BBC Folk Awards 2014

Subject: BBC Folk Awards
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 06:36 PM

Can't believe I'm really the first to start this thread, but here goes.

Let's get the gripes out of the way first. Same old faces....

Most embarrassing moment...Greg Dykes. Why don't they get somebody who knows a smattering about folk to read their script first so they don't spout so much shite?

Apart from that I quite enjoyed most of it.

I think it's getting perilously close to us needing another short snappy word to describe the traditional stuff. There was a sizable percentage that didn't come anywhere near even the widest meaning of 'folk' though to be fair they keep tagging on words like 'roots' and 'acoustic'. Perhaps it would be more accurate if they just called it 'music'.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 07:10 PM

Never mind. The lads from Port Isaac who we know so well down at St Kew were performing again at last. Tears streamin' down me grizzled old fizzog, they were. Proper bloody folk music!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 08:20 PM

I thought the awards richly represented the new interpretations of traditional song developed in part by the Full English ( by which I mean the full team as well As the artistes- a delight to see that the beautiful melodies so long submerged are coming back to the surface again.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 08:45 PM

approx 1.20 am - I just chanced upon the tail end of the show on BBC red button.

Oh dear, that really was crap.

Sincere, well meant, highly respectful - yes, most definitely;

but a pitiful embarrassment to watch on a national tv channel.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 09:22 PM

the thing is, if a heat seeking missile took that lot out - English folk would still be pretty much as is, and they enjoy it - bless 'em!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: LesB
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 02:58 AM

So far only watched the 1st half (recorded), Far from same old faces the 1st 2 categories, Best Duo & Best Trad track, I had hardly heard of any of em!
I'll watch the rest when I get time.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Johnny J
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 03:44 AM

I'm delighted for Bella Hardy.

Unfortunately, her profile in Scotland isn't as high as should be even although she lives up here.

The clubs and festivals up here seem to prefer all those "feisty wimmen" type voices rather than something which is pure and sweet(but still strong).

Emily Smith is a notable exception, of course, and so is Julie Fowlis but she is mainly a Gaelic singer. There are one or two others but they are few and far between!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 04:15 AM

I've never watched it or paid any attention to it, and I've always thought the concept of "awards" for branches of popular (or even unpopular) music is nonsense. When I see the variety of talented people who play at sessions and singarounds I attend even just locally, the concept is meaningless.

It's just showbiz, folks, if you like that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 04:23 AM

Absolutely spot-on, Will.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 04:52 AM

That neither the interviewer (Simon May?) nor Martin Carthy pointed out that the song Elizabeth Cotten sang was not "Freight Train", since that was the song they were talking about, was rather surprising.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: doc.tom
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 05:22 AM

John from Kemsing - OK, now you've lost me completely! Were you listening rather than watching? I understand the interval programme was different on Radio to TV. We watched and saw no interview or any mention of Elizabeth Cotton.

I thought it was slightly more folk-like than last year - but still a long way from home. Definitiely some very right bits though.

But Will's right - that was show business. Take it or leave it.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 06:10 AM

Simon Mayo did his show (1700-1900) from the hall as a 'pre-awards' spot. Not actualy part of the awards themselves. I didn't hear it but I suspect that is what John's comment refers to. But I have been wrong before, occasionally :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: johncharles
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 06:31 AM

This is "The Folk Industry". It will pass.
john

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 07:09 AM

Well I don't mind seeing up and coming talent, showbiz points and all that notwithstanding (and I do agree with them), but we still seem to be fixated somewhat on spotty kids who equate playing as fast as they can with playing well. A good few people up there a bit past their sell-by dates too. Well done Bella Hardy, and I also thought the young woman singing at the piano (I can't remember her name, but I will) will be someone we'll see more of. I can't be doing with "supergroups" at all but isn't Nancy Kerr wonderful! Come on, folks. Things are looking up. Fisherman's Friends are singing again and there was no Donovan or Don McLean!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Gail
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 08:13 AM

I was pleasantly surprised by Tony Christie's apparent sincerity. As a pop-singer merely presenting an award, he came across as more genuinely interested than some previous 'lifetime achievement' winners have done!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 08:18 AM

@John from Kemsing: Yes, I noticed the same thing. I'm not sure they had any input into the mechanics of the track getting played, and they might not have actually heard which track was played. But if they did, i think it was just politeness on the Carthys' part.

I think everyone's being a bit curmudgeonly about the folk awards. I have no interest in 99% of the acts featured, but I found myself quite enjoying watching it regardless. There's very little on the telly I ever really want to watch anyway. I rather liked the fact that it had the vibe of being the Professional Folk Musician's equivalent of the Office Christmas Party.

Can you honestly say that if you, as a performing musician, were nominated for an award, you wouldn't go along? For the free booze, if nothing else?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 08:25 AM

Can you honestly say that if you, as a performing musician, were nominated for an award, you wouldn't go along? For the free booze, if nothing else?

I suppose it's a bit too easy and glib to say "No" to that question but, as far as I can tell, "No".

I feel the same way about the honours system - and always have done - because the principle objection is the same in both cases: there are hundreds of people out there who do good works for good causes, and a chosen handful get nominated for an MBE or an award or whatever. Why? By chance and fortune, but not necessarily by merit that is so much greater than that of many other, unknown people.

And don't get me started on civil servants who automatically get a:

1. CMG - Call Me God
2. KCMG - Kindly Call Me God
3. GCMG - God Calls Me God

Bah! Humbug!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 08:27 AM

Someone on the trailer in the weeks leading up to it made a good point. Female voice, don't know who sorry, saying that as folk performers they performed in pubs and clubs all over the country and this was their 'special' night out. I appreciate all the other points being made but for the hundreds of people there it was indeed a special night. I would not begrudge them that and, even if I did, I would just not watch or listen.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Snuffy
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 08:31 AM

I think it's getting perilously close to us needing another short snappy word to describe the traditional stuff. There was a sizable percentage that didn't come anywhere near even the widest meaning of 'folk' though to be fair they keep tagging on words like 'roots' and 'acoustic'. Perhaps it would be more accurate if they just called it 'music'.

I think they're moving towards calling it FARB music: during the programme I heard at least once the phrase, "Folk, Acoustic and Roots-Based music"

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 08:49 AM

or.. perhaps...

"Folk, Acoustic and Roots Traditions"...????

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 08:54 AM

If they labelled it ROOts-BAsed RhythmnBlues they'd have a great acronym.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Acorn4
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 08:56 AM

or even "Wasting Everyone's Time with Folk Acoustic and Roots Traditions?"

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 09:02 AM

the young woman singing at the piano (I can't remember her name, but I will)...

...was Hattie Briggs.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Gibsonboy
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 09:03 AM

For me the whole point of Folk based music is that its is reactionary, challenges authority, exists outside music industry hype. Giving awards cuts across all of that and makes it establishment friendly. Catch 22 if ever there was one.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 09:06 AM

Did nothing for me but if it prompts one person to go to a folk club for the first time then its all worth it.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 09:08 AM

Quite, Peter!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 09:13 AM

Enjoyed it enormously. Nice to see so much young talent about too. Some well deserved awards. Wish I could have recorded it.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 09:16 AM

But why cant they put it on tv?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Tim Hague
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 09:25 AM

Hear Hear Silas.

I really enjoyed it, but knowing Mudcat I'm not surprised at some of the comments on here.
The joy on the youngsters faces made it all worth while. There are some stars of the future there.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 09:25 AM

Isn't it still on the red button? I seem to remember that you could get it for days afterwards last year.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Mark Stevens
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 09:39 AM

What is the 'red button' ?
The local Radio media seems to be saturated with last night's BRIT Awards !! :-(

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 09:42 AM

Red button was broadcasting the full show on a loop until about 6.00 am this morning.
Next time it will be shown on Red button won't be until some time around Tuesday,
but only edited highlights.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 09:54 AM

What was that Young Folk Award nominee bluegrass band ' Gentlemen Of Few ' thing all about ? a bluegrass band based on a keyboard and a drum kit ? I don't think so.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,MATT Milton
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 09:57 AM

"By chance and fortune, but not necessarily by merit that is so much greater than that of many other, unknown people."

Well you could say the same thing about getting played on the radio, or scoring a place on the Cambridge Folk Festival bill, or being on Jools Holland or even simply having an album out. There'll always be better, more talented, worthier people who aren't on the radio, who aren't playing big festivals, who don't have an album out. That's not a reason for boycotting those events, or foregoing those activities.

Yes, there will always be people who are unsung talents that turn up and do something spellbindingly good at their local folk club to an appreciative small crowd. But it's not "chance and fortune" that separates them from famous names: it's determination and focus and hard work and, above all, the self-conscious decision to be a professional musician, to actually do that with your working life. I have a lot of respect for people that make that commitment, even if I generally don't like their music much. I think it's slightly self-indulgent and too easy to think to oneself that it's a few lucky breaks separating a talented amateur musician and a famous professional one. (I've been guilty of that false consolatory sop myself on occasion!)

Personally, I doubt many of the folk awards recipients genuinely think their award is an Official Seal That They Are Definitely Better Than Everyone Else. They are just grateful that more people are getting to hear their music. Oh, and that their mum can maybe catch a glimpse of them on TV.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 10:18 AM

Well you could say the same thing about getting played on the radio, or scoring a place on the Cambridge Folk Festival bill, or being on Jools Holland or even simply having an album out.

No - I don't agree with those analogies. Sorry - we'll have to beg to differ on that.

As far as being a professional, with commitment and "determination and focus and hard work", goes - well, that's true of all jobs and professions. It takes all of those things to be good in anything, but to single out a few for an award seems daft.

