on being gay last night. The common link in persecution seems to be hiding homophobia in a cloak of religion.   Uganda had a pastor who said rape of a woman was better than consenting sex between two men in the eye of God. A government minister is still trying to get parliament to legislate the death sentence for being gay and has outlawed medical charities combating HIV in the (large) gay community. Presumably including the lesbian who was corrective raped at 14 to cure her of her budding sexuality. That she fell pregnant and was HIV+ from the ordeal being here nor there. Oh, the minister is an ex Catholic priest. ...   In Iran they are hanging people for being gay. God wants it apparently. In California a church group is charging parents thousands of dollars to cure your teenage offspring of the sin. Usually ending up with deep phycosis and lifelong mental health issues.

So... remind me.   How awful are these militant atheists this and other threads warn us about? Bigotry devalues humanity and I for one don't want to be associated with turning the clock back on human social evolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 06:19 AM

'ere, Messiah M, you are right you know and it was a mighty co-incidence (read 'hand of god') that the words 'plenary indulgence' popped into my head unannounced this morning. I was pondering on how to make more money for our church when said phrase sprang to mind. I remembered my history lessons when various clergy used used to sell time off in purgatory using these plenary indulgences. Now, the Catholic church has disassociated with all such things which leaves a gap in the market.

Anyone who is feeling guilty about their perfectly normal sexuality due to bigotry induced psychosis should come to us. For £20 or so we can sell them a plenary indulgence or, better still, an aabsolute pardon. Now, you may think this is cynical preying on the vulnerable but that is far from the truth. What we are offering is a service and services should be paid for. What is more we are far cheaper than a trick cyclist, we remove all the guilt and fear of punishment and considering the number of people who have had their lives ruined by other religions we could make a bomb.

Sorted!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 07:24 AM

Yeah but only if we can screen applicants. One I can think of, we'd have to give him his money back when we fail to inhibit the bigotry gene. Handing over money in leiu of becoming a respectable member of society isn't the answer. Make the buggers come forward for compulsory screening and cure. That's the way!

We can of course plagiarise their technique. Blame their father etc and their lack of belief in our collection box.

You know, the only thing that concerns me is the feeling that starting a religion would have a purpose.

Oh.

Silly me.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 11:10 AM

"natural selection may be one of the mechanisms of evolutionism but is powerless to turn microbes to man over however long"

The whole of evolutionary theory summed up in one sentence. You can't boil the whole of evolution into a single sentence as Steve said. Get specific if you want to challenge the theory. Give me details!

"do you know of any definite examples?"

What? Of a microbe evolving into a man? You know what, you've stumped me there.


The thing is Pete, it's getting increasingly difficult to discuss this with you for several reasons:

1) You do not listen.

2) You make no attempt to understand.

3) You appear to read what other people say who share your point of view and accept it unquestioningly.

4) You're not really interested in discourse between religion and science as it threatens your world view.

5) You have made no attempt to accept science as a process of seeking fundamental truth.

6) Disturbingly, you believe the Bible literally which means:

(a) You believe the heavens were created in one day.

(b) The earth and everything on it was made in days after.

(c) Man has dominion over every living thing (an evil notion to be sure).

(d) You should stone people to death for cussing their parents

(e) A bloke was swallowed by a whale, he survived then was puked up.

(f) Everyone who has ever believed in any other god apart from your god who has ever lived is wrong.

(g) A man could walk on water (apart from Paul Lambert).

(h) The death penalty for these things (amongst others):

(aa) Being the victim of rape.

(bb) homosexuality (a normal variant of human sexuality).

(cc) Blasphemy

(dd) Being a stubborn and rebellious son

(ee) breaking the sabbath (Whichever sabbath you believe in)

(ff) worshiping idols (go figure)

etc etc

. . . and so on. All that is before we even get to murdered kids to appease this kind and gentle god, all the people he personally visited suffering on and killed in the flood and other god-made punishments. All things that if you believe the bible is literally the word of god like wot he says it then you must condone, as he is infallible. Are you really comfortable with that?

So you'll forgive me if I wonder if there is a slight problem with rationality here amongst the creationist/literalist. It might explain the lack of wanting to engage in reasonable discussion.

I'm mean, you couldn't make it up could you?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 03:20 PM

shimrod- best I can see ,most of the creationist reasoning appeals to natural processes with the exception being the creation event itself.
that is not to say of course that other miraculous events following in the bible have to be explained naturalistically .if I am going to believe in God, surely it is senseless to think that he be unable to facilitate the creation event, provide a sea creature able to swallow and vomit a prophet, and raise the Saviour from the dead, among other things recorded in scripture.
so I say again - what you posit are events and processes that are contrary to known science.
something from nothing via no one
miracle without miracle maker.
who is he that wants it both ways?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 04:06 PM

So why didn't he stop the whale from swallowing the bloody prophet in the firt place?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 04:07 PM

Grrr first grrr

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 04:22 PM

grishka- I read the main article and some of the links, to see if there was anything beyond the assertions of the first text,- which was merely dogmatic interpretation of data.
I admit to being surprised by whale legs but was not disappointed to find that this had been covered in CMI site eg- strange tale of the whales leg.
as to charges of stupidity,- that is usually evolutionist/atheist language. witness your co-believer under your post.
I think that there are a number of reasons why evolutionists embrace their belief. it is assumed as fact, peer pressure, not being exposed to counter evidence, culturally imbibed , and in some cases there is a drive to discredit biblical Christianity. I also believe there is spiritual blindness bought on by the devil, and human rebellion against God.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 05:02 PM

human social evolution...musket?
not sure what exactly that is, but since you like to highlight Christian and other religious abuses, perhaps we should include evolutions atrocities in Nazi Germany, USSR, n. korea, abuses and murders of Australian aboriginies for experimentation, and abortion of demand - after all Darwinism has shown us that we are only re -arranged pond scum, rather than the dignity of being the creation of God !?.
is that going to bring any solace to the parents of children in palliative care. to your credit you have previously acknowledged the value of hospital chaplains ,even though you personally refuse Christian faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 05:27 PM

so, stu, you ask me for specifics whilst not giving any yourself.
I did not think I was that unclear.
just give me an example please, of an unquestionable case of a mutation conferring new information, as opposed to losing,rearranging or perhaps duplicating .
here is something specific and basic to the grand theory of evolution.
life has only been demonstrated to come from life.
the idea that it did happen can only be accepted by faith.
sounds like a religious position to me.

though I could comment on all your bullet points ,I would be taking a lot of time that could be better used.
you make it increasingly difficult to discuss anything with you by piling up point scoring snippets. I think I covered enough for the time being.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 05:29 PM

"Something from nothng via no-one."

You hate that thought, don't you pete? But just because you hate it doesn't make it wrong. Postulating a maker merely leads to more questions, for example:

- Where did the maker get his materials from?

- Where did the maker come from?

- What is the maker made of?

- Who made the maker?

- Who made the maker's maker etc., etc., etc.

You see? Doesn't solve anything! Unless, of course, your faith prohibits you from asking such questions? In which case:

- You're a big cheat like Barry(?) Humphries the "God does miracles to get me out of the shit" pillock.

- There's no point in discussing this any further because I'm not playing by your rules!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 06:58 PM

Pete (01 Nov 13 - 04:22 PM), good to see that you still have a firm grip on the flag. It would be too sad otherwise.

Please link us to a website that has the scientific details to your satisfaction. We know that you will oppose all other theories, so you can spare your words of protest. As I wrote, I see no point in discussing science here at all.

However, your views about the motives of scientists and theologians may be interesting.

By CMI, you mean "chronic mental illness"? You consider that more polite than "stupid"? Do you doubt that whales have leg bones (- which question could be answered easily and conclusively by any Japanese whale butcher)?

Those "evolutionists" (including the majority of Christian theologians) who know about your completely logical evidence, can either understand it or not. Those who do not, must be worse scientists than yourself - presumably the minority, since you do not claim to be an outstanding scientist.

Thus, you seem to be saying that a large number of scientists consciously act against their own better knowledge. Did I understand that correctly?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 08:01 PM

I am not sure, grishka, whether you misread me or just being sarcastic.
CMI- is creation ministries international [creation.com]. I find most of my info there.
I have no idea if many scientists act against their better knowledge, but I do know that a good many don't believe Darwinism.
I do believe that many only allow an interpretation of evidence that supports their a priori position. I would say that was mostly not consciously ,for the reasons I previously gave.
occasionally there have been deliberate deceivers ,imo, such as hackyls fraudulent embryo drawings , still sadly in some textbooks recently.

I have answered those before, shimrod. you don't accept my answers. that's your prerogative, but you are still left with no explanation.
at least I have something to posit. your rules are material explanations only . I don't play by your rules either.
best wishes    pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 09:35 PM

Oh you who would indulge pete... he has demonstrated in the last several posts that he he is no more than fascist scum. I knew it all along, but now I must thank him for making it plain to the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 03:41 AM

"I have answered those before, shimrod. you don't accept my answers."

No you didn't, pete! All you did before was to fob me off with some pious claptrap about ineffability. Scientists don't do ineffable.

"CMI- is creation ministries international [creation.com]. I find most of my info there."

So you don't cast your net any wider then, pete? Why not? Are you afraid that you might learn something that might prick your ridiculous 'spiritual comfort bubble'?

"I do believe that many only allow an interpretation of evidence that supports their a priori position."

Words fail me at this point!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 04:23 AM

Best to chip away at small chunks. Be specific. That way, nobody gets to move in mysterious ways.

pete says that I support chaplaincy yet denounce Christianity. So do about a third of our chaplaincy team you prat. Two Imams, a Rabbi and a man from the Sikh temple nearby are on the rota list, and we can access through them leaders of other faiths.

They have something in common. They can and do all speak with and offer comfort to people of different and no faith. The listener, the empathiser, the friend you never realised you had. The person who speaks with many patients and can help you put perspective to your own anxiety. The well connected helper who can have a word, advocating on your behalf with a multitude of community assets.

Occasionally they will pray with you. If that is what you want. The psychological benefits of prayer are well documented. However, mind over matter and all that. It can only bring comfort if you believe it to.

What is known in reality circles as the placebo effect.

If you want to pray, pray for those being oppressed by religious zealots and manipulators of simple religious folk. Pray for gay people in countries where they are a distraction for failing governments. Ditto if your faith, colour or gender goes against you.

Whatever you do. Try not to pray for your own comfort. That belies the vanity of supposed pious people.

Who aren't really pious at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 07:05 AM

Excellent, Pete. I did not know about your CMI, but now that I do, your statement makes sense: whenever you see something related to evolution theory, you feel obliged to have the refute ready, as given by Creation Ministries International. A fascinating website, featuring a brief Q-and-A page. The principal claim seems to be "Science cannot disprove anything in the Bible, whereas the CMI can show that some claims of some evolutionists are intrinsically absurd, recognizable for anyone capable of logic, regardless of one's faith".

Now scientists frequently disagree among each other on their hypothesizing interpretations of specific observations. It is therefore easy to see that at least one of the hypotheses must be effectively wrong. However, if they can be caught to be intrinsically contradictory, in other words defying formal logic, opponents within the scientific community would be happy to point that out. If they fail to do so, they fail their own interest; if the assert the opposite, they also act against their better knowledge.

I am not sure whether the CMI claims the fundamental theorems of modern science to be intrinsically contradictory or just incompatible with Bible literalism. The conflicting theorems include the very foundations of physics, chemistry, and genetics, far beyond controversial aspects of evolution theory, let alone incidental facts such as whales' legs. Most of the Wiki article I mentioned is merely incidental (and possibly inaccurate), meant to be illustrative for readers who do not want to delve deeper into science.

Consequently, the CMI followers should insist that their children be taught Biblical physics, chemistry, geology, geography, bio-chemistry, and biology.

To be sure, conspiracies in sciences (and elsewhere) do occur, and so does stubborn insistence on preformed ideas in spite of evidence. Generally, older ideas have a huge head start on new ones, but exceptions are imaginable. What I have never seen is such a giant conspiracy, covering not only the scientific establishment, but an overwhelming majority of theologians (often reluctantly sacrificing their personal inclination, and even defying pressure from their superiors!) and other philosophers, many of whom have proved independent thinkers on other subjects.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 09:00 AM

Steve Shaw

Darwin was in the unenviable position of having to persuade a sceptical scientific community and potentially hostile religious forces that evolution is a self-evident fact

You seem to be working to a curious definition of self-evident. Why do you need to persuade someone of the self-evident? Anyway, that is not what Darwin did in the passage I drew attention to. He didn't say "Look, here is some evolution. Look, here is some more.", he said "Look, this is what Lamark said about the descent of species from other species. This is what Geoffroy Saint-Hilaire said about species being 'various degenerations of the same type'. Here is what the Dean of Manchester (Yes!) said. Here is what Professor Grant said." and many more. He is not putting over the self-evident fact of evolution, he is putting over the idea of evolution as the explanation of the facts we see before us. What we do see is the living world in all its glory and the fossilized remains of living organisms of the past. It IS self-evident that some organisms are strikingly similar while others are utterly different. Until the early nineteenth century, It was generally believed that each species had been separately created and that the extinct species had been lost in the flood. The NEW idea was that existing species are, as Darwin put it, " the descendants by true generation of pre-existing forms". I think that you and I can agree on which we think is the best explanation. Darwin did not say that evolution was self-evident so, by your analysis, he is a fool.

So you're saying there there is a possibility that evolution doesn't happen.

Well, I was quoting Stu but yes, that is exactly what I am saying because that is how science works. As soon as you say that a theory or an idea (which evolution is) is "true" it stops being science and becomes belief.

I'm open to philosophical arguments ripe to be shot down

No you aren't. You dismiss them as "philosophical carpings". "ripe to be shot down"?! Who do we trust, Professor Sir Karl Popper, Fellow of the Royal Society, Fellow of the British Academy or Steve Shaw, retired schoolmaster of Bude? You still haven't responded to my requests for your comments on Stu's suggestion to pete that he "do some work though to familiarise yourself with the philosophies and methodologies that make 'science' what it is". Advice you could follow yourself.

Grishka

Thanks for the link to the Wikipedia article about "Evidence of common descent". Interesting stuff.

Musket

I see evidence for evolution all over the place. Or at least. (And this is the clincher) I observe what is explained by no alternative theory.

Sounds good. You'd better make it clear whether you mean Evolution or Darwin's Theory of Evolution though. Steve gets very annoyed about that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 09:41 AM

What is self-evident is that evolution takes place. Self-evident means that you don't need to be a genius, or even a scientist, to see it (whether you recognise it or care about it is a different matter). What is not self-evident is the explanations of its mechanisms. If something is self-evident it means you'd be a fool to deny it. This is why, among many other reasons, pete is a fool. Back to those testicles. It is self-evident that the right testicle is to the right of the left testicle. It does not take science, or a genius, to work it out because it doesn't need any working out. It's just there, just like evolution. If you're the kind of "philosopher" who would waste time arguing that I can't prove that the right testicle is to the right of the left testicle, or that testicles might not even exist at all, then you're not worth the bother. Evolution has been going on for a lot longer than we humans have been thinking about it, therefore it is a nonsense to suggest that we can have a valid opinion that it does not occur. The fact of evolution is nothing to do with science. The explanation of the fact is where all the science lies. Now Dave suggested we went back to talking bollocks so you will note that I am honouring that call literally. And possibly also not.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 11:46 AM

"though I could comment on all your bullet points ,I would be taking a lot of time that could be better used.
you make it increasingly difficult to discuss anything with you by piling up point scoring snippets. I think I covered enough for the time being."

My post was a deliberate attempt to demonstrate the worthlessness of petty point scoring. That you won't address it point by point says more about how you are willing to communicate your faith than it does about me writing it, and I didn't for a second believe you would address a word of it. You rather unfairly accused me of equivocation only to equivocate yourself - again.

My position is utterly clear: I believe science is the best philosophical system we have for learning the fundamental truth of the nature of ourselves and our universe. It's not perfect, but nearly everyone I have met in the course of my research have been generous, honest and genuinely curious, and are great people to spend time with. I don't believe in any gods, but I don't rule them out either, I simply require evidence of their existence and a single source is not enough to convince me of anything at all, let alone the existence of a supernatural being.

"after all Darwinism has shown us that we are only re -arranged pond scum"

Wow - what a sad and derisory view to take of the Earth and all that lives on it Pete, and I Darwin certainly didn't think that. Pond scum are actually rather wonderful and astonishing organisms, given they've been around for around 3 billion years. It's all good, all wonderful and we are an intrinsic part of the same ecosystem.


"CMI- is creation ministries international [creation.com]. I find most of my info there.",/I>

One book, one website. CMI is a complete joke, and there's way to much wrong with the content it presents to even start on here. It's pointless trying to refute as it is largely senseless in the first place. It looks credible though (check out their 'peer reviewed journal', it is a slightly sad, amateurish parody of the real thing)' stick a grid and wavey white lines on stuff and to some people it seems 'scientific'.

Pete's taken a kicking here, but he is an excellent teacher. Pete is a main of faith, and he rejects the modern world view born of and developed by rational enquiry since the enlightenment. He represents a large number of people who have adopted an absolutist world view that by it's very nature cannot be questioned, for the very act of questioning it is a heresy in itself; an adherent would destroy their own world view by doing so.

The real issue here is how can we deal with this sort of extremism? How do you discuss science with people who don't recognise ANY other system of philosophy other than their own as legitimate?

These people are causing real damage to our children's education, they are beginning to influence politics (especially in the US) and they are fundamentally dangerous people who cause real suffering, for instance the shutting down of abortion clinics in Texas last week, which is typical of the oppression the extremist elements of the Abrahamic religions visit on women. I don't see much compassion or love coming from these people, much less peace and understanding and there is an underlying aggressiveness in their rhetoric.

How can we engage in dialogue with people who don't want to listen?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 12:19 PM

Well Stu, this thread is full of pettiness, begrudgery and point scoring... (apart from me and musket of course).

You wait a while until shaw, stringsinglet, gnomet, shitroad and the rest of the cut and paste police have had their afternoon nap and got their thumbs well up their collective bums and what passes for minds firmly in neutral...then watch their smoke

And don't even think of critising THEM.. or the highest sin.. making a spelling mistake or a comma in the wrong place!!!..lawks a mercy!! you will hear the shrieks, yelps and the rending of garments from these self opinionated oafs, a mile away.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 12:35 PM

"I repeat. He wants compulsory testing and a register of one section of society based on choice of partner rather than clinical risk. Testing cannot lead to cure, so there is no point. It is already an offence to knowingly have unsafe sex if you have a sexually transmitted disease, so he fails to make a point."

Ian... You are deliberately spreading misinformation about my views, fortunately, only your acolytes here seem to be paying any attention to what you are printing.   Thank you Pete, your opinion of me is not misplaced and even as an atheist, I admire your guts and faith in standing up to such a shower.
I repeat that the origin of the universe is beyond the understanding of humanity and a belief in "god" has always been beneficial to society.....if "god" happens to be the life force, it is hard to deny that we were created by "god".

Ian, as male homosexuality contains by far the highest levels of sexual transmitted diseases(70% of all new cases of syphilis and HIV, compulsory testing would certainly be based on clinical risk and not sexual preference. As I have already said, if these infection rates pertained to any other demographic, I would be supporting compulsory testing for that demographic.

The biggest problem with HIV/Aids is the very large numbers of male homosexuals who have not yet been diagnosed yet carry the virus.
The last study by CDC made clear that over 30% of those who tested positive were completely unaware that they had been infected.
Compulsory testing would have to run in conjunction with increased contact tracing, which would stop the spread of the disease in those who are unaware of their condition.

You are a disgrace to the medical profession....if you ever had anything to do with it....to allow your agenda to determine your views on this issue.......Isn't the irradication of the epidemic of sexual disease amongst male homosexuals, more important than your "belief" in equality under a Capitalist system?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 01:02 PM

"These people are causing real damage to our children's education, they are beginning to influence politics (especially in the US) and they are fundamentally dangerous people who cause real suffering,..."

You should heed Stu's words, pete. Basically, you've been hi-jacked and brainwashed by the 'Tea-party Taliban'!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 02:10 PM

My position is utterly clear: I believe science is the best philosophical system we have for learning the fundamental truth of the nature of ourselves and our universe.

Science is not a philosophical system, it is just science. In particular, it does not have any meaning beyond itself. For example, the word Darwinism is normally used for attempts to transfer science into judgments of quality and moral justification - utterly unscientific, and usually driven by personal motives.

The search for meaning, particularly in apects of human life and society, is quite a distinct occupation. Traditional narratives did not separate those spheres, since the very notions of reality and truth were different from today's. Those who want to ignore that shift, will do justice neither to science nor to religion and the strife for a meaningful life in society.

For example, I cannot see a difference in dignity between being made of clay and descending from molecules. Dignity as such is a concept entirely strange to scientific thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 03:34 PM

I'm not a healthcare professional so how I can be a disgrace to anything medical is beyond me.

Akenaton says gay men should be forced to be tested for HIV. That's all you need to hear in order to form a view on his wickedness. It would be bad enough, but considering many gay men don't indulge in anal sex, protected or otherwise, that anal sex is a risk factor and that far more heterosexual anal sex takes place than between two men...

I repeat what the wonderful Stephen Fry asks bigots on camera. What is your fascination with anal sex?

Dio you support the idea that female members of your family are forced to have a swab stuck up their vagina against their wishes? You have just said so above when you use grown up words such as demographics.

Luckily, decent people don't force people to undergo invasive clinical procedures against their will. The many healthcare professionals and social care profession involved in reaching out to hard to reach groups find their task harder because of disgusting bigots stigmatising those they lie about caring about.

If you did care a single jot, you'd shut your filthy putrid mouth. But you don't care, you just want to blame them for society's ills. Watching "Out There" on the telly this last week, we were shown how backward evil people spout their poison on the likes of Uganda, USA, Iran and Russia. Well, until they curl up and die, bigots still exist in decent countries.

And that's sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket again
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 03:47 PM

To be honest snail, I don't get hung up about the definition of the word evolution. I know what it means, the dictionary definition seems to be what I assume it to be, and what the flying fuck it has to do with a book I have never read is beyond me?

I use the term "one more time" but I can't wax lyrical about Britney Spears, so why are you confusing your reading of my comments with a theory I didn't make reference to?

Oh. The person who said above that the origins of the universe is beyond the understanding of humanity forgot to say that it beyond his understanding. Many people are beginning to put the bricks together and it is fascinating. I only wish I understood it more than I do or indeed can do. However, I don't judge discovery by the limits of my own understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 07:45 PM

"after all Darwinism has shown us that we are only re -arranged pond scum"

Wow - what a sad and derisory view to take of the Earth and all that lives on it Pete, and Darwin certainly didn't think that. Pond scum are actually rather wonderful and astonishing organisms, given they've been around for around 3 billion years. It's all good, all wonderful and we are an intrinsic part of the same ecosystem.

Cheers, Stu. This is the best post of the thread. Not least because it throws into sharp relief the dismal and leaden view of pete and his sorry ilk, revealing them as the proto-fascist and devious scumbags that they really are. Imagine a world run by these horrid people. Freedom would become a word of the past, just as truth is a word of the past to Snail (who, I note, no-one ever rushes to support - what an embarrassment!)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 08:15 PM

""Don't shout at me wizjet there really is no need.


I always thought you had something missing in your sad life how I am sure.""

I have a happier life than you could ever aspire to, and my skills and qualifications are known to many UK members in the real world.

I feel for you, I really do, that the only way that you can feel close to adequate, is to invent talents, qualifications and experiences which are entirely spurious, and so obviously ridiculous that they highlight your lack of self esteem and confidence.

It saddens me, that the only way in which you can feel any positive emotion is by belittling those who make you feel so insignificant.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 08:33 PM

""I thought it was a TR4 - Moses came down the mountain in his Triumph. Ah well, just goes to show what I know...""

Think, O vertically challenged one!

The four wheeled TRs, from the 4 onwards, would skid if somebody spat on the pavement(sidewalk), and trip over a box of matches.

Of course he came down on two wheels, but I'd plump for the 1962 650cc Trophy TR6SS, with the two into one straight through exhaust and pre unit construction engine and gearbox.

Going up Box Hill, that could be heard all over Israel.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 08:40 PM

""Mudcat rule is: those who object might reply, those who agree are likely just to nod silently.""

I've always found that those who agree with me are countering those who don't in much the same proportion as those who object are countering me.

I think you have a logical fallacy there Grishka.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 08:43 PM

"invasive clinical procedures"?

A simple mouth swab does the trick. Obviously you really do know nothing about clinical procedures.

Anal sex? who mentioned anything about anal sex other than yourself Ian?

The main problem with male homosexuality seems to be both the act itself...AND huge rates of promiscuity involving very many sexual partners and in many cases an addiction to anonymous sex.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 09:36 PM

""The last study by CDC made clear that over 30% of those who tested positive were completely unaware that they had been infected.""

Should not that be 100%, given that nobody is aware that he has been infected with anything, unless symptoms appear, or he tests positive.

Specifically speaking of HIV, the average time before an infection shows symptoms is approximately ten years, and only 50% develops into AIDS.

30%? DUH!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 03:40 AM

The problem is Don, and sadly we see this in the media too, lazy cherry picking of figures out of context lead to trying to convince people of false facts. Usually for a reason. In a slightly more benign way, it is like The Daily M*il and what causes / cures cancers. You can make a case for anything. Some people make such cases to legitimise their awful agendas.

The pathetic attempt to falsify statistics you exposed there reminds me of other statistics that the clinical world has to take on the chin. When people die during treatment for many ailments, we compare it to how many should do and question whether a death is an outlier or not. If so, it could mean NHS trusts aren't "coding" conditions correctly or could mean wrong treatments being accepted or in some cases, lack of quality of care. These are called, amongst other things, standardised mortality rates.

However, you tend to accept that newspapers, tv and many politicians shorten this to "mortality rates. " There can be only one mortality rate of course. .. 100%!

I notice that the worm is wriggling around anal sex, which he says he never mentions, and the homosexual act, which he does all the time.   Presumably he has a hang up about a couple taking it in turns to go to the bar. Perhaps they can get a simple mouth swab whilst waiting for their pint to be poured. .......

Just a note for anyone who doesn't know, such as the worm. Most sexually transmitted diseases can only be tested for by swab or biopsy of the naughty bits. The two conditions we are most concerned with, chlamydia and triggers for cervical cancer being obvious examples. The largest public health screening issue we face right now is young women from ethnic minority backgrounds not coming forward for cervical screening. I suppose the link to this thread would be that a large factor in this is backward religious leaders convincing parents that their offspring should not be sullied, even with a swab. Even, and this is important, of their own accord. Civilised society accepts that forced screening is wrong, let alone clinically effective. .....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 05:08 AM

Don,

""Mudcat rule is: those who object might reply, those who agree are likely just to nod silently.""

I've always found that those who agree with me are countering those who don't in much the same proportion as those who object are countering me.

I think you have a logical fallacy there Grishka.

Nothing to do with logic, just an observation, meant to answer the suspicion (presumably not in earnest) that I might be astroturfing. Indeed, some other Mudcat posters tend to gang up, not always successfully creating the impression of representing a genuine majority, let alone superior evidence. Also, sometimes members of a gang actually seem to despise each other.

My own posts are not always easy to understand, partly because of my clumsiness (English not being my mother tongue), partly because I want to express thoughts that are not well-known to everybody (- those who complain about that are welcome to ask me for further explanations). Given that, I am quite happy with the amount and quality of support I get, though sometimes embarrassed by misunderstandings or willful misinterpretations.

BS is a jungle, we enter at our own risk. It is silly to argue towards an imaginary referee.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 05:17 AM

Ian, you are wrong or lying again. You really must stop that if you wish to become credible again on this forum.

The mouth swab test for HIV, which is the issue we are discussing, has been used by health professionals since 2004.....surely as an NHS pen pusher, you must have come across that tiny detail?
In fact, the mouth swab test is now available to the public on the NHS!!



From the Daily Mail, there are dozens of other sources!
"A mouth swab HIV test that can deliver a result in 20 minutes has been made available on the NHS for the first time.

Doctors at a London hospital expect to carry out around 250 of the tests per month.

Barts and the London NHS Trust is the first in the UK to introduce the saliva test for NHS patients after a trial which showed it was as effective as a blood test.

Three quarters of patients questioned in a survey said they preferred it to the conventional test.

Patients tested for the Aids virus previously had to wait a week for their results.

The new test, which uses a special absorbent toothbrush to collect saliva samples from the mouth, provides a result in just 20 minutes.

Merie Symonds, head of sexual health at the Trust, said: 'Approximately a third of people in the UK who are HIV positive are currently unaware of their condition.

'There are still very real problems due to people who are not testing until they have become unwell as a result of undiagnosed HIV infection. This means that treatment that is now widely available may not work as effectively.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1185751/Mouth-swab-detects-HIV-20-minutes-available-NHS.html#ixzz2jZkfjvBY
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 05:45 AM

You are talking about the test for one STD. I am talking about the STDs people should be concerned about most, just like the filth behind Akenhateon claims to be doing.

Next.




Bart's has pioneered ways of combating HIV transmission. Their third of people who test HIV + are from their own population. The majority are both prostitutes sadly, male and female, and their unwitting clients.

Merie Symonds said a third of the population served by the services provided by their trust. The Daily Mail put It as the UK. The local CCGs are commissioning similar services where I help out, and whilst our figures are lower, and far more of heterosexual origin than inner London, the numbers of people being prescribed antiretrovirals is increasing, which is both good and bad when you think about it. It is bad enough countrywide, but whilst ever bigotry lives, hard to reach groups will always cluster in the anonymity of large cities. Mental health is another city cluster group incidentally.

I suppose once The a Daily M*il stops outing queers and bigotry in general dies out healthcare and social care professionals can continue as they are doing with limited funds, to combat sexually transmitted diseases. It doesn't help when a church group in Leeds is reminding councillors on the health overview and scrutiny committee how many votes they represent and how much money spent on homosexual health could be spent on normal people instead.

Once society has turned the clock back on queers, how about we then start on niggers and pakis? Islamophobia is popular, hope yet for you eh? Your views on travellers are also well documented, scum.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 06:55 AM

Perhaps certain people on this thread should start another, separate one about homosexuality and homophobia? We're getting WAY off topic!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 07:47 AM

True.

But each and every time bigotry rears it's putrid head, I cannot and will not let it go unchallenged.

Never.

Lies and hate cannot prevail.

In any case, what thread? This thread has no topic as discussed ad nauseum above. Atheism is not an alternative to religion, as the only alternative to religion is no religion, which is certainly not atheism. Atheism as a word means not theist. Militant means giving a shit.

Hence some of us invented the true religion in order to give the thread substance. Problem is, the substance of religion is the problem in the first place.

Anyway, combating lowlife scum does allow the introduction of the effects of militant religion, which is more on thread than some topics......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 07:51 AM

I would not have mentioned it on this thread Shimrod, had Ian not started misrepresenting my words and motives.
He finds a way of doing this on every thread.
I have made my point, the man is ruled by his agenda and would not know the truth if it bit him on the arse.
He mentioned "invasive clinical procedures" in reference to hiv testing ...I was simply making the readers aware that the test is oral or blood sample.

I will say no more on the subject in this thread, but I make a point of never knowingly lying on this forum, I just wish Ian would observe the same principle.
A liar on one subject will be a liar on others.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 07:57 AM

the test is oral or blood sample

Anything inserted through the skin or into any orifice is considered an invasive procedure.

I will say no more on the subject in this thread, but I make a point of never knowingly lying on this forum

Having just been made out to be a liar by stating HIV testing is non-invasive I suspect you will continue in the same vein (no pun intended) by saying much more on this and many other threads. I hope that I am proved wrong.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 10:25 AM

Being forced to answer a question, let alone have someone touch you without your consent is an invasion of privacy. Healthcare professionals commit criminal assault and risk losing their professional registration if they touch a person for clinical reason without their consent or advocated consent under The Mental Capacity Act 2005.

Publishing (which includes public commentary such as posting on websites) views that stigmatise and oppress people based on their sexual orientation is a criminal offence.

If you don't have the get out clause given to religions, you cannot advocate hate. (Just thought I'd get religion in there somewhere. As this is a music website, did you know that much of the anger Lou Reed out into his music was a result of being forced to undergo electro convulsive therapy to cure him of his declared homosexuality as a teenager? )

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 12:09 PM

"Science is not a philosophical system, it is just science. In particular, it does not have any meaning beyond itself. For example, the word Darwinism is normally used for attempts to transfer science into judgments of quality and moral justification - utterly unscientific, and usually driven by personal motives."

You're right, my phrasing was poor and I agree science is not so much a system of philosophy, but very closely engaged with scientific philosophy; indeed it can be difficult to find a line of demarcation between the two. I was seeking to distance the philosophy of science from the scientific method as a subject for discussion but phrased it clumsily. In this respect although science is not strictly a philosophic system, you can't be a scientist unless you address some serious philosophical issues.

Science is a system of enquiry with certain methodologies that are designed to study the truth. How do we arrive at these methods? When designing a programme of research, an experiment or gathering data how can we be sure we are not subject to bias, that our results are reflections of our own subjective reasoning or expectations? How do we interpret these results as objectively as possible?

This is one area where the philosophy comes in, as we seek to understand the nature of the common reality we all share. There are several philosophies within science (the wikipedia page on science is a reasonable introduction), and indeed philosophies within individual scientific disciplines and these are often influenced by the work of thinkers outside of our individual areas of expertise.

This is one major reason why creationists can never engage with science on equal terms; they don't have to question even the most basic assumptions of their belief system. Even the question of authorship of their primary source of information is beyond questioning as the literalists believe it is the word of god. So the very act of questioning is not in their nature. They might comment "but we're questioning your system of enquiry and the results" and they are, but they do so from a position in which they are already convinced they are right and everyone else is wrong. EVERYONE.

So even though early scientists approached the study of geology and palaeontology from a creationist viewpoint, slowly they realised the evidence did not add up and changed their views. They asked themselves difficult and searching philosophical questions and in the end decided to keep working to answer those questions rather than take someone else's word for the nature of reality, and modern science was born.

No philosophy, no science.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 02:21 PM

""Merie Symonds, head of sexual health at the Trust, said: 'Approximately a third of people in the UK who are HIV positive are currently unaware of their condition.""

There you go again!

How in hell does she know how many people, as yet untested, have the HIV virus, let alone what percentage of the total HIV positive population they represent.

Unless she has found a way of scanning the untested population of the UK, she can only be making a wild guess which cannot be supported by hard scientific evidence.

Statistical analysis only works if you have certain basic facts. She does not!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 02:33 PM

Fair enough at face value Don that isn't what she said. The Daily M*il paraphrased her and left out the base for the estimation, which isn't normally a great way out.

The problem with healthcare is that you have to plan on prediction. The good news is that public health is rather good at it. In my old patch when I chaired an authority, our director of public health said we should budget for 17 of a particular emergency intervention for a given year. Out of a population of 230, 000, this seemed too impressive to me. I was wrong and I won't get churlish over our having to fund 18 not 17. (At £200k per patient, we did have to ensure the slush fund was intact. ..)

None of this is relevant to the issue here though. A newspaper misquotes in order to get a story. A fool likes this story because it somehow feeds his hatred of people different to him. Sadly it started as good news. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 05:54 PM

Steve Shaw
What is self-evident is that evolution takes place. Self-evident means that you don't need to be a genius, or even a scientist, to see it (whether you recognise it or care about it is a different matter). What is not self-evident is the explanations of its mechanisms. If something is self-evident it means you'd be a fool to deny it.

I was right, you are working to a curious definition of self evident.

Back to those testicles. It is self-evident that the right testicle is to the right of the left testicle. It does not take science, or a genius, to work it out because it doesn't need any working out. It's just there, just like evolution.

I'm happy to take your word for it as to the presence and arrangement of your testicles which, you would seem to be telling us, are available for all to see. Could you show me some evolution that I might see, hear, feel or otherwise directly experience?

If you're the kind of "philosopher" who would waste time arguing that I can't prove that the right testicle is to the right of the left testicle, or that testicles might not even exist at all, then you're not worth the bother.

No, I'm not. Might I suggest that you address yourself to what I am actually saying rather than making up a load of bollocks and attacking me for that.

truth is a word of the past to Snail (who, I note, no-one ever rushes to support - what an embarrassment!)

Not directly perhaps but -

Stu
Although we can't say for 100% evolution is true...

Shimrod
If I have faith in anything, I have faith in the scientific method. I also have faith that there's no such thing as absolute truth.

I also seem to recall that TIA, before he went off in a huff, was very strong on religion not fulfilling the criterion of falsifiability.

So unlike the overwhelming support for the "Evolution is true." doctrine. Er... I even asked your co-messiah what he thought about it and he evaded the question. Now he says "I see evidence for evolution all over the place. Or at least. (And this is the clincher) I observe what is explained by no alternative theory.". Quite a long way from "True" or "Self-evident".

I have quoted Popper, Einstein, Dawkins, Darwin and many others in support of my position. You have brushed them all aside. From you we get "Evolution is true" (Steve Shaw says so.) "Evolution is self-evident." (Steve Shaw says so.) Never mind your testicles, show us your support.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 06:06 PM

Mudcat ate my cookie.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 06:23 PM

musket, you said, I think , that you" see evidence of evolution all over the place....."
snail seemed to applaud that [with some proviso].
I would say that ,no, you don't, Darwinian or not, but natural selection may be observed. this is not the same thing as the claim that one kind of animal gave rise to another, or that stu,steves wonderful complex pond scum eventually produced people.
that is what I mean by equivocation. I say it again, as it has not , so far as I know, been demonstrated that one type of animal can be a subject of selection beyond the info encoded in its dna.
a dog kind for example is a dog whether dingo, dacshound,or Doberman.
mind you, dawkins did say something about evolution being observed but that no one was around to observe it!

seems I need to remind some of you ,too, that creation was believed long before USA politics . tea parties in England are quite apolitical!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 07:07 PM

"Mudcat ate my cookie"? I wish mudcat was a Frenchman who ate snails! For your information, oh thou who art scared of truth, Richard Dawkins has said that evolution is true on several occasions, so what's all this "brushing aside" bollox! Yes, the philosophy of science is an interesting area without which science would lose its base, but science has also got to be a tad pragmatic (otherwise it would disappear up its own philosophical arsehole instead of moving on for the good of mankind and the natural world), and the pragmatic side of me tells me that there is no doubt worth contemplating (which is not quite the same as no doubt whatsoever) that evolution happens, If you disagree, do apprise us of your demurrals, with full reasons. Do you not think that evolution happens? Do you think that someone, some day, will come up with a convincing counter-explanation? Ultimately, Gastropodus stalkerissimus, are you actually a closet creationist?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 01:09 AM

Funny. I've seen video of sheep tucking their legs in and rolling over cattle grids.

But I've never seen divine intervention.

I've aware that when milk bottles started coming in foil tops, Blue tits in different parts of the country learned to break the seal within a day or two.

But I've never seen prayer work as a concept.

I've seen how wolves have become many strains of domestic dog.

But never seen proof that Jesus was any more than a person who Pissed off the clerics who were doing well for themselves under the occupation.

If he existed at all.

I've seen the calculations for and thanks to my education can understand red shift which contradicts the superstitious version of the age of the universe.

But I've nothing but the translations of translations of people in no position to know the age of the earth with regard to this 7 day malarkey. If he created the universe, why the reference in days to one planet out of billions and billions?

I don't study evolution. But if the alternative is the Bible, then either Darwin and co are on the button or nobody is yet. The mythical "God did it" used to work for ignorant peasants but today's peasants aren't quite as ignorant. Or susceptible.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 02:34 AM

Well, like I said before, this stuff is getting far too serious. We are not going to convince anyone to join our religion by debate or reasoned argument. And we don't have a Spanish Inquisition to convince people of the error of their ways.

No, sorry Messiahs, the sooner we get back to bingo and bollocks the more followers we will gain.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 03:53 AM

"seems I need to remind some of you ,too, that creation was believed long before USA politics ."

Yes, and most people stopped believing in it when a better explanation came along! Now 'belief' in 'creation' seems to be confined to a bunch of sinister and vociferous religious fundamentalist fascists in the USA and at least one of their indoctrinated followers in the UK!

By the way, Musket, I thought that your last post was spot-on! I hope that you've read it, pete!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 04:29 AM

"Stu
Although we can't say for 100% evolution is true..."

This comment is taken a tad out of context . . . to all intents and purposes evolution is happening, and is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 04:41 AM

Oi Dave, I've made a concerted effort to talk real bollocks over the last few days and I've even got Snail talking frank bollocks as well (or, more accurately, even franker bollocks). Pete talks utter brainless bollocks about everything he turns what passes for his mind to and bonkers conkers talks bollocks about nothing at all (though admittedly he talks colourful bollocks, and by that I don't mean colourful as in my own personal tackle the day after my vasectomy). Achy Tony talks nothing but illiberal bollocks as we all know. I suspect that, in bemoaning the lack of bollocks-talk around here, you are actually subconsciously lamenting the absence of Wacko, the archetypal King Bollocks. And I hope this post will, temporarily at least, satisfy your yearning for bollox-talk, because it's full of it. Hope this helps!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 04:45 AM

That's the best we can say about anything, Stu, and if we weren't allowed to say it we may as well just ditch the word "true" altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist forsmeltingly noun as concerend
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 04:49 AM

You really need to chill-axe wizzjet before your nice little pseudo educated life implodes.

In the opinion of you and most of the begrudgers on here I am a troll?

If you and the rest of your little judgmental and self opinionated clan think this, why oh wh, you prancing priapus, do you leap on my every post?.

Or is it that you are so far up your own arses that you have to demonstrate your(supposed) superior intellect at every opportunity?

Belittling people is not the way to go, you just make yourself look an even more of a self satisfied ass and bounder than you already are..

THAT, my dear phony, is a real sense of insecurity and a tremendous lack of self esteem..I have told you before I am one to many for you.

If,however, you insist on making a bigger clown and oaf of yourself..Bring it on!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 05:25 AM

""Belittling people is not the way to go, you just make yourself look an even more of a self satisfied ass and bounder than you already are..""

Pity you don't apply the same standards to yourself jerkoff.

""THAT, my dear phony, is a real sense of insecurity and a tremendous lack of self esteem..I have told you before I am one to many for you.""

We've all heard your incredible self aggrandisement with spurious feats of skill and knowledge you obviously don't possess.

Being called a phoney by a double dyed pseud like you amounts to a complement, for which I thank you!

Now Foxtot Oscar and stop interupting the grownups.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket being spherical
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 07:02 AM

You realise of course, my dear associated gnome, that in the eyes of some here, everything I say is bollocks. Even the serious bits, which to be fair are brushing pete aside or shouting at pond scum. Nice that pete doesn't have time for pond scum, because I don't have time for Akenhateon either.

The emphasis on bollocks has been missing ever since The Rev. Spooner called out to Betty Swollox and she took umbrage. Took Co Messiah S's bingo takings too to what we can ascertain, although a music shop in Camelford has recently managed to sell that chromatic harmonica they couldn't shift.

Just saying like......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket's new game
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 07:11 AM

Tell you what. We can start a new game to replace the bingo.

I come up with a quote from a Mudcat member and you have to guess who it is?

We'll start with something easy.. Ready?



well said ebbie...Im sick of all this PC stuff about Gays..Royal or otherwise.You cant turn on your TV or radio without Gay "culture " ouzing out. How many Gay folk singers do we know?...


Any guesses?

I'll give you a clue. He only says what he does in order to help gay people.

Getting warmer?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Muskets's new game
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 07:22 AM

Any idea yet?

Ok. Here's another quote from another thread by the same caring person.

If you carry on reading though, you will get five not ten points.


I must give my support to "cruiser"in this thread. He has had the courage to say what many of us feel about homosexuality, but are too intimidated by the politically correct "Gay"pressure group.
I too think homosexuality is repugnant,against nature and based on psychological problems.
Cruiser says the answer is to turn away and let the homosexuals get on with their lives,but unfortunatly this is getting harder and harder to achieve, as "gay culture " ouzes from every media orifice,
with all its nasty innuendo,like little boys behind the bike shed
and god help anyone who tries to stop them....Ake
PS At least folk music seems to be pretty clear of this scourge.
Just shows what well adjusted ,sensible hetros we are.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist forsmeltingly noun as concerend
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 07:44 AM

Now now wizzjet don't get personal!! If you cant take a little well deserved criticism maybe you should foxtrot oscer a give us all a break from your temper tantrums..

Btw nothing I say about you is meant to be a compliment..you are, always was and forever will be, a pompous judgmental , self satisfied, cake eating cad..so there!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 11:37 AM

Yay! Thanks, co-Messiahs. Your words of wisdom were a joy to behold but getting good old Conc on the case was the real stroke of genius. I have not seen so much bollocks in days :-)

I am not very good at games though, Messiah M. Is it Rudolph Hess?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 11:42 AM

"Belittling people is not the way to go,..."

Normally I'd agree with that, 'concerened'. But you've got 'kick me' stencilled on your trouser seat!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist forsmeltingly noun as concerend
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 12:05 PM

Do you really think so shitroad..?

Coo!!, I am gutted,except, if you remember I am of the gender that wears skirts.

Also if you think I am worried one jot about what people think of me you have the wrong pollack.

I will leave that to the academics? like wizzjet the sulky baby and the rest of the slat kicking out of cot buffoons.

have a nice day

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket the game master
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 12:21 PM

No, it isn't Rudolph Hess. I can see where you are coming from though. Here's a clue. Both Hess and the mystery fun guy have connections with Scotland.

Any thoughts?

Here's another clue from the archive;


Lily Festre....You are quite wrong to state unequivocably that there is no link between MALE homosexuality and the abuse of boys.

And a bonus quote from the same thread..


Alan dont let us mince our words, the real issue is whether or not male homosexuals can be trusted with the personal care of young children.



And a further bonus? An insight into the caring side..


However, I still think this is a very serious matter and chilren are being placed in a very dangerous position through our adherence to PC.
Children brought up by a "same sex couple" also face a young life of taunting and bullying by their peers.
Something which never seems to have been taken into account by the authorities, but which can blight a child's life forever.



This quiz is brought to by Musket Entertainment Ltd, In association with a fellow Mudcatter who didn't like two faced liars apparently, and thought a set of, I reckon it is at Least 200 quotes on gay lifestyle by the mystery person and pm'd me with them. Not a single one about caring for their health.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 03:33 PM

Steve Shaw

"Mudcat ate my cookie"? I wish mudcat was a Frenchman who ate snails!

A good, Shavian start.

For your information, oh thou who art scared of truth, Richard Dawkins has said that evolution is true on several occasions, so what's all this "brushing aside" bollox!

Unfortunately, he does, thus opening up the path for accusations of evolutionism from the creationists. I quoted Dawkins writing in support of falsifiability. You ignored it. You only brush Dawkins aside when he's saying things that don't fit your ideas. I quoted Darwin directly. You ignored it and attributed to him things he did not say. As for Popper, Einstein and the rest, phooey! Steve Shaw knows best.

Yes, the philosophy of science is an interesting area without which science would lose its base,[Promising!] but science has also got to be a tad pragmatic (otherwise it would disappear up its own philosophical arsehole instead of moving on for the good of mankind and the natural world), and the pragmatic side of me tells me that there is no doubt worth contemplating (which is not quite the same as no doubt whatsoever) that evolution happens,

Excellent! The penny is finally beginning to drop. That's quite a shift from -

It is a declaration of the self-evident, as in "one's left testicle is to the left of one's right testicle, unless one happens to be viewing them from the front, in which case vice versa". There, not a modicum of science in that lot. An immutable truth applying to all twin-betesticled bilaterally-symmetrical individuals since the dawn of time, no science needed to make it true.

Oh dear. Just when things were going so well -
If you disagree, do apprise us of your demurrals, with full reasons. Do you not think that evolution happens? Do you think that someone, some day, will come up with a convincing counter-explanation?

Listen carefully, Steve. I have never said evolution isn't true. I do not have any problem with evolution or Darwin's Theory of Evolution. Recently your co-messiah said "I see evidence for evolution all over the place. Or at least. (And this is the clincher) I observe what is explained by no alternative theory." I entirely agree. Have this done up in cross stitch and hung over your bed. Have it tattooed on your scrotum which you seem to take such delight at gazing upon. This isn't about whether or not "Evolution is true.", it's about how science works. If you want evolution and Darwin's Theory of Evolution to be part of science, they have to obey the rules, they have to abide by the underlying philosophy. You aren't just being pragmatic, you are actively opposed to the philosophy of science. You tried to argue that Popper was wrong! Who the @$£&^%! do you think you are? This is about whether to choose science or religion. It is about whether to choose reason or faith. I have quoted Jack Cohen before but it's worth saying again - "Some people think that science is about knowing things. It isn't, it's about not knowing things. Knowing we leave to religion." Make up your mind which side you are on.

Ultimately, Gastropodus stalkerissimus, are you actually a closet creationist?

Getting a bit desperate aren't you Steve? I could hardly ask for a more definite sign that you know you've lost the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 03:46 PM

My My....just popped back into Mudcat and what do I find....Ian has a new toy.
I never thought that even he, could be sad enough to trail through ten years of my posting history and print pieces completely out of context.
My posting history is copied in full in the archive and is available for anyone to read in context.
I have never concealed my opposition to homosexual marriage, or that I consider male to male sex dangerous and unhealthy....the figures speak for themselves on that score.
The abuse of young mainly young boys and young men by adult male priests must give people pause for thought, given the historical context of homosexual behaviour.

All that makes not one whit of difference to the epidemic of sexually transmitted disease which affects male homosexuals and indirectly every other one of us.
It is in the interests of homosexuals to see this epidemic ended, but people like Ian are perfectly happy to see the epidemic continue by sticking to the failed procedures of the last ten years.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 05:03 PM

"Stu
Although we can't say for 100% evolution is true..."

This comment is taken a tad out of context . . . to all intents and purposes evolution is happening, and is true.

Yes, Stu, you are right, for all practical purposes the prevailing scientific orthodoxy is taken as "true". Anyone working in evolution will take Evolution and Darwin's Theory of Evolution for granted. Anyone working in mechanics or ballistics or planetary motion (with one exception) will assume that Newton's theories are true (even though we now know they aren't). They will be the context within which they work. That isn't the point.

One of Steve's main weapons against pete and his chums is that "Evolution is true." If all that means is that scientists behave as if it was true "to all intents and purposes" then you have handed the game to the creationists. They are quite entitled to say "These evolutionists behave as if evolution is true even though they know it isn't really. That's what we've been saying all the time." "Evolution is true." implies more than that. It suggests a degree of certainty to compete with literal truth in the Bible and that isn't what science does.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 05:24 PM

I knew you would not be good to your word, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton - PM
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 07:51 AM

...
I will say no more on the subject in this thread, but I make a point of never knowingly lying on this forum ...



but I thought you would have lasted more than a few hours. I am disappointed.

I think I am getting there Musket but something is telling me I am missing something obvious. Someone who cannot see the irony of using 'mince' in the same sentence as homosexual? Not Conc, surely? How can a woman with 2 firsts from Cambridge (A known bed of homosexuality, pun intended), a commission in the Tanzanian navy (Well, we all know about sailors) and countless other contra indications be homophobic? Nah, can't be that. Maybe someone who has posted more recently. Hmmmm. Let me think...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 05:27 PM

Whoops - Imagine a slash-I after 'disappointed' and all will make more sense :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 06:01 PM

The wonderful thing about being a co Messiah is that others do the trawling for you and pm the quotes. Makes awful reading.

But.. In the spirit of the game, the associated gnome is getting warm but even with the answer being brazen enough to stand by some frankly disturbing quotes in full context, I reckon we need more clues...



The religious and secular who believe in marriage as an institution would ask , why should that institution be weakened by forcing it to accept those whom the vast majority of the public regard as perverts?

Well it's not only the religious who believe in the institution of marriage, in fact a huge majority all over the world hold this view and they may feel that the sexual orientation of those allowed into that institution is very much their business.

You say to me. "Don't you KNOW any homosexuals...well of course I do.
Two or three, but I know literally hundreds of people who are in conventional marriages, who went through a marriage ceremony and believe marriage means the joining of a man and woman. To many people in my neck of the woods, their wedding day has been, or will be, the most important of their lives.   They spend money on the big day, everything has to be perfect, the wedding album has pride of place in the home, the wedding picture will sit beside the pictures of children and grand children.
Most of these people see homosexuality as a perversion, and to have the institution of marriage thrown open to homosexuals diminshes its status.




Anyone got a bucket handy?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion pci
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 06:56 PM

Snail said that he's never said that evolution ain't true. Hey chaps and chapesses, it's there. In black 'n' white. Honestly, Snail, that really should be the end of our ultimately fruitless conversation, but I doubt you'll leave it there in spite of your capitulation. Let me just say this, in sum (and don't be at all surprised if I never respond to your tiresome nitpicking ever again). The world of nature is complex, diverse, beautiful and wonderful. And Godless. Evolution is what makes it what it is, nothing else. Evolution explains all of life on earth in all it's beauty and complexity, and nothing else gets a look in, not now or for ever more. Evolution has nothing to do with science, because evolution was going on for billions of years before the first scientist ever drew breath. Science is all about what human beings think and that is a novel phenomenon, a stripling compared to the phenomenon of evolution. Science might explain evolution, but evolution is not science. Celebrate it and revel in it and stuff the up-their-own-botties philosophers. They are philosophers, not jobbing scientists who do the actual work. Celebrate the heroes, not the worriers!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 07:03 PM

Yes and that rogue apostrophe was an unspotted Apple suggestion, not my doing. I may talk bollocks, and I hope my aspirations in that direction succeed, but I will not, under any circumstances, talk illiterate bollocks! Wacko I am not!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 05:54 AM

Back to bingo it is then.

Far healthier for starterd

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 06:09 AM

I haven't tried it but I think you could substitute "God" for "evolution" throughout that passage and it would make a rant any god botherer would be proud of. (And Godless = And Darwinless?)

It's a bit confusing because only two days ago you said -
the pragmatic side of me tells me that there is no doubt worth contemplating (which is not quite the same as no doubt whatsoever) that evolution happens

I wish you'd make your mind up. Which is it, pragmatism or a fundamental truth?

I suppose you have finally answered the question you have repeatedly ignored. I asked you what you thought of Stu's urge to pete "You do have to get off your arse do some work though to familiarise yourself with the philosophies and methodologies that make 'science' what it is". You clearly think he was talking bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 07:56 AM

starters. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 08:22 AM

Here we go again!!! the collection of half arsed theorists and ginger woosy theological experts have now added gender expertise to their cut and paste skills, needless to say they all know(except musket and I of course) the square root of nothing on any of it.

The prat formally known as wizzjet has gone strangely silent..still putting your toys back in your pram sweetums?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 09:53 AM

Sigh... You let me down again, Conc. I was just getting into "ginger woosys" and the square root of nothing (wonderful expressions BTW - Almost biblical in their absurdity :-) ) when I realised you were plagiarising again. Expertise in cut and paste skills has already been attributed to you so, sorry, back to the the cell and no treats for you tonight.

There is another person who uses 'sweetums' as an insult BTW. But I am sure you are not her. She is quite malicious while you are good for a laugh. Well, to be laughed at anyway.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 10:33 AM

Now.. I look at it this way.

Conc seems to have got me weighed up alright.

Are you sure you are of the squidgy gender conc? Mrs Musket may want to trap my balls in a vice. .

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 10:48 AM

Snail, you are wasting your time (as I wrote before). We may write what we please, but should not try to argue with those who play a game with different rules - let alone harangue a non-existing referee.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 11:36 AM

I wonder if a "ginger woosy" has anything to do with a "bum inhabitant ginger cake"?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 01:20 PM

full marks musket , for creative writing.....and evading the point
...ie- you have not observed evolution.
but then its a faith position- like saying you have faith that theres no absolute truth...
are you absolutely sure of that shimrod?!

steve assures us with justifiably recognized religious fervour[snail]that" evolution explains all of life on earth...."
really?- it don't even explain how it got off the starting block!

its getting harder to find anything clean and constructive to answer,- but maybe that's part of the strategy!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formilly noan as consernd
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 01:30 PM

Now look here gomad I will fess up when I have cut and pasted but you are wrong this time..this is all me own work...laugh at..well if it gives you pleasure dear heart..I have been laughing at you lot for months.. well, sniggering in wonderment really.

Musket (blushing)i have been flirted with many time but never on a chat line..squidgy gender...naughty boy.. balls in a vice eh? Well I think most of them on here have caught their brains in a vice

shitroad, ginger woosy has everything to do with bum inhabitant ginger cake..but trying to explain it to you would be as pointless as teaching wizzjet how to sit on furniture

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 01:44 PM

I accept that my Dyson vacuum cleaner works by cyclone technology, but I haven't observed it. I accept that beer gets its bitter taste from hops, but be buggered if I know why? I accept that Mrs Musket knows a hell of a lot about certain cancers and asks patients to believe what she tells them, but I don't observe her expertise.

So why should I not accept that the findings of Darwin point to a particular theory? Out of interest, whilst I have never read anything he wrote, I have read and watched many books and documentaries explaining his theory and how it still holds in the light of better general understanding and access to tests he couldn't have dreamt of.

Ok. You may say the same for the bible. The difference being, we know the bible is translations of translations of stories, some written as fact, some written as moral stories, in the same way as American situation comedies. We know that many of the stories are lifted from much earlier stories. We know for a solid fact that the universe is older than the bible reckons, and popping out and looking at the sky is all you need to do. As you speak of scientists, my own published thesis may not have been in the realm of astrophysics, but wavelength differential was a key element of it, so red shift is something I can fully and knowledgeably accept, as whilst the fundamentals have been refined, and still are, the principle is about as certain as night following day.

Anyway pete, I hope your earlier support of bigotry, albeit from a position of ignorance, has now had a chance to disassociate itself? I don't like being told I am wrong unless I actually am. (and yes, it happens now and then.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 02:03 PM

Oh dear, Conc. Wrong again I'm afraid. I am not accusing you of cut and paste. Simply of not having an original thought in that silly little nog. The C&P joke has been done already. Just went over your head I suppose. Try again.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 04:02 PM

""sexually transmitted disease which affects male homosexuals and indirectly every other one of us.""

Just how does it affect you Ake, directly or otherwise?........unless, Naah! That can't be it

""It is in the interests of homosexuals to see this epidemic ended, but people like Ian are perfectly happy to see the epidemic continue by sticking to the failed procedures of the last ten years.""

You mean those failed procedures which have reduced it to a manageable condition, not causing sigificant loss of life expectancy?

Or those mysterious ""other considerations"" which will persist after a vaccine for HIV has been produced, leaving you free to continue your mean spirited attempts to interfere in other people's lives?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 04:41 PM

" ... but maybe that's part of the strategy."

Part of what strategy, pete? A strategic part of Satan's giant conspiracy to discredit Christianity, perhaps? Are we seeing another of your pious fall back positions here - like your ineffability cop-out when challenged to provide proof of God's existence?

Here's another challenge: Why don't you read the literature on evolution? Not the Tea-party Taliban's bullshit propaganda - but the writings of real scientists. Have you actually read Darwin or Dawkins for example?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 07:57 PM

musket- when mr dyson developed his cyclone hoover ,it was the result of operational science. I know I keep telling you, but this involves observations on a subject by repeatable experiments. this is not the domain of Darwinism.
shimrod ,I did begin to read origins but it is so boring and hard going ,I gave up. but not before reading his admission that what he proposed could equally be otherwise interpreted from the data he presented. that data is basically the study of natural selection on various forms - I remember ploughing through stuff on pigeons.
and what did he find? changes via natural or artificial selection but they were still birds, and I think still pigeons.
I have before invited you's to give me the section of the book where he demonstrates that it can go any further than that.
nothing was forthcoming- I wonder why !!
perhaps, shimrod ,you can do so from your reading of it?
I suppose I could read dawkins. stuff like how the eye is so badly designed and thus demonstrating no creator or a stupid one.
but he was wrong. the so called backward wiring is the optimal engineered design for sight.
maybe another reason he wont debate creation scientists.
of course over the years, I have read many of the posts of his disciples and I would have thought his admirers would have presented his best arguments.
but then ,you probably have!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 08:35 PM

steve assures us with justifiably recognized religious fervour[snail]that" evolution explains all of life on earth...."
really?- it don't even explain how it got off the starting block!

Well I suppose I ought to congratulate Snail for getting into bed with pete (as well as talking franker and franker bollocks as time passes...) I possess no fervour in any regard you can conjure up, pete sweetum. Au contraire. I get in trouble here for being a little on the icy-cool side (though I have to strive to not be too Spock-like). I mean, even Bonkers Conkers has me smiling indulgently instead of getting me all aereated. Accusations of "religious fervour" levelled at thoroughly non-religious chappies such as yours truly have not only been comprehensively debunked on this website by far greater minds than yours (which is actually saying very little indeed, which is meant squarely as an insult to you, not them), but also make you look like a shagged-out, intellectually-defeated utter twat (which, of course, you are). Your own doing, tragically. Old boy, evolution does indeed explain all of life on earth in all its beauty and diversity, and if you or you quasi-religious chum Snail know of a better explanation, well let's be having it, as in piss or get off the pot innit. Incidentally, in order to save you time, I said "explanation", not "blind guess". And don't get overly smug about the origin of life. Whenever and wherever that happened, 'twas a prosaic and unassuming event, no different to any other event in the course of the development of life in all its beauty and complexity, and almost certainly was one that would yield to some sort of explanation along the lines of biological natural selection. I will not be hoodwinked by religious tossers such as your good self into believing that it was a "sacred moment". You feed on that stupid notion if you like, but I'd rather eat pasta.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 09:12 PM

musket- when mr dyson developed his cyclone hoover ,it was the result of operational science. I know I keep telling you, but this involves observations on a subject by repeatable experiments. this is not the domain of Darwinism.
shimrod ,I did begin to read origins but it is so boring and hard going ,I gave up. but not before reading his admission that what he proposed could equally be otherwise interpreted from the data he presented. that data is basically the study of natural selection on various forms - I remember ploughing through stuff on pigeons.
and what did he find? changes via natural or artificial selection but they were still birds, and I think still pigeons.
I have before invited you's to give me the section of the book where he demonstrates that it can go any further than that.
nothing was forthcoming- I wonder why !!
perhaps, shimrod ,you can do so from your reading of it?
I suppose I could read dawkins. stuff like how the eye is so badly designed and thus demonstrating no creator or a stupid one.
but he was wrong. the so called backward wiring is the optimal engineered design for sight.
maybe another reason he wont debate creation scientists.
of course over the years, I have read many of the posts of his disciples and I would have thought his admirers would have presented his best arguments.
but then ,you probably have!

Well, lays'n'gelmen, I thought it necessary to reproduce the whole of this post in order to demonstrate unto you a man who professes, and revels in, his own ignorance in such a touchingly irony-free manner. Here we have a man who takes the lies of ancient and tendentious desert-dwellers (most of whom didn't exist) so literally yet who can't get on with the beautiful, simple and elegant, not to speak of neutral, writing of Darwin, a man who, exceptionally, married science to superb literary communication. Of course, he hasn't "read Dawkins", which has, as you can see all too plainly from his post, resulted in his total misunderstanding of every aspect of the man and his writings. I find it very moving, actually, that a man can so freely display his pig-ignorant claptrap for all to see, yet be so immune to embarrassment over his own crass stupidity. His skin must be even thicker than his skull.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 01:15 AM

You aren't the first to call me a naughty boy conc. Snag is, does a double first, weilder of world peace have big tits? Or are you a hairy arsed bloke? I've heard about these Internet chat rooms. .... Still, if you are the former, looks like I've still got what it takes. If you are the latter, our resident person who can't spell the name of his Egypt based hero can get excited too.

Here pete. When you mention demonstrable facts such as why Dyson sucks, don't forget the "operational science" that contradicts biblical teaching. There's a good chap.





Conc. What's your favourite colour?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 03:29 AM

I am quite satisfied that evolution explains the origin of species, and that the origin of life is an explicable event, but it has not been explained yet, and certainly not reproduced in any lab.
It occurred almost the instant the planet was cool enough.
From the common genetic pattern it most likely only occurred once.

I am sure it will be explained, and soon, but you kid yourself if you say it is already understood.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 04:18 AM

"I am sure it [evolution] will be explained, and soon, but you kid yourself if you say it is already understood.

Agreed! But that is true of many scientific models. Pete, on the other hand, has been persuaded, by sinister religious fundamentalists, that absolute truth is contained within the pages of an old book and that that account cannot, and should not, be questioned!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 04:22 AM

Not (evolution).
That is already explained and understood.

I am sure it [origin of life] will be explained, and soon, but you kid yourself if you say it is already understood.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 05:12 AM

Understanding is a process not a result. We understand how life could evolve from primordial soup but at this stage not sure which of the myriad theories give us the details. Experts will either clarify or correct me but I believe we have got as far back as being from a form of star fish?

Still have remnants in fact. We all use the remnant for one use, some for speech and. .. let's leave it at that in case we wake someone up who gets excited about such things.



Conc. My favourite colour is two colours really. Blue and White. Up the Owls!

Best not mention blue though. Might wake up another protagonist.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 06:13 AM

We understand how life could evolve from primordial soup

No we do not, and all attempts to demonstrate it have failed.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 08:48 AM

Talking of things Owlish, Messiah M, what happened last Saturday? Do I detect the hand of an almighty presence?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 08:55 AM

"the so called backward wiring is the optimal engineered design for sight."

Tosh. The eyes of some invertebrates are far superior to our own. Check out the Mantis Shrimp for example, and cephalopod eyes are superior to most tetrapod eyes as they have the blood vessels running behind the retina and can see plane polarised light. They evolved convergently though and are living proof eyes have evolved more than once. If you were to actually design an eye it wouldn't be hard to improve on the design.

Your god is a rubbish designer Pete, he's left us tetrapods with a blind spot and them pesky red-light absorbing blood vessels mentioned above. Human eyes are really quite rubbish, as we only see a tiny part of the light spectrum and our eyes are rubbish in the dark too; ever wonder why nocturnal animals rely on hearing and/or smell?


" it don't even explain how it got off the starting block!"

We'll know one day, be assured. Just because we don't understand something now doesn't mean god was involved - why would it?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 09:05 AM

Grishka

Snail, you are wasting your time (as I wrote before). We may write what we please, but should not try to argue with those who play a game with different rules

You're probably right but, in a way, it is giving Steve the opportunity to demonstrate that he does play to different rules that is part of the point. Actually, he seems to have learnt some of those rules from pete like ignoring evidence that doesn't suit you and avoiding answering awkward questions. Notice how he failed to take up the opportunity to clarify his position on whether his belief in evolution was pragmatic or fundamental or to say whether or not he thought Stu was talking bollocks. Instead he resorted to his usual tactics of playground abuse and pathetic character attacks.

Steve is potentially far more dangerous than pete or Jack the Sailor. He claims to be a scientist but is actually fundamentally anti-science, rejecting everything that makes it different from religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 09:50 AM

Yes my fellow associated gnome. The hand of a co Messiah was indeed instrumental. Screaming at the lazy buggers from the kop eventually bears fruit. In any case I got 6/1 on a win and put £20 on it.

Keith. Attempts to identify the Higgs boson took many years from prediction, ditto Bose Einstein Condensate. Doesn't make the certainty any less. Gaps in the table of elements were also just sat there waiting to be filled.

Your assertion that similar conditions couldn't work for primordial soup are somewhat strange. Are you saying that there is flaw in the reasoning?

Or (snigger) is it that God did it?



Amazing. Just getting to know conc and she (well she had better be a she) is playing hard to get. Back to my day dreaming fantasy I suppose.

Hello reality!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 10:16 AM

I said that I am sure the origin of life is explicable and not supernatural.
We have theories, but no-one knows how it happened.
If we do not know about it we can hardly be said to understand it.

Higgs did not get his prize until his particle was discovered.
It was uncertain until then.

The gaps in the table existed because they ordered the elements by atomic mass and there were gaps in that.
They had no idea why the table had to be in that periodic form to work.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 10:38 AM

Quite right, Snail (06 Nov 13 - 09:05 AM), and applying to Musket and others as well. But we should not convey the impression that we were joining the game as played by their rules, because

a) it is moot and silly (schoolyard level, as you observed) and

b) reasonable persons cannot win.

What I felt like writing I wrote once. To be honest, I had been tempted to write what you wrote on 04 Nov 13 - 05:03 PM, for the sole reason that we are miraculously back to the thread title. However, nobody cares.

As for dangers, we need not over-dramatize those arising from any Mudcat BS postings.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 11:17 AM

Steve is potentially far more dangerous than pete or Jack the Sailor. He claims to be a scientist but is actually fundamentally anti-science, rejecting everything that makes it different from religion.

