BS: Why I am gone

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 06:32 PM

There really is no point in trying to reason with you is there, Ake. For all that you go on about Musket and his "little band of warriors" repeating the same arguments you do exactly the same thing. Over and over again. When anyone brings up the human rights issue you either ignore it or state that your views somehow transcend the basic rights that we have to not have our bodies subjected to invasive procedures against our wills. There is no doubt in my mind that you are promoting the same kind of sick logic that resulted in 6 million humans being exterminated for 'the good of the nation'. It is beyond me how a so called humanitarian can fail to read the lessons of history but I suppose it should not surprise me too much. OK, have it your way. Let's start compulsory testing. Then let's have compulsory testing of children for genetic defects. Then let's start eliminating those who have AIDS and genetic defects. It is simply too awful to contemplate where it will end and, fortunately, there are enough people who will shout you down and stop this nonsense in it's tracks.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 06:16 PM

Hi Eliza, You may find this helpful in your understanding of the issue.

In a compelling plenary session, The Global MSM HIV Epidemic: Time to Act Exit Disclaimer, Chris Beyrer Exit Disclaimer, MD, MPH, of the Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg School of Public Health noted that MSM around the world have markedly higher HIV prevalence rates than the general population of reproductive-aged adults. This is true in every region of the world, including sub-Saharan Africa and the Caribbean, which has the highest HIV prevalence rate among MSM. (For more on the global epidemiology of HIV in MSM, see this study published by Dr. Beyrer and colleagues in The Lancet, 2012 Exit.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 05:50 PM

Well Ed....if the infections continue to rise at the present rates among MSM, something radical will need to be done, they have jumped by 20% in two years
What would you advise?

The health agencies are already pushing for "routine testing" in "designated areas", which is code for "areas which already contain large rates of infection"......and which demographic contains by far the greatest rates of infection?
Isn't it about time we had a bit of straight talking? If the epidemic is to be slowed, or even halted, honesty is the best policy.

The reason the folks in LA wanted re-designation of HIV/AIDS, was to make more funds and new treatments like compulsory testing and contact tracing made available. Their campaign was stopped by "equality activists"(surprise surprise)
The LAGLC realised that the present procedures were not being heeded and halting the spread of the disease require a degree of compulsion.
Nothing has changed in the last two years, other than the infection rates growing ever higher.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 05:05 PM

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/12/101222-new-human-species-dna-nature-science-evolution-fossil-finger/


Another species of human in China "red deer" but may not have its genes in humans today like the most recent discovery in Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: bobad
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 04:58 PM

Ake, people get AIDS from unsafe sex practices (among other unsafe behaviours) irregardless of their sexual orientation. Your crusade would be more effective if you aim it at these unsafe sex practices rather than the sexual orientation of the practitioners. Try, for instance, trumpeting the use of condoms rather than railing against homosexuality.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 04:38 PM

Don't forget we are all different despite the effort we make to bwe the same or part of a tribe.

Getting to know folks who have traits that belong to 2 or more species* other than homo sapiens is a fun and eye opening exploration. Yes some people are different but generally not enough to run and hide or scheme to fight them.

Nearly 20% of the population are social psychopaths but over 90% of them are perfectly safe individuals many of whom are CEO's and such.

Out of the 7 billion people each of whom have had unique experiences and opportunities waaaay different than yours, you may learn things that you would never see unless you first learn that a certain ability OF A CERTAIN PERON could change your understanding of the world. Its like never really seeing intense indigo blue without having a name ofr it. Its like being able to see something that has been in front of you for 20 years but finally seeing it is there.

*Neanderthal & Denisian {most recently discovered}

We all change each other. We all effect species diversity just by using a lawn mower. As bOBERT SAYS JUMP IN THE WATER'S FINE

The world is merely stranger and bigger and more intelligent than you may have previously thought.