I've spent a large part of my adult life playing music - much of it for real money - and for most of those nearly 50 playing years (apart from the odd shite gig here and there), I've thought to myself: "Here I am, doing what I love, to people who mostly like what I do - for money, even - how much better can it possibly get?" Compared to many other jobs I've done, it's great.

Coincidentally, I received an email from a guy I hadn't met for quite some time - he's spent the last three years in his boat, sailing round the world. Here's an extract from what he wrote to me:

During my working life I managed to get blown up in an IRA bomb, was shot at, stabbed and went to the Old Bailey as a defendant. I also spent most of my career investigating rapes and sexual abuse against children. By the time it came to retire I was totally wasted mentally and physically. I had done 30 years and spent a long time away from [wife's name] and our two boys.

Where was his award?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 11:14 AM

Video highlights of the show can be found here (probably not available to those of you outside the UK)

Best of the Folk Awards 2014

The radio show can be found here (should be available to those of you outside the UK)

Radio 2's Folk Awards 2014

Plus you can always check Youtube as a number of the performances are on there as well

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 11:50 AM

"As far as being a professional, with commitment and "determination and focus and hard work", goes - well, that's true of all jobs and professions. It takes all of those things to be good in anything, but to single out a few for an award seems daft."

So you don't think it should be celebrated when someone does something exceptional? It's not daft to "single out a few" because .. there are generally only a few people doing exceptional things in art! By definition, doing something out of the ordinary means it doesn't happen every day.

I mean, I work hard, sometimes very hard, but I've never recorded an album, let alone a very good folk album that a lot of people seem to like. I don't expect to get an award.

Also, I don't think it's useful to mix up art/entertainment (for which awards that recognise artistic excellence are entirely appropriate) and the travails of a hard working life (for which an "award" should be a decent pension). Really, in a just society,your mate shoudln't have had to go through all that in the first place. Awards don't come into it

But you seem to be taking the Folk Awards a lot more seriously than anyone receving them does. There's no money attached to them. They don't set anyone up for life.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 11:58 AM

Ah Matt - all depends on whether the recipients are really "exceptional"... and that's a value judgment.

I'm not interested at all in the folk awards, but I am interested in the concept and usefulness/uselessness/point/pointlessness of awards in general.

Oddly enough, and coincidentally, there's an interesting article in today's Guardian G2 supplement today: awards ceremonies

I've been to one or two of these showbizzy bashes over the years, as a spectator, and I've never been impressed by the experience. However, Matt, if they make you happy, who am I to argue with you? :-)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 12:15 PM

Do you know I could have predicted every word of this.

BBC puts 2 hours of folk on the TV and people gripe. Cost a load of money in part recompensed by ticket sales.

Lets hand it back to the people and have a nationwide heavily promoted vote from the people.

And when Mumford and Sons win best traditional track; best contemporary track; best album ;best folk rock group; best band; trio; and solo artist plus best band ever in the whole of the universe then you might just wonder where it all went wrong.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 12:26 PM

And when Mumford and Sons win best traditional track; best contemporary track; best album ;best folk rock group; best band; trio; and solo artist plus best band ever in the whole of the universe then you might just wonder where it all went wrong.

Tee hee - that's yet another value judgement!

I always find it interesting that people find it necessary to have "folk" on TV - "Good Lord - a whole two hours - aren't we lucky!" - and then get hacked off because some bloody old griping curmudgeon like me dares to criticise the music. As if we should be grateful already. Some of it's good and worthwhile, and some of it ain't, and we have to exercise our own judgments as to what we individually like or dislike - not blanket approval and a "we should be reelly, reelly grateful" attitude.

Anyway, I like being a griping old curmudgeon now and then - and today is one of those occasions. I shall be all sweetness and light tomorrow, and be tweeting like a skylark.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 02:06 PM

It's repeated on the red button this evening (Thursday) from 10.30, on a loop till tomorrow morning.

The folk scene - dance and song - is multi-faceted. A wide variety of genres (from shanties to love songs to Playford dances to clogs), a wide range of stages (from the session in a pub, to arts centres, concert halls, big festivals and the Royal Albert Hall), a wide variety of approaches and styles (unaccompanied ballad to folk-rock). It's wide enough to be able to pick your own personal bit that interests and entertains you. But there's no need to rubbish the bits that don't personally interest you.

An important aspect of the folk scene is the high level of participation - probably more than any other art form. And it's generally welcoming, friendly and inclusive.

The Folk Awards are one aspect of the whole scene. The mistake is thinking that it's the only or even most important aspect. It isn't.

Derek

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 02:27 PM

With respect, Derek, I'm not "rubbishing" the Folk Awards. I disapprove of them and of awards of that nature, for what I think are good reasons. I've never said anywhere that I think the awards are the most important, or the only aspect of folk music. On the contrary, that's the last thing I think.

Much as I love many sides of music - folk and many other genres - I reserve the right to have a critical opinion of parts of it and voice that opinion in a fair manner. After all, I've spent a large proportion of my life performing music. I'm not a believer in total uncritical, unthinking admiration, and I don't expect that of my own music.

You might as well say that, because I might (for example) be not moved by the paintings of Marc Chagall, I have no right to discuss his work in a critical manner. Which is nonsense. Art generates debate, otherwise it would be utterly boring.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 02:41 PM

never mind as the late Eddy Waring used to say, they're all pals in the shower....

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: johncharles
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 03:00 PM

I ought to get a medal for listening to some of the stuff I've seen in folk clubs over the last forty years.
cheers John

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 03:04 PM

"Watch on the Red Button
Full live coverage can be seen by pressing the Red Button from any BBC TV channel on your digital TV - from 2000 - 2230 on Wednesday 19th February.

We will also be repeating the whole show on a loop from 2230 until 0745 on Thursday 20th February.

There will be a second chance to watch highlights from the 2014 Folk Awards by pressing red at the following times:
Tuesday 25th February:         2000-0700 following morning
Wednesday 26th February:   2000-2350
Thursday 27th February:       0225-0700 and 2000-2320
Friday 28th February:          0300-0700, 2130-2200 and 2230-2320
Saturday 29th February:       0225-0700"

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 04:29 PM

Fair points Will Fly, though my comments were not specifically aimed at you!

My other comment on the red button full show being on this evening (Thursday) was wrong .... as the above cut and paste from the website from "Guest" indicates. "Thursday" refers to when the overnight broadcasts ended this morning...

Must have been all the excitement of the celebrations last night and the lack of sleep (not to mention the wine!)

Derek

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 05:40 PM

I enjoyed the only bit I did see, on YouTube, via CDSS: A Tribute To Cecil Sharp, for the induction of Cecil Sharp as the first member of their "Hall of Fame".

I just wish that they'd listed the performers in the YouTube notes, for those of us who don't get to see their faces most of the time...

~ Becky in Long Beach, USA

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Betsy
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 07:12 PM

I can't fault Will Fly in all of his observations with the exception of Marc Chagall. All I know of that person is that as a painter, apparently he's often copied rather badly.
For the rest of it - best Folk singer - not one Male nomination - and overall - the only person who seems to gigging at a place near you was Martin Simpson.
Who are all the rest ?
I don't know who rolls-out the criteria for these awards - but they seem at odds with the folk roots (what we see in our Folk Clubs or in Concerts in our areas ) no doubt compiled by a bunch of London-based pseudo's who compile the final list(s).
Altogether it's a silly meangingless exercise in this format which does absolutely nothing to humanise or promote the enjoyable grass- roots folk music evening experience.
I honestly think we've forgotten where we came from - the enjoyment , the fun , the togetherness - the camerarderie - the chorus singing ,the pints of beer.
It's almost-as if our music has been gazumped by a bunch of uninterested investors.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 07:51 PM

yeh its too weird. leave 'em to it. render unto Caesar what is dogmeat and all that.

its folk, but not as weknow it Jim. people get worked up every year, I can't see why. its like the last days of the roman empire, the victories got smaller and more debatable and the victory marches got longer and more grandiose.

who wouldn't swap it for an evening in the 60's listening to Gerry lockran, noel murphy, bill caddick. ian Campbell, derek brimstone...everyone smoking ten number 6 for two bob, a double whisky for four bob.......

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Kyle
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 08:55 PM

Big Al, you should own a chip shop. You have enough on your shoulders to open one. Muppet. It's not for everyone but lots of people do love it.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 03:44 AM

kyle dear, there is no chip on my shoulder.   I am in favour of everyone enjoying folk music in their own way.

my detractors generally don't allow that what I enjoy is actually folk music.

I've learned to live with snotty little beasts (like Yourself) with their line in poisonous abuse.
now go away and enjoy whatever it is(apart from insulting people|) that a very limited view of things allows you to.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Reinhard
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 05:25 AM

I honestly think we've forgotten where we came from - the enjoyment , the fun, the togetherness - the camerarderie - the chorus singing ,the pints of beer.

That is exactly what Fay Hield is doing with the Soundpost Singing Weekends, Royal Traditions, Bright Phoebus, and the Full English project with grew out of all that. Her awards, even if nominally only for The Full English, are well earned.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 05:30 AM

If you have Freeview you don't need to use the red button. Just go to channel 301 or 302.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Jim Martin
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 06:28 AM

Nice tribute to Pete Seeger at the end of programme with sister Peggy!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 07:10 AM

Well, I enjoyed it, recorded it, and will watch it again. Each to their own, of course.

A question.

The Cecil Sharp tribute concluded with some Morris dancing. Can anyone tell me what the tune was? I'm certainly no Morris expert but it seemed fairly weak compared with many other Morris tunes that I've heard. Does it have a particular significance in Sharp's legacy?

(approx 7 minutes in on this clip www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYgc5yBGOfw if you've not seen it).