Gosh, I bet your head spun and your shell almost melted as you typed that, you angry gastropod you. Heheh. Silly sod!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 11:23 AM

From the common genetic pattern it most likely only occurred once.

This seems to be the current consensus, but can't we imagine a world which possessed similar conditions with similar chemical ingredients reacting in similar ways in many different locations? Life may have started with a common genetic pattern not because it started only once but because there was only one potential genetic pattern in the race.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket in messiah mode
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 12:18 PM

We can't even be "certain" that when we press keys characters appear on the screen if Keith wants to be that pedantic. Fuzzy logic is built into just about every piece of kit that can get on the internet, and that cannot be described to the nth degree, nor predicted beyond probability boundaries. You can't use the word inexplicable and assume it to remain carved in stone. Some clever people out there chasing Nobels.

In fact, this iPad is not capable of putting what I type, only what frigging Apple reckon I want to type. It isn't even bloody Freudian!

Grishka used my name in vain just back there. Can someone explain whether I was being loved or laughed at ? Buggered if I know.



Oh conc, conc! Wherefore art thou conc?   Here, co messiah and associated gnome! Have you been scaring her off for my own good?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 12:50 PM

Well, Messiah M, I have never seen Coc, Betty Swallocks and Lilo Lil in the same room. Makes me wonder...

Grishka. Did you say Enlish was not your first language and you wished to learn? Well, sorry, but you do not seem too interested in doing so to me. It has been repeated over and over that the whole premise of this thread is nonsense. There is no such thing as militant atheism. It is just a device created in the image of religious fundamentalists to make them look vaguely sensible. The 'rules' that you like to refer to are simply to take the piss. This thread was created, for some strange reason, on the back of an earlier one that went just the same way. The rules are being adhered to by many but some, including yourself, do insist on treating it as a serious discussion. Hope this clears it up for you.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 01:25 PM

Dave, I fail to see what that has to do with my "Enlish". You are entitled (though not encouraged, in the interests of your reputation) to play by your rules, I can play by mine. My last posts were meant to remind Snail that the two are incompatible, that's all.

The OP announced a discussion at a higher level, though admittedly, one need not be a native speaker to see that he was not being honest. Nobody here supported the exact claim of the thread title (apparently originally stated by JackTS), but that does not mean that the whole topic is nonexistent. The best Mudcat threads slowly drift to the vicinity of the OP's statement or question; this one takes totally unmotivated wide jumps to some posters' favourite topics such as homophobia. I for one refuse to follow.

I enjoy humorous threads in many different senses, and participate in the fun as often as possible. This one sadly lacks humour. Actually it contains only one joke: Musket's "since Jerk went quiet, we need a trainee martyr." I say I say, he could do better if he really tried.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket extracting the urine
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 01:28 PM

We are all talking bollocks when addressing this thread.

But the exalted ones are allowed by the grace of Clapton to be ironic.

Betty Swollox she ain't. Trust me on that one.....

Anyway, back to the thread.

I managed to be embarrassing Dad at the weekend. Out shopping with my lad and his family, I noticed the shops were getting ready for Chrimbo and moaning about the fact, (I'm allowed.). I picked up a string bag of Baby Bell Edam cheeses and said, somewhat louder than I should have... "We can put this on the tree! It's its .. The little baby cheeses!"

A bit like wearing waistcoats and dancing at weddings. Or as Harvey Andrews pointed out, just being Dad.

My daughter in law pointed out I was not accompanying her, drunk or sober, to midnight mass on Chrimbo Eve. Good. Little do they know that the party animal of dubious reputation will be sound asleep with an empty Horlicks mug at the side of the bed these days come the witching hour. Dreaming of the socks and leather car atlas with matching driving gloves.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 02:29 PM

Well bugger me sideways with a bent banana or perhaps a dirty fish-hook, M Musket, if that post of yours, specifically the bit about Baby Bels, didn't send a shudder down me spine. Why, only yesterday, when I was oop north in Radcliffe, and for the first bloody time in my whole life,, I consumed a Baby Bel. I had to be persuaded that the red coating was not actual cheese and needed to be removed, before recognising that the "edible" substance within was also not cheese, at least not as one generally knows it in the accepted sense of the word. I can say with certainty that no Baby Bel shall ever pass my lips ever again. Actually, I suppose I could try eating the red wax. You'll not be dangling yer Bels off of my Christmas tree, pal!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 02:36 PM

Dreaming of the socks and leather car atlas with matching driving gloves.

I was hoping to get half a Nexus 7 but times are hard and I might have to settle for the free yet intensely annoying Tesco Hudl that I got last week with me Clubcard vouchers. Bloody capitalists. Oh Brand, where art thou...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 02:52 PM

Well gnomedtic.. not an original thought in my head?, you owld bollocks you .. who invented right wing rhetoric in Zambia you strange person..

Who was the one who taught problematic Keynesian economic theory to Arther Scargill?

who was the one who introduced the rhomboid initiative to Dr.Teeth.?.

Who was the one explained the Dorian mode to John Lennon,?

Who was the one who taught Prince Hal how to light a fart ?

and last but not least... who exposed the swinging dick, ginger woosy cake eating gobshites like wizzjet, shaw ,griska, snail, shitroad et all?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 02:55 PM

Next.......? or maybe not?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 03:21 PM

I say you fellows!!! ..wizzjets post looks on first scan quite cute and nearly clever,,did I really say that..nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh1!!

Look again playmates, it is his usual pseudo, woosy, ginger, half digested, cut and pasting crap..and I get called unoriginal?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 03:28 PM

assuming that you did not mean to set up straw men to knock down, stu ,I will surmise that I was not clear enough.
my comments were in the context of the human eye which you and dawkins think rubbish design!
I never intended any comparisons with any other creature.
even if one type can be shown to be superior, it still has limitations, after all I am only positing One, perfect all seeing.

"the notion that the eye was wired backward occurred to me as a 13 yr old when studying eye anatomy in a school science class. it took me 2 yrs of lecturing on human eye anatomy to realize why the eye is wired the way it is. the idea that the eye is wired backward comes from a lack of kn owledge of eye function and anatomy"
"the retina is probably the most complicated tissue in the whole body. millions of nerve cells interconnect in a fantastic number of ways to form a miniature "brain". much of what the photoreceptors "see" is interpreted and processed by the retina long before it enters the brain "
-an eye for creation- dr George marshall. sept 96 creation mag.

now that don't sound like rubbish design to me.
btw he was an eye disease researcher. another useful non evolutionist scientist.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 04:08 PM

"the retina is probably the most complicated tissue in the whole body. millions of nerve cells interconnect in a fantastic number of ways to form a miniature "brain". much of what the photoreceptors "see" is interpreted and processed by the retina long before it enters the brain"

Pete, dear, I know this will be hard for you to comprehend, let alone take, but this comment on its own marks out its author as a complete twat. Unfortunately, as 'twas you who decided to post it, presumably with the intention of your "proving" something to us, it marks you out as an even bigger one. However, your entertainment value remains stunning, so do carry on and don't mind me.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 04:08 PM

I dunno Conc. Surprise us with who did all those things. Even if none of them are actually original thoughts and thereby fail to prove anything whatsoever.

Messiah S - Before I went on my mission to Yorkshire I used to meet my car share partner on the TGI Fridays car park in Radcliffe. Lived about 4 miles from there and used to call in M&S foodhall quite often to see what wines were on offer as well.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 05:39 PM

Musket, fuzzy logic and computer technology is completely understood by science.
The origin of life is not.
We do not even know if it was on this planet!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 05:44 PM

The description of the retina as a powerful "preprocessor" is common knowledge among anatomists/physiologists. In fact, making "millions of nerve cells interconnect in a fantastic number of ways" is what evolution is particularly good at; many animals are known to have such "secondary brains" in a variety of places and functions. Envious computer scientists design evolutionary algorithms to result in new better computer systems and networks.

Pete, being a Biblical literalist, has yet much weaker a claim to science than the more flexible "intelligent design creationists". Essentially he disagrees with the mainstream of almost all sciences, even including history and linguistics.

The really strange thing about this thread is that whenever one side seems to have lost, the other side comes to its aid with even more preposterous argumentats. I have to agree with Dave that this is basically an orgy of self-ridicule - if you enjoy it, so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 06:03 PM

Spot on this time. Grishka, and please do not think that I was ridiculing your English. Far from it, it is far better than my knowledge of any other language, apart from bollocks and total bollocks. Although I did speak both Polish and Russian fluently, as well as English, until I was entered into school at the age of five, Wonderful thing, education...

Anyway, my point is that you said you want to learn but still keep coming back with seemingly serious suggestions, even though you had been repeatedly told the whole thread was, and still is, utter nonsense. Hopefully, now that you have admitted that you know what this thread is actually about, the sojourns into the realm of forum detective and amateur psychologist will cease. Yes?

And Conc dear, we appreciate that you do try to please but, sorry, the cut and paste references really are clichéd now.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 02:20 AM

And the probability processes employed to always arrive at the same point? There's a reason the word fuzzy is used.

The probability algorithm has the same veil of wonder as its biological odds. Or the search for the meaning of life as its known.

My comparison was technical not flippant. In short our lack of understanding is based on too many not too few possibilities. Chaos theory (as tweaked over the years) at the quantum level results in probability theory at the observable physics level. The probability of amino acids getting their act together is almost irresistible.

The origins of the complex molecules do indeed include extraterrestrial sources. After all, if you must be so fundamental about it, despite the protestations of religious cranks, we are star dust (we are etc).

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 02:46 AM

Star dust, apart from our hydrogen which was formed in the aftermath of the bang long before the first star.

I understand exactly how the Camelot Lotto number selector works, but that does not mean I can predict the outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 03:26 AM

The probability of amino acids getting their act together is almost irresistible.

Really?
When did it last happen Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 05:01 AM

Dave, I wrote that you have exactly the same right to write bollocks as I have to write what I think might be interesting for some readers, even if not for you. I try to avoid commenting on the bollocks itself, whenever I can.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 07:24 AM

""Look again playmates, it is his usual pseudo, woosy, ginger, half digested, cut and pasting crap..and I get called unoriginal?""

LIAR!

Not one word of that comment has been cut and pasted. If you don't believe that,produce the source.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 10:23 AM

One of my posts didn't seem to make it. I thought it had. Strange....

I waffled on about fusion, elements up to and including iron etc.

I reckon I asked why the old fool had a thing about stardust and that I wasn't putting Joni Mitchell up as a cosmologist. ..



But when his tactic is to seize a word, take it out of context then go on the attack, you think







Fuck him.

You can't educate pork.

Still. I do have to thank him for getting me to read some of his posts. I like his style. Say something outrageous then spend the next hundred posts denying the intent by analysing individual words and coming over as a victim.

He'd make an ideal martyr for our true religion if he didn't keep wearing his other religion on his sleeve when it suits.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 10:31 AM

I was agreeing with you about star dust, but not about sterile amino acids spontaneously becoming live cells.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 11:43 AM

"I never intended any comparisons with any other creature."

Fair enough, but context is important and you can't separate the human eye from all the other eyes . . . even if you want to single the human eye out it's unreasonable as according to you god created every eye that's ever seen, so he's inviting comparison.


"the idea that the eye is wired backward comes from a lack of knowledge of eye function and anatomy"

Eek! This comment starts from the assumption the eye is designed, which it isn't as it evolved. It's not wired backward or forward (?), but is what it is. The point is that were you to design an eye you could make a better job of it, and this fact argues against it having been designed in the first place (unless god was having an off-day during the eyes bit).


"now that don't sound like rubbish design to me."

Thats cos it ain't design.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 11:48 AM

Yes, but you have to put silly bloody provisos in, don't you? That hydrogen is the initial building block of stars is neither here nor there to what I said but you have to make some irrelevant point each and every time on each and every subject.

Introducing words into debate is one of your traits too, then throwing them back at other people as if they used them.

Sterile.

Spontaneously.

Two words that don't compute with any study of the evolution from large compounds to replication with an aim, leading to conscious intent. I never used them. You know that. So why put them in my mouth?




Presumably to smugly make me look an idiot. I know I am an idiot, it's fools such as yourself who should cold read your drivel and ask yourself a hard question. Hence, fuck him is rather restrained don't you think?



Where's conc? I've put velvet cloth over the vice ready.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 02:38 PM

A large proportion of our atoms are H.
They do not come from stars.
Sorry, but I find that whole concept awe inspiring.

"The probability of amino acids getting their act together is almost irresistible. "

I took that to mean that it was easy for amino acids to form living cells.

It may be, but it has never been observed and there have been many attempts to achieve it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 03:19 PM

Well I must hand it to you wizzjet.. you keep coming back for another dose of correction and humiliation with your cut and paste references..you really are the pits.

Most of your playmates have copped on to the gag..but no..not you!!Your head is that far up your arse that you cannot see when someone is winding you up..

One question, small brain, was you bullied at school? I would put a small wager that you was..or should that be wear? Or did you toady your way through?


LIAR is a big word..reference cut and paste, produce the source.. well phony, I think you have answered that piece of info yourself.

Please call again...but promise me you will have something more substantial to comment on than your usual vindictive crap?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 03:43 PM

or should that be wear?

Wear what Conc? We are not confused by our native tongue yet again are we? Should it be, maybe, were? Or where? Or Whatthefuck?

You really are getting tedious again, I'm afraid. Your only original contribution has been ginger bum cake, or whatever it was. Cut and Paste is definitely passe and you need to get a grip.

Oh, sorry, you obviously have got a grip. Just make sure you don't splash on the keyboard again.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 04:04 PM

Tee! Hee! gnome..or should that be... naw!! cant be arsed

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 04:06 PM

Glad to be of service, C :-) How come you aren't saving the world or some such anyway?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 05:40 PM

grishka- "....design evolutionary algorithms..."
seems a curious turn of phrase being as evolutionism = blind chance..
but then design would be more obvious if not for the bias against it.

stu- so you think you could design a better human eye! I don't think so.!
dawkins seemed to think that the God he says don't exist wired the eye backward, but eye scientists ,it seems, think differently.
how you can think the human eye less than wonderful, beats me.
I suspect it was even better at the beginning before the fall, and mutational build up.
and I don't read anywhere in the bible where the human eye is claimed to be superior to every other creature, in every respect. I don't think I claimed that, as my previous post clarified.   so that criticism is another straw man.
I would deduce though that adams eye was perfectly fit for its use in humans, as was everything else , since God declared all that he had made as very good.

snail- any particular thing I was supposed to have ignored [ I said snail- not the usual detractors]. I thought I answered most things, except when there are multiple bullet points.
steve on the other hand seems to make no specific arguments, but relies on ridicule, at least when answering anything I comment on.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 06:09 PM

" ... since God declared all that he had made as very good."

So what materials did God use to make it all from, pete?

And where did he obtain those materials.

And what materials is he made of?

And where did he come from?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 06:33 PM

Pete, generally, evolutionary algorithms are algorithms that work with some "blind" (usually small) changes and test whether the results are somewhat better than before. If they are, start from there. In the end, you probably do not have an absolutely optimal product, but often much better than you could get by any other means.

The product can be anything, including - and that is the point - another computer system, which can then be regarded as "indirectly designed, directly evolved". The design part consists of the fact that the performance in each step is tested according to the designer's explicit criteria - whereas in "real" evolution, mere survival suffices for success.

Given the fact that a good eye is a gigantic advantage, the evolutionary pressure on it is accordingly high. Dawkins's point, presumably not quite serious, was that an almighty designer could have done even better. The general problem is that nobody could know the designer's criteria; nature itself never allows for verdicts like "good" or "better", beyond the fact of survival (which is actually a poor criterion for quality, given that many marvelous creatures became extinct because of changes in the environment).

In fact many people have the feeling that God designed the world "indirectly" in the above sense, including evolution, so that it appears to us as if by blind chance.

We must keep in mind that evolution theory of living organisms is based on genetics, much more complicated than simply effecting blind small changes (mutations).

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 07:58 PM

pete thinks we won't notice when he harks back to stuff that we've debunked over and over again. He thinks we're all bloody fools with short memories, the insulting git. So here we go again with "the eye". pete, ol' chum, I've told you what to do. Grab yerself a copy of "Origin" and read what Charles Darwin had to say about the eye. You will see an account that is neutral, non-tendentious, self-doubting and self-effacing, and filled with honest humility. And one that comprehensively answers your ever-silly enquiry. Beautifully written too. Even a clod could understand it, but you can't even aspire to clodness, can you? It's everything, in fact, that you could never aspire to. You are insulting, dishonest with both us and yourself, superficial, bone idle and just a bit thick. And blind.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 01:08 AM

I've been dumped before I even started.

Plenty more conch's in the sea I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 04:03 AM

I dunno, Messiah M - Even copying your phrase now.

naw!! cant be arsed

Must be love

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 05:39 AM

"so you think you could design a better human eye! I don't think so.!"

I don't think so either. I couldn't design a better motor car either, but there are people who can. They do it all the time and know all the ins and outs. We call these people 'experts'.


"how you can think the human eye less than wonderful, beats me."

Whoa there! I certainly do think the human eye is wonderful, I'm simply saying it could be better if deliberately designed. Your watchmaker is a bit crap at eye design if she thinks the human (read mammalian - I really hate this arrogant, evil, idea humans are the pinnacle of creation) eye is the most efficient and brilliant eye ever is all I'm saying. It's not even the best mammalian eye.


"I suspect it was even better at the beginning before the fall, and mutational build up."

You really don't understand how allele mutation works do you? You need to understand this to debate it Pete!

So from a biblical literalist point of view, does this mean natural selection was NOT occurring before Adam and Eve got rumbled for looking at each other's wobbly bits? Was evolution in god-induced stasis before the two of them got it on? Where does it say that in the bible?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 10:12 AM

"Coming up with a good eye" is not an evolutionary goal because evolution does not have goals. Any concept of the eye being some sort of finished product, or achievement, betrays the conceiver as someone who does not understand how evolution works. Neither is it right to think of it as a step towards some notion of perfection. It is what it is and it "got there" with many a slip and blind ending :-) along the way, and it's been billions of years in the making (the terrifying time-span of life on earth is the main notion that completely eludes people who doubt evolution's ability to get things done). In its own way, your big toe nail is just as "wonderful". Or your anus even. Doubly wonderful when you see how creationists can talk out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 12:36 PM

Yawn.......................! I see shaw is back again with more half arsed semi digested patronisng third form crap; "evolution does not have any goals" ..wonderful thicko..talk about stating the bloody obvious


Were do you get of with crass statement "the terrifying time span eludes most people who doubt blah! blah! blah? that is so patronising and judgmental it is untrue..well dumbo, there is one thing you do you know about and that is the anus..never mind creationists..you spend most of your time on mudcat talking through it!

I will agree with the big toenail though..it would nestle very nicely along side of your thumb up bum..have a really nice day

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 02:07 PM

Very good! I love you, babe!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 04:32 PM

Well done shaw..you are finally beginning to get hard and gritty...I may even let you serve on one of my fleet of tankers as a deputy bilge diver, if you keep this up..

one thing though..we really need wizzjet on board..he seems to have gone very quiet..sulking? or trying to test my patience with his self opinionated crap..

I do hope he hasn't spat his dummy out..I get seconds of pleasure reading his trumpery.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 07:32 PM

"" I see shaw is back again with more half arsed semi digested patronisng third form crap; "evolution does not have any goals" ..wonderful thicko..talk about stating the bloody obvious""

Stating the obvious is the only way to get through to those who have only one working brain cell between them, like Pete and your good self.

Unfortunately, you only seem to speak on those days when it's Pete's turn to use it, or when it's down at the local laundry.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket getting jealous
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 02:57 AM

Oy Shaw!

You chattin' up my bird?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 06:10 AM

grishka - if I understand you correctly [ cue steve for more derogatory verbage!] you are talking about experimentation, leading to design in regards to the word -evolution- , as opposed to the naturalistic idea of undirected influences in nature.
as to dawkins,- it seems to me that the thrust of his "reasoning" is not that God could/should have made the eye more perfect or higher functionality achieved, but that the wiring was wrong and therefore proving non design, or a stupid designer. [I am inclined to think he would be happy with either conclusion!].

I note stu, that you are still equating natural selection with evolutionism. the former is certainly a supposed mechanism of the latter, but Darwinism has yet to prove ANY mechanism that demonstrates microbes to mudcatters evolution.
before the fall...? natural selection == death does it not?
at the beginning there was no death of animals and humans [ I refuse to accommodate your equal status] though microbes, plant life, and perhaps insect life , I think did die. i am not entirely clear on that detail.
I am disappointed that though you still make some arguments, your tone is otherwise beginning to get like steves.
that is your prerogative, but mine will be not to answer, as is mostly the case re steves.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 10:58 AM

HeY!! HeY!! HeY!! welcome back wizzjet..unfortunately the vacancy as under deputy bilge diver on one of my supertankers is now been withdrawn owing to you been under qualified

Shaw has definitely got hard and salty and decided to get on board for the big adventure by passing the company's qualification in not taking himself to seriously.

You, however, are as still up your own arse as ever and are the smug, judgmental,self satisfied oaf you have always been.

All is not lost though dear heart,I have a mate who urgently wants some broom heads fitting to broomsticks..? how much notice do you need to give at Mcdonalds?.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 11:28 AM

Tsk, tsk. Shame on you, Conc dear. I thought you were the one with all the original ideas yet you have now stolen Messiah M's 'can't be arsed' and my withdrawing of vacancies. I am sure you do not realise you are doing it but, sadly for you, one or two people can actually force themselves to look back at the thread and see it is true.

Stick to toadying to either Messiah. It is your only hope of salvation!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket c/w aftershave
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 12:08 PM

Eyup, you are a gnome of the world, what do you reckon my chances are?

Do you think she would go for my charm, grace and elegance or Co Messiah S's gob iron virtuoso talents? Mind you, I do have my standards and ever since my 17th birthday I raised them above the usual Worksop level of two tits and a heartbeat, although either were optional if memory serves me well.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 12:40 PM

"Chattin' up your bird", co-M?? What kind of talk is that! I thought your bird was an owl. Or two...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 12:43 PM

I note stu, that you are still equating natural selection with evolutionism. the former is certainly a supposed mechanism of the latter, but Darwinism has yet to prove ANY mechanism that demonstrates microbes to mudcatters evolution.
before the fall...? natural selection == death does it not?
at the beginning there was no death of animals and humans [ I refuse to accommodate your equal status] though microbes, plant life, and perhaps insect life , I think did die. i am not entirely clear on that detail.

Well no wet Cornish Saturday afternoon would be complete without a healthy dose of complete gibberish - and here it is!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 02:19 PM

Come Come gnomet..and that is not an invitation you old roue!!

whilst on the subject of plagiarism..toadying is on of my quotes..no need to cuddle up to mm ..we have an understanding..

I note the ultra fraud wizzjet aint come back with one of his lightning, boring, centrist, ginger, woosy, bum inhabitant cake ripostes.


Hows them brooms working out phony? Need any help with your CV?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 05:02 AM

Is on of my quotes? Assuming that should be one of my quotes there are two things wrong there. 1. It is not a quote. Just a word and 2. Yes, you did use the word earlier in the thread in the context that you don't like toadys.

Self loathing must be a terrible thing...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 06:41 AM

" ... but Darwinism has yet to prove ANY mechanism that demonstrates microbes to mudcatters evolution."


But, pete, Christian fundamentalists, such as yourself, have yet to prove that God even exists. And it would appear that you can't answer such questions as:

- What materials did God use to make his creation from?

- Where did he obtain those materials.

- What materials is God made of?

- Where did he come from?

You can't continually point to supposed 'flaws' in scientific theories when your own models of reality are so untenable. "I read it in an old book of uncertain origin" does NOT count as a scientific argument!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 09:02 AM

At the risk of sounding like some one who actually gives a shit..

After nearly two thousand posts could one of you self satisfied, pedantic, judgmental cretins actually explain to me in lay persons language, without cut and pasting and quoting lots of semi digested pseudo academic crap..

What is wrong with people believing in what they want to believe in and choosing your own sexual orientation?

My view always has been if you believe in religion it is a very personal thing and it aint up for question.equally if you are an atheist that is your choice

In my very humble opinion if you want to be gay or whatever it is your choice.

That would save a lot of this backward and forwarding.

Mind i verily believe that without this kind of forum most of you would be lost without quoting your self styled superiority or better die from self abuse .

I have met most of you in folk clubs ..you are the smug ones who give the fifteen minute explanations to a three verse song invariably read from a massive lever arch file....

please get a life.. you all have my heart scalded..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 09:20 AM

"I am disappointed that though you still make some arguments, your tone is otherwise beginning to get like steves."

I don't mean to cause offence, but sometimes I think you're taking the piss.


"I note stu, that you are still equating natural selection with evolutionism."

No I'm not. Natural selection is a mechanism of evolution, not evolution itself.


"I refuse to accommodate your equal status"

The very concept of human superiority over nature is an arrogance I cannot abide and an ignorance that cannot be tolerated. I'll go further: the very idea humans can have dominion over nature and are somehow separated from it is a teaching of the most diabolical evil. I don't use the word lightly, but profoundly evil it is and has caused (and still does) so much needless suffering. That people still place any weight such utter crap is depressing and deeply sad.

We're nature, nature is us. We are related to every living thing on the planet, perhaps even beyond (panspermia) if ecosystems prove to be spread out across solar systems or even galaxies.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 09:22 AM

What is wrong with people believing in what they want to believe in and choosing your own sexual orientation?

Very well said, Conc. I am serious this time although I do realise that that doesn't matter :-) The whole point of this and the earlier thread was to try and smear the atheist with the same tar brush as the religious fanatic. Which is why some of us chose to take the piss out of it. If you look back in the thread there are umpteen examples of both Messiahs, me and other people saying we do not care what people believe in as long as they do not try to push their beliefs on us. Be that religious or sexual preference.

The religious fanatics will now come back and say that they are only defending their religions against us taking the piss but you need to ask yourself this question. Who started this thread? Who started the last one? Who starts all the threads that try to make people believe in their religions? You don't even need to look up the answer as I think you will very quickly realise it is the religious fundamentalists that start them.

Hop that helps. Well, I don't give a toss if it does or doesn't really but you know what I mean

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 09:34 AM

Well gnomet..I had worked that out for me self..but I do take your point about the fanatics..at the risk of sounding like the baby wizzjet ..I assume you meant hope not hop ..but there again like you I don't give a toss ..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 10:09 AM

"What is wrong with people believing in what they want to believe in and choosing your own sexual orientation?"

The short answer is: Nothing!

But leaving aside the bit about sexual orientation (perhaps for another thread?) what we're arguing against here is NOT religion per se but religious FUNDAMENTALISM - which many of us see as dangerous and potentially repressive. Religious fundamentalists don't want to stop at believing nonsense - they want to force other people to believe their nonsense too!

"The very concept of human superiority over nature is an arrogance I cannot abide and an ignorance that cannot be tolerated. I'll go further: the very idea humans can have dominion over nature and are somehow separated from it is a teaching of the most diabolical evil. I don't use the word lightly, but profoundly evil it is and has caused (and still does) so much needless suffering. That people still place any weight such utter crap is depressing and deeply sad."

Very well said, Stu! Hear! Hear! I'll go further and state my belief that this poisonous, life-hating attitude has its roots in the Christian religion and another reason why we must resolutely oppose Christian fundamentalists.

All of my life I've had to endure the sight of the world being brutally dismantled around me - and I'm sick of it! I'm now an active conservationist and have undertaken to dedicate the rest of my life to this cause. If we destroy nature, we will inevitably destroy our own species. We are part of nature whether we like it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 10:44 AM

What have you got against hop?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket the missionary man
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 11:35 AM

You can always combine sexual orientation with religion and stick to the missionary position. Mind you, not a good idea where the associated gnome has chosen to live, as sheep can suffer from bad breath. (As a Derbyshire lad, I'm allowed to say it. )

Whatever floats your boat. Hence my issues with bigots. I have been known to sing Si Khan's Curtains of Old Joe's House before now and am struck by the simple but true line,"If you're not hurting someone else then you've not gone too far. "

Here lover! I certainly don't sing with a file in front of me. Varifocal glasses preclude it for starters. Also, at the risk of incurring the wrath of many, I put it in the same category as grunting when standing up or bending down, or wearing your trousers up to your tits.We would like to think we might get to that stage in the distant future, but whilst words and music are in my head, I'll belt the buggers out from there.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 03:24 PM

At the risk of sounding like some one who actually gives a shit..

Believe me, you give a shit.

What is wrong with people believing in what they want to believe in and choosing your own sexual orientation?

Nothing.

My view always has been if you believe in religion it is a very personal thing and it aint up for question.equally if you are an atheist that is your choice

Correct. No-one's questioning it. As long as you keep it personal and away from the kids. Hey, looking at the world of religion, that's a bloody big "as long as", innit...

In my very humble opinion if you want to be gay or whatever it is your choice.

You're not very humble but you're spot on.

Mind i verily believe that without this kind of forum most of you would be lost without quoting your self styled superiority or better die from self abuse .

We were here before this forum was born and we'll be here after it dies. And still wanking.

I have met most of you in folk clubs ..you are the smug ones who give the fifteen minute explanations to a three verse song invariably read from a massive lever arch file....

Yeah, thank Christ I play tunes and don't sing. I'm with you 101.863% on this one.

please get a life.. you all have my heart scalded..

Most of us spend about 0.003% of our lives here. You are, worryingly, spending more and more time here. Get a life, ol' girl!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 04:41 PM

Well done shaw you are certainly living up to expectations.. a little to much negative and criticism of the vice admiral..but keep up the general idea of agreeing with me and a little less toadying and you may, and it is a big may..reach the dizzy heights of senior bilge diver on the queen of my fleet.

I do however expect my underlings to spend as much time as me on this forum to keep an eye on underachievers and smug gobshites like the sulky baby wizzjet..


Steady on shitroad!!! I am on your side..just ease down on the self righteous and judgmental crap eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 05:24 PM

Hhhhhmmm! Thoughts about pots calling kettles black spring into my mind there, 'concerened'!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 05:41 PM

A little less toadying my arse. If there's any toadying going on around here it's coming from you pretending that you're getting me onside and weaseling up accordingly (as I haven't a bloody clue what side you're s'posed to be on, that would be rather difficult). You are very amusing but you're still a twat. Yeah, stick a veneer of funny all over a twat, but it's still a twat. Am I scoring?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 06:21 PM

dave gnome- come up short here! stringsinger started this thread.
I doubt that he appreciates being called a christian fundamentalist.
I don't mind it though. simply means I believe the bible - perhaps the only one here who does. but I am not forcing anyone to convert, nor would if I could. repentance and faith has to be voluntary and sincere to be genuine. but I care enough to give expression to my faith, even if rejected.

i'm sure you do know the difference ,stu ,but evolutionists continue to offer examples of natural selection as though it were evidence for particles to people evolution. and as you know natural selection has not been shown to increase the information required for that.

yes shimrod, I have a faith position, but based on what we know, that nothing comes into existence except from already existent life.
I posit God who is spiritual life and created by his word without recourse to already existing material.
not something you have seemingly any intention of entertaining.
I respect your right to carry on believing that all came from nothing via no one.
I don't think it should be imposed on our kids though , as if it were established fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 07:06 PM

stringsinger started this thread

Wrong again Pete me old fruit. I have no idea whatsoever why Shitflinger started this one as there was already a perfectly valid one here started by Matelot Jaques. This is just a continuation.

As to what you believe in, fine by me. But when someone starts saying that atheists are as militant as you fundamentalists then it is up to us to correct the misconception. Carry on believing in the bible and I will carry believing in Doctor Who, Fairies at the bottom of the garden and everything that Conc tells us. OK?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 07:09 PM

Oh, and cut the crap about imposing stuff on kids. We have had at least 2000 years of that from your lot along with brutal punishments for those who disagree. All anyone on here has ever proposed is that we give kids the tools to make up their own minds.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 08:05 PM

evolutionists continue to offer examples of natural selection as though it were evidence for particles to people evolution. and as you know natural selection has not been shown to increase the information required for that.

Absolute balderdash, and yet another example of you having a pitch at something you've tried and failed with before but think we might have forgotten about. Well we haven't. In the context of evolution you have shown that you have simply no idea what "information" is, yet you prattle proudly on as if you do. Dishonest, disreputable, a disgrace to your faith and downright vacuous.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket living the dream
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 01:22 AM

Ok. We don't need to move on from pete proclaiming his faith as it is self evident. We do however need to note why it is relevant to this thread.

He is falling into the trap of feeling his faith itself is being questioned whereas in the spirit of this particular thread it is when faith extends its influence outside of church or temple and tries to find a place to fit in reality. That's what is being questioned.

Oh dear.

The idea that God did it may have been a comfortable way of filling in the gaps when just about everybody was hard wired into a faith but society has moved on. Society has evolved, and rather rapidly in the last 50 years in this country. Same in The USA really but reactionary forces are more vocal and prevalent. In Dumbfuckistan they will host a book burning. Here they write odd letters to The Times.

The message is the same. Identify lack of faith. Call it atheism. Make it the bogey man.

So we end up with threads asking if the bogey man is militant. We get a thread pointing out the persecution people identified as one particular cult receive and we get concerted effort to shout down anyone who sees through the fog.

Mind you. Not blaming pete for that last bit. He is the only committed Christian to speak on this thread and whilst he is on a hiding to nothing and berates the march of discovery with simplistic ignorance (which is rather annoying) at least he tries to make a case for what faith ultimately means.

I reckon faith means putting an imposed set of ideas above your own reasoning. The aim being not allowing your own reasoning to get a look in. Then you will have found the face of God.



I am enjoying writing bollocks masquerading as high brow shit masquerading as bollocks. A vicar friend told me yesterday that they were trained to write sermons aimed at Sun readers not Guardian ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 03:09 AM

I reckon faith means....

As if any thinking person gives a shit what you reckon on that subject!
You have demonstrated your bigoted ignorance over and over.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 03:35 AM

"I posit God who is spiritual life and created by his word without recourse to already existing material."


"I respect your right to carry on believing that all came from nothing via no one."

If you take away the pious bullshit ("spiritual life", "his word") then, surely, to any rational observer, the second statement is marginally more credible than the first (?) And, again, it's not a question of BELIEF it's a question of EVIDENCE. There is no evidence for God but there is evidence for a 'Big Bang' (whatever that was).

There is also evidence, from the fossil record, that, in the past, some living organisms became extinct and new ones emerged. The best model, so far, to explain such events is the theory of evolution.

There are missing pieces in both the cosmological and evolutionary 'jigsaws' - but that's science for you! For the forseeable future, scientists will work diligently to fill in the gaps - but the one thing that I am confident about is that there always will be gaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 05:29 AM

Ah.. My troll follows me onto most threads these days. Except the music ones for now, thank Clapton.

I'm a bigot.

No thinking person gives a shit what I reckon on his pet subject.

The latter puts me in company with everyone else, the former is what zealots and bigoted members of looney fringe organisations shout when they are caught with their trousers down.

I repeat. pete is the only real Christian who posts on these threads. He is the only one who sees no weasel worded difference between belief and believing. The only one who doesn't pick and choose what is convenient to believe and throw in the face of others. Smug self satisfied sanctimonious hypocrisy is not part of his creed.

Still reckon he is deluded mind.... I also reckon his posts insult the intelligence of others.

Keith A of Hertford however demonstrates why the co Messiahs and associated gnome exist in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 06:17 AM


There is also evidence, from the fossil record, that, in the past, some living organisms became extinct and new ones emerged. The best model, so far, to explain such events is the theory of evolution.

Your first sentence seems to be talking about evolution but the secomd says "the theory of evolution". Could you clarify please?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 07:43 AM

"i'm sure you do know the difference ,stu ,but evolutionists continue to offer examples of natural selection as though it were evidence for particles to people evolution. and as you know natural selection has not been shown to increase the information required for that."

Why do you think different organisms have genomes of different lengths? Ask yourself how this might occur. Alleles are being exchanged, and genetic information is being accrued during this process. In fact, the length of the genome appears to be largely irrelevant when it comes to the complexity of the organism.

Your designer ain't purging his caches.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 07:45 AM

Steady on shaw!!!! calling a superior officer a twat constitutes gross misconduct.

No toadying intended; I just made a dreadful mistake (unlike me)..I fecked up!! I trusted you..wont happen again.

No score I am afraid..stick lipstick on a pig and he is still a pig may have done it,

However, it must come a as a great disappointment to you, but as well from being a phony..you aint very funny.

Well you know what happens to unfunny phony's..yes!!!.. that's right!!Back to the thumb up bum game with added crayons.

Now just in case you have forgot the rules, follow these instructions and take three times a day:

1. take box of crayons
2. start placing them very carefully up your bum
3. now carefully insert thumb up bum.
4. start dribbling out of the corner of your mouth
5. repeat after me "I am a judgmental, patronising, woosy, ginger cake inhabitant,centrist phony"

Now doesn't that feel better, fraud?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 07:49 AM

Extinction is not part of evolution.
It is a failure to evolve.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket loves ginger nuts
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 08:13 AM

Hey lover! I'm having problems coming to terms with ginger cake inhabitant. It seems like something I once aspired to be, (Carol Decker singing China in your hands always did it for me...)

Now... This is odd. Someone has genuinely left a pack of crayons on my desk for me. Buggered if I know who or why. It wasn't there when I wandered off to the canteen for my mid morning brew but was there when I got back.

Can you confirm whether I have to join in the bum filling game or whether on account of us being lovers, I don't have to? Only with the door shut, I have method and opportunity, just need motive really.

And not wishing to let ignorance from others contaminate our high brow thread....

Entropy tells us the arrow of time is consistent with the second law of thermodynamics. Hence for local entropy to give us an evolved position, with the decrease in entropy this causes, the balance has to be struck by an increase in environmental entropy, which can through cause and effect be met by extinction. Examples making use of the food chain to describe events show this to be the case in many instances.

In that sense, extinction is a key tenet of evolution.



(Rutherford claimed that science is physics and sundry stamp collecting. Bringing evolutionary biology down to the level of physics often brings clarity....) sorry, I don't have the figures for specific Christian entropy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 08:22 AM

Entropy tells us the arrow of time is consistent with the second law of thermodynamics. Hence for local entropy to give us an evolved position, with the decrease in entropy this causes, the balance has to be struck by an increase in environmental entropy, which can through cause and effect be met by extinction. Examples making use of the food chain to describe events show this to be the case in many instances.
In that sense, extinction is a key tenet of evolution.


No.
Species become extinct when they fail to adapt to their environment.
Extinction is a dead end.
Extinct species cease to evolve.

"Examples making use of the food chain to describe events show this to be the case in many instances."
Perhaps you could share some relevant examples with us?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 08:55 AM

Fear not musket sweety..you are the last to be involved in the bum filling game xxxxxxxxxxx

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 08:56 AM

Be afraid. Be very afraid...
http://www.timesunion.com/news/us/article/Atheist-mega-churches-take-root-across-US-world-4972634.php

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 09:10 AM

Fear not musket sweety..you are the last to be involved in the bum filling game xxxxxxxxxxx

Ha, knew it! You're definitely a woman then... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 09:12 AM

"There is also evidence, from the fossil record, that, in the past, some living organisms became extinct and new ones emerged. The best model, so far, to explain such events is the theory of evolution."

Your first sentence seems to be talking about evolution but the secomd says "the theory of evolution". Could you clarify please?

Don't fall for this, Shim. There's no correct answer. He'll stalk you for ever more, I assure you!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket on a roll
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 10:04 AM

Oh yes! Mind you, being the last to be in the bum filling game isn't the same as not being in it at all...

The crayons? Turns out they are for me, but should have been marker pens for a presentation I am giving this afternoon as the electronic whiteboard is sulking as usual. (Turns out it was donated by the IT company making them, but they do well out of us mending the *%#+€!! thing.) so the upshot is, nothing is going to get shot up me.

Co messiah S's advice to Shimrod is something I am heeding regarding Keith A of Hertford. Although his ignorance does raise an interesting factor in the evolution debate per se. Evolution of a given species versus evolution of all organic life forms. My entropy point works for the fact that evolution of one can depend on the extinction of another and vice versa, making them entwined in destiny as it were, whereas some of the "God did it" crowd confuse evolution with transmogrification, which in entropy terms is always one way.

Just a thought. I don't like using big words normally and I am so out of date on such subjects I question some of the detail myself, but no matter. At least one shallow twat always looking to make me look an idiot. (Two if you include our resident queer basher.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 10:08 AM

I really am not trying to make you look an idiot.
It just happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 10:25 AM

Snail, if you believe that I have been guilty of terminological inexactitude, please feel free to enlighten me.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 10:55 AM

Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! did you work that all by your little self shaw..or did you ring the fraud wizzjet for some assistance?

Read me post again stooooooooooooopid, and never jump to conclusions..sweetpants musket didn't

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket with pan handle
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 12:47 PM

Bless you sweetikins. X

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 12:50 PM

"Extinction is not part of evolution. It is a failure to evolve."

Extinction plays a huge role in evolution. All species become extinct at some point allowing speciation to occur. Major extinction events such as the Cretaceous-Palaeogene event means a burst in speciation and allows entire new ecosystems to evolve, in this case the demise of non-avian dinosaurs that led to a rapid increase in mammal diversity and disparity, some evolving into giant forms.

Labelling extinction a failure is repeating an old trope we were all taught at school, but is the wrong way to think about extinction. Extinction is an inability to adapt and as an evironment changes, species become extinct. Look at the mass extinction we're causing on the planet now as we alter the environment organisms live in too quickly or simply slaughtering them en-masse; these species are not failing, we are.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket with bad news
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 02:29 PM

We've been blown...

Stringsinger has lost confidence in our ability to deal with religious nonsense and started a new thread.

Bugger.

I was just about to see if my new girlfriend would let me get past first base too. I got some free aftershave with a coat I bought the other week, popped home via the cemetery to get her some flowers, brought my annual bath forward.......

And it looks like the thread is about to ge

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 03:09 PM

"Look at the mass extinction we're causing on the planet now as we alter the environment organisms live in too quickly or simply slaughtering them en-masse; these species are not failing, we are."

Sad thing is, we'll never know what comes after us - and we'll never know whether it will fool itself into believing in a God!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,The artist formally known as concerened
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 06:31 PM

Its dead easy sweetcheeks..leave us go and hijack the other site..come on playnates last one in is bum inhabitant ginger woosy..lolx

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 07:38 PM

The thing about evolution is that it just happens. That's a great truth. "Just" is very important there: no-one runs it, guides it, oversees it, directs it or invents it, and it has no goals of its own. Evolution is a completely natural process that will take place as long as three conditions obtain: that life exists, that heritable material can miscopy, and that the environment is subject to change. Extinctions happen for many reasons but they do not drive evolution. An extinction, in one sense, is a dead end, but, who knows, the ancestor of the extinct being may still be there. So might the ancestor of the ancestor, come to think of it. If some brave soul has ever put a numerical limit on the number of species that can exist at any given time, well I haven't seen it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 10:04 PM

Shshshhhh, don't tell anyone, they'll think your an oxymoron!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 02:18 AM

Extinction is indeed a dead end. DNA does seem to have the ability to tell a historical story though. I find it fascinating that from a biology aspect the link between evolution and extinction goes little further than both being tenets of survival of the fittest, whereas from a pure physics aspect, they are linked through entropy.

Interesting sideline discussion and worthy of more debate than the shallow "I say they are different" amateur philosophy cadet contribution further up the screen. Although to be fair, the contribution was just to try to make me look a prat rather than know what he was talking about.






Hi lover!   The definition of ginger bum cake inhabitant is beginning to become clear. Just off out to buy some velvet ankle straps and a bottle of plonk.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 03:03 AM

It is not all about you Musket.
It was Shimrod who raised the issue of extinction and evolution.
I responded to him, and you responded to me.
I really do not try to make you look a pratt.
The blame lies nearer to home.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 04:19 AM

"survival of the fittest"

Think of it more as 'survival of the best adapted' rather than 'fittest'.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 05:30 AM

Steve Shaw
The thing about evolution is that it just happens. That's a great truth.

Well, you can't argue with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 05:44 AM

Fair point Stu. Although fit for purpose works too.






You know, the more Musket lets soppy turn the cheek Ian out, the less reasons to do so.Keith really doesn't invite decent open honest debate. I am so glad I address his tedious logic chopping under Musket rather than the inclusive listening Ian. Musket doesn't mind reminding him what a twat he is.

But for what it is, Ian reckons he's a twat too.   You cannot even begin to debate with him.   At least with pete you know what to expect but Keith can be reasonable if he chooses. His dogma driving his views though. ......   I thought Jim Carroll would argue for the hell of it but he isn't in the same league. ......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 06:13 AM

Extinction and "survival of the fittest" (the latter a gloss put on Darwin's notions that he didn't coin himself and was reluctant to embrace) have nothing to do with each other. Species become extinct; natural selection does not "weed out poorly-adapted species" but leads to differential survival of heritable traits within species.This confusion, intentional or otherwise, is in danger of bringing superb science into disrepute, a process deliberately embarked on by idiots such as pete and his dishonest ilk and unfortunately promoted by third-rate "popular science" writing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally the troll called conceren
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 06:36 AM

Hey Shaw..can I ask one sensible question.....Don't you ever get fed up with quoting all that semi digested crap?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 06:44 AM

I'm a biologist, sugar tits, and I look stuff up carefully before I spout. Which is more than can be said about some of the offerings here on evolution, etc. Now if you care to apprise me of the bits that you find semi-digested, I'll respond accordingly. Otherwise, stick to what you're good at, which is being bloody amusing but innocent of any real content. My next prediction is that you'll soon be in bed with a snail. In which case it don't matter what gender you are because a snail is both so you'll be able to take your pick of what you get up to between the sheets. Sniffily yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 07:34 AM

"Species become extinct; natural selection does not "weed out poorly-adapted species" but leads to differential survival of heritable traits within species."

This.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 02:30 PM

".....genetic information is being accrued.." stu.
perhaps you might give a few indisputable examples out of the evolutionary research demonstrating this claim.
dawkins didn't do too well answering this sort of question.
maybe you can help him out!

I confess that I did not understand too well the rest of your reply.
what has the length [is that=volume of information?] to do with it.
surely we would expect higher organisms to have longer or larger genomic volume.
and are not alelles alternative info, eg long/short hair.
ie selection from pre-existing info, not a resource for new information?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 03:01 PM

".....genetic information is being accrued.." stu.
perhaps you might give a few indisputable examples out of the evolutionary research demonstrating this claim.
dawkins didn't do too well answering this sort of question.
maybe you can help him out!

Lemme help you out, pete. You have a head with hair and organs displaying bilateral symmetry (the fact that it contains nothing in your case is beside the point). The earliest life (in which you do not believe, but hey ho) had no head, no hair, no organs, etc. Those structures have got there by dint of genetic material (not "information") being copied, miscopied and selected for in billions of tiny transactions over billions of years. One day you'll stop waffling on about "information". Trying to abstractify that which is not abstract is a well-known ploy indulged in by people who try to delude other people. In your case, though, it's more a thoroughly deluded person indulging in pigshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 04:15 AM

I reckon that this thread is not evolving and is in danger of extinction.

I suppose that not giving a name to our true religion means that nobody can set up a reformed non name true religion, but that's about it.

I suggest we blow the proceeds of the collection boxes on a huge box of crayons, organise a night at the local Gala bingo, and on the way home knock on the vicarage front door and run off laughing.

Snag is, we'd need another thread to shout at Christians, logic choppers and trolls. AND I doubt my charm, elegance and willy will attract a fan the second time around.

Mind you, I live in hope.   (Being a Derbyshire lad, we tend to say I'd rather live in Hope than die in Clay Cross....)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 06:14 AM

Can we have condoms to put on our thumbs as well, please?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket examining machine in gents
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 06:21 AM

Chocolate, raspberry or banana flavour?

The banana ones only seem to come in rIbbed design. The chocolate ones seem big enough for my thumb but the others are a wee bit tight.

Decisions, decisions, decisions.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 06:42 AM

talking of condoms: a guy walked into a bar in Aberdeen, he says to his mate " Hey Jimmy, I have just been in the cludgy and they have a condom machine that sells whiskey flavored condoms!!"

His mate says.."malt or blended?"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 06:51 AM

"surely we would expect higher organisms to have longer or larger genomic volume."

You might, mightn't you? And in some cases they do, but often they don't and I'm not an expert in this area but Steve might be able to explain why is, or where research int his area is up to.

Your term "higher organisms" indicates an outdated and outmoded way of thinking. When taxonomists talk of "higher taxa" they are not talking about the complexity of the genome or the superiority of the organism but it's derived status and therefore it's assignment to a clade based on it's autapomorphies. It does not mean they are somehow 'better' than anything else (apologies if this is what you meant).

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 07:48 AM

Guy walks into a baker's shop in Glasgow, points to a confection in the window and asks "Is that a cake or a meringue?"

Assistant replies "No, you're right. It's a cake."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 07:52 AM

I'm not sure what "larger or longer genomic volume" actually means, but I suspect I have more of an inkling than pete. For example, do you suppose it means "more genes"?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 03:05 PM

Surely we would expect longer or larger genomic value ginger bum inhabitant woosy cake eaters to understand the taxonomists view of the higher taxa and the higher gnomet view of his complex superia.organism.

But again, does this not indicate a assignment to a glade based automorphism, or its crap based patronising views of frauds such as wizzjet and shaw,

However, it does not mean that he is higher than anyone else..but in point of fact he is still speaking as much shite as the rest of you..frauds, cake eating centrists, patronising gobshites to a man/woman man!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 03:37 PM

Here. .. This man /woman stuff. ... You wouldn't perchance be of the persuasion that would have Akenaton hating me even more?

When I felt a lump
Me heart went thump...


You never did tell me your favourite colour lover?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 05:52 PM

stu - looking up "autapomorthy " , it seems to me that assigning something which has a feature that is unique makes it difficult to place in an exact clade. would the platypus be an example of this?.
[I imagine that had it become extinct, it might be heralded as transitional!]
I am having difficulty understanding what your point is. whilst I appreciate organisms may be grouped together due to variation by natural selection, there is little ,if any evidence that any grouping beyond those limits is legitimate , since your common descent is equally, if not better explained by a common design .
when I say information, I am referring to the code of dna "letters" that continually "write" the same "blueprint". there is no evidence being offered that anything beyond that is being copied that could lead to macro evolution.

I am curious as to whether you think anything is better than something else. for example , the "simplest" single cell ,though having some complexity is much lower than the higher taxa.
do you see humanity as not having more value than lower forms, or do you see a line of demarcation somewhere- mammals perhaps?.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 06:08 PM

However, it does not mean that he is higher than anyone else..but in point of fact he is still speaking as much shite as the rest of you..frauds, cake eating centrists, patronising gobshites to a man/woman man!!

Yeah, twat-face, but my frickin' joke was funnier than your frickin' insipid apology for a joke so stick that up yer fragrantly unwashed chocolate-smeared squishy girlie tushy botty (phwoarr!) with a whole box of condom-covered crayons, or, even better, a baker's dozen of king-size frickin' pritt-sticks still with their sharp lids on, an' then see if you can still shit 'ard!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 06:14 PM

stu - looking up "autapomorthy " , it seems to me that assigning something which has a feature that is unique makes it difficult to place in an exact clade. would the platypus be an example of this?.
[I imagine that had it become extinct, it might be heralded as transitional!]
I am having difficulty understanding what your point is. whilst I appreciate organisms may be grouped together due to variation by natural selection, there is little ,if any evidence that any grouping beyond those limits is legitimate , since your common descent is equally, if not better explained by a common design .
when I say information, I am referring to the code of dna "letters" that continually "write" the same "blueprint". there is no evidence being offered that anything beyond that is being copied that could lead to macro evolution.

I am curious as to whether you think anything is better than something else. for example , the "simplest" single cell ,though having some complexity is much lower than the higher taxa.
do you see humanity as not having more value than lower forms, or do you see a line of demarcation somewhere- mammals perhaps?.

No, really, I'm curious: were you pissed out of your head or on drugs when you typed this utter bollocks?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 08:03 PM

Sizes of Various Genomes

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 02:53 AM

Leave us genomes out of it.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 10:47 AM

"it seems to me that assigning something which has a feature that is unique makes it difficult to place in an exact clade"

Pete, you haven't got to grips with this at all. If you really want to disprove a theory, then you need to understand it first. Seriously.


"I am curious as to whether you think anything is better than something else. for example , the "simplest" single cell ,though having some complexity is much lower than the higher taxa.
do you see humanity as not having more value than lower forms, or do you see a line of demarcation somewhere- mammals perhaps?."

Better in what way? Define better.

If, however you mean 'superior' then I believe all living beings are equal in the sense we are part of the complex and wonderful web of life on this planet. No one organism is truly superior as every living thing is a single stage in a long and complex process, a living snapshot of evolution as it is now.

As I've mentioned before, the idea in Genesis that says man has dominion over all living things is a message of pure evil, elevating humankind above the rest of nature and giving a certain type of person licence to abuse and exploit the other living beings and the environment they live in under some sort of twisted moral authority. Of course, godless people do the same but at least they might admit their motivation and uncaring and inconsiderate attitude.


"when I say information, I am referring to the code of dna "letters" that continually "write" the same "blueprint""

But they don't you see. That's the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 10:54 AM

Stu... Good luck. You realise he is taking the piss? He makes the co messiahs and associated gnome look amateurs. We aren't in his league.

If I can pick you up on the point about man's dominion in Genesis being evil. Yes.

However, Sheffield Wednesday does have dominion over all other football teams. Natural selection and all that.

If Sheffield United were playing in my garden I'd close the curtains.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 12:18 PM

Tut, Tut shaw..told you before opprobrious epithets only show you up as the prat you really are.

You do get it wrong don't you? your insipid cake eating apology joke equates equally between your tiny apology for a mind and your tinier apology for a dick..I can see by your pornographic post that you fantasise about me..dream on baby.I am promised to another

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 02:25 PM

"I am curious as to whether you think anything is better than something else. for example , the "simplest" single cell ,though having some complexity is much lower than the higher taxa.
do you see humanity as not having more value than lower forms, ..."

Well, pete, it's worth bearing in mind a quote from the great American scholar and anthropologist, Jared Diamond i.e.:

"Elimination of lots of lousy little species regularly causes big harmful consequences for humans, just as does randomly knocking out many of the lousy little rivets holding together an airplane."

You see, nothing is superior to anything else and everything is interdependent. That doesn't stop 'god-fearing' 'superior' human beings from trashing the world around them and endlessly knocking out thousands of "lousy little rivets". One day soon the airplane is going to come crashing down and there will be no one left to fear God!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 03:35 PM

I am promised to another

2 degrees. Maybe.

Vice Admiral of the Tanzanian Navy. You never know.

But, c'mon, Conc. You really are stretching our imaginations inferring that there is someone else as daft as you.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 04:23 PM

Well gnomet, call me daft if you will but let me put it this way;

1.You have identified me as a troll
2. I have identified me as a troll
3. The accepted way to deal with trolls is to ignore them.
4. It would be really daft to carry on banter/trade insults with a troll.
5. You and the nomark, centrist, ginger cake inhabitant, pseudo academics relentlessly keep on the banter/trading insults with me, an identified self admitted troll.

I don't think I need to infer there is someone who is dafter than me? Do you ?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 05:53 PM

The biter bit! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 05:57 PM

All well and good, Conc, but you fall at the first hurdle.

I don't believe you are a Troll. That would require a modicum of intelligence.

Ake. Glad you are associating with your own sort.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 04:41 AM

Gnomet you are a thick clod.......but I cant believe even you are that thick...just admit defeat and get back to shoving the clinker covered crayons up the round brown, with the rest of the judgemental thickos?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll not really a troll?
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 07:12 AM

..and leave ake outa this.. he is perfectly capable of making himself look a prick without your assistance thank you weary much

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 08:20 AM

However, Sheffield Wednesday does have dominion over all other football teams. Natural selection and all that.

I always understood that the Sheff Wed team was a prime example of desperate selection.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket the repeater
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 08:44 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll not really a troll?
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 07:12 AM

..and leave ake outa this.. he is perfectly capable of making himself look a prick without your assistance thank you weary much




No comment. Just repeating it in case anyone missed it earlier.



Hi lover! How's it going sweetikins? X

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 01:19 PM

If he really made himself look a prick he might have to have himself compulsorily inspected.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 01:50 PM

I used to inspect in a healthcare way of doing things. I shan't be lining up to volunteer to stigmatise him.

After all, like the people he demonises, he has the freedom in our country of not being touched by anybody in a healthcare way without his consent.

Anyway. Must dash. Promised to do a spot at a charity concert down the road in Hatfield tonight. Scrub that Roy Harper song I normally sing. .... (Tom Tiddlers Ground.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 03:35 PM

"....message of pure evil.." stu?
and on what basis do you ascertain and pronounce something as evil?
...on your own subjective morality, I presume.
and to shimrod too, charging that the genesis dominion mandate is a license for selfishness, carelessness and destruction. adam was put into the garden to tend it,- which I suppose makes him some kind of conservationist! there are a number of other texts which teach care of animals and even trees.
that of course wont fit with your preconceived ideas of biblical teaching.
what you do seem to understand, is that if you grant the greater and more distinct properties of humanity, it might lead to implications of his being made in Gods image.
that will never do, will it?.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 08:49 PM

"Pure evil" applies to any message, propagated to the bigger world, that preaches certainty about mythology. I can't think of anything more nastily dishonest than that. A message that preaches that the world would be a better place were this ideology to prevail. That there is just one true faith, the one that is propagated by one book, the Bible, that enjoys no foundation whatsoever in evidence. That all hard-working science counts for nothing in the light of a superior being who can't be explained and who almost certainly does not exist. Pete, you yourself adhere to all these things, and every point I've covered is an example of pure evil. Why? Because they are deliberately intended to steer people towards one particular, discredited creed and away from truth. That is pure evil. You yourself are either pure evil (if you believe this stuff and desire to propagate it) or you're a fool who's been hoodwinked. I've decided which you are. So over to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 03:29 AM

" ... charging that the genesis dominion mandate is a license for selfishness, carelessness and destruction. adam was put into the garden to tend it,- which I suppose makes him some kind of conservationist!"

Yes, it does appear to be a licence for all of those things, doesn't it, pete? You may recall that when western Christians - and their priests - went to other parts of the world they not only enslaved and oppressed the people they found there but also trashed their environments. And this trashing is still going on and is accelerating. These days the religious elements have largely been lost but I reckon that, if you dug down, you'd find the toxic concept of "dominion" to be at the root of this catastrophic destruction.

" ... there are a number of other texts which teach care of animals and even trees."

What do you mean by AND EVEN TREES, pete? In your world, are trees 'lower' than animals?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 04:31 AM

Weren't sycamore created in his image or something like that?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll who is not a troll
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 05:54 AM

I see my sweet baby muskett is right on board with the programme as usual.

This truly great man has more sense in his little pinky that the rest of you cake eating, ginger inhabited bozos put together!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 07:19 AM

Nothing makes me sycamore than ginger cake.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll who is not a troll?
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 10:28 AM

Ha Ha tee Hee!!! pass me my girdle me sides are splitting..how long did it take to work that piece of pathetic verbiage, shaw you prancing poser.?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 02:47 PM

Come off of it, tit. There's coffee splattered all over your keyboard and you know it!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 03:10 PM

Ok. Never one to run from a contrived pun. .

Sorry Messiah S. Conc is obviously a perceptive young lady, as she rightly sees me as a bit of alright. .

Hi sweetikins! You never did tell me your favourite colour? {Giggle}

By the way lover, I know of a washing powder that can get baby oil out of stockings xxx

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 06:39 PM

I like to see trees ,shimrod, and I know they are ecologically important.
but if a tree needs to come down I don't worry if I do it in the most humane way possible. I do care if animal life is mistreated or there is needless careless suffering inflicted.
as to your other comments-
a/you attack the bible by the [alleged] practises of Christians.
b/you concede yourself that there is no or little religious element currently in the "catastrophic destruction"
c/if you want to cite the faults of the religious ,past or present, I can surely cite the evil of evolution believers, if you wanna go down that path again.
so ,I think your argument flawed, but at least there was one, unlike steve who sounds like the needles stuck...evolution true ,darwin elegant, creationists evil...ad nauseum.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 06:56 PM

if you want to cite the faults of the religious ,past or present, I can surely cite the evil of evolution believers, if you wanna go down that path again.
so ,I think your argument flawed, but at least there was one, unlike steve who sounds like the needles stuck...evolution true ,darwin elegant, creationists evil...ad nauseum.

It's "ad nauseam" you ignorant git. Additionally, there are no "evolution believers". I mean, how many bloody times do we have to tell you this? Are you completely bloody stupid or what? You do not "believe" in a tenet of science. You weigh up the EVIDENCE (did you manage to read that word or shall we give you a few dictionary references for it?) and you come to a conclusion based on that EVIDENCE. You do not "have faith" or "believe in it". Only twats such as yourself apply such low-bar qualifications to the stuff you're force-fed with. We scientific types are sceptical by default. Tell us to "believe" stuff and we tell you to sod off (so sod off). We accept nothing without EVIDENCE and the EVIDENCE bar is set very high (you wouldn't understand, of course, because nothing you believe in can be corroborated by EVIDENCE). Also, do apprise us of evil done by advocates of evolution. Real evolution, not the nonsense your silly websites tell you about social "Darwinism" or Hitler (who, had he been alive today, would have been one hundred percent on your side. As yanks say, go bloody figure).

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 04:08 AM

"I like to see trees ,shimrod, and I know they are ecologically important.
but if a tree needs to come down I don't worry if I do it in the most humane way possible."

How do you chop a tree down 'humanely', pete?

And I agree with Steve, your stubborn refusal to acknowledge the difference between blind 'belief' and understanding based on evidence is getting very tiresome!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 04:27 AM

My actual task for this sunny Sunday morning. ..

Two wild cherry trees that weren't part of the landscape design when it was carried out a few years ago have now become so large they bugger the symmetry of the garden.

Humanely as I possibly can, I will saw the base with a chainsaw, rough up the stump of the trunk and pour in stump poison which over the winter will kill the roots and shrink the whole thing making it easier to dig out in the spring.

The trees will be stripped of their smaller branches (eventually to be shredded) and the trunk sawn into small logs to be dried out for my wood burning stoves.

As I said. As humanely as I can. I will keep the chainsaw behind my back till the last possible moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 06:23 AM

Well, been away for a couple of days and thought I would check back to see what was going on. Sigh. Same old, same old. Poor ol' Conc. Only has the line about crayons and stole that off me. Like I said, not an original thought in his/her/it's head. Still, 3/10 for persistence though in the hope it will eventually be funny again.

I would give up is I were you Messiah M. Still, I suppose whatever gender it is you could get a blow job. But I reckon that could be quite dangerous. Especially if it gets it wrong or if ake is about...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket blowing off
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 06:44 AM

Where there's life there's hope eh?

The only blow job today sadly is on the path leading from the orchard, got one of the those blowers to keep slippery leaves off the path. It was a pressie from my brother and today will be the first chance I get to play with it.

Humanely of course.

After murdering the trees.

And washing the car.

And enquiring of the health of my sweetikins xxxxxx

(Here, have you noticed how we never see conc and Jerk the Sea Cadet posting on the same day? Oh dear.... No.. Conc says nice things about me. Jerk would throw the PC out of the window first.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 06:48 AM

When I worked for Radcliffe Parks Dept. in 1969, one day the parks superintendent showed up with two young cherry trees, took us into the churchyard of the parish church and showed us where he wanted 'em planted. We duly removed two neat circles of turf, dug the holes out, loosened the subsoil, enriched the soil, planted and staked the trees and backfilled carefully. Lovely job done. That afternoon the super came round again, stood back looking at our handiwork, stroking his chin and frowning, and said "They're not quite right. Just dig them up and plant them again eighteen inches to the left, would you."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 07:54 AM

"what you do seem to understand, is that if you grant the greater and more distinct properties of humanity, it might lead to implications of his being made in Gods image."

I certainly don't think that at all, and I don't recognise the "greater and more distinct properties of humanity" as being exclusive to humans; it's a conceit borne of arrogance and misunderstanding. As for being made in god's image, it can never happen as there is no god, nor evidence for one, and as for Adam being a conservationist, I'll leave the theological claptrap to you Pete, it really has zero relevance as once more, it is a fairytale.


"and on what basis do you ascertain and pronounce something as evil?
...on your own subjective morality, I presume."

All our moralities are subjective, it's how we arrive at them and practice them that is the issue. In my case, my morality is built on a profound respect for all life, because we are made of star stuff and we are the universe made conscious. All life is interconnected, all life is precious and we are part of something far bigger than ourselves, a fact which expresses itself as religion in some cases, albeit with a load of todge about walking on water and fish butties thrown in by desert storytellers. My morality is based on solid science, and I don't subscribe to dogma or superstition.

The idea man has dominion over the natural world has led us to the appalling state of affairs we are in now. Two thousand years of seepage from the Abrahamic religions into the collective cultural consciousness has given this nasty and profoundly ignorant meme huge weight, with the consequence we are trashing the planet at a greater rate with each passing year. From anthropogenic climate change to the last, gasping, bloody breath of the now poached-to-extinction Western Black Rhino and fuck knows how many atrocities on a daily basis, the idea that the natural world is our to exploit whatever the cost is one of the most backward, hateful and evil concepts ever. End of.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll who is not a troll?
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 10:07 AM

Was your last post supposed to mean something shaw..planting trees in the wrong place?..its hardly earth shattering news is it?and if you don't mind me saying, a tad of thread creep wouldn't you say, phony?


just a small question, when you was putting the circles of turf back did he keep shouting "green side up!!!"..

I am surprised that you have had a job as highly skilled as digging holes and filling them in again.. a bit of a move up from stacking shelves aint it?.. or was it lamppost counting..oh sorry about that..it would have meant you learning to count..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket getting frisky
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 10:47 AM

Guess what! I have been pm'd and told that on 7 October, conc AND Jerk the Sea Cadet posted on this thread.

Hope for me yet eh?

Ye of little faith, my fellow associated gnome.....

Cooee!!   xxx

Mind you, not tonight. The old sciatica playing up after an afternoon in the garden. Still.. Better than the mass funeral yesterday.

(Lost all my tropical fish... A chemical reaction that can take off if you have too many snails, and the assassin snails weren't doing their job. A bit cut up about it to be honest. Over two dozen fish. Had to bleach the tank and filter apparatus, rinse thoroughly and dry it all... I have packed it all away for a few years now. Since April I no longer work from home so not spending all day with them in the study. The corner where the tank and stand were now has a couple of guitars on stands .)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 11:44 AM

Ye of little faith, my fellow associated gnome.....


Eeeeeh, Messiah M, glad you noticed. Little..., Gnome..., - Just pointing it out for your girlfriend woi I guess would not have understood otherwise.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 12:21 PM

just a small question, when you was putting the circles of turf back did he keep shouting "green side up!!!"..

Green side up my arse, twatess. Do you honestly think we put the turf back right up to the trees? City girl, I take it?

However, let me enlarge (as the vicar said to the duchess). To me, as well as to the late, great John Seymour, turf is manure. These days I would break up the turf and incorporate it into the mix that goes into the planting hole, ensuring that the grass is sufficiently buried to prevent regrowth. And, if Eric Robson's listening, no I'm not free to join the panel as I go to both Mass and Benediction on Sundays before rushing home to catch Songs Of Praise.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll who is not a troll?
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 05:07 PM

shaw you really are a stupid twat!! You have really legged your stupid self up with your own cleverness, knobead "we duly removed two neat circles of turf"? No good trying to justify your pseudo agricultural skills with saying "these days I would have done Blah Blah rotten blah" you fraud.Your crassness is here in black and white for all to see!!

Listen you self righteous prig, it has always been the accepted way of putting things back in the ground, either re- planting, digging ash pits,graves,relaying lawns, cricket pitches, latrines when camping or any way of disturbing TURF is to put it back without any sign of intrusion..that is why we have tools such as TURF cutters? as I have said before you are well under qualified for digging holes and filling them back in again.