TIA probably fed the trolls by feeding them emotion. Some people eat emotions and revel in making others upset and mad since they themselves are miserable upset and mad almost all the time. For trolls revenge and emotive response is pure gold. As for folks who label everyone trolls outside your comfort group, well your mistake is as introverted as TIA

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 02:51 PM

No offense Ake, but I suspect that hardly qualifies as the type or level of request from the gay community (that I refer to) to justify subjecting all gays to rounds of mandatory testing, as you seem to be promoting. Considering you seem to be a logical fellow in many post topics, I am surprised that you would stick to promoting this type of initiative and believe it would beseen as acceptable or could be managed and effective, even if it was considered so.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 02:47 PM

Taking a more global view, AIDS is far, far more prevalent among straight people in Africa, due to prostitution and aversion to condom use among heterosexuals. Whole families of orphaned children are now being brought up by their grandmothers. There have been literally millions of AIDS victims on the African continent, very few of whom were gay.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 02:19 PM

Ed...There already has been a call from the gay community, which I linked to a couple of years ago.
A group of homosexuals in Los Angeles wanted hiv/aids designated as a "disease of homosexuality" due to the high rates of infection among male homosexuals.
I will try to find the link for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 01:50 PM

Ake , outside of going against human rights in many countries,to me your suggestion will never happen Many countries have seen conditions where gays can "come out of the closet" without fear. IMO, such action would turn the clock back on the human rights of openly gay people. If it were acceptable,and workable there would be a call from the gay community, not from non-gays.

Ake, with your line of argument, since there is no call from the gay community to take your suggested action, does it mean that they do not care about thr plight of this disease on their members- that line of thinking does not seem reasonable, nor make common sense.

I recall that Japanese Canadians were forced to take loyalty tests and suffered during the second world war because of fear from a majority that this minority would impact loyity. Hopefully, we have progressed far beyond that type of mindset.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 12:53 PM

I think you do enjoy writing it Ian, you are perfectly capable of constructing a serious post.
You may have run out of ideas, but a rearguard literary action is surely not beyond you?
No I think you and your little band of warriors enjoy abuse for the sake of it....I think you believe it makes you look like men, but the opposite is the case as can be seen from most of the posts above, it makes you look like thugs.

You don't really care about the predicament facing homosexuals at all, do you.
You would rather see the infection rates continue to rise than have your "equality" agenda challenged.

I don't want to see compulsory testing in the MSM demographic, because of their "lifestyle"
I want to see compulsory testing and contact tracing to help defeat the epidemic.

If these infection rates applied to any demographic, I would be in favour of compulsory testing and contact tracing.
If these infection rates applied to heterosexuals, society would disintegrate.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 12:49 PM

Musket, we don't allow or disallow anything as "a valid" or "invalid" view. We let people post what they think, and then let the community express their agreement or disagreement - and the vast majority of Mudcatters speak very approvingly of gay people. Allowing minority opinions, even when they are disagreeable, gives an opportunity for discussion - and perhaps the "unenlightened" will become enlightened. We do put a stop to combative discussions when they get out of hand, but we have never gotten into the business of passing judgment on what is acceptable and unacceptable in individual posts.

You may have noticed that my religious denomination (Catholic) is a very small minority here, and I get a lot of crap about it. I admit that years ago I did delete a one-line post from an anonymous guest who called me a "Catholic child molester," but I think that's the only anti-Catholic post I've seen deleted here. We have deleted some anti-gay posts when they were truly hateful. There's a line between what is a person's opinion and what is just a hateful, bigoted attack. We try to err on the side of freedom of expression.

We do delete personal attacks, if the target of the attack finds them unacceptable. Let me know if that happens, and I'll pass your request on to the moderation team to deal with. I don't do that "remedial" moderation any more, but I'm still the person who handles other Mudcat business like public contact, music editing and archiving, and member registration.

We know that many people don't like the tone that discussion has taken at Mudcat, particularly in recent years - And I have to say I'm not always thrilled with it myself. Still, we still believe in erring on the side of freedom of expression. It would help if people who say they believe in civil discussion, were to refuse to join in the combat.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 10:25 AM

Jeri. The best way to stop me swearing and shouting would be to ensure I and others didn't have to do so.

If one gay person stopped using Mudcat.org due to being distressed at what the moderators allowed as a valid view that would be sad. You can't allow hate and then complain that we aren't all picking roses together. Sometimes you have to dig a hole for the manure to go if you wish to sustainably pick roses.

There is a huge difference between being odious and reacting to it. I react. Always have reacted and always shall react till they have no where to go and no credibility with even the most gullible of idiots.