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Silas
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 07:34 AM

If I may add my t'pennoth about awards. I detest award ceremonies. I think they are narcissist self congratulatory farcical back slapping self promoting shite developed for the industry they are attached to.
However. I think the folk awards are a bit different. Why? Well…..Firstly, there is precious little folk music on TV – there are the superb transatlantic sessions and the occasional documentary like the recent Nic Jones one, but in essence very little. I like to see folk music on TV for no other reason that I like to see folk music on TV. All other genres seem to be well catered for, and I am grateful to have the little that we have. Also, the people who are winning these awards are not household names, ask most people if they know of Bella Hardy or even Martin Simpson and you would get a very blank look. The folk awards are small, intimate and quite nice – and the people who win are all very nice people who are just very good at what they do – not superstars with egos to match, just ordinary people like you and me.
The awards always cause a needless controversy about who won. Who should have won? And the trotted out phrases every year same old faces' etc. All nonsense of course, all of the 'winners' are outstanding in their field and all awards are well justified – the thing is, almost everyone nominated, and many that are not all deserve awards – the talent that is on offer these days within the small world of folk music is immense – better that it has ever been.
It's a great thing to win an award, it does help with an artists profile and although there is no immediate financial reward for winning, it does help with getting bookings and also helps in backing up the individual artist fees.
But for me, it's just nice to see folk music on TV. TV brought me into folk music. In the late sixties and early seventies, looking back through no doubt rose coloured spectacles, these seemed to be a fair amount on TV. The much maligned Spinners, Ian Campbell, The Yetis, Ewan McColl etc and I also remember many a folk performer doing kids shows. If it hadn't been for this exposure then I may have not got 'into' folk at all, and the same applies to many people I am sure.
So, let's have a little less knocking and a bit more appreciation for a well produced show that offers some superb music and a chance to also see some up and coming youngsters into the fold.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 08:12 AM

well justified...

I think you're right to be positive about folk on tv.

but really one wonders how you would have reacted as a child to much of the music on offer. its all a bit up its own bum. would it draw anyone in, who wasn't in the zone anyway.

much praise for the full English. but is that the way to put a group together. surely all those groups you mention that drew you in, started with people getting together of their own volition and because they felt they had something to give.

and does it need a guitarist of Martin Simpson's genius ability to tie down that gig? bit of a drowning accident going on there.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Mitch the Bass
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 10:21 AM

Ed asked
"The Cecil Sharp tribute concluded with some Morris dancing. Can anyone tell me what the tune was? ... Does it have a particular significance in Sharp's legacy?"

On the 26th December 1899 Cecil Sharp saw Headington Quarry Morris Dances dancing to this tune, Laudnum Bunches, played on the concertina by William Kimber. He wrote down 5 dances that day.

You can see Sharp's manuscript in the Full English archive at http://www.vwml.org/search?qtext=laudnum%20bunches&ts=1392995913024&collectionfilter=HHA;SBG;JHB;LEB;GB;CC;COL;GG;AGG;PG;HAM;MK;

Mitch

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 11:10 AM

Thank you very much, Mitch. I appreciate that a lot.

Ed

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: SunrayFC
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 12:59 PM

Any folk on TV and radio is welcome.

I just wish it wasnt produced by Smooth Operations. It adds a bias that I consider unwelcome and unnecessary.

And far too many names from the folk world are ignored.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Dicky boy
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 01:11 PM

Well said Silas,in agrement with you could not have put it better...

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 03:09 PM

Smooth Operations...adds a bias that I consider unwelcome

Could you explain what you mean by that please, SunrayFC?

From what I know of Smooth Operations, they produce various music programmes for BBC radio where the DJ/Presenter is given pretty much carte blanche in terms of what music they play (Stuart Maconie, Bob Harris, Mark Radcliffe etc.)

What is this perceived bias? I'm genuinely curious to know.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Stuart Reed
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 06:41 PM

Outstanding versions of Died For Love and Willie o' Winsbury on the international airwaves - what's not to like?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 01:36 AM

The words of Child Ballad 100 Willie o' Winsbury were set to the tune of Child Ballad 101 Fause Foodrage by Andy Irvine. They appeared together on the debut album of Sweeney's Men in 1968, sung by Andy Irvine accompanying himself on guitar. The arrangement has found a place in folk music mythology.

Johnny Moynihan wrote in the sleeve notes; "A ballad for which Andy is renowned. He got the text from Child's 'English And Scottish Ballads'; looking up the tune he got his numbers confused and emerged with the wrong air. By chance it suited the song very well."

In 2010, Andy Irvine re-recorded the words to the same tune on his album Abocurragh, adding with a touch of defiance; "This is Child 100. I collected the words from different versions and as the story goes, on looking up the tune, I lighted on the tune to number 101. I'm not sure if this is true but it's a good story".

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Oggie
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 11:52 AM

I enjoyed it and the performers will enjoy their PRS payments. It does no harm to anyone, it may do some good, so why not have a bit a publicity once a year.

It would be nice if it was more than that but it's better than none.

steve

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 01:21 PM

that's the whole problem oggie. is the music of such a nature that they will have full post bags full of people begging for more? will anyone who hasn't got a couple of Steeleye Span/Martin Carthy albums watch it in the first place, 0r will the first couple of sycophantic introductions a to dirgey folksong/facetious bloody violin solo finish them off.

will the programme planners be rejoicing and saying - we've struck gold! if we fill the channel with programmes like this - our fortunes are assured.

I think not. they will be thinking, thank god that rubbish is over for another year...and really its hard to blame them.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 04:42 PM

Drek Schofield points out,The Folk Awards are one aspect of the whole scene.
in my opinion, they should not be, its a feckin stupid idea,furthermore I wish that those people who wish to use the folk scene as a stepping stone to pop stardom, would feck off, and leave the rest of us to enjoy playing music because we like playing music. Derek,I hope you do not mind me asking, do you think the awards are a good idea?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 05:14 PM

I rather liked Bella Hardy's reply to the question "What difference will winning the award make to you" on Simon Mayo's build-up to the awards. She replied (not verbatim) "None, but it's nice to be nominated in this company" (Fay Hield/ Lisa Knapp/ Lucy Ward.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 05:30 PM

each to their own, guest, but if i was choosing company to be nominated in, I would choose pete seeger,woody guthrie, paul robeson,all people who showed they had convictions and suffered for their beliefs and whose convictions come across in their music, and who were passionate about their music and using music to try and correct injustice. IMO Pete Seegers contribution to Folk Music has been much more important than Hardy, Knapp, Hield and Ward or any other company of Solicitors.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 05:50 PM

IMO Pete Seegers contribution to Folk Music has been much more important than Hardy, Knapp, Hield and Ward

And the show was ended by a eulogy and tribute to Pete Seeger, led by Peggy.

Did you actually watch it? Or just throw your grumpy criticisms from afar?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 07:30 PM

one of the problems with allowing guest eds and other guests to express opinion isthat we have no idea from which perspective, he or she speaks - and thus we have no idea why they can't understand the point of view of professional folk musicians like GSS and myself.

I understand the point of view of respecting someone like Seeger whose songs have put the bread on our tables. Also we respect Peggy Seeger and the memories of her late husband and brother. Take it from us there a qualitative difference between these musicians and the folk awards gang. Folk music wasn't a career opportunity for them, or us.

Still as GSS and I are lucky enough to have lived a long time, I suppose we are lucky enough. When you get old though - its goes with the territory. One is misunderstood.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 09:20 PM

Do we need to state our CV and credentials to post on Mudcat? Can only professionals have valid opinions? I am not a professional musician (OK, I get a few bob now and then for playing in a ceilidh band) but have been very much involved in folk music since my teenage years in the 60s folk revival or whatever you like to call it.
I'm getting old too, but I'd say "The Times They Are a- Changin'" - total anathema to some, I know, and not all for the better.
But I'd also venture to say that possibly, just possibly, some of the newer generation of folk artists know a lot more about what they are playing or singing about than some of us did way back when. Partly down to their degree courses for some, or their own personal research, assisted by modern technology and the information explosion on the internet. While I don't take kindly to my old favourites being given thrashy guitar-driven funky choppy rhythms, there are some very good younger artists out there who are maintaining the balance between keeping within the tradition and injecting their own take on certain songs and tunes.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 11:56 PM

canonly professionals ve valid opinions....of course not.

I just get a bit fed up when ones opinions are wilfully misunderstood and misrepresented.

as for the times a changin'......the beebs attitude to folk music hasn't changed. during the 60's and seventies and eighties - the prospect of an evening with rolf harris or val doonican sent us out from our homes scuttling out to folk clubs.the ghastly transatlantic session (smirk along with Aly Blain) and the folk awards are still sending me out to the folk clubs.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 04:01 AM

When you think of how many folkies are out there do you think many of them give a flying **** what mudcat thinks or the folk awards deliver.
I suspect the answer is NO.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Terrified Tim
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 04:08 AM

Oh no, I've just started thinking of how many folkies are out there...

aaaaaaaaggggghhhhhhh !!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: johncharles
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 04:11 AM

Is "professional folk musician" an oxymoron?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 05:03 AM

"Or just throw your grumpy criticisms from afar?."I was stating whose company i would rather be nominated in,and why, if you choose to interpret that as a grumpy criticism, thats your problem, have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: LesB
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 05:45 AM

The benefit of recording such events is that you can watch them in chunks when you have time & ffwd those you wish to avoid. I watched the last bit late last night & I thought that the best for me was the appreciation of Cecil Sharpe & Martin & Eliza Carthy & the Full English. I skipped a number of award presenters when they started getting boring, skipped Clannad, Fishermans Friends & one or two others that didn't catch my attention. All in all I quite enjoyed it.
By the way was that short chubby grey bearded chap (sounds like me) sat next to the Carthy's table a Lesser Spotted Bill Oddie?
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 07:05 AM

"But I'd also venture to say that possibly, just possibly, some of the newer generation of folk artists know a lot more about what they are playing or singing about than some of us did way back when. Partly down to their degree courses for some, or their own personal research, assisted by modern technology and the information explosion on the internet".
speak for yourself, there is no evidence that they know more or less about what they are playing or singing than musicians of earlier generations.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 07:40 AM

yes i'm not really happy with the professional folk musician tag either.

its abit like being a world musician.....you definitely exist in the world

dumb as an ox, and a bit of a moron.....its possible.
a professional oxymoron...sounds about right.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 10:11 AM

on thesubject of people using he folk scene as stepping stone to pop stardom. I sort of disagree with GSS - good egg as his.

ater all in the 60's wehad loads of pop stas come from the folk club. Dylan Donovan, Baez, Cat Stevens,|Joni Mitchell,Don Partridge, Don Maclean

we had loads of people in he folk clubs wanting to hear those songs nd loadsof people wanting to play them.