What next? YES here we go again, clinker choked crayons lined up for the rusty sheriffs badge/tattered rosette/fresh bullet wound/Japanese flag..take deep breath and here we go..it will only hurt for a little while!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll who is not a troll
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 05:27 PM

Oh.....I forgot to add..brace yourself!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll who is not a troll?
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 05:32 PM

......again..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 06:47 PM

Pseudo-agricultural my arse! The matter I was referring to was, as 100% of the world's population except you realise, purely hortifriggincultural. I've planted many a tree, my fiend, and not one has succumbed to any issue relating to my technique. Au contraire, mon tosseress: the world is awash with my plantings. Why, ten years ago I raised and sold over 300 palms from seed and they now adorn Bude to the exclusion of almost everything else taller than six feet. If only you could eat the bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 07:02 PM

And by the way, sugartitties, I don't know how many friggin' trees you've ever planted (if any, they're definitely all dead, that's for sure), but you do not replace turf with no sign of disturbance around the base of a newly-planted tree unless you wish it to die (maybe you've only ever planted Leylandii, you antisocial bleeder). If I were you I should stick to what you're good at, which is probably very little unless it's ramming bundled ginger-flavoured crayons up whatever unwashed, chocolate-smothered, fish-scented orifices according to your gender you happen to possess (bumholes excluded, as we all have those - two in your case I should think, though I doubt you could distinguish them from the holes in your Polos).

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 04:10 AM

This conversation has become rather unedifying - you "bum inhabiting ginger cakes" you!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket mourning
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 04:27 AM

Aye, and nobody gives a flying about my tropical fish....

Bye Fred, Albert, Isembard, Ethel, Spunky, Flo, Dangerous Don, twinkly, Ugly catfish, the other slightly less ugly plecostomus, Brian the snail (x a few friggin' million....) Dora, Pinky, Perky, hotlips,   And all the ones I never got around to naming, especially the tetras. Nobody cares about tetras.

Fluval Edge fish tank (the large size) for sale, c/w lots of accessories.   

Sniff.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 04:32 AM

They have gone to a better place. Unless you are a Christian in which case they don't let animals in heaven.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll who is not a troll?
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 07:03 AM

Lot of anger in your posts there shaw me little manneen..Are you sure you weren'tGrowin bullied at school?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 07:14 AM

1000!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll who is not a troll?
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 07:40 AM

1001!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 08:03 AM

cleans a big, big carpet...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 08:18 AM

...for less than half a crown...

Hey, bonkers conkers, you see anger where there is none because, quaintly, you rather like the idea that you've got me goat. Just one of your many delusions, I fear. I never post in anger. Once this stops being fun that'll be the day I stop posting.

Brian the snail...? can we hold a memorial service?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 09:33 AM

Not for Brian. His secretions started the chemical reaction that turned the tank into an opaque white smelly mess in the first place. Even dissolved some of the filter media....

We can hold it for the slightly less ugly pleccy. I liked him (or her.).

Here, associated gnome of wisdom and virtue..... Are you sure tropical fish can't get into a Christian Heaven? It's a bloody good job their heaven is all fantasy then, that's all I can say...   Where did Jesus get enough loaves and fishes from then? I assumed he had post Office Parcels send a few pallet loads down via the pearly gates?

Not much point in having a heaven if you can't meet up with all your past dogs and take them on celestial walkies?   I hereby decree that the true heaven has footpaths, lamp posts, doggy bins c/w a bag dispenser and a few pussy cats to keep the dogs fit.

Oh, and fish tanks.

But no snails.   If they can't keep crapping in a small tank when their population explodes like a ruddy catholic household, they can't come to the true heaven.

Tell you what, we shan't call it heaven. We can come up with another word.

Something that inspires the concept of heaven. Somewhere where the faithful worship with wondrous joy..





Let's call it Hillsborough!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 09:46 AM

Or Anfield, where the only man indisputably greater than God, Bill Shankly, once strode...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll who is not a troll?
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 01:19 PM

tut! tut! shaw, you know the more you rant the more ridiculous you sound..do you really expect anyone to take you seriously when you are engaging with a self admitted troll?

I believe you are fantasying and been turned on by the thought of my unwashed, chocolate-smothered, fish-scented orifices.

You have now added perversion and pornography to your other pseudo horticultural, ginger cake inhabited,centrist, pseudo academic pretensions.

Quite frankly, you have gone past the crayons stage..time to move on to the Vaseline and rubber bag lady..will that float yer boat ducky?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 01:55 PM

Was one of them degrees English as a second language, Conc? What is fantasying?

Oh, and do you actually know the difference between engaging someone in conversation and taking the piss?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 03:25 PM

This just gets weirder!

Dead fishy snail bum inhabitant ginger cake, anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll who is not a troll?
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 03:29 PM

sigh......don't say I have to explain to you little man.. there is no difference between engaging someone in CONVERSATION and taking the piss thicko..

Everyone on mudcat takes the piss out of every one else, even you should know that; if you spent more time reading instead of picking up on small typos you may get the drift.I mean to say you take the piss out of all of us by pretending to be smart don't you?

"Taking the piss is a British term meaning to take liberties at the expense of others, or to be unreasonable. It is often used to mean taking the piss out of, which is an expression meaning to mock, tease, ridicule, or scoff". ... I think nearly all that applies to you one way or 'tother..especially taking liberties with our intelligence!!

Shaw wouldn't even know how to take the piss as you so elegantly put it, he is that far up his own arse with his horticultural pretensions.

cant you see phony, it is ME that is taking the piss out of you lot?

Promise me you will at least try and get with the program.. you are starting to bore me..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket the missionary man
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 04:11 PM

Hi cuddlybuns! XxxX





Actually co Messiah S. I did think of a role for Anfield. We don't seem to have a purgatory yet. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll who is not a troll?
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 06:08 PM

Mwah!. Musket sweety...How is the fish smelling bag lady working out shaw? need any more Vaseline?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 06:33 PM

Zzzzzzzzzzzz.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 06:35 PM

cant you see phony, it is ME that is taking the piss out of you lot?

This sounds suspiciously like a desperate appeal (which we've heard several times now) to a congregation that won't wake up. Lemme tell you summat, bonkers conkers. To successfully take the piss out of people, the supposed targets must come to realise that they've had the piss taken out of them and everyone observing must come to realise that a successful piss-take has been executed. You fail epically on both counts. Try something different!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 19 Nov 13 - 03:50 AM

Now then Co Messiah and associated gnome.

About 12 years ago, before meeting Mrs Musket, a girlfriend used to blow kisses to me on emails and texts by using the term "Mwah! "

Errr... This was the one in Knott End. ........

Has our religion managed to beat Christianity to the second coming? ??

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,troll from knott end
Date: 19 Nov 13 - 04:08 AM

Mwah! Mwah! Mwah!.. the flame still burns sweetums xxxxxx

You got it wrong again shithead..the congregation as you put it has copped it self on and realise I am a proper troll..not being up their own arses such as you the stumble-bum gnome( actually in true gnome fashion he has fallen asleep)!

They have either left the thread like seaman staynes or refused to engage with me like the mega fraud wizzjet; that only leaves you and my sweet baby muskett.

Well muskett am the man, so that only leaves one judgmental, ginger woosy, cake inhabitant pseudo horticultural knob-head, who is that arrogant and stooooooooooooooopid he keeps coming back at me........who could that be do yer think fraud? Talking about trying something different have you tried finding a sense of humour?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket musing
Date: 19 Nov 13 - 06:06 AM

I do sincerely hope there wasn't a missing "I" in that first sentence. I try not to do anything that makes my eyes water.

If the flame still burns it would be because a certain someone put all my academic certificates on the fire. And some shares certificates. And before a certain mudcat.org member reminds us, I'll get it in first. . And cut up my clothes with bacon scissors and dumped the rags on the ex Mrs Musket's lawn.....

This co Messiah really knows persecution. No wonder I got the job.

Hopefully you would understand me better my sweetikins xxxx

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 13 - 09:38 AM

pseudo horticultural

Killed any good cherry trees with turf lately?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll who is not a troll?
Date: 19 Nov 13 - 02:24 PM

Muskett...................still loves yer baby xxx!!!

As for you shaw..you begrumpled, cake eating fratchy, ginger inhabited ninny hammer..!! Still showing your superior conversational skills - not!! Bring it all on oaf, you have nearly driven every one away with your buffoonery and your phony horticultural pretensions!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket floating
Date: 19 Nov 13 - 03:12 PM

Live the dream lover! xxxxxxxx



This co Messiah really has what it takes eh?

I reckon it's the Liverpool bit. It cramps your style and the sophisticated real ladies such as conc see straight through it.

Best stick to the true heaven in S6 me old Co Messiah. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Musket
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 08:34 AM

Typical. The minute I sign in with my cookie, they all lose interest in the one true religion.

I bet Jesus didn't have to put up with this lack of ruddy enthusiasm....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 09:31 AM

I temporarily lost interest after last night when I typed a bloody great big long amusing witty post only to see it vanish into mysterious nothingness as I hit the last full stop. I refuse to reconstruct it, but the two themes therein may be summed up as follows:

(a) Conkers is an amusing yet useless twat;

(b) Don't just say God, say Shankly.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll who is not a troll?
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 03:54 PM

shaw,due to your self centered buffoonery you have effectively closed downs a superb religious, intellectual discussion   thread,,

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 04:12 PM

Ok. I grudgingly accept that Shankly was a demi God. If you happen to be a scouser with Scottish roots. Ok? (Derek Dooley topped him till his being cast from heaven and being tempted by the pits of hell.)

Conkers is an amusing pastime. Whacking your nuts together with a purpose can be fun. Although if the other person has no nuts, for me all the better.

Hey lover! Can we get this sorted before I start buying you flowers and the occasional milk stout. ... have you got an obvious Adams apple? Not an issue, cosmopolitan man of the world and all that. ... but having driven me to distraction, I need to know if there is a reverse gear. Or indeed a gear knob.... xxx

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll who is not a troll?
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 04:13 PM

I am outa here........by, by, my sweet baby muskett..mwah..mwah!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 04:32 PM

Blimey, conc, make your mind up. First everyone is a pseudo intellectual with ginger cake up their bums. Now you are accusing people of contributing to a "superb religious, intellectual discussion   thread". Still, you still manage to misspell down and bye. Got to be good for a laugh init?

Still, we know that you must really be 'outa here' because we know you never tell lies. Good to have met you.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 07:23 PM

Jeez, for one minute I thought you said Adnam's apple there, Had conkers had that I'd have rapidly come to love him or her dearly. Actually, I possibly already do. Don't leave me, twatess!

OK, Bill Shankly, who sitteth on the right hand of the Father, rescued Liverpool and made them into the potential force for the future that they ultimately became. So I buy "demi-god", yeah? But "demi" means "half", innit. So to make a god we need another half, yeah (bit like you an' me)? So Bob Paisley, huh? The giant that became a greater giant having stood on the shoulders of a giant? The god of few words but of many trophies? Can we be quiet about Sheff Wed now, lest I resurrect talk of that mighty night in the 60s when Jimmy Mac and the great Burnley team slaughtered t'Owls in t'FA Cup? At which I was present innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 02:35 AM

False idolatry. You have been tempted by shiny baubles. Trophy cabinets should be austere with the occasional FA Cup from medieval times and the resurrection. (1991 League Cup under the prophet Ron Atkinson. )

Does this mean its over beloved? I never got to serenade you or buy you a bag of chips with scraps. Still, you recognised talent from an early start and that can't be all bad. I notice my co Messiah is making overtures. I can heartily recommend him if you feel you aren't quite up to my standards. Ok, the gob iron recitals may take some getting used to and he wouldn't make a good teacher when it comes to football. ..

Perhaps we can start a thread on what our standards used to be before the ball and chain? Mine were fairly high for a teenage lad living in Worksop. Two tits and a heartbeat.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 05:48 AM

Nah, we can discuss it here. Intentional thread hijacking (hi, Jack!) is, after all, one of the tenets of the new religion. We can start with advice from the Daily Mash: http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/health/low-standards-key-to-a-good-sex-life-2012090439853
Would have worked well in Worksop.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 12:45 PM

Every lad in Worksop lived by their famous motto


vade deformis diluculo

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 07:55 PM

"Illegitimes non friggin' carborundum, nob 'ead" was us Notlob lads' recipe for life.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 03:29 AM

Evolution versus creation?
At the risk of sounding radical, you could always form your own view rather than find comfort in trawling for those that fit your preconceptions?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 03:51 AM

it is hard not to see the merit in questioning the scientists who would wear their atheism on their sleeves.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 04:44 AM

Nice try Keith.

(I must apologise for the old fool. He gets confused, thinking he is on the armistice day thread. I must have hit a nerve.)

Dear Keith,

I wouldn't know. I'm not an atheist.

Luv &hugs

Musket.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 04:57 AM

Yes, I was quoting Musket on that thread but transposing scientist for historian.

Musket rejects the historians version of that bit of history, and has made up his own.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 09:40 AM

Well hello!! just popped in for a little intellectual discourse about atheism and militancy and what do I find?

A lot of self opinionated nonsense and foolish posturing by people who, quite frankly are very C3 in intellect..I may not stay around very long..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 10:09 AM

Well, Keith, yes you can form your own view but you do better if you look for evidence first. I've trawled around for evidence of creationism long and hard (and had bogus evidence drummed into me all my life) and I can't find any. There is a mass of real-deal evidence for evolution. If there wasn't, maybe I'd toss a coin or something or just not bother. But never assume that someone who has formed what is for them an honest view has got there by partiality. Nearly everyone I know who has decided on creationism has reached it either by brainwashing or by stupidity. If you know of anyone who got there any other way, let's be hearing about 'em.

Do you question scientists who wear their religion on their sleeves? Surely there is far more danger there of inconsistency. At least heart-on-sleeve atheists (who, incidentally, only rattle on about their atheism for fun on these threads, and hardly ever in the real world, so what price "heart-on-sleeve"?) go about their work and their interpretation of God in more or less the same way. A religious scientist has to be rigorous in interpreting evidence in one area of his life and completely eschew evidence in another. That must be hard sometimes. Atheist scientists who actually bother to think much about their atheism can apply the evidence test equally to both God and to their work. Much easier.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 10:16 AM

I may not stay around very long..

Aw, don't go, conkers meduck! You add such lightness to our discourse! Lightness akin to the holes in Swiss cheese or the in-between bits in puff pastry or the bubbles in a Wispa! All of them completely empty of content, but such fun!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 10:16 AM

I agree Steve.
Those were Musket's words, but on the subject of history.

He rejects the experts' (historians) findings and makes up something he finds easier to believe in.

Very much like the religious fundamentalists he ridicules for the same behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 10:44 AM

Keith has been trawling for historians who say the First World War was well led and the soldiers knew why they were fighting etc.

He rejects the black propaganda, the decisions to sacrifice men in their thousands with their whistles and ladders and the rest of the facts of war.

He then thinks that as I treat articles in The Daily Telegraph and Daily M*il with a healthy pinch of salt. I have no right questioning the bible and other such nonsense.

Buggered if I know what he is on about, but if reckon the idea is to make me look a twat.

Mind you, he says he had belief but doesn't believe. So if you try to question his logic, you'll get nowhere. He'll tell you he is a Christian and it is disrespectful to question his hypocrisy.

At lead he isn't a bad bloke. Round the fecking bend and daft as a brush, but he is harmless enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 11:00 AM

you could always form your own view

Did it years ago.

Gnomes first law. When going uphill, the universe expands making the journey longer.

Gnomes second law. When coming downhill the universe contracts making the journey shorter.

Gnomes third law. Oxygen is in short supply. When I was young gnome there was plenty of it and I could breath when I reached the top of a mountain. Many years later I am gasping for breath halfway up and therefore the oxygen must be running out.

Gnomes fourth law. Everyone has a limited number of heartbeats. To increase the heart rate is therefore to accelerate your demise.

Gnomes fifth law. There is no Gnomes fifth law.

Gnomes sixth law. The sun is cold. The higher up a mountain you get, and thereby nearer the sun, the colder it is. Ergo the sun must radiate coldness.

Gnome on creation. People think there are no female Gnomes and we must have, therefore, sprung out of the earth. The truth is there are female Gnomes and even baby Gnomes but as we all have beards and look alike it is difficult for mortals to tell the difference. Not that we indulge in sexual procreation or any other such rubbish. It is all to do with the primal soup in the fish pond. And possibly ducks.

There, everything you needed to know.

:D tG

PS - Conc, how can we ever trust you again now you have gone back on your word...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 12:05 PM

You forgot Shaw's Law: In any journey made on foot or pushbike that starts and finishes in the same place, the amount of uphill travel will be exactly three times the amount of downhill travel.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 12:08 PM

Either I am forgetting to proof read or this %*#%^!! iPad is using it's suggested words after I press submit....

"At lead he isn't a bad bloke..." When I try giving him the benefit of the doubt, my iPad seems to know better.

Anyway Keith, at least when on the subject of physics versus biblical nonsense, I don't have to look for quotes by others. At a guess without looking, I'd say my published PhD thesis on mechanical vibration contradicts the earth stopping spinning during a biblical war and the arrow of time in entropy, within the second law of thermodynamics prevents either the earth being made in seven days or even Jesus or Lazarus coming back from the dead.

Soldiers in the First World War didn't come back from the dead either, poor misguided buggers.



Hi cuddlebuns! I thought you had stopped posting here? I know I am difficult to forget but hey, The co messiah isn't too bad other than his Liverpool & gob iron fixation and you are safe from the associated gnome as he only likes women with beards, apparently. (I wondered why Betty Swollox had a bounce in her step the other month...)

Howsabout we bake some ginger cakes together some time? I hear you can knead them on a Potters wheel xxxxxx

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 01:21 PM

Hi Messiah S, see Gnomes laws 1&2 - Confirms Shaw's law. Must say, that Shaw's Law alliterates better than Gnomes Law but then again, you are a deity.

BTW - I know a bloke who reckoned he could cycle from Lymm to Worsley and back again going downhill all the way. And it wasn't Conc!

Good candidate for our new religion?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 03:04 PM

Muskets law. Bikes come with batteries and a powered front wheel these days.

Living in North Lincolnshire has a positive effect on hill issues too.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 04:25 PM

Musket, your need to lie about this tells us all we need to know.

"He then thinks that as I treat articles in The Daily Telegraph and Daily M*il with a healthy pinch of salt."
Lie.
A telegraph book review and an essay by historian Sir Max Hastings published in the Mail.
The vast majority of my evidence is from the BBC History site.

"I have no right questioning the bible and other such nonsense."
Complete lie.
I question it myself.
Any thinking person would.

Do look at the Armistice thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 04:42 PM

Do look at the Armistice thread.
Not a mention of the bible!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 06:02 PM

That's because you are posting on a religion debate thread you daft cunt.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 08:10 PM

I know a bloke who reckoned he could cycle from Lymm to Worsley and back again going downhill all the way.

Yebbut he was being allegorical innit...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 02:11 AM

Well. I looked at the armistice thread.

What do I do next?








Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 02:50 AM

How about "Those scientists should know better" instead of "Those historians should know better" ?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 03:02 AM

Musket,You claimed I told you " I have no right questioning the bible and other such nonsense."

Not on any thread.
A deliberate lie.
Why do you need to make up shit like that?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 04:48 AM

Why question science? Better to question translations of fairy stories.

In reality, you are relying on commentary of historians in your stance. I am by any definition a scientist. I may not think of myself as such these days but the research, the doctorate etc puts my take on scientific claims at the level of the historian not the sad old man dragging it out of context. Further up this thread, Steve Shaw gives an excellent definition of scientific research. It isn't the same as a newspaper editor asking a hack for a serialised take on war that fits their readership profile.

That's why.

You really are weird. Your logic is that because I doubt the objectiveness of a political journalist who writes a history book or two, I shouldn't agree with scientific research?

When I first came across you I thought you were literate and could tie your own shoelaces. Ok, you wore your agenda on your sleeve and was a bit right wing. No problem till you started insulting people's intelligence to push your outlook on life.

Quick! Look! Over there! That's a straw that is.   If you are quick enough you can grasp it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 05:35 AM

In reality, you are relying on commentary of historians in your stance

Correct.
That is rational behaviour.
You reject the findings of historians, choosing instead to believe a narrative based on your own personal perspective.

That is exactly analogous to what the fundamentalists do, and you ridicule them for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 05:43 AM

It isn't the same as a newspaper editor asking a hack for a serialised take on war that fits their readership profile.

I have produced pages of documented history, mostly from the BBC History site, but from numerous other historians also.

In amongst all that was an essay by military historian Sir Max Hastings, based on his latest book, which happened to get published in the Mail.
Also a review of the book by another eminent military historian in the Telegraph.

Why the need to lie Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 07:29 AM

Science and history are two entirely different things. The findings in science rely on repeatable and measurable experimentation. The findings in history rely on the writings and recollection of that most imperfect organism - Man. Let us take an example. Various miners strikes. Do we believe that the miners were 'reds under the beds' or that the government were oppressing the workers. Both stories have been reported. As an historian which do you put in your book?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 08:38 AM

As an ex miner I was and still am a dirty rotten stinking capitalist.

That said, I was arrested and let off before being processed for violent behaviour and possible ABH. What happened was, I was in the queue for the food hamper at the Miners Welfare, as we had a baby so qualified for the charity of others. Some lads who claimed to be from SWP, but not miners came into the car park and goaded some policemen nearby to fight.   Some of us decided to join in.

We beat the crap out of the agitators. Confused Plod (Merseyside that week) started changing their attitude after that.

Of course, in history you were either a blind faith communist or a capitalist lackey breaking the strike.

In reality, we were people who couldn't understand why the government wanted to destroy us and our union wanting to effect a change of government using us as a tool rather than the ballot box.

The history according to Th*tcher would be very different to that written by Scargill. His conveniently brushes over when we at college kept on our courses which upset some animals who told us not to go. We told them to bollocks. A week later a piece of paper was pushed through my letterbox saying at what time my wife pushed the pram to her mother's house each day.

Like I say, history accounts reflect the prejudice of the writer.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 12:00 PM

A historian will study contemporary documents and source material, and base his findings on verifiable facts.
His rivals will then scrutinise his work and expose any inadequacies or false conclusions.
Very much like Science.

As with Science there are often differences on some issues, but a consensus on others.

There is a consensus among historians about aspects of WW1.
I base my views on that.

Musket has been unable to find one historian to support his views.

Like a fundamentalist, that just makes him more adamant.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 12:29 PM

That's right. I can't find a single account of the war other than the ones you found. So every soldier was there for the right reasons, they were well led and nobody died through callous disregard for the men under their command.

Now, we can all go home and scrape butter over our crumpets whilst listening to The Archers and reading Rupert the Bear to our grand children.




Tell you what, co Messiah and associated gnome. Thread drift is one thing, but this dozy twat drifts his incoherent bilge between ruddy threads. I thought it was only Akenhateon who stalked me around the site, but this stalker is at least, in his own Col Blimp worshipping way, mostly harmless. Possibly a member of the human race too, other than the right wing tendencies and little England complex.

Do you think we could make him head of twisting reality? Other religions tend to have them, and when you see them on the telly they can be almost as irritating as Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 12:57 PM

That's right. I can't find a single account of the war other than the ones you found

But you still do not accept it.
Just like a fundy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 01:24 PM

A historian will study contemporary documents and source material, and base his findings on verifiable facts.

But there are so many verifiable facts, Keith. Ask 100 people for their version of events and you will get 101 different stories. Sorry, but science isn't like that.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 01:39 PM

I am not an expert on evolution, but I bet there is debate about the fine detail.
I know that there are many versions of how the Universe began, and about its subsequent evolution.

As more information becomes available, the theories are improved or rejected.

There is consensus about many things.
We can be quite certain about the expansion and how ordinary matter was formed.
About 90% is not normal matter and we do not yet have consensus on what it is.

It really is like history.
If you want to know about history, a rational person reads the history books.
Musket rejects what they say, like the fundies reject the Science books

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 02:38 PM

If you want to know about history,a rational person reads the history books

Yes Keith, but which history books? Unlike scientific facts there are so many to chose from and so many that disagree with each other. Sorry but history and science are as similar as chalk and cheese.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 04:13 PM

Yeah, well Keith is bending over backwards here trying out his balanced-rational bit, appealing to historical scholarship, etc. But, if you've never seen it (and don't mind torturing yourself), do take a look at his contributions on any thread concerning Israel/Palestine. He's the absolute master of denial and revisionism. And don't even begin to think of engaging me on that topic in this thread, Keith. Resurrect one of the others if you like, but this is not about Israel/Palestine. It's all about you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 05:36 PM


Yes Keith, but which history books? Unlike scientific facts there are so many to chose from and so many that disagree with each other.

No Dave.
There are Scientific facts and ongoing researches.
There is consensus and debate as in History.

On the issues we were discussing there is unanimity.
Consensus.
Like William the Bastard invaded in 1066.
No dispute, unless it is Musket, Greg, Jim and Don again.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 02:22 AM

Err that list of mudcatters is a little longer than that Keith. ....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 04:56 AM

A guest called Troubadour with an unusual posting history.
None of you have found a single historian to support your views, because they are false.

Everything I say is supported by all of them, because I formed my views by reading history.
Yours derive from your politics.
You make up your own history to suit your preconceptions.
Lies actually.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket pissing himself
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 05:20 AM

You derive your views from reading?

When I asked you to look up and read the short essay available on many websites about peoples' sense of false servility, you said you didn't have time.

Obviously, anything written by Isaac Uminmassa is beneath you....



Anyway, back to the spirit of the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 05:43 AM

"Everything I say is supported by all of them, because I formed my views by reading history."

One side's history only (with one German exception which chanced to agree with you).

Highly suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 05:48 AM

"A guest called Troubadour with an unusual posting history.
None of you have found a single historian to support your views, because they are false."

Unusual history. Did you get that from Max Hastings?

You haven't found any conflicting with YOUR views because you don't want to find any and haven't looked.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket giggling
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 05:54 AM

Not even his side. Many many UK commentators have described the events. He picks out the apologists for the establishment.

I used to read a lot of Isaac Asimov but I don't drag the laws of robotics into the real world....

(I read Viz too. Ivan Jelical is good, The Fat Slags are bang on and Sid the Sexist must have been a Geordie cousin of a bloke I used to work with down the pit. 8 Ace is really a bloke called Barrie who I used to drink with. Seriously, must be. Even his missus looks like her!)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 09:09 AM

I do not pick Musket.
Nothing else to pick from.

You haven't found any conflicting with YOUR views because you don't want to find any and haven't looked.

I have looked and I am quite sure all of you have tried to find something, anything, to contradict me.
Jim has now had weeks of frantic Googling.

You have found nothing between all of you.
That is because my views are based on historical fact, and yours are made up.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 09:57 AM

Co Messiah and associated gnome. Are you SURE you don't wish to try and recruit Keith?

Look at him. He's very good. All his views are factual and everybody else's are made up. Surely ideal fodder for furthering the bollocks religions need to carry out to survive?

By the way, if we do recruit him, don't let him go onto historynet.com or similar websites, he may see things that would fundamentally disturb his assured cocky posing. In fact, just set him up with a PC that can only access The Daily M*il and Her Majesty's Daily Telegraph. Otherwise, he might lose some of arrogance he is portraying, and then he'd be bloody useless to us as well as society in general.

We could use him to persecute a few Christians. He's good at that. Or at least he should be, he never stops rattling on about the subject..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 10:17 AM

Very good, but you can not find any history that supports your view.
Funny that.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 05:15 PM

You have found nothing between all of you.
That is because my views are based on historical fact, and yours are made up.

Now don't go getting yourself all hysterical now, Keith.

By the way, anyone bothered to look up Keith's multifarious takes on Israel/Palestine? The absolute epitome of selectiveness and revisionism. Someone ought to do a thesis on him.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 05:42 PM

My views are calmly based on historical fact.
On ME threads, all I have ever done is put Israel's side of the story.
No fair minded person could object.
Why bring that up Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 06:04 PM

Because it gives abundant context to those people on this thread who might not have experienced your abysmal one-sided take on history. You have history, in other words, as it were. Or maybe not.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 10:40 PM

Dawkins finds religion.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/science-technology/johansson-photos-change-everything-says-dawkins-201109164314

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 02:04 AM

So you brought it up to try and discredit me Steve.
And you had to lie.
I really have only put Israel's side of the story.
Only Bobad and B Bruce do that compared to the swarms and swarms of you putting The anti-Israel line.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket and Keith Show
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 02:40 AM

Hang on. Can we drag it back a bit?

Wonderful as ever to have Keith joining this thread and I am sure we will all get the chance to welcome him personally as he settles into his role. He has joined us at an interesting time what with Jack and Ron having been quiet lately and I am sure Keith will plug that gap admirably.

Keith is the world's leading expert on military history, Israeli politics and Christian bleating.   Perhaps we can all help by drawing him more into the latter, saving his wisdom on the former two for the relevant threads? I am sure he will give us full entertainment value if we stick to God bothering.

After all, he has read all the book.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 05:38 AM

Like William the Bastard invaded in 1066. No dispute...

But that is not the only fact about the event 1s it Keith? There are hundreds of others and only the ones which fit that particular historians agenda get into his book. Of course there is debate and consensus in science as well but to suggest that history is the same is, at best, disingenuous.

Beside, who said their is no dispute? By saying it was in 1066 you are displaying bias towards the Christian ideology. By my reckoning it should be 947 BCM (Before Co-Messiahs)

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 06:01 AM

I can not agree.
Science says the Universe expanded from a singularity 14 billion years ago.
Consensus, but there is no consensus over the detail (inflation, string theory, etc.)

Likewise with 1066.

I made only 3 claims on the other thread.
1.Britain had no choice but to stand against the invading German armies.
No historian I am aware of disputes that.

2.People mostly volunteered because they accepted that.
That is shown from diaries, letters and recollections.

3.Despite disastrous mistakes as an entirely new form of warfare was learned, the army was generally well led.
Again I am not aware of any modern military historian disputing that.

Musket and co. challenge all three because they need to.
No evidence.
Just like the fundies.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 06:27 AM

Well, disagreement is fine and I am happy to accept that people will disagree with my views. Bringing other threads that I, and a number of other people, have not read, is beyond me I'm afraid so I have no choice but to discontinue that discussion. I am not an all knowing deity I'm afraid...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 06:38 AM

Science says the Universe expanded from a singularity 14 billion years ago.

Where did you read that gem? Daily M*ail? Science says nothing. People employ the scientific method to reach conclusions from evidence. Most evidence points to the Big Bang as the most likely explanation for the origin of the universe. But there are gaps. No-one of scientific leaning is saying that there was a Big Bang. We're saying that the evidence points that way. That's the difference 'twixt us and the God Squad. We don't deal in certainties.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 06:39 AM

We discussed the fundamentalists' dismissal of scientific evidence on this thread.
I just made the comparison of Musket dismissing historical evidence in the same way, when he ridiculed the fundies.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 06:44 AM

Steve, the expansion is an established fact.
There is debate about the details.
As you say, "gaps."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 07:20 AM

No-one of scientific leaning is saying that there was a Big Bang.
Er, yes they do.
I am a subscriber to New Scientist and have been for years.
It is referred to all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 07:52 AM

People of scientific leaning say there probably was a Big Bang, according to the evidence we have available. People who say there was a Big Bang are not people of scientific leaning. I would never assume that popular science magazines are infested exclusively by people of scientific leaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 08:08 AM

Well the scientists who write in New Scientist write of the bang as an established fact.
They do.
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket laughing
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 08:10 AM

And if you take the wrapper off, you might wish to read it.

The Big Bang is the most likely event that can account for what we can observe and deduce. The "age" of the universe as a reference point is continuously being updated, not to age the universe as such but to give perspective to distance.

As I say, if you take the wrapper off and get someone to read it to you, you might eventually notice that. You may also realise what utter bollocks you are talking when trying to make me look a cunt. If you put as much effort into it as you do making yourself look stupid, you might get somewhere.

By the way, look down, about two inches to the side of your left foot. That is where the singularity began. Not that it was a singularity before the Big Bang because the Big Bang, as far as we can understand at present, didn't happen. But it possibly did, or nothing fits. To happen, there has to be a time before it happened, and that is where the grown ups see a problem. Time as an absolute in the observable universe is a result not a factor of the Big Bang.

In the beginning, there was no beginning......

So... Tell us all about this word consensus you keep using. Any chance of slipping it into a sentence where it is appropriate?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 08:13 AM

The Big Bang
Timeline of the universe - big bang expansion over 13.7 billion years. © NASA / WMAP Science Team
By Marcus Chown, cosmology consultant for New Scientist

What was the Big Bang?

About 13.7 billion years ago, the Universe burst into being in a titanic explosion called the Big Bang. Out of the expanding and cooling debris eventually congealed the galaxies, great islands of stars of which our own Milky Way is one.

How do we know there was a Big Bang?
......
http://royalsociety.org/news/metro/the-big-bang/

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 08:16 AM

I really do not try to make you look a cunt, but I can't stop you can I.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 08:23 AM

Stephen Hawking (what does he know Musket?

"At this time, the Big Bang, all the matter in the universe, would have been on top of itself. The density would have been infinite. It would have been what is called, a singularity."
http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 08:40 AM

People who say there was a Big Bang are not people of scientific leaning.

Not Hawking then.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 09:23 AM

Really?

And who said there was no Big Bang ?

Who said there was no singularity ?

Who said the present estimate in time was other than 13.7 billion years ?


So quick to try and look smug, you show here how you read what you want to read rather than what is actually said.

I do apologise for catching you out in an old trick one of my lecturers taught us, relying on fools to just pick up on key words rather than their context.

Obviously, this blind wish to have things say what you want them to say negates the usefulness of taking anything you say seriously. But we know that from your hilarious track record of saying something odd then quoting sources that often contradict you anyway.

Is it just you or does Hertford have a commune of them?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 09:27 AM

Keith laughing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 09:34 AM

Just to remind ~~

I once, some years ago, OPd a thread called "What went Big Bang?", which ran for quite a while (Sep 09 - Nov 12):

To summarise ---

Answer came there none.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 10:49 AM

Don't worry Keith.

As they say...

He who laughs last doesn't understand the joke.






Michael. If the Big Bang happened in the forest, we might not hear it anyway as the jury is out on whether it makes a sound. Mind you, if I wanted to know what went Big Bang, a group of folk music aficionados might not be the first group I would ask?

In "A brief History of Time" Prof. Hawking does point out it is metaphor, in the same way as relating the occurrence to a point in time. For time to have meaning, position must too, giving us a four dimensional reference. Hawking notes that as the first three dimensions are irrelevant, (it occurred everywhere and is expanding from everywhere) therefore the final dimension, time, has no significance.

The 13.7 billion years relates to a theoretical starting point of entropy, and not to an explosion of the sort that would have my dog wake up barking.

In order to explain it to people who either don't buy or haven't figured out how to take the wrapper off New Scientist, such constructs are necessary. I'm about as qualified as you can get in my particular physics interest, but I can't get beyond requiring the comfort blanket of big bangs and time, and I suspect that goes for us all, the good Prof included.

(I buy it to look at the pretty pictures of course.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 11:37 AM

"That is shown from diaries, letters and recollections."

If, and only if, you call all who didn't agree liars, which is, without doubt what you do.

You do the same with Israel, putting only the one side and calling the other side liars and murderers when many more Palestinians have been, and still are being, killed by IDF than vice versa.

Your idea of balance is "My side is right, so I won't look at contrary evidence".

Funny that!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 11:51 AM

Thank you, Ian. That was a much better, more helpful answer than I ever got on that old thread - "Beginning of entropy" quite an apprehensible concept.

As to appropriateness of asking on this forum ~~ tho peopled by folkies, many of them have other interests & qualifications too. Why, I was even a theatre critic too, way back in the day... So ask me about Æschylus or Noel Coward or Pirandello or Corneille or Beaumont·&·Fletcher, why dontcha, and see how well I can waffle...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 12:43 PM

1100!

I was very fond of my Morris 1100.

Michael, I wasn't commenting on the expertise of fellow mudcatters, especially as this thread alone has regular scientists, teachers and wringer outers for one armed window cleaners... Just that with the usual suspects, myself included, weighing in on any subject, you aren't going to get anywhere with such weighty matters! After all, one whiff of this subject and Keith looks up two quotes and makes his mind up, about as neatly as I make my bed....

Beginning of entropy as a concept is in itself abstract. As entropy is why the second law of thermodynamics holds, then the arrow of time has to be in one direction. The Big Bang is based on grabbing hold of the string attached to said arrow of time and following it back to where it started.

My needing to understand such matters ended in 1999 when my own research into vibration came to a sort of conclusion. (Fascinated to see one of my equations has been thrown in the bin. I was on his viva panel.)

Of course, Keith may already be looking up two more quotes to put me down and I may be peddling in made up shit. Beauty is, however, in the eye of the beholder.


(He may not. The lazy sod still hasn't looked up that essay on servility to your betters by Isaac Uminmassa that I asked him to read.)




Do you think Noël Coward enjoyed or regretted his swansong in the Italian Job?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 12:52 PM

I think he will have enjoyed it ~~ his tastes in parts were as varied and versatile as his achievements so far as I can see. A man of the theatre I much admire, you will gather... & it was after all a most distinguished film, and his part, tho smallish, quite vital.

So now we are discussing Noel Coward ... How far can a drift drift before entropy takes over and it falls off the edge, I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 12:55 PM

Apologies for omitting the diacritic on Noël. Shudder to think what he might have had to say to me about it...!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 03:02 PM

My statement.
"Steve, the expansion is an established fact.
There is debate about the details."

I was challenged in a most insulting and derogatory way.
Why?

Troubadour, I only call people liar when they lie.
Why is it wrong for Israel's side to be given?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 03:42 PM

Here's the thing, in words of one syllable (the word "Hawking" has two, so excuse me that one): I think there was a Big Bang. Hawking thinks there was a Big Bang. I don't know for sure that there was a Big Bang. Hawking don't know for sure that there was a Big Bang (he'd tell you that if you asked him). It looks like there was a Big Bang to both of us. But we just don't know for sure. We have to look to science for the facts which point to a Big Bang. The facts do seem to point that way, big time. Could just be that the Big Bang did not take place, but I doubt that, and I think Hawking doubts that too. So there.

Hey, look at that ! Words of one syllable (except for "Hawking" - Stephen, may I call you "Steve"? Great name, you know!)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 03:50 PM

Is it just you or does Hertford have a commune of them?

Oi, wotchit, Co-M! My lad lives in Hertford. Bloody good scientist he is too!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 04:13 PM

Well make sure he doesn't spend too much time in the pub with the locals, it may be infectious.

Hang on... my youngest lectures at Liverpool University. .... mind you, there aren't too many amateur scientists in the pubs down Toxteth. As my lad is doing a PhD research into microprocessor problems with quantum tunnelling, the only chips they understand come with fish. Only instead of asking if you want mushy peas they ask if you would like a semi rolex. .....



Noel Coward? Easy.   Turned the thread into scouse baiting now.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 05:20 PM

"Science" has two syllables.

Yah·yah·yah ~~ silly old Steve can't count!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 05:34 PM

No.
He is quite emphatic Steve.
"At this time, the Big Bang, all the matter in the universe, would have been on top of itself. The density would have been infinite. It would have been what is called, a singularity."
http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 05:40 PM

Hawking.
"The conclusion of this lecture is that the universe has not existed forever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 06:15 PM

What gets me is that somewhere recently, might have been this thread, might have been one about eating baked beans, I forget.

Keith said he doesn't believe everything in the Bible literally. Yet everything else he reads he throws in your face as being better than you so shut up.

What you got against the Bible then Keith? Imagine him finding an eminent historian who disagrees with Max Hastings, the retired tabloid hack. He'd be spinning in circles the rest of his sad life.

If you must quote Hawking, quote him in context. His publications are prefaced with the philosophy of hypothesis. This allows a more assertive style of writing.

Did you know that or are text books dangerous when you are around?

At least political manifestos are unequivocal. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 06:56 PM

"Science" has two syllables.

Ah, ya nit-picking owld bugger you! I'll have you know that, for the sake of that post, I'd taken to using the posh Beeb pronunciation "sarnce". One syllable! I'd even thought of calling Stephen Hawking "Hawks" for the sake of monosyllabic purity, but, as I hadn't asked him...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 06:59 PM

Well make sure he doesn't spend too much time in the pub with the locals, it may be infectious.

Don't worry, I've warned him.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 02:08 AM

"If you must quote Hawking, quote him in context."

I did.
That is why you can not put up anything to contradict

"Yet everything else he reads he throws in your face as being better than you"

Not everything, but Hawking does know more even that you Musket.
Likewise professional historians.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 03:35 AM

Do you think Noël Coward enjoyed or regretted his swansong in the Italian Job?

How could anyone regret working with Michael Cain and Benny Hill?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket giggling
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 04:15 AM

But but but. ..

That imaginary friend of yours created it all in seven days. It says so in your Bible.

Hawking talks bollocks then.

Zzzzzzzzz




Mind you, the final sentence of "A brief history of time" is somewhat unfortunate. You'd be surprised the number of God botherers who grasped at it. .... He did say afterwards that with hindsight he wouldn't have fed the fools, as he put it.

He may be fun to laugh at but Keith's simple naive approach to reading and quoting snippets with no room for context or debate is perhaps a good a reason as any why some of us are taking the piss out of philosophical threads, such as this one.

He represents the risk in making discovery accessible. for Clapton's sake nobody tell him Hawking based most of that work within his forming the grand unified theory (GUT. ) As a result, quite a bit has been revised. But as it is published, it might confuse Keith to hear that something published by someone he has heard of could be contradicted? But surely. ......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 04:20 AM


As a result, quite a bit has been revised.

Of course.
The age of the universe is known to be less now, but what I said was an established fact still is.
You were wrong to make your abusive and nasty challenge.
I was right and you were wrong again.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 08:04 AM

Come back seaman staynes, sulky baby wizzjet and the rest of them joyless ball scratching, self righteous balloons..At least there was some sport to be had with them..

This new lot are even further up their own arses than the last lot!

Mind, the clown gnomet has come back, bridling and sidling with his shit eating grin on his smug little face to join shaw the arch fraud..you would have thought he had enough be now..but NO!!! he just cant resist airing his crap again..

But Lo! who is the kieth ahateford?..dear me must be a boy scout leader or a telegraph reading small liberal,,any way he JUst has to be a teacher with that attitude...I see muskett is still talking sense as usual..hows it going sweetpants sxxxx?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 08:14 AM

"Why is it wrong for Israel's side to be given?"

It isn't,........until you refuse to recognise that there is another side!

WHICH YOU REGULARLY DO!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 08:19 AM

"Troubadour, I only call people liar when they lie."

So all Palestinians lie all the time?
All WW1 soldiers whose accounts don't fit your bias are lying?
Anyone who points out that persecution of minorities is not safely classified as religious, rather than just different, is lying?

Let's face it, anybody who disagrees with you on any subject is lying!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 08:26 AM

Tut tut, Conc. I thought you had more about you and could keep away when you said you would. Obviously yet another bout of 'fantasying'. Nice to see you trying out at least one more insult. Still not original and doesn't work but 2/10 for effort anyway.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 08:39 AM

Troubadour, there are well known instances of lying, like the faked massacre, and the dumping of bodies off the Marmara.

There are many people who put the Palestinian case here, and they do it very well.
Why do you object to just 3 of us putting Israel's case?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 09:21 AM

Hang on, just get Keith out of the way first..

Because you aren't interested in those who give the Palestinian view, you call them liars because they disagree with your warped dangerous view. If Israel has a point, and it certainly has the right to exist, the cause is drowned in your withering diatribe over other communities that have a right to exist. Perhaps persecution is the wrong word because neither side have let your Jesus in their lives.

Right, back now.

Hi delicious drawers! XxxxxX.

As you can see, I've brought another friend, Keith, along to play. You might be right about the teacher bit. I used to know a few just like him. Torygraph? Yes, he does quote from there from time to time. And The Daily M*il. Real teachers, you know, the good ones, tend to quote from The Guardian though.

In any event, he gives good entertainment value and is almost as far up his own arse as I am. Worryingly, he may be further.....

I see you and the associated gnome are still wary of each other. I do hope for the benefit of all the crèche that you learn to play together. Keith has told me of a good playground game he used to play, called British Bulldogs. I can't wait for us to try it out. You and I might get to wear nazi uniforms and whips, just like that nice Mr Mosely from the racing world.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 09:39 AM

I only call someone "liar" when I catch them lying.
Like yourself Musket, when you claimed you had something by the historian Sheffield that contradicted me.
A lie.
You found no historian that did, so you had to lie to prop up your pathetic made up fantasies.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 09:59 AM

Trust me, you don't feature in any of my fantasies...

There isn't enough space to show all the contradictions, especially as you are not quite as consistent as you like to think you are. Which is good. If you were solidly in love with your warped view of the world, most would have dismissed you a long time ago, but whilst ever it is difficult to read you, there may be hope that there is a decent bloke trying to surface. But he is kept down by an apologist for a time warp little Englander who can't see beyond pandering to the establishment.

Have you read the servitude essay by Isaac Uminmassa yet?

Some of can read you know.. Even those of us in the crèche either read or can get the gist through looking at the pictures.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 10:13 AM

Wary? Mmmmm. Yes, but only in the way a way a teacher is wary of a recalcitrant child. I can see the potential there but, unfortunately, the underpants keep getting soiled. I have tried both carrot and stick to no avail. I can only leave it to your mighty hands, oh Messiah M, and hope that it does not get too smelly...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 10:22 AM

Have you read Cliff Fall, by Eileen Dover?
I have a few more we used to think were funny at juniors.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 11:14 AM

Gosh sweetpants muskett!!! you are dead right.Kulturkeith@ Hateford is a real shocker.


Judging by his last post a fan of The Beano as well as t'telegraph and now definitely is a Daily Mail reader.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket remembering
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 11:16 AM

Yeah.

I'm a dozy twat by Keith A of Hertford.

Military revisionism by Max Hastings

What's my reward? By Sir Max Hastings

This seems a decent gravy train by That Sheffield Bloke

The Butcher of The Somme by hundreds and thousands of distraught mothers and widows.

Bingo based religion, you know it makes sense by The co Messiahs and Associated Gnome.

I can spot talent when I see it xxx by conc.

Love you too cuddlybuns xxx by Musket

You're all speaking in memes by a Jerk the Sea Cadet.

Fuck me, where did that dinosaur come from? By Starry pete.




You may wish to visit WH Smiths and buy some of them. I hear your library was broken into and both your books were stolen.

Which is a shame.

Cos one of them wasn't even coloured in yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 02:03 PM

I want to apologize to everyone on Mudcat for continuing this specious thread, the premise of which I don't agree.

In fact, it seems to me that militant religion has created an" atheist "movement.

There might have been a time when non-belief was just another way of looking at things
but since the actions of violent and vituperative religionists have come to the fore, a war has been created.

I deplore the sarcastic, smart-assed comments that have attended this
sham of a discussion. The only reason that this thread continues is that it provides a forum for shallow criticisms and unfunny remarks by those unwittingly or willfully ignorant.

A reasonable understanding of why people adopt or reject religion would be useful if
nothing else than to reveal how these differing points of view reflect changes in the brain or culture.

I can understand, having once been religious, myself, how others who espouse their
ideas with enthusiasm or evangelism are motivated to do so. I left religion, not with animosity or pain but a recognition that religion serves no constructive purpose for me.
I don't see it as a means to ease the problems we face in society today.

The thread's title here, and make no mistake about it, is an attack on non-belief.
The false equivalency of non-belief to religion muddies the waters of clear thinking.

There are those who are angry in the so-called "atheist" community such as Christopher
Hitchens, but he was a combative guy to begin with. Dawkins never criticizes individuals but focuses his attention on the institution of religion where it belongs. Sam Harris and
Daniel Dennet take a philosophical view to the issue but not ad-hominem or accusative to any person.

In summary, I apologize to all for having subjected you so this attack ad.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 02:44 PM

Musket started it.
" read the servitude essay by Isaac Uminmassa "
Bit racist actually.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 05:32 PM

That's how I feel about this unfunny nonsense as well Frank.

As I said already it is like a very bad script for "Monty Pythons Flying Circus"....the one which ended up in the bin.

I always supposed traditional musicians and music fans, were down to earth, sincere, seekers after truth?....This shower would give Alan Partridge a bad name.

It should have been a great thread, but almost every thread now is being sabotaged by these poseurs, who take so much time and effort to say nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Nov 13 - 05:44 PM

Musket didn't start it, Keith. Jack the Sailor started the first one, which should have died a death, then Stringsinger for some inexplicable reason started part 2, for which he has now apologised. I think you will find that all the arguments herein stem from those initial posts.

Ake. Anyone who thinks that a 'great thread' is one that starts on a completely specious premise simply to have a go at people that do not believe in God is seriously mistaken. As to 'almost every thread' being sabotaged, I think everyone knows that you are referring to just those where you post your dangerous dogma. A tiny fraction of what goes on here I am glad to say. If you feel that Mudcat has become unwelcoming may I suggest that you do the obvious?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 13 - 08:14 PM

It doesn't matter who started it instead of retaliating you should of told an adult before it got out of hand...(Ducks n deftly avoids flying slippers)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket again
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 02:21 AM

Stringsinger may do well to read his original post followed by my post directly below it.

I'm not sure the thread has developed into anything. It has kept the spirit I advised it would.

As religion per se is only part of it, the wandering into other similar topics of dogmatic bullshit is, if anything, helping answer stringsinger's question.

I love the bit where our resident historian fails to see social comment on historical shame and a) fails to see the link to the shame of the Somme and b) demonstrates his inability to consider by jumping at the face value of the word. Racist eh? A bit of a compliment given your politics.

An extraordinary thing yesterday. I was driving home with Simon Mayo's drive time on the radio (He is working his way through playing those up for BBC folk awards this weekbby the way, Martin Simpson last night) and his guest was Sir Max Hastings.   Now. .my car has DAB so there, on the dashboard next to the speedo were the words "Max Hastings, journalist and author. "

DAB gets some flack for sound quality, we can now add that it doesn't recognise "eminent historian. " Mr Mayo asked him if he was comfortable with being controversial, he doesn't think he is. .....

The more I read and hear, the more I see why Keith worships him.




Mwah! Cuddlebuns xx

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 02:52 AM

Keith does not.
He is just one of many historians I quoted in support of my views and refuting yours.

Your joke was unquestionably racist.
My politics are centre right, the majority position, and I used to vote Labour in Blair's days.

If I did not start the silly jokes, why am I the only one vilified?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 08:04 AM

Because you followed me onto a thread which I and others refuse to take seriously for reasons we have patiently explained and you try to be serious. You also gave tried to make me look a fool. I don't need you to do that, I'm married.

The silly jokes make up, openly and covertly, 90% of what I and others say on this thread. I came out with the silly book reference on a different thread because I noticed whenever I quote a source you go googling it. I couldn't resist seeing how daft you were. In fact Betty Swollox first came around when I quoted an imaginary book by her for Jerk the Sea Cadet to look up in a similar manner. From his comments, I take it he did.

Little things please (my) little mind.

Of course I'm not as advanced as you o wise one. I haven't learned how to read a book and defend it beyond reason on the basis the author's name sounds impressive and must have gravitas.....



Can someone tell him he doesn't start the silly jokes but that doesn't stop him being the comedian between the strippers?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 01:07 PM

When I started that thread it was to point out how closely those described by the prominent atheist Der Wall resembled the bad behavior of a few people on this forum.   

Dave if I ever have a go at you it will be for selective illiteracy and making up facts.

Obviously you went to the same school system as Musket. Discussion with you is pretty pointless. But pointing out your stupidity and hypocrisy to others who may read this is somewhat satisfying.

The constant easy proof that you are lying that anyone, even you if you made the radical move of reading ALL of words on the post, could find the evidence in my initial post on that thread is too good an opportunity to pass up.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket giggling
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 04:12 PM

Hello Sailor!

By 'eck its been a long time.   You will notice we haven't forgotten you. We sometimes mention you in despatches. Can I nominate you for sentence of the day? That last one was a classic.   I have absolutely no idea what the hell you are saying. Except you seem to be saying before it that Dave and I went to the same school.   Well, at least you acknowledge we are educated. I must have been in the A band and Dave the B band though as I rose to co Messiah and he only got as far as associated gnome.

Although if Co Messiah S doesn't get his football religion in line with the true faith I may have to ask Dave if he is interested in setting up a reformed whatever religion we are and elevate him to co Messiah. Not easy elevating a gnome but all religions are based on leaders who can do magic tricks.

Still reading?

Plenty more Betty Swollox where that came from.




Hey lover! You've been quiet lately and co Messiah S has nicked the after shave from the raffle prizes. I may have to drink lots of beer.

Again.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 04:17 PM

Dave if I ever have a go at you it will be for selective illiteracy and making up facts.


Please elucidate. But I must warn it can cause blindness.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 06:27 PM

DAVE...."If you feel that Mudcat has become unwelcoming may I suggest that you do the obvious?"

Hmmm....I don't see Mudcat as a comfort blanket Dave, I come here to exchange and explore ideas on various subjects; that is becoming increasingly difficult, not only for me, but for the majority of members who like reasonable and civil discussion on any subject which is not proscribed by Mudcat moderation.

Ian, and to a lesser extent yourself and Steve, seem to have taken it upon yourselves to try to wreck or shut down threads containing views with which you don't agree.
The MO appears to be unfunny "in jokes" and abusive ridicule of other members...witness abusive posts and ridicule to Michael, Keith, Jack, Pete, Frank, even Joe (God bless him).

I think you will probably be successful in achieving your objective, unless the mods make a stand and curtail your activities...they may be entertained to an extent by the barrage of abuse against myself, but when bullies are allowed to "get away with it", they get drunk with power and the bad behaviour increases.
Soon Mudcat will cease to exist as a serious discussion forum and everything in the garden will be rosy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 09:45 PM

Your disingenuous appeal to the mods will, hopefully, fall on deaf ears, as ever. You see, you appeal dishonestly for reasonable discussion, yet you are homophobic, a liar about your alleged socialism (you're nothing of the kind), a liar about our wanting to shut down threads (the last thing I would ever angle for, especially in threads in which you dig ever deeper holes for yourself and never seem to know when to stop digging), and, worst of all, you claim abuse against yourself when you yourself are incredibly abusive to a significant sector of the population. In terms of dealing with gay people, you would conceivably have been an excellent henchman in the T***d R***h. You need to reflect on the fact that a good number of "socialists" in working-class areas were rather easily persuaded (by the argument that resorted to the evil of the alien "other") to vote BNP. The broken circle of political allegiance has a very small gap between working-class socialism and fascism (the East-enders in 1936 saw it, but you haven't learned anything from history, have you?), and you seem to not to have noticed how easy it is to complete that circle. You are a sad case. Radical all right, but socialist? Do me a bloody favour, will you?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 03:25 AM

I am more than happy for people to post views that are not mine. I am not happy anyone with inciting hatred against minority groups for any reason. Other people, including the moderators, can judge for themselves.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket again
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 04:28 AM

Interesting. The person I have most pm and email discussions with, (mainly email because I rarely log in) is someone who will always disagree with me on the issues where we find ourselves sharing threads yet I doubt we have ever had a bad word to say of each other. I hope we never shall.

In the meantime, there are those who either start or respond to threads who make a point of either posting odious views and standing by them (in Akenhateon's case borne of ignorance rather than conviction, you can't educate pork) or post in a provocative manner but always say they are articulating external sources when challenged but are happy to be associated with less than savoury arguments if nobody challenges them. (Keith with his cut and paste jobs, Jack with his hero de Waal. )

I reckon over 90% of my time on mudcat.org is on musical threads. There, the only person I get into slanging matches with has been, funnily enough, posting similar arguments to me in two of Keith's strolls into idealistic fantasy in the BS section.

You know, the minute I worked out many years ago that my middle of the road views couldn't be reflected as socialist, no matter how much I thought I was one, there had to be a reason. That has come to me now.

If Akenhateon and his brutish brand of neo fascist utterings is in his mind socialism, thank Clapton I'm a dirty rotten stinking capitalist. ....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 04:45 AM

I will believe the three of you, when I see you support the Pope in his condemnation of the "tyrannical Capitalist system", which is the real obstruction to "equality"

The marriage rights of homosexuals come way down the scale when contrasted with the blighted generations deprived of purpose when Capitalism determines that they are no longer viable.

At least Ian admits to his complicity!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 04:55 AM

Keith with his cut and paste jobs,

That would be me backing my views with hard evidence.

It must be much easier just making pronouncements conjured out of the air, and making up false "facts" to prop them up.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 05:01 AM

I am really not bothered if anyone that I neither know nor care about believes me. The Pope can manage quite well on his own with or without my support. I have made my views on 'tyrannical capitalism' well know in many threads here but to save anyone looking them up I believe that the seeking of profit and power at any cost is wrong and is the cause of most conflicts.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 05:39 AM

Simon Mayo's radio show with Max Hastings referred to by Musket yesterday.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01mdty1

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 06:31 AM

I heard it the first time.

Tyrannical capitalism is a bit like tyrannical socialism. Tyrannical I guess.

Profit at any cost marks tyrannical capitalism, but commerce to prop up the infrastructure that allows a social programme is something I have always bought into. So have all the mainstream political parties so there is a wealth of links available should Keith need such things when he can't debate at face value.



Anyone any idea what "Ian" is "complicit" in or about?

I don't support this Pope incidentally. Misogyny is a value of his he makes clear he isn't going to abandon.

Something about rights of homosexuals coming below something or other. Strange? Nothing comes above peoples' rights in any system, does it? Apart from in fascism of course. Silly me.

Back in your hole worm. Hopefully that mole plaguing my far lawn and orchard might find you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 06:47 AM

Be accurate Ian....   "homosexual marriage rights"

You just cant help distortion, you do it with Keith all the time.
Fortunately he can see exactly what you are.....without "worms" the earth would be barren why insinuate they are of no value.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 08:25 AM

Sorry, I wasn't thinking.

"Marriage rights of perverts who who should be rounded up, assaulted and put on a register."

I'd hate to think I didn't capture what you mean. Your views are odious enough without misconstruing them.

Worms are of value. My composters are full of them, looking after the food for next year's crop. If you are to be of use to society, I was suggesting one you may be good at. Being a member of the human race is something you seem to struggle with. You might help me by calling that mole a traveller and shaming him into moving on.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 09:43 AM

I like that whack-a-mole game in the seaside arcades. Is that very speciesist of me?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 09:48 AM

That sounds like cruelty to avocados. I, as a Messiah, will simply not have it!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket Mexicana.
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 10:48 AM

You've been living down South too long. It doesn't even taste like mushy peas....

On a serious note, that bloody mole has to go. I have put a mole dildo in the ground, buried a sprung trap and tried poisoning the little shit. I haven't tried smoking him out yet but this Sunday, smells and bells it is.

Oh, whilst you are on, co Messiah. How's the scripture coming on?   Are we allowing women to be bingo callers from the outset or after a few dozen synods to allow our misogyny to run riot? Are gay people allowed to buy bingo tickets or must they just watch? There is a compromise we can borrow from the Church of England where they can buy tickets, use a fat felt tip to mark their card but cannot claim prizes.

Really difficult this religion lark. You have to get the superior to others bit just right so you can be the equivalent of an evangelical Anglican or staunch Catholic, rather than a sad old twat.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 11:01 AM

If it's any consolation, I'm having exactly the same issue with my own furry-velvet gentleman. As for our attitude to gayosity et al., I'm working on what I think of lesbians at this very moment. It's looking good. Swollox is quite aggressive, as we know, so I'm thinking of sending 'er up the palace to do some bishop-bashing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket reminiscing
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 11:21 AM

Ah but... The last time I was called a misogynist was when my voice carried and my then secretary, used to hearing me being loud and Anglo Saxon, heard me go too far in her eyes so told me off.

I deserved it, but still think it was funny, especially as it was her boyfriend (who coincidentally was a member of the same rugby club) who I first heard say it. I used to let sarcasm, the most satisfying form of wit, go as far as saying "well slap my thighs!" and doing so. Her boyfriend taught me "Well smother me in chocolate and throw me to the lesbians!"

Not advisable by the way as I was telling a sales rep he was one complaint away from a P45 at the time and we both burst out laughing, which kind of spoilt and nullified the disciplinary meeting we were having.

I think I know why Betty is so aggressive towards you now. I forgot to tell you that she prefers Wilton to Stilton.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 11:33 AM

I know which one is Graham Chapman, but which one is John Cleese?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 06:22 AM

"That would be me backing my views with hard evidence."

Naah! That would be the usual series of selective Keithbites, slanting the story in your desired direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 07:59 AM

seems to be to much backbiting and sexism on this thread of late..let people be what they choose to be I say...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 12:03 PM

"I know which one is Graham Chapman.."

Perhaps Don Firth is onto something when he questioned your own sexuality? Well tuned gaydar you have there. Just be careful, hypocritical gay people who would persecute others whilst keeping quiet about what gets them through the night tend to find Peter Tatchell and a news crew camped outside their door.

Or at least, those worth bothering with do.

Hey luvver!   Good advice. Snag is, someone from the sink estate across town has put their child in our crèche and he is telling the other children that they should round up the sensitive children and assault them, then put them on a register. We can't let people be what they choose to be whilst his sort are allowed in the crèche I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 05:22 AM

Who said anything about rounding up anybody?
Distortion again Ian? ....you are a poor excuse for an adult.
I know you were unaware of what MSM is an abbreviation for, so I will remind you Men who have Sex with Men.

Nothing to do with children in crèches.

A voluntary register of MSM to be tested and contact traced tri annually until infection rates fall to something approaching acceptable levels....

Most males feel a sense of natural repugnance towards any sort of sexual activity with persons of their own gender, I am no different to the majority in that respect.
You are simply joining Don in erecting a "straw man" in place of debate on the issue.

Your MO has been sussed .....better get some robes "Messiah"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket again
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 05:39 AM

You're getting mixed up again.

Most PEOPLE feel a sense of repugnance at the thought of having sex with you.

Bringing children into the subject just goes to show what a sick bastard you are. Nobody else here has.

Nice to see you trying to trying to get into the Messiah game. Snag is, I'm not sure I would welcome your sort into our crèche.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket again
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 06:52 AM

Oh. Sorry. Forgot.

Rounding up.

Compulsory requirement to report for Medical testing and the results putting on a register.

Take your choice. They mean the same thing.

Sick bastard.





In the meantime in England we do actually have a potential issue with HIV. The funding for sexual health is being split and councils will be controlling the public health elements. We already have tenders being offered for clinics where the tariff (money you receive per patient) is being cut to preclude automatic offering to check partners. It would have to be a new self referral.

With just over 100, 000 people in England living with HIV, many of them young people who wish to remain sexually active, this is a concern.

The bloke behind the Musket nonsense said in his submission to the specialised commissioning unit last week, "If we stopped family history clinics for people diagnosed or at risk of genetic cancers, there would be a justifiable outcry. Just because the risk group here are needle sharers, prostitutes and people who have anal sex, doesn't make them less worthy of a service that is designed to halt transferable disease in its track."

There you go. Confronting the odious side of human nature and public information in one post. Join the crèche. You know it makes sense. (Although I propose we discriminate against those who openly and unashamedly promote discrimination. )

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 06:56 AM

Most males feel a sense of natural repugnance towards any sort of sexual activity with persons of their own gender

Speak for yourself. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool heterosexual sort of chappie meself and always have been, but the contemplation of anyone having happily-consensual sex with anyone they choose to fills me with happiness, not repugnance.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 09:25 AM

Ditto here. Doesn't worry me one way or another what consenting adults get up to as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. So, up to now, 3 out of 4 males say they are not bothered. I suspect two Dons on here will be the same along with any other reasonably minded person. So, where does this 'majority' come in?

On the other subject, how on earth can compulsory testing cut down the infection rates? All it will do is confirm what they are!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 10:39 AM

Years ago the wife had to administer a suppository to me as i couldn't hack it.She eventually give it a good shove with her thumb and i ended up cracking my head off the wall.So respect and hats off to them.Anyway maybe ake meant the thought of his waste pipe.I agree though what other people get up to in their bedroom should have no purchase on you,if what they are doing is consensual.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 10:39 AM

On the Armistice debate thread, I have been in a minority of just one.
I lose count of how many ridicule and revile my opinion, and resort to lies and abuse to intimidate me.

But, I was right and they were all wrong.
I was only alone because no historians were posting, but I could post all their findings that showed the Mudcat majority were wrong.

I have no issues at all over sexuality, but prefer not to think about the ins and outs of sex between males.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 11:09 AM

I'll let you into a secret then Keith.

According to myriad surveys, including one by Stonewall that is repeated annually to subscribers of their newsletters, circulation over 200, 000, over 30% of gay men share your preferring not to think about penetrative sex between men. I for one will happily go on record as sharing a personal distaste. I also share with many a distaste of anal sex with women. But if that floats someone's boat, good for them.

Another statistic from The Academy of Royal Colleges regarding audit data from A&E and colo rectal surgery. Instances of injury or infection from anal sex? Over 78% women.   Which tends to tie in with other statistics regarding the gender ratio of those receiving anal sex.

Mind you, statistics can be useful in other ways. You versus everybody else on the subject of wasted needless death in the trenches.

Doesn't it even begin to shake your amazing sense of self belief?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 11:17 AM

No-one could be more opposed to "wasted needless death" than me, but I am grateful to those who fought against brutal tyranny in WW1 and 2.
I do not regard Remembrance as an "obscenity, as stated by you.
I would never be so arrogantly stupid as to say, "historians should know better"!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 11:43 AM

I was not just referring to anal sex Ian, There is a natural repugnance to any sort of male/ male sexual contact, amongst the vast majority of males.

That is not an opinion, you don't need a spokesperson to confirm it,

There have been numerous studies which have shown that to be undisputable fact.

Would you care to deny that it is indeed a fact?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 11:56 AM

There have been numerous studies which have shown that to be undisputable fact.


Such as?

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 11:59 AM

There is a natural repugnance to any sort of male/ male sexual contact, amongst the vast majority of males.

That is not an opinion, you don't need a spokesperson to confirm it,

There have been numerous studies which have shown that to be undisputable fact.

Classically pure weasel words. Garn, look up "weasel words" on wiki. After that, give us your data.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 12:03 PM

"According to myriad surveys, including one by Stonewall that is repeated annually to subscribers of their newsletters, circulation over 200, 000, over 30% of gay men share your preferring not to think about penetrative sex between men."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 12:22 PM

Ah! So it isn't just worrying about infection from "the homosexual act" after all.

It never was, and this is not the first time your disgusting bigotry has surfaced from your false concern. You know, someone who says they should be executed has more going for them than you. You waffle on about concern for them rather than being concerned by them.

There are no such studies. There might have been once, but the next question was usually "do you think niggers should go home?"

If you don't want to snog a bloke then don't. Easy. If you do, get on with it. Easy. It's got fuck all to do with me. Fuck all to do with god botherers and fuck all to do with Nasty little bigots.

I notice one christian church shares your claim on another thread about gay marriage being against biblical teaching. (A bit rich from someone who once learned to spell atheist.). The Westboro Church in USA have excelled themselves by saying the awful helicopter crash in Glasgow was due to God being angry at Scotland for legalising gay marriage.

That's what happens when you don't challenge bigotry. Slime like that gets the oxygen of publicity.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 12:51 PM

"According to myriad surveys, including one by Stonewall that is repeated annually to subscribers of their newsletters, circulation over 200, 000, over 30% of gay men share your preferring not to think about penetrative sex between men."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 01:58 PM

one christian church shares your claim on another thread about gay marriage being against biblical teaching

ONE? Oh, no, Musket, there's a whole pantheon of "Christian"[sic] churches that so claim. They're two a penny in the southern US for one.

According to myriad surveys...

OK, Keith: identify said surveys. Or is this just more of your usual BS?
Andis that Stonewall Jackson?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 02:39 PM

I do not know Greg.
I was quoting Musket.
Direct your questions to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 03:49 PM

He was quoting me Greg. He seems to have his record stuck.

Stonewall is an organisation set up to confront and lobby against gay bigotry. They provide an advisor to the equalities minister and poll gay people for views on how to ensure nobody gets special treatment, especially not gay people. They are an organisation that provides advice to UK bodies on ensuring equality of access. Recently they provided legal support for those suing bigots such as the bed and breakfast owners who provided a business but turned away a couple, embarrassingly, because a normal couple, who happened to both be male, weren't willing to promise not to make love.

The surveys they carry out to gain views to articulate are readily available via their website. It makes no difference whatsoever, but it would appear, judging by extrapolating surveys, that not every gay man is at risk of sexually transmitted issues, as only about 70% are sexually active. Most of them are monogamous and gave attended GU clinics to be screened.

In a recent BBC documentary, Stephen Fry, a man who the media use as a gay "voice" stated that he had never had penetrative sex with a man.

It is pertinent because Akenhateon wishes to round up gay men and force them to be tested, yet not have him forced to attest that he doesn't have anal sex with a prostitute of either gender. Why ever not?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 04:37 PM

Well, it's about tackling the epidemic Ian....remember? The 2/3% of the population who account for almost 70% of all new cases of HIV and Syphilis in the UK and US.
But you don't care about such matters, do you?

