I'm researching a murder

Subject: RE: I'm researching a murder
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 11:34 PM

' No it wasn't; the song was to remind us of our debt to them and the courage they displayed - that's the way I prefer them to be remembered, with gratitude and admiration, thanks all the same.'


correct! your opinion....not indisputable fact,

Subject: RE: I'm researching a murder
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 03:25 AM

"correct! your opinion....not indisputable fact,"
It is pretty well established that it was common practice for 'events', political and social, to be recorded in song.
We've been digging up information on local songs since we moved to Ireland fifteen years ago, and have been recording such songs for at least thirty years..
These songs, as far as we've bee able to establish, were made, invariably by people who seldom put their name to them, and they became part of local history - many of them all-but disappeared when the particular events faded from local memory.
They included political events, emigrations, weddings, murders, accidents..... there's even one about a respected priest moving on to the next parish..... they were part of folk creation.
Quite often the same event was commemorated by several songs - locally there were four songs made about The Rineen Ambush (a Black-and-Tan convoy ambushed a few miles from here), the same number about The West Clare Railway, at least a half-dozen about the sinking of a ship off the coast in 1911, when local fishermen rescued the crew in curraghs.
The closest to 'Barry' were two songs entitled 'Mac and Shanahan' describing the arrest, torture and murder of two young men suspected of political involvement by Black and Tans.
Songs like these became part of the struggle for independence, and they also served as an expression of the local fights for independence - they are part of social history.   
Songs like Kevin Barry came about at a time of intense national struggle and they became part of that struggle.
They sometime took 'lament' form, as here, but they were also triumphant, angry, funny.... every emotion that is associated with the political and social life of the times they were made.   
They were sometimes produced in songbooks and were sung at political rallys and demonstrations, others just survived in the memories of those who were around at the time - there are hundreds of them.
The broadside trade thrived on gathering up some of these songs and selling them; in some cases they were deliberately made and printed to deliver a specific message.
The most well-known case of this was 'Patrick Sheehan (aka The Glens of Aherlow) - family evicted by landlord, parents starve to death at the roadside, son goes into the workhouse and then joins the British army and is blinded at Sebastopol, his disablement pension expires and he eventually ends up begging on the Dublin streets.
The song was based on an actual event and was written by well-known Irish writer, Charles Kickham, who actually intended it to be used as a disincentive to recruitment, but it ended up being instrumental in changing Irish law on service pensions.
I would be interested to learn if you actually know anything about these songs - there's tons of information about them, I would highly recommend Georges Zimmermann's Songs of Irish Rebellion.
Your failure to respond to one single point I have made about the political situation in Ireland pertaining at the time these songs were made suggests that you are drawing your conclusions from your own political leanings, but I would be happy to be proved wrong on this and add your information to our own researches.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: I'm researching a murder
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 05:54 AM

Stim writes

It seems more like a bunch of people decided to solve a problem the wrong way because no one ever wanted to stand up and solve it the right way.

If Wiki is accurate, people had made many attempts to solve the problem the right way. This does not make the wrong one any righter, but creates the kind of tragic dilemma for which narrative art forms are suited. Of course, a narrator must refrain from too clear a moral judgment about the characters, let alone about the real persons. We all agree that songs must not be confused with witness accounts for the police or for future historians.

Subject: RE: I'm researching a murder
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 06:41 AM

don't need to research songs. my family were involved in the IRA right up to the 1930's. Further than that is nobody's business.

Subject: RE: I'm researching a murder
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 07:43 AM

Thanks for your help!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: I'm researching a murder
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 08:50 AM

Oh Jim -try to understand - legends, songs, ballads, heroes - they aren't the whole world.

alongside that is life...have a read of Arms and the Man.

George Bernard Shaw explains the idea so much more wittily and eloquently than I can.