What have we got these days.

many wonderful guardians of the tradition- no   hands safer I should imagine. but could any of them write a song that good? I imagine it was a stern discipline going in to bat against the beatles.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Mike Rogers
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 12:38 PM

When I read some of the comments in this thread I despair for the future of folk music (as indeed I have done for more than fifty years).
The bitterness of some old stagers on here because of the success of the Laylam and Full English personnel would be slightly amusing were it not so pathetic.
And as for the status of performers - well, in my book they're either (a)amateur (they don't get paid), (b)semi-professional (they get paid but they have other jobs) or (c)professional (they earn their living from folk). I would suggest that anyone who is troubled by the description 'professional folk singer' changes their status from (c) to(a) forthwith. And take care not to dribble into your beer.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Terrified Tim
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 12:56 PM

Mike, is it so easy to polarise young'uns verus 'old stagers' ?

my next 'big' birthday will be my 60th;

yet as it happens, I personally, am now reluctantly accepting that it's actually some of the creaky old guard celebs
of the the 'folk establishment' elite,
who are dragging down standards of live TV performance on rare broadcast shows such as this.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,silas
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 04:14 PM

Mike- you are so right

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 04:22 PM

many wonderful guardians of the tradition

Jesus Christ. Help me, someone. We'll be talking about "ambassadors for folk" next.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 04:47 PM

Jesus Christ. Help me, someone. We'll be talking about "ambassadors for folk" next.

And your constructive suggestion, would be what?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 05:02 PM

My constructive suggestion for what?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 05:37 PM

Anything would be start...

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 06:43 PM

My daughter's comments from outside on this - a typical 23 year old, therefore what should be our target market - were that the performances were monotonous, the tales uninteresting. That is the reality of what has been done to the folk world by the Trad school.

It's basically because there's only so much you can do to the that repertoire, and it's mostly been done - to death. Those who did it to death have moved on to writing their own work. It's not so much about where you've been as where you're going. Yes, where you've been is important, but where you're going is vital.

The Imagined Village isn't about Trad repertoire, but taking the spirit of folk music into somewhere that's new. Some of Bellowhead's work does the same. I'm not talking New American, or New Mumford, or New Age, but something which in three hundred years time will be a recognisable descendant of Cecil Sharp's collections, yet not done before. Even the most ancient of folk trad was new once.

Last year a number of folks on stage at the Albert Hall led out on Tapping The Source, setting a baseline for taking folk music forwards, and where they're going is interesting - not on album yet, maybe never, you'll have to follow Radio 3 to find out. Most definitely not Trad, but rooted in Trad. It may become Trad in 200 years, and your successors will most certainly be asking what the heck they were on when they did it. The objective answer is nothing, just shaking the cage.

Now that may not fit the Smooth Operations definition of Folk, which seems rather closer to Wally Whyton's than Full English. I ask you, the Mischa Macpherson Trio? Wasn't that the act not even Nazi Stormtroopers could get off stage in the Sound of Music? Or was it the Melrose Quartet? Nancy, what were you thinking of? The point is that although there is a place for Trad, it should not exclude all else, and there are enough hints in the Tradition to come up with new work which is faithful to the corpus. New words, new tunes, new ideas. Break the mould, get edgy, be surprising.

Heaven only knows what Billy Bragg's opinion of this thread would be. I know what the viewpoint of many performing folkies in the Dalston area is. There's enough to scream about. And all you can do is talk about weaving by steam!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 06:50 PM

sneering and bitterness seems all one way to me. as it always has been. no debate just snotty remarks from people who have nowt to say - just that they don't like what you're saying.

fact remains - could any of the current lot write a song that gets people singing all over the world like the much maligned Donovan/Dylan gang did?

answer came there none. mainly because the toffs at the beeb have you convinced that anyone with a certain agency and with record company puff behind them is worthy of a programme on bbc4, plays on bbc2 radio, awards hither and thus.

meanwhile to my certain knowledge folk clubs up and down the land are scratching their heads looking for acts that can put bums on seats and then entertain ....

if you want to go along with the bullshit - have the guts to say so don't blame it on the messenger.
fact is, much is rotten in the state of folk music in England. nobody's bitter - just frustrated that this ridiculous situation of promoting middle class mediocrity has gone on for so long.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Guest Betsy
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 07:26 PM

I've got to agree with you Al.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 07:29 PM

think about it. if the beeb actually played and made programmes about people who can do the business in folk clubs - rather than these recording artists/would be festival acts.

oh what a bitter twisted thought!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 07:46 PM

imagine that....

Bob Fox in a one hour special from the stage

Bill Caddick.....

Jack Hudson.....

Alan Bell taking about his songs and singing them.

John Connolly.......

oh it so bitter, so mean spirited....sometimes I wonder why I'm such a vicious shit.....

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 08:42 PM

Actually, Al, I have said some very nice things in this thread if only you'd care to read back. My riposte had little to do with the state of folk music in itself but lots to do with the awful "guardians of the tradition" awe in which we occasionally seem to hold a few of the folk music "elders" (I hate to say "establishment figures"...) which I'm damn sure is a serious embarrassment to a good few of same!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 10:27 PM

oooooooh! I wouldn't waste your compassion. this a hole that took some years to dig themselves into. and its involved telling a lot of people who have dedicated their lives to making the techniques we all use, that they don't play folk music.

can I recommend a book called escaping the delta by Elijah Wald.
Wald is an occasional mudcatter. he writes so penetratingly about the blues.

we've never had awriter in this country, with those powers of analysis writing about our folk clubs. so perceptive. so much of what he says applies equally to our music.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 04:00 AM

we've never had awriter in this country, with those powers of analysis writing about our folk clubs

Stanley Accrington!

DtG

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 04:51 AM

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Mike Rogers - PM
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 12:38 PM

When I read some of the comments in this thread I despair for the future of folk music (as indeed I have done for more than fifty years).
The bitterness of some old stagers on here because of the success of the Laylam and Full English personnel would be slightly amusing were it not so pathetic.
And as for the status of performers - well, in my book they're either (a)amateur (they don't get paid), (b)semi-professional (they get paid but they have other jobs) or (c)professional (they earn their living from folk). I would suggest that anyone who is troubled by the description 'professional folk singer' changes their status from (c) to(a) forthwith. And take care not to dribble into your beer."
   bitterness? I have heard both bella hardy and lucy ward relatively recently, and i think they are both pleasant singers. you make an assumption that some old stagers are bitter because of someone elses success, that is unfair,

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 04:51 AM

and another thing. if you're daft enough to go a big festival - chemical toilets, crap sound, foreign language students shouting unin telligbly, beer junkies, yowling kids, mud, crushed beer cans underfoot. fair enuff if that's your bag.   but its shit television!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 04:51 AM

and another thing. if you're daft enough to go a big festival - chemical toilets, crap sound, foreign language students shouting unin telligbly, beer junkies, yowling kids, mud, crushed beer cans underfoot. fair enuff if that's your bag.   but its shit television!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 04:54 AM

I am against the principle of Folk awards, and i would say the same things if it was Carthy or jez lowe[a personal friend] or anyone else. mike rogers go somewhere else with your unfounded trolling assumptions.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Silas
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 05:10 AM

Mike is about the only person here that is talking any sense at all.
Every year it is the same old shite from the same old people. If you don't like it, don't watch it, you know that you are not going to like it. Simples.

The awards are largely irreleveant, the music is generally great and its so nice to see live performaces of folk music on the TV.

As for those remarkably stupid comments about the Transatlantic sessions - well, I am left speechless.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 05:59 AM

Every year it is the same old shite from the same old people. If you don't like it, don't watch it, you know that you are not going to like it. Simples."
Silas, if you dont like it go away,mean while I will exercise my right to say that the principle of having folk awards,has all the worst aspects of the folk world ,what nxt a eurovision folk song contest?, for god sake, this music is about people making home made music for their own enjoyment,it is not about trying to be the prettiest,most fashionable, most acceptable piece of establishment popfolk disposable sliced white bread pap so called folk.
those who sup with the commercial world of Tin pan alley ,do so at their peril.
there is an old scottish saying it takes a long spoon to sup with a Fifer, it takes a longer spoon to sup with the world of tin pan alley,tin pan alley is infested with businessmen and sharks who make the Fly Fifer a Benevolent Bovine.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 06:40 AM

you are left speechless Silas. no you're bloody not. you just called me stupid. which is not reasoned debate - it is abuse.