In the UK and US HIV and Syphilis are very rare infections amongst heterosexuals. Rates are also low amongst IDUs and even sex workers.
As a heterosexual with a normal sex life, I have very little chance of contracting either disease.....according to HPA/CDC figures.

However had I been a male homosexual with the average number of sexual partners(for male homosexuals), I should be in a very perilous position indeed.....according to HPA figures.

On repugnance of heteros to homosexual activity, there have been many tests and studies done by the agencies on sexual response, using photographs and pornographic images to test how men respond sexually.
All show that homo-erotica is a distinct turn off for the vast majority of men.

If you dispute the results of these studies, I'm sure I can find them easily.

Fry is a bumbling agenda driven diva, with a serious psychological flaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 05:17 PM

Since when did start calling yourself Fry?

By the way,the rest of what put isn't true. You get a figure from one statistic and put it to another.

I don't know where they get people to watch gay porn whilst researchers look to see if they get a pan handle, but it begins to show where he gets his fantasies from.

I don't know who "the agencies" are but flogging is too good for them. Not that they exist outside of his imagination.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 05:58 PM

On repugnance of heteros to homosexual activity, there have been many tests and studies done by the agencies on sexual response, using photographs and pornographic images to test how men respond sexually.
All show that homo-erotica is a distinct turn off for the vast majority of men.

If you dispute the results of these studies, I'm sure I can find them easily.

I've already asked you but you continue to bullshit. Actually, the mind boggles. I mean, what question might these "researchers" have asked in these "studies" (as if I give a flying fart)? "Hello, sir, may I just ask you what you think about a bloke sticking his willy up another bloke's bum"? I seriously need to know how this survey was carried out, what questions were asked and of how many blokes, and from what backgrounds they were selected. And, not least, by whom. Do apprise us, achy Tony. This is my second request. Do piss, or simply get off the pot. I'm seriously tempted to say "homo-erotica my arse" but I wouldn't want you getting all excited. I do have a slight rash, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 07:20 PM

"I do not know Greg.
I was quoting Musket.
Direct your questions to him."

1. Spout unsubstantiated crap.
2. If challenged deny all knowledge, blame source (which you chose to espouse in the first place)

Another Keithbite!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 02:05 AM

You are very rude to accuse Musket of "Spout(ing) unsubstantiated crap."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 03:38 AM

There is a natural repugnance to any sort of male/ male sexual contact, amongst the vast majority of males.


homo-erotica is a distinct turn off for the vast majority of men.


Which is it, Ake? Natural repugnance or a distinct turn off? I find thinking about my great aunt a distinct turn off but I don't think she is repugnant. Homo-erotica would do nothing for me either but again, I don't find it repugnant. HUGE difference between repugnance and not being sexually aroused. Give us details of one of these 'many studies' which shows that the 'vast majority' of men find it repugnant. Would this same 'vast majority' find sexual activity between two women repugnant as well BTW?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket giggling
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 03:52 AM

Of course Keith, it may well be unsubstantiated crap. Unlike you, I don't take external sources as gospel. I also pointed out the percentages in their reports are extrapolated for the population from a small sample.

Just like any other statistics.

But in terms of the worm's assertion that being gay is a health risk, the perspective needs clarifying.

No need to clarify though as he has now started frothing at the mouth and shouting about forcing men to watch gay porn to see if they get a stiffy.

His fantasies have moved beyond false concern, so best not to dwell on supporting any of his nonsense eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 04:03 AM

Of course Keith, it may well be unsubstantiated crap. Unlike you, I don't take external sources as gospel.

Neither do I.
I just regard them as evidence.

Where we differ is that I would not post anything that " may well be unsubstantiated crap."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket again
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 06:55 AM

Wow. I spent a few years up till earlier this year as a regulator which included investigations under PACE. Someone even gave me a qualification in investigation, not that I have space on the wall for it. .....

If you want to start a thread on what constitutes evidence, I have spent many an hour convincing courts. I'm getting rusty though. The last time I presented any evidence to anything formal was to the RSPCS regarding cruelty at the local dog track. When you walk a greyhound, some idiots think you are part of the murky racing world and invite you to see their kennels.

But. Ye, I still reckon I know what evidence is. I even wrote a checklist on what is and what isn't for Greyhound Action after my recent experiences.

Want to discuss evidence? I promise to draw on legal and professional rather than recent personal interpretations. ....

Let's go!



Just don't find a definition on the Daily M*il website and keep throwing it in my face eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 10:01 AM

More posturing from our resident buffoon.

Why your obsession with The Daily Mail?
I did once quote an eminent war historian who had published something there.
So what?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 10:16 AM

I like that. You keep repeating the diatribe that if Hastings says so it must be and then keep referring to two newspapers, that being one of them.

What do you think I am going to use, The Ringing World? Train Spotters Guide to Girlfriends?

Go on. Based on your recent posts, I'd be genuinely interested in your take on what constitutes evidence. My take on it is published and available as per above. I can't wriggle and you can even read it before replying. How easy is that? Your first ever opportunity to make me look a prat.

You know it makes sense. ....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 10:23 AM

You keep repeating the diatribe that if Hastings says so it must be

Lie. Hastings is just one of numerous historians I cited.

and then keep referring to two newspapers, that being one of them.

Lie.
I once quoted a historian who wrote there once, once from the Guardian and once from the Telegraph.
I produced numerous quotes and extracts from the BBC History site and elsewhere.

A posturing, lying buffoon.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 10:29 AM

Hastings is just one of numerous historians I cited.

Ah. For you, a scant half-dozen is "numerous". Explains a great deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 12:38 PM

Gnome
Fairy
Gnome
Elf
Gnome
Leprechaun
Gnome
Hobbit
Gnome
Dwarf
Gnome
Orc
Gnome
Goblin
Gnome
Wizard

See what I just did? I mentioned Gnome a lot. But if anyone accuses me of doing so, I just have to say I mentioned numerous mythical beings and so anyone who says I said Gnome a lot must be lying.

Sorry, Keith, your arguments are sometimes good but in this case I think it is badly flawed.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 01:13 PM

Dave, sometimes one has to repeat things several times before some people allow themselves to absorb the meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 01:28 PM

Example...Ian's continual misquoting of my posts.
I have absolutely no desire to force heterosexual men to watch homosexual pornography.
The tests were undertaken by scientists, quite without my knowledge or permission.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket noting
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 01:34 PM

Or knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 02:53 PM

Oh dear..the usual no nothing stumble-bums regurgitating the usual half digested crap.Now they have added misogyny and gnome hating to their so called poo filled thoughts...if folk want to go for the easy pink or the hard brown, or to munch the wilton, that is completely their choice

Herr kieth@hatefilled dot com.. the only posturing buffoon talking crap is you..and please leave me sweet baby muskett out of the mix, or I may have to introduce the crayon up the round brown syndrome..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 03:00 PM

Oh dear..the usual no nothing stumble-bums regurgitating the usual half digested crap.Now they have added misogyny and gnome hating to their so called poo filled thoughts...if folk want to go for the easy pink or the hard brown, or to munch the wilton, that is completely their choice

Permission to growl at the badger, please sir?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 03:14 PM

Watch it shaw you are nearly developing a sense of humour, I say nearly because you think by sidling up to me with your sexist crap I will be nice to you..NO WAY fraud...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 03:16 PM

Luv you too honeybuns! XxX

I gave the worm a double lack of knowledge and submitted it by accident, I meant to add "anybody's knowledge."

There are a few scientists on this thread, with or without crayon syndrome, and Iused to research a bit myself when gagging for a doctorate. Let's take a straw poll..

Can any of the scientists here remember asking men to watch gay porn and seeing if they get a pan handle? I can't recall doing it to be fair, but I did once buy a dildo as part of an experiment, (my thesis was on mechanical vibration and the industrial pokers were a bit too fierce for a bench top wave pool....)

Sorry worm. None of the scientists recall doing that experiment. You must be dreaming, or been watching Clockwork Orange. Or peddling filth, I forget.

And now... By special request, I shall sing a Tom Paxton song just for my mate Keith.

Ahem...


What did you learn in school today, sweet little Keith of mine?
What did you learn in school today, sweet little Keith of mine.

(I bet you thought I was going to sing

I read it in the daily news!

But I didn't."



Here Steve, don't try growling at the badger whilst the worm's experiment is in full swing. Badgers have big noses but not that big....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 03:38 PM

Dave, Musket suggested I relied on one historian, Max Hastings.

The truth is that I have backed my statements with quotes from Richard Holmes, Peter Hart, David Stephenson, Fritz Fisher, Dan Todman, Gary Sheffield off the top of my head.
There are others on the BBC History site.

I formed my opinions by reading history, so it is easy for me to produce historical evidence.

Musket believes a version of History based on his politics, not any historian's findings, and is reduced to stating "historians should know better" because none support his version of History.

I take it you have not been following the Armistice thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 03:57 PM

Watch it shaw you are nearly developing a sense of humour, I say nearly because you think by sidling up to me with your sexist crap I will be nice to you..NO WAY fraud...

Yessir, yessir...but may I drink from the furry cup? Pretty please???

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 03:58 PM

Ian, scientists conduct experiments or studies on many different subjects.....you really do need to get out more.

Your inane and distorted posts are getting too boring to read.
Who on earth led you to believe that you have any wit or humour about you?
Irony requires a degree of subtlety.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 05:55 PM

Ian, scientists conduct experiments or studies on many different subjects.....you really do need to get out more.

Your inane and distorted posts are getting too boring to read.
Who on earth led you to believe that you have any wit or humour about you?
Irony requires a degree of subtlety.

Gosh, an angry-man post that says precisely nothing. I love it! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket again
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 01:14 AM

Me? I can't wait to be told all the other interesting things these scientists get up to. Apparently they don't just measure stiffys! Or should that be stiffies? We'll have to ask dictionary corner.   Oy Keith!

Phew. Well. At least the worm isn't denying the accuracy of either mine or other people's contributions on his one trick pony subject.

Except the hilarious claims about weird experiments leading to even weirder conclusions. Oh, and that gay people are far too promiscuous to ever want marriage. Hang on, add the distortions over health and a sprinkle of liberal agenda. ...

Funny how he reckons I have no wit yet he comes out with claims that make you laugh but are borne of hatred so perhaps aren't funny after all.

As I said before, one day bigotry will not be respectable. There are far too many lavender marriages to please simple minded parents as it is. The BBC presenter Clare Balding said on her Desert Island Disks that when her sexuality became known, her own grandmother called her a disgusting tart. A Scottish bloke I used to work with in London wanted to really be working back home but was actually scared of his father finding out that he loved another man. Add as many sad accounts as you wish at this point.

Crazy world.

Then you see why.

Perhaps you aren't funny at all you disgusting little man.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 05:03 AM

Just read the one below your own Steve, THAT should have you in stitches!! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 05:41 AM

Those scientists should know better I suppose Musket.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll replacing the troll who was really
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 06:48 AM

Tee Hee.. you really have to laugh at the shyster shaw..trying to get in with the big boys by trying to be pathetically funny with his shit eating sexist jokes and sayings..I verily believe now he must have been the biggest sneak and toady at school.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 11:50 AM

Teehee my arse. How to tell when a (wo)man feels threatened! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 11:52 AM

Yeah Keith. They even spell it the same as scientist. No wonder the worm gets confused when watching his DVDs.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 02:34 PM

You know, the more you read shaws pathetic attempts at intellectual funniness, the more you have to feel sad for the rest of humanity when they realize that this pallooka has the vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 02:37 PM

I always vote left-wing. That OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 02:53 PM

I vote with my right arm, although my left arm holds the ballot sheet.

You have wings mate? Perhaps you should be the only messiah, I have nothing like that to be co with.

Except an advanced sense when it comes to football of course. Oh, and playing guitar, banjo and fiddle I suppose I no longer need toys I stick in my mouth..

Hey! This shouting abuse at decent people who don't deserve it isn't much fun at all. The worm must get around to explaining why it's fun cos be buggered if I can see the fun. My co Messiah is a decent bloke and all that.

Although my new lover no longer flirts with him. Can't work out whether that's good or bad?

The first part would get bad if Mrs Musket got a whiff of my excitement.

And what's more, I don't have to watch any of the worm's videos to prove it!

Perhaps Keith, who loves trying, unsuccessfully to be fair, to prove the worm's claims can find evidence of scientists showing gay porn and measuring erections, let alone concluding that decent people are repulsed by it.

Well Keith? Another opportunity to make me look a cunt and then complain when you fail?

(Just thinking aloud. Many people are repulsed by any porn, so perhaps sex is wrong after all? Oh Cock.....)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 03:15 PM

"I always vote left wing"

Now that is one of the most stupid remarks I have heard shaw, even for you.

Pray tell me in words that everyone can understand, exactly what party in this dirty capitalist non opposition state is anywhere faintly resembling "left wing"...If you can do that with a credible explanation I will.....ah!! leave that to your very dubious imagination..

Me sweet cheeks muskett is staring to get a little risquexxxxxxx

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 04:25 PM

I always vote for the lefties in the NUT elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket giggling
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 01:06 AM

I never stare. Its rude xx

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 07:18 AM

That wasn't the question shaw you buffoon..NUT? left wingers? where? what? how?

If you are as confused as all that shaw it is time you give up...shaw the Marxist..pass me a sleeve I need to laugh up it!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 07:49 AM

Keep up, Conc. Left testicles have been mentioned numerous times. Maybe not as often as crayons but often non the less.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 12:30 PM

I dress to the left. That OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 02:59 PM

Dress to the left of what?, you centrist small minded fence sitting pallooka ?

Gnome, if that is the best you can do it is time for you to join the greased up, inflatable,fish smelling ,ginger cake inhabited bag lady class...along with the rest of them silly people>>

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 03:50 PM

Oh fer crying out loud confused he has only one testicle,you insensitive hoor...(that is it innit) ;-)Ok i'll tell him it's a masonic thing.Rumour has it he has had the lop too,and it's bent i hear.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll who is not a troll
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 04:01 PM

Oh gust!!!! you are sweetxxxx

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 04:19 PM

Thought you had a date with Musket on the far lawn.

Subject: BS: Militant atheism has religious aspects?
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 04:26 PM

Can we at least find common ground in this one simple point?

Please be sure to look up "Militant atheism" before you try to dismiss it as having no existence.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has religious aspects?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 04:42 PM

By common ground you mean you want people to agree with you, JTS?

There is no credo or doctrine to Atheism other than the simple promotion of good common-sense denied to us in the hearts of the religious on pain of eternal damnation in the furnaces of The Dark Fellow and his impish hoards.

That's about the sum total of Christianity. It's vile, exploitative and the sooner it dies out the better.

If it is militant to oppose such a rancid set of lies, then so be it. But it is no way shape or RELIGIOUS to do so. It is the very opposite of religion.

It says, stuff religion up your sanctimonious arse and get a life. Come join us in the real world and celebrate your uniqueness.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has religious aspects?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 04:58 PM

Hey Wacko! Good to see ya!

Hey, Joe, he's started yet another. Any chance of having him vivisected?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has religious aspects?
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 05:00 PM

Usual half formed codollogy crap fostered by half formed codollogy brains...

But,,LO!!! just wait and see the ginger cake eating centrist balloons and frauds like shaw, wizzjet,gnomet and the rest of the left of center pricks come along with their pseudo intellectual crap and ruin a perfectly sensible nonsense thread..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 05:03 PM

Dress to the left of what?

To the left yer frontal pant zip, you ignorant unworldly wazzock! Anyway, never mind about that. I bat left-handed. OK?

(I'm ambidextrous with a mouse but I think my trick-cyclist is on the case...)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has religious aspects?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 05:05 PM

Oi, bonkers conkers, Wacko's back! What's with the curmudgeonliness? You should be celebrating! The rest of us are!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has religious aspects?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 05:07 PM

I am not a particularly religious person myself, but Jack B., you are abysmally ignorant of what Christianity is all about if you think that's all there is to it.

And YES, there IS a strong element of religious belief in atheism. You apparently have faith that there is no God or some manner of Supreme Being, or all-pervading Consciousness. When, in actuality, there is no real way of knowing for certain, one way or the other.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has religious aspects?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 05:13 PM

Elves, please merge this thread with the other one. Nothing new whatsoever.

A thread to discuss, say, the BHA may have more chance of some kind of consensus. If we proceed towards the question "what exactly do religious people seek in their religions, and is that necessarily in conflict with science and freedom of thought?", I would like to participate. The chances at the moment are close to zero; the protagonists are not interested at all. Not in discussing religion, not in discussing sciences, hardly in discussing ethics. Some want to win and to convince readers of their agenda, others just practice public "onanism" (Musket's self-accusation).

Merge them, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has religious aspects?
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 05:14 PM

Please be sure to look up "Militant atheism" before you try to dismiss it as having no existence.



Be sure to look up atheist militarism, too. Then look up your own arsehole.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has religious aspects?
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 05:15 PM

You see !!!!, how long did that take?..In shaw comes, dribbling out the corner of his mouth, thumb and crayons plugged firmly up the round brown, mouthing crap ..

Hang on a bit!!! I have just realised the thread has been started by Seaman Staynes in disguise.. Yo! Yo! Yo! Barnacle balls ..how are they hanging?

It is no good trying to hide with the very small initials jts we are on to yer game..you owld nautical fraud!!!

Common ground?.. you bettyer!! the same pseudo crap you have always been involved in you salt stained charleton!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has religious aspects?
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 05:38 PM

Won't be long before all that are left on this forum are piss takers and trolls.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has religious aspects?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 05:39 PM

Do the words 'Fuck Off' and 'Knobhead' have the same meaning in American English?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has religious aspects?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 05:39 PM

Send out an emergency call for Billy Goat Gruff!

This, and other threads, are infested with brainless trolls!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 05:42 PM

Gnome, if that is the best you can do

What a wanker...

Dtg

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 06:44 PM

And YES, there IS a strong element of religious belief in atheism. You apparently have faith that there is no God or some manner of Supreme Being, or all-pervading Consciousness. When, in actuality, there is no real way of knowing for certain, one way or the other.

Don, Don, DON! No self-respecting atheist will tell you there is any real knowing for certain. We're all deliriously happy with that. But there is not only no strong element of religious belief, there is no element of "belief" whatsoever. In common with most atheists I've ever discussed this with (a few), we predicate our attitude to the existence or not of God on evidence, pure and simple. Faith simply don't come into it, much as opponents of atheism would like to think so. I'm an atheist, I suppose, but I couldn't be more open-minded about God's existence if I tried. I just want some evidence (I have quite a high bar for qualifying evidence, I admit). If I get evidence I'm happy. If I don't get evidence, I shrug. To date, I've discerned no evidence. I don't mind discussing what I'll take as evidence, but that's for another time, maybe. "Faith" means accepting stuff told to me without evidence. That doesn't mean for one minute that what I'm being told isn't true, but, if it is true, there will be evidence, and I want that evidence.

Faith ugly. Evidence beautiful!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 07:01 PM

By the way, Co-M, which GIT was it who was supposed to be mass-producing those medallions of Seaman Staynes walking the plank? I've just had a bill for four grand from some bloke who reckoned he'd reclaimed the metal for them from melted-down Worthington E cans and spent £2500 on Lapis Lazuli paint for Sailor Boy's hat brim. I've seen one example so far and the bloody pink paint was already peeling off Sailor's pants' front. Have we got a contingency fund (hopefully not consumed by Betty Swollox's gin habit) or does this mean bloody bingo again? Dave, have you kept your numbered balls?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 07:02 PM

You are all obviously passionate about the subject but you need another angle.What is it that makes this subject so divisive could be one,other than using extremes.
Also if a scientist took a sample from each tradition and mapped just the physical symptoms it is sickenly obvious they are all realising the same thing.The scientists here throw the baby out imo.I totally understand hearing it cold like this sounds too simple.But that's because it is and a huge portion of society have realised this,the horse has bolted.All the thousands who have exp this have seen the likes of Brand and so forth speak openly about it and it has opened the floodgates.On that note i caught a clip of Bono alluding to his stirring,that was the word he used.Now this frustrates me because if everyone just came out with it it would be less of a big deal,because it isn't.Plus what flaming use is it if we all can't have it.
    Ideally i would love us as a race to take the clutter away from it and see the universal thing that it is.Then religions would dissolve.For the fearful Christian or Muslim this doesn't denigrate their religions it confirms them imo.
Yes same ole but surely you can see this now in 2013, that all religions are trying to deliver a higher state of consciousness.Name me one that isn't.Also these holy mens/gurus brains can be tested in the lab to show they operate differently,the data is out there for the scientifically minded.
Alot of very savvy people are suggesting we should do away with money and the way we do business and instead view your lifeforce as currency,i personally think that would be a huge step forward.
I'm with ake and think it's time we took stock of what we really need(Pope thread)It's an age of realisation we need,to take stock and see what history is,never ending cycles of same ol shighte an madness,lets stop it.We have tried everything all systems fail yet any could work if we fixed what needs fixing most urgent,our psyche/sub conscious.
    Hawkins was mentioned in the other thread,did you know he used to time holding his breath in the bath.Testing his lung capacity if i remember right, it is like meditation ..which helped deliver his "eureka moments" was it two he had i forget as i said.Those that take it to the limit in deep meditation see the quantum,be the quantum.
    Not in our lives maybe but one day science will deliver this up for us,mapping it i mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 07:17 PM

I meant Hawking and no i am not inferring he is a closet God botherer.8)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,:-)
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 07:21 PM

The word you mean to use is implying, not inferring.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 07:39 PM

Friggin' "guests"!!

Anyway, first "guest", the one with the longish rambling post, I have an intellectually-driven answer for you right here. It goes like this.



Ahem:










Yeah, right...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 07:56 PM

Thanks guest 8).I bet there is a few more littered through.
      Steve pick the most annoying bit to you and i will try clear it up for you.Listen mate until you have done the leg work you can't see this i know that.You can't help talking about this subject without plagiarising as it is old news,done to death.There is always those that won't have it,despite being surrounded by evidence.I don't get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 08:20 PM

To be fair it is you i wanted on this Steve,or your type.See i Don't care if you destroy it,it is what i am after.Just in case you had made any assumptions.No ego here.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 08:56 PM

I haven't a clue what you're on about. My name's Steve Shaw. Who are you? or youse? Without this info further discourse is useless!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 11:13 PM

Mr. Shaw, regarding your post of 04 Dec 13 - 06:44 PM--

I disagree.

I haven't time right now to explain why I disagree, but I'll be back.

In the meantime, do not patronize me. I don't take kindly to that!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 12:11 AM

Nah not happening Steve.If you ever do get a real interest in this subject then we can continue.I won't be checking back for a while so take your time.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 07:25 AM

I still don't know what you're on about. I'm not debating anything with an anonymous, cowardly "guest", especially one who writes unfocussed nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 07:27 AM

Patronise you, Don? Give over, will you. I gave a proper reply to your post. Don't you start as well!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 07:47 AM

Well barnacle Balls 'tis a long time since you and I had a friendly chat..because of your nautical pretensions we always figured you was a fraud and a salt stayned charleton, but I thought you was slightly better than the ultra buffoon Shaw, the big baby wizzjet, and the slightly deranged gnomeyo..of course you never will be in the same class or legue as sweetcheeks muskett..

But ease the wheel a tad cap'n,,this is fun.

Get on board the good ship happiness( albeit in a very junior rank, since shaw disgraced himself, there maybe a vacancy for a deputy under bilge diver) and leave us set sail for the isle of bullshit..one never knows , you may even find a sense of humour there..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 08:09 AM

The medallions went in the Musket beer fund, sorry about that.

There again, I never denied being a dirty rotten stinking capitalist.

Why is it that people pop in without looking at the thread and what it is about, then start waffling on about trolls and not taking things seriously? Allow me to expand, (I had some pies with your money too fellow pilgrims.)

The semen formally known as JTS decided to point and laugh at people who didn't share his conviction / delusion whatever.

He used his normal approach of quoting someone else (de Waal) and then phrased it so he could either defend or deny any part of it, as it suits him.

Quite a few people pointed out that militant atheism is an oxymoron and decided to invent a new religion instead. (You are all invited to join, just see the associated gnome re initiation.)

String singer started a second thread, this one, trying to be serious again. I said I more than likely wouldn't as I for one don't see the legitimacy of the title.

We are where we are..


In the meantime, we have an anonymous "I'm with Ake."

Anyone for bingo?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 10:23 AM

Nah he did right 8) bit blowy here cap'n so we're manning the lifeboats.Have fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 10:25 AM

Slightly deranged? SLIGHTLY? I'll have you know that I am completely deranged. Unless by slight you mean stature of course but I suspect such a pun is beyond the scope of someone with such a deep and meaningful understanding of the world...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 11:00 AM

Beyond the scope when I wrote it!!When using slightly in describing you it should of course be slight: , your stature, your head set, your brain, your morals, trousers, method of eating asparagus and your general woosy, ginger cake inhabited, centrist Crayola demeanor!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 01:10 PM

I think even our Conc will get this :-)

List of scientists who became creationists

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 01:34 PM

Mr. Shaw. And others,

There is such a thing as rational doubt. And room for speculation about things that one may have previously thought were impossible.

I do not believe in the kind of Supreme Being that some people seem to believe in:   the powerfully built, bearded old man dressed in a bed sheet who keeps a careful ledger of who's naughty and who's nice, hurls thunderbolts at the naughty ones, and marks the fall of every sparrow. That, as I see it, is a very limited view of a postulated entity that could have created the entire universe. Basically, it reduces the concept of a "Supreme Being" to that of a mere wizard.

But I could be wrong.

If you have ever read any of the books by Michio Kaku, professor of theoretical physics at City University of New York, with a mind open to expansion and speculation, one may cease to be so rock-solid certain of what one knows about the nature of Life, the Universe, and Everything. Professor Kaku has written such books as Hyperspace, Parallel Worlds, Physics of the Impossible, and several other similar books.

I am not going to try to give a synopsis of his works, but he speculates—and often provides compelling arguments—for a number of things that are very strange about the universe—and the possible—probable—existence of other universes—that should cause one to wonder about a number of things and not be so bloody certain about other things that one might have taken as certainties.

He is in no way a theologian and I don't know what his religious beliefs are, if any. He does not deal with religious concepts. But some of his speculations, with supporting evidence or arguments, can cause one to expand one's mind a bit and consider some things in a whole new light that one might have simply written off as impossible or mere superstition.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 01:43 PM

interesting bit of latest creation mag.-
laura Keynes, gt,gt,gt,grandaughter of Darwin now embraces a passionate catholic faith. the dr of philosophy credits dawkins and co as driving her away from atheism, because of the anger,pride and contempt for others she discerned.
"I expected to be moved from agnosticism to atheism by their arguments, but after reading on both sides of the debate, I couldn't dismiss a compelling intellectual case for faith"

so carry on your abusive outbursts ,gents, you never know what you might achieve!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 02:03 PM

Arthur C. Clarke's Three Laws:

1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.

3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket again
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 03:35 PM

Just re read the updated Clarke biography. His laws are pertinent to this thread Don. The original creationist thread had me quote them too.

Mind you, he had an ego and celebrated the fact. Carl Sagan said he had some cheek with his first law. . The laws of course get better the more we understand about quantum mechanics. I say we.   I know far less than some around here would have us believe they understand.

By the way Don. You are pushing on an open door. Neither Co Messiah nor indeed the associated gnome profess that there is no god. Just that it is in the flying teapot category.

Mind you, with starry pete back in the thread, a welcome discourse on dinosaurs and Darwin is about to start.

Buy popcorn and enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 04:12 PM

But I could be wrong.

Yeah, me too, Don. Not once have I ever said that I'm certain that there is no God. I tend to leave the certainty to those deluded souls who'll accept stuff without evidence that someone has passed down to them. Our Father who art in heaven. I mean, how much more certain than that can you get? How great thou art.

The chanted, brainless prayers wouldn't sound as good though, would they. Our Father, who we think might be in a place we think might exist called heaven... How great thou wouldst be if thou existeth, which we think, on balance, that you may just...

Nah. Way too humble...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 04:17 PM



There is no intellectual case for faith. There is an intellectual case for gleaning and considering evidence. Faith may be very nice but to say there's an intellectual case for it is rather like saying that atheism is a religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 04:43 PM

Let us do a thought experiment.

Let us suppose you bought a large aquarium for your living room. You fill it with the usual paraphernalia, of course: a little aquatic shrubbery, the little castle, gravel and rocks and sea shells lining the bottom. Water, of course, and a bubbling water aerator.

And, of course, a variety of tropical fish.

Now, after the fish have been there long enough to have built their own societies and various institutions—how may they begin to regard YOU, whom they have never actually seen, but who has Created the Universe in which they live?

Although they try, they have no real understanding of Who or What You are, or what you nature and intent is.

But you DO exist!

Think on it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 05:06 PM

well , laura Keynes obviously thought there is such a thing, and of course I agree with her. and with a little attention to the quote, you will observe that it is not a blind unreasoned faith but a reasonable faith adopted after examining the arguments.
atheism, on the other hand is an unreasonable faith whose professors prefer to believe concepts that, so far, are demonstrably impossible at worst and fantastic at best.
the definitions of a religion include the enthusiastic adoption of a position. this may or may not include a deity. buddhism and the new atheism are examples of the latter.
mock and rage on - someone else might move toward a reasonable faith!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 06:09 PM

. . . Poor bewildered guppy. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 09:27 PM

Yeah, pete babe, you've said some dense things in your time but you're beginning to sound a bit like Eric Cantona: "When the seagulls follow the trawler, it's because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea. Thank you very much." Yeah, Eric.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket again
Date: 06 Dec 13 - 03:13 AM

Three weeks ago, a chemical reaction started in my fish tank which, as we were away for the weekend, resulted in losing the lot.

It wasn't the will of this God let me tell you!

The thought experiment Don refers to used to be put forward in excellent style in The Perishers newspaper comic strip. Once a year during August saw the Perishers gang on holiday and old Boot the dog going back to the rock pool with the crabs in it. The crabs for their part used to prepare for the big hairy face peering each year from the sky and worship it. The crab who had sussed it was always August was the de facto leader of the crabs as his predictions made other crabs think he knew the will of God so best let him be the boss in case the God got upset.

Religion in a strip.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Dec 13 - 07:12 PM

talking of predictions,- the article on creation.com today was about mercury [the planet] seems close inspection from the space probes did not match up with evolutionary, deep time expectations. of course some kind of rescue plan to explain failed prediction emerged, but decades previously creationist dr russ humphriess developed a model which predicted almost exactly what was found as regards magnetic field. a model using bible information as the starting point.
I suppose you would think him, poor, bewildered, dense.......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 13 - 08:26 PM

I suppose I would think you poor, bewildered, dense, if you think that any evolutionary principle could be applied to Mercury. Actually, I don't even need that qualification in order to think it. To know it even.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 03:25 AM

Don't worry. We have at least one pedant who will lazily google pete's weird waffle and call anyone a liar who disagrees with the first hit he puts a link to...

We have another who will say he likes mercury but Uranus is a deviant pevert.

Creation.com eh? Personally, I prefer the website with a repeating video of a seal spinning round in the water to music. I can watch it for hours....

Anyway, I have found an old Perishers year book and when I return home this evening, I intend to read it. Might even look at the pictures.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 10:41 AM

Let us do a fraud experiment................take wizzjet jerk the sailio, shaw, gnomyo, Herr kieth@hatefilled dot com. and the rest of the mudcat dysfunctional muppets...and follow these instructions:

1. form a circle,
2. take a large handful of crayons
3. put large shit eating grin on your visage
4. dip crayons in fish paste
5. one by one place crayons in the round brown
6.repeat carefully " i am a centrist posing cake eating ginger cake inhabitant no nothing "
7.keep in that position until I tell you to stop

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 12:57 PM

...a bit short on intelligent responses so far, despite the qualifications of the usual suspects...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 01:25 PM

One day they won't look so bloody smug Pete.....:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 01:38 PM

Okay, pete, let's cut to the chase here:   Exactly what—and where in the Bible—is this "Biblical information" that allows one to make predictions about planetary magnetic fields? ANY planet, but in this case, specifically Mercury?

Careful now! I know the Bible pretty well, and in addition to being an astronomy and cosmology buff since I was a youngster, I've taken several astronomy courses (even spent time in an actual observatory with my eye affixed to the telescope), and I have a whole shelf of books on the subject.

I expect some specific answers.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 02:11 PM

For one simple thing, there is no LIFE on Mercury. There is almost no atmosphere on Mecury, and what atmosphere there is would be poisonous to all known life forms. Alse, the surface temperature of Mercury ranges from a high of 800 degrees Fahrenheit to a low of 279 below Fahrenheit.

Evolution CAN'T take place where there is no life. And although Mercury resembles our moon and is about one-third larger, it is even less hospitable to life than the moon.

So—what IS this Biblical data, and how was it derived by early sages?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 02:34 PM

It is to do with the age of the Solar System.
Evolution requires billions, creation requires thousands.
Pete's source believe they are challenging that.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 02:37 PM

Also of course we believe the solar system itself has evolved from an original nebula, while creationists believe it was created just as it is now.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 03:33 PM

Pete's source believe they are challenging that.

Pete's source - and pete as well - believe all manner of preposterous & ridiculous shit.

So what?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 03:50 PM

Astronomer Fred Whipple formulated the "Whipple Dust Cloud Theory," which describes, not only the formation of stars, but the formation of planetary systems as well—and even the characteristics of the planets themselves. It predicted the existence of the Oort cloud, comets, and all sorts of debris left over from the Creation--by Natural Forces obeying physical laws. The prediction was made before the discovery of the existence of the Oort cloud.

And it also predicts what we have since discovered to be true, with the advent of the Hubble telescope:   that it is unusual for a star to exist without having at least a few planets orbiting it.

Considering the "billions and billions" of worlds existing in the known Universe, the possibility of life on other worlds becomes almost a certainty.

How does pete's Bible explain that?

No, if all of this were created by some sort of Supreme Being, then I'm afraid pete's God, who made the earth a mere 6,000 years ago and had to personally create all the creatures thereon, is relegated to the category of a mere Wizard with a wand and a pointy hat.

Abandoning the limited concept of Creationism leaves religion open to worshipping a really Supreme Being.

Much more to say on the subject, but I have guests coming right now. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,A.Coward
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 04:30 PM

The Dialectic Don has it in hand Greg.By far the best way to go if interested doncha fink.Trouble Pete has imo he has brought one slippery rug and stood on it,or maybe not who knows, he may have carpets.Imo he needs to show an objective;method, and a demonstrable pattern/process a body of evidence and his conclusions.Help here if i have missed something.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket drooling
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 04:46 PM

If you expect a reasonable response from pete, my one about the spinning seal stands as much chance of him answering you.

In the meantime I don't mind looking "so bloody smug."

One day eh worm? The rise of the little men. Can't wait.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 13 - 06:25 AM

This story should get the Christian fundamentalists in a tizzy. Moslem fundamentalists believe the same stories! Good heavens, what is this world coming to...

:DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Dec 13 - 08:09 PM

ok don firth. the details are to be found in the article "more marks of a young mercury" easily accessed i.m sure.
Humphries started from gen 1v3 and 2 Peter 3v5 that inform us of the creation out of water ,and he works from there. it is a model and therefore could be faulty or incomplete, but my point was that such [creationary] model has produced verified prediction.
I did not know the oort cloud had been observed- a ref maybe?
and life on mercury - maybe. NASA fails to clean its craft entirely as extremophiles resist the most stringent attempts at elimination and any life [ie bugs] out there probably came from earth.
my God a wizard with a pointed hat?! well yours , if you actually believe in one, is a bungler who cant get it right to start with.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket giggling
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 01:12 AM

Thanks for the bit regarding mercury pete.

If you can make someone piss themselves laughing where there were only dry trousers before. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 07:49 AM

Do you think we could move on from all this cronyism , judgmental, self promoting bilge now that the festive season is nearly upon us?

Personally I shall be stocking up on large amounts of tuck, even more amounts of drink and intend to usher in the festive season with a three day drinking binge..well we only do it for the kids don't we?

In the interest of promoting the festive season, may I extend a very cool yule to all you yeggs, cake eaters, judgmental phony centrist, ginger woosy smug buffoons on my thread.

In the very slim hopes that you all have a better attitude for the New Year


MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 09:55 AM

All the best to you too, Conc. May you have a very merry Christmas and rise to even greater heights in the New Year :-)

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 10:29 AM

But but but.... I don't fit into any of those categories! Aren't you going to wish me a "special" Merry Chrimbo?

I've got the mistletoe, bottle of Babycham (or was it baby oil, I forget) and packet of pork scratchings all ready for a celebration of when Santa Claus was nailed to a cross or whatever it is they reckon is behind the annual binge.

I feel a festive song coming on...

Oh!!!!!

Check the balls on that big collie tra la la la laa la la la la.
He gets big when he gets jolly tra la la la laa la la la la.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 10:41 AM

Is there any reference to gay apparel and trolls in this song? :-) If so, you'd better watch out. Is there another song there somewhere?

D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 02:36 PM

Pete, there are a whole bundle of inaccuracies about Mercury in that article. So many that it would take me a couple of days to detail them all and I simply don't have the time for that. And you wouldn't believe it anyway. All those supposed anomalies are well within the range of know physics and planetology.

I'm afraid it's your concept of God who is the real bungler. He allowed the serpent into the Garden of Eden in the first place and wasn't minding the store when the Slithery One conned Eve. Then He was off somewhere doing something when Cain killed Abel. Later on, He decided things had gone so pear-shaped that He had to essentially destroy His Creation and almost everyone in it and start all over. Hence, the Flood.

Not one of the sharper graduates of Hogwarts, I'm afraid!

My concept of a Supreme Being would be a Consciousness that could lay out the laws of physics and chemistry (which pretty much subsumes everything else such as laws of planetary motion and biochemistry-genetics-evolution, et al), then once that is programmed into the system, says, "Okay, let 'er rip!" And everything follows in due course and time, including the evolution of man from lower biological forms.

My concept of a Supreme Being doesn't have to keep tinkering with the system, fine-tuning it, and hitting the "reset" button because He, She, or It was intelligent enough to get it right in the first place.

And as to the length of time involved? 12,500,000,000 for the Cosmos to form, with the Sun, Earth, and the rest of the solar system forming over the past 4,500,000,000 years. The Supreme Being is Eternal. He, She, or It, isn't in any particular rush.

What's the hurry?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 03:12 PM

Genesis 1v3:

" And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light"

2 Peter 3-5

3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.

How the heck you extrapolate the formation of Mercury from that lot is anyone's guess.

"I did not know the oort cloud had been observed- a ref maybe?"

Crikey, the man who never supplies refs wants a ref! Whooda thunk it?

So here goes . . . I don't think the Oort cloud is directly observable, but we know from the orbits of comets they are bound to our sun, and must have originated from beyond the orbit of Pluto but not interstellar space (which I'm guessing Pete doesn't think exists anyway) and are pulled into the inner solar system due to the gravitational forces of the planets essentially knocking them off kilter.

Odd though Pete. You accept everything in the Bible (including the nasty bits) on face value, and as the literal truth but then refuse to believe anything else that runs contrary to unless . . . some bloke on a creationist website says it's true. Is your only way of discerning any fundamental, observable truth by referring back to the bible and anonymous posts on the web? How do you cope with the telly, mobile phones and, er, computers? These rely on scientific principles which you don't believe in, and are not mentioned in the bible.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket again
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 03:23 PM

Yeah. On that point when I was running a business, a good customer / distributer company was owned by a weird but harmless bloke who was a member of a loony Christian cult. One that made women wear hankies on their heads.

It was a good few years ago and faxes were a recent thing. I rang the sales manager there and asked if they had a fax number yet? No, came the answer. The boss had been at a Bible study group that had deduced faxes were contrary to biblical teaching.

I heard in more recent years, mobile phones and email were added. Sadly for all concerned, mammon is the work of the devil and the company went tits up.

A moral there somewhere in the Oort cloud. They were based in Bristol which is about the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 05:51 PM

thanks stu for answering my question to don,-ie that the oort cloud has not been observed, albeit suggesting an interpretation of the data as to why you believe it is there.
still resorting to the tactic of equating what is repeatable, observable ,testable science with what is only interpretation of the unrepeatable and therefore falling short of the scientific principles you mention - unless of course you seriously dilute those principles.
but then that is what the general theory of evolution does - and then passes it off as established fact!.
that should have been gen 1v2-sorry.the article did not go into great detail as to how the predictions were worked out, but there was a good degree of accuracy validated by the subsequent space exploration, it seems. i think that DOES fall into the scientific method .

credit at least for looking at the article, don. must admit to being disappointed you found so many factual errors. I confess you have the advantage , but maybe you could outline just briefly maybe just two of the most significant factual mistakes, so I can try to check them out. maybe you might even use the comment facility on the site to correct them, as I doubt they want to perpetuate inaccurate facts, though of course the interpretation in terms of cosmic history will differ.
your concept of a supreme being is just that - a concept. I believe in a God of revelation. I don't pretend that I can answer every theological problem, though I could go so far, but not the complete answer. that is where faith does come in.
never-the-less biblical revelation does provide a framework of belief and practise for the believer, whereas your "concept" provides nothing except a pick and choose, take or leave it ,not much to believe in vagueness.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 06:39 PM

The Oort cloud (named after Dutch astronomer Jan Oort, who first predicted its existence) was further predicted by astronomer Fred Whipple in his "dust cloud" theory (no longer a theory, but an established fact) as a normal "left-over" from the formation of a star and its attendant planets.

Its existence was actually verified when the Voyager space probe completed its survey of outer planets, then headed out into deep space--yet, surprisingly kept sending back data (good batteries!).

There is nothing about the planet Mercury that can be construed as unusual or especially surprising, seeing its proximity to the sun and the fact that it has a molten iron core, like Earth.

There, incidentally, is a thought to give you nightmares. The earth's surface upon which we live is composed of tectonic plates--like chunks of slag drifting around on the surface of a ball of molten iron. It's convection currents within that ball that moves the plates around, causing earthquakes and volcanoes.

Sweet dreams!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 07:54 PM

With a good telescope, it's possible to see new stars and planetary systems being formed all throughout the galaxy. In such clouds of gas and dust as the "Horse Head Nebula," or in the cloudy "arms" of the galaxy—and in distant galaxies—there are what might be called "nodules" (called "Bok globules" after astronomer Bart Bok [any relation to Gordon? I dunno]—in which the dust and gas seems to have formed a gravitational center and all of the matter is orbiting around that center. As it orbits faster and faster, it forms "sub-centers" of gravitation. Sooner or later, enough matter has been gathered in the center so that gravitational pressure sets up a nuclear reaction and the star ignites. These globules are sometimes referred to as "star nurseries."

The sub-centers congeal into planets, which continue to orbit around the new-formed sun. The left-over gas and dust on the periphery forms the Oort cloud, which spawns meteors and comets, which drift about aimlessly until captured by the sun's gravity and fall into a closer orbit around the sun.

Once you have made a few observations, you can formulate a theory. Then you confirm, modify, or abandon the theory based on further observations.

Those who wrote the scrolls that were later compiled into what we now call "the Bible" didn't have a clue about any of this. The "theories" set forth in the Bible are simply "best guess" as to how all of this came about.

Then—blokes like Copernicus and Galileo, instead of slavishly following the ancient writings in the Bible, had the audacity to simply look at the skies.

Interesting that the "Powers That Be" at the time threatened them with being burned at the stake for doing so.

And as far as the "theory" of evolution is concerned, discoveries made over a period of time in environmental adaptation and its continuity through genetics have pretty well established it as—FACT.

Sorry, Pete. But THAT is the way God did it!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 08:43 PM

Some years ago, Bill Moyers conducted a series of televised interviews with Joseph Campbell, writer of Myth and Metaphor and The Hero with a Thousand Faces and many other books.

CLICKY.

These interviews are available on DVD. Second paragraph of the web site I provided a link to just above. They are well worth getting and watching (maybe your local public library).

Among many other things, Campbell says that there are great truths to be found in myths. But—where man and religions go wrong is when they take the myth—and the metaphors therein—as literal historical facts.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket again
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 01:16 AM

I reckon that two years from now, the co Messiahs and associated gnome together with holy bingo and the prophet Betty Swollox from the distant land of Knott End will become rigid fact of historical value.   People will be willing to go to war over preserving the sanctity of gob irons and the riddle of the holy land known as S6.

In fact, Max Hastings is already writing the history of the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 02:21 PM

nice picture ,don. but sorry that is not the way God done it. the observations you claim make evolutionism a fact, at best illustrate natural selection/survival of the fittest, and at worst how complex even the simplest of life forms are for it to have popped into existence by itself.
as you failed to provide a ref to voyager verifying oort cloud ,I looked up a few sites [not only creation] but it seems still indefinite ,best I can see.
as well as inviting you to ref that assertion, how about just two factual errors in the CMI article that you claimed was riddled with error?
the pope apparently had no problem with galileos heliocentric model till he characterized him as "simplicico" in his writings. I believe it was the science of the day that mainly opposed him .I think it was planetary bodies epicycles that they clung to, just as Darwinism is clung to now, despite evidence to the contrary.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 04:05 PM

Fair point, pete. Voyager 1 still has a way to go before it will pass through the Oort Cloud. I'm afraid I was confusing the Kuiper Belt with the Oort Cloud. This is where comets come from.

But—halos (or Oort Clouds) have been observed around other stars. In fact it is inconceivable that a star could form without leaving a large cloud of matter that didn't get caught up sufficiently in the new-formed star's gravitational pull to the center, but is still sufficiently trapped by gravity to orbit the star.

Why does this in any way contradict anything in the Bible? I don't see your problem.

Observations of the skies with the new orbital telescopes have revealed that the vast majority of the "billions and billions" of stars in the Cosmos are what are known as "main sequence" stars, neither giants nor dwarfs, and that well over 100 of the nearest stars have planets orbiting them. Just statistically, some of those planets will be earth-like, terrestrial worlds, in the "temperate zone" (between the freezing and boiling point of water) to have atmospheres, and, indeed, oceans.

In which Life can evolve!

In the novel, Contact, written by Carl Sagan, then movie starring Jodie Foster as Ellie Arroway, director of a SETI project, said when a group of school children asked her if there were life on other planets, "The universe is a pretty big place. It's bigger than anything anyone has ever dreamed of before. So if it's just us... seems like an awful waste of space. Right?"

Take a stew of organic chemicals, such as those found in watery areas all over the world and add energy—such as sunlight—and this—amazingly enough but demonstrably true—can produce one-celled living organisms. Life! And at this point, the process of evolution can begin.

It sounds a bit "Frankensteinian," but it is possible to produce living, one-celled organisms in the laboratory, in a beaker full of chemicals that include carbon by in-putting a bit of energy. Sometimes even bumping the beaker is sufficient to get the reactions going. True, nothing has come crawling up out of the beaker and said "Take me to your leader," but Life nevertheless!

This is demonstrable and repeatable.

And it's at this point that evolution, natural selection, and "the survival of the fittest" can begin.

This same process can take place on ANY planet with essentially earthlike characteristics (and perhaps others, but that is, as yet, uncertain). So it's simply illogical—and small-minded—to assume Life is confined to one planet only in this incredibly vast Cosmos.

One of the problems with Creationists is that they make the somewhat (I would think!) blasphemous assumption that the Almighty, All-Powerful God they worship is only capable of coping with one small planet and has to keep tinkering with the doings of His living creations.

If this vast Cosmos in which we live were, indeed, created by an Almighty Omniscient Intelligence, He, She, or It is so far beyond our knowledge—even our ability to comprehend—that claiming to know the Mind of God is the rankest of blasphemies.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 05:25 PM

add energy—such as sunlight—and this—amazingly enough but demonstrably true—can produce one-celled living organisms. Life!

Not demonstrated yet.

but it is possible to produce living, one-celled organisms in the laboratory
Possibly, but never yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 06:40 PM

Keith, according to Carl Sagan and a number of biochemists, it has been demonstrated, many times.

I'll see if I can find a link.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 02:09 AM

No.
I am sure it will be, but not yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 02:10 AM

1300!
Just amino acids.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 05:44 AM

That means there was nearly 1300 crap, judgmental, pseudo intellectual examples of unadulterated bilge, put out by the usual ginger woosy, cake eating crate eggs like shaw, the big baby wizzjet , the deranged gnomett,, Herr kieth@hatefilled dot com, seaman staynes.

Mind you amongst all this self opinionated nonsense there is the occasional gem of well reasoned criticism from the likes of me sweet bay muskett and of course not forgetting myself,,,


A very special Merry Xmas sweetbunsxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 01:15 PM

thankyou don, it shows grace to concede a point to another less learned.
I confess that I am hazy as to whether it makes much difference to the bible timeline if there is an oort cloud or not, but I understand that oort predicted his cloud, not because it had any evidence for it, but because deep time required something to rescue it from the contrary evidence.
if God had not revealed to us something of how and when he created, it might indeed border on blasphemous to postulate on it. he has however revealed it ,and I would say the blasphemy lies nearer the door of the evolutionist.
reading your claim that one cell organism was accomplished, I was doubtful, and reading keiths post I remembered why.
he , however has a lot of faith that something so far ,impossible will happen. and lets not forget that this is with already existing components and intelligent imput!
is the vastness of space a waste of space should it be uninhabited elsewhere?
well I don't presume to know the mind of God on this!
but to venture a suggestion, as ps 19v1 says-
"the heavens declare the glory of God....."
it reminds me of the craftsmanship in inaccessible heights of cathedrals- no one would see it but GOD ,whom the craftsman presumably wished to praise. and when science delves ever deeper beyond, and within, it ought to bring him the greater praise.
those big balls of gas however are much less complex than the cell, the complexity of which ,with its mini factories conveying and duplicating
information defy the evolutionary mindset.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 02:58 PM

On the biochemical origins of life, I recall watching a number of science programs on the tube (Nova and such) dealing with "black smokers," volcanic vents at the bottoms of the oceans. Many of them along the mid-Atlantic ridge and in the Pacific where volcanic activity is pushing tectonic plates apart.

The water temperatures around these "black smokers" is in the range of about 700 degrees. At sea level, water boils at 212 degrees, but the water pressure at a depth of several miles makes it possible for water temperature to rise to staggering heights without the water actually boiling.

NO form of life should be able to exist at this temperature and pressure. Yet—the density of living organisms, from micro-organisms to crustaceans to giant "tube worms" is staggering! Any life form coming from more temperate environments would be killed before it got there, so—where did these life-forms come from!??

From an article in Wikipedia:

Hydrothermal origin of life:

Günter Wächtershäuser (German biochemist—DF) proposed the iron-sulfur world theory and suggested that life might have originated at hydrothermal vents [Emphasis mine—DF]. Wächtershäuser proposed that an early form of metabolism predated genetics. By metabolism he meant a cycle of chemical reactions that release energy in a form that can be harnessed by other processes.

It has been proposed that amino-acid synthesis could have occurred deep in the Earth's crust and that these amino-acids were subsequently shot up along with hydrothermal fluids into cooler waters, where lower temperatures and the presence of clay minerals would have fostered the formation of peptides and protocells. This is an attractive hypothesis because of the abundance of CH4 (methane) and NH3 (ammonia) present in hydrothermal vent regions, a condition that was not provided by the Earth's primitive atmosphere. A major limitation to this hypothesis is the lack of stability of organic molecules at high temperatures, but some have suggested that life would have originated outside of the zones of highest temperature. There are numerous species of extremophiles and other organisms currently living immediately around deep-sea vents, suggesting that this is indeed a possible scenario.

Not only does this imply that, given the right conditions, Life can be created biochemically, but it also implies that one does not necessarily need Earthlike conditions on alien planets for life to have developed there.

Because some of the conditions on Jupiter are similar to conditions found near hydrothermal vents in the Earth's oceans, there may be life on Jupiter.

Probably wouldn't be able to join it at the local pub for a pint, but there nevertheless!

This is one fascinating Universe. I'm sorry to say, far more varied and interesting than anything suggested in the Bible. But then, those who penned the original scrolls thought the "Heavens and Earth" were much, MUCH smaller and more limited than they really are!

And Creationists' idea of this whole, vast Cosmos seems to be circumscribed to what they can see while peering through a keyhole.

Full Wiki article HERE.

Don Firth

P. S. Another pretty interesting article here:   Loki's Castle.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 03:06 AM

Here's looking at you too sweetums xxx

Ah. A lady of taste. I don't know why the rest of the crèche can't see how wonderfully observant she is? Got me weighed up for starters.

Hey pete! Keep banging the rocks together!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 04:25 AM

"I believe in a God of revelation. I don't pretend that I can answer every theological problem, though I could go so far, but not the complete answer. that is where faith does come in."

Pete, it always amazes me that you are presumptious enough to 'criticise' the theories and findings of modern science (mainly because they are, necessarily, incomplete) when all that you can come up with is bull-shitty, pious 'faith-based' waffle such as the quote above!

So, pete, let's try again:

Who or what made God?
What materials did the God-maker use?
Where did God gets his materials from?

Remember, I won't be convinced by piety or pleas of ineffability. If you want to wallow in the obscurantist drivel in an old book, then so be it! But you can't stand on some lofty pinnacle and hurl rocks down on the constructions of modern science whilst, at the same time, not allowing your own inflexible beliefs to be open to scrutiny.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 06:53 AM

I had read about extremophiles some time ago on CMI [incidentally, don, the invitation still stands to briefly outline a couple of alleged factual errors in the mercury article] which made the point that as they could drop off spacecraft, any claim of finding microlife out there would be suspect - unless of course it evolved into something you could take to the pub with you!.
the article you quoted was at best speculative, and of course driven by a prior commitment to deep time and evolutionary process.

shimrod - round an round we go. we both have a faith position since you cling to unproven theories and ideas lacking any evidence whatever. I at least have a creator to posit, who is immaterial while you posit popping into existence from nothing via no one.
scientific - I don't think so!

musket - will do, but it must be much harder with your head in the sand!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 07:04 AM

"those big balls of gas however are much less complex than the cell, the complexity of which ,with its mini factories conveying and duplicating information defy the evolutionary mindset.

There's so much wrong with this sentence it sorts of encapsulates why the likes of Pete cannot be allowed to drag us back into the morass of superstition and ignorance which so many have worked to elevate us from.

Pete's creationism is based one just one creation myths amongst many. It's not even a particularly poetic or beautiful story, and a quick glance at Wikipedia's creation myth web page provides a range of far more interesting and captivating creation stories, my favourites being the Norse (particularly after visiting Norway earlier this year) and the Australian indigenous Dreamtime, which is simply wonderful.

Interestingly, if you take Pete's 'methodology' to some of these myths you can come up with the sort of ignorant todge he does, and read floods and feck knows what else into these narratives and skew them to your own nefarious ends. It's as entertaining as it is enlightening.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 07:12 AM

I suppose at some point science will determine how to create "life", but will that not just open up yet another nightmare scenario for humanity?

Basically we are just another species, some of whom :0), have a working, reasoning brain. Is it in our interests as species to create "life".......is that function not better left in Gods domain?

IS it "ethical" to let science progress till we destroy society and ourselves?.....Are some things not "beyond the bucket?"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket smiling
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 09:14 AM

We used to let a God create things and he came up with you!

I suppose when a hoard of peasants with burning torches march on the observatory, they will want a nutter to tell them about what Dr Frankenstein is up to.

It's a good job I don't take the worm's posts seriously, I don't know where to start with that gem.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 10:02 AM

"shimrod - round an round we go. we both have a faith position since you cling to unproven theories and ideas lacking any evidence whatever. I at least have a creator to posit, who is immaterial while you posit popping into existence from nothing via no one."

No, pete, only you, and your fellow creationists, have a "faith position" - i.e. you, and they, have been brainwashed into fervently believing old myths without question. Scientists, on the other hand, gather evidence, test theories and build models. Those models are, by their very nature, provisional and can be over-turned and discarded in the face of new evidence (a much less comfortable - but more exciting - position than blind, unquestioning faith).

And, in your opinion, it comes down to an "immaterial creator" (???) vs "popping into existence etc." does it? As far as I'm concerned I am aware that there is evidence for the latter (how ever unconvincing you insist on finding it) and absolutely no evidence, whatsoever, for the former (myths and stories in an old book don't count as evidence).

Oh yes, pete:

Who or what made God?
What materials did the God-maker use?
Where did God gets his materials from?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 12:22 PM

usual bible vs science misrepresentation, shimrod.
like it or not, not all scientists are evolutionist.
I suspect there were people like you that told galileo that his idea was anti science too.
granted the evidence does not prove the bible correct directly. it does however support a younger creation than the aeons posited by evolutionism [eg dna, soft tissue, blood residue in dinos] and thus the bible is more consistent with the data IMO.

Stu says " so much wrong with.............." without saying what.
granted I may not talk in scientific terms but I think I am essentially correct, though incomplete, and of course he reject the conclusion.

going back to the post from don, pt 2-
the biblical scribes almost certainly had no idea of the vastness of space , but of course GOD did, and Christians believe he inspired the writings.
take gen 15 v 5,   22 v 17 jerimiah 33 v 22. the stars visible at night could be counted, so a comparison with grains of sand might seem a poor comparison. we now know that is not the case and I think stars are uncountable , more being discovered as probes reach further.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 03:11 AM

To be fair, when pete says not all scientists are evolutionists he isn't far off. After all, that would be a position and whilst speaking and acting as a scientist, a person has no such position. They may test the hypothesis but believe in it?

The nearest would be to say there is no evidence put forward for an alternative whilst discovery constantly underlines the evolution hypothesis.

By the way, insulting waffle on creation.com written to support superstition isn't evidence. The quotes from pete that originate there can't even impress me, and evolution isn't my field. Not by a long way.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 04:05 AM

I was not 'misrepresenting' anything, pete!

I strongly suspect that ALL reputable scientists are "evolutionists" (your word - not mine!). Only a handful of, mainly, right wing North American religious fundamentalists (masquerading as scientists)are "creationists" - and a few people, such as yourself, have allowed themselves to be bamboozled by them!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 04:13 AM

like it or not, not all scientists are evolutionist

I linked it before but it is worth doing again

List of scientists who became creationists


DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 05:18 AM

Nice one, Dave!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 06:34 AM

The terms "evolutionist" and "Darwinist" are used in various meanings. The following definitions may be the most common ones:

Evolutionist: someone who believes that things get better gradually.
Darwinist: someone (- not Darwin -) who believes that winning means being better and thus being right.

Both views have nothing to do with scientific evolution theory. Whoever holds them cannot claim science, and must be criticized strongly.

Actually attacking biological evolution theory only makes sense for "old earth / long day creationists". Bible literalists are "young earth creationists", which means that the Lord God made them all, including the various human languages, native Americans, ...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 06:50 AM

I do not believe it!!!!!!!!

One of the centrist, ginger woosy, cake eating (liberal with a (small l) pussy's,the very one who slagged me of for cutting and pasting is actually blatantly doing it!!!

The deranged gnomyo, who is only second to big baby wizzjet as being a crass, self promoting blackguard, is also trying to make his pathetic stature and even more pathetic unit look big with his pseudo intellectual chicanery.

He should really learn his catechism.."those in glass houses shouldn't"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 08:03 AM

You really need to learn the difference between C&P and providing links, Conc old pal. You have been proved over and over again to be a liar and a waste of everyone's time. If it wasn't so funny to wind you up I would even bother commenting. Keep coming back though, you are one of the few benefits of this thread :-)

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 09:02 AM

Again gnomet you are showing yourself up to be a fraud, a charleton and a condescending and patronizing pseud..

what is c and ping other than what you did here?:

"like it or not, not all scientists are evolutionist"...now who is the liar?

Listen up fool...taint no good playing the jive turkey so near the yule tide

Who is winding who up?

It is you who keep this going with coming back to a self admitted troll..now who is a waste of every ones time?

How many times do I have to tell you all...I am way ahead of you and wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy to good for you..

please buck your ideas up or I may have to leave for real..xxxxxxxx have a really cool yule

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 10:16 AM

Nah, sorry Conc. No points again. Everyone knows that quotes like that are in italics whereas blatant and misleading C&P without quoting sources is different again. As to who is winding who up. Well, I don't get wound up enough to make up wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy or any other such silly words because I am in a tizzy do I? :-)

Cool Yule to yourself too

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 10:23 AM

"Stu says " so much wrong with………….." without saying what."

It's not difficult to understand. Everything is wrong in that sentence. Defying mindsets, complexity, mini-factories (hah!), big balls of gas lacking complexity . . . oh my word.


"we now know that is not the case and I think stars are uncountable , more being discovered as probes reach further."

But you can't believe this Pete. The very existence of those stars and the way we observe them and discover their true nature flies in the face of your creationist views. As a fundamentalist you deny science (apart from the bits you can twist to your own view). Of course discovering distant stars and galaxies in no way threatens the existence of God, but utterly torpedoes the childish nonsense of creationism.

Of course, extremists and literalists whose reason trammeled by the dogma of superstition and whose views are not their own but dictated to them by people with dubious motives. I find it odd that if God made us in her image then he would understand our innate curiosity and desire to understand the universe we are born of and, would be pleased her creations are so determined in their efforts to comprehend their place in the universe.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 10:34 AM

I really have to laugh at this deluded clown He actually believes his own bullshit....tee! hee! or may-hap HO! HO!

Yule tide crayons on the way dwarf. Which one are you by the by? I am betting Dopey for starters..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 12:05 PM

Awww, bless him. Doesn't even know the difference between a Gnome and a Dwarf :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 12:30 PM

curiouser and curiouser?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 01:15 PM

shimrod and dave being deliberately ignorant of the list of scientists who are creationist - not to mention many more who are Darwin doubters. granted it took 3 pages on the web to find the long list of creation scientists, as before that, rational[?]wiki hijacks the entries. I think musket is mistaken in thinking that scientists are immune to their research and conclusions being coloured by their own worldviews. creationists though are generally upfront as to their worldview. I should note however that some evolutionists have admitted the lack of evidence for their position, and I have previously quoted such.
I don't know what the supposedly insulting bit is that I am charged with copying?

methinks you are being evasive, stu. as I said,- maybe not scientific lanquage.........if I am factually way off, please enlighten me.
I know of course you reject the conclusion.
so, what is your point regarding stars, other than assuming to guess that God would approve of evolutionists attempting to disprove him as creator. how do stars fly in the face of creationism? . I know that their light is coming to us from before a creation date, but their are models that address this, and I understand that evolutionary ideas also have problems fitting it in also.

so how do you define those terms, grishka?
I believe there is a good definition by kerkut, of the general theory of evolution , which is probably known to you?.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 04:51 PM

"shimrod and dave being deliberately ignorant of the list of scientists who are creationist ..."

We can't be "deliberately ignorant" if we don't know any! I'm not sure from your post if you've actually found any, pete. If you have got such a list, though, how many of the people on that list are North American religious fundamentalists with a right wing political agenda?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 05:11 PM

Shim...What makes you think that a persons faith has any bearing on their political allegiance?

I know several confirmed Christians who are also socialists.
This forum is "left biased" yet there are many here who have a faith in god.
I think perhaps the "religiophobes" are just more voluble on this particular forum.....probably there is a silent majority here who do not want to discuss their personal beliefs with strangers.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 07:09 PM

shimrod - round an round we go. we both have a faith position since you cling to unproven theories and ideas lacking any evidence whatever. I at least have a creator to posit

Well now, pete, "you at least have a creator to posit". My, pete, "posit". Helluva clever word there! Unfortunately, your accommodation of this pretentious word points even more sharply than ever to your total idiocy. The irony of the above quote (irony lamentably unrecognised by you, of course) is that there is no such thing as an unproven theory, that coupled with the obstinate fact that your "posited creator" (Jesus, I wonder how he'd feel about your saying that if he actually existed!) is totally without evidence. The trouble with you, pete, is that you know nothing about science and nothing about religion. Two minutes with any one of the Pope/Archbishop of Canterbury/Dalai Lama/the Chief Rabbi/any Ayatollah/Mother friggin' Teresa and each and every one of 'em would tell you to piss off. And quite right too. It's high time you toddled off (permanently, preferably) and examined your conscience. Hows about starting with "I'm an incredibly thick, lazy bastard who disses honest and hard-working scientists because some wanker on some creationist website tells me to." Once you've sorted that out, perhaps you'll get off your knees and start to think for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 01:25 AM

Err. No pete.

You just put that I don't think scientists can't be influenced by their research. Of course they can but that is as humans not scientists. When a key plank of my doctoral research was refined after scrutiny, I was on the viva panel that agreed with the subsequent research and awarded the degree. I can't say I wasn't personally deflated, but I was professionally delighted with the work that updated my own. I don't enjoy music as an engineer or interfere in The NHS as a person who enjoys skiing. Mrs Musket is about as religious as I am but her hobby is church bell ringing.

As scientists people are objective. As humans they are precious, subjective and well human. As creationist scientists they are disingenuous to say the least and an oxymoron to be literal.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 02:51 AM

"Shim...What makes you think that a persons faith has any bearing on their political allegiance?"

Now there's a low blow out of left (excuse the pun) field! Of course there are left-wing Christians ... did I say that there weren't? Nevertheless, "Creationism" seems to be associated with North American (Christian) religious fundamentalists who tend to be closely associated with right-wing politics. Perhaps, Ake, you might want to provide some examples of left-wing Creationists ... ?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 03:04 AM

it took 3 pages on the web to find the long list of creation scientists

Disingenuous. Firstly please note that my link specifically refers to scientists who became creationists after studying the evidence. Secondly my perfectly standard Google search brought this up, as second entry, followed by lots of others giving lists of scientists who believe in the biblical creation.

Were these purposely discounted because they contain such gems as Many historians (of many different religious persuasions—including atheistic) have shown that modern science started to flourish only in largely Christian Europe and no present day 'long-agers' are included intentionally, because they should know better.? I could go on but sampling the links I found made me ill thinking about the fact that this is what they are teaching children as truth.

And fundamentalist Christians will accuse me of fallacious argument!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 05:00 AM

Pete wrote

so how do you define those terms, grishka?
I believe there is a good definition by kerkut, of the general theory of evolution , which is probably known to you?.

I shall not argue about definitions; as I wrote, various differing ones are about. My point is that scientists should not be evolutionists in the sense of the definition I gave; creationists are often seen as polemically identifying evolution theory with that kind of "evolutionism" or Darwinism. Note also that some of Darwin's ideas are no longer part of modern evolution theory.

(Gerald A. Kerkut [1927-2004] was a physiologist who also tried to find evidence against "macroevolution". Note that his work is of no help at all to Bible literalists.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 05:18 AM

Well Shim, a few years ago, all Christians were "creationists"....the meaning of words seem to evolve or devolve....take "marriage" for example.

I think all Christians who are sincere have a belief in "god the creator".....and its up to us to put our own interpretation on it....if its any of our business.

I was ridiculed some weeks ago for saying that "the more we learn about the nature of the universe, the less we understand it or how it came into being."
I think its well beyond the understanding of such a basic species as humanity, to understand the origin of the universe so I hesitate to laugh at believers in a higher power.
The idea that the universe may go on for ever, is incomprehensible to me. It makes any known scientific theory redundant?

I don't get the pun Shim, I can assure you that I am neither a member of any organised religion, nor a paper cut out socialist....I have the scars to prove it...   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 05:51 AM

I was ridiculed some weeks ago for saying that "the more we learn about the nature of the universe, the less we understand it or how it came into being."

You were ridiculed because this is a shallow, thoughtless and defeatist remark. The more we study the nature of the universe, the closer we get to a more intimate understanding of it or how it came into being. That's why we have our brains. But the more we look, the more we discover previously-unsuspected complexities in the story. That is what is so delicious about science, and why your dismal statement is so vacuous.

Jasper Carrott was tootling along the motorway at 70 with his old mum in the passenger seat. A souped-up car doing 140 zoomed past them in the fast lane. Mother shook her head disdainfully and remarked "He won't get there any quicker like that!" Glancing at her with knitted brow, Jasper retorted "Oh yes he will!"

Your remark reminds me of Jasper's mother, though I doubt that you're a quarter as charming as her.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 05:54 AM

The idea that the universe may go on for ever, is incomprehensible to me. It makes any known scientific theory redundant?

And whose idea is this, by the way?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 06:15 AM

"I know that their light is coming to us from before a creation date, but their are models that address this, and I understand that evolutionary ideas also have problems fitting it in also."

What models? I'd be very interested to know. Looking on creationist websites the arguments seem to centre on the premise that time acted differently during creation week and hence light had time to travel billions of light years . . .

But there's a contradiction here. If the literalists say Genesis is a true account of creation then it is unequivocally happening on a timescale we understand, days and nights. There is no suggestion anywhere that time worked differently in different part of the universe. To add that in is a lie, plain and simple.