Woody Guthrie had a notice on his guitar saying this machine kills fascists. I cannot begin to compare my feeble efforts with his but my guitar is now joined by my ipad. Bigotry will never get away with the last word whilst I have breath in my lungs or credit on my sim card.

Sorry to everybody who doesn't like reading it. I don't like writing it either.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Zen
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 10:13 AM

Like Noreen, I joined Mudcat about 14 years ago. Occasionally I'll look in, mainly to see what people I've met over the years are up to (if they are still here) but very rarely post these days.

My reasons for leaving are much the same as Noreen's. When I joined this forum it was full of interesting and informed discussion on a multitude of subjects and there was a spirit of support and good-natured banter.

Over the years a meaner, nastier atmosphere developed and bullies, trolls and baiters came to the fore. Even on serious music threads there was a good chance of being shouted down by socially-inept know-alls. Unfortunately, that has largely persisted and, rather than get involved with it, many of us have simply withdrawn from the forum. Unfortunately, because policies aimed at stopping abusive behaviour were not enforced (indeed I've personally seen a few appalling comments against others from moderators over the years), this atmosphere still persists and I've little reason to become involved again. That's a shame because I made many good friends here in the early days.

The points Noreen made were excellent. I've always believed I should treat people online as I would in real life. Unfortunately, some inadequates here hide behind the anonymity of their keyboards where their words in real life would get short shrift.

Well, off to retirement from the fray for a few more years.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 08:08 AM

the decision to make them compulsory or not is debatable.

No it isn't, Ake. ANY testing of ANY sort on feeling, thinking human beings HAS to be voluntary. Anything else is an infringement of human rights. You know the old poem, First they came... Well, this is exactly the same. Once you start compulsory testing on ANY group of people, no matter how well intentioned, it will end in who knows what. The trick is to never start the ball rolling.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 07:15 AM

I can only repeat - nay, stress - what Noreen has already said. In fact, I think I will. She speaks for me too, and speaks volumes. Underlining is mine:

> I do think before I post - (I have thought about this for years as this forum has changed beyond recognition) and generally decide not to bother posting as I don't enjoy being abused.

> I still do come here, for old times sake . . . but I don't feel safe here like I used to and I'm far more wary about posting anything at all personal.

I just withhold comment now, in places where I feel I actually have something to contribute to the discussion, to protect myself. And then I feel resentful because it's another form of gagging. Self-censorship is no less censorship, even if it's done out of self-defense.

It's another response to bullying, i.e. don't give it a chance to happen in the first place. And the only way is to just exclude yourself. But I'm annoyed that I feel I have to.

I also note with sorrow the departure of so many people whose company I valued, and whom I would/do welcome back if they decide to return. Add this to the loss of those whose departure was not by choice - as far too many Obit threads attest - and it leave quite an aching hole. Kendall made a good point about this in the parallel "Announcing one's return to Mudcat" discussion.

Once again, Noreen says it better than I could:

To absent friends *clink* :)

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 01:00 AM

Still waiting

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Noreen
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 12:49 AM

As in, let's always sweep unpleasantness under the carpet so as not to offend the oh so delicate views of the Nice People? Yep, go for it. What a great way of solving problems. Alternatively, do think before you post.

Steve Shaw, do you really believe that trying to shout each other down in abusive terms is "a great way of solving problems"?
Very funny.

I enjoy serious discussions- like we used to have on this forum- where posters respected the opinions of others and used reason and logic to put across a point of view.
I dislike intensely the childish abuse of those with opposing views and will absent myself from such.

I also dislike being patronised. Unlike some others here, I do think before I post- (I have thought about this for years as this forum has changed beyond recognition) and generally decide not to bother posting as I don't enjoy being abused.

Jeri posted a reasoned explanation of what she does here and how she views the situation, and you come back at her, telling her in foul language that she doesn't know what she's talking about and you know best.

Great.

Thank you for doing what you do, Jeri.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 10:13 PM

OK, so I lied.

Came back to tell you all to check out Roy Bookbinder's New Age Woman Blues--which you can learn about above the line--if you haven't already.    I had never heard about it til I saw the thread.

The YouTube version has him telling a great story--and the song is a sly gem with tasty licks.