I think the transatlantic sessions are excruciating. if anyone actually liked them they would made it out of the shallows of bbc4.

it is a dilution of what most of the artists do - and frankly it subtracts rather than adds to what they do. it self indulgent, it takes the edge off edgy artists.

okay your turn - why am I stupid for thinking thus?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Silas
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 06:54 AM

Well, Al, since you ask, I do think you are stupid, mind you, I have only your stupid posts to judge you on, you may in reality be a nice sensible bloke - but your post, at least some of them, are stupid. Just read the one about big festivals - can it get any more stupid?

As I have said, if you don't like the folk awards - don't watch them - it's not mandatory, you do have a choice.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 07:13 AM

yes it can get more stupid. imagining that calling someone stupid is explaining a sensible point of view.

if you don't give a shit about the music - obviously you won't mind it being represented in a naff way. but in that case what are you doing on this forum slinging insults at people who do care.

now that is stupid. have you ever been to a big festival? if you had....oh forget it..... you're stupid!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 07:19 AM

big festivals are about commercialism and bums on seats. often with poor infra structure and facilties. Silas,I do not like the folk awards but i have a right [its called free speech] to object to the importance the media give to these hyped up, glorified Star Searching .
if you dont like us disagreeing with the idea of the folk awards,you dont have to post to this thread its not mandatory you have a choice.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Silas
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 07:20 AM

So (and feel free to correct me if I am wrong, you don't like the BBC Folk Awards, you don't like the Transatlantic sessions, you don't like festivals - err, what DO you like exactly?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Silas
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 07:25 AM

Whilst I would not deny that festivals have become more commercially aware over the past ten years or so, the essence is still the same - it gives us punters a chance to see some really first class performers in one place at one time. It also showcases lesser known acts and gives a weekend of sessions, song and dance all for a very reasonable fee. I have to assume that some of you have not been to festivals for a while as the ones I attend have really good facilities as far as toilets, showers, food outlets, beer quality etc is concerned.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Terrified Tim
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 07:28 AM

The worst thing about 'Folk' music as a genre - is people.

What is it about UK folk music that attracts such an alarming proliferation of vociferous vainglorious smug arseholes ?

Thank god for tranquil solitude, CDs, headphones, and a nice comfy armchair.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 08:59 AM

Silas, I do not recall saying I did not like festivals. I tell you what i like,
last night I was guest at Cork singers club, the standard of singers was high, and i enjoyed non professionals who were excellent singers, singing purely for enjoyment and doing it very well.
Silas you are presumptious, if i dont like festivals why would i run one,http://entertainment.ie/festival/Cork/The-Fastnet-Maritime-and-Folk-Festival-2014/4781.htm
you are very silly and make all sorts of assumptions about me ,when you do not know me, now please take your ignorant comments elsewhere

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Selby
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 09:21 AM

What happened to tolerance,the folk awards are what they are, accept it if you don't like it use the off button fitted to all TV.s. Transatlantic session does not float my boat so I don't watch it I may miss some thing exciting but that is my choice. Festivals these days IMHO are great with a good mix of artist's plus good musician sessions, good singing sessions, great morris and social dancing with most festivals having feed back forms with suggestions fitted. The folk scene has always been a broad tolerant scene,yet here all we seem to have is name calling.Enjoy what is on offer.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,silas
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 09:26 AM

My comments were not aimed at you GSS but at Al.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 09:59 AM

small festivals ...fylde, priddy, Wessex, gainsborough. not as good as folk clubs. but okay.
I don't mind concerts. its hard enough to get a good stage set up for one acoustic artist. sometimes - you get a great artist stifled by a rotten stage set up - Steve Tilston at Wimborne being a case in point. there were four other acts . no chance of getting it right.

people who can perform, present, understand, project folk music.

one of the best series on dvd was guitar maestros. great artists...wiz jones interviewed by Carthy. Martin Simpson, Carthy himself, Tilston. interviewed and created by Trevor Dann.

the beeb couldn't even dream of doing a folk programme of that quality.

that's what I like.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 01:11 PM

Watched the highlights programme on iPlayer last night: enjoyed some, not some, probably different bits from some of the posters here: that's normal isn't it? But I don't go round labelling anything "I" personally don't like as "shite" as I know someone else will love it! Transatlantic Sessions were on BBC2 long before BBC4 was invented, and there are some real gems among the various recordings. And, oh yes, shame on me, I have most of the DVDs. And - wait for it - I like Bellowhead (have been shot down in flames for confessing that before now! Shock horror!!)
As for "speak for yourself", no, I was speaking for the younger artists that I know up here in Scotland: many very knowledgeable about what they are doing/singing/playing, and average 40 years younger than me. They don't ALL play at the speed of light all the time.
Oh, and well said Terrified Tim, tho' I don't go with your final sentence!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 02:08 PM

yes there are some gems, paul brady doing Arthur McBride - isn't great when the ensemble shuts the ---- up?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Johnny J
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 05:51 PM

"As for "speak for yourself", no, I was speaking for the younger artists that I know up here in Scotland: many very knowledgeable about what they are doing/singing/playing, and average 40 years younger than me."

And even, we ourselves, know much more than we did 40 years ago. Although there were a minority of very knowledgeable individuals and(even by the standards of those days) excellent musicians, most people were still finding their way including even the Gaughans, Carthys and so on.

In general, today's younger musicians are indeed more knowledgeable and "technically advanced" in musical terms. That's not to suggest that they will necessarily have the same "soul" or "feel" for their music or are as likely to be as ground breaking as many of the acts during the revival. Many of them will, of course, but some others might just take all the extra advantages and opportunities for granted. Only time will tell.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 06:21 PM

From this thread I think we can divide Catters into two camps.

1. Those who just know what they like and ignore the rest
2. Those who think that commercial success is evil.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 06:45 PM

yeh that's us!

we hate money and we know nowt about folk music compared to pre pubertal Scots people.

mind you I used hear all this bollocks years ago.

the way it manifested itself in those days was:-

1. there are ten year olds in Ireland who play better fiddle than Dave Swarbrick
2. white people can't play the blues

live long enuff the recycled rubbish will be served up to you as current thinking.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Johnny J
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 06:56 PM

"we know nowt about folk music compared to pre pubertal Scots people."

I don't believe that anyone is saying or suggesting that but many of them are certainly more talented and knowledgeable than I was at that "pre pubertal age" and in many other areas too besides folk music.

Of course, such youngsters have had more opportunities than me(and most of us here, I'm sure).   On the other hand, many other young people still don't get these and are, sadly, even worse off than we were in many ways.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 03:56 AM

I'll take that as a veiled compliment, Al. I said these young folk were 40 yrs younger than me. That makes them about mid to late 20s, not pre-pubertal!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 04:37 AM

It may be the last time that the Scots are eligible for the BBC Folk Awards.

In future there may be the British less Scottish (BLESS) Awards and separate CAledonian Broadcasting Ethnic Recognition Show (The CABERS).

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 04:38 AM

From this thread I think we can divide Catters into two camps.

1. Those who just know what they like and ignore the rest
2. Those who think that commercial success is evil.

That's a simplistic judgement, and shows how far the thread has drifted. The awards are nothing to do with commercial success or otherwise - and may or may not be a guarantee of future success. They're nothing to do with age or styles of music or geographical area, or professionalism or amateurism - or even a yardstick by which other people should measure themselves. In my view, which I stated originally, they're an arbitrary, showbiz beanfeast which, like other awards, highlight some people while ignoring equally good people - for reasons which I know not. And that's why I don't care for awards ceremonies.

I don't begrudge anyone commercial success or making money from music - any kind of music - in any way they can. It would be hypocritical for me to do so when I've made money myself doing the business over the years. And I don't care what music people choose to play or how old they are, or what their background is. My dears, I don't give a damn - let each person do just what they want to, and each of us will go with what we like.

Some posters here have said that we shouldn't begrudge the performers their moment on radio/TV, etc., and that it's good to hear the music in the media. I absolutely agree with that, but I think the hoo-hah surrounding and awards ceremony, with all the crap that surrounds it, is boring and expensive. What I would really like to see is the money being spent on a series of 30 minute TV programmes, each one allocated to a performer or a group - and I believe Al suggested this back in the thread. That would be real exposure for the music and show much greater commitment to it than a one-off, annual awards bash. But I don't think we'll get that from SmoothOperations, or whatever they call themself. Granted, such a series would also a selective process, but at least there would be an identified series producer with a brief that one could see.

But I might as well spit into the wind...

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Silas
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 04:45 AM

The problem is Will, as I am sure you are aware, if some enterprising TV company took this on board, there would still be the mudcat whiners complaing about 'why wasn't so and so given an episode' or 'Why did the do one on that talentless sod' etc. No one can win here. I just enjoy what is avaliable.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: melodeonboy
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 04:58 AM

"For me the whole point of Folk based music is that its is reactionary"

I certainly hope that it never becomes that!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 04:59 AM

I know what the problem is, Silas - and I used to work for the Beeb many years ago. There have to be value judgments, naturally, but at least an individual series producer can construct a set of boundaries in which to work and develop a series theme - and that theme can be examined and debated if necessary.

Just look at what Sting is doing with his show about the Gateshead shipyards - wonderful. But then he has money and mixes with money, so he can get his talent and the talents of others up there with an audience. Still takes guts though.

I'm glad, on the whole, that we still have the Transatlantic Sessions, though - like others - I've been increasingly frustrated over the years with what I perceive to be a growing blandness in the presentation. But, hey-ho, that's just me - I like a bit of grit in the mix - and to my mind, series 6 can't compare with series 2 or 3 , for example.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 05:09 AM

I've posted this before here - and I'll post it again. This is what the music is all about...