So either the extremists don't literally believe what some bloke wrote in the Bible 2k years ago or they're falsifying, embellishing, deceiving and passing speculation off as 'fact' (as it is the word of god), either way a rather appalling situation for those purporting to seek 'the truth'. Nasty, evil people.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 07:02 AM

Dismal. Yeah, I like that. Sums up rejection of discovery perfectly.

I recall Jasper Carrot speaking of his mother's driving years ago. He said something along the lines of "pulled the choke out. Hung her handbag from it..." Ah. Takes me back.

I'm presently reading "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre. Whilst concentrating on medical matters, the ethos reminds me of some of our deluded brethren.




10/10 to the worm by the way. Managing to slip the word "marriage" in the first sentence of an unrelated reply to a question. And you all thought he was as thick as pigshit....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 08:02 AM

It just gets better!! Gnomet just legged himself up again!!

From my degree research on mythology Gnomes and Dwarfs are both mythical creatures.

Gnomes originated in the Renaissance period; dwarfs are mythical characters originating from Norse mythology.
As that fraud should know if he has another brain cell, The term "gnomes" was first introduced by a Renaissance physician named Paracelsus; the word "dwarf" was first introduced in Norse mythology in the Prose Edda which was written by Snorri Sturluson and the Poetic Edda.

As per mythology, gnomes were creatures that were very reluctant in interacting with humans;unlike the rank imposter gnomet. They were earth dwellers and could easily move through the earth as humans moved through the air.

As we can see, one of the differences between a gnome and a dwarf is that a dwarf is very wise, so that lets the fraud and imposter out straight away..so really I was being complimentary to the little chap and that would never do..would it?
Just face it bone head,you are not in my league.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 08:06 AM

Nothing mythical about dwarfism.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 08:42 AM

I think that it is time that we reminded ourselves that this whole debate boils down to belief vs evidence. Creationists choose to believe that the Bible expresses the literal truth about origins of the Earth and the living things which inhabit it. They also choose to believe in an immaterial, ineffable Creator and refuse to believe, or are unable to believe, that the Universe and life on Earth arose spontaneously as a result of natural processes. They are, of course, entitled to believe anything they like - but until they can produce evidence to support their beliefs, they cannot call themselves 'scientists' (whatever their academic qualifications may be!). And to a true scientist, the possible existence of an immaterial, ineffable Creator is an irresistible challenge! No real scientist is going to stand there shuffling his/her feet mumbling piously about God being "unknowable"!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 08:49 AM

Nothing mythical about contests to see how far you can chuck 'em either.

Worksop Rugby Club circa 1981.

3' 8" to furthest part of body from the 'ocky. That was before my back was held together with pins to be fair. Our first team tight head prop threw the poor bugger beyond the mattress onto the Lino in the bar area. I'll never forget how the "ball" got up, dusted himself down and casually punched him in the nuts. Took four of us to prevent a retaliation.

Didn't have that event the following year. Mind you the dance of the flaming arsehole remained a popular attraction.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 09:03 AM

As far as I can see Shim, nobody can prove anything about the origin of the universe.
From Cornell University via Google.

"First, the Universe might have what we call positive curvature like a sphere. In this case, the Universe is called "closed" and it has a finite size but without a boundary, just like a balloon. In a closed Universe, you could, in principle, fly a spaceship far enough in one direction and get back to where you started from.

The second possibility is that the Universe is flat. This kind of Universe can be imagined by cutting out a piece of a balloon material and stretching it with your hands. The surface of the material is flat and not curved. You can expand and contract it by tugging on either end. Flat Universes are infinite in extent and have no boundaries.

Finally, the Universe might be "open" or have negative curvature. Such Universes are also infinite in spatial extent and have no boundaries.

Thus whatever be the shape of the Universe, there is nothing called a boundary and hence nothing called the edge or end of the Universe."

It is all "educated guesswork", and beyond our comprehension, and likely to remain so until humanity becomes extinct in say, a couple of hundred years?

Would we not be better concentrating on ways to make life on earth sustainable? This problem should be within our mental capacity, all we need is the will, and possibly a little bit of "faith".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 09:32 AM

"Would we not be better concentrating on ways to make life on earth sustainable?

We already understand how to do that in broad terms, but simply don't bother. Whilst the planet is exploited for the benefit of a wealthy few then it shall remain thus I imagine.

In the meantime, those of us who can continue to advance our understanding to the best of our abilities and for the common good. In one way or another all science contributes to a wider understanding of us, the planet and the universe and this knowledge often finds applications in areas quite different from the fields the researchers who found them are working in.

It's this interconnectedness of science that seems to be beyond the grasp of the fundamentalists. They can't isolate one area of study as being 'wrong' without condemning other areas as also being 'wrong' by implication. In my area of research, palaeontology we use a whole suite of cross-disciplinary techniques to study ancient life including particle accelerators and other advanced machines used by physicists to explore the very particles the universe is made of (they can help us decode the colour of dinosaur feathers, for example).

They could deny the lot (and the most extreme like Pete do, as he types on his computer), but the truth is that attitude would signify that nothing has been learnt in the past 300 years and if these people want to act like medieval peasants pissing themselves at the thought of the supernatural then good for them, just don't prevent it has any scientific validity and is should have parity when being taught to our children.

These people are the Christian equivalent of the Taliban, and should be treated with the same disdain, for they are as evil, ignorant and regressive.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 10:00 AM

I don't agree Stu, primitive societies sustained themselves for thousands of years, using only survival instinct and faith in their gods. Our present society is heading for destruction, despite, or perhaps because of our vastly superior knowledge of science.

All "progress" in any field has unexpected consequences.
Perhaps we would have a healthier planet without science?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 10:42 AM

you are not in my league.

Thank heavens for that. I would hate to be that far back in the evolutionary game...

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 01:09 PM

"Perhaps we would have a healthier planet without science?"

Look back at the child mortality, deaths in childbirth, life expectancy and disease vulnerability of just one hundred years ago, and you might come to realise the inanity of that statement.

At least in that world you would have to be honest about your homophobia.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 01:48 PM

The planet itself WAS more healthy.
No polluted rivers.
No plastic in the oceans.
No CFC induced ozone holes.
No warming.
No threatened species.
No acid rain poisoned lakes.
No deforestation.............

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 02:18 PM

It's sad to relate that since our ancestors migrated out of Africa, somewhere between 100,000 and 80,000 years ago, we have had an increasingly catastrophic impact on the planet's biodiversity. Our fire and tool using, upright ape ancestors caused havoc, wiping out the megafauna (and much else) on five continents. In northern Eurasia, for example, it took us a while to adapt to the region's dry, frigid climate but once we had done so we wiped out the mammoths, woolly rhinos, bison, musk oxen, giant elks and horses which lived there, devastating the region's ecology in the process. Soon after, humans arrived in North America - which promptly lost 34 genera of large mammals, followed by South America which lost 50. Today we're just mopping up what's left. So much for the 'ecological wisdom' of 'primitive', pre-technological people!

Nevertheless, today we are waging this on-going war against Nature with a ferocity that our ancestors could only have dreamed of. The pace of destruction has accelerated over the past few centuries as our populations have grown ever larger and our technologies ever more sophisticated. We have drenched the land with poisons and dug up the toxic heavy metals that ancient bacteria had buried and spread them around again. Most dangerous of all we have extracted vast quantities of fossil carbon from the Earth's crust and burned it to form CO2 - resulting in increasing climate instability.

The difference between us and our distant ancestors is that SCIENCE has given us a much better and deeper understanding of our relation to the planet and what we are capable of doing to it. It is very unfortunate that up to now the genius of our species has been so lacking in wisdom that we are very close to destroying the complex web of life that evolution has created around us. There is absolutely no doubt that if we succeed in this 'grand project' we will inevitably destroy ourselves. But it won't be scientists who will be responsible for this suicidal destruction - don't shoot the messengers!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 02:43 PM

science has provided many benefits, but also weapons of mass destruction, so I guess it,s a mixed bag.
either way that has little to do with origins science, which by its very nature is not subject to the scientific method of observation, testability , repeatability except in a much more limited sense.
it does of course suit the evolutionist to equate both aspects, as if one is unscientific if they don't evolutionism.
stu objects to the faith of "medieval peasants" being taught to our children. well we object to fanciful ideas of evolutionism being taught as though it were proven scientific fact.

creation, shimrod, was standard Christian teaching long before US politics. it is a weak argument anyway. is something wrong, because YOU object to the politics of the scientist?!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 02:43 PM

science has provided many benefits, but also weapons of mass destruction, so I guess it,s a mixed bag.
either way that has little to do with origins science, which by its very nature is not subject to the scientific method of observation, testability , repeatability except in a much more limited sense.
it does of course suit the evolutionist to equate both aspects, as if one is unscientific if they don't evolutionism.
stu objects to the faith of "medieval peasants" being taught to our children. well we object to fanciful ideas of evolutionism being taught as though it were proven scientific fact.

creation, shimrod, was standard Christian teaching long before US politics. it is a weak argument anyway. is something wrong, because YOU object to the politics of the scientist?!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 03:01 PM

kerkut defines the general theory of evolution as-

the theory that all living forms in the world have arisen from a single source, which itself came from an inorganic form.

anyone disagree with this definition?

I have little inclination to respond to the more abusive posts. if perchance such want a reply, try again without the badmouthing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 04:32 PM

Oh come on, pete! What I'm saying is that if a person insists on seeing the world through the eyes of a set of rigid, unchanging beliefs and faith, they can't be a scientist. Science is not a rigid set of beliefs but an open-minded, open-ended philosophical system based on the accumulation and analysis of evidence. Today's scientific concensus, on any particular subject, could be overthrown tomorrow if enough convincing evidence is gathered. I suspect that what you and your creationist chums object to is that there is no convincing evidence available to support either the biblical account of creation or the existence of God.

As for the politics of contemporary creationists, well I couldn't put it better than Stu did above:

"These people are the Christian equivalent of the Taliban, and should be treated with the same disdain, for they are as evil, ignorant and regressive." Hear, hear!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 06:45 PM

primitive societies sustained themselves for thousands of years, using only survival instinct and faith in their gods. Our present society is heading for destruction, despite, or perhaps because of our vastly superior knowledge of science.

Two assertions here, each one without a smidgeon of evidence to back it up. Just like all this bloke's other assertions really. Pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 06:48 PM

I sort of agree with most of your last post Shim.

But science does not do its work altruistically, they are not simply "messengers". Today, profit drives science.....the money plot poisons everything.
Sincere "faith" on the other hand damages no thing or person.....but the organisation of "faith" may.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 07:01 PM

science has provided many benefits, but also weapons of mass destruction, so I guess it,s a mixed bag.

Yes, and science "provided" rat poison, dynamite, cyanide ampoules, Enigma machines, iPads... No, science bloody didn't! Science is neutral, and proudly so. What produces all those good and bad things is the application of science. Einstein lamented the misuse of his science in the making of nuclear weapons, but he knew that nuclear weapons were not his fault. So cut out that particularly nasty slice of dishonesty, if you don't mind. Examine your rotten conscience for once.

either way that has little to do with origins science, which by its very nature is not subject to the scientific method of observation, testability , repeatability except in a much more limited sense.

It is subject to exactly the same rigour as any other science. Your problem is that you do not understand "origins science" (Christ on a bloody bike), nor, actually, do you understand science at all.

it does of course suit the evolutionist to equate both aspects, as if one is unscientific if they don't evolutionism.

When you have a minute, perhaps you could entertain us all by telling us what the bloody hell you're on about.

stu objects to the faith of "medieval peasants" being taught to our children. well we object to fanciful ideas of evolutionism being taught as though it were proven scientific fact.

No-one teaches any scientific theory as if it was "proven fact". You know, we do try to tell you this, ad nauseam, but you don't hear us. One other thing: you have no evidence for the Godly myth-as-truth you teach to children, whether now or in medieval times. We have evidence for evolution by the truckload. Your dishonest attempt at equivalence will catch you out every time, you nasty little man.

creation, shimrod, was standard Christian teaching long before US politics.

We don't give a shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 07:09 PM

Sincere "faith" on the other hand damages no thing or person

Sincere faith has led to the persecution of millions of people, the subjugation of women, the repression of gay people, holy wars and the mass indoctrination of children. Keep your bloody faith strictly to yourself and keep it away from everyone else, have the humility to accept that what you have is faith without evidence, and I'm right with you. But one mention to anyone else that your faith is a good thing that they should consider and you're evil and you are doing harm.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 07:51 AM

" primitive societies sustained themselves for thousands of years, using only survival instinct and faith in their gods. Our present society is heading for destruction, despite, or perhaps because of our vastly superior knowledge of science."

Primitive societies existed (and still do here and there) because they understand that human beings are part of the natural world, a part of an ecosystem that they need to respect and sustain in order to survive; a way of living that runs contrary to the teachings of the Abrahamic religions, which says:

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

This nasty, ignorant and downright evil little tract absolves those with less integrity and gumption than normal of the responsibility of caring for the earth: "God says it was alright". Of course, the fact we're all brought up and raised largely as Christians/Muslims/Jews of some sort means that this point of view is entrenched in our culture; that has nothing to do with science.

"Perhaps we would have a healthier planet without science?"

Science is a system for discovering the fundamental truth of the nature of things, and it seeks to understand and enlighten. How that knowledge is used is a social question rather than a scientific one, and responsibility for forming policy based on science and establish commercial value to the results of scientific discovery is the realm of politicians, business people and the rest of us (although inequality robs most of us of any meaningful influence over policy and business).

As scientists we know the planet is in deep trouble as we are living through a mass extinction of catastrophic proportions, climate change is probably not going to be stopped and we are polluting our seas and clearing them of fish at a rate that means the oceans are fundamentally changing in nature (which is more frightening than the melting of the ice caps by some degree). Science isn't responsible for this because it advances technology; this situation has arisen because of an unsustainable economic system and politicians and big business taking advantage of their position. It's their lack of responsibility that will kill millions in the Bangladesh delta and the deserts of Africa, not scientists.

"which by its very nature is not subject to the scientific method of observation, testability, repeatability except in a much more limited sense.

Boring. The defining characteristic of science is that it is testable and falsifiable, and evolutionary theory certainly comes into this, as do many, many other aspects of science such as astrophysics and pure maths (no-one has ever directly observed the gas giant Kepler-87b orbiting it's home star, but we know it's there, know it's mass and its orbital period - about 114 days). But even though observation and repeatability do of course play a role in science, it seems that creationists do not apply these techniques to their own beliefs: creationist dogma crumbles if you try to observe it in action, it can't be repeated and it is not testable in the slightest. The maker remains conspicuous by their absence.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 09:15 AM

Thank you for elaborating, Stu. It was past my bedtime! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 09:53 AM

Sincere "faith" on the other hand damages no thing or person

I dunno whether to laugh or cry!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 10:18 AM

>>"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

This nasty, ignorant and downright evil little tract absolves those with less integrity and gumption than normal of the responsibility of caring for the earth: "God says it was alright". Of course, the fact we're all brought up and raised largely as Christians/Muslims/Jews of some sort means that this point of view is entrenched in our culture; that has nothing to do with science.<<<


A lot of Christian today take this as both a blessing and a responsibility to care for the planet and its creatures. If we have "dominion" over for instance blue whales, if they go extinct, it is on us.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 11:51 AM

"A lot of Christian today take this as both a blessing and a responsibility to care for the planet and its creatures. If we have "dominion" over for instance blue whales, if they go extinct, it is on us."

How can we have "dominion" over any living thing, apart from deciding whether we kill it or rob it of its place to live? We don't own them, you can't won a life (whatever the uber-capitalists think). The word is defined as "supreme authority" or "absolute ownership" by Miriam-Webster and there is little doubt that this is the context used in the Bible, as previously God orders man to "subdue it" (the earth) i.e. do with it as thou wilt. Little room for interpretation there.

I dunno. I don't mean to tread on the faith of most people, it's just the extremists that give such cause for concern as they attempt to impose their views on us all. Those that would teach creationism as science are indistinguishable in nature from those that practice female circumcision, ban pop music and shoot kids in the head for daring to say they should be allowed to go to school. There's an barely concealed violence about their manner and lack of tolerance that makes me think they are beyond the rules that the rest of us agree to abide by. I get from them a sense of arrogance and ignorance that is unsettling to say the least, as they fear diversity and free thought and that is truly frightening, and never ends well.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 11:52 AM

If you have dominion over a blue whale, you have blubber to last you a long time I suppose.

Hello sailor !

Interesting time for you to rejoin the crèche. We seem to have suspended the bingo messiah based true path and are getting deep and meaningful over creationism and other such nonsense.

Talking of nonsense... When you say a lot of Christians, do you mean you feel a responsibility to care and hope others do as Christians, or do you think the normal altruistic desire to care for the planet is a Christian thing and it is weird coincidence that some of us rational people care also?

Always fascinated to hear of how you have to be superstitious in order to do good. Just off to get the panda burgers into the bottom oven. They need to cook slowly and soak up the rhinoceros horn sauce.   Tell you what though, trying to get a blue whale into an aga top oven isn't easy. Whack its arse with the oven paddle though and you stand a sporting chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 01:21 PM

Plenty of blubbering from Musket.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 01:38 PM

"Those that would teach creationism as science are indistinguishable in nature from those that practice female circumcision, ban pop music and shoot kids in the head for daring to say they should be allowed to go to school. "


Somewhere in there, is the crux of my objection to Atheistic Dogmatism as practiced by Mr. Shaw and "Musket."

The same in nature, perhaps, but in consequence? A bullet to the head or the removal of sex organs is not the same as planting an idea that can be easily refuted and debated with access to the Internet.

So lumping the worst and most violent with all religious people is ignorant and wrong. I'm not talking about you Stu. You clearly are not trying to do that.

I try to see the wisdom in the Bible and guide myself by it.

Dominion: The word is defined as "supreme authority" or "absolute ownership" by Miriam-Webster.

The human race does have "supreme authority" over species like blue whales. We can preserve them or exterminate them at will. I'm not stating this as a moral argument but as a practical fact. A wolf kills Bambi's mom, it has no moral obligation. A human hunter kills a doe, he has the knowledge of good an evil and must live with what he has done. It is likewise with any issue involved with "dominion" over the Earth, recycling, building, fuel extraction and consumption. You name it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 02:22 PM

I see Barnacle balls is back in the fray with his usual semi digested pseudo intellectual cut and paste crapola.

This post is now getting even more tedious..in the light of this
I need to ask you "clever" people two questions, count 'em, two questions.

Collectively you seem to have all the answers:
1. then why oh why is this world in such a state of insufferable chaos, pain, famine, inequality of opportunity, were the division of wealth is massive?

2.Why are you lot are sat on your judgmental smug arses and doing nowt about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 06:14 PM

I dunno. I don't mean to tread on the faith of most people, it's just the extremists that give such cause for concern as they attempt to impose their views on us all. Those that would teach creationism as science are indistinguishable in nature from those that practice female circumcision, ban pop music and shoot kids in the head for daring to say they should be allowed to go to school. There's an barely concealed violence about their manner and lack of tolerance that makes me think they are beyond the rules that the rest of us agree to abide by. I get from them a sense of arrogance and ignorance that is unsettling to say the least, as they fear diversity and free thought and that is truly frightening, and never ends well.

Spot on, Stu. Best post in the thread by a country mile. The most dangerous and nasty people in the world are those who base their convictions on the kind of blind ignorance passed down to them by their particular traditions, and who studiously ignore evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 06:17 PM

"Atheistic Dogmatism"

What the hell is that, Wacko? Care to define?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 06:25 PM

well, stu, I suppose you make a point in saying that creation is not repeatable in the sense of beginnings.
that is sort of parallel to your faith that the GTE happened as per kerkut above. [pleased no one had a problem with that].
however, as the theist posits a creator, there is a logical source to creation. shimrod may keep evading that by his "who made..etc....",and we could argue as to the being of the creator, or if he needed a creator, but fact remains that there is no evidence for abiogenesis - it is a faith position, as is the assertion ,that science is closing in on the "problem".
cause and effect, was, I would have thought pretty basic, as is, there was no cause, and no laws of science, if there was ever a point when there was absolutely nothing. evolutionists further assert that scientific law [ie- myriad observations of biogenesis] was broken.
then you have the cheek to mock believers for having faith.
and that is just the genesis [pun intended!] of your theory before getting to further change in scientific norms to accommodate your story.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 07:55 PM

however, as the theist posits a creator, there is a logical source to creation.

There certainly is not. Logic has to take a permanent back seat in creationist dogma, old chap. If you don't agree, stop faffing around and tell us your logical basis for the existence of God. Come along, we're waiting...

shimrod may keep evading that by his "who made..etc....",and we could argue as to the being of the creator, or if he needed a creator

Typical pete dishonesty (how the hell do you live with your conscience?) The person who is doing the evading is you. Please answer: where did your God come from? It's a child's question but it's the most profound question ever to confront religion, and, if you can't answer it, you're stuffed. It really is as simple as that. Stop accusing other people of evasion and answer that question. Piss or get off the pot.

but fact remains that there is no evidence for abiogenesis

The evidence for what you call abiogenesis (I don't need to call it that, but hey) is all around you, in its diversity, abundance and beauty. The Earth was a fireball that became the home for life. That's a wonderful notion and you are not going to spoil it with your banal notions of a big bearded all-seeing bloke (where was his missus?) who you can't explain mucking in to make it all.

Actually, where was his missus? Girls??? I'd be nowhere without the missus. What makes God so bloody special? Shall there be womanly times, or shall we die? Franny??

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 01:25 AM

Hello Sailor!

First blue whales then dogs. Reckons he's ruddy Attenborough now. Mind you, he still seems to be searching for that elusive athiest. Buggered if I can help him there.

I was under the impression, and I stand to be corrected, that the term "contemplating the navel" meant questioning the God idea. On the basis of if we are in his image, does he have a belly button? No. Sorry Jerk. Using the bible for inspiration doesn't exactly get off to a flying start. You see, the problem is, the first line is bollocks for starters and I'm afraid it goes downhill after that.

The first line of Lord of the Rings is far more jolly and doesn't stretch the imagination till later when you get a bloke who is good at conjuring tricks and comes back from the dead.   



Oh.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 03:22 AM

" ... as the theist posits a creator, there is a logical source to creation. shimrod may keep evading that by his "who made..etc....",and we could argue as to the being of the creator, or if he needed a creator, ..."

All man-made things are, of course, by definition, created by someone - but it doesn't LOGICALLY follow that everything, in general, was created by someone.

The source of everything that is not man-made is still a mystery but there is not a shred of evidence that it was created by some "immaterial", ineffable super-being. And if you have evidence for the existence of such a super-being, pete, let's be having it! Oh yes, and where did the super-being come from etc., etc., etc.? That's not being evasive, that's just asking some LOGICAL questions!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 04:09 AM

I was in the neonatal unit at the hospital yesterday, and a rather sad event happened, as it does occasionally.

I pitied the chaplain who thought he would comfort the parents by speaking of "God's will."

Religion can be a comfort if you are in the groove already, but it sure rings hollow for Normal people.......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 04:28 AM

I stand to be corrected, that the term "contemplating the navel" meant questioning the God idea

Always happy to correct you Musket.
The practise is an aid to meditation, used in Yoga and Hinduism.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 04:34 AM

Obviously, we can't find out whether God has a belly button from doing yoga then.

You can get a hernia from doing it I suppose......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 04:38 AM

"however, as the theist posits a creator, there is a logical source to creation."

Because someone suggests something doesn't make it a hypothesis, let alone a theory. If you can't test it, it's a myth and nothing to do with science. How do we test the theist's assumption? We can't, as he can't point us to any evidence. This is not science, and never will be.

"for abiogenesis - it is a faith position, as is the assertion ,that science is closing in on the "problem".",/i>

Aren't Christians supposed to be honest? This statement is so ludicrously wrong and misrepresentative of my position it is nothing less than a downright lie. Science is not faith. End of. It is a system of philosophy and enquiry. This is exactly what I mean about about a sort of aggression that knows no rules or bounds, there's a nasty subtext of attempting to diminish someone through misrepresentation.


"then you have the cheek to mock believers for having faith.

More barefaced lies. I'm expressing concern over the literalist, extremist elements of Christianity who pursue a rather threatening tone when promoting (but not actually debating) their dogma. People who don't interpret, but take the bible literally.

I have no problem at all with most people of faith, in fact I love the diversity of faiths in the world, and we can learn from them if even if we don't subscribe to them. What bothers me is the extremist elements who exclude all but their own faiths from being taught, and equate faith with science as they are unable to comprehend (or face) a world that makes them question their faith closely.

Creationists, any number of violent faith-based organisations etc. are all of the same ilk.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 04:06 PM

It is with the deepest regret that I have to report the demise of sanity on mudcat.

From a perfect reasonable thread about "militant atheism has become a religion p" this has become hijacked by a load of no nothing, ball scratching, swinging dick bollocks and bollixes, with their cut and paste thread creationist liberal with a small"l" diversity posts.

I do say this with conviction because, if someone suggests something doesn't make it a hypothesis, let alone a theory. If you can't test it, it's a myth and nothing to do with science.

How do we test the theorist's assumption? We can't, as the ginger hypothesis calligraphy penis heads can't point us to any evidence. This is not science, and never will be.

The foolish silly people, ball scratching ,ginger cake eating prognosis positioning hominids- and it is a prognosis position, as is the assertion and not a position that science is closing in on the "problem"..Ah..not so!! seaman staynes, shaw, big baby wizzjet would probably agree with you, but not I...Crayons and fish smelling inflatable bag women are on there way you saddos. have a really nice sad day, you here..or not?xxxxxx

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 06:21 PM

stu and shimrod are trying to charge me with dishonesty when I say that their's is a faith position.
not a shred of evidence for a creator, say they, when there is not a shred of evidence that something popped into existence when there was [supposedly] absolutely nothing before.
it's the biggest creation myth around.
it does not even have the benefit of any kind of first cause.
it IS ACCEPTED BY FAITH, whatever scientific sounding spin they put on it.
if you think it can happen - show us your evidence.
in the meantime ,I don't see anything illogical about saying that , anything that has a beginning, must have a sufficient cause.
that ,admittedly does not prove there is an eternal creator but sure seems a lot more logical than it all came from nothing via no one!.

and if you want to go down the path of equating creation Christians with dangerous evil, I am more than happy to remind you of the evil of some Darwin believers in recent history.
and on what basis do you call something evil. was, nt it dawkins who said that there was,nt good or evil, just blind pitiless indifference.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 06:51 PM

We hear you all right, bonkeresss conkeress, and I was going to nominate you for poster of the year until I read the bit about fish-smelling inflatable bag women. Almost put me right off of me fish supper, did that. Are you a scorned and defeated lesbian, by any chance? Just askin'...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 06:53 PM

You're struggling like mad, pete, and how good it is to see. You must be one very unhappy man.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 08:08 PM

"first cause". That's a joke, right Pete?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 01:34 AM

Match abandoned. Waterlogged pitch.

Bookies not returning stakes though. Act of God apparently.

See? William Hill appear to have evidence that supports pete's position. In the meantime the rest of us trudge home in the wet and windy weather.

Is there a God? If there is, he seems to support Wigan.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 03:08 AM

I insist that my current support for the 'something from nothing', Big Bang theory is NOT a "faith" position. I would change my allegiance like a shot if evidence for a different origin for the Universe became available. But if that evidence pointed towards some sort of immaterial, ineffable super-being then I would want to know where that super-being came from, where he got his materials etc., etc., etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket again
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 04:21 AM

I recall mentioning in the very beginnings of the very original thread that Jerk infested us with that there is a fairly fundamental difference between faith and reality.

"Science" (to lump all observable theories together, sorry) is observing and finding the reason. Faith is dreaming up the reason and twisting observations to fit it.

I suppose it all boils down to whether you put your hypothesis at the beginning or the end of the process.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 04:25 AM

To borrow that phrase, ""History" is researching and finding the reason. Faith is dreaming up the reason and twisting observations to fit it."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 08:02 AM

"is something wrong, because YOU object to the politics of the scientist?!"

No! It is wrong because those so-called scientists (with no qualifications relating to evolution) are prostituting science for the purpose of perpetuating myths and fantasies based on a selective series of writings, altered and skewed numerous times to fit the agendas of people like yourself.

None of those writers had direct knowledge of Jesus (if he existed), so even their first account was largely hearsay and writings that didn't fit their agenda comfortably were discarded (the missing gospels).

Anybody who believes in YEC cannot by definition claim a scientific basis for that belief, but may still be an effective cancer researcher or similar.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 12:40 PM

Reading scripture and saying it must be true because of eminent desert dwelling peasants who wrote it.

Reading a few history accounts and saying it must be true because of the eminent newspaper hacks who wrote it.

zzzzzz

Piss off Keith, there's a good chap. A real Christian is in this debate, so no real need for a boutique Christian such as yourself. Mind you, he may be consistent but his cutting and pasting and defending what he found elsewhere sure rings a bell..

Blind pitiless indifference.... Reminds me of a few years ago sat in a city cafe on a Sunday morning waiting for my girlfriend and her mates to join me after bell ringing, watching the faithful in their best Sunday threads, crossing the road on the way to the cathedral to avoid the Big Issue guy and the old lady sat on her sleeping bag with her cupped hands.

I say pete, do you think the priests who shag young boys in their care do it in the name of their God or does Christianity embrace this blind pitiless indifference too?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 05:31 PM

pitiful response , musket. guilt by association . the priests who do such things are inconsistent with what they profess.
I would not suppose they were sincere believers , would you.
either way what they have done hardly disproves Christianity, still less that there is a creator.
and whats with the cut and paste talk? we all get our info from somewhere. I thought cut and paste was directly transferring passages from elsewhere. I am one finger typing, not doing anything tech.

someone above said something about what cant be tested is not scientific and a myth.
like I say - evolutionism is the biggest myth around .

troubadour - how would you know if creation scientists have qualification in evolutionism or not. have you read their bios?
if you had, I don't think you would make such a blanket statement.
mind you, being dishonest must have an evolutionary benefit! but I will assume it was an honest mistake, at this stage.

ok shimrod, if you insist your belief in something from nothing via no one is not a faith position, you need to show us the evidence, either that it happened, or that it can happen.
and it better be better than steves, who seems to be saying that the evidence consists of the fact that we are here in this world?!
methinks he is the one struggling like mad.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 07:40 PM

Good heavens, pete, how "abrasive" you're becoming! I hope it means that you're getting so pissed off with us that you'll disappear, but hey, it's a free country!

As for this: I would not suppose they were sincere believers , would you

Well now, why wouldn't they be? Are you saying that you can't sincerely believe in God if you shag underage kids up the arse or make them fellate you and threaten them afterwards to keep it quiet? Wow, if so, this religion deal is something else! A helluva lot of priests must be atheists then! Know summat, pete? You're saying that devout religious guys can't be like that, thereby implying that only us heathens could indulge in such atrocities. You really are the most dishonest and insulting person I've come across in years. Shame on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 02:59 AM

"ok shimrod, if you insist your belief in something from nothing via no one is not a faith position, you need to show us the evidence, either that it happened, or that it can happen."

As I understand it the current evidence for "something from nothing" comes from a study of the cosmic microwave background radiation (Google it, pete, and then you'll know as much as I know). And something that you seem unable to grasp is that I am not arguing from 'belief' - or much less, a position of 'faith' (perish the thought!) but I am quite happy to go along with the current scientific concensus. This may not be ideal but I don't have a degree in astrophysics.

Oh yes, and here's a thought. A few days ago you described your God as "immaterial" (i.e. having no substance) - so if He created the Universe, why doesn't that count as "something from nothing"?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 03:05 AM

I would not suppose they were sincere believers , would you


    Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
    Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
    Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
    Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
    Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
    Thou shalt not kill.
    Thou shalt not commit adultery.
    Thou shalt not steal.
    Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
    Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

So, Pete, how do all these sincere believers who kill, torture, maim, steal and break round about every one of the above in the name of their god measure up then?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 03:20 AM

I'll deal with the cut & paste bit.

Yes. Sometimes, in real debate, it may be pertinent to quote, but in support of your point, not being your point. You are lowering your debate technique to that of Keith A Hole of Hertford. He is the master of borrowing views and throwing his toys out of the pram when they are refuted. He cannot make his own view, being shallow, so he craves the comfort of repeating views he digs up off the internet.

You may be deluded pete, your outlook may be dangerous if enough shared it, but I have always assumed you to be able to support your ridiculous nonsense from your own mental process. If you don't, you end up as boorish as our resident apologist for the establishment.

I assume intelligent people quote in support, such as the above from the Gnomish one.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 04:37 AM

"So, Pete, how do all these sincere believers who kill, torture, maim, steal and break round about every one of the above in the name of their god measure up then?"

Well, of course, Dave, you, and I (and Steve and Musket) know that religion has never really ever been about peace, love and a big, beardy (immaterial) bloke in the sky creating stuff - it's really about social control. Centuries ago, some genius realised that you could manipulate people's fear of death and the uncertainties of life by convincing them that you could intervene on their behalf with some big, beardy bloke (or blokes) in the sky who controls everything. The genius realised that he was on the right path when people started respecting him, awarding him social status, giving him stuff and even allowing him to bugger their children - just for intoning mumbo-jumbo and spouting pious platitudes - a nice little earner!

As human history progressed, and society became a bit more rational, it got harder and harder for the church to hang on to its power so it had to start torturing people and burning them at the stake etc. Now, of course, science has shown the invented religious world view to be complete balderdash and so the church is losing even more of that power. Most established religions have realised that their day is done but the fundamentalist fascists refuse to be beaten and a few of their more deluded followers, like pete, keep on rooting for them. Still, could be worse, pete could be a follower of Islamo-fascism and spend his time blowing people up rather than just spouting nonsense on here!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 10:36 AM

"when there is not a shred of evidence that something popped into existence when there was [supposedly] absolutely nothing before."

I'm guessing this is a reference to the appearance of life on earth. As it happens there 'was plenty there before'. Complex organic molecules such as amino acids existed in some abundance prior to the appearance of life, and there are plenty of reason to believe that organic self-replicating molecules could develop. I'm not a biochemist though so I don't know the ins and outs. We will find out one day.

In terms of creationism though, it's that the extremists want to teach that theirs is the only correct faith, and that EVERYONE who either doesn't believe their violent, nasty viewpoint is wrong. That's all the followers of other faiths (however many that there are) and everyone who doesn't believe who is alive and who has ever lived in human history. End of.

This astounding arrogance makes the actions of these people, whether it's a right-wing literalist Christian in America or the UK trying to deny climate change whilst forcing others to learn their lowest-common-denominator Abrahamic dogma, shorn of any nuance and subtly it might possess or inspire amongst more considered people, or whether it's some adherent of jihad flying a plane into an office block because he can't think beyond the literal, violent verses of an ancient book written in less enlightened times by people form another culture in another part of the world. They can't see beyond the lies and ludicrous interpretations of some internet pedlar of ignorance, and they don't question anything unless they're pointed to it by some anonymous writer of hate.

Creationism is a part of this sorry little clade of extremist stupidity, a dogma that abandons reason for the sort of blind, unquestioning faith that eschews the more refined tenets of it's religion (the teachings of Jesus had moved on considerably from the old testament gorefest) and rather appeals to a certain type of disaffected person.

As I've said before, religion does play a role in society and in some cases there is plenty secular society can learn from religions, but that's mostly to do with how we treat and interact with our fellow human beings, and concentrates on tolerance, community and compassion for others; all concepts that the literalists and extremists have abandoned and seem to actively despise.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 11:08 AM

It's a bit like the American Christian groups who gave money and support to the Ugandan private members' bill in Uganda to make being gay illegal. They were pushing originally for the death sentence.

Are THEY sincere believers pete? After all, they claim to be doing it because God wills it. He must have sent them an email or something.........

Stu. With the best will in the world, I couldn't take any lessons from any religion about tolerance. It's anathema to them. Tolerance doesn't accord with obedience, and without obedience, no religion has a purpose, let alone a congregation.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 12:26 PM

"Stu. With the best will in the world, I couldn't take any lessons from any religion about tolerance."

I would say in their purest form many teachings are quite profound. I become involved in Tibetan Buddhism for a while, and also took an interest in Zen teachings and found both to be extremely, er, enlightening. I would say western medicine is some way behind these traditions i understanding how the mind works in some ways. The sermon on the mount is really quite a beautiful speech; how it's interpreted is highly individual but I would suggest that there is something in there for even the most hardened atheist (or creationist).

However, I was really talking in terms of engaging secular society in a way that means we rediscover wonder and awe in our lives, how we can learn from secular art and literature about how treat our fellow humans. This might mean taking some of the methods used by religion to impart wisdom and reinforced societal bonds, for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 01:12 PM

Can't argue. But the sermon on the mount well may have some thought provoking ideas for any Christians too. Especially the many who could cite but constantly fail to understand it.

The Western medicine approach is alive and kicking in such areas. Placebo has a 20% success rate......

I think I was sloppy saying religion, I should have said organisations that call themselves religions. Organised religion is based on being on the bus grinning through the windows at the pedestrians, always room on top for more.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 02:02 PM

What i find hard to deal with is some of you seventh day Adventist bollocks like stu and shimrod trying to charge some of our comrades with dishonesty.

It is very clear that when I say that theirs is a faith position.
not a shred of evidence for a creator, say they, when there is not a shred of evidence that something popped into existence when there was [supposedly] absolutely nothing before.That is some of the most fecked up thinking I have come across in many a long day.

Even jerk the sailor would agree it's the biggest creationist myth around.

It does not even have the benefit of any kind of first cause joined up thinking and it is blindly accepted by the nobheads as faith, whatever scientific sounding spin they put on it.

If you think it can happen - I would really appreciate it if you could show us your evidence.
Whilst we are awaiting the coming of some self congratulatory evidence.I don't see anything illogical about saying that , anything that has a beginning, must have a sufficient cause.
that ,admittedly does not prove there is an eternal creator but sure seems a lot more logical than it all came from nothing via no one even the prick gnomeyo!.

If you want to go down the path of equating creation Christians with dangerous evil, I am more than happy to remind you of the evil of the Thatcher followers and believers in recent history.
On what basis do you call something evil?. Was it the gross gobshite Cameron who said that there was,no good or evil, just blind pitiless indifference?.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 02:52 PM

Or could it have been we are all in this together?.. well if we are, comrades, its is about time you all got have your goddam knees and started doing some thing, instead of posting crap to each other on self congratulatory smug threads like this....WAKE UP YOU SET OF sad sacks

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 03:10 PM

But you are doing exactly the same yourself. Join the sad sack society.

Don't get too carried away with the profundity of the Sermon On The Mount. Jesus is alleged to have said some divinely wise things therein, but he also spouted some egregious bollocks as well, particularly concerening [sic: heheh], not worrying about the morrow and turning the other cheek.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll who is not a troll
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 03:26 PM

The last refuge of a gobshite shaw...quoting script from people/belief's you allegedly despise..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 04:15 PM

Point of order, Mr Chairman!

Just because pete and 'troll-de-roll' choose not to believe in something, doesn't mean that that thing is "illogical"!

'Believable' doesn't equate with 'logical' and 'unbelievable' isn't equivalent to 'illogical'.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 05:39 PM

shimrod -" ..count as something from nothing?"
not far off actually.
"by faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear" Hebrews 11 v 3.
so yes, something from nothing - via someone, namely God.
so you are quite happy to go along with the consensus! it is just as well the pioneers of science that didn't do that, or we would still think that rats arose from rubbish by spontaneous generation. now where have I heard something like that elsewhere.......
stu also admitted to not having an answer but seems to be assuming others have [ and of course I am only arguing from a very limited understanding]
seems to me that most scientists believe in evolutionism because most scientists believe in evolution!

ah musket, master of evading the point by going off topic.
not to mention a dose of denial, and mockery.
many of my quotes are by ,to illustrate the argument I make ,that the general theory of evolution is woefully lacking evidence.
whether that constitutes cut an paste don't much bother me, as i'm more concerned with Someone infinitely greater.

actually stu, I was referring not only to first life, but first anything.
and even if amino acids were around, they don't just happen to come together in the right combination, in luckily the right conditions to turn to proteins, and on and on....
someone compared it to millions of blind people simultaneously solving a rubic cube puzzle at the same time [quote from memory]
like I say- a faith position.
the rest of your post is only a rant, not worthy of your more reasoned responses.

shimrod - could this be a turnaround on your part?
not calling something illogical, because you don't believe in it!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 08:16 PM

The last refuge of a gobshite shaw...quoting script from people/belief's you allegedly despise..

But I didn't quote anything, sugar tits. As it happens, Jaysus said mucho that I agree with, so I don't at all despise what the man is alleged to have said (do note "alleged"). But I do disagree with several of Jaysus's SOTM points, bigtime. That's the great thing about us atheists. We can consider what people say from a neutral point without being scaredy-pants sycophants, which is the mark of true Christians, a spineless bunch if ever I saw 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 02:30 AM

The only people infinitely greater than me are those who have had the exalted position of donning the blue and white strip at Hillsborough. I'd happily have a pissing contest with anyone else.

No pete. You started this saying that when employees of Jesus fuck children they aren't doing it as Christians. I'd happily go along with that. But the inference that lacking superstition could lead to having such criminal tendencies wasn't very nice, was it?

The Christian groups in America bank rolling the Ugandan politicians to make being gay criminal. That was as Christians. Pushing for the death sentence? Yep. As Christians.

Offering nonsense such as YEC as an alternative to reality? At least wait till they are adults before offering lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 03:29 AM

"by faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear" Hebrews 11 v 3.

What?? Incomprehensible, pious sounding gobbledegook!

Anyway, pete, I'm willing to go along with the scientific consensus because I'm not a practising astrophysicist. Holding some sort of 'faith-based' position because I've read a few articles in 'New Scientist' and a few popular science paperbacks would be absurd! As far as I'm concerned, the jury is out on how the Universe came about - but there seems to be more evidence for a point source followed by expansion than anything else. I suppose there might be an outside chance (probability = 0.0000000000000 ... 0001%) that it was all created by some big beardy bloke in the sky - but there is no evidence for such an occurrence (a load of pious gobbledegook in an old book doesn't count as scientific evidence). And if that was the case, to the non-indoctrinated, enquiring mind, it raises more questions than it answers!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 10:20 AM

The Christian groups in America bank rolling the Ugandan politicians to make being gay criminal
That is very concerning.
Please give some details as I can not find any reference to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 10:31 AM

Just for you, as you usually accuse me of made up shit when you can't find things...

BBC news website - it's not difficult to find..

This is by no means the only reference. It was cited in the documentary Stepping Out the other month, Stonewall have information about the funding and come to think about it, I first read it, I think, in The Week, which is the only newspaper I subscribe to, for the digest rather than the stance.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 10:43 AM

I read the piece you linked to, but found nothing to support "Christian groups in America bank rolling the Ugandan politicians to make being gay criminal."

I have found many references to Western churches denouncing the bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 12:26 PM

Read the fucking thing. I particularly noticed the line "It's critics say the bill gas been pushed by some US evangelical Christians."

After that try your bleeding google. Funny that I saw reference to it on the telly in a documentary, in The Week, when Haigh was being questioned on The Today Programme.....

But you, man of the world and soooo clever, didn't notice it.



Did your church give you another medal for your blazer for defending Christian Horse shit? Problem is Keith, all your denials of naughty things being done in the name of your failed saviour don't make them go away. Nigerian pogroms using either religion as an excuse still go on, even after you call me a liar for seeing a report on the news.

pete has more credibility than you. And he's away with the fucking fairies.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 12:57 PM

The only people infinitely greater than me are those who have had the exalted position of donning the blue and white strip at Hillsborough.

Ah, I see that Liverpool now top the league. And, in the Championship, Burnley, team of Jimmy Mac and my youth, are doing rather well. Odd, could have sworn the Owls were in that division...oh, hang on, yes, there they are! Gosh, my eyes aren't as quick as they used to be at scanning big lists from top to bottom... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 03:03 PM

"It's critics say the bill gas been pushed by some US evangelical Christians."
Just those 12 words in the whole BBC article, and they do not justify your claim.
I did try googling.
Nothing.
Looks like you made it up Musket.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 04:56 PM

Was the sermon on the mount where he said "Blessed are the cheesemongers"?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Dec 13 - 07:24 PM

"Pants on fire" again Ian?

On this forum outright lying is frowned upon, proper sources are required not second hand hearsay.

You do however seem to have rather a lot of inside information from Stonewall.
When are they going to make their midnight visit to "the Croft"? Are they preparing a "Dodgy Dossier?".   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 13 - 10:08 PM

You know, when Mudcat shuts down for a day, all the threads die. I often hope at the time that certain threads won't be resurrected. My hopes are usually disappointed.

But Ian, one would think that you could come up with better proof than Its critics say the bill has been pushed by some US evangelical Christians.

I suppose that the statement is absolutely true. You're a critic of the bill, and you have alleged that it has been pushed by some US evangelical Christians.

And it's true that we do have a few evangelical Christians here in the US who are extremely anti-homosexual, so no doubt they've thrown in a buck or two to this campaign.

This is an assertion that I have heard many times, that it's US Christians who are somehow imposing this law on Uganda - but I have yet to see any real evidence that there is any significant support for this horrendous Ugandan legislation, in any country other than Uganda.

If there's proof of this, I'd certainly be concerned. But in the interest of fairness, I think that there should be proof of this allegation of significant foreign interference to force enactment of this legislation. From what I'm seen, the bill comes from within Uganda, not from foreign influences.

And from what I've been able to learn by interviewing Africans immigrants in the U.S. about it, it seems clear to me that the African taboos against homosexuality are longstanding and come from within Africa, not from Western Christian influences.

If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd really like to see it. But all I see are allegations.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 01:28 AM

If politicians took money from foreign interest groups to change policy, it would a huge issue in any country.
That would be the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 04:46 AM

I'll ignore Keith's comment about foreign influence. He says it all himself.

Joe. It happens. The politician proposing the private members bill is quoted as saying it is the Christian thing to do. He's a Christian by the way. In the BBC documentary Stepping Out the other month he told the interviewer Stephen Fry that he was financially supported by US Christian groups.

So.   

Is it a Christian decision? Some Christians say it is therefore it must be. If you say otherwise then demonstrate why it isn't.

Out of interest, I was always taught that anti homosexual taboos were mainly brought in by the missionaries and used the high prevalence as the reason the heathens needed saving.

Sorry but defending the indefensible on account of it being Christian isn't very err. Christian? As you can see, it clouds the issue to the point that little men such as Akenhateon get confused and think their criminal stance is somehow respectable. He can't help it, he possibly needs help.

But others can make rational conclusions. Keith has a right wing agenda so his mealy mouthed picking up on detail to thicken the fog is disgraceful but because the Ugandan fascist are making laws in the name of Jesus, let's not be too judgmental eh?

If I were a Ugandan person, I'd laugh hollow bellows at the term Merrry Xmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 05:09 AM

Funny how the BBC summary does not mention that explosive revelation, and other clips are supplied but not that one!
It is as if you made it up Musket.

"Episode 1 of 2

Duration: 1 hour

In the first of this two-part series, Stephen Fry reflects back on just how much has changed for gay people during his lifetime. He meets Elton John and David Furnish, the couple who inspired Stephen to be open about his sexuality as well as many others.

This episode, Stephen travels to Uganda, where the government is considering a new law that would make homosexuality a capital crime - putting gay people to death for their sexuality. Stephen meets the men and women targeted by this proposed law and finds out the impact it is already having on their lives.

Stephen also travels to the USA to explore 'reparative therapy', which claims to offer a 'cure' for being gay. Whilst in the states, he looks at how Hollywood deals with the gay issue by talking to Neil Patrick Harris, an openly gay man who continues to land leading roles."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 07:12 AM

Steven Fry is a lying drama queen, I have viewed some of his material and he never lets the truth intrude into his ideology.
Mr Fry, appears to have several psychological problems which will be obvious to anyone who is familiar with his professional history.

It must always be remembered that the media, of which Mr Fry is a leading figure, has a heavy pro homosexual, anti-religion bias, even mainstream news programmes are heavily biased in favour of "homosexual rights"
I do not agree with the criminalisation of homosexuals for their sexual behaviour, but to be specific, the Capital crime was for specific behaviour, not just for being a practicing homosexual.
We also have laws against certain sexual behaviour, like infecting someone with HIV without telling them of your status.
Uganda retains the death penalty for many crimes.

I am against the death penalty on principle, with perhaps one exception.....the rape or murder of tiny children, the people who commit such crimes are beyond redemption, and should be removed from society, to put them out of their misery...a kindness really.

Of course, Ian believes I should be removed from society for opposing Homosexual "marriage".....I suppose its all comparative and how strong ones political agenda is.....funny old world.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 07:29 AM

I do not agree with the criminalisation of homosexuals for their sexual behaviour

So, how do you propose that the compulsory testing of all homosexuals, that you advocate so strongly, is enforced then?

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 08:24 AM

Merry Christmas Dave!

Sorry, I should have explained, the "compulsion".....IF it should be required, would be associated with the eradication of the epidemic of HIV amongst male homosexuals, not about their sexual behaviour.
They would not be compelled to stop having sexual intercourse.

I am sure "compulsion" would not be necessary after male homosexuals accepted that their behaviour must be regulated, promiscuity rates cut, and a more responsible attitude towards their sexual conduct adopted.

The family structure amongst heterosexuals, regulates their sexual behaviour to reasonable levels
Social engineering, as in the mainstream acceptance of homosexuality, always has unexpected consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 08:38 AM

BTW The "opting out" policy mentioned earlier in this thread seems a reasonable start in addressing the problem.....a move in the right direction from the agencies......at last!

Do you have any thoughts at all on how this epidemic can be defeated, or are you in the "none of our business" camp?

It seems that all you do is try to be obstructive without putting forward any ideas on the subject.

The HIV virus does not appear to be a great supporter of "equality" or homosexual rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 10:41 AM

The worm isn't fit to lick the boots of Stephen Fry. Obviously Keith A Hole of Hertford sees the one liner for a series of documentaries and writes his opinion. He appears to do the same with "history" books. Perhaps you should google the script, including the interviews with the Christian promoting hate filled politicians like the one in question and his grateful support of Christian groups from The USA. Stephen Fry and his team dealt with that documentary in a nonpartisan way, tried to ensure all sides were heard and you know what? It turns out bigotry isn't nice. Strange I know, and I doubt homophobia will die out just yet, but we can live and hope.

Yeah worm, I do whatever it is.. I didn't get to the end it's post. Sorry.

By the way worm, let's regulate your life too. Shut the fuck up and crawl away would be a good start. Nice to see you support the death sentence too.

No such thing as homosexual rights. Rights of individuals, full stop. Your puerile interest in the bedroom affairs of others is as sleazy as it is voyeuristic.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 11:51 AM

Eyup Co bloody Messiah... Less of the blaspheming!   

You obviously don't quite get this faith lark do you? Just because Liverbloodypool are the top of the finance league doesn't mean they are the best. Firstly, you are about to lose the player who single handedly got you there. Secondly, having the most doesn't make you the best. Far more Muslims in the Middle East than Christians. Far more Buddhists further east still, yet each cult will claim theirs is the best.

The difference being, The Owls actually are... Straight up and without any doubt. After all, football is real, Jesus is just an excuse for controlling people. We have women referees, Christians just allow them to be the equivalent of linesmen. They have awful dry wafers, we have pies, real honest to goodness rats' coffins. Not to mention the Bovril.

Look, the true path needs heritage, and Sheffield Wednesday go back to 1867, far more historically credible than many religions.

Mind you, I do agree with the prophet Shankley on that score......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 01:11 PM

Excellent post full of exactly the kind of denial that makes messiahs so great! This religion lark is clearly doing you a power of good. It's helping me too, though you may have noticed that I have yet to proclaim my soft spot for Bury FC. Damn, I think I might just have.

By the way, ake, by homosexual "marriage" do you mean homosexual marriage?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 01:34 PM

Soft spot? That's what I feel for Sheffield United. Pity is a wide ranging emotion......

Regarding the worm, I tend to shorten it to marriage. Fascists were roundly defeated in the war my Dad fought in. That little bastard just goes to show, they made an impression on shallow fools. I genuinely hope that one day, prejudice and irrational hatred shall be dead. We can all dream I suppose...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 02:25 PM

"The worm isn't fit to lick the boots of Stephen Fry"


I paraphrase.......
YOU lick Fry's arse if you like Ian, "the worm's" not for boot-licking"... :0)

Never have been....never will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 02:49 PM

Steve, I put homosexual "marriage" in inverted commas, as I do not agree with this definition of marriage.

In my opinion, marriage is defined as one man, one woman, a secure base to bring up children and build an extended family structure.

We see society disintegrating around us and applaud the wreckage, our brainwashed, dumbed down populace are doing their best to prove Mrs Thatcher right.

"There is no such thing as society"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 03:02 PM

Many Christians are strongly prejudiced against homosexuality, and they say their religious beliefs support their condemnation of homosexuality. Many other Christians are very supportive of homosexuals, and there are organizations in many Christian churches to promote the rights and dignity of homosexuals. The biggest such organization in the US Catholic Church is Dignity. It has not always had an easy time with the Powers That Be, but the organization continues to thrive.

So, is the bigotry against homosexuals a Christian thing, or is it just that many Christians are bigoted against homosexuals? I think the latter is true, the former not. Rather than attack Christianity as the root of bigotry, I think it far better to attack the bigotry itself. If you do that, you'll find you have many Christian allies, who also believe in justice and tolerance.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 03:37 PM

Joe, in my part of the world and in very many others, most people, both Christian and secular see sex between people of the sex as a perversion. Is it "bigotry" to oppose this "perverted behaviour" being accepted into the church and integrated into the traditional marriage ceremony?
Do you not understand these Christians viewpoint, as you watch the church come under attack from secular "society"
Do you not understand what these "secularists" are really about? Do you really think they give a stuff about the marriage rights of a handful of homosexuals?

Your church is the real target, and I'm sorry to say well meaning folks like yourself are part of the problem.
If you and others like you don't start fighting back soon, a fully secular society is on the cards.
The church fulfils a great need in a huge proportion of humanity, if the church allows itself to be dragged like a sheep to the slaughter by what is politically fashionable, then these people are being abandoned, condemned to a life with no spiritual nutrition.

But like Pontius Pilate, your hands will be clean.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 03:49 PM

I'll go along with that Joe.

Snag is, you say it isn't a Christian thing. Other Christians say it is.

You can't both be right. They quote from the bible. Both Pope and Archbishop of Canterbury have views about being gay that don't sound like "nothing to do with anyone else."

Bigots pick up on this supposed credibility for their awful crusade. I can't help thinking church leaders realise this. That said, our resident small man claims he isn't religious. Although look how he grasps at what he thinks is religious support of his disgraceful bile.

Sorry Joe. I cannot and will not accept bigotry as a valid view. Everybody has a right to live without being judged. Just look up at what Akenhateon is saying and ask yourself if gay mudcat members deserve to have to read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Elmore
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 04:19 PM

Told my doctor I wanted a second opinion. He said "You're ugly too."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 06:36 PM

Joe, in my part of the world and in very many others, most people, both Christian and secular see sex between people of the sex as a perversion.

Really? And what part of your part of the world might that be, and where do your numbers come from? In my part of the world, a part of the world that couldn't possibly ever vote left-wing even if it had a dagger at its throat, most people don't give a flying fart about other people's private lives. That's the thing, innit, ake. Other people's private lives. I regard anyone who has a prurient or otherwise illegitimate interest in other people's private lives as a pervert. So that makes you a pervert. God, I hope I've never accidentally met you. I might have to disinfect myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 06:45 PM

Disinfect yourself?......Don't do it Steve, it could be fatal. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 06:51 PM

You know, when Mudcat shuts down for a day, all the threads die. I often hope at the time that certain threads won't be resurrected. My hopes are usually disappointed.

One has three options (four in your case):

(1) Ignore the thread.

(2) Lustily take on the wankers who annoy you so.

(3) Whinge about the thread.

You have chosen option three. That is by far the weakest and most undignified option. If all the people who purport to hate threads ignored the buggers therein, it would leave approximately two of us rattling uselessly around like dobbers in a biscuit tin. There is one forum, an offshoot of Grief 'n' Nipple, that has been abandoned by just about everyone because of the sad Canuckistani troll who now runs it. By our feet have we voted. I recommend the approach. His game is not worth our candle. Other methods will lead to blood pressure and angst in what is not the real world. It's like pub sessions. There's no money in it, so enjoy yourself, get out or go insane. There is always the choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 01:22 AM

I would tackle the epidemic by ensuring there is enough money for research into the condition without having people whinging that good money is being spent on perverts! You still haven't answered my question. How can you enforce compulsory testing without involving the legal agencies, therefore criminalising those who are not tested.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 02:52 AM

Dave. If it comes up with a solution for you, assuming you haven't been holding your breath too long, see if you can apply it to the majority (just) of UK people with infectious sexually transmitted diseases.

They are easy to spot, they are called women. Of the men, the vast majority are heterosexual. Hence the issue for women.

I'll give Cameron his due. Despite bigoted shouting by the more reactionary elements of the Conservative party and the two faced cop outs by the Bishops, he realises that the vast majority of the (voting) population are decent people who don't pre judge others and are comfortable with people finding happiness wherever they need to find it.

Joe. See? Just read the sickening hate filled words it writes and ask yourself if your sense of fair play and respecting views of others needs review. Free speech is responsible speech. Something small minded vermin need to learn before being allowed out in respectable company.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 04:13 AM

Is that a joke Ian, your last post is one of the most hate filled missives that I have ever read, in fact almost everything you write is a diatribe of hatred, especially of free though or free speech.

....and you have the effrontery to accuse others of "Fascism"...:0).

You foolish child!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 04:40 AM

I would have thought the worm would have been out today carrying out manual labour or whatever it is his sort do?

Perhaps we need a compulsory register of inferior people, so we can keep tabs on where they are, what they do and especially what they say......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 05:21 AM

Still no answer to my question then?

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 05:53 AM

Ake says: Joe, in my part of the world and in very many others, most people, both Christian and secular see sex between people of the sex as a perversion. Is it "bigotry" to oppose this "perverted behaviour" being accepted into the church and integrated into the traditional marriage ceremony?

Ake, I have to say, despite opposition from the hardline liberals here, that I think you have a point. Many cultures have taboos against sexual contact between people of the same sex, and these taboos have lasted for ages. The taboos are gradually lifting in North America and Western Europe, although many people in those places and most people in other parts of the world, still hold onto these anti-homosexual taboos. The taboos aren't particularly hateful for the most part - some people of good will just can't find it within themselves to think that same-sex sex is OK. Now, one could condemn these people as horrible bigots, but they really aren't. Once they get used to the idea, they'll at least tolerate it, although they may not support it enthusiastically. Yes, there are some people who are hateful in their hardcore bigotry, but that doesn't describe most of the people who hold onto anti-homosexual taboos.

Rather than condemn these well-meaning people as bigots, the homosexual community needs to reach out to these people in a non-threatening, non-condemning way, and show them that homosexual love can be a good thing. And Ake, several homosexual couples have convinced me by their example that this is true - that their love is pure and wholesome, not something to be seen as perverted.

But just because somebody holds onto a taboo that his/her culture has held for centuries, is no reason to condemn him/her as a bigot.

---

Musket says: Snag is, you say it isn't a Christian thing. Other Christians say it is.
You can't both be right. They quote from the bible. Both Pope and Archbishop of Canterbury have views about being gay that don't sound like "nothing to do with anyone else."

So, Musket, why can't both of us be right? Christians are a huge and vastly diverse group. Why is it that you think that Christian opinions on homosexuality must be uniform?

---

And of course, this goes back to the idea that has been proposed here that is so repulsive to our "militant atheist" participants. Very often, it seems to us in the middle that the militant atheists and the fundamentalist Christians share a perspective. Both groups believe in absolutes, and the rest of us aren't so sure of that. Both groups appear to believe that there can be only one right answer to any given question, that there can be only one correct decision when a choice is presented, that there can be only one correct way of looking at things, and that people are either good or bad (but never both).

Well, many of us disagree. We don't share the "clarity of vision" held by the militant atheists and the Christian fundamentalists. We see diversity. We see that every question has a variety of answers, and every issue has a huge number of valid perspectives. The militant atheists and the Christian fundamentalists are convinced that they possess the Truth, even though their truths are very different from each other. The rest of us spend our lives trying to balance various perspectives, and we know that all we can hope for is a changing balance of perspectives that can only be an approximation of the truth.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 06:04 AM

Dave the Gnome says: I would tackle the epidemic by ensuring there is enough money for research into the condition without having people whinging that good money is being spent on perverts! You still haven't answered my question. How can you enforce compulsory testing without involving the legal agencies, therefore criminalising those who are not tested.

Dave, I worked for thirty years as an investigator for the U.S. Government, and I had a national reputation for the quality of my work. I relied completely on the good will of the people who had information to give me, and I knew that I had to win that good will. I knew that if I had to resort to coercion, I had failed - so I never made use of threats or coercion.

I had a coworker who had worked for the State of California as a venereal disease investigator before he worked for us doing security clearance investigations. It sounded to me like it would be horrible doing VD investigations, but my friend learned to take it as a matter of course - to earn cooperation from people, never to force it.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 06:37 AM

Joe my friend, and I mean that sincerely, the people we speak of are not referring to "love", which is always wholesome no matter to whom it is directed. I have "loved" male family members and close friends with all my heart.....but sexual attraction, or sexual intercourse with someone of the same gender is a completely different matter.

This is what so many people find so hard to stomach...it is a natural reaction to behaviour which seems to defy nature/gods will.
God or nature created man and woman to go forth and multiply.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 06:43 AM

Hi, Ake -
Same-sex attraction is something that you and I will never understand. On occasion, it makes me very uncomfortable - especially in public displays of sexual attraction. But this is not your world and it isn't mine, so we'll never understand it. For them, though, this is the way they live life. Who are you and I to interfere, since we simply can't understand?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 07:08 AM

Dave, you still don't get it..do you?
There have been vast amounts of money spent on research, and even larger amounts are being and will have to be spent on lifetime healthcare for those affected by hiv/aids.

The problem is transmission rates, which are massively higher amongst male homosexuals than any other demographic....not just for hiv, but ALL STDs.

This is obviously a sexual behavioural problem. THINK P.R.O.M.I.S.C.U.I.T.Y.   Look at lifetime sexual partners, length of sexual relationships etc, then ask yourself, why do these figures only apply to male homosexuals?

To halt an epidemic, exceptional measures have often to be used, but I would hope that the homosexual community would be able to oversee a regime of compulsory testing and contact tracing which in time would make it socially unacceptable for practicing male homosexuals not to be regularly tested.

The opting out scheme which is being suggested, is a step on the correct path.

If infection amongst male homosexuals continues to rise at the present rates, something radical will need to be implemented.

You suggestion of throwing MORE money at the problem is a weak cop out.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 08:17 AM

Joe - My comment was about ake's line I do not agree with the criminalisation of homosexuals for their sexual behaviour
while still maintaining that compulsory testing should be performed on all male homosexuals. I quite agree with you about threats and coercion being a failure but ake is advocating compulsory testing. Which I believe is wrong. Thanks for responding anyway.

ake. Still no answer then? How would you enforce compulsory testing?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 08:19 AM

Oh yea, and I have a damned good idea what something radical would entail. Take a leaf from the annals of history maybe? Eliminate the problem altogether? Am I getting it now?

Sick, sick, sick.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 08:51 AM

much as I would like to see the atheists trying , still, to make the impossible in the least remotely likely, without One who can do the seemingly impossible, I see the debate has moved on.
seems to me that words like "bigotry" and "taboo" in use here amount to being judgmental about those of us who for religious belief, or even secular reasoning see homosexual behaviour as against Gods will ,and against nature.
I, and probably most in that category still relate happily to those who practise such things, just as much as other sinful practises, since we regard ourselves as sinners also.
sad that some posters cannot tell the difference between having an opinion and being hateful. seems those particular posters exhibit the most ill will.
but tis the season of good will, so happy holidays to militant atheists, and a blessed Christmas to everyone else.    pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 09:52 AM

Oh good grief. Now we have the against gods will and against nature nonsense. Which gods will is it against, Pete? Yours I suppose. It doesn't seem to be against Joe's or that of countless other religious people. And how can anything that happens naturally be against nature? Or is it against nature in the same way that priest are supposed to be celibate?

I have had a bellyful of this tripe. Any more and it will spoil my Christmas celebrations. Yes, I do celebrate Christmas. And any other excuse for a good time.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 10:40 AM

"This is what so many people find so hard to stomach…it is a natural reaction to behaviour which seems to defy nature/gods will."

"words like "bigotry" and "taboo" in use here amount to being judgmental about those of us who for religious belief, or even secular reasoning see homosexual behaviour as against Gods will ,and against nature."

Well, I can't invoke God but I can science and same-sex encounters exist in nature and are common, including amongst very intelligent species. Bonobos for example frequently engage in 'homosexual' behaviour, as do male lions, many herding animals and cetaceans (Google for papers etc).

So if you need to direct your ire against a certain part of society because you don't approve of their sexual behaviour, don't invoke nature as an argument against homosexuality as it common and natural behaviour. Stick with the theology and argue from there, as your 'against nature' argument is inaccurate and borne of ignorance.

Of course, I'm guessing the extremists would suggest God made nature, so you might well ask yourself why he would build this behaviour into so many species? He's infallible so you must be wrong if as a Christian you think it's wrong . . . and if you're not asking yourself that question, then you need to wonder why.

It's NOT unnatural, it's NOT perverse and it's NOT 'wrong'. Those that protest so much do so for a reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 11:39 AM

You know... I never propose restricting peoples' religion. Neither do I propose restricting peoples' lifestyle.

Joe. If you accept the observation that some people find other peoples's lives wrong, then fine. You may also observe that some people commit murder, fiddle with children and don't take library books back. Observing isn't condoning, and from your comments to the worm, that is how it comes over.

If your religious sense of whatever is hardwired in you does anything other than see people as equal, see opportunity for all regardless of sex, belief, ethnicity or sexual preference, it isn't the likes of me or the vast majority of people who are sickened by prejudice that you should be aiming your guns at.

If any religious teaching says anything other than everybody in society is equal, has equal opportunity and is treated exactly the same, then the religious teaching needs scrutinising to see if we need to protect children and the vulnerable from it.

Please don't walk a tightrope between tenets of your faith and your thoughts as a fellow human. Before making excuses for people who hate gay people, ask yourself how much credence you give to people who want to "string up niggers."

When you were a moderator, you would have asked if a post could give offence to those who stumble upon it. The worm provokes disdain, but a decent normal person reading his hate? And then you pick out a word or two and say the worm has a point?

I note I am not the only person who feels sick when reading his hatred. Pray for the bugger if you like, I will pray for the day when society moves beyond accepting hate as a view. Wanting to rape women is a view too, but I doubt I will ever fill my glass and start a debate.

Do you know why I use terms such as worm and Akenhateon? I just cannot come to terms with the idea that such people still exist in the 21st century in Western society. With the education and morals that society offers in post superstitious communities, I simply cannot see why such views have to be humoured. Hence if I must refer to it, I have to refer in the abstract. As I keep repeating, it makes me feel sick, and judging by other comments, many more too.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 01:46 PM

"Do you know why I use terms such as worm and Akenhateon? I just cannot come to terms with the idea that such people still exist in the 21st century in Western society!"

Ian dear fellow, you really do need to get out more....there is a whole world out there, a multitude of people who do not share your processed views on pretend equality, or entitlement without responsibility.

Try to calm down and use that sticky morass inside your skull, you may actually get to like it ...it will teach you about differences of opinion, how beneficial they are to the construction of society, how they make the world a more interesting place, and how they help you come to terms with the inner IAN.

Have a very happy and calming Christmas...AKE.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 01:53 PM

Dave the Gnome, I don't think government has to attach criminal penalties to the requirement for universal HIV/AIDS testing. Government accomplishes many things without having to resort to the imposition of criminal sanctions. Design a good, attractive program and you can have good compliance without criminal penalties.

Musket, you present an unfair and unrealistic view of the majority of people who oppose homosexuality. Only a small lunatic fringe is likely to do harm to homosexuals, people like the Westboro Baptist Church (40 members) that you refer to so often. Musket, you paint Akenaton with the same brush, and that's just not fair. The taboos against homosexuals have been part of our culture for a long, long time - it's going to take patience and good example and hard work and understanding to erase those taboos. Oh - and honesty will also help a lot. Akenaton may have thinking you disagree with, but he hasn't said any of the hateful things you accuse him of.

I'm sure that many people you know and love have held onto the anti-homosexual taboos at some time in their lives - most likely, some still hold to those taboos now. You're not going to win them over by beating them on the head, like you constantly do to Akenaton.