That--among a huge number of other reasons--is a good reason not to be gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 09:30 PM

Wow, didn't take long for the usual suspects to start another religion flame war.

What I find fascinating is that while Mudcat believers by and large are more than willing to live and let live on the subject of religion, some of our illustrious atheists seem to salivate at any opportunity, real or imagined, to attack religion.

They do it so often, with such enthusiasm, that it makes you think that perhaps they protest too much.   It seems possible, based on their behavior, that some of the would-be foam-dripping atheists may actually be afraid of believing.

And what a world-shaking tragedy that would be. I can't imagine how they could live with themselves after such an unforgiveable apostasy.

By the way, regardless of what witty replies are devised to respond to this, and how the flame warriors beg me to join in again, this is in fact my last posting--on this thread.

So have fun, boys.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Janie
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 08:11 PM

Thank you, Jeri!

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 07:50 PM

"Good post Jeri" my arse. I hate to keep on repeating this, but there is no rule that says you have to join in with any folk music discussion, non-folk music discussion, unpleasantness, pleasantness, any other ness, any Wacko religion thread, anything at all.

And let's put this "they're not interested in folk music" crap to bed once and for all. Righto, I feel a bit guilty that I don't post more above the bloody line. That's because I mostly like Irish music and I only play the harmonica. Those things don't come up much. But that does not mean I don't read threads above the line. I do, every day, and I learn a fair bit. Just because I don't post there much (I do a bit as it happens) doesn't mean I'm some kind of hateful troll intent on destroying the website.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 07:27 PM

Yes, Ake (I trust calling you that is OK) better managed disease prevention-education-awareness among this group and others impacted by disease (regardless of the size of the group) does interest and concern me.

For example, people impacted by disease caused by poverty and hunger is huge all around the world. Take malaria, a huge problem which could be reduced much better with more resources from private donations and international focus.

So, from that perspective, I understand a concern regarding the health impact of unprotected sex with random partners, among the homosexual and heterosexuals community. Public concern for HIV has likely lessened in the past few years (compared to a few years ago). We all should be more vigilant and caring and encourage increased education, awareness and reasonable measures to limit its spread.

I am at low risk, as many, because I am married and don't fool around. I suspect a significant risk for spreading such stuff around is centered around those who are in a different situation.

Now, back to my question. Where are you coming from on this topic, and what is your goal and solution? Unlike some others (as it seems), I have not been previously been exposed to your perspective on this issue. I trust you are well meaning, and considerate and understanding to the homosexual community (as I am. However, I am cautious, as you have seemed to "stirred up" a few folks on this topic, that may be more aware of previous discussions than I am. As a side note, I have no interest in homophobic theories, and respect those in the homosexual community equally to those in any other community.

So, Ake, here is your chance to explain to me what is on your mind on the topic - to someone who currently has an open mind on your intent. I ask that you be clear on what is fueling your interest in the topic. Hopefully, others have misunderstood your intent and you can express it in a manner that is considerate of the concerns and sensitivities of other members.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 07:22 PM

That would still involve making someone else do something to make the world safe, and I'm pretty sure it would create more work than it would save. Try to come up with a solution that doesn't involve someone else assuming the role of thread police.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 06:57 PM

Good post jeri and you have made yourself clear.

I take pride in not abusing people and trying to put forward a reasoned argument backed by as many facts as I can find.
Unfortunately some subjects of discussion here seem to provoke abuse in others. Religion, Homosexuality, Abortion.....controversial subjects.

My advice is either ban the discussion of controversial subjects, or ban the abusers.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 06:44 PM

You guys decided to let Ake drive this bus?

Prompted by Ake's comment, but "you" is generic.

Some years ago, Max asked me if I wanted to be a "volunteer" here, at what was essentially a website for those who shared a common interest in folk. I would fix HTML and line breaks (it wasn't automatic then) and delete duplicate and blank posts. If people argued, they did so with an underlying repect and there were lines that never seemed to be crossed.

Now, there are threads exclusively for people to argue. Most of those people don't seem to care at all about folk music.