The Kansas City Hornpipe/ Jarlath's Tune - Bruce Molsky & Fred Morrison

Oh for some more wonderful, simply presented, glorious stuff like this!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Silas
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 05:10 AM

I agree about Sting. I also though the Nic Jones doc was done extremely well. I have other thoughts about the Unthanks documentaries - good as it was to have seen them and not in any way knocking the Unthanks, I think they could have been done better. The Transatlanic sessions are slick - no doubt about that - but for me it is the pinnacle of what can be achieved by top quality musicians and singers getting together. They do shed the ametuerism that folk music is well known for, but is that a bad thing?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Johnny J
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 05:15 AM

"It may be the last time that the Scots are eligible for the BBC Folk Awards.

In future there may be the British less Scottish (BLESS) Awards and separate CAledonian Broadcasting Ethnic Recognition Show (The CABERS). "

Well, that would not necessarily be the case as several Irish acts have featured over the years.

How would you define a Scottish act, anyway?
After all, Bella Hardy lives in Scotland and she is very welcome too.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 05:17 AM

well as I've pointed out the programmes do exist but on dvd that you have to pay for.
the bbc is in a better position to pay for them than me - but if I want to see a decent folk programme that's what I have to do. that is in fact what I do.

the difference is that guys like Trevor Dann (biographer of Nick Drake) actually know something about folk music.

Isn't this really what this debate is about. The nation showing some respect for an art form. bugger the photo opportunities for the goodies and has 1970's dj's, and retired comedians. the flotsam and jetsam of the media. this serious stuff - wiz jones has played for nearly sixty years, blues that blind boy fuller only played for about five or six years |(BBF was dead before he was thirty). Wizz is damn good.

this isn't strictly dancing on ice. bugger the celebrities. lets put a proper focus on the artform and yes - you're right Silas (if you let the pigs decide it, they will put you in the sty, as the ISB said) let the current gang of twats decide it and you will have a series devoted to the shite with major recoding contracts - money will change hands. as Lloyd webber said, I know them so well.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Johnny J
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 05:23 AM

Further to my last post, Bella also regularly performs and records with Scottish musicians who would obviously deserve to be recognised too.
:-)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: johncharles
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 05:52 AM

"They do shed the ametuerism (amateurism)that folk music is well known for, but is that a bad thing?"
Without amateurs, both collecting and performing, it is unlikely that folk music would have ever reached the dizzy heights of having televised award ceremonies. They maintain the tradition of live music and no doubt form a significant part of the audience for the folk professionals.
john

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 06:04 AM

well johnny - i'd say sod the politicians and politics. lets think in terms of great Britain as was before 1922.

I think a lot of the regional differences are a bit arbitrary. most of us are mixed race, and the cities are full of Irish and Welsh people and there is a great cross fertilisation of songs.

does a Belfast person who comes to work in Sheffield still sing The Doffin Mistress - yeh course they do. they acquire a Sheffield accent and put Yorkshire words and mill slang in over time. I mean that's just human behaviour.

similarly off to Dublin in the green - many regional variations can be heard in English folk clubs.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 06:34 AM

oh yeah.. and the Albert effin' Hall - how much does that cost to book then ?

Our local Social Club is massive, and it's got a stage and PA in the corner.
I'm sure Tony the manager could sort out a deal for next year's awards ceremony.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Silas
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 06:37 AM

Johncharles - I think I may have phrased that badly - I have no problems with ameteurism (however it is spelt) none at all, in fact I love the very rawness of general folk music. But I think the general public do percieve folk music as very much an ameteur genre and the point I was (badly) tying to make is these guys are far from amateur.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 07:10 AM

I agree Will, Sting probably has gambled! but with some of the best artists from the English folk scene(although not one of them mentioned at these "awards")he couldn't go far wrong, considering the project material. A fantastic CD(which I purchased although not a Sting fan)and a great show which the "BBC" televised in December

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 08:14 AM

"In general, today's younger musicians are indeed more knowledgeable and "technically advanced" in musical terms"   That is your opinion, my opinion based on what I see and hear is that there is no evidence to suggest that they are any more or less so. I still see young bands who are crap and or very loud and doing things purely to be different, and young bands and solo musicians who are very good, neither is there any proof that they are any more knowledgeable than previous generations.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 08:26 AM

Quite right, Dick - such generalisations have no evidence to back them up. More knowledgeable and technically advanced than... Davy Graham? Bert Jansch? Al Stewart?

And how about this old boy - still playing - who was a huge influence on many of us about 1970 or so:

David Laibman - The Ragtime Oriole

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Johnny J
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 09:09 AM

I never had the chance to hear "Davy Graham? Bert Jansch? Al Stewart?" in their teenage years but the fact that names such as those stand out from the crowd would indicate that they were in a minority at the time.

Most young folkies at that time were lucky if they could string together more than four or five chords and there were very few good instrumentalists to be heard back then. You had fiddlers like Swarb, Aly Bain and so on but even they were still in the early stages of their careers.

Evidence?

Compare old recordings from that period with what's available now.

Of course, these great musicians have developed and improved over the years but so will those young ones of today.

Also, please note I did say "In general" and, therefore, I didn't mean that the best of today's young musicians were necessarily better than "the best" of previous generations. However, I'd suggest that it is fairly obvious that far more of them have reached a higher standard than back then.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Silas
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 09:19 AM

I agree with Johnny J. The current generatgion have leaned a lot from the pioneering generation that has been mentioned, have learned and moved it forward. Instumentalists of today, and I mean particularly theb younger ones are far, far in advance of almost anything that I saw in the seventies amnd eighties. Look at people like Tim Edey, Dan Walsh, Jim Moray, Blair Dunlop, Ciaran Algar and Greg Russell and I could fill a page with names. The reason that we single out Swarb, Bert Jansch, Davey Graham is because they were exceptional - I would say that side by side, in comparison with the current talenty on offer they they would be mainstream. BUT - they did show the way.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 09:25 AM

"How would you define a Scottish act, anyway?"

Scottish acts will be granted Protected Designation of Origin.

At least Bella Hardy will have a say on whether she becomes a Scottish folk singer or not. I won't be allowed to vote on it.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 10:33 AM

Davey Graham ...mainstream?
and Pol Pot was a liberal democrat....

Let me assure you, there was planet Davy Graham....and then the rest of us. He would have been exceptional in any age.

Bert Jansch's don't turn up in bus loads either

As for showing the way....I don't really know where to start.
Steve Knightley said in an interview a few months back - the trouble with this sort of music - you have to do it for about ten years before you're any good.

I look forward to hearing anybody of any age as good as Bert or Davy. As the late |Roger Brooks once said to me - you're jamming with Bert and you're thinking this is easy - the he just goes off in another gear.... he is stunningly original.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 10:39 AM

Davey had a Scottish dad. and Bert was born and grew up in Scotland.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Silas
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 10:40 AM

"I look forward to hearing anybody of any age as good as Bert or Davy."


Sadly Al, that is unlikeley to happen for you as you don't seem to be interested in up and coming talent. There are plenty of people who are at least the equal of these guys, but you will probably never see them.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 10:46 AM

I had to laugh at all this. I've been playing for nearly 50 years, and I've known some stunning musicians in that time, believe me - "amateur" and "professional".

What else can one say? If you met them, you met them - if you didn't, you didn't.

'Nuff said.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 10:58 AM

There will only be one Davey Graham and only one of many other great musicians. That is all we really need.

We shouldn't be looking for young musicians to be as good as or the equal to Davey Graham. Surely, they can be themselves and unique in their own way.

All I am really saying is that as far as the good or above average musicians are concerned the bar has got much higher in recent years and there are many more players of that standard or above.

That's fairly inevitable as there are more opportunities available plus a wealth of previous experience (from many of the greats you have mentioned) from which these younger musicians can draw.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 11:30 AM

well I admit it does take quite a lot to impress me. its something I take seriously. i'm not familiar with one or two of the names on your list - but others, I would say you have to be joking.

i could only insult you by drawing conclusions about your acuity and insight, from what you have said. not that insulting me has bothered you much. but i think it best that i quit this thread.

yes Will - i understand what you're saying - there are interesting bits and pieces at most gigs. you can learn from players with very limited techniques. but to totally re-imagine the instrument like davy, and the re-imagine it again. i can only think of django rheinhardt and eric roche who did that.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 11:36 AM

I haven't produced a "list" as yet. That must have been someone else.
:-)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: johncharles
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 11:52 AM

Why do we seem to have more talented young performers?
1. many are first or second generation from performing families.
2. better access and more enlightened musical and academic education
3. public schools spotting the opportunities in acting and music.
john

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 12:20 PM

what utter bollocks, davy graham.. mainstream, furthermore nic jones,and carthy were innovators and have yet to be surpassed by younger guitarists, as accompanists, where are the young superior 5 string banjoists?
as for button accordionists none of the irish young ones are any better than finbarr dwyer or paddy o brien .
Finally,I have yet to hear a young concertina player, surpass on song accompaniment of the arrangements of some of the older concertina accompanists, no names no pack drill.
johnny j, your generalisations are your opinion, but in my opinion codswallop., yes there are some good young musicians and singers no one denies that but no evidence they are any better.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 12:49 PM

What a shame that there'll never be anyone as good as these old timers then?

It's obvious that you don't have a clue what I'm talking about and I don't understand what you are coming from either. However, I'm quite that we both know what we are talking about ourselves.
So, we'll have to agree to differ.
:-)

You can't compare the new kids on the block to legendary performers who have been on the road for years no matter how gifted or talented they may be. The latter have the benefit of experience having honed and mastered their craft over many years.

"nic jones,and carthy were innovators and have yet to be surpassed by younger guitarists, as accompanists, where are the young superior 5 string banjoists?"