Merry Christmas.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 02:29 PM

Stu...I think you are simply wrong here, I do not accept that animals, with the exception of humans, knowingly have same gender sex.
In the "lower" animal world sex is triggered by instinct and chemical signals between male and female animals.
Two males simply do not have the capacity to make these chemical signals.

I have seen male animals go through the MOTIONS of sexual behaviour, but only under conditions of extreme stress; not in a natural environment.

Homosexuality IS perverse as we, male and female, were given the organs of reproduction, solely to reproduce....the pleasure we gain from sexual intercourse is an added incentive for reproduction.
So sexual intercourse with someone of the same gender is in essence a perversion of the true purpose.
That is not to say that all perversions are harmful, but this particular one seems to be gravely dangerous to those who practice it, especially if they are male.
In my opinion this is because two people of the same gender were not designed or have not evolved to have sex together, nature always has ways of kicking back at those who dare to break the natural laws

It is called "the survival of the species"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 08:22 PM

I'm abandoning the thread for Christmas and I hope everyone has a good one, without exception.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 05:35 AM

Today is Christmas day ...could we not have at least one day away from the bigotry, pettiness, small mindedness,intolerance and pseudo academic strutting from some of our regulars.

I for one wish you all a very Merry Christmas, whatever your colour, creed and sexual orientation.


Peace Love and Joy to you all

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 06:48 AM

Homosexuality IS perverse as we, male and female, were given the organs of reproduction, solely to reproduce....the pleasure we gain from sexual intercourse is an added incentive for reproduction.
So sexual intercourse with someone of the same gender is in essence a perversion of the true purpose.

This is as tragic a example of misinformed hogwash as I've experienced for some time; the sort of fascistic idiocy that underwrites small-minded hatred in which ignorance masquerades as 'informed'.

Reproduction is, at best, a random by-product of the universal procedure known as sexual intercourse. In itself reproduction is statistically insignificant given the amount of instances of sexual intercourse as against the instances of actual conception. Moreover, who has sexual intercourse to reproduce? Indeed, the mechanism of sexual intercourse is designed solely - utterly and totally - to give transcendent pleasure to the participants. It is not an 'added incentive' - it is the be-all and end-all of why we fuck.

There is nothing more 'natural' about heterosexual sex than homosexual - both are about deep instinctive sensual pleasuring to the point of orgasmic delirium (and beyond) and both work flawlessly to that end. Everything humanity turns its hand to is about using nature in such a way to enrich our lives. You hardly find steam engines, TV sets or laptop computers growing on trees, and yet these things 'work' according to the same natural universal laws that govern our bodies, with which we can do what we damn well wish in the pursuit of Peace, Love, Joy and Goodwill Toward All.

The possibilities are endless, so it's always a shame when some small-minded ill-informed fecking idiot comes along spreading their message of hate based on a complete misunderstanding of what is natural, or not natural, based entirely on their own fucked up miserable world-view which is the only true perversion here.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 09:17 AM

And a Merry Christmas to you too Jack, no matter which planet or substance you're on....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 10:34 AM

Fuck off you homophobic tosser.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 12:42 PM

Sometimes I thank God I'm not a "liberal"   :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 01:49 PM

Sometimes I thank Clapton you feel superior to "liberals."

Joe. Your reading of the comments Akenhateon makes are sadly naive. Ask the (it's Xmas) person. He will happily admit he says what he just said after your support for him actually. He puts the word marriage in parentheses when it refers to people of the same gender. He calls them perverts and says that equality for them is a liberal plot. He assumes they are rife with sexually transmitted diseases yet is ignorant of the real picture. He speaks of testing for HIV when the success story around services is to be admired over here. He speaks of compulsory registers of gay people.

May I suggest reading of the tacit respectability your church gave to European fascist dictatorships 70 years ago? Don't you think there's something similar going on? The worm is ignorant and uneducated so it would be like blaming a puppy for shitting on the carpet but the hate websites he gets his ideas from are full of nasty people who are also intelligent enough to use hate as a tool to divide society for their political ends. Just read what he puts. He throws in sentences he doesn't understand when challenged about them and he, not those of us disgusted by him, says it all.

All you have to do is read. It's so simple.

Perhaps as you keep bringing religion into it, despite the worm claiming not to be religious, you might describe how churches have a duty to social cohesion if they wish to influence outside of their congregation? Saying there is a history of bigotry therefore we have to accommodate bigotry is hopefully not what you are trying to say. But it is how it comes over.

Oh. Merry Xmas by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 02:27 PM

Ian, it's interesting to see you have "rounded up" your friends in the bell ringing fraternity to come to your assistance, as you have been steadily losing ground on the issue under debate.
Your stance is as morally bankrupt as the procedures you claim to have advised the health agencies to instigate. There has shamefully been absolutely no improvement in male homosexual sexually transmitted disease rates in the last ten years.....something I have been warning about for at least six of those ten years.

It may interest your accomplice to know that I was a close friend of the late Mr N Chaddock and assisted him in the restoration of the Inverary bell tower, which contains one of the finest ring of bells in the country.

So I obviously know more about bells and bell ringing, than our erudite guest knows about human biology, or psychology. :0)

He does though, seem to have assimilated some your finely developed appreciation of coarse personal abuse.....please pass on my condolences.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 02:53 AM

What the f..?

What in the name of all that is Yardbirds has bell ringing to do with it? Unless the worm has it as a euphemism? I've never rung a bell in my life. Come to think of it, I must have missed something if another Mudcat member has spoken of it? Mrs Musket made her annual trip to the tower the worm mentions this last summer but there again, it is her hobby. As she used to live in Edinburgh, the few Scottish towers there are get some hammer as it were when we are up there. I'll be in the pub nearby.

Who is talking about that hobby worm? Especially in this context?

I like Blandiver's turn of phrase. It sums up the disgust many feel.

Any other hobbies you know a bit about worm? Book binding? Stamp collecting? Putting a white hood on? Like bell ringing, I can't discuss the ins and outs with you, but I'm sure there are those that can. If you wish to take up bell ringing though, beware. You might come across some gay people and that would never do. Come to think about it, at least three other bell ringers would have to look in your direction all the time, and that would never do either.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 09:06 AM

So, "Jack" is not an acquaintance then?

I am not as "ignorant" as you appear to believe. :0)

I am pleased that you don't accompany Mrs Mather to the bell tower, Norman and Elsie would be disgusted to think of your soiled hands on their beloved bells.

Maybe you could tell your good lady, that as a child, I was always taken outside to hear the Inverary bells ring in the New Year.
The peal could be heard all down Loch Fyne on a still night.
Unforgettable.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 10:54 AM

Err.... There is no Mrs Mather. No Mrs Musket obviously but in the same way Akenhateon doesn't want respectable people to think old Alex is a bigoted twat, I unfortunately have a reasonably well known (in that I am held to account by politicians and media) profile, so when Akenhateon insists on using my name, he is using the name I have always used in music, keeping my professional / family apart from my hobby, singing and playing. If I could find humour in any of his posts, I would laugh at his attempts to "out" people he thinks are dangerous to his warped sense of reality.

But I can't. I have a weird sense of humour but not a sick one.

You see, I stand by whatever I say as Ian, Musket or Phil. It's all the same, but with perhaps different levels of diplomacy and empathy. In any event, my disdain of those who judge lifestyle and wish to inflict their wishes accordingly get the same treatment anyway. I would wipe my feet on the way out, regardless of whether I drink or leave my beer. I reckon I would leave it. It might taste sour.

Such people who would "do something about" sections of society have unfortunate consequences. Because of them, people might feel it not a good idea to mention aspects of what makes them what they are. I am amazed for instance how many gay people there are in the UK folk circuit whilst at the same time how many people think the folk circuit doesn't have many gay people in it. Ditto the numbers who love collecting old songs as a jigsaw to the past yet at the same time there are those who think it is no more and no less than an expression of left wing political nonsense.

We hear every life story in the pub. One of the saddest I heard when staying in London was a lad who was seeing another man. He hadn't worked out whether he was gay or not but felt very attracted to his new boyfriend. He had had female lovers as well but couldn't work out whether he was keeping his father, 500 miles away, happy. To compound matters, his new boyfriend was black and the large Afro Caribbean community down there made their feelings known regarding inter race, let alone gender! (Isn't bigotry so fucking awful?). Young Bruce felt so frustrated because he respected his family, saw his father as a dinosaur but a dinosaur he wanted to please. He was silly enough to say all this whilst slightly drunk to quite a few of us, hence I, a drinking acquaintance, heard it all.

Bigotry has cause and consequence beyond the experience of the bigot. One of the worst aspects of the affliction.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 12:16 PM

Ian, when I first encounter you on these pages, you were using the handle "Ian Mather", if you do not wish to be known as Ian, why broadcast it?
You continuously refer to me in many derogatory terms.
Ian is not a term of abuse.
Many folks here know my name is Alex, I do not object to you using my Christian name in discussion here, but I suppose it would look rather incongruous, if you were determined to keep up your childish campaign of personal abuse?
I was discussing you attitude recently with another member and we came to the rather ironic conclusion that you really think that YOU are God...that no one else on earth deserves to hold any opinion with which you....."Messiah I" disagree.
You live in a bubble Ian, the bubble of your "unconditional equality" agenda.

The reason I know this, is because I used to BE "Ian Mather". In my younger days, I saw evil in everything which did not fit with my indoctrinated world view, religion, conservatism, true liberalism, even although I knew it could never be achieved under the present socio-economic system.....I hated everyone and everything which contradicted my agenda
Fortunately, many years ago, I learned to be my own man, to think for myself to see the good things in other ideologies....and more importantly, to see the bad in my own, how I tried to hide the truth even from myself, just because it was inconvenient to my political agenda.
Today I realise that many conservative social policies are good for people and some "liberal" policies are extremely destructive to society and to the sections of society towards which they are directed.

I look on it all as a process of Growing Up psychologically, and I hope sincerely that you can start to think upon these matters a bit more deeply in the future.......A Guid New Year to you when it comes...Alex.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 12:39 PM

I suppose having a name for a star studded rock God career sniffing marching powder and being less than respectable to groupies didn't quite happen. Although the ex bass player of a well known indie band in the '90s who is himself a director of an NHS trust gets his past parodied by the local press when there is a health scare story in the offering.

Although I use a name for other than professional and private in music, hence bringing it to Mudcat, most people know both. Hence the move to Musket when a view here on Mudcat was explored (positively as it happens) at work.

That aside, allow me to address you directly. A while ago, a kind soul pm'd me lots of quotes from your past posts. (They must really have it on for you, it was a very long post...). As well as your more odious rants, mainly against gay people, it included a few gems showing a side of you that doesn't equate.

How can you post saying you see no difference in skin colour / race and that we are all fellow people yet say the exact opposite regarding gay people?

THAT is the bigotry I and others refer to. Pointing to the media fascination with the pink agenda and using that to describe all gay people. For someone normally disdainful of newspapers and government, you are quick to repeat their mantra when it resonates with your preconceptions.

You say you have lost your anger. Fine. Use the same logic to lose your fear and mistrust of fellow members of society.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link.
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 01:40 PM

I should just note that with ref to Akes post that the Christian view is that sex is for married love and not just for having offspring.       With ref to stus post...when I say that something is against nature, I was not inferring that it never happens in nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 02:18 PM

Saying that sexual intercourse is about procreation is like saying we travel in cars to die in road accidents.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 03:42 PM

Humanity has perverted sex in many ways, the sexualisation of children, or the use of sex as a marketing tool and now as a political weapon.

I said that the original purpose of sexual organs on any living creature was for procreation.

That is undeniable.....only a fool would suggest that procreation was designed by nature/god as only a by-product of sexual intercourse or that sexual intercourse was only designed to "give pleasure"

Same gender sex is without doubt a perversion of the true purpose.

"How can you post saying you see no difference in skin colour / race and that we are all fellow people yet say the exact opposite regarding gay people?

There are many types of behaviour which I believe to be destructive to society, the colour of ones skin or their racial origin do not come into that category.
Although I believe many of these behaviours are dangerous to those who practice them and to wider society, I understand that many people will not or cannot alter their behaviour...smokers for example, but I do not believe these behaviours should be promoted through legislation as safe and healthy, when the official health figures say that they patently are not.

They are being promoted because they fit into a "liberal" agenda of false "equality", which is hindering the work of those who sincerely wish to defeat the epidemic currently affecting male homosexuals.

I have a number of enemies here Ian and obviously one of them has taken the time to trawl through thousands of posts and quote me out of context....I dislike ignorant personal abuse in place of reasoned argument, but I dislike cowardice even more, if someone objects to my arguments let him/her come forward and make their case, not do their dirty work through a third party.

I give you credit for having the guts to stand your ground, but to use such material, from such a source, weakens your stance.

Pete..I understand and respect your point, but I can hardly argue the Christian case, when I am merely a Lapstatheist?... :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 04:04 PM

BTW Ian, don't think for a moment that I have "lost my anger" I am just as angry as in my youth, the difference is that I have learnt to direct my "anger" myself, rather than be manipulated by any political agenda.

As to your "informant", at the moment I am directing my "anger" in their direction :0)

I have narrowed it down to two, one male, one female, both devious ignominious cowards. As the great Rabbie said, I shall "nurse my wrath tae keep it warm".....perhaps they have enough "smeddum" to come forward, but I wont hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 05:12 PM

An explanation

Our liberal values were first given to us by the thinkers of the Enlightenment. Right from the start these values contained elements which were later to threaten the whole project. In particular, they suggested the perfectibility of mankind, that through open-ended advance society would be improved and human goodness would flourish. As Christopher Lasch has written, the outcome was that the economic machine came to be driven by 'insatiable desires'. Pursuit of happiness became the highest goal of society. As the individual took ever greater priority, moral questions turned from how we ought to behave towards each other to promoting the greatest happiness of the greatest number. Moral obligations were in effect junked, opening the way for a libertarian revolution in which freedom became an end in itself and liberalism was directly threatened.

For liberalism was essentially a moral project based on recognising the difference between right and wrong. As John Stuart Mill himself warned, a free society would be threatened if its 'restraining discipline' was relaxed. This is because the paradox of liberalism is that although it is a philosophy of freedom, it depends on moral restraint as the basis of liberty. Licence, by contrast, is a threat to freedom since it observes no obligation to others. As Jonathan Sacks has put it: 'For liberalism, freedom is collective self-government and morality consists at least in part in those virtues which support it. For libertarianism, by contrast, freedom is the protection of individual choice'.

So in our libertarian society, where individual choice is all, 'liberal' and 'progressive' have come to mean something very different. Liberals took for granted that freedom depended upon self-discipline. Libertarians decided that all such restraint was repressive. The individual had to be free from all attachments to family, culture, nation, institutions and traditions that might fetter freedom of choice. Since every individual was equally entitled to such free choices, the distinctions that were the basis of morality became eroded. To be progressive was thus inevitably redefined as being free to do harm, with harm itself being reinvented as virtue. So to walk out on your children was, in the remarkable words of Michael Ignatieff, an act of the 'liberal imagination' as it upheld an individual's needs against 'the devouring claims of family life'.

People who criticise this attitude as not only selfish but socially destructive are told, however, that they are illiberal, prejudiced and reactionary. They are also intimidated into silence. In his devastating pamphlet Moral Evasion , David Selbourne bears witness to the vast vocabulary of Orwellian distortions used by the 'liberal' media (which unsurprisingly failed to register his shaming rebuke) in their attempt to impose conformity. Terms of abuse routinely hurled at ideological opponents include 'moral crusaders', 'moral muggers', 'moral panic', 'moralisers', 'authoritarian moralists', 'mullahs of the religious right', 'new puritans', 'priggish', 'hectoring,' 'baying', 'guilty of knee jerk intolerance' and even 'ushering in a New Reich'. Such intellectual thuggery is routinely deployed in the interests of the right to behave badly. How can these assailants possibly be liberals?

In our culture of rights, what we desire is elevated to an entitlement regardless of the consequences upon others. Anything goes, all ethical bets are off, and anyone who objects is a reactionary. Yet as John Gray has written, far from creating tolerance, group rights are likely to lead to more intolerance since issues become non-negotiable and permit only victory or surrender, leading to a kind of reverse apartheid. A prime example of this is the tactics of the gay rights lobby, which brands opponents of the reduction in the age of consent or the abolition of Clause 28 as homophobes and subjects them to hate campaigns of rare viciousness.

It is of course perfectly possible to be tolerant and compassionate towards gay people while opposing elements of a militant campaign which may do harm to children. Not to think so subscribes to the view that minorities which claim victim status can do no wrong and so anyone who opposes anything they say is to be branded a bigot. Indeed, it is not just perfectly decent, liberal heterosexuals who are so branded but even some gays themselves, whose own principled opposition to such measures may expose them to 'outing' campaigns whose vileness beggars belief but on which phoney liberals, forever trumpeting their concern for gay sensibilities, are strangely silent.

The trump card played by all group rightists is 'equality', the claim that all they ask is to be treated the same as everyone else. This, though, is another debasement of the language. Equality once meant the equal worth of persons expressed through fellowship, shared experience and mutual respect. Now it has come to mean instead identical material ends and outcomes. Yet people are not identical. Their behaviour and circumstances are very different from each other. To treat them as identical may therefore be unfair or harmful.

That's why, for example, the woman who doesn't want a man around but gets pregnant via a sperm-bank on the basis that she has the right to be a mother 'like any other woman' is reckless of the disadvantage to the child conceived through such a brutal utilitarian procedure. That's why, in education, the 'all must have prizes' doctrine that says there is no difference between academic and vocational qualifications is leaving young people both uneducated and unskilled. That's why divorce court judges who award children and assets with no regard to behaviour routinely cause the manifest injustice of rewarding wrongdoing and punishing blamelessness. How can any of this possibly be considered progressive?

This radical individualism worships autonomy and deems obligation to be oppressive. Yet without obligation there can be no such thing as society. Isn't this what liberals were supposed to find so objectionable about Thatcherism? Instead, progress has been reduced to a hedonistic selfishness which unites the so-called progressives of the left with the so-called conservatives of the right. Consumerism rules in personal relations as much as in economics. Our most advanced thinkers regularly genuflect before the altar of globalisation, loudly reasserting their powerlessness to make a fairer society in the face of market forces.

In such a world, it has become a positive merit to stand for nothing since this means that nothing can stand in the way of change and the march of global capital. The term progress has become vacuous, meaning merely change for change's sake. All tradition thus becomes a suitable case for disposal. Ironically, this is as backward-looking as it is ahistorical. If the nation state is to be junked as an anachronism, we may enter what the French thinker Alain Minc has called a new Middle Ages characterised by tribal conflicts and hostilities. As for the claim that the traditional family should now be consigned to a museum, no less a liberal than the divorce expert Lawrence Stone warned that the present anarchy in personal relationships would take us right back to the pre-modern period.

To reject the barbarisms which are flowing so strongly from this reductive view of progress is not to be illiberal or reactionary. On the contrary, to resist them is to be progressive because a forward-thinking world view is one that genuinely cares for individual human beings. It recognises that for their situation to improve we must connect with reality rather than construct a fantasy of utopia. Human nature is not perfectible. It is neither intrinsically good nor bad. Instead, human beings are capable of both good and bad deeds and have a fundamental need for attachments. If we don't want a savage war of all against all, we have to encourage good behaviour and socially useful attachments and discourage the bad and socially harmful. In other words moral distinctions are crucial. Progressives therefore have a duty to resist the 'happiness above all' philosophy which collapses those distinctions and takes heavy casualties.

The idea that all pre-existing traditions or values are by definition just so much unprogressive baggage is as philistine as it is risible. Values dismissed as conservative are actually universal: attachment, commitment to individuals and institutions, ties of duty, trust and fidelity, the distinction between constructive and destructive behaviour. Without these things freedom cannot flourish and society cannot exist. The paradox is that only by conserving such values can progress occur. Small, incremental steps are the most secure way of bringing about beneficial change. Radicalism or revolution are likely to implode and leave us worse off than before.

In other words, we have to rescue progress from the so-called progressives. We need a liberal, not a libertarian, social order with deeper values than contract and other criteria for progress than material advances. Moral restraint is the glue that provides social cohesion. Liberty is not achieved but threatened by the relativistic pursuit of autonomy and rights. The task for progressives is to defend liberal democracy. That means, paradoxically, using conservative weapons. The old enemy which brought liberalism into being remains. There is still the danger of fanaticism, authoritarianism, abuse of power, exploitation or abuse of the old and the young, corruption, rigged elections and harm to minorities. In our confused discourse, some people who embody these very threats have disguised themselves as liberals. Their deep intolerance and intimidatory techniques in pursuit of licence and power must be resisted in the interests of preserving a decent, fair and free society.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 05:30 PM

Of what?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 06:58 PM

But the material was your own words with references to the posts you put them in, if context was sought.

My anger at you is borne of your own words, and even disregarding anything in the past, your own words over the last few hours alone make my blood boil.

I read words that are lifted from far right hate websites, yet you wish to have such views respected? Your post above has lots of big words but no big thoughts contained in them.

On reflection, I see no reason to alter my earlier stance. Sad but there you go.

Even pete has seen that you didn't mean what he thought you meant. Once you have had your sustainable 2.3 children, what are you supposed to do? His bible reckons prostitutes are better than wanking, so pure procreation isn't even a Christian idea, although if Keith A Hole of Hertford is reading, it may well be a Christianism idea......




Oh, making a link between being gay and abusing children? Oh dear.... I know I shouldn't have waded through your last post. I ate late and need an indigestion tablet now.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 08:31 PM

Only a small lunatic fringe is likely to do harm to homosexuals

Quite possibly the most naive and unworldly thing I've read here for years.

I said that the original purpose of sexual organs on any living creature was for procreation.

So, no wanking then? Get a bloody life, fer chrissake!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 02:58 AM

Naw Co Messiah S. It isn't his take on life that stops him from taking Capt Pickard up to warp speed. It's his geographical background. The dour buggers up there are too tight to crack one out and waste it. It explains the kilt.



Alright for you Joe? Look at me having a laugh and a joke rather than swallowing hard to keep the bile down. You try and throw an olive branch and his posts above are his reply.

How the hell do you expect me to remain civil?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 05:08 AM

Eyup Co Messiah S!

Hope the weather down in Yokelville isn't too bad. Looks grim on the news. Cold wet and windy here. The weather isn't much better either.

It would be nice if they invented a greyhound that could stay on his beanbag in the kitchen when the wind is whistling down the range flue. Ruddy furry wimp. He is cowering on the rug on the study, which is quiet and in the lee of the rather impressive wind. I lost a few ridge tiles the other week and this seems worse so keeping fingers crossed and car out of the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 05:23 AM

only a fool would suggest that procreation was designed by nature/god

You got that right, Ake.

There is no design, just ever evolving process that comes out of beauteous Godless nothing. When we fuck we commune with utter senselessness, possessed by a primal lustful passion that comes welling up from our darkest most base animal biological subroutines in which nature cons us into procreation by giving us an orgasmic addiction to the glories of the flesh which might eclipse all other considerations in the raging instant.

Gay, straight, whatever - it's all as NATURAL as anything else; men end up with a G-spot up their arseholes - which you no doubt see as intelligent design, especially as it chimes in with the delightful passages of anal sex in The Song of Solomon. Mostly we're dealing with basic sensual joys & carnal pleasures that existed MILLIONS OF YEARS before ever we figured the causal link between sexual intercourse and pregnancy. And what was our first response to that? CONTRACEPTION!

The reality is, human beings fuck one another in all sorts of delightful ways for pure holy joy of the thing - there is no right or wrong to any of it just as long as its consensual, above board and legal.

The only truly Unnatural things we've ever come up with are GOD & RELIGION.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 05:33 AM

"Stu...I think you are simply wrong here, I do not accept that animals, with the exception of humans, knowingly have same gender sex.
In the "lower" animal world sex is triggered by instinct and chemical signals between male and female animals.
Two males simply do not have the capacity to make these chemical signals."

This statement indicates you might have a rather naive view of sex and its function. Apart from procreation many species use sex as form of socials bonding, reinforcing relationships within groups and these are the reasons sex occurs between males. There are sound biological reasons for this behaviour, it exists and is studied closely as it gives us insight into our own nature. What you're doing is putting an anthropocentric slant on the behaviour of other species, and this has long been discredited as we begin to comprehend the nature of animal consciousness. They do think like us, although there are parallels (as an aside, I often wonder if the tetrapod way of thinking differs radically from that of a mollusc, such as an octopus? We recognise certain aspects of our own thinking in some animals, but are beginning to realise that many have very different ways of comprehending the world. But then some humans do; I saw a documentary on telly about an isolated forest tribe who had no concept of time as a linear process. They just were. Isn't all so wonderful?)

There is little doubt that we underestimate the intelligence and cultural nature of many animal's societies. We observe tool use in species ranging from us to birds (lotsa wonderful stuff on YouTube, plus the zoology blogs), we know many animals are capable of exchanging complex information on an intra-sepcies level, transmitting information between generations and have advanced problem-solving capabilities: they reason and can think in terms of steps ahead.

So suggesting that any animal is 'lower' is considered ludicrous (except in phylogentic terms, but that's not a judgement) and projecting our own human assumptions onto animals is equally wrong. Homosexuality is a natural variant of animal (including human) behaviour, is certainly not "perverse" (more judgement) and from a biological viewpoint has evolved as an important social mechanism.

Morality is a social construct. It is borne of a consensus amongst a population that certain actions cause harm to the greater good. Religious types will say their particular creed is the one and only correct moral source, some people (like myself) would concluded that many of our most basic moral principles were decided on a long time before the religions we have today were formed, and many of these tenets are fundamental to us all, regardless.

Homosexuality has existed since there were people and it has never dragged a society down. Worrying about what consenting people get up to in their bedrooms is rather sad to my mind, and is a distraction from the real issues facing us. Forcing our views on people whether religious (teaching creationism as science) or cultural (anti-gay, racist) is simply not the way forward for any society, end of.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 07:28 AM

Nor "end of" Stu, I agree with some of what you say, for example that animals are not lesser, I only used "lower" to distinguish the human species from other animals.....I suppose to be perfectly accurate, I should have used "higher" rather than "lower".
I don't agree about the status of homosexuality as presented by you,
You do not address the negative aspects like sexual health rates, or where homosexuals are to fit into society, their interaction with the many worldwide, who see their behaviour as "unnatural".

The crux seem to me to be the fact that homosexual couples cannot reproduce and without help from heterosexuals they can never fulfil themselves by producing or nurturing offspring.
This in itself is against the primary law of nature, which is that the species must survive.

I will say, that you are obviously sincere in your views and are also much better educated than I, but I am yet to be convinced by what you have written so far. I would like to see you tackle the negative aspects of male homosexual behaviour.....there seems to be a difference between the sexual health of homosexuals , male and female.
Do you feel able to explain this?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 08:41 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 08:59 AM

or where homosexuals are to fit into society, their interaction with the many worldwide, who see their behaviour as "unnatural".

As with God & Religion, Bigotry is unnatural too. It flies in the face of evident reality and insists upon sanctimonious propriety as oppose to just accepting things the way they are by way of engendering an individual freedom which is the ultimate aim of our species. That is, to simply LIVE and to LET LIVE without resorting to mythical absolutes in the name of a fictitious deity made up long ago when we didn't know any better.

The essence of Militant Atheism is an end of Bigotry, Intolerance and Sanctimonious Falsehood which are the fruits by which we know the Religious. Attitudes sadly typified by our own dear Ake - who would bring his own prissy standards to bear on a naturally promiscuous culture he neither understands or approves of. But then again I know life-long Monogamous Gay couples in their 70s & 80s healthier than I'll ever be. Like it matters. Mountain climbing has a statistical effect on ones expected lifespan as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,The troll formally known as the troll conce
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 09:44 AM

Peace on earth good will to all men..my arse!!!.just like the xmas truce in 1914..one breif respite then they are back at it hammer and tongs.Did none of you get no toys and games this xms?...surly you havent used all the crayobs yet...come on frauds..tger is more to life than this psudo intellectual mummery..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 10:23 AM

"… and are also much better educated than I"

Nice of you to say Ake, but I'm not at all educated! 3 'O' Levels, one art and one graphic design vocational qualification from college and years of pulling myself up by my bootstraps meaning I will starting a higher degree on New Year's Day (self-funded, vertebrate palaeontology). No undergrad degree, just managed to get in (not so easy even if I am paying).

"I would like to see you tackle the negative aspects of male homosexual behaviour…."

"Negative aspects" is simply a value judgement. There is a biological reason for what is a variation of normal sexual behaviour, and however that is interpreted by individuals is, in a sense, irrelevant as it doesn't alter the facts of the situation.

However to us it does matter, but should it? Personally as long as it's legal and people are happy I can't see what it has to do with me, or why I should oppose it. I don't believe that homosexual behaviour is any more or less 'bad' than the behaviour of the tens of thousands drinking themselves into oblivion several nights a week and acting promiscuously - and as long as it doesn't affect any innocent people then that behaviour is of no concern to me. Of course as a society we pay a price for this behaviour in terms of taxation, perhaps a degree of intimidation going to certain places at night or a sense of disgust at the mess left the next morning. But it's part of who we are as society, and so is people's sexual behaviour.

So there's a certain degree of subjectivity to how we approach issues like this. Essentially it's about freedom of choice and so I fully support gay marriage, gay clergy and gay anything else. There's strength in diversity and we all have something to contribute.

There's so much more to worry about, like the Creationist fundamentalists who want to fill our children's heads with falsehoods, lies and misrepresentations. They are a concern.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket nodding
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 10:45 AM

I think Dave the Gnome makes a pertinent point. Rather speechless myself....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 11:19 AM

I'm really impressed Stu, good luck in anything you go for.

I think you slightly miss the point though, the negative aspects include an epidemic of sexual disease, which does not affect other demographics.
The ruined lives and cost of lifetime treatment, Is something which should be of concern to everyone. Something needs to be done to contain this epidemic.
It is not simply a case of "none of my business". Neither have you attempted to explain why these infection rates exist, is there something intrinsically wrong with male to male sexual relationships which causes these rates over all countries, races, and all male STD's?

The rates are rising annually, while rates in other demographics are falling, should we just look the other way and pretend that all is well with the world? Or worse actively promote this behaviour as just another safe and healthy lifestyle.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 12:12 PM

Just for the benefit of anyone who is interested in the sexually transmitted disease angle:

Unprotected anal sex has a high likelihood of breaking tissue, resulting in blood contamination. Skin is pretty impervious but stretched foreskin can fe appoint of entry, ditto the internal tissue of the anus (hence the fast acting nature of suppository medicine.

Therefore, historically, gay men were amongst the first to suffer widespread HIV infection. However, (and the data behind this is UK based but according to The World Health Organisation is very typical in Western society,) since the mid 1990s, more women than ever have seen anal sex as fashionable, possibly through expectations of men with more access to pornography than ever, and this becomes a self fulfilling prophesy. Data from NHS hospitals through analysis of accident and emergency presentation and elective colo rectal treatment shows surgical intervention resulting from causes related to anal sex are predominantly women. In addition, meta analysis of lifestyle surveys concur...

Of all recipients of anal sex, women make up the majority.

Now to deal with occurrence of one of the more nasty sexually transmitted diseases, HIV. The last reporting year of The Health Protection Agency showed just over 6,000 new cases that were marked as male to male sex caused. Awful. (It was slightly less than that, poor coding by NHS trusts skew the figures, but bad anyway.) Not many in number nationwide, but still, far too many. In fact, they make up approximately half of all new cases. Public Health England, in guidance to commissioning of GU services pointed out the success rate in asking gay men to come forward to be tested and have challenged NHS providers to encourage the other risk groups, ie women and heterosexual men with promiscuous lifestyles and substance misuse drug takers to present for screening in the admirable way gay men do.

Incidentally, over forty million blood tests that can identify HIV, and six thousand (too many) positive from gay men. Statistically, that means over a million gay screens were negative, but if you are in hospital for an operation on your leg, your sexual life is not recorded, thankfully. The interesting statistic being the vast majority were from voluntary screening for that purpose rather than routine blood tests during other clinical interventions. By far the most responsible minded group in the high risk categories.



That is why these lies and false statistics are so damning. What is worse, a false politically minded interpretation is used by those who seek to demonise gay people, including many in the medical profession. A consultant in public health is shortly due in front of a fitness panel at The General Medical Council for using selective data and lecturing it in his mosque to make a false point. He has already been cautioned by his local police for inciting hate over the matter.

(Source - British Medical Journal.) if you don't cite, Keith A Hole of Hertford calls you a liar if his google doesn't work. He likes to support our resident bigot, on account of his religious and political stance.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 12:31 PM

It was slightly less than that, poor coding by NHS trusts skew the figures
That bit was not in the BMJ report.
You made it up.
You think you know better than HPA!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 12:38 PM

"Neither have you attempted to explain why these infection rates exist"

I'm not a virologist, and really don't have a clue. Viri are quite adept at evolving quickly and taking advantage of certain conditions, and in a way HIV is no different to any other virus. I sort of am not too interested in getting into a discussion about this subject from this angle.

My point is that from a scientific point of view same-sex play is a natural variation of normal and exists in many species. Beyond that, I'm not sure I can contribute effectively.

I'm still worrying about those bloody creationists.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 12:43 PM

In what sense is any of that sourced from BMJ?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 12:52 PM

I have kept off for a couple of days because it was Christmas and I we have had the Gnome flu in the household. Started to feel a bit better but then read what has been going on. Oh dear...

Joe, yes, you can achieve a lot by less sinister means. I agree completely. But this is not what ake is proposing. He wants compulsory testing. Note that he has never answered the question of how he proposes to enforce this? While we are at it, how about finding out what these 'radical methods' he mentions are in more detail? See, testing alone cannot achieve anything. The test results must be acted upon. We need to ask ourselves the question, what actions will be taken?

So, ake, will you detail your plans to achieve compulsory testing and thereby eradicate the virus? Give us as much detail as you like. We all have strong stomachs.

BTW - I am far from your views of 'liberal'. I would quite happily accept cruel and harsh punishments for kiddy fiddlers and granny bashers. And you don't want to know what I have in mind for the little sods who keep stealing our solar lights.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link.
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 04:08 PM

Still stuing over ..".....".....creationists.         Any logical reason for that.......other than people might see through the theory, and recognise it,s lack of evidence.   So much for tolerance....the thought police are here!.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 05:27 PM

Are you referencing the total lack of any evidence for Creationist bullshit, Pete?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 06:03 PM

The crux seem to me to be the fact that homosexual couples cannot reproduce and without help from heterosexuals they can never fulfil themselves by producing or nurturing offspring.
This in itself is against the primary law of nature, which is that the species must survive.

Can anyone believe that someone can proudly come on here and shamelessly spout this tripe?

Let's see how the following fit in with ake's view of the "primary law of nature" (which, by the way, was clearly not invented until dicks 'n' fannies came along, about three billion years after life began...). No wanking. No sex if you are unfortunate enough to be sterile. No sex if you've had a vasectomy. No sex if you're past the menopause. No sex if you've had six kids already and don't want any more. No sex if you're too poor to afford kids. Do you know summat, ake? You don't know anything about the primary laws of anything. You make up primary laws to fit your prejudices. "Species must survive"? Really? Are you actually aware that 99.9% of all the species that got going on this planet have not survived? I'll give you credit for one thing at least: you don't indulge in other people's predigested gobbets of egregious tripe - you make up your own as you go along. Stroll on.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 07:10 PM

I see Ian's old health problem is rearing its ugly head again...OCLD.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 07:48 PM

"Can anyone believe that someone can proudly come on here and shamelessly spout this tripe?"

Yes.. I can... because I see the very BASIC flaw in the approach.

He said :"that the original purpose of sexual organs on any living creature was for procreation."

Due not only to ake's fundamental misuse of the term 'purpose', but also to the tendency of others insert so many insults into the debate that their often quite relevant points are lost in a bad signal-to-noise ratio, it is hard to stay focused on the issue.

akenaton: first- it is a very bad practice to C&P an 'explanation' with no quotation marks or attribution:

and second...Natural laws and developments of evolution do not HAVE 'purpose' in the sense you wish to propound. It is quite true that some sort of conditions must be in place for organisms to reproduce.. and more complex organisms develop complex bio-chemical mechanisms that often lead to reproduction. As long as a certain proportion of any species DOES reproduce, there can be amazingly varied offshoots & byways in the details of characteristics. Just as hair color and height can vary widely, so can the genetic structure that defines the hormonal balance that controls not only sexual reproduction, but also affects the subtleties of sexual attraction! You do not have to accept MY word on this: the studies and statistics are there for anyone to read and evaluate. (No, I don't have time to cite 27 cross-references right now... I just read links posted in various collections of scientific journals.)

There is **NOT** an either/or about sexual preference... there is a complex continuum of variations from total, absolute heterosexuality to some sort of bisexuality to complete, overwhelming homosexuality.... with cultural and social influences operating on exactly we react to the hormonal % we are given. (and I haven't even mentioned various asexual examples or those born with organs of BOTH sexes in various configurations).

If you have a compulsion to view the variations in human behavior as agreeing with or denying some higher 'purpose', that says more about your psychology than about 'natural law'.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 01:17 AM

"There is **NOT** an either/or about sexual preference... there is a complex continuum of variations from total, absolute heterosexuality to some sort of bisexuality to complete, overwhelming homosexuality...."

Bill, Alfred Kinsey said essentially the same thing back in the 1950s, and all kinds of people like Ake shat all over his head at the time. Simply found the idea unacceptable.

Nevertheless. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 02:26 AM

See how Keith A Hole of Hertford picks up on an issue that health providers battle with, the depth of coding, and reckons The NHS makes it up. This is for two reasons.

Firstly he tries to attack anything I or two or three others say regardless and claims his google trawl doesn't give immediate quotes we use. He cannot understand we use our own words rather than cut and paste the words of others. He came a cropper when he did that with a far right political organisation earlier this year.

Secondly, this rather technical instrument, depth of coding represents the accuracy of the published data on health issues. The Health Protection Agency moan, quite rightly, that sloppy recording by health providers (including private providers) puts a far too wide tolerance on the figures. The consultants in public health who have to advise on types and priorities of services have to weigh the raw data against trawls of other intelligence. Once this is done, corrected ( to a degree ) figures are given back to The HPA. They in turn keep their original figures as their source and acknowledge refinements by public health and commissioners. Sexual health is a small part of it. The largest area is avoidable mortality. When you hear of The NHS chief medical director Bruce Keogh putting a hospital in "special measures" it is normally a concern over mortality figures. Occasionally this is found to be quality of care but in the vast majority of figures it is depth of coding. A trust in Yorkshire went from being one of the worst to one of the best in the Dr Foster ratings without a single quality improvement measure but focussing on coding. Or in other words, a man brought through A&E In the middle of the night died of the cancer he had, not the chest infection the emergency services diagnosed when collecting him from the care home. (A typical rather than extreme example.)

Sorry to bore people but this is my work. I don't know much about creationist nonsense or what Earl Haigh had for breakfast whilst earning the title Butcher of The Somme but I am acutely aware of those despicable bodies who twist health data to justify why they hate sections of society. We see it in sexual health with gay people and we see it in tuberculosis with the travelling community. We even see high incidence of type II diabetes with Asian origin people being used in the economic migrant debate.

I recognise the arguments Akenhateon and Keith A Hole of Hertford use, because those responsible for planning and delivery of healthcare services keep a watchful eye on opinions that can reach politicians in order to combat them with the real picture.

Keith rattles on about The British Medical Journal. I subscribe and read it every week. Numerous papers published over coding. Numerous papers published over planning sexual health services. I co authored a paper on the effect of coding on mortality outliers when working in regulation. Not being a health service professional, my input was board level assurance versus false flag funding.

Don't call me a liar Keith. Every time I say anything on any matter you start your tirade. You have already been exposed as a supporter of a far right group who advocate suppressing the gay community, so your credibility is about as good as Akenhateon's.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 03:23 AM

Your post I mostly had no problem with, except you said it was sourced from BMJ.
Which facts?
You repeated your claim that the November HPA figures were inaccurate.
You failed to substantiate that the first time, which suggest that you can not substantiate it.
Can you, or is it made up?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 03:30 AM

You DID state that the November HPA report was "preliminary."
That was unquestionably a lie.
You DID state that it was "superseded" by another.
That was unquestionably a lie.
You are a liar and must expect all you statements to be challenged.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 04:04 AM

Bill....Oh but their is a demographic which covers male to male sexual intercourse.
Its very simple really, it's called MSM (men who have sex with men) and for some reason that demographic contains an epidemic of sexually transmitted diseases. Its not too complicated really...don't try and muddy the waters.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 04:23 AM

Bugger me. You are cutting and pasting your own words now Keith.

If you don't have a problem with the vast majority of what I put, at least accept it all comes from the same source. ie What I do to keep busy these days, healthcare planning. HPA are a source of data. They cannot be definitive. They exist to protect not collect, so revise constantly as other data (look up hrg if you must) is processed and available. The picture NHS commissioners then use is from a meta analysis (look that up too if you want to.)

You are shouting Liar! over what amounts to less than ten actual cases out of twelve thousand positive indications. By March, we will have corroborated figures from the mid term indicators you see as October figures. It isn't worth the smoke screen you put up to discredit such figures. Healthcare is a political beast at present. I would urge people to look at the reality available rather than skewed commentary.



For everyone else. The reason I have waffled on at length on health is to try and put this corker to bed. Those who hate sections of society pretend to care for them by pointing out matters regarding their health. Akenhateon does this all the time. Whilst there is reason to address matters that are a risk to a few people, society does so, and as adequately as is possible. Strip the false health shit from his words and you are left with the clear hatred.

Frightening that such views not only exist but gain ground amongst even mainstream political parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 05:46 AM

more lies.
The HPA report was about 2012, and published November 2013.
It was definitive.
Why not give us a link to the report that says HPA figures are inaccurate?
I asked you weeks ago and all we got was a fake link.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 08:04 AM

Tep

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 09:07 AM

"A few people affected" why do you continually lie and obfuscate Ian?

As I have said many times, if heterosexuals were affected at even half the rates of male homosexuals, society would cease to function.
Lifetime healthcare alone would be unsustainable.

Yet you say there is no need for concern?
That there is no need for a radical programme of targeted testing and contact tracing?
You are heartless and agenda driven.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 10:49 AM

Because if you weren't lying, or being confused, and I expect it to be a combination, society would have ceased to function a long time ago. Viroaemia is the transmission medium and women can be infected in the same way and by the same means as men.

Because we have a programme of testing for people who feel at risk together with encouraging results from contact tracing, I can report that if other at risk groups behaved as responsibly as male gays at risk, we would be even better.

The large number of gay men coming forward for testing is good news, an excellent responsible approach by all but the inevitable hard to reach groups and the fact that nearly half of those testing positive last year were gay men is a sign of the system working, you thick cunt.

I welcome debate on reaching out to promiscuous women and heterosexual men, substance misuse addicts and those who form sexual relationships with them. The upward figures for gay men is good, more from other at risk groups would be better.

I certainly don't welcome debate on the merits of stigmatising gay men, many of whom apparently find anal sex as off putting as I do, if I were to think about it. I don't welcome any input by evil minded shallow witted small men who think it is acceptable to use words such as perverts or hint at paedophilia as an aspect of being gay. I doubt anyone shares your wish to force gay men to register with the authorities and be assaulted, by testing without their consent. It's against the law for starters.

If you must carry on your fascination of the bedrooms of others, may I suggest visiting websites that cater for such voyeuristic fantasy?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 11:00 AM

Just noticed that a fairly long post I did has come out as tep.


Bugger me.

Tep appears to be shorthand for a long post droning on about Keith A Hole of Hertford and his confusion, although calling me a liar doesn't help. I think I said something along the lines of him purposely confusing 2012 with 2012/13 April to March. The report he refers to, six months after the cut off date, I received it October, still awaits verification from HRG returns from commissioners blah blah. I reiterated that the HPA adjustment was from their log in section as I have access in order to carry out Cochrane searches, and didn't realise it wasn't the public site. I have already mentioned that but no, Keith, being the jumped up politically motivated little shit he is, keeps harping on in case someone hadn't seen my post on the subject and might think he is being truthful.

I don't know about atheism being militant, but with Keith's record with terminological inexactitudes, it appears part time semi Christians are too when it comes to supporting anything that stigmatises gay people.

Your church must be proud of you. Although if there were such a thing as Jesus, I reckon his head would be in his hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 11:31 AM

"So much for tolerance….the thought police are here!."

How the heck can I be the thought police? I'm worried about the ludicrous tripe spouted by nasty fundamentalists without a reasonable thought in their head.

But as the default position of any adherent to any religion is that everyone who entertains any view that doesn't accord with their own is wrong (i.e.. lotsa people) then you'd expect some carping.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 12:05 PM

Now lets get this clear Ian, you want to see more infections showing up, as that means more men are asking to be tested?

I want to see more testing to stop men transmitting the disease to others.

Don't you realise that every infection you wish for means a life sentence for someone.
Haven't you got things arse for elbow Ian?
If your aim is to confuse everybody here, you are sure succeeding.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 12:17 PM

ake: "...don't try and muddy the waters"

I was replying directly to your claims, which ARE a muddying of the waters.
Your assertions about statistics and demographics by themselves are both misleading and often inaccurate, but when you attempt to make a case for their relevance by invoking careless science (attributing 'purpose' where none exists in the sense you claim), you are simply using the entire mish-mash of shaky correlations to support your own prejudices and subjective attitudes.
Dave the Gnome has asked you once again to enlarge on your ideas for **doing something**:

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 12:52 PM

..but you largely avoid this debate.

   EVERYONE would like to find a fair, easy way to rid the world of HIV/AIDS, but you have, both implicitly and explicitly, made it clear that you wold find a simple **cure** inadequate. You try to artificially define one aspect of human evolution as 'unnatural' simply because it occurs in a minority of the population.... and because you have some deep-seated aversion. Then you ramble on about MSM 'statistics'. I would bet that if there had never BEEN an HIV virus, you would still condemn homosexuality and find some other 'statistic' to wave about.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 02:07 PM

Wrong Musket.
The report I linked to was "Published November 2013: data to end December 2012"
http://www.hpa.org.uk/webc/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1317140300680

Not a "preliminary" report. You lied.
Not "superseded." You lied.
Not "the mid term indicators you see as October figures." You lied.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 03:23 AM

Keith.

The person behind Musket does this for a living. The person behind Musket uses the figures. The person behind Musket is part of the work that is looking to find the appropriate replacement for the data gathering work that is presently shared between HPA and Dr Foster. What is most funny is that you will have read some commentary (though not on sexual health per se) by me as regarding data source.

You meanwhile have made it perfectly clear that you use your religious justifications to treat gay people as inferior.

Calling those charged with helping find answers liars when they simply used preliminary figures not in the public domain yet, by accident, doesn't make you look good. It makes you look the right wing activist you are.

You spread poison over history, poison over the Middle East, poison over persecution when those of your faith are in the driving seat and your favourite word is "liar." Over use of that word to denounce normal people didn't work ultimately for other propagandists do I doubt a fool such as yourself could ever stand a chance.

Now take your best friend out for a drink and discuss new ways of drawing division in society. If either of you had the intelligence and opportunity, you'd at least have the motive.

All this because you lied a few weeks ago and was embarrassed to be found out.

Pathetic really.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 04:19 AM

Ian, you say you have been "advising" the health agencies for years, if this true, why are male homosexual infection rates still at epidemic levels and rising?
If you "advice" had offered some measure of success, I would be the first to give you credit.
As it is, your "advice" seems to be absolutely useless.

The worst possible thing that can happen as far as homosexuals are concerned is that their rising HIV and SYPHILLIS infection rates are hidden under an overall fall in all other demographics.
I see that would suit agenda driven people like you perfectly.
I don't think you really care about anything except you phoney equality agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 04:20 AM


You meanwhile have made it perfectly clear that you use your religious justifications to treat gay people as inferior.

You have to lie about me, because I expose your ignorance.
Whatever your job, you got your figures wrong as proved by this post of mine.
It starts with a quote from you.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 08:05 AM

The Terence Higgins Trust figures, 51%, and HPA figures for the same period, 43%. How can that be?

It can not be.
You were wrong.
Again.
HPA.
"diagnoses among MSM accounted for 3,250 (51%) of new
diagnoses in 2012, the highest number ever reported."
http://www.hpa.org.uk/webc/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1317140300680

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 04:43 AM

Bill...."Dave the Gnome has asked you once again to enlarge on your ideas for **doing something**...you have largely ignored this.

Unusually for you Bill, this is quite untrue, I have set out my view on what should be done to halt this epidemic of transmission many times here.....to have it misrepresented again and again by Ian.
Targeted testing and contact tracing is required......simply waiting for a *cure* to miraculously appear is not an option in this case, the new infection rates are horrific enough as it is.

"I would bet that if there had never BEEN an HIV virus, you would still condemn homosexuality and find some other 'statistic' to wave about."

That comment is beneath contempt, given the time and effort that I have expended here to bring this particular situation to the attention of other members and the suffering which is taking place amongst male homosexuals.

You used to command some credibility in my eyes regarding what you post here on most subjects, you are rapidly losing credibility in the eyes of anyone who values fair comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 10:45 AM

I have set out my view on what should be done to halt this epidemic of transmission many times here.....to have it misrepresented again and again by Ian.
Targeted testing and contact tracing is required

Completely, blatantly and transparently untrue ake. ALL you have proposed is compulsory testing and tracing. You have never said how you propose to enforce the compulsory testing and what you propose to do once you have the results. I suspect I know why you will not tell us as does every other right minded person.

So, once again, how are you going to enforce this compulsory testing and once you know that someone has the virus what do you propose to do with them?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 11:26 AM

Ian, you say you have been "advising" the health agencies for years, if this true, why are male homosexual infection rates still at epidemic levels and rising?
If you "advice" had offered some measure of success, I would be the first to give you credit.
As it is, your "advice" seems to be absolutely useless.

Sure. Until you spot the logical fallacy here. It wasn't difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 12:05 PM

ake- you call my 'bet' "beneath contempt", even after acknowledging that I am known for trying to be fair. Almost everyone who reads your remarks gets the impression that you are against certain behaviors, rather than just the disease. If this is incorrect, please clarify and *I* will modify my language. Your suggestions about compulsory testing and monitoring don't make clear exactly HOW officialdom would determine who is to BE tested, and what would happen to anyone who tests positive.

Quite apart from this, you have not replied in any way to my point about an improper use of the word 'purpose'. Your belief that homosexuality is 'unnatural' seems to be a driving force behind your concern to employ compulsion against men who are identified as homosexual... or even any man who engages in MSM.
There are many diseases in humans that need new medical treatments and concerns, but you define HIV/AIDS as somehow .... immoral?... as well as sad & dangerous because you see the vectors as 'unnatural'. Continued citing of statistics (which are quite debatable, according to different sources) does not 'prove' that your basic approach is fair... so be careful how you describe my opinions as unfair.

You also cite mostly UK (and sometime African) statistics, but since HIV is a world-wide issue, and people travel a lot, any sort of compulsory testing/monitoring opens up a Pandora's Box of international law and compliance.

Be assured, ALL of us... even those who criticize you... hope for controls and cures, but education and science are the first choices of most of us, not Draconian, compulsory 'testing' of.... who?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 12:17 PM

Worm.

I have never been an advisor on STDs. I have never been an advisor on dentistry, ingrowing toenails or breast cancer. Clever professionals in healthcare do that.

For what it is worth, I, in different guises as a Chairman of a CHC, PCT, and a Health Authority, advisor at DH, regulator, author of board governance guidance and most recently as a director of transformation and improvement for a large teaching trust have done my bit. Most of that "bit" has been challenging and uncovering failures in health and social care, far less time helping organise it. I have been critical of some sexual health services in the past but am encouraged by the emphasis in recent years.

One bit includes having designed services for sexual health, substance misuse and other hard to reach groups in a particular inner city. Although I don't need that experience to recognise lies to incite hatred. Using health scare stories to push this criminal agenda is particularly shocking. Also illegal to publish where you live, but hate doesn't recognise decent behaviour.

Your information is disingenuous. Keith, who reckons he knows how to tie his shoe laces gets a single part of a jigsaw of data and waves it to prove queers need exterminating. You are not in his league. If he bristles at that accusation, he can start redeeming himself by being less cavalier with data. Twelve thousand new HIV + treatments started, about half were false flag. Of the rest, about half were in the bracket you get upset over. That is the 3250 he rattles on about, which PHE have refined to a provisional 2990 ish. This may move as the data is refined. It takes time as data is based on the diagnoses and treatments for alpha presentation, and many STDs are secondary in reporting terms, (although important for patient care...)

Levels are rising, in all risk groups. More gay men come forward than other risk groups. Figures are rising as irresponsible people, reading bad advice, seem to think all you need is a pill now to stop AIDS. Yes, but at great cost. You however, supported by your friend Keith, push one small statistic that has been taken out of context by many, and sadly in commentary by regulatory bodies, oblivious of how it is snapped up by those who want to use it to persecute.

There is an issue still, despite advances in both encouraging safe sex and medical advances in antiretrovirals , and one particular risk group is gay men, and yes, it is believed that there are still a couple of thousand undetected HIV+ cases in gay men, as there are many more suspected cases in other risk groups. The higher prevalence is due to more tests in that group. I repeat, the gay screening is a sign of success. The issue is other risk groups. Still far too many, but compared to chlamydia? Not scratching the surface.

Talk of epidemic is somewhat erroneous to say the least. There is a huge epidemic in many parts of the world, and mostly this is through birth, sex (heterosexual and homosexual) hygiene and poor medical care.

You seem to apply the awful statistics to The UK. You also apply it to gay men.

Both assumptions are not only wrong, but are dangerous if believed as people would be led to believe gay lifestyle wasn't natural or was a danger to health. If you are perpetuating that myth, you are an evil person.

Very evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 12:33 PM

Notwithstanding all that Musket, you stated the HPA figure was 43% when it actually was 51%.
Not much of a discrepancy, but you decided to make it one, and embarked on a campaign of lies and smears to hide the fact that you were wrong.
Again.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 12:58 PM

I quoted the figures. You made a meal of a few percent to look clever. I have access to adjusted figures, you had the best publicly available. I gave you a link. It didn't work as I hadn't noticed I had Athens on when searching it, meaning I got into the intranet site, which I have said time and time again, but keep saying I gave a duff link in case someone reckons you might have a point.

You them insisted on using that difference to call me a liar.

True to form.

Of course creating a smokescreen is the real purpose isn't it? The health reasons for victimising gay people is what you need to keep on peoples's minds eh?

Despite it being bullshit.
Despite gay lifestyle not being a health hazard.
Despite most people, gay and straight being averse to anal sex.
Despite those who do using protection in the main.
Despite the riding tide of monogamous long term relationships.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 01:28 PM

YOU chose to make an issue of it.
You claimed it had been "superseded" by an "interim" report.
Not true.
It was the final figure for 2012.
You said it would be updated in March.
Not true.
It was the final figure.
I do not believe you have any other information, and that is why you can not give a link.

You should have just shrugged off the small discrepancy, but your arrogance and hubris would not let you.
Silly Musket.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link.
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 02:21 PM

Stu.    Your default position, which you hold religiously, to the point of bad mouthing your positions detractors , is that only naturalistic causes are allowable. This is not provable, and infact the argument from design, and the large lack of evidence for the all from nothing via no one alternative origins story, is a good argument for a creator .

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 03:53 PM

Well I for one await the 2012/13 statistics that PHE will publish.


Oy pete. Your jibe "religiously "aimed at Stu uses the term negatively.

Well done.

Snag is, only religion is done religiously. Reality tends to be realistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 04:08 PM

Ian you are simply waffling.
"There is no epidemic amongst MSM?"

Both CDC and HPA call it an epidemic, but I didn't expect you to know that, if you didn't even know the correct percentage rates.

"You however, supported by your friend Keith, push one small statistic that has been taken out of context by many, and sadly in commentary by regulatory bodies, oblivious of how it is snapped up by those who want to use it to persecute."

What that means without the Orwellian overtones dear readers, is that Ian would like details of the epidemic of STDs amongst MSM, buried amongst falling infection rates in other demographics; now that is not good for male homosexuals, nor for society at large, who will have huge costs for lifetime health care to find because of an epidemic given free rein.

It is though, very good for Ian's personal agenda of phoney equality ...the epidemic must be allowed to continue unabated, as to target the demographic most hugely at risk would smack of inequalit

Have you ever heard anything so cruel or so stupid?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 05:28 PM

What we both called HPA is now PHE.
Did you not even know that musket?
Follow my HPA link and you will find it is an HPE report.

So, I linked to the HPA/PHE 2012 figures published in November 2013.
What other ones are you talking about?
Do you even know?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 06:28 PM

"I would bet that if there had never BEEN an HIV virus, you would still condemn homosexuality and find some other 'statistic' to wave about." Bill D

"That comment is beneath contempt, given the time and effort that I have expended here to bring this particular situation to the attention of other members and the suffering which is taking place amongst male homosexuals." Achy

You are a liar, a bigot and stupid to boot!

You have frequently responded to the question "If a cure were found, would that change your view of Gays?" with the response "There are other considerations!"

It is obvious to all here that your detestation of Gays is intrinsic to your personality and nothing, but nothing, will change that.

YOU OWE BILL AN ABJECT APOLOGY!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 06:40 PM

"You should have just shrugged off the small discrepancy, but your arrogance and hubris would not let you.
Silly Musket."

Are you really the thicko you present as, whenever you get involved in a thread?

It is part of Musket's job that he has access to latest statistics, often long before they enter the public domain.

These figures you cannot access, not because he made them up, but because you are not yet permitted access.

Stupid Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 02:29 AM

Those figures ARE in the public domain.
He was wrong, but rather than admit it he pretends that only he can see the true figures.
He can not even give a link.
You are so gullible!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 04:34 AM

Perhaps if you bother reading my comments about the gradual demise of The Health protection Agency in this and other threads, you may answer your own question.

With regard to England, Public Health England is the recipient of the public health functions of the old PCTs. The fragmentation at this time is unfortunate as it is moving to local government, whereas the observatory function remains with NHS England.

Here's the clincher, prat.

The individual reports for the period 2012/13 still await verified commissioning data such as HRG coding in order to plan 2014/15 budgets.

If you look hard enough, you might even see live links to Dept of Health functions that stopped being updated a few years ago. I am not expressing a view here, I am not putting an idea forward. I am saying what is, and how it is. Lies and spin don't change how the mess The NHS is in through the government 's reforms isn't understood by me or anyone else fully. But I reckon we know a little more about our world than an armchair google trawler.

Oh, and stop quoting foreign statistics and applying them to here. You can't compare a system that is universal with systems that are fragmented and based on access.

The picture for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales is less fragmented, but smaller demographic. They are getting buggered around less.



Worm. There is no hope for you. I will ask all the gay people to be careful when in Scotland though, to make sure you don't catch anything off their debased perverse lifestyle eh?

Epidemic. Infectious disease that is widespread in a community at a particular time. Not even chlamydia gets that accolade. Don't compare the healthcare use of the word with newspaper and far right / religious website use of the word.

If you were intelligent and wanted to sensationalise, you could say that in the '80 s it was pandemic in The West, and remains pandemic in certain parts of the world. It is also argued that anything is potentially pandemic due to international travel.....

Here's a WHO statistic for you. Prevalence of HIV is largely inversely proportional to acceptance of gay lifestyle.

Interesting.... You take the maths around that with a pinch of salt as it is not strictly known if it is a fact or not, but the spread certainly increases in areas where ignorance and blame culture is rife.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 04:46 AM

Musket, you said "The Terence Higgins Trust figures, 51%, and HPA figures for the same period, 43%. How can that be?"

You got it wrong.
The HPA figures for the period were 51%, and I linked to the PHE report filed on the old HPA web address to prove it.

A normal person would shrug it off and move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 04:57 AM

Troubador...Sorry but you are wrong and misquoting me.

The question that I am often asked is "If there was no STD epidemic amongst homosexuals, would you still be opposed to gay marriage?"

To which you rightly say I reply..."there are other considerations".
By which I mean the redefinition of marriage and the effect of that redefinition on other sectors of the community, like committed Christians, many of whom see homosexuality as a sin.

I can assure you Guest, that I have absolutely nothing to apologise to Bill for, but if Bill thinks that I have, he can speak to me by PM and does not require assistance from you. He is a very able debater in his own right.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:15 AM

Latest figures from CDC published Dec 2013.

63% of all new cases of HIV in the US, come from the MSM demographic.

But that is not quite the whole story.

78% of all new HIV cases amongst men, come from the MSM demographic.


Please let us stop denying a truth which is becoming more obvious every day. Let us start discussing ways in which this epidemic can be halted, and stop the stupid arguments over whether it exists or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:18 AM

If we stop calling it a sin, will Jesus lower the infection rates?



I clicked on a thread earlier called explosive diarrhea. I made the mistake of thinking that Keith A hole of Hertford or the worm had started it.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:34 AM

"Here's a WHO statistic for you. Prevalence of HIV is largely inversely proportional to acceptance of gay lifestyle"

Bullshit... Firstly, have you any data to back up that statement?
Secondly...You have said often that the majority of the population now support "gay marriage" and have a positive view of homosexuality, but infection rates have risen consistently at an average of 8/10% annually over the last ten years.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 07:20 AM

Incidence of infections being treated has risen, and that's not only good news, but isn't an increase in infection rates. For that to be true, more unknown infections that cannot be measured would have to be assumed.

Not a single person has to support gay marriage. It is a legal right. Just like Ginger people can marry blondes. Nothing to support if it doesn't affect you. Nothing to hate if it doesn't affect you either, cretin.

I didn't give evidence for the commentary on the WHO annual report 2012/13. I also said that they didn't either.

Read a full sentence before waffling on about sin, justice, perversion, hate, whatever.

Hopefully, I won't hear the "whatever" as it gets muffled as you bury yourself in your hole worm.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 09:39 AM

Let us start discussing ways in which this epidemic can be halted

I have asked over and over again for your plans for this ake and you seem to be avoiding the issue. How do YOU believe this 'epidemic' can be halted. Not by compulsory testing for sure. Testing victims does not cure viruses. And how do YOU propose that testing is made compulsory?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 09:48 AM

My , my, You are getting desperate Ian.

"78% of newly diagnosed HIV infections amongst men in the US, are from the MSM demographic." (CDC)

Is that better?.......No its worse, worse than it was ten years ago, before civil union, or homosexual "marriage".

So your WHO statistic is either made up, or simply wrong.
With your posting history, I would guess "made up".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 09:49 AM

People who test positive receive antiretroviral treatment.
This makes them much less infectious.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 10:06 AM

"The large majority of new infections stem from MSM unaware of their
infection [4]."
page 9
http://www.hpa.org.uk/webc/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1317140300680

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 12:31 PM

Bloody hell Dave!.....For the hundredth time, I'm talking about halting the transmission of the disease, the scientists may never discover a cure.
Keith has kindly provided some information, but almost as important is contact tracing for those who test positive. The large numbers of MSM who are unaware of their HIV status will pass the disease on to all of their sexual contacts if they indulge in risk taking.

Frequent testing and contact tracing for MSM is a must.
As I have said many times, hopefully the homosexual community can ensure that NOT to be frequently tested is unacceptable socially.

It would be too costly and time consuming to test everyone in the country at the same rate...but the MSM demographic is massively over represented in the new infection returns and requires to be targeted if the epidemic is to be slowed or halted.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 12:59 PM

This document, published October rather than November stated on the website by the way, is interesting reading and parts of it form the backbone of commissioning for the coming period. I read it when published and our people go back for updated figures now and then as bidding for department funding is already underway. The copy on the web now has range of estimates, whereas the first edition just gave the mid point, so already more useful than before.

The parts that are being questioned at present include the estimation of how many undiagnosed there are, as the 21900 is contested by providers on the basis of unequal modelling. NHS England is advising CCGs (commissioners) to ensure secondary diagnosis is collected so the revised figures reflect more accurately. There is a suspicion that there are more cases out there, especially in the younger female group and with substance misuse users, many of whom go from diagnosis to antiretroviral treatment without figuring in numbers derived from screening. (They visit their GP with symptoms and are referred to secondary care, so screening isn't part of their pathway. Whereas the vast majority of gay positive diagnoses are picked up from screening.)

Public Health England will be collating far more useful figures for healthcare planning than the HPA have done, so we will see less need for local interpretation or late clarification as they eventually start working. Mrs Musket is the regional cancer lead and although it is not helpful till more posts are filled and the system beds in, the public health input to the cancer networks is already promising. Hopefully, given time, the likes of Keith can read definitive rather than professionally challenged annual reports in future with regard to sexual health, ingrowing toenails and Lurgy.

Funnily enough, I asked the lead for sexual health at one of our CCGs today what she thought the 2012/13 figures will end up as, and she said once preliminary adjustments are closed, March ish, it should be just under 6000, or 8900 ish if you factor in secondary diagnosis. (We were talking cardio thoracic surgery, but I am interested in the figures from her perspective and mentioned websites where bigots are using the figures to justify hatred.) Whilst more useful, factoring in such things next year will mean the headline figures will rise, causing those of a criminal tendency to salivate at the idea of more need to round up gay people.....

The new system is far closer to other parts of The UK. Even the worm will be able to look at what affects his neighbours rather than non universal figures from other countries.

Approx 7300 gay men are unaware that they may be HIV+ from an estimated 21900 overall. Still far too many, but not in the league of countries which legally oppress gay people. I reckon WHO have a point, although ignorance and fear are rife in all countries, not to mention bigotry and homophobia. Eh worm? If there are 21900 out there and only 7300 are gay, not much point in rounding up gays after all. Unless you have a final solution in mind, bastard. Only 33%.....

After all, 45% of new diagnoses are heterosexual sex derived, so your plan to round people up will have to include them too. Oh, and the shortfall in the maths there is accounted for with other causes such as needlestick, transfusion error, birth etc. Want them on your register too?



If good people haven't the time or will to read all the above, just take this point from the data the worm and Keith keep referring to;

There are believed to be approximately 21,900 people in The UK who are unaware that they nay be HIV+.    33% of them are gay. 45 % of them are heterosexual. The rest are at risk through other factors than sex.

So, can we please put this myth to bed that it is a gay issue?

The figures suggest gay people are more likely to respond to offers for screening, hence in 2011 for the first time, gay diagnoses overtook heterosexual ones. The concern is, as anyone can read in the link Keith supplied, more of a straight sex issue.

So we are left with pure hatred based on ignorance and puerile interest in the bedrooms of others. When the worm uses words such as pervert, he fails to see the irony.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 01:28 PM

Keith can read definitive rather than professionally challenged annual reports

The PHE report is "professionally challenged" according to who?
If just you Musket, I will carry them.

The concern is, as anyone can read in the link Keith supplied, more of a straight sex issue.
No.
Hetero numbers are falling.
MSMs continue to rise.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 02:38 PM

For the hundredth time, I'm talking about halting the transmission of the disease, the scientists may never discover a cure.

Still evading the issue, ake. Whether it is the hundredth time or not, I don't know. HOW would you 'halt transmission'. HOW would you enforce compulsory testing. Simple questions. Why will you not answer?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 04:09 PM

It is not my job to work out how the agencies target the demographic which contains 78% of new male HIV infections, but it will have to be done and soon.

As Joe mentioned further up the thread, there are means of compulsion which do not involve criminalisation
If the agencies are not prepared to bite the bullet the time has surely arrived for male homosexuals to regulate themselves.
The "opt out" scheme seems a good start, this means that male homosexuals will be routinely tested when presenting themselves for medical treatment unless they "opt out and refuse to be tested.
The agencies seem quite keen on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 04:28 PM

"So, can we please put this myth to bed that it is a gay issue?"

Are you mad? It is a huge issue if you happen to be a male homosexual, not much of an issue if you are a heterosexual who cares only for his phoney equality agenda.

In talking of MSM, you are talking about less than 2% of the population, yet on your figures they account for 33% of estimated undiagnosed HIV infections.

Surely you cant be stupid enough to think that is not a "gay issue"?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:02 PM

30 seconds of searching

USA Center for Disease Control:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/HIVFactSheets/Progress/Trends.htm

from that link: (my bold & underlining)

"The nation's investment in HIV prevention has contributed to dramatic reductions in the annual number of new infections since the peak of the epidemic in the mid-1980s, and an overall stabilization of new infections since the mid-1990s (from roughly 130,000 new infections to approximately 50,000 annually).7,8 While new infections per year continue at too high a level, this stabilization is in itself a sign of progress. With continued increases in the number of people living with HIV thanks to effective HIV medications, there are more opportunities for HIV transmission than ever before.9 Yet, the annual number of new infections has not increased, indicating that HIV testing, prevention, and treatment programs are effectively reducing the rate of transmission overall. Declines in new infections have also been documented in several key populations over time, underscoring the impact and importance of concentrated prevention efforts:

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:14 PM

Read to the end of the text.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:15 PM

It is an issue. 45% of transmission is from heterosexual sex, 33% from gay sex.