Subject: RE: I'm researching a murder
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 09:15 AM

Sorry - didn't understand a bit of that gibberish Al - I thought we wre iscussing songmakilne and its role in society.
By the way, Arms and the Man is a play - far more satisfying to watch than to read
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: I'm researching a murder
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 11:20 AM

okay -you don't understand.

please note thatI have not abused your point of view as gibberish. Shaw is one of the very few dramatists that never worked as an actor he was a drama critic. when he is staged the speeches are frequently cut to give a bit more snap to the production.

better reading than acting. a bit like Wilde. witty words...but a a few too many of them to keep the action moving.

god alone knows what you feel your truculence adds to our exchanges.

Subject: RE: I'm researching a murder
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 02:52 AM

My point, Grishka, was that law enforcement, justice authorities, and other civil officials failed to do what they were supposed to do, over a long period of time, which led to the unfortunate result. Incidentally, though you can generally get the elements of a story from the Wiki, you will often get a larger, and sometimes very different picture if you look at the source material.

Subject: RE: I'm researching a murder
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 03:10 AM

Sorry Al
Not the slightest bit interested in your opinions on drama - I'm well aware of Shaw's works and I find myself, once again, in total disagreement in your opinions.
I have seen most of Shaw's plays and can't think of one of them that makes better reading than acting - including his lesser performed ones.
That it is not what we were discussing here
I was talking about the part songs on historical incidents played in passing on information on those events.
I was not taking a political stance on them, as you appear to be, just pointing out why I believe they were made and why they are important - too important to be dismissed because of our own contemporary agendas.
That includes the making of new songs on earlier themes - which is what this is about.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: I'm researching a murder
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 04:53 AM

Stim, I still do not quite understand what you mean. I thought you were saying (02 Nov 13 - 08:32 PM) that there was no tragic dilemma involved that would lend itself to a song, and I expressed my disagreement based on the superficial information from the Wiki. You now seem to agree with me. It is Ben who wants to research further details, not I.

Subject: RE: I'm researching a murder
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 06:34 AM

No we were discussing Bob's intention to write a murder ballad - something which I know about, I mentioned that the fact that to my knowledge some of Kevin Barry's family didn't think being tortured and hanged by the British wasn't a brilliant carrer choice, and they got upset every time they heard that bloody song.

You ascended the high horse as per....

Subject: RE: I'm researching a murder
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 08:36 AM

Bob, not Ben, sorry. Stim (02 Nov 13 - 08:32 PM) wrote "In Bob's case", and that was what I responded to.

Since an artistic narrative can never be identical to a forensic testimony, writers are entitled to invent versions that fit their artistic messages. Shakespeare is a model - though nowadays it is often preferable to rename the characters.

We can either discuss history, or an artistic adaptation, or the fact that they coincide less than claimed.

Subject: RE: I'm researching a murder
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 03:02 PM

artistic narrative is a poetic presentation. documentary truth is something else.

once you take that aboard. the facts (or your selection of them) are a bit like a kaleidoscope - give them a shake and the pattern you present can be comic, or it may be tragic, pathos inducing.

it sort of depends on your personality - whether you want to make people laugh, cry, be stirred to action....tears of compassion, anger.

I tend to think your personality is what is actually making the statement - rather than the documentary facts,

a good example of this - there are political decisions the results of which make you weep - but the usual ploy is to take the piss.

Subject: RE: I'm researching a murder
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 12:41 AM

Grishka--my point was that I didn't see any "poetry" in what actually happened. It may be true that what actually happens never has any poetry to it(making my observation a fairly safe one;-)).

Whether or not that is exactly true, You and Big Al are both perfectly right when you say documentary truth lacks the elegance of a well told tale. And of course, the personality and tastes of the story teller shape the story.

It was once the fashion for poets to retell the same stories--the Arthurian Legends being a prime example, which gives evidence to this idea--my favorite, the story of Percival and the quest for the Grail , changes quite a lot in tone, detail, and intent, depending on the author. Even the Grail gets changed.