They've already done it and there's surely no need to reinvent the wheel? I don't know about 5 string banjo players but there's plenty of great young tenor banjo players but, of course, they still owe the late Barney McKenna loads of respect as he was the pioneer as far as Irish tenor banjo was concerned.

As I've said earlier, I'm not suggesting that the young musicians are any better than the "best" of the previous generation but they are certainly much more talented than the average players and singers were back then. I lived through it all too, by the way. Perhaps our view of the situation is clouded slightly by the fact that we've probably(In many cases) improved ourselves during the intervening years. So, we forget how limited a lot of us were back then

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Silas
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 01:19 PM

Well, of course Roger Bannister did the four minute mile - no one can surpass that can they.

As for 5 string banjo players - have you not seen or heard Dan Walsh?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 02:30 PM

I have.
I cannot see that he has anything to offer that roscoe holcomb clarence ashley, earl scruggs,ralph stanley, tom paley,sara grey are you seriously trying to tell me that his playing surpasses the afore mentioned, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6jmsQxfOsgclarence ashleyhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwlOO8RG-oghers tom paley
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGPervSVSys if you think walsh surpasses these you are clearly unmusical

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 02:38 PM

then there is folk blues, please show me some young player who is technically better than blind blake. YOU INSISTT ON BEING SILLY and you bring roger bannister in to this, you clearly miss the point of music it is not a competition like sport.MUSIC IS NOT ABOUT COMPETITION.MUSIC IS NOT ABOUT TIN PAN ALLY STUPID FUCKING FOLK AWARDS

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Silas
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 03:34 PM

It's you and Al who are making it into a competition = all I am doing is trying to get you look at some of the emerging superb talent bthat is out there.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 04:26 PM

no, it was not i that said that todays musicians are better than previous generations, i said there is no evidence to say they are any better or any worse than previous generations of musicians, and no one including you has yet provided evidence that they are.
I do not need you to tell me about young emerging musicians, i can find them easily on you tube, and make up my own mind as to exactly how good they are.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: RTim
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 06:14 PM

This thread will probably run until the 2015 BBC Folk Awards and everyone will be either right and wrong with their views!! Who really cares.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Johnny J
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 06:30 PM

Oops, the last three "Guest" comments were from me. I had to reset my cookies for some reason.

It would probably not be too difficult to show that many more young people are playing traditional music in certain parts of the UK than they were forty or fifty years. In Scotland, especially.

More of them have received some form of tuition whether it be on formal courses or having been mentored by more experienced musicians. While there have always been teachers, it used to be much more common to be self taught as far as most "folkie music" was concerned. Less so on the fiddle and accordion or piping circles, I agree.

I can see for myself that there are a lot of musicians out there who have reached a very high standard. Whether they are as good, better, ground breaking or as innovative as previous generations is another matter.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Terrified Tim
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 06:49 PM

One thing that may be objectively true, is that there are now so many more highly competent young musicians and singers;
that the bar has been raised for rising adolescent stars to even acheive a reasonable level of mediocrity.

- compared to the 1960s and 70s.....

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 06:49 PM

there was a bloke who had both parents who played the trumpet. he had a better trumpet than Louis Armstrong, and he didn't have to play the same old rubbish that Louis Armstrong played - so of course he was bound to be better than Louis Armstrong.

GSS - you amaze me that you can't follow the simplistic logic of a total dickhead.

We are wasting our time.

I bet you never heard the one bout the saxophonist who was born after Charlie Parker ......

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 07:47 PM

Terrified Tim has got my vote again. Now just calm down, dears! You fellas must lead a really miserable life with so much hate and negativism in you souls!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 03:01 AM

'One thing that may be objectively true, is that there are now so many more highly competent young musicians and singers;
that the bar has been raised for rising adolescent stars to even acheive a reasonable level of mediocrity.'

Whilst this is true, there's a hell of a lot more to being a good entertainer than being a highly competent performer, and some of the youngsters still need to learn that.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Johnny J
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 03:58 AM

Youngsters have *always*
had to learn that!

However, it's only rcently that theyy have been under such intense scrutinisation from assorted arm chair and computer screen critics.

;-)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 04:23 AM

I've finally got around to watching this on the Red Button. I'd been looking forward to it, but it was so brutally edited that I'll now have to go and listen to the radio version, if it's still on. The camerawork even managed to miss the leapfrog at the climax of the morris dance.

I thought Mark Radcliffe was truly rubbish as MC, he should leave the jokes to Mike Harding.

With the exception of The Full English, and Martin Simpson & Richard Hawley, I was fairly underwhelmed by most of the live performances - even Bellowhead seemed a bit subdued. In particular I found Anaïs Mitchell and Jefferson Hamer's version of "Willie of Winsbury" simply tedious. And what are Jarvis Cocker's credentials for presenting the lifetime achievement award to Martin Carthy? Nice to see Ciaran Algar and Greg Russell win the Horizon Award - when he was even younger than he is now Ciaran would sometimes come along to our local session with his dad, and it was obvious even then that he is prodigiously talented.

I don't subscribe to the view that these awards are irrelevant. I went to the show in Salford and thoroughly enjoyed it (despite the notorious Don Mclean peformance), so perhaps the televised version didn't get across the atmosphere or quality of the performances. If so, it suggests the BBC isn't really interested enough to do a proper job of it.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: johncharles
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 04:34 AM

Ah! the good old days when summers were warm and skies were blue. All was well in the folk world. We knew what folk was and were certain it could not be bettered.
As we slip quietly into old age we are disturbed by the young guns who challenge our perceptions of our beloved music. We cherish older singers, even though we know in our hearts they are past their sell by dates.
The old are free to live in the past, but we should not try to impose our past on the youngs' future.
john

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 04:41 AM

I wonder why our generation never clicked on that Mississippi John Hurt and Fred Jordan had nothing to teach us. And Ewan MacColl - and Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie - the hours I wasted with outdated rubbish like that.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Jim Martin
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 07:23 AM

The 'Red Button' highlights on a 1 hr continuous loop - seem to be very broken , no continuity!

The stage set was apalling, I would have thought for such a high profile presentation, something a lot more tasteful would have been arranged! The performers must have cringed having to be in front of it!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 07:59 AM

I learned a lot from M john hurt, Seeger and woody guthrie, even last night i sat down and played some M J Hurt songs,even though i am supposed to be a concertina player, i will even state that MJH INFLUENCED THE WAY I APPROACH SONG ACCOMPANIMENT ON ENGLISH CONCERTINA.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Silas
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 09:28 AM

"I do not need you to tell me about young emerging musicians, i can find them easily on you tube, and make up my own mind as to exactly how good they are."

Well, there you go - says it all really.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Johnny J
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 09:35 AM

"i can find them easily on you tube, and make up my own mind as to exactly how good they are."

Well, I guess the same thing can be said about long established singers and concertina players.

:-)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 09:56 AM

Anais Mitchell was nominated last year for the Best Original Song. This year she won the award for Best Traditional song.

She is making a short UK tour with Jefferson Hamer including;

Sunday, March 2, 2014 The Deaf Institute, 135 Grosvenor Street, Manchester M1 7HE

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 11:01 AM

cary on making snide remarks, you cannot produce any evidence for your generalised statemenhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olplcsNuqyg take that and better it

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Johnny J
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 11:35 AM

You'll never hear anything better than Nic Jones in his hey day although his own son can perform all the guitar parts very well indeed.

Of course, there has, is, and will be music which is just as good but *different*.

There are good, bad, exceptional, and mediocre musicians of all ages but I wouldn't choose to dismiss a whole generation of performers on the basis of viewing a few "You Tube" clips.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Terrified Tim
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 11:38 AM

errrmm.. ok.. we understand it's the mudcat norm to completely lose the plot
and skew off on wild tangential irrelevant arguemnts..
but anyone care to remind the rest of us exactly what is the point
of all this bickering about and listing of notable influential artists ????

Anyway, I managed to record the last red button showing of the complete awards show,
and started watching it last night.
So far I've got through the underwhelming 'going through the motions' first half.

[My wife kept herself amused by googling up the date's of birth
of all the venerable awards worthy participants'
and trying to work out how many were related by birth or marriage]

Thankfully, the rather good intermission documentary about the junior folkies bootcamp was a welcome relief..
- all that vibrant energy and enthusiasm..
Now that was a very positive breath of fresh air

Then the start of the 2nd half's dismal showing by Clannad put me to sleep.

So, I'll brace myself to try watching the 2nd half again tonight.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 01:23 PM

i have not dismissed anyone, i disagree with the statement that i think you made which was one of the most stupid generalisations i have ever come across, here..
"In general, today's younger musicians are indeed more knowledgeable and "technically advanced" in musical terms."

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Johnny J
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 01:30 PM

Note the first two words "In general".

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 02:00 PM

all right, in general, the current crop of younger folksingers have selected all the wrong role models and couldn't entertain their adoring parents at their own birthday party. and as for creating a memorable piece of music....not as long as they had a hole in their arse. just in general.....

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: johncharles
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 02:10 PM

The fact that many of the new generation of folk singers are finding wider audiences, and getting better media coverage, suggests they are doing something right. certainly something which many of the older generation can only dream about.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 02:35 PM

I know! They hoover up all the support slots. And you sit there at festivals suffering one bout of boredom after another, Songs with fuck all to say sang by young people with the requisite amount of talent to say it.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 02:37 PM

sorry I forgot I was talking about your kids. The only possible reason for your denial of the facts.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: johncharles
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 02:49 PM

can't sit on my arse, got to go and play at our regular monthly venue.
john

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 05:08 PM

heres some old geezer who never got a folk award who still played folk music, and didnt need to be taught anything, never got a degree was not young but by god he had ithttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV_ZhBcNiQQ

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 05:47 PM

Well, I must say, this thread makes all our atheist threads look like paragons of common sense and virtue! :-)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Johnny J
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 06:52 PM

I notice that some of you talk about "folk *singers*" as opposed to traditional musicians and singers.