It is a sex issue. (It's a needlestick issue, a birth issue and a healthcare acquired issue too, but 78% of it is sexually transmitted.)

That is figures derived from trend. The providers working on the ground feel it is far higher and The Royal College of Obstetricians and gynaecologists report that STDs from promiscuous lifestyle in women is the worrying sexual health area of concern at present. Keith says heterosexual transmission is falling but it isn't. The trend is based on apples and pears. The overtaking of gay transmission in 2011 is acknowledged as being possibly down to people coming forward for screening. The report acknowledges this, but papers I have read in BMJ show through Cochrane reviews that The NHS is right to concentrate on encouraging heterosexual high risk groups to come forward.

The only compulsion is to drag Akenhateon in to see if he has been having unprotected anal sex with prostitutes, as he can't be trusted to come forward for screening otherwise. If he disagrees, he also therefore must disagree with gay people being treated the same?

What is the difference between him and a gay person? What is the difference between a gay person and me? I know the difference between him and everyone else. Respectability.

Disgusting bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:25 PM

"read to the end of the text"

I did:


"young MSM are the only risk group in which new infections are increasing. This underscores the need to sustain and re-invigorate prevention efforts "

As I said before, science & education must continue. Just as education among young people about ALL sex related issues from birth control to disease must continue.
The problem will not go away unless & until some medical cure (like vaccination) is discovered.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:39 PM

It is not my job to work out how the agencies target the demographic which contains 78% of new male HIV infections, but it will have to be done and soon.


No, it isn't. So why keep harping on about it? And you STILL haven't given us your proposals on how to 'halt the transmission of the disease'. Why?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:47 PM

meanwhile...

Back to religion

Some bits fit well with the current debate too

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:57 PM

oh my, Dave... that set of cartoons ought to be made into little books and given away on street corners.. right beside the guy waving the bible.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 07:59 PM

Thank you Bill for pointing out the crucial role of education. When I pointed this out to tunnel-vision ake some months ago I was ridiculed. I concluded, privately, that ake considers education to be a potential inconvenient impediment to his homophobic message. Ake needs high infection rates just like the Pope needs high abortion rates. Ake and the Pope are the champions of continuing misery. One day, perhaps, they'll both be sainted, maybe on the same day as Mother Teresa. Are you a Catholic, though, ake?

As for this:

phoney equality agenda

I'd love ake to expand on what this is supposed to mean. Or maybe I wouldn't. Sad bugger.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 08:07 PM

Brilliant stuff, Dave, brilliant. Musket, is there room for a third equi-Messiah? Christian bastards have a "trinity" after all...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 01:19 AM

Who am I to judge?

Oh.... Hang on. I'm a co messiah. I'm supposed to judge.

Or at least, like other Messiahs, have others do the judging in my name.

I suppose we can do it as part of our New Years Honours list ?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 01:42 AM

Keith says heterosexual transmission is falling but it isn't.

No!
HPE says it, and see also Bill's link.

HPE November sme link.
"Over the last decade, the number of
new diagnoses among heterosexuals declined in England, especially in London. In 2012,
numbers were highest in London (1,020; 35%) followed by the PHE regions Midlands and the
East of England (590) and the North (400) and South of England (370).
d
In Scotland, Wales
and Northern Ireland, the numbers of new diagnoses acquired heterosexually were lower, with
110, 50 and 40, respectively (Figure 5).

In 2012, a higher number of heterosexual women (1,530) than men (1,050) were newly
diagnosed with HIV. The median age of diagnosis was 39 years overall; 42 years among men
and 37 years among women.

The proportion of new diagnoses that were recently acquired HIV infections was 6% (30/440)
among heterosexual men and 8% (50/640) among women."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 01:46 AM

The link again. Page 11
http://www.hpa.org.uk/webc/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1317140300680

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 01:53 AM

Dave I answered, honestly, "no" to every question.
Does that mean I pass, or the dear old CofE did?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 04:36 AM

Dave, Steve, and Bill....The health agencies have been pushing "education" since the 1980's....and it seems to be working....for every demographic but MSM, because MSM is the only demographic within which new infection rates for all STD's are rising.
Does this mean that male homosexuals are more stupid than any other section of society? I don't think so, is it perhaps that male homosexuals are more deeply addicted to "risk taking",more addicted to anonymous sex, multiple sexual partners? ...probably.
The time has come for male homosexuals to take responsibility for their behaviour, either regulate their sexual activity, or be regulated.
How long do you propose to wait before some meaningful action is taken on the situation? Another three years at the present rising rates of infection and we will be seeing MSM HIV rates at over 90%.
Will you still be sticking your heads in the sand?

Bill of course young homosexuals are the section most affected, they are the section most sexually active.

No matter how much you twist and turn, the incontrovertible truth is that in the US and UK the demographic which is massively over represented in all Sexually transmitted disease is MSM

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 04:36 AM

Dave, Steve, and Bill....The health agencies have been pushing "education" since the 1980's....and it seems to be working....for every demographic but MSM, because MSM is the only demographic within which new infection rates for all STD's are rising.
Does this mean that male homosexuals are more stupid than any other section of society? I don't think so, is it perhaps that male homosexuals are more deeply addicted to "risk taking",more addicted to anonymous sex, multiple sexual partners? ...probably.
The time has come for male homosexuals to take responsibility for their behaviour, either regulate their sexual activity, or be regulated.
How long do you propose to wait before some meaningful action is taken on the situation? Another three years at the present rising rates of infection and we will be seeing MSM HIV rates at over 90%.
Will you still be sticking your heads in the sand?

Bill of course young homosexuals are the section most affected, they are the section most sexually active.

No matter how much you twist and turn, the incontrovertible truth is that in the US and UK the demographic which is massively over represented in all Sexually transmitted disease is MSM

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 06:25 AM

We heard you first time worm. It didn't make sense then either.

Amazing how one report, without the final figures released yet by the NHS CSUs, is Leapt upon as being as faith inducing as the bible.

Papers published in The BMJ suggest the heterosexual HIV situation is higher than figures derived from screening portray. No surprise as co morbidity and Presentation (FCE if you wish to look it up) are seemingly similar to other health intervention figures.

Luckily, those who provide sexual health services rely on myriad intelligence in system design. They also put the gay risk in perspective.

Lovely that Keith A Hole of Hertford doesn't recognise his church in Daves's link. If you have to use it as a test rather than laugh at the whole, you must be someone who tries to distinguish which baked bean caused you to fart.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 06:28 AM

Stu. Your default position, which you hold religiously, to the point of bad mouthing your positions detractors , is that only naturalistic causes are allowable. This is not provable, and infact the argument from design, and the large lack of evidence for the all from nothing via no one alternative origins story, is a good argument for a creator ."

No - my position, like my research is totally open to to question, and therefore cannot be a religious view.

I'm quite afraid of religious extremists, literalists and fundamentalists. The people who take everything as read and seek to impose their views on others regardless of whether those people agree or not. Deniers of free thought and personal freedom, who rely in falsehoods, aggression and intimidation to oppress others in spirit and body, especially women. See: Creationists.

Naturalistic causes? God is not 'natural'? You might be onto something there Pete old love.

Finally, you would't know the scientific method if you saw it Your last sentence is typically garbled, but I think I get the gist. You cannot preach to me about evidence as you really don't know what you're talking about, and in the long journey that has been this thread have made no effort to do so. A shame really, because you're missing so much.

Happy New Year to everyone on this thread! It's been a real learning experience, and that's no bad thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 07:09 AM

Well done, Keith. I think your own religion must be one of the good ones then and as I have always said, I am happy for people to believe what they like as long as they do not try to push it on me or pass it off as science to innocent children.

Ake. You are getting closer but still not told us what you propose. either regulate their sexual activity, or be regulated. How do you propose they are to 'be regulated'? Are you not getting fed up of hinting and implying without actually saying what you propose should be done?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 07:27 AM


Papers published in The BMJ suggest the heterosexual HIV situation is higher than figures derived from screening portray.

I predict with certainty that you can not produce any such.
You made it up.
The PHE figures are the official, definitive figures.
Do not expect us to disbelieve PHE and believe you instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 07:50 AM

Here we are again....nearly into 2014 and the usual collection of yeggs, gobshites, pseudo nonintellectual posers are still stumbling about in the wilderness mouthing their half formed and worst understood platitudes.

Headed by the deranged gnome they come stumbling out of the mist,eyes glazed from self abuse, dribbling from the corners of their mouths, shitty crayons dropping out of their undercrackers... saying over and over again; " we are the chosen ones, we are the ones who know everything about religion, politics and sexual orientation"

Whilst in reality they know as much about it all as my arse knows about snipe shooting.

Oh.. happy new year to you all..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 07:51 AM

Here is a BMJ paper.
It uses HPA report as a source of data.
http://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f7024

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 12:01 PM

I would say approximately 100% of published papers in BMJ use HPA figures, at a rough arsed guess.

Without official figures, there would be little point in researching the validity of source, analysis or effect. Or in other words, the rationale for publishing research in the first place. Most BMJ published papers are by medics, but some are authored or go authored by those designing transformational redesign. Keep going twat. I can't wait for you to throw one I co wrote in my face. Both developing of community services and screening criteria have my " lies " published and being used in service redesign , to think of two papers that would encompass sexual health.

I've got bad news for you. If we just used PHE or HPA and took them as definitive, we'd save millions but kill more patients by poor planning. Read the Ladybird Book of healthcare commissioning before making stupid ignorant comments such as " definitive" or asking that I be believed instead when if you read what I put, I haven't disagreed with any of it, merely explained that it isn't used in isolation and that predictions, indeed collected figures , are as good as the terms of reference for the data.

Funny how you cling to anything that supports your opinion and it must be true because teacher said so. I see how you are comfortable as a Christian now.

Do you think Max Hastings could write a book on healthcare? He wrote enough horseshit about it when he edited tabloids.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 12:12 PM

Keith says heterosexual transmission is falling but it isn't.

Yes it is.
See PHE figures for UK and also Bill's piece for US.
You were wrong yet again.

Which "tabloids" did Hastings edit Musket?
Is the answer, none?
Wrong yet again Musket, you ignorant person.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 05:00 PM

Funny how those with scientific training that are committed to evolutionism, do not see that they defend a story, which though they are willing to change when they are forced to by weight of evidence in details ,are unwilling to abandon the paradigm. If ,stu, you were so committed to following the evidence, I doubt you would be so derogatory about those with alternative ideas. I also think that you would admit that there is no evidence for the all from nout via no one storytelling.   You could ,of course, counter that revelation is no evidence for the secularist. I admit to my presupposition, that the bible account in genesis is historical. You claim scientific impartiality but your commitment to naturalistic origins amounts to the same thing...a position held by faith.                               Likewise wishing all the best to everyone here the best for 2014.    Pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 06:17 PM

"One day, perhaps, they'll both be sainted, maybe on the same day as Mother Teresa. Are you a Catholic, though, ake?"

No Mr Shaw, as far as I can make out, he's an Atheist because God made the mistake of trying to tell him how he ought to behave toward his fellow man.

A mistake repeated by (among others) yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 06:30 PM

"The question that I am often asked is "If there was no STD epidemic amongst homosexuals, would you still be opposed to gay marriage?"

Liar! The question you were asked by a number of members was "If a vaccine were found to eradicate HIV/AIDS, would your objections cease"

Your answer"There are other considerations".

This was specific to HIV among MSMs, and not any other STD.

If you persist, I will post examples from other threads to prove you a lying bigot!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 06:35 PM

evolutionism

Sorry, Pete- there is no such thing.

Nor is there any "evidence" for creationist bullshit.

You want to believe fairytales, that's OK - just keep 'em to yourself & don't plague others with 'em.

I suppopse you have problems with the Theory of Gravity as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jan 14 - 04:06 AM

Troubadour, You are not making sense.

"Liar! The question you were asked by a number of members was "If a vaccine were found to eradicate HIV/AIDS, would your objections cease"


My objections to what?.....If you mean objections to homosexuality that does not make sense, as one cannot object to something which is a fact of life. There are people who practice same gender sex and there always will be, what I am saying is that we should not be legislating in favour of this practice while the present rates of sexual disease apply to it. This legislation also applies to the redefinition of marriage to the detriment of a very large number of committed Christians, who believe homosexuality to be a sin.

I distinctly remember the question you cite, and it was definitely applied to my stance on homosexual "marriage".

Are you Ian's anonymous friend? You are coming across as slightly deranged and your writing style fits the profile I had in mind.
Better watch out.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Jan 14 - 11:37 AM

Yes, there are many people with a view on the happiness of others. Their large numbers doesn't give them respectability. If people consider the legal rights of others is wrong, I suggest they deal with their problem. The democratic rights of all preclude their view having any influence on decent people, at long last.

Why do you still put the word marriage in parentheses ? What has sex to do with being gay?



See? I am addressing the worm direct. Ok, I'm about to shower anyway but still.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jan 14 - 01:40 PM

Pete: " You claim scientific impartiality but your commitment to naturalistic origins amounts to the same thing...a position held by faith.   "

As I have mentioned before, the two positions - science & creationism - are two entirely different systems of determining truth & facts and defining evidence.
When you call a commitment to scientific inquiry 'faith', you are committing the fallacy of "equivocation".... that is, using 'faith' in two different senses. 'Faith' that science works could just be called 'confidence' or 'awareness' ... based on a logical system of testing, refining and constantly re-evaluating data. When you see a flame, you do not have 'faith' that it will burn your fingers.... you know that fire is hot. We can describe the process, measure the intensity, control the effects and predict it's actions.
Faith simply MEANS (or should be generally limited to meaning) a belief that cannot be directly tested and verified. The language exists to clarify different senses of how we think and to explicate carefully what we wish to convey. Slippery use of nomenclature to support your views is often called 'rhetorical language'. (You recognize it when a politician or an advertisement makes sneaky claims & promises.)
   When an advertisement tells you wonderful things, you are usually well advised to doubt & be skeptical... but ads can usually BE tested. Faith in something that cannot be tested & verified also causes doubt.. and you and I (and most others here) treat untestable assertions differently. ...I suppose it will always be so...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 04:38 AM

regarding healthcare statistics, where reports are written ahead of verified data but such data is always available for research

The report I used was the PHE report on the 2012 figures, up to December 2012, published November 2013.

The ARE the definitive figures.
Denying that is lying.
If it is not a lie, show us one quote that says otherwise.
http://www.hpa.org.uk/webc/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1317140300680

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 04:57 AM

Thanks Keith!

We can now dispense with the services of 700+ consultants in public health. As these are well paid consultant doctors , the savings to The NHS (and local government as they take on the public health agenda) will be huge. Think of all the support staff, never mind the surveillance role of health visitors.

Stop referring to an excellent annual précis as being the government view. It is used in conjunction with other data for commissioning and planning of services and revised versions eventually inform ONS and WHO.

I used this as an example of your "teacher said so" approach to anything and everything. One reason why we depend do much on analysing health statistics from myriad angles is that it can only be guidance. Updated historical returns are fed almost daily. The HIV update I gave last month for that period gas already been revised twice by PHE, let alone local data for the budgeting bun fights starting next week.

Prat.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 05:10 AM

If those PHE figs for 2012 have been updated, give us something other than your assurance that you are being honest this time.

They are the definitive figures.
They have not been updated.
They contradict what you say and you will claim anything rather than admit you were wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 07:04 AM

"Funny how those with scientific training that are committed to evolutionism, do not see that they defend a story, which though they are willing to change when they are forced to by weight of evidence in details ,are unwilling to abandon the paradigm. "

I'm not trained, but I am training now.

Pete, you're simply not getting the whole thing mate. I'm not "forced" to change my mind by new evidence, I question the existing evidence and seek new to find the truth.

You have zero proof the Bible is a historical document. For a person to take every work as literal is astonishing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 08:54 AM

Correct. They haven't been updated. They might but the revisions are forwarded to them for people to use in their modelling. If you have an Athens account, you can get at the web link I supplied.

Once redundant returns and FCE corrections are forwarded, a decision is made as to whether the figures expressed in terms of a range fall within that tolerance or not.

It isn't anything to do with sexual health, it's to do with health. The report you keep waving is based on best figures available and, crucially, figures that HPA have used to keep reporting fresh. That does not make them the full picture.

I understand that although Keith is trying to cover his false assertions, to anyone else, you only have me (and public health professionals) to go by. Let me give a sexual health example;

Someone attends a sexual health clinic. There is allowance for anonymous attending and results do not go to your GP unless you agree. Someone tests positive and goes into denial for a few weeks them presents to their GP. This is coded twice and the data trawl used for such as that report shows two diagnoses.

Now... Be buggered to paying twice so when the financial transactions within NHS are sorted the figures alter. Not just double diagnosis bit lots of other items that skew figures. This takes time, more than it should and the new body Public Health England hopes to address this by coordinating the consultants engaged in commissioning. Other parts of The UK are in similar situations going forward.

Im putting that for the interest of others , not Keith A of Hertford. Either he knows it already as it underpins the websites he trawls for the sake of an argument or you can't educate pork. Either could apply.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 09:07 AM

The report said that hetero infections are falling, and MSM infections rising in UK.
Bill provided evidence for the same trend in US.

You stated the opposite with absolutely nothing but your own bluster to substantiate it.

So Musket, what can you produce to show hetero infections are not falling.
If the answer is not one single thing, then tell us why you are not a ridiculous fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 10:45 AM

"Bill provided evidence for the same trend in US."

That is NOT what my link shows. It shows that the overall **RATE** of infections has slowed, but that young folks are still a demographic to be concerned with.

I grow pretty weary of oversimplifying and 'interpreting' studies to suit a pre-formed attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 11:14 AM

So do I Bill. But whilst ever bigots have access to the internet, I just can't stop myself challenging those who seek to twist information to suit their odious agenda.

In The UK, during Prime Minister's question time, there is a tradition which requires the PM to say "I refer the honourable member to the answer I gave earlier." Snag is, there is nothing honourable in The pre formed attitudes of two Mudcat members, at least one of which occasionally shows enough intelligence to know better.

The situation over here isn't much different Bill, in reality. Younger people are a hard to reach group and feel, as with most sexual disease, that they are invincible, and that now antiretroviral drugs are available that it is no different to a course of antibiotics for an itchy cock. Infections have gone down over the years in incidence per 100,000 population but not fast enough. The potential for MSM is high but reports, including the one Keith waves at us, have only historical data to go on, whilst meta analysis trawling information from other clinical specialties, especially emergency acute and colo rectal indicate a rising uptake in unsafe sex, especially anal sex, in younger women. This is being factored into specialised commissioning, (the government NHS system provides 99% of sexual health funding in this respect) and those working in the field see the proration balance working towards heterosexual infections, with actual numbers of new cases falling as the present screening programme goes beyond its peak.

A fascinating subject at an academic level, but awful that it is part of this debate, as it merely shows the lengths bigots and so called Christian concern will go to demonise sections of society for their own prejudice. They can't even claim more than 33% of HIV out there is from gay sex, yet wish to round them up, whilst not giving a shit about the other 67%. It's as awful as it is wicked.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 11:36 AM

Bill, I have no "pre-formed attitude."
I just think accuracy is important.
Your report stated "young MSM are the only risk group in which new infections are increasing."

That means heteros and other groups are NOT increasing.

Musket, what can you produce to show hetero infections are not falling, as you stated.
If the answer is not one single thing, then tell us why you are not a ridiculous fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 11:41 AM

the one Keith waves at us, have only historical data to go on,

You have future data muppet?
That is clever of you.
The HPE report had data up to December 2012, and showed trends over the decade.
The trend is MSM infections rising, others falling.

If you have anything more recent that contradicts that, show us.

You will not because you can not.
You are indeed just a ridiculous fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 12:47 PM

The paper makes (reasonable) assumptions based on historical infection rates, gormless fool. A more realistic picture of unmet need uses contributing factors and evidence, such as I gave as examples. Plenty out there without having to believe those working in health. You can always find a newspaper hack for instance. I recommend Daily M*il. They will even tell you which types of homosexuals cause cancer and which protect you from it.

You don't make yourself look clever purposely misinterpreting what people are saying. If you can't understand my point, what chance to have with the information you insist on repeating without any chance of understanding?

If you don't understand, don't use it as a tool. If you do understand, stop using it falsely to further a suspect agenda.




Oy, co Messiah and equal Messiah status gnome!   Is there room in the true path for a wall? My list needs one.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 12:59 PM

The paper makes (reasonable) assumptions based on historical infection rates,
No.
It gives firm conclusions based on the definitive figures.
Denying that fact again just makes you more ridiculous.
You can not show us one thing that contradicts it.
You fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 01:12 PM

page 8
"While overall trends show a decline in new HIV diagnoses
since 2005 (7,930) (Figure 2), this is largely due to a decrease in the number of diagnoses
reported among heterosexuals born in countries with high HIV prevalence"

page 11
"Over the last decade (up to Dec.20120), the number of
new diagnoses among heterosexuals declined in England, especially in London."

http://www.hpa.org.uk/webc/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1317140300680

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 01:19 PM

Ian....Do you understand what you are saying.
"Only 33% of new HIV infections come from MSM"!!
Under 2% of the population account for 33% of HIV infections....ONLY???

That must be about the most stupid statement I ever read and it says a lot about you and those who support you. You really want to make people believe that there is NO epidemic amongst MSM don't you Ian, you should be ashamed of yourself....I hope that you have really given up any input into health matters.
The true figures for new infections are 53% in the UK and 63% in the US
When you limit the figure to men.....MSM present 78% of new infections in the US.

You are also lying again,
the 33% which you quote is for estimated undiagnosed infections.

I don't know how you can come on here night after night lying and obfuscating you make yourself look not only a fool, but someone unworthy of this forum.

Truth is imperative if you are to be taken seriously.
Rather surprised that you support this person Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 02:00 PM

I thought HE was supporting ME. I made some comments and he agreed with some of them.

I don't generally proceed by 'supporting' individuals... I just look at data & information and try to gain some insight. Sometimes my opinion is similar to another's.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 02:36 PM

Welcome back to the debate, bill. Your saying that science and creationism are two different things would be likened saying science and evolutionism are two different things. It just depends on which side of the debate you are on. Your description of how faith is defined, perfectly fits the belief in all from nothing via no one story. There is no evidence for it.   Therefore I don't see that I used equivocation,....except that atheists have greater faith, because they reject intelligent agency!    Seems to me that you are the one equivocating since you bait and switch operative science with origins science.    You can test a flame by burning your finger, but you can't test the past. All you got is what remains to the present...which may be variously interpreted, and a scientists presuppositions, and inculturation among other things may colour the conclusions arrived at by considering the data.    We could also make conclusion about the past based on how things work in the present. For example no one doubts that if they found a watch....thank you paley...on the ground, that there was a designer and watchmaker. That would not change, even if the timepiece had become faulty or even broken.   I read that one of the DNA discoverers said that .....you should not let the appearance of design make you think it was.........or words to that effect.    A good example of not letting the evidence get in the way of atheist presuppositions. All the time though those creationists have no evidence or scientific reasoning!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 02:50 PM

science and creationism are two different things would be likened saying science and evolutionism[sic] are two different things.

Bullshit.


"By what route do otherwise sane men come to believe such palpable nonsense? How is it possible for a human brain to be divided into two insulated halves, one functioning normally, naturally and even brilliantly, and the other capable only of such ghastly balderdash which issues from the minds of Baptist evangelists? Such balderdash takes various forms, but it is at its worst when it is religious. Why should this be so? What is there in religion that completely flabbergasts the wits of those who believe in it? I see no logical necessity for that flabbergasting. Religion, after all, is nothing but an hypothesis framed to account for what is evidentially unaccounted for. In other fields such hypotheses are common, and yet they do no apparent damage to those who incline to them. But in the religious field they quickly rush the believer to the intellectual Bad Lands. He not only becomes anaesthetic to objective fact; he becomes a violent enemy of objective fact. It annoys and irritates him. He sweeps it away as something somehow evil."

       H. L. Mencken, The American Mercury (February 1926)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 05:16 PM

Pete-It's hard to explain to you exactly why your explanation & definitions have problems. All I can say is that you DO break some basic rules in logic, reasoning and use of terminology. Even IF your basic beliefs about religion were true, you can't defend them reasonably that way..... which is one of my basic points. What you choose to **believe** in not subject to standard logic, proof or reason. You can be internally consistent starting from your premises, but the premises themselves must first be accepted.
The events written about in the Bible and the interpretation of them are only vaguely and partially subject to confirmation..... but even this contradicts your assertation that "... you can't test the past." Because SOME Biblical sites, people and events do conform with historical records and archeology has found some of the places mentioned, it shows that the past can be verified and understood to some extent. Just digging up an old beer bottle in your your yard tells you something!

And.... "...you bait and switch operative science with origins science". That is a very good example of shaky definition ... there is no such divide. There is either good science or bad science.... the scientific method is a specific way of looking at the world, and it takes lots of time and careful attention to detail to both understand it and to practice it.

   And... the 'watchmaker' metaphor is famous as a fallacious argument.
Paley directly confronted If you get all your background FROM creationist sites, you miss many, many years of explanations of just what is being discussed. (I'll confess that *I* had forgotten where the watchmaker metaphor cam from... but it was about the 3rd hit when I searched for it)

Pete.. belief is one thing. No one can tell you not to... but you MUST stay aware of the reason we use 'believe' instead of 'know'.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 06:10 PM

Welcome back to the debate, bill. Your saying that science and creationism are two different things would be likened saying science and evolutionism are two different things. It just depends on which side of the debate you are on. Your description of how faith is defined, perfectly fits the belief in all from nothing via no one story. There is no evidence for it.   Therefore I don't see that I used equivocation,....except that atheists have greater faith, because they reject intelligent agency!    Seems to me that you are the one equivocating since you bait and switch operative science with origins science.    You can test a flame by burning your finger, but you can't test the past. All you got is what remains to the present...which may be variously interpreted, and a scientists presuppositions, and inculturation among other things may colour the conclusions arrived at by considering the data.    We could also make conclusion about the past based on how things work in the present. For example no one doubts that if they found a watch....thank you paley...on the ground, that there was a designer and watchmaker. That would not change, even if the timepiece had become faulty or even broken.   I read that one of the DNA discoverers said that .....you should not let the appearance of design make you think it was.........or words to that effect.    A good example of not letting the evidence get in the way of atheist presuppositions. All the time though those creationists have no evidence or scientific reasoning!!!!

Dearie me. Our pete may well have posted this, but this is clearly not his work. Dishonest to himself, dishonest with us. I did try to tell y'all...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 07:48 PM

".., but this is clearly not his work."

C'mon Steve... except for using capital letters, it reads very much like Pete. He got some of his defenses elsewhere... but he didn't C&P it.

Sheesh... sometimes it's hard to be on the same side as you!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 08:28 PM

pete:   "Your saying that science and creationism are two different things would be likened saying science and evolutionism are two different things."

Science and Creationism ARE two different things. Evolution meets all the criteria of science, including being modifiable in the light of the discovery of new data--WITHOUT calling the rest of science or our knowledge of evolutionary processes into question.

Creationism is composted of supposition and assumptions based on premises that are unproven and unprovable, and may have noting to do with Reality.

Did it ever occur to you that by insisting that "the heavens and the earth and all therein" were created in a mere six days some six-thousand years ago, you may be guilty of blasphemy? You are positing a mere wand-waving wizard instead of an All-Powerful Intelligence that it would take to create a universe that is over 12 billion years old and contains billions of possible worlds and who knows how much Life.

Perhaps you shy away from that powerful an Intelligence and prefer a god a bit less scary--CLICKY.

Did you ever think that the Rules of SCIENCE might have been invented by God, that THAT is the way He did it, and we are just, within recent centuries, putting superstion behind us and actually beginning to discover the Nature of God?

Contrary to some atheists--AND theists--you can be both scientific AND religious?

Just expand you mind a bit! CLICKY

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 08:56 PM

Now come off it, Bill. I'm not questioning the identity of him wot posted the thing, but really, if you think pete could ever achieve these sentences: Seems to me that you are the one equivocating since you bait and switch operative science with origins science. You can test a flame by burning your finger, but you can't test the past. - in spite of the fact that it's bilge, but that it's far more literate and grammatical bilge than he's ever achieved before - then you're rather more easily taken in than I thought possible. Don't worry about being on the same side. We can be like tigers circling menacingly around each other, but, given a big enough kill, we'd willingly share the spoils...

And that is entirely "pete's" grammar and punctuation there. No man can become so educated so fast from so low a starting point.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 03 Jan 14 - 03:15 AM

Must be the fuzzy head from last night.

Remind me. Who's side am I on?

Starry pete and his take on life is comparatively refreshing to be honest. Far nicer reading than evil bile and hatred. Don't get me wrong, he's daft as a brush and his ideas, pushed onto the more gullible end of society could lead to mass child abuse, which, forgive me if I am wrong, went out of fashion when RE stopped being bible class.

Far too many brain fazed acolytes around without developing another generation of them. You see seemingly intelligent people on these threads claiming a superstitious dimension to observable evidence. Surely we owe it up our children to protect them from nonsense rather than promote faith schools and other such stains on society ?


pete doesn't misrepresent facts in the way our resident bigots do. He doesn't begin with facts in the first place......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jan 14 - 04:43 AM

Musket.
You don't make yourself look clever purposely misinterpreting what people are saying.

How could I misinterpret "Keith says heterosexual transmission is falling but it isn't."

HPE says it has been declining for years.
How is that a misinterpretation?

Bill's US report said "young MSM are the only risk group in which new infections are increasing."
Not much room for misinterpretation there either.

So, you keep telling us how well informed you are, and how you have special knowledge because of your job, but all you show us is special ignorance.

Do you have one single bit of evidence, any evidence you can show us at all, that heterosexual transmission is not falling?

If not, you are proved wrong.
Again.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 03 Jan 14 - 04:59 AM

Yes, you just said it yourself, thick twat.

There is a worrying trend both sides of the pond in younger people.

I would add that the concerns from other, mainly surgical trends suggest the projections regarding heterosexual transmission through sex show why services are planned through meta analysis of trends and data, not just historical projection. The paper contained in the HPA website was using historical data. It acknowledges that their data is provisional and best estimate.

Please go away and either find another angle for pointing out reasons to vilify sections of society or take a few lessons on public health epidemiology. I had to before being able to use it to aid decision making, and I am tired of trying to dumb it down because you still just don't get it. I feel assured that getting it isn't an item on your agenda so wasting my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 Jan 14 - 05:33 AM

Science and evolutionism are two different things indeed, the latter defined as the ideological belief that things will always evolve to the better. Evolution theory, in contrast, is a part of science, where predicates like "better" have no place at all. The popular phrase "survival of the fittest" is no longer accepted as science.

If a scientific theory is valid, it will be so (sc. to the same degree) for the past and future, and for other countries etc. Therefore it is perfectly possible to explore the past from present-day data scientifically. Of course the accuracy is not perfect, but well worth the while for many curious people. Not to speak of those who are after the fossil oil etc. - if they all were Bible literalists, cars would have run dry long ago (- not the worst aspect, on second thought).

Pete has told us where he got his "wisdom" from; trying to convince him is completely pointless. There are other readers who are really interested; let us address them and try to make a good impression.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Jan 14 - 05:52 AM

Militant atheism has become a religion???

No, not at all. It is an extension of politics. Political 'leaders' can't have any other entity outside their realm of control, that sees the individual as self-responsible, and not under the accountability and control of the political system. ANYTHING you THINK you know has been fed to you BY that system of control. If you've had your own personal experience with something outside their 'sphere of influence', they and their yapping shills, will argue till their blue in the face trying to convince you that it never happened...and things like that of a higher level of being aren't happening. The fact is, that 'they' aren't happening...and they just bitch louder in chaotic crowds trying to feel,and get others to feel that they are happening.
It just seems like a 'militant religion'....but then, what does religion have anything to to do with God, Love or the spiritual???
NOTHING!....
...Yap on!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jan 14 - 06:17 AM

The paper contained in the HPA website was using historical data. It acknowledges that their data is provisional and best estimate.

Not true.
That paper was only published in November and uses data up to December 2012.

It is NOT TRUE that it is provisional.
You made that up.

Do you have one single bit of evidence, any evidence you can show us at all, that heterosexual transmission is not falling?

If not, you are proved wrong.
Again.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 03 Jan 14 - 08:15 AM

Go on then Keith. How's this?

They indicate the provisional nature of the figures by displaying them as a range, using a figure within that range for headline results. As seen by reading the fucking thing.

Thick twat.






Hi Goofus!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 03 Jan 14 - 11:59 AM

After reading Pete's latest emails (addressed to Bill) I realise the long hours I've put into attempting to reason with him have been wasted. He hasn't even started to question his own beliefs, and to him the simplicity of literalism and the comforting blanket of ignorance it wraps him in is obviously easier than expending any energy actually finding out what he is talking about.

So . . . has this all been a waste of time? In some respects, yes. I thought I could reason with Pete, but he's so blinkered (wait for the reply of "yours is a faith position") he is incapable accepting any view but his own, or those that a certain group of anon webbers tell him he should believe.

From my own point of view though, it has been useful as it helps to order thoughts and form arguments in order to address such inaccurate statements such as Pete's. It's been a useful exercise.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to challenge one really minute, obscure, tiny-weeny area of accepted scientific thought with what I've discovered in my own research.



*Hmmm. I thought the bible was the word of god. Can a document dictated (I presume it was dictated, is that what himself did with the commandments?) by a supernatural being be historical? That opens some possibilities. Crikey. Derek Acorah might be producing actual historical knowledge. Now that's a turn-up!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jan 14 - 12:01 PM

Who said that about what figures Musket?
What has it to do with the PHE report?
Are you quoting yourself?
Has anyone said that except you?
Google says no.

Do you have one single bit of evidence, any evidence you can show us at all, that heterosexual transmission is not falling?

If not, you are proved wrong.
Again.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jan 14 - 12:49 PM

The PHE figures on new diagnoses are NOT displayed as a range.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Jan 14 - 01:57 PM

Robots versus living souls....how can you reason with a machine?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 03 Jan 14 - 02:57 PM

Hey Keith! I just asked a thousand people to look at the paper published that you keep referring to.

Know what? Every one of them, and I even asked Jesus to look, noticed that figures were expressed as a range.

Can I recommend an optician? No ? There are none so blind as those that will not see. (Thomas the poet.)




Oy Goofus! I said Hi ! How's it hanging ?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Jesus
Date: 03 Jan 14 - 03:00 PM

Yes. I concur. Definitely expressed as a range.

JC

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Jan 14 - 03:34 PM

Hi Musket.....just thought I'd return the salutation.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 03 Jan 14 - 05:31 PM

Yo

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 03 Jan 14 - 07:21 PM

don firth- it can hardly be blasphemous to accept what God has revealed. not that you point to anything as being divinely revealed.
you prefer to trust in the unevidenced idea of other worlds and lifeforms out there. I have always said that I cannot prove creation as per bible timeframe but I sure think that the evidence supports a more recent creation than evolutionism posits. those dino bones are doing very well if they are 65 MYO !

bill- good science, as I understand it has to do with repeatable, testable experiments.[ why is that illogical?] evolutionary theory does not fit that, unless you can demonstrate otherwise. in fact , I reckon the evidence is not in its favour because the present so often demonstrates what in Darwinian doublespeak is called "evolutionary stasis"- ie creatures/organisms represented in the fossil record look much the same as the modern examples. I appreciate you mentioning archaeology confirming bible sites. I imagine there is something in these finds that confirms this, at least to a reasonable level of confidence.
how do you propose that compares favourably with Darwinian interpretations of fossils, to say artifacts at an archaeological site?. imagine the latter can be more accurately attested as to date, culture etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jan 14 - 10:07 PM

pete, the Hubble space telescope has already found several hundred planets orbiting nearby stars. There is no reason to supposed that life could not develop on other planets.

Life has developed here on earth in places you would never expect life could exist. Such as around the "black smokers" along the mid-Atlantic ridge. There is no reason to believe that it could not develop on other terrestrial planets like earth elsewhere in the universe.

It is not Biblical, because those who wrote the Bible were absolutely clueless as to astronomy, but to deny the possibility is to believe in a LIMITED God, not the Infinite, All-Powerful, Omniscient God that could have--and DID--create the Cosmos and all that's in it.

The god you believe in is a puny twerp compared to the Creator of the Universe as it actually IS.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 01:02 AM

Gosh...

Can a newborn baby, have within it, a life force, that is part of a larger life force..which is older than the body of the baby??

Is life, brand new each time?

If all our intelligence all added up with all intelligence on the planet, does it make us larger or smaller than the sum total?..and is it separate from each other?....and if it is intelligence, would it cut itself off from the input of others??

How old are the properties, of 'brand new'?

If only one person is 'right', is that more or less intelligence??...or perhaps a matter of perception??

...and being as somebody here, claims to know all the secrets of life, what are they?...and how do you know??....for sure???...or are you just someone with too much time on your hands?

...and speaking of which....

If the whole world is a stage...where does the audience sit??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 01:26 AM

In the stalls
Scratching their balls

Talking of balls. If pete thinks the whole of scientific endeavour is set up to deny his god, he has delusions of grandeur. That translations of ancient stories by superstitious people are made irrelevant in fact is neither here nor there.

Two thousand years from now people will possibly equate Tolkien's Middle Earth with heaven as a medieval to them faith story.

If it's dark out, look at the stars. You are looking at stars as they were, in many cases even with the human eye, thousands of years previous to biblical pronouncements of the age of the rather small compact universe they could comprehend.

How many kangaroos, duck billed platypuses and bison were on your ark pete ? Why did your Jesus have to be associated with conjuring tricks to gain credibility with the locals if he was so good anyway? If your god is omnipotent, why smite and slay ? Why not just make the citizens of Sodom and the other one I can't spell good people?

Sounds more impotent than omnipotent to me. I wouldn't be able to write and post this if he were otherwise.

Some good people have wasted time and energy trying to debate with you. Not me, I took the piss from the beginning. But I think you owe some people an apology. Your fantasy is beyond reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 01:28 AM

Musket, your statement that if the figures are given as a range they are preliminary, is false.
YOU MADE IT UP.
The 2012 figures are the final, definitive figures. They will now be working on 2013.

Anyway, they are not given as a range.

"New HIV diagnoses, recent infection and
incidence
In 2012, 6,360 people (4,560 men and 1,800 women) were newly diagnosed with HIV in the
UK, a slight increase on 6,220 diagnoses in 2011. Like the previous year, this is an estimated
new HIV diagnosis rate of 1.0 per 10,000 population
(1.5 per 10,000 men and 0.57 per 10,000
women) (Appendices 2, 3 and 4). While overall trends show a decline in new HIV diagnoses
since 2005 (7,930) (Figure 2), this is largely due to a decrease in the number of diagnoses
reported among heterosexuals born in countries with high HIV prevalence. The number of new
diagnoses among persons born in Africa declined from 42% in 2008 to 29% in 2012.

Overall, 14% (390/2,880) had a recent infection (in the previous six months) at diagnosis in
England, Wales and Northern Ireland (Appendix 5)."

"In 2012, new diagnoses among MSM increased by 10% from 2,960 in 2011 and in London, by
14% from 1,400 in 2011 to 1,600 in 2012 (Figure 4). The proportion of new diagnoses that were
probably recently acquired infections among MSM in England, Wales and Northern Ireland in
2012 was 19% (Appendix 5); in London this was 22%."

"Heterosexual men and women
People who acquired their infection through heterosexual contact were the second largest
group of people newly diagnosed with HIV in 2012. After adjusting for missing risk information,
they accounted for 2,880 (45%) of new HIV diagnoses. Over the last decade, the number of
new diagnoses among heterosexuals declined in England, especially in London. In 2012,
numbers were highest in London (1,020; 35%) followed by the PHE regions Midlands and the
East of England (590) and the North (400) and South of England (370).
In Scotland, Wales
and Northern Ireland, the numbers of new diagnoses acquired heterosexually were lower, with
110, 50 and 40, respectively (Figure 5).

In 2012, a higher number of heterosexual women (1,530) than men (1,050) were newly
diagnosed with HIV. The median age of diagnosis was 39 years overall; 42 years among men
and 37 years among women.

The proportion of new diagnoses that were recently acquired HIV infections was 6% (30/440)
among heterosexual men and 8% (50/640) among women. "

SO, NOT GIVEN AS A RANGE, AND YOUR STATEMENT WAS UNTRUE ANYWAY.

Do you have one single bit of evidence,(not made up!) any evidence you can show us at all, that heterosexual transmission is not falling?

If not, you are proved wrong.
Again.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 02:44 AM

Musket: "If pete thinks the whole of scientific endeavour is set up to deny his god, he has delusions of grandeur."

..but then, what if the whole of the scientific endeavor proves God, would you listen??..or is your 'objectivity' selective???

Perception, perception, perception.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 04:06 AM

If anything proved God, which God?

Hopefully the semi skimmed Christian one. It's his job to forgive me.

A hell of a lot of technology including the internet would go up in a puff of smoke for that matter. Not to mention a huge space appearing in The Natural History Museum. Ditto Science Museum. Your Smithsonian may have to rearrange the exhibits too. It would be rather inconvenient if religious nonsense turned out to be true.

You wouldn't have religion either if you think about it. You need faith in order to control people for your own ends and if people no longer take your word for it, you may as well sell the altar silver. Imagine a world where everybody has the mentality of Keith A Hole of Hertford? The bible is the only thing he doesn't question. And he questions that!

The good professor sends his regards by the way Goofus.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 08:58 AM

I think that's as near as we are going to get to an apology from Ian, Keith. :0)

How many outright lies has he contributed to this thread and others?
I suppose not many really care about truth, it's about winning at any cost as far as Ian is concerned, but if we all started lying, the discussion section might as well close....to be truthful is most important. We can all make mistakes and apologise for them, I have done so several times , but Ian is in a position in which command of the true facts relating to the issue is imperative, so that would suggest that he lies knowingly, to scupper the debate.

As I have said before, I think that is his objective...lying, abusive behaviour and language, intimidation......he wants to silence all opposition to his stance.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 09:00 AM

Hi Sanity, liked your post of 1;02 am......Lot of thought provoking stuff in there!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 10:59 AM

Hello Akenaton!!....It's ALWAYS good to see you!.....(well...at least so far!)...Wink

Warmest Regards!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 12:01 PM

Akenaton: "Hi Sanity, liked your post of 1;02 am......Lot of thought provoking stuff in there!"

I know....if there is one thing that throws them off the track...it's having to think!....some of them think that thinking is an exercise of trying to remember what line that someone told them, that they can REPEAT, that 'might work'....Peat, Peat....and Re-Peat! ...Oh Ma!, look how bright I am!..think I should 'win' the argument??....doesn't matter if They're 'correct' or not.....just so long as they can walk away convinced that 'they've won'........ no matter how silly they come off..just ask Don!!!...and posse!!

Take this one: "Militant atheism has become a religion."

They hate the Pope, and/or the hierarchy of religions ....but want to be regarded as a General!!!...gee...if only they could just say it 'right' then they could think they could be the Commander-in-Chief!

Armies are about as much about peace, as religions are about spirituality!

Good seein' you, Ake!

GfS

P.S. You'll have to pardon me....I just had to ramble on!(grins)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 12:44 PM

GfS asked.. " if the whole of the scientific endeavor proves God, would you listen??."

Ya' know... what would impress ME is something like the clouds rolling around and forming a giant set of features "made them in His image", and voice from the sky saying in all languages at once: "Hey! Pay attention! Here's how I expect you all to behave!"... then clear consequences if they didn't.
I know that theology 'explains' why that never happens..(free will and all that- 'It don't count if you are forced')... but lacking unmistakable evidence, it's hard to just nod when human theologians TELL you how THEY see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 01:40 PM

Every now and then all the gods got together on Mount Olympus and would party up a storm. There were all the Olympian gods, like Zeus (chairman of the board at the time), Athena, Poseidon, and the rest of the crew. Odin would often make it down from Valhalla, Manitou would come across the Atlantic, and miscellaneous Far-Eastern gods would often show up. On one occasion, this little Mid-Eastern god came galumphing up from the shores of the Eastern Mediterranean.

After the party had been well under way for some time, the little Mid-Eastern god leaped up and shouted, "I am the one true god and thou shalt have no other gods before me!"

The other gods heard his pronouncement and all died laughing!!

Except for Dionysus and Aphrodite who were both drunk as skunks, busy doing "rumpy-pumpy" under the table, and didn't hear him!

That's why the little Mid-Eastern god is, indeed, the only one true god around these days.

With the exception of Dionysus and Aphrodite. And this, of course, accounts for the general popularity of booze and sex.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 01:54 PM

How many outright lies has he contributed to this thread and others?

This from someone who has not got the courage to tell us what his solution to the 'problem' actually is?

You know, I have just about had it. There is no proof that anyone's god exists but my own but I will never try to foist mine onto anyone else. There is no evidence that compulsory testing of male homosexuals will help to cure the HIV virus. But there is plenty of evidence that ake will never actually admit that what he wants is the eradication of male homosexual activity. This thread has become so full of shit that, sadly, the only one making any sense is conc. And that is saying something.

There are far more important things in this world. Friends have recently departed. New life has recently begun. The cycle continues. Sadly it will always contain the bigots and hatemongers but, thankfully, we will continue to outnumber them.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 04:35 PM

No Dave. Not just conc. you make sense occasionally too. Before the disgusting bile inducing worm works out how to deal with HIV, he may wish to deal with the vast majority of untreated HIV (67% UK at best published estimate to date) that are nothing to do with gay people.

But no. He wants to exterminate as usual. Goofus is back on thread, and he reckons there is a cure available. Not for HIV but for being gay.

We wanted the thread to float away from reality. Well it seems we have our wish.



Oh. The number of lies? None. The number of times he has highlighted incitement to hate? Countless. The number of times he has patiently tried to explain how many "official figures" are out there ? Countless. Why? Because religious bigots such as Keith A Hole of Hertford and ignorant nasty nobodies such as the worm twist figures to support their nasty agenda.

It isn't nice opening a thread on Mudcat sometimes. There is no place for homophobia. No place for decent people to have to read upsetting statements that stigmatise large numbers of the population and disgust everyone else.

This all seems to come from the worm's puerile interest in the bedroom affairs of others. Not nice, this worm.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 05:47 PM

Don firth supposes that because he can conceive of life out there ,that it must be so. He also supposes that because he can conceive of deity in his own image that this must be what that deity is like.                  Musket is shooting his mouth off and demanding answers to questions that he probably don't want to know the answer to, and won't get from me either while he remains disrespectful . He also confuses operational science with origins science as though nothing ever got done till Darwin came along!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 06:14 PM

you make sense occasionally too

Hey, Messiah M, less of the insults. Is it some sort of test? :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 06:42 PM

confuses operational science with origins science

As has been stated and proven before, Pete, this "distinction" is bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 07:06 PM

Pete, I "suppose" nothing.

I know that there are many earth-type planets out there and I can conceive of many of them having life, possibly even intelligent life. But I am not saying that simply because I can conceive of the possibility, that it must be true. Scientific evidence has not established it yet.

But considering all that real estate out there, if it is NOT inhabited, that would tend to indicate that God probably does NOT exist. Why create millions or possibly billions of Gardens of Eden all over the universe if they are merely to lie fallow?

Please don't assume that I am saying more than I actually AM saying.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 11:19 PM

Don Firth: "Pete, I "suppose" nothing."

I think they were talking about something altogether different..

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 12:21 AM

Goofball, what you need to do is read the discussion that led up to the comment that you are hooting and squealing about. That way, you might have at least a small chance of avoiding making a complete ass of yourself.

Uh oh! Sorry! Too late!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 12:50 AM

yeah, they were talking about...

From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 05:47 PM

"Don firth supposes that because he can conceive of life out there ,that it must be so. He also supposes that because he can conceive of deity in his own image that this must be what that deity is like."

..and you're talking about Greek mythology...

Apparently I'm not the only one who thinks you have an overly inflated opinion of yourself!!.......(comes across in your edicts of nonsensical 'Pontifications'.....)

GfS

P.S. You're almost famous for it...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 01:36 AM

No, Goofus, you have a punctured ego, and it's been taking a real beating lately. As far as you are concerned, anyone who knows anything has an "overly inflated opinion" of themselves.

That's YOUR problem, not MINE. YOU deal with it. Try reading a book now and then.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 01:54 AM

Pete from Seven Stars: "He (Don) also supposes that because he can conceive of deity in his own image that this must be what that deity is like."

It's not uncommon, Pete,.."In the beginning God created man in his own image...and ever since man has been trying to return the favor!"

...and Don, re-read your last post, and consider for a moment, that your rant is nothing more than a projection outward, of what's going on with you.

Frankly, I'm feeling fine!
As far as 'punctured'...(and referring to the Obamacare thread), you're the one who is punctured and leaking hot air from the 'talking points'....otherwise you'd give me a straight answer....and NOT be making excuses as to why the insurance companies had to be involved at all!...for their profits....instead of healthcare...
But we can take that up on the other thread....

Sorry for the diversion....but he needed an explanation...(so he can spin it)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 03:26 AM

If it's a test Co Messiah with equal gnome status, you got higher marks than me.

The more I read this thread, the more I realise how much sense The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster makes, although the refinements to pasta recipes in the reformed church have much to offer.

Remember when this thread and the first coming spoke of real events and real situations? When Betty Swollox gave Co Messiah S a hard time, Knott End Parish Council erected Pearly Gates and nobody argued when Hillsborough was declared the home of the faithful?

Ahem. I said nobody argued.......       Thank you.

Mind you, time to sit back and enjoy the fun again. Goofus has weighed in. He gives excellent value for money. All we need to do now is feed him a statistic that Keith A Hole of Hertford can't find in google or can't understand if he does, either will suffice, and our work here is done. I reckon tying the tails of those two cats and hanging them over the washing line would give hours of entertainment.

Oy pete! I've been saying relatively nice things about you! If nothing else, I've distinguished between you and decaffeinated Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 04:26 AM

Did I fail to understand this statistic Muppet?

" Over the last decade, the number of
new diagnoses among heterosexuals declined in England, especially in London. In 2012,
numbers were highest in London (1,020; 35%) followed by the PHE regions Midlands and the
East of England (590) and the North (400) and South of England (370).
In Scotland, Wales
and Northern Ireland, the numbers of new diagnoses acquired heterosexually were lower, with
110, 50 and 40, respectively (Figure 5). "

I do fail to understand how it is compatible with "Keith says heterosexual transmission is falling but it isn't."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 05:04 AM

If a clever person did what Keith did just there, such a person would be dangerous. As it is, it doesn't take a Co Messiah to notice his deliberate confusing of diagnosed cases with the perceived undiagnosed trends.

zzzzz

Just say there are no places in heaven for poufs. Far easier and far more transparent.




Just been reading the BBC news website. The newspapers are full of debate over repeating the blind stupidity that led to WW1. Apparently a Cambridge historian has raised it. Ok, a girlie historian but I'm sure Keith will read and err... argue he knows better than historians.

[snigger]

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 05:11 AM

"Keith says heterosexual transmission is falling but it isn't."

A steady reduction in diagnoses over a decade is strong evidence that it is falling.
Can you provide any single piece of evidence that it is not falling?

No.
You have refused to do so over the last few weeks so the conclusion must be no.
You can not.
YOU WERE WRONG!
Silly muppet.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 05:54 AM

"Ake will never actually admit that what he wants is the eradication of male homosexual activity" (Dave)

" Before the disgusting bile inducing worm works out how to deal with HIV, he may wish to deal with the vast majority of untreated HIV (67% UK at best published estimate to date) that are nothing to do with gay people.

But no. He wants to exterminate as usual." (Ian)

A fine example of the intimidation MO, two extremely stupid and disingenuous statements.

Extermination?   how stupid can you two get? I am talking about an attempt to get male homosexuals to regulate their behaviour.
HIV is obviously transmitted by extreme promiscuity and risky sexual behaviour.

Even if the 67% estimate cited by Ian is in any way accurate (which I doubt), it converts to a minute percentage of the population at large...nowhere near an epidemic. The estimate of untreated HIV 33% amongst MALE homosexuals (1.5% of the population) is an epidemic.

The final adjusted figures state that 53% of new cases of HIV and even higher rates of other STD's are from amongst MSM

In London, 1 in 11 male homosexuals carry the HIV virus.

If that does not make obvious, even to you agenda driven individuals, that something EFFECTIVE must be done to stem the transmission of STDs in this demographic, nothing will.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 06:23 AM

That figure of musket does stand.
About 22 000 estimated to be living with undiagnosed HIV of whom an estimated 7000 are MSM.
I do not understand why he thinks that stat. significant.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 08:41 AM

I am talking about an attempt to get male homosexuals to regulate their behaviour.

How, ake, how? Please explain how you will force them to "regulate their behaviour" and just maybe I will not assume that you want the eradication of male homosexual activity. If you do not tell us what your plans are you must accept that people are going to draw their own conclusions. Once again. fifth or sixth time maybe, simple questions. How will you enforce the compulsory testing? What will you do once you know who is HIV positive? They are really easy to answer. Give it a try.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 09:29 AM

I have already answered your question several times on this and other threads.
The agencies say MSM should be tested at least tri-annually. I agree with them and also suggest unrestricted contact tracing for all positive tests in ALL demographics. How male homosexuals are to be compelled to behave responsibly, is for the health authorities to determine , not me.
But have no doubt Dave, it may need to be instigated at some point.
Without "extermination" being undertaken of course....

What is YOUR answer to the problem, or do you think there IS no problem?

The problem exists, we should all be concerned and everyone should have some sort of input into how male homosexual behaviour can be regulated......the clock is ticking.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 09:48 AM

Bill, if you are still here, you are a seasoned debater, you value truth and sourced facts to back an argument.

How do you feel about the ad-hominem attacks you see here in place of a reasoned response to the issues raised.

I would bet, if it was on any other thread, on any other subject, you would be objecting in the strongest possible terms....:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 12:08 PM

Is it up to The NHS to regulate the behaviour of heterosexually active people too?

Are you going to turn up for testing? Over two million UK men have regular sex with prostitutes.

Regulating behaviour ? This is The UK and the issue is not only small compared to other similar STDs and insignificant compared to other life limiting lifestyle health issues, but we are not a fascist society either. As Dave has pointed out, even if reality did support the jaundiced view of the worm and his Hertford based apologist, all that would happen is a slight increase on the numbers of people going onto antiretrovirals.

Do you think gay people would vote for such a measure? Do you think respectable people would? Do you think any intelligent person could make a reasoned argument for it?

Disgusting little shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 12:33 PM

In case no one has noticed...there are two things in the populace that can't be regulated or controlled....history clearly shows it...It's people fucking whatever they want to fuck, and getting 'high' by whatever means they choose.
They will pursue these two things, while totally disregarding their own health, or the health of others, who could be affected.
Just thought you might want to take this into consideration.....

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 01:44 PM

Goofus.

Thank you.

That believe it or not is the impartial factor that needs no sides in this debate in order to influence it.

The figures show that whilst the historical incidence and physical risk of HIV puts gay relationships at a high risk, the uptake in both safe sex and participating in screening makes gay people this side of the pond the most responsible and publicly spirited at risk group. I hear of similar screening experience your side of the pond.

Hence the real concern for all groups is lost in the noise of homophobic shouting for ways to persecute people for being "queer." It is still a stain on society that we used to stigmatise and even criminalise people for an alternative take on love and relationships. We see the outcome of pushing natural urges underground with insisting catholic priests remain celibate with disastrous results.

My sharp vitriol at callous fools is not just in order to shout at people, there are good reasons for responsible society to abhor criminal bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 02:08 PM

ake: I always decry the use of insults and ad hominem remarks. I have posted many times about this. I disagree very strongly with you about several issues, but calling you a 'malicious dunderhead'... or any of the recent terms employed by various of your countrymen ... is not likely to win any arguments.
I tend to see personal invective as saying more about the accuser than his target, so even when I agree with their basic data, political stance, cultural viewpoint and level of frustration, I have to distance myself from the name calling and implied suggestions that someone 'knows' about your motives and basic personality. (I do have, and have expressed, opinions about your underlying premises when discussing HIV/AIDS - but that is on a different level from characterizing **you** as a person. I have no idea what my attitude would be if we sat down & talked for 2 hours.)
I have known 'maybe' 2-3 people in 50 years to whom I would apply really strong language... really hateful, obnoxious, deceitful individuals. I have a much longer list of those I wish I could just talk some sense into!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 04:31 PM

Sanity...Of course we can never stop people having sex, people will do it anyway whether it be harmful or not.
Incest is criminalised on health and social grounds, even if the people concerned agree to be sterilised so that no offspring are involved.

But... we can ensure that the transmission of STDs amongst the demographic most massively affected, is slowed or halted by frequent testing and contact tracing as recommended by all health agencies....
As I said earlier, how the agencies enforce their suggestions is up to them, but if infection rates amongst MSM continue to rise by 10% annually while rates in all other demographics are falling, action to encourage responsible conduct in the MSM demographic will have to be taken.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 06:28 PM

Oh, I know...Disregard, for yourself and your fellow mankind, IS in FACT....STUPIDITY!!.....and fucking stupidity has killed more on the planet, than all the intentional ill-intent!!!

Its roots begin with 'ones feelings for self gratification'.....and by lying to ourselves creating another.

Everyone else can fill in their own conclusion.....(s)......

Regards!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 07:34 PM

"... action to encourage responsible conduct .."

Action? Again.. buried in that seemingly innocuous remark are several implications;just as above that "...frequent testing and contact tracing.." does not spell out voluntary testing or how to ascertain exactly who needs to be tested.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 08:42 PM

". . . but if infection rates amongst MSM continue to rise by 10% annually while rates in all other demographics are falling. . . ."

Okay, Ake, let's see some substantiation for that figure. And where, exactly--other than possibly Africa--is this rise taking place?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 01:26 AM

Bill. I do shout. You don't. Fair enough.

You post a reasonable argument for engaging rather than scorning and he replies by comparing gay relationships with incest and plucking a figure from the air that has no basis in the country which he wishes to inflict his "list."

I rest my case.

Out of interest for anyone wishing to look at UK figures, these are collected by a body called Health and Social Care Information Centre (HSCIC). At this time our rather unfortunate system means primary care information is not collected although this will happen from April. Meaning the crude statistics Keith has been flying in peoples' faces from other collection sources will in future be more timely and hopefully more accurate as predictions will be based on a much larger data set, including the sad rise in women issues from anal sex as male expectation rises as it were..

In any case, the false clinical argument for homophobia will look even less credible.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 02:54 AM

The PHE and HPA figures are not "crude."
That is simply a lie and you can not substantiate it.

They show that hetero diagnoses have been falling for a decade.
If a figure emerged from any source that suggested they were rising it would be headline news.

I defy you to quote ANY SOURCE YOU LIKE that says they are rising.

You have been exposed in a lie and you can not bluster it away.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 03:46 AM

Sorry Keith, I have never expressed an opinion. I have quoted the intelligence healthcare services are planned with. If you have an issue with that, I suggest you wait till the education secretary Michael Gove becomes a health minister. He seems to be good at twisting truth to fit a right wing agenda, judging by his battle with "left wing" Baldrick...

I humoured you, waiting for you to realise where we get our figures from, waiting to see if you read enough in order to see HSCIC and where it fits in. You didn't, hence you have no understanding at all. Not worth wasting breath on you as your position is not only one of ignorance, but failure to learn.

As you were advancing a right wing agenda on WW1 and the government are saying the same thing, does this mean persecution of minorities is the next thing they are to launch? I ask merely because you seem to have an inside track judging by your support for sanitising history, their latest venture.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 04:04 AM

As you were advancing a right wing agenda on WW1

Another lie. Trying desperately to discredit me now.
I have just quoted Tristram Hunt, historian and Labour MP on how the political left responded in 1914, and Dr. Gary Sheffield whose views I have used in support of my case is of the left.
To me it is not a political discussion.

HSCIC acually use PHE data.
It is a lie to call them "crude."
Instead of more musket balls, give us something, anything, that supports any of it.
You can't.

You state hetero infections are rising.
That is not true.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 04:07 AM

I have quoted the intelligence healthcare services are planned with. If you have an issue with that,...

Have an issue?
It is incomprehensible.
And where have you quoted anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 04:08 AM

1. I have already answered your question several times on this and other threads.
2. What is YOUR answer to the problem, or do you think there IS no problem?


Sorry for the cuts but all can see the whole post, just above. I just want to address the salient points.

1. You have STILL not answered my questions. How would compulsory testing be enforced. What would you do with the people who prove to be HIV positive. None of your points answer these questions.
2. You suggested I was jumping to conclusions about your views then suggest that I consider that there is no problem. HIV is an issue, just as any other virus or disease is. I am not qualified to propose a solution.

So, once again for the record. How would compulsory testing be enforced. What would you do with the people who prove to be HIV positive.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 04:14 AM

Just found this hero of the bible belt BTW. Anyone care to put up a link to a 'militant atheist' equivalent?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 04:51 AM

We can answer all our questions easily.

The gay bit? Our true religion takes all comers. So long as you can play bingo, you are in. (I assume gay people can play bingo. Ian Fleming reckoned they couldn't whistle, but that's another story.)

WW1 revisionism? Let's ask someone who was there and central to the debate. General Melchard! Are you there?

BAARRR!!!!!!!!!!!

That settles that then.

Isn't it funny how the ludicrous Secretary of State for education seems to have entered this thread through a circuitous route? He's the fool who reckons children benefit from being brainwashed into guilt in a way that can fuck them up for life.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 06:33 AM

"Keith says heterosexual transmission is falling but it isn't."

It is, and has been for a decade according to the official, confirmed figures.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 11:20 AM

I wonder if Keith is posting awful lies through pig ignorance or nasty agenda?

For the interest of anyone still alive and with us, I have on my screen "official" figures of a sort. You see, there are no official figures. There are historical ones and there are predictions. The good news is that despite the wishes of Keith A Hole of Hertford and his pet worm, being gay is not the reason for recent HIV figures. I do hope the figures get worse before they get better as the present combination of screening and secondary diagnosis has yielded great success in combating the cause of this viral condition, and it is hoped that a similar approach nay help us with the vast majority of worrying sexually transmitted diseases.

Also, as of April, the primary care figures will, for the very first time, be included in returns. The fact they are not yet skews some commentaries, including the hand picked ones Keith is advised to concentrate on by either his church or political party.

It isn't good news by the way, but good enough to stop the argument for rounding up sections of society in order to blame them for society's issues.

No need for pogroms. Nothing to see here.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:03 PM

Dave, I apologise for my short response to you ..."do you think there IS no problem"...that was a bit presumptuous.

Onwards and upwards. Folks who test positive I presume would be treated as they are now, by lifetime care on antiretrovirals.
What do you not understand about that, I am rather puzzled?

Regarding compulsion, I would rather it was not needed and I have no idea how the health agencies would enforce the increased testing that they are advising, however, as I said already if infection rates amongst male homosexuals continue to increase at between 8 and 10% per annum, testing will have to be enforced.

You keep asking me how "I" would enforce increased testing and contact tracing, but thankfully that is not my decision to make, this is why we have health agencies, and up until now, in regard to male homosexuals and STD's, they have NOT been doing their job.

The biggest problem at the moment, is getting people to admit that there is a serious sexual health epidemic among male homosexuals, as most folks are so bound to their "equality" agenda and see telling the truth about this situation as "discrimination."
It is an almost unbelievably stupid stance to take,

You of all people should understand where I am coming from, as you were the one who said that...."anyone who believes we have equality in this country must be mad"...or words to that effect.

I fully agree with your view on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:16 PM

Ian, you posts are incomprehensible nonsense.
Why do you continue to make a fool of yourself?
The figures are prepared and presented by the health agencies, are you saying that they present statistics which are skewed or designed to show male homosexuals in a bad light?
That is ridiculous, their figures are a hundred times more believable than the manic jargon that you produce.

Stick to your forte, cussing, attempted intimidation, childish name calling and sexual innuendo.   At least they fit your online persona.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:25 PM

So, it looks like Kieth and Akenaton are posting the HIV figures, because the numbers are alarming....and some of the others on here, want to suppress the numbers because they think that they are not alarming?? The spread of AIDS is most commonly sexually transmitted activity, and needles ...so, what's the bitch?....hetero transmission is better than homo transmission??....(Ya' gotta scroll back a couple of posts and read the bit on self-gratification overruling concern for your fellow mankind)...one form is not any more 'benevolent' than the other...and it's ironic that this should be on the, 'Militant atheism has become a religion' thread....I mean MORALS happens to fall under the 'religious' category...Are the 'atheists' now distancing themselves from 'morality' too....or just wanting to 'employ' them, while disavowing themselves from the reason 'why'?

I don't know that there is any reason to doubt Ake's and Kieth's numbers. For a LONG time Ake has posted numbers right from the Centers for Disease Control..and has taken a lot of crap for it...because the 'so-called liberals'(that's the bandwagon variety), are aligned with the homosexual community to bring about change, and destroy the concept of traditional marriage to do it....in order to defer to the government for everything......BUT THEN THEY DISPUTE THE GOVERNMENT'S OWN FIGURES!!!!????!!!!????.....because it doesn't support their allegiances????

'I think the only way to simplify my life,
Is fix my car and drive away'

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:38 PM

Musket, you are lying about the PHE and HPA stats.
They ARE the stats, and show hetero infections have been falling for a decade.

If you are challenging that, do not just spout more stuff out of your own head, do not tell us what is on your screen, JUST SHOW US SOMETHING THAT DOES NOT COME FROM YOU.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 01:05 PM

Seems logical to me....

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 02:15 PM

Folks who test positive I presume would be treated as they are now, by lifetime care on antiretrovirals.
What do you not understand about that, I am rather puzzled?

The only thing I am do not understand is why you have not responded to my question in this way before. There is nothing controversial or leading edge in this. I am quite happy with the response but it does nothing to cure the virus. Only research will do that and when I suggested that was the case you told us that research was useless and would never find a cure.

Regarding compulsion, I would rather it was not needed and I have no idea how the health agencies would enforce the increased testing that they are advising, however, as I said already if infection rates amongst male homosexuals continue to increase at between 8 and 10% per annum, testing will have to be enforced.

So, once again, how do you suggest the testing is enforced? You say you have no idea how this would be achieved yet continually state it must be done. You must have some idea if you believe so strongly that it must be done 'for their own good'.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 02:18 PM

BTW - What does all this have to do with 'militant atheism'? Why don't you start your own thread on the spread of HIV?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 02:20 PM

"For the interest of anyone still alive and with us, I have on my screen "official" figures of a sort. You see, there are no official figures. There are historical ones and there are predictions. The good news is that despite the wishes of Keith A Hole of Hertford and his pet worm,"


You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty,

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 02:35 PM

It does nothing to cure the virus, but if caught before symptoms appear there is every chance of the patient leading a full and normal life.
Also, the patient becomes much less infectious, so infection is reduced even if the victim behaves irresponsibly.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 02:39 PM

Come on Dave, I said already, the virus may never be cured.
Research must of course go on, but in the meantime, the TRANSMISSION of the disease must be slowed or halted and that is where frequent testing and contact tracing comes in.
The MSM demographic (1.5%) of the population accounts for almost 60% of all new cases of HIV and almost 70 % of all new cases of syphilis, this makes it the major "at risk" group by a huge percentage and the health agencies say that "at risk" groups should be targeted.

I you want to know how the agencies are going to enforce their suggestions.....ask them.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 03:23 PM

Why did you just not say so in the first place, ake? I see nothing untoward in your suggestions. I am still concerned about compulsory testing and where it will lead but that is speculation that I will not indulge in.

As to "the virus may never be cured", what about

this

this or

this


All positive articles indicating that a cure will be found. You are, by your own admission, not a medical expert. Yet you persist in suggesting that testing is the way forward while "the virus may never be cured" by research. Which is it ake? How can you say that testing is the only way forward yet not have the conviction to tell us how you think it should be enforced? How can you say research may never find a cure and yet deny that you are an expert in this field? Make your mind up.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 04:02 PM

Dave on the one hand you say HIV should not be discussed on this thread. On the other hand you continue the discussion.

Is your interest is mature discussion or in finding excuses to berate Ake? Evidence points to the latter.

Please kindly pick one of your positions and stick with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 05:06 PM

one hand you say HIV should not be discussed on this thread

Please point out where monsieur matelot. I think you will find I actually said What does all this have to do with 'militant atheism'? Why don't you start your own thread on the spread of HIV?


I simply questioned the reasoning for doing so, not tried to inhibit it. I will leave that to fundamentalists like the previously mentioned "Reverend" Michael Crook.