Max once said Mudcat was whatever the people here wanted it to be. Some of them want it to be a long series of bar brawls. People who don't want that can do nothing about it except complain. Because those who are engaged in the bar fights don't care. They don't care about bothering others or making the place seem poisoned. They don't care how stupid or petty they look. They don't care about "nice" and "respectful. They don't care about winning a fight, just the process of fighting. They care about being able to do what THEY want, whenever and wherever they want to do it.

There are too many of them, and they're too intent on keeping the nastiness going, and I can't win. I've deleted posts attacking one person, only to have that person fire off three retaliatory messages in the minutes it took to delete the attack that prompted it all. Then they accused me of making them look stupid. I didn't do that. There are people who, if they show up, their usual adversaries can be predicted to join soon, and selfishly and make it impossible for anyone else to contribute. There are some who intentionally troll, but mostly, there are is a ready-made group of... I know it's not the best term, but it's as disgusting as I can manage to get.. troll-fuckers: a bunch of jerks who come in looking to be provoked and take advantage of any offense. Some are in the US and some are British. I don't see other countries getting involved routinely.

I know this is not what Max wants for his site, but I'm one person, and I can only do what I can do. If someone complains about personal abuse because they're engaging in a pub brawl and get a bloody nose, STAY OUT OF THE FUCKING FIGHTS. If it happens in a music discussion, or if someone gets blind-sided, I'll try to stop it. If you want adult supervision to make the bad kids behave, you probably shouldn't be on the internet. That's not why I'm here. I don't enjoy reading unpleasantness. I don't choose to because it makes me sick, and I'm here for what I love, not what I hate.

No one can control you but you.
You are the ONLY person you can control.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 06:44 PM

DtN.....Cancer is not an infectious disease.
Of course screening and testing for cancer is a very good idea, but as it is non infectious the decision to make them compulsory or not is debatable.
As we continue to live longer, one in three of us will develop cancer of some sort, but it appears to be largely age related.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 06:35 PM

Ed....Do you not agree that this is an extremely serious matter?

I would never have mentioned it on this thread had I not been goaded into doing so by other posters.
How can anyone be "anti homosexual"? homosexuality is a fact. You are not being reasonable.
How can anyone hope to end homosexuality? You are not being reasonable!
I am suggesting a procedure which has possibilities of cutting the horrific infection rates amongst male homosexuals.
"Gay marriage" is not a solution, it is a smokescreen.

I don't feel that I am "obsessing" on this issue, I am certain that this issue is being ignored by many people here and in the wider population, on ideological grounds; and that is an absolute disgrace.

Do these figures really not affect you at all? Did you even read them?

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 06:21 PM

Can we not reserve a separate 'room' here for those who just want to abuse each other ad nauseam, and keep their vituperation away from the rest of us nice people?

As in, let's always sweep unpleasantness under the carpet so as not to offend the oh so delicate views of the Nice People? Yep, go for it. What a great way of solving problems. Alternatively, do think before you post.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 06:13 PM

Well I suspect the health impact on the NA indians, and African Americans is not a small matter to these people, Ake?

If sexual intercourse is the means of infection, and they have sex with other (seting asided the bisexual factor), how does it impact others- as they seem to know and accept the risks? What makes you sure that the homosexual community is any less likely to stay faithful to a partner than others in society, for example the younger single population.

I am not sure where you are going with this, beyond the hint of anti homosexual perspective. Why do you seem so " stuck" on this issue? Are you proposing a solution? Are you on a drive to end homosexuality (good luck with that). Do you propose greater health education with this group? Are you proposing the benefits of gay mariage and fewer partners? Not reading many of your other posts on this, I do not understand your preoccupation with this issue? I give you the benefit of the doubt (lacking information) that it is not coming from prejudice. Are you merely ringing alarm, in concern for this segment?

In a nutshell, what's your point with obsessing with this matter?









So, what is this all about?

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 06:07 PM

1 in 10 women have breast cancer. Almost 100% of new cases of breast cancer are amongst women. This is an epidemic and for this reason I suggest that all women are subjected to compulsory screening for breast cancer every 3 years. Us men can just sit back and relax as usual. Or start rounding up homosexuals I suppose...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 06:03 PM

" But one can, I think, express disapproval and even anger in a civilised and mature way. In fact, such a restrained response may in the end have more effect than outright ranting and insults."