The latter scene is very strong up here and the mentors and role models are the best in the business.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 11:27 PM

generally.....

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 03:17 AM

'The latter scene is very strong up here'

Well yes there must be plenty of traditional singers in Heaven.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: johncharles
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 05:01 AM

"I suppose every generation has a conceit of itself which elevates it, in its own opinion, above that which comes after it. ("The Open Door")"
― Margaret Oliphant.
seems appropriate.
john

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: Johnny J
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 05:06 AM

Statler and Waldorf plus a few of their pals are alive and well, it seems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=14njUwJUg1I

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 06:45 AM

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 06:58 AM

dunno hat happened there.

its abit like Paul Simon wrote - you can't be forever blessed.

We're just not living through one of the great periods of folk music at the moment.
what wasit that gave it that historical importance. other generations will analyse it. I suppose some of it had to do with the threat of nuclear nihilation, and th concept of us beig a global village.

MacColl through to McTell, they had to be bohemian and realise that were not living in the same world as their parents. and their outlaw staus gave them a sort of coherence - they were almost like a school o art, the pre-raphaelites, or impessionists.

go to college to learn to be a folksinger. part of the leisure industry well its shite, it isn't their fault. But they've arrived after the match and the crowds gone home.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: GUEST,silas
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 07:02 AM

Hi gss
I have just had time to look at your youtube clips and now realise that you write with your tongue in cheek! ;-) .Well done mate - you had me going for a while!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 07:24 AM

he sounded pretty serious to me. Dick takes the whole thing of music with all the seriousness he he has in his character.

having given a great portion of his life to creating music - I think it genuinely pisses him off to have it dismissed, just because he's the wrong age group.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: GUEST,silas
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 07:37 AM

Really? He is the same age as me. I don't think that anyone is divsmissing the 'old guard' far from it, but I think some people are not prepared to give credit to some awesome singers and musicians that pulate the current folk scene.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: GUEST,Terrified Tim
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 07:50 AM

As this thread now seems more about sensitivity to age discrimination in current UK folk,

here's a rousing late 1960's Western movie theme song by USA folkie GLENN YARBROUGH;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrhv4jUvPq4

- dedicated to all mudcatters my age and older...

Now this song is crying out for a Big Al creative makeover;
I'd genuinely enjoy hearing your pisstake rewrite posted to Youtube.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: johncharles
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 08:11 AM

Silas, I fully expect that you will find out how serious GSS is, in the very near future.
john

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: Jim Martin
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 09:27 AM

Nobody agree with me about the appalling stage props?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: johncharles
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 09:50 AM

Dear Jim, I see what you mean. No doubt an expensive set designer has come up with something "reclaimed rustic" as representative of the music; and cheap as chips.
john

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 10:01 AM

Folk Awards sponsored by Cuprinol ???

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 04:38 PM

"Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: GUEST,silas - PM
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 07:02 AM

Hi gss
I have just had time to look at your youtube clips and now realise that you write with your tongue in cheek! ;-) .Well done mate - you had me going for a while"
Silas, I have no idea what you are talking about, my point [which you seem to be delibrately misunderstanding is that there is no evidence that one generation is better than another].I have not said that there are not good performers in the younger generation, there are. you make a reference to clips of mine,presumably you are trolling, I will select some clips, that i feel are representative of me and explain why I still get booked to do gigs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItcBocS_x_M http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu8CybKCbss&list=PL998B0487CF451E7A&feature=c4-overview-vl
http:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmqpgT0ClK4//www.youtube.com
http:http://www.eafa.org.uk/catalogue/5148 //www.youtube.com/watch?v=boqwtu3xPzU
/watch?v=0lADsPWsoR4
Silas, when you can do half of what i have done and can still do it you might be less of a nonentity in the meantime get yourself a wooden spoon and learn to play that well.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 04:58 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boqwtu3xPzUhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItcBocS_x_M http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmqpgT0ClK4now here are some more facts
The following musicians have been happy to session on my recordings Martin Carthy, JEZ lOWE,Sara Grey, Richard Grainger, THIS DOES NOT MEAN I AM BETTER OR WORSE THAN SOMEONE OF A NEWER GENERATION,it means i have spent years practising and performing Folk Music AND OTHER PROFESSIONAL PERFORMERS ARE HAPPYENOUGH THINK I AM GOOD ENOUGH TO PLAY WITH ON RECORDINGS, THEIR OPINIONS ARE IN MY OPINION MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOURS do you understand THAT anonymous troll.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 05:02 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmqpgT0ClK4

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 05:11 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEKVeI_VD3E&list=PL998B0487CF451E7A

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: Johnny J
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 06:57 PM

Dearie me, I thought this thread was going to be allowed to die gracefully.
:-)

Dick, you do do a good turn and you would be very welcome at our club, I'm sure, although I recall you once stated you had no ambition to play there.

A good few years back in my day job, I was once described as being "quietly confident" in my staff appraisal. I guess we don't all have to be the same.
:-)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 11:49 PM

i disagreed with this remark, as did will fly."In general, today's younger musicians are indeed more knowledgeable and "technically advanced" in musical terms."
my point is that performers should be judged on their merit regardless of age, colour, or sex, I stated that there was no evidence to suggest that young performers were better.
I believe that there is also no evidence to suggest that older generations are better, they may be different,different people may prefer X to Y, That does not mean X is a better performer than y., music is not a competition, it is not sport.
i do believe that all musical performers should be encouraged regardless of age, sex or colour, so I do take exception to youth being given a preference, in the same way I take exception to male performers being given a prefernce, or white people being given a prefernce, opportunities should be given purely on merit.I take exception to stupid generalisations[as did will fly] such as the one made by johnny j, it is typical of so much hype and promotion that is now prevalent on the folk sacene
the result of my posting to this thread has been a personal attack by Silas on my you tube clips.
silas, has misunderstood my statement[which i have clarified more than once].
Silas, when I was at primary school iwas the smallest boy in my class because i was being picked on my parents bought me a punchbag and i was given boxing lessons, i have a very good left hook, please do not ever introduce yourself to me in the flesh.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 12:06 AM

ALL OF THE ABOVE IS WHY i disagree with the folk awards, i have heard lucy ward live,i like her i have heard one recording of bella hardy, i thought it was good.
Johnny J, I never pre judge any club, I decide where I wish to play[if i am lucky enough to be asked], on some occasions i have been asked back many times on others not at all, [that is how the cookie crumbles] there are a few clubs and a few organisers, I have no desire to return to, they are few and far between., but i will not tolerate being insulted by anonymous trolls such as Silas.
Johnny J,I may have a different point of view to you, but you have not been discourteous towards me, why would I refuse work if you offered it to me, I have not been offended by you, NEITHER am I a racist who dislikes Scots. It is true,I am beginning to lack ambition to play anywhere other than places I have played before,I like to feel I am amongst friends.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: GUEST,Selby
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 02:26 AM

When will tickets be available for the boxing. I thought this was a discussion forum not a boxing gym!!!!!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: GUEST,silas
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 02:36 AM

I too thought that this thread had died a natural death. Just to clarify things slightly, when I said I had looked at the youtube clips, I meant that I had looked at the ones you had posted on the thread - not the ones of you performing. Sorry for the misunderstsnding. However, I do think you are irrationally irritated by younger musicians and singers, most of which you admit that you have never seen apart from on youtube.I have not seen you perform live and would not judge you from youtube clips no matter how good or bad they are.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: Johnny J
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 03:53 AM

GSS,

I was only teasing you as I recall you once made a throwaway comment a couple of years back which I treated as light hearted and took in good part at the time.

Please accept my apologies if I have offended you.

As playing at our club, I'm not in a position to invite you through a forum such as this. It wouldn't be appropriate and we are also booked up for well over a year ahead.

However, if you are ever interested enough to contact the club in the future we will consider you seriously. It is usually a committee decision though but your music sounds good enough to me. There are also other clubs in our area and my colleague also runs The Wee Folk Club which tends to have more frequent vacancies.

All the best.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 04:14 AM

I am not irrationally irrtated by any young perfomers, i have seen the young uns, damien barber, lucy ward and other younger performers[younger than me, youth is relative to ones own age] including irish musicians who you have probably not seen,many of whom are very good. i never make judgements on performers other than on the merit of their performance

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: GUEST,silas
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 04:17 AM

Well, tempted as I am to comment further, I am going to lesve it here before it grts nasty again.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: johncharles
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 04:27 AM

GSS have you got a dodgy caps lock key?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: GUEST,Terrified Tim
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 05:01 AM

Boxing ? Now that's actually quite an appropriate perceptive metaphor !

When and how does a great champion boxer know when it's time to gracefully hang up the gloves,
without risking an unbroken winning record and honoured reputation ?

The BBC Awards TV Show organizers really do need to recognise the difference between honouring our cherished elder artists
and risking their public humiliation in ill advised spotlit live performance.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 05:10 AM

I still can't take Don McLean seriously after seeing his performance.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: Silas
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 05:14 AM

Poor old Don - his guitar was hoplessly out of tune, but no matter, nothing could have been worse than the Donovan performance.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 07:41 AM

How can you say such a thing? Donovan invented folk music - he told us so!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 03:52 PM

Sometimes GSS does a special deal on his cds which give a better idea of his considerabl talent. I daresay he would work out a special discount for mudcatters like yourself - whowouldn't want to rush to judgement.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: Silas
Date: 05 Mar 14 - 07:24 AM

Hey Dick and GSS - please check this video out I think you will be impressed. http://vimeo.com/83226522