If that is what passes for an argument in your circles it is little wonder that Christianity is in trouble.


DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 08:15 PM

On the one hand you berate Ake for discussing HIV on this thread on the other you are unkind, impolite, argumentative, and snooty with me because I point that out.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 03:29 AM

Real liberal minded people wouldn't do that..but 'so-called liberal wannabe's' don't really have too long of an attention span...
That should be self evident....they have to change their excuses to often....the childish tactics remain the same, though...


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 04:19 AM

Dave, you are right in stating that I am no expert, but there are very many viruses for which there are no cure, not just HIV.
HIV/AIDS is a very serious illness causing death or at best, lifetime medication and health care; as this is the case, we need to concentrate on curtailing transmission rates until a "cure" may be found.

There is no cure for cancer, so we enforce rules to stop the disease developing. like the anti smoking laws etc.

I think Jack may have a point, in that these things should be self evident, and you keep asking questions which are not really relevant to the issue.

It is not my job to work out ways of enforcing responsible behaviour in male homosexuals.....but there is certainly a need to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 04:23 AM

On the original subject of the thread, I am an atheist (at present), but see no need to denigrate believers for having the strength to hold a religious faith.

That is what this thread is all about.....Denigration of religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 04:55 AM

There is no cure for cancer, so we enforce rules to stop the disease developing. like the anti smoking laws etc.

But we do put millions of pounds and years of man hours into finding one. And no-one at all is prevented from smoking if they want to do so in the privacy of their own homes.

It is not my job to work out ways of enforcing responsible behaviour in male homosexuals

Then why bring it up at every possible opportunity?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 04:59 AM

Missed one.

That is what this thread is all about.....Denigration of religion.

Errr, no, it is about the denigration of atheism. The title gives us the clue. For the umpteenth time, I, and many others on here, have no issue whatsoever with religion. What we do take exception to is the forced indoctrination of children and the insistence, by some, that religious dogma should be taught as science.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 05:05 AM

You know what the most ironic aspect of this sideshow is?

I keep saying what a problem HIV is, and that it is an issue for the gay population. Those with an agenda insist on saying I am blinkered to the issue and keep saying there is no problem.

There is no problem that needs rounding up sections of society and putting them on a register. There is no problem that curtailing freedom would address. Even if such an action had health benefits, which it clearly wouldn't. In a fit of common sense, Goofus pointed the problem out.

But there is a health problem, and yes, gay people are at risk still, together with heterosexual people. I have patiently explained why here in The UK, we need to employ hundreds of doctors in public health and the support they get because there is no definitive "here is the issue, now fund sorting it" repository of information. The HSCIC is the nearest we have, and other agencies such as HPA / PHE use their figures. Even Keith might be able to find the articles in the last week regarding primary care, ie, people going to their GP with an issue, not being part of the statistics unless they come in much later as a secondary care referral. Hence, and I hate using the term but here goes again, meta analysis of all health related data reveals the huge heterosexual risk. HPA data demonstrates trends based on historical trajectory, and that is useful. Putting it in with other data and applying it locally is what specialised commissioning bodies and CCGs in The NHS do, as just about all sexual health services are publicly funded here. Locally, we are bidding to enlarge the gynaecology service to address the tertiary end of female sexual health issues, and having read the business case only yesterday, the complications from promiscuity are on the increase, including unmet viral complaint, (HIV in the main.)

Apparently, because I am involved in all this, I know less than disgusting homophobes who occasionally let their bigotry slip in this thread and others, revealing their true interest.

Well fuck 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 05:45 AM

The HSCIC is the nearest we have, and other agencies such as HPA / PHE use their figures.

Not true.
HSCIC have no HIV figures.
PHE/HPA do and they clearly show new diagnoses among heterosexuals have been falling for a decade.
Not an estimate, the figures are known exactly up to Dec 2012, and are precise to the nearest 10.


"Keith says heterosexual transmission is falling but it isn't."
Yes it is.
You are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 05:54 AM

"Public Health England (PHE) collects data on sexual health services and sexually transmitted infections (STI) diagnosed in genito-urinary medicine (GUM) clinics and other clinical and community-based settings in England. The data provide information on trends in STI diagnoses over the past ten years and the numbers and rates of diagnoses by sex, age, ethnic group, sexual risk and geographical distribution. Trends on the provision of GUM services, including sexual health screening and vaccinations, are also presented."

"The report, Sexually transmitted infections and chlamydia screening in England, 2012, in PHE's Health Protection Report, presents the most recent information on trends in STI diagnoses and a summary of chlamydia screening activity in England. This annual publication provides useful background for interpreting patterns of STIs in England and their implications for programme planning and public health policy."

"Updated: 17 December 2013"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 06:12 AM

PHE responsibilities.(extract)

•sharing our information and expertise with local authorities, industry and the NHS, to help them make improvements in the public's health
•researching, collecting and analysing data to improve our understanding of health and come up with answers to public health problems

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 08:14 AM

Ian continually gives the impression that infection rates for hetero men and male homosexuals are roughly on a par.

This is a deliberate lie.
Infection rates for male homosexuals are massively higher than for male heterosexuals, or indeed for any other demographic.

Ian knows or should know this very well, but to defend his agenda he is prepared to lie and obfuscate.

Several years ago HPA stated that homosexuals were almost 50 times more likely to develop HIV/AIDS, than heterosexuals.
These figures must have worsened with the increase in infection rates amongst male homosexuals.
Why is this the case Ian?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 12:10 PM

Some of us, Dave, don't like the religious position of evolutionism , under the guise of science, indoctrinating our kids..........one mans science is another mans myth!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 12:36 PM

the religious position of evolutionism , under the guise of science,

You really have no fucking idea what you're talking about, do you pete?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 12:44 PM

Rather tedious when what you have been saying is repeated in a cut and paste, demonstrating what you have said all along, but presented to make it look like you were lying?

I give up. Forecasts, predictions and data exist in any modelling. The picture on sexual health is similar to many other health specialties, a developing agenda where the need on the ground is rarely in tune with the perceived need.

Not that any of that is relevant. Keith A Hole of Hertford has ably demonstrated that 67% of the unmet need is not of gay origin. So the less we hear of rounding up gay people in order to solve an issue that can only be partially solved by the successful interventions in place, the better.

Perverted? Not normal? Not natural? Against God's wishes? Apologise worm, or at least have the decency to be ashamed of yourself.

Out of interest, I have no agenda. I get just as frustrated over false flag incidence statistics in many other areas of health. It's just that at this point, nobody is linking cancer, diabetes or CHD to "unnatural" lifestyle that requires the rest of us to round them up and force them to undergo tests purely to have a red stamp on the record society would hold.

Sick puppy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 12:58 PM

Dave, you Steve and Ian have referred to people of faith who write here as if they were idiots, they have also been the butt of many lame jokes.

Although Frank may have been sincere in his OP, the thread has degenerated into a snide little gang insulting people because of their beliefs.
Pete has had to put up with a lot of stupid name calling, but has behaved impeccably, coming out to this debate with great credit.

I will admit Dave, that you are not the worst offender.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 01:50 PM

Dave, you Steve and Ian have referred to people of faith who write here as if they were idiots

Examples please, ake. Give me a link to a post where I suggest people of faith are idiots. Otherwise withdraw the statement.

I may believe that one or two people who do have faith are also idiots but I have never suggested that having faith is the basis for idiocy. Pushing your own faith on others is stupid but having faith yourself is not. My Grandfather was a priest. My Father is still, even in his dementia, a man of great faith. Neither were idiots. Neither have ever suggested anyone should be murdered because they believe any differently. Neither tried to force me or my siblings to believe their version of religion.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 03:07 PM

It could be construed from the following epithets (just from the first few pages), that you view your fellow debaters with more than a little disdain?


"Bollocks" and a further twelve equally humorous variants.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 03:59 PM

Rather tedious when what you have been saying is repeated in a cut and paste, demonstrating what you have said all along, but presented to make it look like you were lying?

No.
You claimed the opposite was true.
That is why I posted the truth.
Sorry it makes it look like you were lying.


"Keith says heterosexual transmission is falling but it isn't."

It is, and has been for a decade according to the only official figures which I will happily quote again.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 04:04 PM

So disappointing ruining a perfectly good rule following post with this.


Apparently, because I am involved in all this, I know less than disgusting homophobes who occasionally let their bigotry slip in this thread and others, revealing their true interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 04:13 PM

Dave you treated me like an idiot for simply paraphrasing you. It is clear enough that your intent was to berate Ake. Also your mocking participation in Shaw and Ian's "new religion." is a few steps beyond unkind. You can demand literal quotations until the cows come home but your intent and your actions are clear enough.

"one hand you say HIV should not be discussed on this thread

Please point out where monsieur matelot. I think you will find I actually said What does all this have to do with 'militant atheism'? Why don't you start your own thread on the spread of HIV?


I simply questioned the reasoning for doing so, not tried to inhibit it. I will leave that to fundamentalists like the previously mentioned "Reverend" Michael Crook.

If that is what passes for an argument in your circles it is little wonder that Christianity is in trouble."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 04:35 PM

From Ian.....No 1 candidate for stupidest statement on this thread.

OUT OF INTEREST, I HAVE NO AGENDA. I get just as frustrated over false flag incidence statistics in many other areas of health. It's just that at this point, nobody is linking cancer, diabetes or CHD to "unnatural" lifestyle that requires the rest of us to round them up and force them to undergo tests purely to have a red stamp on the record society would hold.

Capitalised....the biggest lie on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 04:37 PM

"Some of us, Dave, don't like the religious position of evolutionism , under the guise of science, indoctrinating our kids..........one mans science is another mans myth! "

Pete, pete, pete,

You know that evolution is not a myth. Evolutionism if it exists, is not practiced by anyone on this forum. In my education, like most of us, I was told that evolution was a scientific theory and was given the evidence that and told of the discoveries that supported it one after another.

In Sunday school I was told that God did such and such and was given cartoon pictures of Noah's flood and rainbows which was God's promise that it would not happen again. Beautiful stories and myths of collective consciousness, but Newton told us about the physical reality of rainbows didn't he.

It is easy to see which method is education and which is indoctrination.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 04:41 PM

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/2014/01/selective-literalism.html

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 04:56 PM

1700?????!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 06:11 PM

It could be construed from the following epithets (just from the first few pages), that you view your fellow debaters with more than a little disdain?


"Bollocks" and a further twelve equally humorous variants.



Deary, deary me, ake. If you had read a little deeper you would have noticed that 'Bollocks' was an inspired salutation suggested by Don T. It was adopted by me as being a suitable substitute for 'Amen' which is already taken by a number of existing religions. Please do look further than the end of your nose when endeavouring to prove me wrong. Now, how about a real example of me suggesting that people of faith are idiots.

Jack. No idea what you are on about. You have still not said where I tried to inhibit the discussion of homosexuality. I thought telling lies was a sin to you devout folks?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 06:11 PM

"Time for bed",said Zebedee.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 06:47 PM

"Jack. No idea what you are on about. You have still not said where I tried to inhibit the discussion of homosexuality. I thought telling lies was a sin to you devout folks? "

I haven't said that you "tried to inhibit the discussion of homosexuality" tossing me a straw man eh? What do you take me for? An idiot?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 01:24 AM

I've been known to, if that helps, sailor boy.

You are slightly naive too if you think logic and common sense is going to influence the rather sinister words of pete in his latest bollocks. ( Unlike my learned friend of Gnomish heritage, I use the word for abuse as well as salutation.)

Worm, seeing people as your equal isn't an agenda, it's amongst other things a prerequisite in decent society.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 02:57 AM

akenaton: Date: 07 Jan 14 - 12:58 PM
"Dave, you Steve and Ian have referred to people of faith who write here as if they were idiots, they have also been the butt of many lame jokes."

Hi, Ake!
Follow me on this one...

The reason they do that is how they've come to assimilate 'reality'... in the material world...which can be measured, calculated, manipulated into political and religious systems for controlling the masses. So their concepts of 'religious' and/or political order is view from the material world, to work its way upward to a 'better system'...even if they have to destroy one or the other to accomplish it.

But you referred to .."...people of faith who write here...". See the 'faith' part is what throws them off. If you say, 'people of faith', well, that is automatically thought of as being a religion, or religious based doctrinal stance, from an establish religion...and being as they are already material based targets, as politics, they can rip each other's eyes out..and do so accurately...BUT...there is a completely DIFFERENT connotation to your phrase, 'people of faith'..to which is NOT subject to the realms of the material....and that is those who have been accessed to 'Conscientiousness'...as opposed to 'Materialism'. Those who can see a collective higher reality, have a very difficult time conveying what that is, to a world, that has redefined some of the terms, as merely to relaying to a materialist church entity...consequently, they have a hard time articulating that which has been accessed to 'consciousness' into the material frame of reference.
They are two completely different worlds of thought...and as far as politics and religion those are the lower forms....Conscientiousness being the higher.....but its harder to be accurate in that one, and still manipulate masses of people....so the ennoble the two lower forms, and play their games...for, well greed, lusts, pride, admiration, wealth, power, sensuousness, notoriety and other fantasies, that can only come true by the power they suck off other people.....However, had they have got their insights from Conscientiousness, those methods would be completely a useless folly....so they call 'people of faith' idiots...but only because 'people of faith' aren't listening to being controlled by a lower nature of intelligence.

That was simple.

Here's a simple illustration..
The frame of mind one is in while composing/building/crafting/etc a piece of fine music....versus the frame of mind of selling it.


Here..remember this one?..It speaks of the same:

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 06:28 PM

"Oh, I know...Disregard, for yourself and your fellow mankind, IS in FACT....STUPIDITY!!.....and fucking stupidity has killed more on the planet, than all the intentional ill-intent!!!

Its roots begin with 'ones feelings for self gratification'.....and by lying to ourselves creating another."

..and all that killing was facilitated through the use of a religion or political notion...How fucking intelligent is THAT??????????????

"Everyone else can fill in their own conclusion.....(s)......"

Regards!!...Especially to those who got their 'Faith' from the intelligence gathers, from visit 'Conscientiousness'....or even the reverse......

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 04:51 AM

From: Jack the Sailor - PM
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 04:02 PM

Dave on the one hand you say HIV should not be discussed on this thread....

From: Jack the Sailor - PM
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 06:47 PM
...

I haven't said that you "tried to inhibit the discussion of homosexuality"

No straw men here Sailorboy. Look at the facts. Now you will never get to heaven!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 05:00 AM

Hi Goofus.

I'm glad you asked the worm to follow you, because I got lost at the first junction.

You do seem to know a lot about people. How much do you charge for a session? On your couch? I can bring my own pocket watch if you wish, I have a small collection that I swallow from time to time. It helps pass the time away.

Don't lecture me on materialism. I have ultimate faith in Sheffield Wednesday.....

I also have a degree of faith in human nature. It isn't irrational to dismiss the fairies at the bottom of the garden though. The worm too dismisses fairies, but with sinister intent.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 05:07 AM

I wont be trawling for more examples Dave, your equation of "Bollocks" etc, etc, etc, with "Amen" is quite enough to be going on with.
I am sure most people of faith here would find that extremely offensive and a sign that you saw them and their views as idiotic.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 05:17 AM

Sanity....Thanks for that post, and it reflects almost exactly the views of "militant atheists" as I see them.
"Faith" is a real obstacle to their agenda, which is ultimately to have power over others, not for the benefit of society, but to enhance the personal power of the self proclaimed "Messiahs"( Dawkins et al!)....:0)

Best wishes   Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 05:23 AM

I wont be trawling for more examples

Pity really, because you will not find any. Still, I take that as your acceptance that it is so.

I am sure most people of faith here would find that extremely offensive and a sign that you saw them and their views as idiotic.

I am sure most people 'of faith' here can speak for themselves and, even if they could not, would prefer to elect their own spokesman. I have already said, but will repeat it as you seem to not understand what I say and I will assume that is my fault, I do not view people 'of faith' as stupid or idiotic. I view people who try to foist their own faith on others as the truth and brainwash innocent children as both dangerous and idiotic.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 12:43 PM

I love how someone can be indignant on behalf of religious people but by calling himself an atheist, infer he is above their superstition too.

If "bollocks" is offensive, is two men playing with each other's bollocks offensive? If so, how?

Most people find your outbursts offensive worm, so how the flying fuck can you admonish people for posting things you claim are offensive to others ? Dave doesn't call large sections of society perverts, he doesn't say they exist outside of natural law, he doesn't wish they were rounded up and assaulted.

By the way, I sincerely hope your new troll is mistaken.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 12:44 PM

There are other ways of making your point Dave. Personally I don't believe in "indoctrination" on any subject either.

Ian is as "fundamental" as any mad Muslim in the support of his "faith"; look at the length he goes to in abuse and attempted intimidation.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 02:29 PM

Now listen!! I am an everyday sort of a chappess, without an axe to grind with any one? is this making sense up to now?

But when I hear words like indoctrination, fundamental, I do get a little fecked up in me head.. but listen, when me sweet baby muskett starts talikng about other dudes clems/ bollocks.. whooooooho!!! sweet cheeks...I am starting to smell/taste the cheese!!

Bloody Hell!!! the ultra rightwing swinging pricks, Gnomet, Jerk the sailior and Alkeneton are at it again with their usual tediouse, misguided Daily Mail reading right wing buffoonery..Hey barnacle balls, drop the god bothering pose, we all know what you are?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 02:35 PM

Jack ,jack ,jack! I bet the so called evidences for Darwinism you learnt in your youth are in the evolution dustbin now and the theory has changed a lot since then, hardly recognisable from the story fifty years ago. Ok....I admit it,...I read that on cmi. But if that's not true lets have that evidence that so strongly supports evolutionism,   What's with the rainbow and Newton?   He wrote more about theology than the science he is so rightly lauded for, and I am sure he had the understanding that discovering the natural laws behind a rainbow, or any other phenomenon , in no way negates the divinity who created everything and the natural laws by which they operate.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 03:01 PM

Musket: "I also have a degree of faith in human nature. It isn't irrational to dismiss the fairies at the bottom of the garden though. The worm too dismisses fairies, but with sinister intent."

A degree in human nature???..Does it include what they are ignoring which has been theirs all along??

Dave the Gnome: "I view people who try to foist their own faith on others as the truth and brainwash innocent children as both dangerous and idiotic."

By people foisting their faith on others, are you referring to religious (dogma), political (propaganda), or atheist (tired of fucking with working it up)?....or all of them??

Ake: "Sanity....Thanks for that post, and it reflects almost exactly the views of "militant atheists" as I see them."

"reflects almost exactly"....yeah..sorry for the typos!

Regards All!..Hope you all find conscientiousness...or find happiness clinging to your favorite illusion!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 03:29 PM

I wouldn't write off fairies either Sanity, the folks of the Scottish West Coast always believed in the spirits of nature...there is a great rock mound not far from where I live, which has always been known as the "Fairy Knowe".

The old one used to tell the stories of singing and music coming from the summit on summer nights....the strange lights and fires set on the flat top
Rivers streams and woodland all had their guardian sprites.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 03:43 PM

Ian, I don't think I am in the least above "their superstition" I think it takes great strength of character to have a belief in spirituality, whether it be in nature or in God.
At present I have difficulties with the idea of "the priesthood" or the organisation of religion, but I would like to have a faith.

Maybe someday...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 03:57 PM

>>You are slightly naive too if you think logic and common sense is going to influence the rather sinister words of pete in his latest bollocks. ( Unlike my learned friend of Gnomish heritage, I use the word for abuse as well as salutation.) <<

Do think the proper approach to influencing someone is to slap them down and insult them as a nun might in a Catholic school?

Oh ye of so much faith and religious tactic! Who is the Atheist here?

I'm not trying to influence pete. I'm just sharing my point of disagreement an my own experience as one adult to another.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 04:53 PM

Ake: "I wouldn't write off fairies either Sanity,..."

Just make sure they all get tested for HIV!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 05:07 PM

" I bet the so called evidences for Darwinism you learnt in your youth are in the evolution dustbin now and the theory has changed a lot since then, hardly recognisable from the story fifty years ago."

You would lose that bet.


"Darwinism?" Did I say "Darwinism?" :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 05:10 PM

Where's the missing link???????????
Methinks it's in the 'logic'!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 05:12 PM

By people foisting their faith on others, are you referring to religious (dogma), political (propaganda), or atheist (tired of fucking with working it up)?....or all of them??


All of them in theory. But unlike the religious and political I see no evidence of the atheist, even the militant variety if it does indeed exist, causing wars and suffering in it's name. If there are any doing so, I would abhor them along with the other fanatics. Please guide me to anything that proves otherwise and I shall study it with interest.

No idea what you mean by 'tired of fucking with working it up'.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 05:15 PM

Methinks Pete is a belever in as well as a practitioner of Bullshitism.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 06:33 PM

"Methinks Pete is a belever in as well as a practitioner of Bullshitism. "

Are you implying that his BS is out of place in this, of all places?


There is no doubt in my mind that he is pulling chains and enjoying it.

It is the name calling and other unkind, argumentative vitriol from his detractors that is out of place.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 06:44 PM

Are you implying that his BS is out of place in this, of all places?

Not at all. Its just that his line of BS is exceptionally idiotic. He could bullshit for England.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 07:02 PM

I see you are still trying out for USA Vitriol.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 11:21 PM

So, to be a religious militant atheist, you have to have nothing to do with God....but God is Love....so if you don't want Love..Fuck you..you deserve what you get...and shut the fuck up about it!..What did you expect??..Empathy???....

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 11:23 PM

Understanding???...Fuck No!..Why should we???..Because we're Expected to???

Hey, fuck off with that 'FAITH in us' shit!


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 01:25 AM

I spent my youth trying to find love. Never occurred to me to look in churches for it , although apparently I might have found sex after a fashion.

By the way Goofus. I said I had a degree of faith in human nature. You altered it to a degree in faith in human nature. Naughty ......

Eyup lover!! If men playing with each other's bollocks is sexy talk on my part, wait till I regale you with an account of the moves leading up to Sheridan's goal in the 1991 League Cup Final.

Worm. Want to find faith? Really? Lose the bigotry and hate. Could be a good start. Although when picking a cult within a faith, you may have the opportunity to find it again.

Jack. I reckon pete is the real deal. By saying he is pulling our chains is about as insulting to him as you reckon I am to you. Trust me on that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 04:24 AM

Well, I didn't think universities were handing out degrees in it...but you never know on ..or, in..Mudcat!....jeez,maybe I was giving you more credit than you thought....
Oh well, Cheers!


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 04:58 AM

Don't give me credit Goofus me old teapot, I have my street cred to think about.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 10:00 AM

Prunery, buffoonery,mummery, ginger cake eating seventh day ball turning over cretinisity, carried out by the usual thumb sucking dribbling no marks...I see nowt has changed since last year except a tad more boringisity...glad to see me sweet bay muskett is keeping the faith..how are there hanging sweet pants..?xxxxxxxxxxxx... mmwah!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket swooning
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 10:37 AM

They are hanging all the better for hearing from you sugar drawers xxxxxxx

Just off to get a cold shower

Ok back now.



Did you know that a professor noted that not only does one hang lower than the other, but gravity gets it wrong as the smaller one is normally lower than the larger one. And that Greek sculptures are wrong.

That got him an Ig Nobel Prize, that did.

In fact, if you hang low long enough, Keith A hole of Hertford will google his name for us. Together with the bits I got wrong, and therefore not a reliable posting type person.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 11:01 AM

I,m all for an adult exchange of ideas, jack, but as you are sure that I would lose a bet on any Darwinian proofs being still convincingly offered after say, fifty year on, I invite you to elucidate.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 12:05 PM

I see you are still trying out for USA Vitriol

Nah, I got booted on the first cut. I'm strictly an amateur, Jack.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 04:49 PM

Nope, not in the dustbin, quite recognizable. You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 05:04 AM

What's a Darwinian proof? I thought that as a scientist he researched and proposed a hypothesis?

Just because his Dad wanted him to be a vicar, doesn't mean he had learned how to demand nonsense as fact because it has some biblical kite mark. In fact, his superstitious upbringing hampered his efforts somewhat. So sad.

The age of discovery and enlightenment managed, as ever, to provoke a superstitious backlash. 'Twas ever thus.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 05:41 AM

"The age of discovery and enlightenment managed, as ever, to provoke a superstitious backlash. 'Twas ever thus."

'Twas the night before Christmas.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 07:55 PM

that did not elucidate at all, jack. just another assertion.
you sure I lose?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 08:01 PM

Lose what??..NOTHING!!...You understand something, somehow not conveying it to where someone else understands it...Doesn't mean you lost anything.
If it's tangible to you....you still have it....oh, and BTW, I'm NOT ragging on you....


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 08:13 PM

you still have it.

Question is, can it be cured?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 11:55 PM

We are talking about a bet Gfs. you can lose a bet if you make an unwise one,

I would accept pete's challenge except that he is trying to change the terms. I said" told of the discoveries that supported it one after another."

he wants to change that to.

" Darwinian proofs being still convincingly offered"

As I have no idea what a Darwinian proof might be and since the statement I made was about the way the evidence was prevented, not precisely what evidence, I win the bet.

If pete wants to waste my time presenting pseudo-scientific gibberish at me all I can say is that I don't believe there is any evidence that trilobites and dinosaurs coexisted. It does not say so in the Bible and that his guesses as to what happened in far pre-history are far less informed than, say Dawkins'.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 12:29 AM

Oh..OK...are you guys still debating that??..Jeez, that's been running for a couple of years now.....I think before you two resolve that, we may evolve to yet another life-form!..or slip back into primordial slime.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 02:53 AM

I can name one individual who is already part of Goofus's primordial slime.

I don't think it is evolution though. Regression maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 04:56 PM

O dear..I see Seamen Staynes is back in this rather pointless debate.Along with his stable mate, the arch fraud gnoming, the bumbling hominid seems hell bent in messing up a perfectly good debate on religion and atheism.

As usual he is back to his usual form in being very quick to invoke the threads police if there is a sniff of some one breaking his supposed rules...wake up sneak..no one likes a brown nose.
Why don't you leave the thread to sensible positive people like sweet cheeks musket and moi?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 06:47 PM

ok jack, if I changed the terms of the "bet" .I apologize. I assume you have more to offer than trilobites and dinos in different places in the geologic column, so please elucidate on your own terms .
btw - on the above,-under the vast earth shattering conditions of the global flood we should expect some sorting of organisms, and also some exceptions to what would be expected, and I think both scenarios are documented.
and while you mention pseudo science-
Piltdown man,-a poor forgery but as evolutionism was[and still is] assumed ,it was four decades before it was rumbled.
subsequent discoveries purporting to be pre human in the evolution bin. was it nebraskah man that was imagined and illustrated from a single tooth, which turned out to be from a pig?!
so called vestigial organs supposedly leftovers from evolution, now known to be nothing of the sort.
the junk dna idea which supposedly also evolutions not needed leftovers is quickly getting junked as increasingly functions are found.
and of course there is still the little matter of those dino bones exhibiting signs of being no where near 65 MYO. But because you "know" the evolution story is true you now "know" that soft tissue etc can last that long !.

and I know that no matter how many examples I may present , the true believers will just say creationists are selective in presenting their evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 07:44 PM

OK, pete, your faith that there was a worldwide flood within the past 6,000 years is impressive. But two can play the picking holes in the details card if we are to toss out the scientific method. Tells us, how did the kangaroos get to Noah and after the flood was over, how did they get back to Australia. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 02:29 AM

I can't help you with that Jerk. But with all those animals , there must have been a hell of a lot of mucking out required. If you toss it overboard, something has to happen to it.

As Christopher Columbus found out.







Hi sexy drawers!   xx.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 01:07 PM

Do I assume jack, that you are backing off from the bet?   Avoidance by way of throwing up a different challenge instead?      And as my last post detailed, seems to me it is the evolutionists that often ..toss out the scientific method.      Please rest assured that the kangaroos and down under are not new objections and there are answers. I will be happy to supply such just as soon as you confirm you have pulled out of the bet, or supply an answer to the aforementioned..............musket, a scientist has done a feasibility study on the ark , including the problem of waste product.....not that you really want an answer,   I suspect!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 04:12 PM

Can I please ask a question? How do you no hopers get from religion to kangaroos in one easy move?.If barnacle balls is as much of a mariner as he claims, he would have been instructing Noah how to get his kangaroos down under?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 04:58 PM

I won the bet. You bet that I had seen the evidence for evolution for natural selection disproved. I haven't. Now how about them Kangaroos?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 05:15 PM

I am genuinely fascinated that someone worked put how much shit two by two of everything makes.

Did he include those creatures that have been discovered since biblical times ? About 99.9999998% of them at latest count.




Bloody hell. He's got me at it now.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 06:17 PM

Genesis 7

New International Version (NIV)

7 The Lord then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

That is a rather Eurocentric view Musket. The vast majority of land animals and Birds had been discovered by someone by 3,000 - 4,000 years ago when that was written. They just weren't named and classified by European scientists. Forget the Kangas pete. Tell me how Noah took care of these guys.   Galápagos tortoise

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 02:36 AM

Yes, but had those "someone" been discovered by Noah?

Galapagos tortoises are one thing. Their finches didn't travel far for their holidays either.

You see, creationists go out of their way to ensure people point and laugh. The perfectly reasonable contribution to society that religions can offer gets drowned out in the mirth and piss taking.

Why?

Because they are your reps. They are the real Christians who take it seriously. They are the ones knocking on doors and spreading the word.

They are the ones responsible for society increasingly dismissing the whole concept of religion as a factor in life.

Where you live, my experience is that religion is more mainstream and accepted as part of life. Here, I find it is tolerated rather than embraced. I support a hospital chaplaincy team in a large city. They may be vicars, Imams etc, but the service they offer is spiritual help in the broadest sense. Social workers without the imperative to plan discharge, that's how I describe them. Their work describes a role in the community at large. Their caseload is huge, mainly because their role isn't to sell their creed. They are popular with all, not just the religious minority. (The two Imams are in most demand as people perceive vicars as wanting to sell Jesus, even though ours don't.).

It would be sad if that service to society was drowned out in a sea of irrelevance, but the more religious people push an illogical agenda, promote misogyny, bigotry and guilt, the more doors slam on fingers that think if they are kept in the door frame, Musket won't shut the door. Misplaced faith if ever I saw it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 10:36 AM

Musket.

You say that Ake is a bigot, on the other hand you say that the people I argue with about these very issues represent me.


To say the least, I find that logic problematic. It reflects upon your credibility.

Why don't moderate Christians condemn the fringe? Maybe they are too busy being Christians. Maybe as Joe suggested, there is no point. There will always be illogical crazy people on the fringe.

Why don't Atheists control the crazy atheists?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 12:36 PM

You call yourself a Christian. You quote the bible at me, most recently yesterday. I don't quote from the standing orders of Sheffield Wednesday Football Club Ltd, so why you think quoting the bible at me is a good idea, I don't know?

If it waddles and quacks, you ain't a bigot for calling it a duck.

An argumentative duck to be fair, and one who I have noticed questioning other ducks, but happy to wear a huge badge saying "I go well with hoi sin sauce."

You ask why don't atheists control crazy atheists? Possibly because there are no atheists to do so. Lack of a belief system isn't a belief system. I'm not an atheist so crazy atheists are as crazy as crazy members of The Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster from where I am sitting.

Funny how you pounce on irrelevancies but fail to acknowledge my consistent plea for religion to have something relevant to offer society at large. I see the good, but the "leaders" can do more. Drop the misogyny. Drop the support for homophobia. Drop the contempt for other cults. Or stop questioning society's increasing hostility to attempts to influence it. Where you live, despite the religious overtones, politics and religion are separate. Here, bishops scrutinise legislation in the upper house. Perhaps disestablishment could help both sides, but in the same way we scrutinise politicians, bishops must get used to scrutiny or get out of The House of Lords. Their moral authority doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 01:13 PM

I quoted the Bible at you because you claimed that you knew something about Christians that was clearly untrue. You ought to know, with all your talk of indoctrination, that what Christians are indoctrinated in is usually words from the Bible, what they generally take most seriously are quotes attributed to Jesus Christ in the Bible.

Most Christians, including myself, say the Lords Prayer more often than any other piece of prose.

"It is forgive us our trespasses and we forgive those who trespass against us. I am sorry. But there is nothing in that, that gives US the right or responsibility to go out and forgive third parties for their sins. We can tell you that the Lord will forgive you if you want it and if you do a few simple but admittedly difficult things.   
We can only forgive those who trespass against us. For instance, pete can forgive you for the way you treat him but not for the way you treat me. Likewise I can and do forgive you for what you try to do t me. But I can't forgive you for doing the same to others. So I want you to knock it off. I am trying to get you to knock it off. And except when you bring it up directly. I am trying not to offend you with talk of religion.

I am sorry I did not explain this aspect more fully. I assumed a certain basic knowledge on your part. Maybe I feared that you would accuse me of talking down to you if I explained it more fully. In either case. I take responsibility for communicating poorly. Please forgive me.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 06:00 PM

did you read the link you supplied ,jack, on giant tortoise- something about large reserves of water and fat, making them ideal for long ocean crossing....reckon noahs crew did not have to do much for them!.
the bet! looking back, I think the challenge was for you to produce whatever evidence for evolutionism that is still the same since you learned it in your youth. the invitation to do so still stands but it seems you have backed off.
and so I will answer your kango challenge-   after the flood, land animals could have traversed seas on massive vegetation rafts, transported by men on boats, or now submerged land bridges, and fourthly a combination of the former.
be careful before you charge me with fanciful ideas - evolutionists posit this sort of thing too ,to explain global distribution and island hopping of animals and plant life.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 06:19 PM

Could have been transported by men? Good one! According to the account there were what? 4 men left on Noah, so if two bring back the tortoises, two the kangas and such, two for the dodos, two for the moose and grizzlies two for the caribou,etc etc once all that was done,who had time to be fruitful and multiply?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 06:55 PM

" 4 men left on Noah"

should be

4 men left left after the flood... sorry..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 06:41 AM

That isn't how it was put Jack. If it were, I would be happy not to trawl it up but it was quite obvious that I said that forgiveness is a human not a Christian trait and to forgive a fellow person is as a person, unless the person being forgiven takes it in a Christian meaning.

You then quoted the bible at me, thus reiterating that being a Christian is an important part of forgiving.

Does that mean that if I forgive someone, it is real forgiveness whereas someone forgiving because it is expected of them is somehow false? That's an interpretation of your stance.

At least you say trespasses. On those few occasions I find myself in a church, modern wording grates somewhat. King James is comforting, even to those of us for whom anything above the words washes over.

I see it as music without lyrics.

You keep making the mistake of confusing lack of understanding with asserting that understanding isn't necessary to form a view of the effect. Your continued analysis of why I don't suffer fools gladly on the BS section gets wider of the mark each time. And that is a shame, because it have no reason to believe you are a bad man, none at all. Your ability to bring out the worst in people is your weakness.



Got me at it now.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 09:53 AM

"The whole Christian ethos is around everyone being sinners and it is up to Christianity to forgive them. "


This is how you put it. It is incorrect. I quoted the Bible to show that at the source level, at the level of indoctrination it is incorrect.

I am sorry for not having thrown your words right back at you in quotes but I fear that If I had, you would have complained about that. As you have said your mission it to punish what you consider bad behavior with words. Not to enlighten.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 10:38 AM

I have little to enlighten with. But once the scorn, envy, bigotry and agenda driven drivel is exposed and sent packing, it leaves space for those, many of them, who can enliven us and enrich the debates.

Fed up of getting pms from those who just cannot enter a debate whilst the less savoury elements are in play. To be fair, there will be those who don't like the use of bollocks, fuck, shit and wobbly bits but you can't please everyone.

One word of advice. Source level semantics may be of use in a theology thesis, but my comment was typical of what many Christians would be comfortable with. Whether by Christianity we mean some God construction or what Christianity actually is, a collection of people, my observation, simplistic as it is, is valid in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 12:36 PM

>>>One word of advice. Source level semantics may be of use in a theology thesis, but my comment was typical of what many Christians would be comfortable with. Whether by Christianity we mean some God construction or what Christianity actually is, a collection of people, my observation, simplistic as it is, is valid in my opinion. <<<

The above is way more than one word. It is not phrased as advice. My point is that nearly every Christian repeats it every day. The idea that they do so thinking it means "it is our duty to forgive all the sinners even if they have not sinned against us" is pretty stupid.

Would you care to point us to some people who are "comfortable" with your interpretation? I thought not.

You opinion on the matter of "The whole Christian" ethos is every bit as valid as your assertion that the passage quoted above is "one word of advice."

"You then quoted the bible at me, thus reiterating that being a Christian is an important part of forgiving."

In summary, I did not quote the Bible to show that "being a Christian is an important part of forgiving." I quoted the Bible to show that forgiving was an important part of being Christian. Since a main question was "Am I a rubbish Christian?" I thought that the Bible, especially what Christ said about forgiving, was appropriate. You did not understand what he said or what most Christians believe, because they repeat it every day. I tried to explain it to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket confused
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 12:49 PM

I doubt every person claiming to be a Christian thinks as deeply as that to be honest. Most peoples' faith is far more simple and less complicated.

"A word" doesn't imply a single construct of letters to form a term identifiable by means of lexicon entry, it means a short education in this context.

Your logic chopping use of context is a feature of your interpretation of debate, or contradiction, to give your style a more appropriate name. The hang up over turn of phrase is just childish.

"She " by the way, not "he."   Where I come from, "she" would, at this point, retort with " Who's she? The cat's mother?"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 02:47 PM

"you have to have nothing to do with God....but God is Love....so if you don't want Love"

If Atheists could not (as your comment implies) experience love, pretty soon there would be no Atheists. In fact logic suggests that, were there any sense in it, they've already died out and you are arguing about nothing................NO CHANGE THERE THEN!
_________________________________________________________

"Why don't Atheists control the crazy atheists?"

Precisely because Atheists are not a community, militant or otherwise, so the crazy ones are simply ignored.

Religions, on the other hand, canonise the craziest in their ranks and elevate the less crazy to Cardinals or Popes.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 03:18 PM

>>
Precisely because Atheists are not a community, militant or otherwise, so the crazy ones are simply ignored.

Religions, on the other hand, canonise the craziest in their ranks and elevate the less crazy to Cardinals or Popes. <<

Are you implying that Christianity is a community militant or otherwise? There are communities of Atheists. There are communities of Christians. No one speaks for either as a whole.

I can point out some pretty crazy, self described Christians that are not canonized and who are criticized.

Likewise I could mention some less than logical and scientific atheists who receive praise and encouragement from those who should know better. Some even sell a lot of books.

Burning Korans to piss off Muslims or diagnosing half the planet as having a "delusion" to sell a few more tickets to staged "arguments" on a book tour are simply different sides of the same coin.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 03:15 AM

Book burning is slightly unambiguous to say the least.

Diagnosing delusion at least gives you the right to a second opinion.

Anyway, considering religion is a man made construction yet requires it's adherents to believe otherwise, the word delusion is accurate. So why see it as an insult?

Perhaps it is seem as an insult because the point of the exercise is to ensure those laughing be bound by the concept too.

Ain't going to happen. Very few people over here are happy to see their children's minds played with any more. I am rather optimistic by seeing people ask why they should respect organisations that don't respect equality. That such attitudes are seen as "persecution" just makes the concept all the more absurd.

You know.. The freedom to have your faith and get something out of it is being eroded by those wearing the dog collars on a Sunday, not those out walking their dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 06:46 PM

Jack...whoever said that Noah and his sons had to take the animals anywhere. They spread out by themselves over x number of years.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 07:17 PM

So all of these exotic animals hang around for year after year waiting for their ride home? :-)

You know what the are gonna do to pass the time.... ;-D

If they wait for Noah's grandkids to grow into men, they are going to need more than rafts. to bring them home. LOLOLOL

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 01:31 AM

Now now. That sounds like taking the piss out of poor pete and belittling his version of delusion.

I reckon Max wrote a rule about that.




The amoeba went in two by four by sixteen by sixty four by two hundred and fifty five by....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 09:40 AM

Poor o'l barnacle balls!! I think he has finally lost moving on from his nautical pretensions he has now turned into some class of a faux religious medicane man or shaman; sorry should that not be charleton?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 10:47 AM

I recon that pete has been taking the piss out of you all for years.

I recon that if pete believes it, what I think doesn't matter. If he doesn't if it is just argument for its own sake I am giving him what he wants. Either way. Its not unkind. You might try to notice that I was laughing at crazy ideas that popped into my own head not laughing at him. I didn't call him a name. I didn't imply that he was delusional.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 10:48 AM

>>Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened - PM
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 09:40 AM

Poor o'l barnacle balls!! I think he has finally lost moving on from his nautical pretensions he has now turned into some class of a faux religious medicane man or shaman; sorry should that not be charleton?<<

Blatant disrespect for the rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 12:49 PM

Well, well, well Seaman Staynes, I see you are still playing the part of a toad eating sneak.

was you ever bullied at school by the by? I bet you adopted this faux matelot image to make yer-self look tough.. don't you realise we are all on to you for the salt stayned gobshite you undoubtedly are..take sweet cheeks advice why don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 12:54 PM

"From: GUEST,concerened - PM
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 12:49 PM

Well, well, well Seaman Staynes, I see you are still playing the part of a toad eating sneak.

was you ever bullied at school by the by? I bet you adopted this faux matelot image to make yer-self look tough.. don't you realise we are all on to you for the salt stayned gobshite you undoubtedly are..take sweet cheeks advice why don't you? "

violation of forum rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 01:20 PM

I dint really know what the scenario is that you are mocking , jack, except that it might be a straw man argument.maybe you just don't comprehend the argument. Have you ever considered population growth rates in men or in animals. Whoever said Noah's gran kids relocated the animals?   We are talking distribution in modern and living or recorded memory. Between Noah and historical record there would be innumerable generations in which men and animals spread out to repopulate the earth, by the means of which I formerly discussed.    You may think the biblical record is nonsense , but I am making intelligent suggestions, based on believing that record. If you can only counter by mocking, you are on your way to musket land!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 02:07 PM

" We are talking distribution in modern and living or recorded memory. Between Noah and historical record there would be innumerable generations in which men and animals spread out to repopulate the earth, by the means of which I formerly discussed. "

I am afraid you are incorrect sir. The generations between Noah and historical times are not innumerable at all but they are indeed chronicled in the Bible. They have indeed been "numerated" (counted) by Biblical scholars. That the major reason that many people who share your faith in what you would call a literal interpretation of the Bible seem to believe in so called "young Earth" theories.

You seem to be saying to me that it is more plausible that in less than 3,000 years (estimated time from Noah to Moses by Biblical time line) that Noah, some how went to Australia and everywhere else with different fauna than North Africa and East Asia and gathered up a few thousand breeding pairs of species of Biblically "unclean" marsupials and reptiles and what not unique to that land brought them to the Levant where his boat was, then gathered them into the boat, sailed around for a month and a half, left them to survive somewhere near where they made land fall then somehow at a much later time some unnamed and unchronicled "men", gathered up at least a breeding pair of each species unique to each geographic area and returned it there by raft with little side trips to places like Komodo for the dragons, Tasmania for the devils and each Galapogos for the tortoises: than for the animals to have evolved separately in these places because of the pressures of each unique environment?

I feel like you are mocking me to expect me to accept that.

I am sorry if you thought you were being mocked. It is very difficult for me to even contemplate such absurdity without rolling on the floor and laughing. I don't mean to mock. But the inherent contradictions even of the Bible itself in these stories is uproariously funny when combined even with a grade school understanding of science.

So God created light on the Earth three days before he created the Sun? I am imaging Terry Gilliam's cartoon of God using a large articulating work lamp and saying "this won't do! they will notice the lamp stand" then whipping up the Sun and stars and putting the lamp under his desk.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 02:26 PM

Pete, by your reckoning, if Noah's sons didn't bring the animals back, his grandsons did, if not them then the next generation and with each generation the numbers get larger. Evolution is a much more elegant solution. Genetics and continental drift suggest that evolution is how the differentiation happened.

The process by which kangaroos and kiwi birds came to live where they do is not even hinted at in the Bible but their existence is all but certain proof that terrestrial fauna was not repopulated from a single nautical vessel in the Levant less than 6,000 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 04:41 PM

Strange fellow the oaf Cap'n Fraud....keeps logging me posts then he says I am in breach of rules; surely by his very existence as a self elected thread policeman he is in breach of the rules he so strenuously supports.
I will take him to task on his allegations of me breaking mudcat rules though.As he can quote his half baked ideas and semi digested crap with impunity, I should be able to quote my fact based opinion of this mealy mouthed waste of skin and hair?

Barnacle balls here is me challenge to you ; disprove any of my comments about you on this thread and I will leave never to return...hand on heart.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 12:49 AM

>>>
From: GUEST,concerened - PM
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 04:41 PM

Strange fellow the oaf Cap'n Fraud....keeps logging me posts then he says I am in breach of rules; surely by his very existence as a self elected thread policeman he is in breach of the rules he so strenuously supports.
I will take him to task on his allegations of me breaking mudcat rules though.As he can quote his half baked ideas and semi digested crap with impunity, I should be able to quote my fact based opinion of this mealy mouthed waste of skin and hair?

Barnacle balls here is me challenge to you ; disprove any of my comments about you on this thread and I will leave never to return...hand on heart. <<<<

blatant rancid rule breaking of the first order.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 01:14 AM

My work here is done.

Err. Welcome to Musketland Jerk. The view is delightful, the food excellent, the opportunity to rip up the rule book irresistible.

Best of all, you don't have to be embarrassed by rational people reading pete's absurd bullshit and saying "Oh! So that's what Christians are into."

Reality and perception. Not the best of bed fellows.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 05:21 AM

So don't wanna take up me challenge then? you pseudo nautical buffoon.

Yes, i was right about you all along; barnacle balls has no real balls when it come to honest play

Here he comes sidling and bridling shit eating grin firmly in place toadying and sneaking his way through life.

Yet when it comes to chance to prove us all wrong, what does this salt stayned sneak do?

Make notes about foul play...come on jerk!!! at least make pretense of defending yerself.. crayons could be on way else and I remain triumphant king of the trolls!!!! WOO!!! - HOOOO and other triumphant noises... having shown you up as the old barnacle bottomed bullshitter you undoubtedly are.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 09:37 AM

>>Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket - PM
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 01:14 AM
Err. Welcome to Musketland Jerk.<<

>>>Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened - PM
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 05:21 AM

So don't wanna take up me challenge then? you pseudo nautical buffoon.<<<

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 10:52 AM

Not sure of the point you were making in that last post? You come up with a derogatory term "Musketland" then quote it back at me?

How odd.....

There again.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 10:55 AM

Funny one Ian Mather

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 11:10 AM

"Burning Korans to piss off Muslims or diagnosing half the planet as having a "delusion" to sell a few more tickets to staged "arguments" on a book tour are simply different sides of the same coin."

It obviously has escaped your highly selective attention Jack, but the Q'ran burners were self identified Christian fundamentalists, nothing to do with the "book tour" about which you constantly piss and moan.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 12:49 PM

Hey Pete - check out the "Nessie Proof of Creation" thread & let us know what you think.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 01:07 PM

I don't mind if you disagree with me if you show some understanding of my point.

Here is a definition of
        
"be two sides of the same coin also be different/opposite sides of the same coin
if two things are two sides of the same coin, they are very closely related although they seem different Violent behaviour and deep insecurity are often two sides of the same coin. Higher living standards and an increase in the general level of dissatisfaction are opposite sides of the same coin. "


One is drumming up publicity by trying to stir up liberals in a reprehensible and dishonest way.

The other is drumming up publicity and book sales by falsely making a diagnosis and offending people of faith by implying that half the world is mentally ill.


Both are disrespectful. Both are dishonest. Both are amoral in their approach. Both are doing it for personal fame and gain. Two sides, same coin.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 01:21 PM

Delusion can be rational (bad information or poor understanding of information) or it can be irrational (faith in irrational concepts.).

Being offended by observation doesn't alter the legitimacy of the observation. The word faith is highly accurate, because you'd never believe in a God concept through sober reflection. According to fools, pointing this out is merely an attempt at personal fame. Delusion exhibits itself in many ways, but that is as obvious as it gets.

Even when you are not trying to insult people, you belittle the rational half of the planet, (your statistic.). You use the word liberal in a derogatory fashion, yet the dictators of the world aren't liberals. They know how to use religion as the tool it is though, and always have.

Now then, where else on these threads do we see liberal as an insult?

Oy worm! He's stealing your clothes!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 05:22 PM

"Yet the dictators of the world are not "liberals"......Ha Ha Ha,

What about the dynamic duo Mr Blair and Mr Bush, both leaders of the largest "liberal democracies" on the planet and arch terrorists and world dictators?
Mr Cameron, Mr Hague, and to a lesser extent Mr Obama were also in the frame before their parties and electorate revolted.

Before these criminals, the third world tinpot dictators pale into insignificance

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 06:32 PM

Musket sometimes it is easier to call you a name than to sort through the nonsense that you post.

What ever makes you think that saying that liberals being pissed of by a nutty fundy burning Korans is a slur against liberals?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 03:01 AM

Possibly the sheer arrogance of assuming you have to be put in some labelled box or other marked "liberal " before being offended by lunatics.

Putting people in boxes with labels. Now.. Where have I seem that before?

Oy Worm! See? I told you!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 06:58 AM

see jerk ,you keep burbling platitudes about "disrespect", "not being very friendly" ,"dishonest" "amoral" and "respect" which are strange words for a 1000 caret phony like you.

Respect is earned not demanded, but arrogant, ignorant head up ass sneaks like you wouldn't understand that.

How in the name of sanity dare a fraud like you talk about "dishonesty"?

What with all your nautical pretensions, which you still keep on with, despite being challenged by me to disprove otherwise.

Now we come to real gold plated pippin in the collection of self interested crap you spout..of accusing folk of being AMORAL!!!!!! how dare you you stuck up little prig.. the definition could have been written for you...you are a amoral, selfish person pursuing your own goals.

Try and come back with your shit eating excuses for that..if you are brave enough....which I doubt....oh, have a nice sneaking day..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 10:45 AM

>>see jerk <<

Rule breaker.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 12:43 PM

Look, it's like this.

Take concerened (sic) for instance. It is obvious that she has me weighed up, so why not you? Go with the flow and you will feel better for it.

You might feel more happy about addressing people's observations of where you are coming from rather than your somewhat tedious referrals to fictitious rules.

Militant atheism isn't a religion but religions usually start by someone enforcing arbitrary, often self serving rules. You seem to be getting further than the co Messiahs and associated gnome (honorary co Messiah Emeritus.). If that's your aim, I take my hat off to you.

Doubt I'll be praying at your altar though all the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 12:46 PM

your point is?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 01:34 PM

Jack, if you read the bible ,I think you might see that the animals were bought to Noah, he did not have to round them up........the generations I mentioned were not the genealogies and other biblical data, but of animal life, though I accept that the generations of men can be better estimated from the biblical data and other records.    The point is ,that there were several hundred yrs for animals to distribute globally....and I remind you that what you are challenging there, is evolutionary talk too!   The part that man played is only part of the overal picture of the movements........I would like to think that your misunderstanding is unintentional, or that I was not clear enough.          If you read your bible, or when I should say, you will know who it is that is described as light in whom there is no darkness at all.   Do you think that he is unable to provide a light source before the sun was created on day three?    And do you not think that the biblical writer/ compiler did not realise that light now comes from the sun. If anything, what you claim discredits genesis testifies to its genuineness.   I will try to be clearer, and maybe you might need to read more carefully too.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 02:48 PM

pete I've read it often enough and I've read analysis often enough.

The Bible just does not work as a science text. If you just assume that God "can" do all of these things you toss away the importance of describing what he did. Oh yeah, well God just DID it. Don't ask how!   

Genesis says that God divided the night from the day 3 days before he created the sun. In the Universe that exists today, what is day and night and how are they divided?

The account also says that he divided the day from the night twice, on the first day and then on the fourth. If every thing in the Bible is true and the unerring word of God. Which is it. the first day or the fourth?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 06:22 PM

1800??????

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerend
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 08:00 PM

1801?????????? see fraud ...others can play at your gingerwoosy game

Nice thoughtful post as usual sweetcheeks...I love seeing others leg this nautical gobshite up.....TEe Hee!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 03:28 AM

Bless you and your wobbly bits xxxx

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 03:35 AM

It's the fourth day Jack.

No, seriously. It is. Note I called you Jack not Jerk in order to demonstrate my sincerity in this theological matter.

You see, if pete can come up with definitive conclusions from the first book in the genre science fantasy, so can I. Don't get me started on books further along the evolutionary literature scale. Michael Moorcock? I've shit 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 02:37 PM

Jack....all you need for day and night is a revolving globe and a light source. This divided day from night.....sun created...divided day from night....both, no contradiction.       Newton and other creationists believed he done it ,but it certainly did not hamper their science!.........anymore problems with Noah and the animals?!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 02:56 PM

pete, I am not sure that I can tolerate your blasphemy. :-) You seem to be implying that God was such a poor planner and sloppy engineer that he had to create the same thing twice.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 03:27 PM

Pete, when Galileo managed to cobble together a telescope and directly examined some of the "heavenly bodies," what he SAW verified the theory of Copernicus, that the earth revolved around the sun, not the other way around. So the earth could NOT be the center of the universe as was the conventional teaching of the time.

The CHURCH hauled him before the Inquisition and made him say that his observations were in error, under threat of being burned at the stake if he didn't. Galileo, taking the discrete route, allowed as how he might have been in error, thus saving his life—while knowing that sooner or later, scientists to come would verify that he had been right.

But the Church sure put a crimp in Galileo's scientific studies.

Science neither affirms nor denies the existence of God. The problem is narrow minded literalists who can't see the bigger picture, and lack imagination.

God MIGHT be a whole lot more omniscient and omnipotent that most religious people imagine.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 02:10 AM

Interesting Don.

On the basis he might exist, his followers use the word omnipotent whilst demonstrating him as largely impotent.

If there is intelligent design in some way, our present situation, in my humble opinion, is the result of a process not a will.

The established religion idea doesn't get past first base. If you demand rather than earn credibility, people will dismiss you more than ever these days. Education and access to information is largely replacing superstition. People may feel the need for a comfort blanket and why not? But a blanket that doesn't have answers scrawled on it doesn't allow you to be a hoopy frood who knows where his towel is.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 11:15 AM

Blah!! blah!!! blah!!!blabitty blah!!!...the same old judgmental, priggish, right wing crap from the biggest asshole on Mudcat with the smallest mind..who would that be I hear you ask?

Why, none other than our resident sneak and all round self elected thread policeman, yes folks, old seaman staynes the nautical prig and tale bearer..

Check out the other threads, were, equipped with his ever ready shit eating grin and his trusty Mudcat rule book, he is trumpeting the alleged injustice of some people not following his rules!!!!

"You are allowed to express unpopular opinion. You are not allowed to be an argumentative, name calling jerk. " who gives you the right , phony?


It is you, barnacle balls, who are showing disrespect and ingratitude by ignoring a simple request by me to challenge my justifiable comments to you.


As I said if you can, I will leave this thread forever..but from your past record I guess I will have a long wait?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 11:21 AM

>>>Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened - PM
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 11:15 AM

Blah!! blah!!! blah!!!blabitty blah!!!...the same old judgmental, priggish, right wing crap from the biggest asshole on Mudcat with the smallest mind..who would that be I hear you ask?

Why, none other than our resident sneak and all round self elected thread policeman, yes folks, old seaman staynes the nautical prig and tale bearer..

Check out the other threads, were, equipped with his ever ready shit eating grin and his trusty Mudcat rule book, he is trumpeting the alleged injustice of some people not following his rules!!!!

"You are allowed to express unpopular opinion. You are not allowed to be an argumentative, name calling jerk. " who gives you the right , phony?<<<<

Max gives me the right. The forum gives me the right. You, on the other hand, are breaking the rules. To confirm this. Please read the posted terms of membership below.

Log In (Reset Cookie) - Log Out

Be aware that our forum is Free.

Anonymity and Guest Posting are permitted.

You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty, or either FOR or AGAINST that of-what-we-do-not-speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 01:44 PM

Jack, I think guest our "GUEST" concerned may be playing a much more subtle game than we realise.

Unfotunate that you appear to be the chosen catalyst in this game.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 03:09 PM

Rather insightful from someone who would call a bucket of lard subtle?

Unfortunate for Whacko Jacko but good for my co Messiah and associated gnome (Co Messiah Emeritus) who no longer need to buy crayons.

She has me weighed up though, don't you sweetpants? xxx

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 03:14 PM

Much too subtle for you Ian, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 03:46 PM

I don't care what either of them say about me. I just wish that they would respect this forum and its rules.


By the way, have you heard anything from the authorities where you live as a result of Ian Mather, respected health system bureaucrat, reporting this website to them?   

It seems like a story worth following. Your proclivity for imposing your own interpretations on health system data must be a top priority for the British thought police. I expect to see an episode of Sherlock exposing your sort to a stern talking to before too long.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 03:54 PM

I do my sweet XXXXXXXX, but back to jerk the confused mariner..he really is the bees py jams aint he.?

Is there no end to his buffoonery, sneaking and toad eating?

He is still using the forum for his own snooty, self centered agenda and trys to throw every one of the scent by picking on sweetpants and myself.

He still does not get it does he?

Everyone can see right through you Barnacle Balls,, you gotta realise that by your ridiculous, tedious ,quoting and re;quoting of the "Rules"

You only justifies every ones opinion of you as the biggest, phoniest ginger bum inhabited yegg on the whole forum. Do every one a massive favor by jumping on the good ship happiness and chilling out..or ship out and visit one of the countries of your past dubious maritime voyages and maybe find a personality?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 04:38 PM

>>>Everyone can see right through you Barnacle Balls,, you gotta realise that by your ridiculous, tedious ,quoting and re;quoting of the "Rules"<<<

you pick on yourself lady.

Why don't you click "membership" read the rules and register. No one will be unkind to you. Its in the rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 05:18 PM

If Ian has if fact reported the website to the authorities, then I suppose he is in serious trouble from admin.
But I don't think he is agenda driven enough to do something so utterly stupid. He seems to be very close to "Stonewall" the homosexual rights pressure group, and perhaps he has reported the site to them hoping they will take some sort of action.

Of course its quite obvious to any sensible person that I have said nothing that could be construed as "hatred of homosexuals", and as I have said many times, I do not feel any "hatred" towards them.
The health figures are in the public domain, and Sherlock would require to interview them, before directing his Meerschaum towards me. :0).

This site is the property of Max, he makes the decisions about how it is run, I will respect any decision he makes, I will abide by the rules of this site, I will not try to affect any decisions, or pressurise admin to take action against any other member, unless they are in flagrant breach of website rules....Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerend
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 07:32 AM

Who said I was a lady? Another of your home service, telegraph reading, ginger woosy words that are propagated by the torys ...never pretended to be, all you will ever get out of me is honesty, unlike you you priggish nautical fraud..BTW how is the new badge coming along?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 09:16 AM

For those who missed it: "concernered" is a persona of broadly do-gooder agenda who (most of the time) thinly disguises as a troll, in order to make mockery of threads like this one. She also has a regular Mudcat membership. When she first posted as "concernered", I thought the new persona was male, "Strange Case of Ms Hyde and Mr Hyde", so to speak. Later she preferred her presumably real gender, "Ms Hyde and Ms Hyde".

Tragically, her imitation of a troll is not only lacking skill, but pointless from the beginning, since there is nothing left to be ridiculed anyway. Some do the self-ridiculing on purpose, for their own fun if nobody else's. Those who do it unintentionally may well be warned, though with little chance of success. This includes the genuine person behind the "concernered" mask. (Hint: if my memory serves me, she writes above that she knows some of the protagonists here from folk clubs ...)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 09:29 AM

Grishka,

"concernered" is a persona of broadly do-gooder agenda who (most of the time) thinly disguises as a troll, in order to make mockery of threads like this one. "

That may be what she has said she is doing. But she is more making mockery of certain people than of threads "like this one" and she is unkind, impolite and argumentative when she does so. Please pardon me if you have read me saying this before. But if you click on "membership" you will find that such behavior violates the terms of conduct of this forum. If you would be so kind as to convince her to try to do whatever she is doing within the confines of behavior set by Max, I would appreciate it, lots of members would appreciate it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 12:41 PM

Jack, "concerened" believes to act in self-defence (and defence of "the disinherited"), like many others who present a poor image on Mudcat. I have no aspirations to the roles of police or judge; I just offer (modest) advice to those who wish to improve their image. The most important one is to ignore all trolling completely, totally, entirely, and without exception.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 01:04 PM

Worm.

I think you will find the propagation of this website in The UK belongs to the prevailing Telegraphy Act and recent legislation concerning incitement to hatred. Max has the right to publicise it. He doesn't own any publication material, merely the licence. Hence the moderation that Jerk twists to suit his agenda. In fact, you can see the disclaimer to his obligations at the foot of the page.

Any local council website has the referral form, also available on websites of groups such as stonewall and The Commission for Equality and Human Rights. Internet service providers have a duty to ensure reporting of breaches are dealt with.

It's very simple. In fact so simple I did it again just now.

I doubt the owner of this website will be required to pass the IP details to the state authorities to pass on, as ignorant rants from insignificant small people aren't exactly top of their list, nor the UK authorities they have sharing agreements with under UK and federal laws.

So.... Perverted, against natural law, compared to paedophiles, not wanting marriage etc etc. No, you don't seem to hate them at all. Fuck knows what hate looks like from your grim corner.......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 01:04 PM

"Ignore all trolling"....Problem is Grishka, quite a lot of people like to see trolls attacking people who do not share their views...its a sort of proxy war, in which some members never need to get their "hands dirty"
Its really the job of the mods to sort out serious "trolling" which could destroy this section of the forum.
Jack must be given credit for taking it upon himself to remind some guests about the rules which apply here.....he has been quite successful in his mission and the bad behaviour has almost ceased.

There appears to be a little confusion among the membership as to the actual rules. Some seem to think that certain subjects should not be discussed especially if views are expressed with which they disagree.

As far as I am aware, there is no subject or issue, which is verboten!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 01:28 PM

>>>From: GUEST,Musket - PM
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 01:04 PM

Worm.

I think you will find the propagation of this website in The UK belongs to the prevailing Telegraphy Act and recent legislation concerning incitement to hatred. Max has the right to publicise it. He doesn't own any publication material, merely the licence. Hence the moderation that Jerk twists to suit his agenda. In fact, you can see the disclaimer to his obligations at the foot of the page.<<<

The moderation that Ian Mather chooses to violate has again been violated by Ian Mather.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 04:11 PM

"The health figures are in the public domain,"

Disputable! And what about those nebulous "Other concerns"?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 04:36 PM

>>>>Of course its quite obvious to any sensible person that I have said nothing that could be construed as "hatred of homosexuals", <<<

More to the point, the case that you are inciting hatred is extremely dubious.

Whether you are incorrectly or correctly interpreting the health data, "male to male sexual contact is dangerous from a public health perspective" is hardly a war cry. More like incitement to boredom.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 05:16 PM

Ian, max makes the rules on this site, as far as I know there is no rule over ANY issue being discussed, except "that which must not be spoken about".
If Max or Joe PM me to say that I may not discuss Homosexual "marriage" legislation, or homosexual health rates, I will desist immediately. Until then you can keep creeping off to your friends in "Stonewall"
Just be careful who you talk to

If the big brother, thought police, world according to Ian Mather ever comes to pass, I hope I'm not still on it!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 09:38 PM

LGBT Youth Scotland, used to be called Stonewall Youth Project.
Mr Rennie was chief executive of this organisation

Some further reading

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 09:42 PM

Sorry, link does not work...fix it to morrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 12:26 AM

Do you know why they use the group Stonewall?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 05:05 AM

So a paedophile used a charity for his evil ends.

Err.. What is your point worm?

It wouldn't be making links would it?

Barlinnie Prison is full of Scottish people. Would you make a similar link to that statement?

I notice that Jack the Sailor highlighted the word Jerk when reading out the latest set of charges to me. Ok. I will consider stopping calling you Jerk if that helps.









Jackass.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 05:47 AM

You have signed off with yet another handle.
Have you not enough names already?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 05:57 AM

Boom! boom!

Or Bum Bum to keep the Keith A hole of Hertford quip running.

All the historians will agree on my name. For that though, you need consistency Keith.

Hard luck. If you want fame, may I suggest politics? A good opportunity for people with your views to grab a quick limelight before the papers get bored with you all.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 07:47 AM

"So a paedophile used a charity for his evil ends." (Ian Mather).

You forgot to add "so what?", but that's what you meant, isn't it Ian?

Christ!.....what kind of man are you?.

This is the chief executive of LGBT Youth Scotland were talking about, a male homosexual organising the biggest homosexual paedophile ring in history.

This guy was actually advising insecure youngsters on sexual orientation and organising homosexual adoption in Scotland while anally raping babies.
Not just one man but a dozen of his friends and acquaintances.

Go hang your head in shame, you make light of this disgrace yet take ME to task for pointing out homosexual health rates and ways to halt an epidemic of disease.

You have the gall to report this website to THIS organisation!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 08:05 AM

That should read "Scottish history".
The ring was international involving thousands of men....according to police report. Whether the ringleader was Scots, English or Australian, is immaterial in this context.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 08:33 AM

Ian Mather

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 11:44 AM

Ah! Grishka you have blown me cover..NOT,

Yes, it is true I know most of you lot from your posing round Folk clubs, but that is ok if that is your bag and what you do for amusement, despite the fact that you make yourselves sound and look like complete arses.!!!

I do take issue with alkenaton however, by supporting the arch sneak Jerk the sailyor...how can anyone defend or take seriously that nautical buffoon with his sneaking, brownosing and everlasting referral to the "rules".

The unmitigated gall of the "man", Calling people rude and snooty, were in effect he is one of the worst,

He should take note of the good book;"he who is without sin cast the first stone"....get it?... nitwit.?

I will say it again: disprove anything I have said about you barnacle balls, and I will up anchor and go..cant say further than that can I?...........fraud

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 11:58 AM

Guest "Conc"......I very rarely drink alchohol. :0)

Cheeky monkey!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 09:01 PM

For the benefit of Ian Mather

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 04:26 AM

When Akenaton says I support an organisation, it seems to be on the basis of knowing it exists. I also know what they set out to do. They support people who are gay in achieving the equality in society they have every legal right to. (Unless you wear a dog collar, then apparently you can feel sorry for them but just like for women, not allow them equality. Nobody said the law was perfect.)

Akenaton says in one breath that I support them and that someone who used to work for them happened to be a paedophile, so why am I supporting that organisation?

The logic behind that is rather distasteful, let alone disgusting. As the paedophile worked for them in their Scottish branch, I wonder if his logic that paedophilia and gay are linked, whether he feels paedophilia and Scottish are similarly linked?

As the moderators feel it best to call a spade an earth inverting horticultural implement, I shall refrain to comment too far about that rather extraordinary slur and perhaps ask Akenaton to help us understand what he is saying?

Perhaps he may also explain how knowing the existence leads to supporting? After all, he seems to know a hell of a lot more about them than I do...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 12:51 PM

don firth- who are you to say how God should have done things? and on what basis ?.   you don't believe the bible record, so your only authority is your own opinion, albeit with reference to the changeable ideas of evolutionism.
the galileo thing is not as simple as you maintain, I hear , and btw, he was a creationist!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 01:01 PM

>>>From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link - PM
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 12:51 PM

don firth- who are you to say how God should have done things? and on what basis ?.   you don't believe the bible record, so your only authority is your own opinion, albeit with reference to the changeable ideas of evolutionism.
the galileo thing is not as simple as you maintain, I hear , and btw, he was a creationist! <<<<

Will that be the five minute argument or the full half hour?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 07:15 AM

I'll go for the five seconds.

Galileo wouldn't question the aspects of creation if he were a creationist.

See? No childish name calling. No winding up people of limited capacity with an autistic fixation on a few lines on a website. No f'ing, no blinding.

Boring.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 08:45 AM

I don't get why acting like a playground bully is not boring. How old are you? (rhetorical, no need to answer.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 12:13 PM

Whose opinion do you want Don to have seven stars petist link or whatever your bloody daft name is..? Yours? jerks?

As far as I can see by all your previous posts you aint saying nothing special..just a lot of semi educated self opinionated guess work.

When will you and the other clowns on this site get the message..nobody knows who did or did what, who is wrong and who is right? Any right thinking person, such as muskett and I worked this out ages ago.

And for seaman staynes? well in my very humble opinion the opinion of a known fraud, brown nose, sneak and nautical imposter is not worth having.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 12:55 PM

Since this thread has reached the all name-calling all the time state, it appears to have run its course.