Absolutely correct, Eliza. In fact, this may be one of the best things about Mudcat BS.


" All I was trying to say (perhaps not very clearly) is that one isn't condemned to read posts which upset and enrage if one would rather not. There are some funny and interesting threads to go to instead."

Right! I think one can deal with outbursts and insults with rationality and clarity. I don't expect that people should muzzle their passions but as you say, a restrained response
elevates the level of conversation about controversial topics.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Noreen
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 05:08 PM

Exactly what I was thinking Jeri.

That and *yawn*.... in a bar I'd have walked away from this 'conversation' a long time ago.

Can we not reserve a separate 'room' here for those who just want to abuse each other ad nauseam, and keep their vituperation away from the rest of us nice people?

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 04:28 PM

The main problem is personal abuse Jeri.

Why was the rule on personal abuse abandoned? I can only think of perhaps three people who do it in a serious and regular basis.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 04:26 PM

Ake, note the stats from below - what do you propose be done to rectify this major health issue among minorties?

Note I am not suggesting that NA Indians (and possibly the African Americans) should be "rounded up" and put on reservations, and kept away from the healthier whites (because, we did that, it did not work:)

""Minority Health
HIV and Sexually Transmitted Diseases - Newly diagnosed cases of HIV.
The HIV rate for American Indians is nearly 80 percent higher than
the rate for whites, but much lower than the rate for African Americans.
The same is true for the overall rate of certain sexually transmitted diseases among American Indians, whites, and African Americans (early syphilis,gonorrhea, and chlamydia)"'

Source:
NA Indians Health
North Carolina
PDF

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 03:28 PM

It's sort of amusing (and explanatory) that yet another thread has turned into a general-purpose bitch session. The MAIN problem is that some people are NOT gone-- or at least that they can't put the good of the community above their person urges.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 12:28 PM

I am grateful to Joe, Max and Dick for supplying a forum for expressing views and in spite of the brickbats being thrown, offering a chance to clarify ideas which would be difficult to state in other blogs and venues. I see Mudcat as a champion of genuine democracy where citizens can have their say. So often on the media,
you get pundits yelling at each other without any listening skills whatever and those who shout the loudest get heard. Or those who can buy "free speech" as the Supreme Court has ruled, can drown out the voices of dissent.

Here, you can examine statements made by anyone and offer an alternative point of view. That's why I keep coming back. I expect the brickbats but here there is an opportunity to delve into the underlying motivations of those who throw them and address them rationally.

I am one who thinks that there is no separation between one's musical expression and political or philosophical ideas. In this I concur with Pete Seeger, Steve Earle,
Woody Guthrie, Beethoven, Chopin, Louis Armstrong and other leading influential musicians.

I deplore the censorship of "Pussy Riot" in Russia by Putin although I might question their ideas. They don't deserve what Putin gave them the same way Victor Jara didn't deserve the torture he received at the hands of the Chilean government eventually overtaken by Noriega.

Mudcat offers a forum which is invaluable and connects humanitarian ideals
to music.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 08:52 AM

As I've never actually regarded atheism as a point of view as such (seeing as we are no more than the invention of deluded people), I never cease to be amused that anyone can think you can have such a thing as an "atheist bigot". Just thought I'd mention it. Of course, atheists can be bigoted about stuff aside from religion. I've heard, for example, that Yorkshire and environs contain several "Sheffield Wednesday fans" who haven't been to Mass for positively years!

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 08:37 AM

Anyone know where this quote came from - possibly a movie?


""Never miss a good opportunity to shut up""

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 08:23 AM

I would like to see what Musket sees as a hate crime.
I have followed Akeneaton over the years and never seen any such.
It would be out of character.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 07:57 AM

Sorry you have left us, TIA.

But it's definitely understandable. Only thing that is not understandable is not being interested in the discussions above the line.   I find you can learn a lot above the line, and only rarely do the flame war fans intrude----usually those who are unwilling to live and let live on the subject of religion.

However there are virtually always worthwhile posts above the line. Just finding out about concert opportunities is worth a lot--I just found out we may get a chance to see Archie Fisher if we play our cards right.

Why should anybody waste time below the line--unless he or she really has an appetite for combat---or a bit of time to kill?    Nothing is ever resolved below the line

As you note, Songwrongheader and a few others can be counted on to start threads which have no point other than stirring the pot.    But, as in all threads, nobody has to respond.

If somebody favors you with gutter language, you can ask whether they also speak English--and let it go at that.

You will be sorely missed--one the few voices of reason below the line.


To be continued.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 06:04 AM

Fair do's Backwoodsman. But I am not on a crusade to stifle him. The genie is out of the bottle in his case. Making it perfectly clear that such exhibition of personality disorder will be rigorously challenged may just either shut him up in future or dissuade others who Google key words that interest them and find mudcat.org. We had it with a UK fascist party the other year.

It would be nice if a gay person could use Mudcat.org and participate without having to read things that any decent person in their position would find distressing. Hence my reporting it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 04:43 AM

I do see your point Richard, that we should be vigilant and oppose all the 'isms' that oppress and hurt. And perhaps my stance is a bit lily-livered. I find strident confrontation rather difficult though. But one can, I think, express disapproval and even anger in a civilised and mature way. In fact, such a restrained response may in the end have more effect than outright ranting and insults. All I was trying to say (perhaps not very clearly) is that one isn't condemned to read posts which upset and enrage if one would rather not. There are some funny and interesting threads to go to instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 04:06 AM

And now I'm gone (but only from this thread)!   :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 04:02 AM

And, of course, it's all OK while you're the one playing Big Brother and defining what may, and may not, be spoken of, but remember that fashions change and, one day, it may be your own opinions that become taboo, and Big Brother may have his secret ears and eyes on you.

By the way, I use the word "You" above in the impersonal sense of "One" - not you personally.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 03:53 AM

You've proved exactly the point I was trying, perhaps unsuccessfully, to make - that by allowing others to air their views, you allow them the opportunity to condemn themselves by their own words. If you simply stifle them, you don't change anything - they still hold their, perhaps odious, views and are neither deflected from their purpose nor persuaded of their error (in fact, it may very we'll serve to reinforce their opinions by virtue of giving them a sense that they are somehow the victim).

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 01:58 AM

In exactly the same way as one man's 'terrorist' is another man's 'freedom-fighter', it could be argued that one man's 'bigot' is another man's 'realist'. There are always two sides to a debate, and both should be able to be freely aired.

Stifling inconvenient opinions is the tactic of the extremist, and doesn't in any way win an argument. You don't defeat an opponent in debate by insulting him, screaming '"Bigot" and refusing to allow him to speak. You do it by allowing him to make his argument, however unacceptable you might find it, and then proposing a counter-argument which is more compelling and against which he has no plausible response.

Those who seek to silence others on this forum simply display either the paucity of their own arguments, or their inability to make those arguments convincingly, or both.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,Musket living the dream
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 01:26 AM

Make that evens on the pint you owe me on another thread mate.

Grishka. Your penultimate post puts confronting bigotry on the same level as spouting it then your last post appears to say such people don't come across as civilised.

In which case say so. As it is, a conspiracy of silence seems to be louder than words.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 07:30 PM

Ian sounds like an exceptionally good person to me. OK, he "supports" Sheffield Wednesday, but even that puts me in a weak position after tonight's completely unjust "defeat" of Liverpool by the arch-enemy. However.

Know summat, achytony? Ian is a good bloke because he "does" humanity in a way that someone like you can never recognise. Your brain is sullied by your perverted attitude to gay people, who are human beings just like you, Ian and me. Yeah, they're just like you. Identical, in fact. Hope you feel good about that. You are outdated, outmoded, outdone and out of it. You haven't a bloody clue about what makes people who are ever so slightly different from you (in your opinion only) tick. I can conclude that you probably don't even know what makes you tick. The really worrying thing for you should be that your obsession with gay people marks you out as a closet something. Can't quite put my finger on what that something might be and wouldn't really want to. There must be something about yourself that you haven't told us that makes you think like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 03:19 PM

And BTW, I am not moaning about manners, I gave practical tips to all interested Mudcatters about how to react to unpleasant messages. It is not my concern to find out who is the worst of all, and definitely not to suggest criteria for censorship. The reason why I discuss with Musket is to refute his idea that someone who gratuitously abuses the deserving can appear as a civilized person.